Kind: captions
Language: en
When you solve a puzzle,
>> that's a good feeling. Yeah.
>> And and there's evolutionary reasons for
why our brains evolved to find pleasure
in solving problems. And I think finding
meaning in in ambiguous things and
finding purpose, it gives us a sense of
this pleasure, this contentment.
[Music]
>> Heather. Yes.
>> Welcome. Thank you so much for coming to
Particles of Thought.
>> Thank you for having me.
>> Yes. I am so excited to talk to you
because you are a neuroscientist and
psychologist. Is that correct?
>> That is.
>> My brain got issues. Right. But before
we get into all my issues, let's start
at the very beginning because when we're
talking about the brain and what you do,
we are talking about consciousness.
>> But I'm not sure I know what that is.
How do you define consciousness?
>> Oh, just easy question right off the
bat. I uh I I have a very simple answer,
but it took us a long time to get to
this. Okay.
>> So, one time they brought together all
the sort of these world experts,
neuroscientists, philosophers,
psychologists. We we went to this
retreat um I think it was in Aspen for a
week and all we had to do was
>> discuss we had whiteboards we had you
know for the whole is just come up with
a definition of consciousness. Oh,
interesting.
>> You know, so I'd be like writing it down
and this agreed. Do you agree? This and
finally after the end of this whole
week,
>> right?
>> What we all agreed on is very simple. It
is first person subjective experience.
>> So does that mean you have awareness?
That's what first person means.
>> First person is only you have access to
it.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. So I don't know that you're
conscious. I'm only have access to my
own awareness, my own and it first of
all, you don't need language for it. You
don't need intelligence. You don't need
a sense of self.
>> It is pure subjective
>> sensation perception. So just simply
experiencing pain.
>> Okay. So does one need a brain? So can a
instrument like that has a neuronet
a creature that has a neuronet versus
one with a brain do they both have
consciousness? It depends on what our
fundamental theory of conscious of the
of what's the basis of consciousness the
material basis of consciousness and
that's something that's fascinated me
for basically my entire career is
>> right now we know I know I have it
>> material basis
>> material basis of consciousness so it's
this subjective experience that we have
and we assume other animals have it
because we have a similar evolutionary
history they act as if they're conscious
if you step on a cat's foot it yelps as
if it's feeling pain
>> right
>> we if you look at the hardware it looks
pretty similar like a little you know
square you know cubic millimeter of
cortex of a monkey will look very
similar to ours. Oh.
>> Um, so we assume other animals have it
and you go how far down the line then it
starts to get questionable but you know
bees, fish, ants.
>> So we know that it's something that has
to do with the nervous system. But could
it be instantiated in other matter,
>> right? Or even non-living matter
>> or non non-living matter, silicon,
whatever. We will only know for sure if
we have an agreed upon fundamental
theory of conscious theory of
consciousness. And there's several out
there. They're leading contenders. We're
we're actually pitting them against each
other experimentally in this big study
that's going on across the world. If say
the integrated information theory of
consciousness wins out IIIT, which says
any system that basically has like a
high degree of integrated information,
>> differentiated integrated information
will have this property of
consciousness.
>> Then it's substrate independent. Meaning
you could have any system. The brain
just happens to be one of these systems.
Right.
>> But theoretically you could extend it
could be a non-organic matter.
>> So what got to me there what stood out
to me is you use the word integrated
because
>> sensor it's not just having sensory data
>> that forms consciousness
right because you know there are simple
single cell life forms that know oh bad
stuff here I need to move that way.
approach, avoid. An amoeba can approach,
avoid.
>> Yeah. But they're not conscious,
>> right? Or it depends on how you define
what we mean by consciousness.
>> But they're there's no evidence of
integrated knowledge on their part.
>> Right. Yeah. Right.
>> So memory doesn't equal consciousness
then.
>> No. Cuz we could have what's called
implicit memory, which is memories that
we don't we're not consciously aware
like motor memory, right? you know,
riding a bicycle, you're not thinking
about it. I mean, if you if you put your
attention on it, then you can make
yourself conscious of it or tying your
shoe. When you're first learning it,
it's explicit. You're very conscious.
You're thinking about it
>> once it becomes habitual.
You no longer need to think about it.
Becomes unconscious memory. So, so
>> memory doesn't and then it moves to
different parts of the brain depending
on if it's explicit or implicit, right?
>> But so memory in itself doesn't have to
be conscious. It's just pure subjective
experience. Philosophers call qualia.
But like the redness of red,
experiencing just seeing the color red,
not it's me experiencing this red or
this red reminds me of the red on the
Chinese flag or whatever,
>> right?
>> It's just pure sensation. So other
animals have this. We just have then
higher levels of complexity on what we
do with that pure sensory information
and that perception.
>> Right. Right. Right. Okay.
>> Yeah. So
>> So simple. I don't know if we understand
what consciousness is anymore, but it it
>> Well, I would say it's like that thing
that for you, for us, yes. What you
experience when you first wake up in the
morning and
>> experience anything, your first
sensations, it's everything we
experience until we go into a deep
dreamless sleep.
>> Um, but most of what's happening in our
brain is happening outside of awareness.
We're only conscious of very little bit
because it takes a lot of processing to
bring things into consciousness. Most
things are happening outside of
awareness.
>> Right. Right.
>> But it's subjective. I only And when we
test people, I have to ask you, did you
see this or not? Were you aware of this
or not? And that's where it becomes
difficult with animals. We have to come
up with tricks on how to
>> test it experimentally or a person in a
coma if they're conscious or not.
>> Well, that's what I was going to get. Is
there a way to um There are different
states of unconsciousness. You could be
asleep. You could be a nesticized. You
could be in a coma.
>> So, in comparison to the awake brain?
Yes. Yes. Or what even about even
altered brain states if you're on some
sort of hallucinogenic, right? Do you
see
you know
>> gradations? Okay. So, so if you think of
it like there's um you know you think of
it like this scale there's there's
awakeness and awareness. Okay.
>> So
>> the brain needs to be fully awake to be
aware of anything. So there is different
levels of
>> wait a minute wait a minute I
as an example. Okay.
>> When I was very very young, I was a bed
wetter.
>> Okay.
>> Then I realized, oh, if I'm having a
dream that I'm about to go, I need to
wake up. And I developed the ability to
do that. So, it's like I had
consciousness while I was unconscious.
>> But here's the thing. When you're
dreaming,
>> yeah,
>> we tend to be in this sort of REM sleep
stage, which when you look at the brain
activation, looks like an awake brain.
>> So, when you're conscious in your
dreams, you're you're asleep, but you're
aware. So, there's there's Dreams are
kind of an anomaly. So if you're looking
at this scale of how awake the brain, so
you have like, you know, fully awake,
then you have different stages, you
know, sleep, coma, this and that, then
you have how aware you are,
>> right?
>> But dreams are really interesting
because they're outside of this like
line here because it's you're asleep,
but you're aware,
>> right? And that's because the brain's in
this interesting state where your
prefrontal cortex is kind of not is is
you know decreasing activation but your
your when you look at the activation of
the brain it looks as almost like the
awake brain in terms of EEG.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> So it's a unique state but you are
conscious when you're dreaming that's
consciousness even though you're asleep.
So yeah it's not a onetoone correlation.
>> Right. Right. Um but but we assume that
you have to kind of be fully awake
outside of certain anomal like dreaming
>> to be aware of anything and then we
usually when we're testing consciousness
we say in a fully awake person not in a
coma not under anesthesia
>> do you see it or not are you conscious
of it or not right
>> but then you have different levels of
consciousness in terms of sleep of you
know awakeness let's call it
>> consciousness is related to what you're
p putting your attention on
>> not necessarily so there's studies that
show there's actually there can be a
dissociation between attention and
consciousness.
So usually they coincide with one
another but there are ways in which we
can tease them apart where you can be
have attention separate from
consciousness
>> which gets us into the weeds. God
>> so sometimes though we equate
consciousness with awareness. We'll say
awareness but attention and
consciousness um are two different
things. Right. Well, I guess what I was
getting at is a lot could be going on
around you, but if you don't pay
attention, you're going to be unaware,
right?
>> Usually, yeah,
>> your brain is like filtering or
something,
>> right? That like sort of, you know,
you're at a cocktail party and you're
talk I'm talking to you,
>> but suddenly I my brain hears my name
over there in this conversation.
Suddenly, I'm looking at you, whatever,
but I'm my attention, my auditory
attention is here, and now I'm tuning
into what they're saying over there. And
you can refocus your attention, right?
So certain things grab your brain's
attention. Change does novelty does your
brain some, you know, word that might be
significant to you
>> and you shift your awareness.
>> Yeah. And your attention
>> and in preparing for uh chatting with
you today, I looked up, you know, some
of the your your previous interviews and
I saw this notion of a perception box.
>> Yes.
>> Right.
>> Yeah.
>> And it really kind of, you know, shook
me. And let me tell you why. Because as
a scientist myself
studying reality, I run up on these
points where I'm I make discoveries
like, oh, time ain't time,
>> right? And I end up at places where I'm
like, oh, do I even exist? And now it's
almost like you're telling me that my
perception of the world in some ways it
seems it's obvious but this break apart
the idea of a perception box and how
that determines one's experience of and
defines one's experience of reality and
ultimately does that mean reality is
reality if it's a perception box
dependent thing. So we we perceive
reality or the world like maybe there
are fundamental objective truths out
there. I think the best way to get to
them is like through the scientific
method because we're all inherently
biased because we are perceiving
reality. It's being actually constructed
for us by this filter of the brain.
>> Okay.
>> Each one of our brains is different. So
it's like a thumbrint, right? Each brain
has its own unique neural, you know,
setup, architecture, and
>> and history.
>> Yeah. your your exactly what you've been
exposed to, the way your brain has
developed over your lifetime, your
genetic predispositions. So, we're all
there's a lot of similarities, but
there's also definitely we're each
unique in terms of our brain.
>> So, given that our organ that helps us
perceive the world is different. We all
are seeing the world in slightly
different ways depending on our history
and our genetics. And so the brain is
constructing it's there's not it's dark
in there, right? It's it's dark.
>> That is such a brilliant Well, but I
once heard someone say that your teeth
are the only part of the skeleton that
you see on the outside. Your eyeballs
are the only part of the brain that you
see on the outside.
>> Right. Right. Right. Cuz there's Right.
But but they're really just nerve
endings,
>> you know? That's all it is. And it's a
series of ones and zeros, you know. It's
just information coming into this
machine that doesn't actually see
anything.
>> So the signals it takes as input
>> are from the ears, from the eyes, from
the
>> five senses. Yeah.
>> And and they're like chemical and uh
Yeah. Exactly. electrical and chemical
signals. Okay. Then our brain constructs
this into a
>> subjective perception. But our
perception does not correlate one to one
with reality with objective reality. So
>> let's let's define the word perception
here.
>> Okay. What how we how oh that's
difficult. That's harder to define.
>> Just receive sensory data.
>> You're receiving sensory data and then
you're forming a a sort of percept image
or a like a sound. The way we construct
how we're either seeing or hearing the
world, let's say, or feeling it. And
it's constructed by the brain like like
it's it's sort of making a movie of what
it thinks is happening out there based
on this data
>> and our our biases. So if you think of
it like this, you have this sort of
stream of information coming in from our
our all of our sensory organs. Yeah.
>> So that's coming in one way. Then we
have this top- down processing of what
we expect things to be based on our
history and what we've seen before and
and because we can't look take each
individual case each as something new.
It would be too much processing, right?
So we have heristics that we use and
expectations and where that data coming
in meets with our expectations. That's
where we form
>> our we construct our reality, our sense
of what's happening out there.
>> And it's all slightly different for each
person. So what you that's why two
different people can have completely
different belief systems and views of
the world and see things in completely
different ways based on what they expect
to see, what they want to see, what
their biases are, and what's how they're
processing the information coming in
>> and how they voted in the last election.
>> That's exactly right.
Which determines everything.
>> That determines everything in America.
Yeah.
>> But so that's we're seeing the world
through our own perception box, right?
And everyone really believes theirs is
really real. But certain things,
psychedelic drugs, meditation, flow
states can expand our perception box. So
we can have maybe we're all living in
these tiny boxes. If we can widen it, we
can understand other perspectives or see
things in a slightly different way.
>> Yeah. Oh, I I you know, I've experienced
this personally because I lived in um
the deep south
>> before in the 20th century, right, in a
very rural area and um I didn't have
access to much of humanity, right? It
was it was, you know, traditional
populations in that location. And I
leave there and go to graduate school in
the San Francisco Bay area,
>> right?
>> Dramatic shift.
>> The grocery store is different, right?
you know, every everything is uh new.
And uh I learned that a lot of the
narratives that I had in my mind of the
way the world worked, how the world was
going to interact with me was were
completely gone. I mean, were completely
wrong. But I was perceiving them from
that. You know, the guy I was at age 24
stepping into the Bay Area, the guy I am
now who's now been to countries all over
the world, you know, every state but
three,
>> very different.
>> Yeah. And you wouldn't know it though
when this a similar thing happened with
me. you know, I grew up in New York and
I mean, which is a very diverse, you
know, place. But then
>> when I moved to go to the UK, I went I
studied abroad and then went to graduate
school and then I traveled around Europe
and then I start and suddenly I had this
whole other perspective and I viewed
America differently and whatever because
it used to be like, okay, and also
within America, I'm the North, you're
the South, we're very different, but
then when we're over there, oh, we're
all the same, they're, you know,
>> and it brought into your perspective.
It's a really good and I think everybody
should try to get out of their own, you
know,
>> right? Yeah.
>> comfort zone.
>> Well, at least you can and then I think
you get closer to the truth of things.
>> Yes.
>> You know, it it's standard observational
science that the error in your
measurement
is dependent upon the number of
measurements you make. The more you
make, the more accurate you become.
Right? So the more you observe humanity
in its different environments, in its
different manifestations, the better you
understand people. And I came to the
conclusion we're all the same.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, look, you know what?
When you look inside, like look at a
brain.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> You can't tell what nationality, what
race, what whatever. It looks pretty
much the same. You can tell a lot of the
time. You can tell male, female. There's
certain characteristics, but outside of
that, you know, everyone's brain is
looking the same on the inside.
>> Yeah. What you saying earlier is that,
you know, if you have a slice of brain,
you can't tell whether it's human or
even another species.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> So, it's like we're all much more
similar than we think. Yeah.
>> So, how does our personality maintain
itself? Is it is it there is there some
underlying activity that you know when
we're awake it it establishes our
personality and you know
>> how how does this human
>> expression happen
>> you know I did I actually did a lot of
research um earlier on on personality I
was really interested in this and like
what's the neural basis of personality
what's interesting is is personality is
very consistent across life like you see
there's there's some minor variations as
you get older you get there's some
changes But in general, you take a a
baby who's and you look at their
temperament,
>> you can pretty much predict their kind
of personality throughout life like and
I can tell you this even from being a
mother.
>> I have two children, you know, in
uterero feeling them and the way they
acted and whatever, they were very
different. You know, one was much more
active, one was more active at night,
the other and like this and the way the
other temperaments as babies and then,
you know, it really carries through. So,
so I really think what we call
personality is is really and the way
it's kind of defined is a consistent way
of behaving across different
environments and settings. So that we're
looking for at personality is what is
consistent about you across time, right?
And that I think is a huge genetic
component.
>> But then our brains are living evolving
creatures, let's say. They're never it's
always changing. This is why I we can
get into this conversation. you know why
AI in its current form I don't think is
going to be conscious or we we'd have to
build a neuromorphic computer that
changes with inputs constantly because
our brain is always changing till the
day you die
>> it is changing now it's like a piece of
clay it's really malleable early on and
it starts to harden and get stiffer and
harder to mold but it's always changing
>> okay
>> so we have these basic let's say our our
fundamental roots of who we are
>> our core personality you know you're a
grumpy person you're what you tend to be
happy golucky as a baby you're going to
tend to eat throughout life. And there's
even studies that show, you know, if you
win the lottery,
>> you will maybe if let's say you're
you're a grumpy sad person, you'll get a
blip of happiness and you go right back
to where you were before. And by the
way, also if some tragedy happens, you
lose your legs. You can no longer walk.
>> You're you're happy golucky person. You
get a blip of down and then you become
that person again. So even regardless
of, you know, very impactful things that
can happen in your life, personally
stays consistent. But that being said,
>> yeah,
>> a lot of change and learning goes on
within those. So there I think there's
certain boundaries that we're in that
are that genetics set, but within that
we can either be at one end or the other
depending on our experiences. But like
if you're an anxious person, you're
never going to be the most relaxed
person in the room, but if I'm treating
you as a patient, I this is your
boundaries. I can get you from here to
here, but I'm never going to get you
over to here because there's certain
limitations.
>> I see. Wow. Wow. So that says a lot
about parenting.
>> Oh yeah.
>> You're not the molder of your children.
A lot of it is already uh established
before
>> while they're even still inside. And the
research shows if you look at, you know,
Steven Pinker and he's written a lot
about this and the blank slate that
>> parents it's very hard even as a parent
myself it's it's so counterintuitive but
really
>> there's not unless it's extremes like
extreme abuse or something then that can
have an impact. But within the sort of
normal bounds
>> what you do as a parent doesn't have
that much impact.
>> Friends do. So what you can do as a
parent is make sure you get them in a
place that might be that they're going
to be with the right kind of peers that
you want to have an influence on them
>> so their peers influence them their
their friends parents can influence them
socially and they'll be more likely to
listen to them.
>> Yeah.
>> So you can do as a parent is put them in
a right environment.
>> Right.
>> But all this stuff that we think is
having such a huge impact isn't. And
actually as you get older the um
influence of genetics becomes stronger
>> really. has more of an impact your
genetics as you get older.
>> Um, so it's like, you know, just be a a
kind, loving, do what you can, but don't
so either one, you don't, it's great
because you don't get to blame yourself
for when, you know,
it's not your fault, but also you don't
get to take all the credit, you know,
when they do extraordinary things.
>> Yeah. Yeah. They are their own little
human there.
>> Yes. You help them. I I see my children
as I'm just there to help nurture them,
help them become who they're supposed to
be.
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Let's play a little game.
>> Okay.
>> And the game we're going to play is
What's My Brain Doing?
>> Okay.
>> All right.
>> Yes.
>> I'm having deja vu.
>> Oh, that's a hard one.
>> Oh,
>> damn it. Deja Vu. Okay.
>> Is my brain quantum entangled with my
future self?
>> No.
>> Okay.
>> That I wouldn't go that far. I mean, you
never know. I don't know.
>> You never know, right?
astrophys, you know, at a distance,
whatever,
>> entanglement. But what I think is going
on is that um
>> we have a sense, we have a part of our
brain that gives a sense of familiarity,
right?
>> Something feels familiar to us.
>> Oh,
>> and I think it's a little sometimes our
brain does these little like missteps or
misfires to things. So, you might walk
into a room and you suddenly get this
sense of this feels familiar to me. It
feels like I've been here before, you
know, and so your brain then
reconstructs the reality. It's trying to
make sense of it.
>> Yeah.
>> And then you sort of get this feeling of
deja vu. Oh, I've been here before. I've
seen this before.
>> You know, and even we can mess around
with people's time perception and I did
a lot of research on during my PhD about
our what's the neural basis of time
perception? How do we perceive time? And
there's a neural different we can link
it to certain you know and people have
certain brain damage. they perceive time
differently or certain psychiatric
illnesses. So we can link it to
underlying neural coralates and we can
also play around with when a person
perceives that something happened in
time. So I can have something happen to
you and then we do something TMS,
transcranial magnetic stimulation, put a
little magnet here, zap you a little and
suddenly you're like, "Oh no, it
happened over here." You
>> can stimulate my brain to change the
place in time where
>> where you feel things happen and also
your sense of agency. How much control
did I have over that movement? And so
our brains are tricky because we're also
constructing our sense of time. So I
think there's like sort of these little
trip wires in the brain where things you
know there are little flaws in the
matrix like that's what illusions are
right when we discovered the little
holes in the brain is constructing
things but it's not perfect and when
things don't make sense like we I say
you know brain is a meaning maker
machine. It wants to make meaning out of
things. So you walk into a room suddenly
things feel familiar. You're like then
it starts to construct a new reality.
Oh, I must have been here before.
>> Is there a novelty center as well? Like
you said, there's a familiarity center.
There's
>> I mean, I wouldn't I hesitate to call
things centers. I'd say circuit circuit.
Yeah. But yeah, of of course um novelty.
I mean, our dopamine,
>> yes,
>> is released with novelty. Our brain
loves novelty because it's important for
us to attend to things that are novel
because that could be something
dangerous. It could be, you know, it
says like, "Hey, pay attention to this
thing,
>> right?" So um it's more related to
attending to things but novelty
sometimes when it's associated with
pleasure as well and you get nuclear
circumbent activation we tend to like
novelty
>> because it evolutionarily it makes sense
to attend to things that are novel for
better chances to survive. Right.
>> Right. Right. Right. Okay. So back to
what's my brain doing?
>> Okay.
>> Suppose I'm watching something or I
listen to something particularly moving
and I get goosebumps.
>> Yeah.
>> What's happening? So that that is an
interesting thing and I I think um it
has to do with this feeling of sometimes
with awe, this sense of awe. Yeah.
>> Right. Where you hear a piece of music,
you see a vista, you have some emotional
something emotional that triggers you.
It's very
>> much related to like a brain stem. Um
it's lower in the brain. It's a very
physiologic reaction that we something
triggers us maybe emotionally and then
it triggers this this
>> nervous system response.
>> Yeah.
>> It's an automatic response just like
crying is you know this auto automatic
nervous autonomic nervous system
response where
>> oh really
>> it's almost like you don't have you
don't have control over it
>> but it can be triggered by different
emotional experiences.
>> Interesting. You know sometimes we have
questions of what do other animals think
or feel.
>> So is it the case that those fundamental
basal feelings like awe
>> what leads us to cry
manifest similarly in other mammals or
you know does it have to be other
primates or
>> I do think that other animals have basic
sensations like this but we interpret
them differently. So and that for
example you know you can have a certain
physiologic sensation in you like you
feel butterflies in your stomach or
something and then once we get that
sensation then our higher cortices
prefrontal cortex starts to interpret
that as either oh I'm really anxious
about something or I'm really nervous or
I'm really excited about this thing and
we could reinterpret the same
physiologic sensation in different ways
>> and so other animals might just have
sensations and not interpret them so
they they don't sort of elevate them to
these other to to you know you might
start feeling some sensation of crying
then you start thinking of oh my god I'm
thinking of my grandmother or whatever
and then it becomes more and more and
more and it kind of
>> you know elevates it so I think other
animals have different feelings but they
don't have these more complex feelings
that we have like like envy and you know
jealousy or lust and because they don't
also can't think that far into the
future they don't have as involved
prefrontal cortex which thinks about the
future right so Anxiety is really a very
human emotion because it's about fear of
something bad happening in the future.
Animals have fear other animals,
>> but not so much anxiety here now.
>> Yes. It's the things that are happening
right now, but not like, oh my god, in
two days I'm going to have this exam or
I'm going to have so they don't have
these more complex emotions that we
have. But there's these beautiful images
like, you know, with with um Jane
Goodall, you know, and there's these
apes looking out at the vista and it
looks as if they're, you know,
>> oh, really? They're experiencing the
beauty and
>> the beauty or animals like like Yak
Pangep um was someone you know a
colleague I knew for a long time. He
unfortunately passed away but he was
talked about these
>> rats that would like tickle you can
tickle the rats and they would laugh. He
recorded their like laughter and they
would play and they would you know so
they're they're experiencing things you
know like joy. Um but it's just very
much in the moment.
>> Right. Right. Wow. That is something.
What about when, for example, I leave my
keys in the refrigerator?
What has my brain done?
>> I think you need to come to my office.
>> Oh, you ain't heard nothing yet. We Oh,
boy. I
>> Do I need treatment?
>> Um,
>> so misplacing objects.
>> Misplacing objects. I walk into a room,
I forget what my thought was. You know,
these forgetful me or I'm looking for my
keys and they're in my hand the whole
time,
>> right? Yes.
>> Yeah. So various reasons, not one answer
for everything, but the the sort of
elements that seem to be involved are
are attention. So you might have had an
intent to go into a room,
>> right? And then your first of all, your
mind is wandering. You know, you're
think then you start thinking about
what's my grocery list? Oh, what's the
thing I got to do later? Whatever. So
now you that memory of why you went in
the room slipped away. you knew there
was a purpose of going in there but you
had moved on to other things.
>> Yeah. My brain started thinking about
something else that's why. Yeah.
>> And then suddenly you're like why am I
why am I here or you know so a lot of it
to do with with attention and memory and
there's different parts of the brain
that do like like the dorsal prefrontal
cortex has to do with working memory. So
that's like
>> um you know when you're trying to
remember like four four digits seven
digits a number something you got to
keep it on saying it over and over
again. But then when you have something
in more long-term memory, it get moves
over to the hippocampus.
>> Oh,
>> but usually these things like your keys,
where you're putting them, whatever,
that's the kind of working short-term
memory. And if you don't stay attending
to like what you're doing or focus on
where your keys are, it's going to slip
away cuz your mind starts attending
internally to other things.
>> Especially people with ADHD, it becomes
even harder. Um and then yeah, of course
with age there's normal aging brain that
where you know memory starts to get not
as sharp and
>> but so if you really want to remember
where your keys are or whatever you have
to stay focused on that. So if you're
like I know I'm going in this room and
keep remembering why you're going in the
room I'm going to get my keys get my key
the second you go off that you're it's
done. You're done. I know that I tell I
tell people that when I work with them.
I was like, "Listen, if we say
>> if we come up with a task for me, make
sure you see me, put it in my calendar
right
>> before."
>> And I always say this like, "Do it now.
Write it down." Absolutely. You think
you're going to remember, you're not
going to remember. You're not. Yeah. I
know I'm not. Yeah. So, I always tell my
students, never take work out of the
room. If you if you can avoid it, don't
take work out of the room. Get it done.
>> Do it now. And And if not, just write
it. Write it down. Write it down. Don't
trust your brain that much.
>> Now what? Let's talk about drugs. So
>> Oh yeah.
>> What happens you know in in for example
when someone takes hallucinogenics
>> uh you know it's kind of like dreaming
because your brain has created stuff
that's not happening in actual reality,
right?
>> Uh but you're awake.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah.
>> It's so fascinating. So it it depends on
the on the drug. Each drug
>> that's why I said hallucinogenics to
separate it from say marijuana,
>> right? Yeah.
>> So, let's talk about psilocybin, which
is the ingredient in shrooms. Yeah.
Psychedelic ingredient mushrooms. That's
a cool one. Um,
>> we've done neuroiming studies to look at
what's happening in the brain when
people are in these states
>> and it's fascinating because what it
seems to be is that I wouldn't say
you're at a some people used to say it's
a higher level of consciousness. No,
there's no higher or lower. It's either
you're conscious or you're not.
>> But it's a different state of
consciousness. So, we have different
states of consciousness. We're
experiencing the world in different
ways. Now, normally in a in a
non-drugged, healthy, awake brain,
>> you're getting all this information.
It's actually chaos. And then our brain
has all these constraints to make it
have a clear accurate picture, right?
But you take somebody with like
schizophrenia or or another, you know,
mental health disorders with psychosis,
they're starts they're not constructing
the the reality in a constrained way. It
becomes an unconstrained brain. If your
brain is in that state all the time,
that's not a good state to be in because
you can't navigate the world. You need
to be able to filter out the sort of
non-essential information and construct
your this reality we talk about
>> because you know there is that
phenomenon and in psychedelics where
you're like oh that cloud looks like a
dragon and then it becomes a dragon
>> right because the constraints are no
longer there. So what we see in the
brain is that it becomes like an
unconstrained brain temporarily. Now I
guess like a schizophrenic is in that
state all the time. That's not healthy,
right? But if you temporarily the
prefrontal cortex is kind of like the
executive of the brain and it's kind of
constraining things and making things
make sense, like making meaning out of
it.
>> You take that filter off, you know, you
it kind of your brain starts firing in a
different way when you're on these
psychedelics and it becomes
unconstrained, which is great because
anything goes creativity, you're
thinking new thoughts, you're getting to
access unconscious things. Like
>> it's it's it's a lovely state to be in
temporarily, but then you do want to go
back to that like more constrained brain
state. But when you're in that state,
people, you know, they lose their sense
of self, right? They be feel one with
everything. The boundary between self
and other gets sort of dissolved.
>> Oh, interesting.
>> People associate that with very positive
experience, right? You feel like there's
things greater than you. So fear of
death starts to go away, you know,
especially the more intense like the
fiveme whatever really like the toad the
drug. Yeah. Yeah, people go shoot off
into space, you know, they're like, I
died and came back, but they lose their
fear of death
>> because it becomes not about you and
your ego and this construct cuz who we
are is a construct of our brain, right?
>> You know, we're making up our who I'm
this person, whatever. So, that kind of
dissolves and you get this openness. Um,
and so we're starting to understand
what's happening at the neural basis and
it's being used now to help treat people
with psychiatric illnesses like um,
obsessivecompulsive disorder and
depression and um, PTSD like with MDMA
>> to help people get into these other
brain states to help resolve some of the
issues that they're can't when they get
locked into these negative brain states
or negative um, thought patterns
>> that which reminds me there is a phrase
I've used for a long time to talk about
how I deal with my own brain and I call
it mental engineering.
And what that is is for me what I say to
myself to get my self to do what I need
myself to do given the way my brain is
operating on its own, right? I got to
sort of retrain it. So the classic
example I give is flying, right? You
know, I started flying relatively late
in life, you know,
>> in my early 30s.
>> Flying a plane or being a plane being
being a pastor in a plane. Yeah. And by
the time I did that, you know, I had
taken fluid dynamics as a physicist. I
knew Bernie's equation. I understand how
lift works.
>> But when I get up tens of thousands of
feet in the air and look down, I'm like,
"This ain't right."
>> Right.
>> I don't feel comfortable. Right. And so,
one of the things I did at that time,
there was a reality show about phobias.
And I remember one of the uh therapists
telling the person just because you
imagine something doesn't mean it's
going to happen. And so I started to say
that to myself, right? Like oh just
because you imagine, right? And so I I I
did that. Another thing is, you know,
for example, when I um was early in my
career, I was starting from behind. I
wasn't, you know, well educated and I
had to work really hard, right? And so I
would tell myself these stories like,
"Oh, while they're sleeping, I'm
working. And while they're partying, I'm
working, you know, and and and uh
>> you know, and and these stories I tell
myself to engineer my my mind.
>> Yeah.
>> Into
ignoring fear, ignoring pain,
>> things that would normally make me stop
or prevent me from doing what I want to
do. I tell myself stories.
>> So, how plastic is the brain? Um,
there's a few things there and we can
talk about, you know, free will and how
much control do we really have, but
>> there is that,
>> but but I love this kind of way you've
put it. It's kind of an analogy. What
did you call it? Mental engineering.
>> Yeah.
>> It it's really that's CBT. It's
cognitive behavioral therapy.
>> Oh.
>> Because that's phrase.
>> What we're trying to do in therapy is
that your pain, let's just say, or your
fear
>> is a construct of your mind. It's of
your own making. You know, people put
themselves into their own cage, right?
>> And if you can somehow re-engineer or
change some of those thought patterns,
>> you can change how you feel. You can
change how you behave cuz there's, you
know, the thoughts, the feelings, and
the behavior, right?
>> And they're all, you know,
interconnected. So, you can make change
in any one of those. You can change your
behavior. I say to you, go on planes no
matter what. And over time, your brain
will realize nothing bad happens. And
then you'll the fear will go away.
>> Hopefully, you hopefully you can change
your thoughts. But if I tell you if you
have a fear of flying and everything
>> I tell you about it's safe, it's all the
statistics, whatever, that's not going
to change your fear. You actually
actually have to do it. You have to
>> do it to train your brain. It's like if
I tell you everything about how to do
abs.
>> Information isn't going to change
behavior.
>> No, you have to actually do it and then
your brain sees, oh, nothing bad
happened. I'm going to change my
practice. You got to practice. And then
you also can work on the the thought
patterns. But perception can change our
reality. So if you can shift your
perception like there's you know um
Carol Dws a lot about this growth
mindset you know versus right and if you
tell yourself I can't do it I'm never
going to do then you're not going to do
it
>> right. Exactly.
>> If you say you can do anything I
remember my dad gave me advice when I
was younger. It always stuck with me. It
was the simplest thing but he was just
like never stop yourself.
>> You keep going until somebody else stops
you. And even then you keep going,
right? Because if you stop yourself and
say, "I can't do it." Then you'll
definitely not get anywhere.
>> That's right.
>> You go until somebody stops you and even
then you keep going. Never, you know, be
self-limiting.
>> Right. Right.
>> And because we can be our own worst
enemies.
>> So this idea that we can reconstruct. So
in terms of how plastic we
>> Let me let me vibe with you on that a
couple times. There's two things. one
>> when I was a graduate student and I had
be got over the hurdles and I saw that
there were others younger than me
struggling right my advice to them was
because what I saw happening is that you
know you feel so dejected you feel so
like less than you quit so my advice to
students was don't quit let them kick
you out
>> right
>> because they never do for the most part
right and then the the the other thing
that comes to mind is someone said this
to me and they misqued it, but but the
way I like the way they said it to me,
>> I like it better than the original
quote. And the thing is is um the
statement goes,
if you think you can do something,
you're probably right. If you think you
can't do something, you're definitely
right.
>> Right. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. You're
definitely not going to get anywhere if
you tell yourself you can't do it. If
you tell yourself you can, there might
be a chance you can do it,
>> right?
>> Why not? Everybody never like I don't
know you know Obama like oh I'm going to
be president like people what that's
ridiculous
>> I didn't see that one coming.
>> No
but you keep telling yourself I can do
this I can do it and then you know what
why can't you
>> why can't you right
>> you know you start seeing people at the
top. You're like that's the person at
the top. I thought there was a you know
>> well I it doesn't look that way till you
when you're in your 20s and your 30s.
Once you get older you're like they're
idiots.
>> Nobody knows anything.
>> Exactly. I I actually there was a point
when I was like, wait, I'm the expert,
>> right?
>> I know the feeling. Yeah.
>> Yeah. But it's like, you know,
>> I like to say, you know, back in the
day, we had, you know, I'm a physicist,
right? We had Einstein, Drack, Paulie.
Today, it's us, me and Debbie and David,
right?
>> Humanity is doomed,
>> right? You're like, wait, we're in
charge now. What happened? But the but
to your question of like how plastic are
we? How changeable are we? I do feel
>> and are there methods? That's the other
thing.
>> Yes. I think everybody is capable of
change as I said before with the certain
constraints of our biology right
>> what about introducing the psychedelics
into these
>> cognitive behavioral therapies
>> that's a huge game changer you know
someone I've been in the field of you
know neuroscience and and and psychiatry
and research for for you know decades
and there hasn't been a fundamental
shift in say treatment of psychiatric
illnesses in terms of
psychopharmarmacology for 50 years I
mean it's all okay you have ss selective
seroton reuptake inhibitors that are
affecting the serotonin receptors
>> and they're all like variations on a
theme. we're gonna oh we're going to
slightly do this other receptor now
we're going to do that but it's just
playing around with different
combinations of drugs then you have this
psychedelic psychotherapy which is a
huge shift I mean I've seen people
who've you know tried everything they
depressed they do you know all sorts of
we do deep brain stimulation you know
you have to go in and plant electrodes
that's neurosurgery right that's there's
some risks involved there instead you
can have these people have fundamental
shifts in in in their symptomology with
you know ketamine right now is FDA
approved. So, a lot of patients are
doing ketamine.
>> What is the out what is it? You know, I
I've heard ketamine talked about a lot
recently in therapy. Can you describe
that for us?
>> It's amazing. I mean, look, it's not
like a panacea. It's not like everyone
who does it is going to get 100% better,
right?
>> But um for a certain population of
people who have tried everything, it
really can help with say depression.
They give it now in psychiatric in the
ER for people who are actively suicidal.
It can actually just like you give it
and it takes away the suicidality like
in the moment for people. So it's very
impactful and again it's not
100% have some serotonin and dopamine.
>> So there's this glutamaturgic theory of
depression. So everybody was so focused
on serotonin and the serotonin receptors
and then there be what about the
glutamaturgic system and that seems to
also be involved and ketamine is
interacting with another it's a neur
another neurotransmitter.
>> Okay. It's another chemical in the
brain. Yes, another chemical in the
brain. Um, but what we're really trying
to understand is is it and this is I
think with all the psychedelics. So
there's you have ketamine for depression
and anxiety. You have you know
psilocybin also for anxiety and
depression, MDMA for PTSD. We're trying
to understand is it the chemical
interactions of the drug itself in the
brain that's making these changes or is
it actually the psychological experience
that people are having
>> that are having these because what the
thing is with SSRI you have to take them
every day right they have to be in your
system to have an impact and when they
wear off they're off and you take them
again the next day these you can do a
couple of experiences and then it has a
fundamental shift that lasts and we
think that for example psilocybin
increases the brain neuroplasticity. So
you become more open and more open to
suggestion. So when you do that in
conjunction with therapy, it's not just
like, hey, go out and party and do
mushrooms, but when you take them with
the therapist that it makes the therapy
more stick sticky.
>> Well, that's what I was going to ask.
Does the setting matter and is there and
is the setting stage for the therapeutic
effect?
>> Yes. So there's a lot of people who are
talking about the set and setting and
that there's certain settings that have
more of an impact. How however this the
uh another colleague my Stanford did
this amazing study he wanted to look at
the effects of ketamine without the
psychological effects just the chemical
effects so he's an anesthesiologist so
what he did he took people with
depression when they were going under
surgery gave them ketamine while they
were under anesthesia
and then saw if it had an impact so they
didn't consciously know
>> they didn't consciously experience the
ketamine experience yes but they did
have the ketamine chemical
>> yes exactly and what he found which was
interesting
is that it had a significant impact if
the people thought they had the
ketamine. So it was a placebo effect
when the people believed they really had
the ketamine there. Actually depression
got better.
>> So it might just be that this having
this you someone tells you look you're
going to go in and have this amazing
experience. It's going to fundamentally
shift your perception is changing.
>> Holy cow.
>> And that is might be a large part of it
is this placebo effect. you have this
amazing psychedelic experience and then
you're like,
>> you know, and so we we still don't fully
know
>> what it is. But a lot of my patients are
in ketamine treatment and they report a
really positive experiences.
>> So what does this say? Does this say
that our thoughts are um just chemicals,
right? Is is is we're all just
>> I mean this is
>> a chemical reaction with a chemical
reaction. We are our brains. Yeah. You
know, and I wouldn't say they're just
that, you know, we still don't really
understand this leap from neurochemicals
and electrical impulses, you know,
firing around in our brain
>> um and our subjective experience. And
that, you know, Dave Charmers, the
philosopher, calls this the the the hard
problem of consciousness. The easy
problem is if we could map every thought
you have and every experience to the
specific set of neurons firing in your
brain that like the onetoone
correlation. Yeah,
>> that's actually a really hard problem.
But ultimately we could theoretically do
that at some point. But even if we did
that, I mapped every thought you have to
the exact neural underpinnings.
Why is it that those neurochemicals
firing around create this subjective
experience of a thought and that's the
that's the you know million-dollar
question and that's the hard problem and
we might never know
>> what can you like when I think about an
animal like an octopus that has a more
distributed set of neurons
>> you know and and I think about the fact
of you know we have this neuronal
concentration this condensation we call
our brain is that even necessary right
is it
>> is you know I was thinking a while ago
about like uh you know why is the head
the head?
>> Oh yeah.
It's not like my son. He's eight. He's
mommy.
>> Why is the head the head?
>> Well, I thought it's like oh here's all
the sensors and they put the processor
close to the the sensors close to the
processor. That's why we have a head.
Right.
>> Right. Yeah. No, I mean I I never I was
never thought about that.
>> Yeah. But then I learned about an
octopus. They're like, "Oh, they got
neurons all through their bodies." And
then it's like, oh, there's a brain in
the belly, right? There's a stomach.
>> We have more serotonin receptors in our
stomach than we do in our brain. But
it's how they're connected.
>> It's how they're connected.
>> But but but with an octopus is really
interesting cuz they are very
intelligent. It's almost like they're
aliens. I I come from another planet
>> because they evolved on a different
line, right? Another different
>> They're mollisks.
>> Yes.
You know,
>> so I mean it's so I don't you know
there's people like I said with this
integrated information theory of
consciousness that say consciousness is
a property of the universe like gravity.
It it exists in any system that has
these particular set of you know
properties right
>> and you know this this distributed like
integrated information and so an octopus
has it in a different way but it's this
fundamental property of the universe
that any system could have
theoretically.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Geez. Holy moly. So, what
about what's happening in your brain
when you um meditate? And uh why is
meditation good for you?
>> Yeah. You know what's interesting is
that they find that there's some similar
patterns of like brain activation and
deactivation in the brain when you
meditate as there are when you're on
psychedelics as there are when you are
in creative flow states.
>> Oh my god. I was going to ask you about
creative flow states. Let's come back to
that. Yeah. Yeah. So they're they're
very they're similar and parts part
certain parts of the prefrontal cortex
have decreased activation and those
parts have to do with our sense of self
>> and it's part the dorsal lateral
prefrontal cortex which I've talked
about before which is involved in
working memory but also has to do with
our sense of filtering filtering our
behavior to make sure it conforms with
social norms. But when you take that
filter off in a way when you decrease
activation anything goes. There's a
freedom and also that's the part where
rumination is happening. What are people
thinking about me? You know the anxiety,
the overthinking. When you turn that
part down, whether it's through flow
states, psychedelics or, you know,
through meditation,
>> it it you can't both be in that state
and have the rumination at the same
time.
>> So, it kind of decreases all of those
anxiety thoughts. It decreases our sense
of self. We feel connected or at one
with everything. Time, our sense of time
seems to dissolve. And it's really
pleasurable to be in these states and it
seems to be really therapeutic. Also
gives us access to some things that are
normally suppressed by that part of the
brain into the unconscious. It can
suddenly come up,
>> right? Because it's no longer
suppressed. And that's like MDMA. When
people have PTSD and they're suppressing
all this trauma, you give MDMA, they're
it releases some of these, you know,
memories and feelings that are
suppressed, but you're in a
>> you're doing it within a safe
environment,
>> right? and in a when your nervous system
is calm so that you're able to actually
process and work through them.
>> Yeah.
>> So, but it helps us get so getting these
states associated with very positive
emotions and and they tend to be very
therapeutic and meditation is an easy
one. You don't need drugs for it, right?
You know, I mean drugs. Yeah.
>> It's free. You don't need drug. But, you
know, drugs are like a quick like you
get there real quick, you know, but not
everybody wants to do drugs and I don't
think that they should. You know,
there's negative,
>> especially as you get older, you know,
>> and then also not every drug, you know,
I was on a panel once about psychedelics
and everyone's talking about how great
they are, but they're also like some
people that have bad experiences, you
know, and and are anxious about it and
actually some people can get
traumatized.
>> Yeah. I've known people who've been
traumatized.
>> Yeah. From these experiences. So, what's
a different way to get there?
Meditation. Creative flow states. Um,
>> but you mentioned the creative flow
state. So, I mentioned I was a musician.
Oh.
>> And sometimes I would uh go into this
flow state where, you know, you know, it
was the concert type musician, right?
>> Where did you play?
>> I'm a tubist.
>> Oh, wow.
>> Yes.
>> When I was doing this this concert
music, you know, you playing these long
pieces and you're reading the music. I
would go into the flow state. And at
that point, I didn't really feel like I
was conscious or even present.
>> Yeah. and I'm just everything is just
going perfectly and then I come to an
awareness of that's happening and it
completely throws me off.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Totally. That's the thing. It's it's um
we our unconscious can do much more than
consciousness in many ways. Once you've
trained the brain, let's say you you've
studied the instrument for many years,
you know, your brain knows which notes
to hit and whatever. Um or like let's
say you're a tennis pro, you know,
you've practiced many years. Initially,
it had to be conscious. You had to think
about every way, right? But once it
becomes implicit and it's part of your
brain, your unconscious can process many
more variables. It's unlimited as far as
we know than consciousness, which is
very specific but limited.
>> So, it's almost like your conscious
brain is a computer and your unconscious
brain is a quantum computer.
>> Oh, I like that analogy. Yeah, that's a
good one. I like that. It works in
parallel in the state state of
superposition.
>> Super position. Exactly. I like that.
But yeah, and so when you let's say
you're playing tennis or you're, you
know, you think, what angle exactly
should I hit this ball? You're going to
get out of that flow state because
you're turning on these parts of the
prefrontal cortex. You're not letting it
your brain do what it knows how to do
and you're getting in the way. Your
consciousness gets in the way. So it's
not always good to have conscious. Once
you've done all the work and the
practice, then you got to let go
>> to be in that performance mode. I
remember another analogy I like is I was
I was hiking with a friend up, we were
at Caltech and we were coming down the
mountain and I'm like going each step
like thinking where do I step next? It's
taking me forever and he's like here's
this German neuroscientist. He go just
run down. I can't do a German accent and
he goes just run like your feet know
where to go.
>> Oh,
>> let your body go and do its thing. It
knows how to navigate it. If you're
thinking too hard about it, it's going
to take forever,
>> right?
>> And he was right. Actually, it was just
running down. My body knew all the the
physics and the angles of how to
navigate to step down this mountain.
>> So, and it was like a mountain, but you
know what I like.
>> And so, sometimes you have to get out of
your own way.
>> Yeah. You know, I saw that I think it
might have been a movie or something,
but they were going to ski through a
forest and the person was like, "You
look at the path, not the trees."
>> If you look at the tree, you're going to
ski into a tree.
>> Right.
>> You look at the path. Yeah.
>> And your brain knows like you always I
once met with this uh like I did this
Discovery Channel show where we met all
these like superhumans but people who
could do extraordinary things and I was
trying to figure out how they could do
it and I met this like guy who's like
the quickest shooter and most accurate
shooter. So he had this little like
shotgun was down in Louisiana and he
could just go and like get all the
targets and
>> your conscious brain doesn't have enough
time to think about it. Yeah. So he said
I'm not even thinking about it. I'm
already looking ahead at the next thing.
my body's doing what it knows what to do
and I'm already calculating and looking
ahead
>> and then it's kind of following behind
>> because you can't process that do that
in a conscious way. It becomes so
integrated in that it becomes implicit
and then you got to get out of your way
and let go.
>> But then when anything you're doing
performance, you're giving a talk if you
become, oh my god, how are they thinking
about me? How am I doing self-aware? You
get you fall out of the flow state.
>> So you got to let go.
>> You got to let go. Yeah.
>> Yeah. That's like the something to put
on a t-shirt. Yeah.
>> You got to let go.
>> Exactly. And that's what my book is
about. Letting go. How do we let go?
>> What is it? Do you have a title for your
book yet?
>> It's It's the fine art of losing
control. It can be good to let go and
lose control in a controlled way.
>> If this episode gets your brain buzzing,
be sure to rate us, leave us a review or
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conversations.
So, what about creativity? Like, is
there a neurological or is that the
right word? Neurological basis for
creativity? Is there a way to spark your
creativity? I'm just going to confess.
>> Yes.
>> I'm just going to confess.
>> Yes.
>> In 2022,
I was looking to get my second book
going.
>> Mhm.
>> And I was stuck. So I hear about micro
doing so. So I go get myself some micro
dosage.
>> Yeah.
>> And it worked.
>> Okay. Let me talk about this. Yes. Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> First of all, I'm very interested in the
neural basis of creativity because I'm
interested in the neural basis of the
unconscious.
>> Um because the neural basis of
consciousness is one thing, but like I
said before, the unconscious is doing
most of the work. So what's going on?
what's the neural basis of the
unconscious and how do we access it in
creativity and also myself I'm a painter
and I've I studied fine art and did
theater so I always want to integrate
the science and the arts and what are
these flow states um so but the thing
with the micro doing is that they
actually did research on this and and
everyone you know in Silicon Valley and
all these tech people like micro doing
makes you more creative it actually
doesn't
>> oh
>> so what you had was a placebo effect
>> I had a placebo effect or maybe it was
just the timing
>> or maybe you macro accidentally macro
dose because you really got to macro
dose to get to the creative states.
I'm scared. I was scared. I'm like, I
can't I got to control it. I can't.
>> But it's not the the actually the micro
doing doesn't increase creativity. We
see this from studies. So, a lot of it
is is anecdotal or maybe a little bit
of, you know, the placebo effect.
Whatever works works.
>> So, I got the placebo effect.
>> You thought you told your brain, I'm
getting into this state and then
suddenly you're in that, you know, and
you got you've hit your stride. But um
with creativity, what we see is is a
pattern of activation. Put people in a
scanner. They did freestyle rappers
compared to doing a memorized rap or um
jazz improvisers doing a piano versus
doing a memorized piece. And there's
differences in brain activation when
you're in these creative flow states or,
you know, spontaneous creativity or
spontaneous improvisation, whatever you
want to call it. Again, you have
decreased activation of the dorsal
prefrontal cortex. have increased
activation of the medial prefrontal
cortex which has to do with the
generation of new ideas coming from
within. So the filters turned down, your
sense of self is turned down, but the
sort of flow of information and some
people say it feels like I'm it's coming
through me from somewhere else because
their sense of self is turned down,
>> right? But it's based on everything, all
the input you've put in your brain over
all the years, right? All the training
you've done, all the whatever you're
writing a book, all the information, all
the experiences you've had, they're all
in there.
>> Yeah. But you have to get into a flow
state to release that to be able for it
to come together in all these new novel
ways.
>> And so we're starting to see that it's
not this the antiquated idea of left
brain right brain, right? Like oh your
right brain's creative, your left brain.
It's not like that. It's really, you
know, you get into these different brain
states.
>> And some people talk about the default
mode state where it's just default mode
just means what your brain is doing when
you're not explicitly focused in on
doing a task.
>> It's like free daydreaming, free stuff.
So to what degree can we have a you know
the the a control panel for our brain?
So for example
>> like an inside out
>> right or I was thinking more of the
starship Enterprise
>> the captain's chair. But I'm thinking
about things like okay there are people
that feel anxiety like oh I want to turn
down anxiety. There are people like oh I
need to be creative to create. Oh I need
to turn up creativity. Oh, I need to um
turn off my inhibition because I got to
give a talk or I got to do a
performance. Like are there known ways
that are not like take a pill, right,
that allow you to tune in the brain
performance or brain state that you need
>> that you want or Yeah.
>> Yeah. It dep I mean there's different
techniques that work for different
people, right? So some people like if
you want to try to relax or turn down
the anxiety like maybe deep breathing
works for you, maybe yoga works for you,
going for a walk, talking to a friend.
Like it's not one sizefits-all. I think
people need to figure out what their
particular
>> um brain needs
>> to get into those states. And once you
discover that, then you have your
toolkit.
>> Right.
>> Right. So I just I wish it was like one
thing, okay, now do this for that and do
this for that. Yeah,
>> but because everybody's brain is
different, everybody's history is
different, the triggers are different,
>> you have to what I do with patients is
like figure out what works for them,
>> right? So, it's sort of like when um I
started taking acting classes back in
1999, and there was this thing about
being um I forget the phrase, but it
it's it's learning yourself, right? It
was like, okay, the idea of acting is
not to act, but to literally be. And so
if when you're in um
>> life and you experience an emotion,
>> Mhm.
>> recognize that, stop, go in the mirror,
and do it again so you know what you're
like when you experience that emotion.
So you can be that.
>> It's like method acting, right? A bit
like figuring out what you're Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So it's not
Yeah. Right. So I forgot where I was
going with that.
>> Yeah.
>> Just be in the moment and be who you
are. Well, I think you know we're each
all of us. Oh, that's the thing. You
have to you have to become self-realized
is what they called it. Self-realized.
So, this is another
>> sort of way of becoming self-realized.
One has to in order to manage your own
mind and consciousness and feelings.
Then you you you have to make that
connection between what so I'll give you
another example.
>> One of the most difficult things a
person has to go through is getting over
addiction. That is a huge brain thing.
And there's different types, right? So
there's heroin addiction, which is
physical. Then there's something like
cocaine, which is more mental habitual.
Well, I went through that one at the age
of 25, right? And um
>> cocaine one.
>> Cocaine. Yeah. And I went to rehab and
what they told me did not do anything
for me, right? I I did everything they
said to do, but what I heard the other
people talking
>> and
I found my answer. And what it was was
the drug, you know, would come to me in
my dreams. it would talk to me and it
would tell me how good it's going to be,
you know, and all this and and I was
hearing what everyone else was saying
and I put together a sentence that
worked for me. And that sentence was,
"If I do it, I'm not going to get high,
I'm going to get low."
>> Right? And that's the sentence I said to
myself because it took five years for
that voice to leave my head after I
completely stopped. Right? And that
sentence is what I would say over and
over. Yes.
>> Right. Every time it tried to lure me
back in, right? Yes. And so
I if you do behavioral therapy
>> and there are people that you know are
trying to achieve whatever mental goal
they have, how do you get to their
self-realization?
>> You so especially with um addiction. So
what you did there like your technique
was aversive conditioning. So basically
you associated in your mind you made a
new association instead of drug equals
good and high drug equals bad. Yeah. And
it took you a while to make that become
an implicit association, but you kept
repeating it, repeating it, repeating
it. Drug equals I'm going to feel bad
instead of drug equals I'm going to feel
good. And once you start pairing a
stimulus with a
>> punishment or something negative, then
you you unlearn you changes your
behavior. That's called adversive
conditioning,
>> right? So, so like with cigarettes, you
say, "Every time you were trying to
quit, every time you take in an inhale,
I want you to think about the cancer
coming into your lungs and infecting
your body with black whatever,
whatever." Give them some sort of image
that there every time you take a puff,
that's what I want you to imagine. Every
time then you start toversive
conditioning it become or when a kid
gets caught smoking, you say, "Now you
got to smoke this whole pack. You can't
stop until the end." They get sick. They
never want to look at a cigarette again.
Right? You're connecting the stimulus
with something something bad. But the
way to get to people with with addiction
is something called mo motivational
interviewing. So you there's a way of
interviewing a person to get them to
figure out what motivates them.
>> And then you got to link that thing to
something like like let's say you say to
me my kids are the thing that means the
most to me whatever. And you start
associating well if you do these drugs
like
>> you're gonna lose your kids or you're
gonna and like that's enough to motivate
them. But external motivation does never
works as good like like telling someone
you got to study because you have to get
a good grade on this exam is not going
to motivate. They need to be internally
motivated. You need to see what they
care about, right?
>> And then link it to that. So maybe my
kids like I want to study because
>> I want to get into a good college.
That's really important to me. Or I want
to study because I want to get that new
bike and I know if I get this good
grade, I'm going to get that new bike.
whatever it is for that person, find out
what motivates them and then link the
behavior to that and they'll be more
likely to stick to it.
>> So, is there a there's you talked about
two there's the motivational side,
there's the averse aversion side.
>> Yes.
>> Is there one that works better than the
other or do you cuz let let me say when
I am a mentor
>> Yeah.
>> I find that you know there are some
people that need a kick in the pants
that need to be challenged and there are
others that need to be lifted up and
encouraged. Right. So how do you you
know find
>> it's not again it's not one sizefits-all
like there's different theories in
psychology about oh you know this kind
of conditioning works better than the
other but really it depends like there's
like I think aversive conditioning is
great there's because there's what's
called one trial learning from an
evolutionary perspective it's adaptive
if you if you ever notice if you eat
something you get food poisoning
>> you don't want to go near that ever
takes one time one time to learn you
don't want to go to that or you don't
want to go to that restaurant again you
got food poisoning there I did it
happened to me Right.
>> Right. When I moved here, I ate a Cobb
salad with some raw chicken, got food
poisoned. I haven't been back to that
restaurant.
>> Right. And of course, that makes sense.
Adaptively, you're in the foraging of
the forest. You find you eat a berry,
you get sick from that berry. You got to
know never eat that berry again. You're
going to die.
>> What' you call that? One something.
>> One trial. What did I call that?
>> Yeah, that was it. Yeah.
>> Yeah. One trial learning. You You learn
it from one
>> one experience, right?
>> And it's after that you'll never do it
again. That's what aversive you know how
powerful
>> an aversive experience can be to change
your behavior
>> and sometimes it takes a little longer
to get there through the kind of reward
pathway
>> you know so there is there is debate in
literature of like you know with
children what's the best way do you
punish them or do you give them you know
motivate them with incentives and
rewards and it's kind of a combination
of both and you see some things work
better than others you know like my
son's really difficult because he
doesn't punishments don't seem to affect
him. If I say, "Go to your room." He's
like, "Okay, fine." He goes to his room.
He starts coloring. He does. He He makes
the best of it. He doesn't.
>> He's not bothered. He's like, "Sure,
I'll go to my room. Whatever." And like,
I'm like, "Damn it. What do I have left
in my tool kit? The only thing I have
left is the iPad. You can't have the
iPad. You know, that's it." I'll tell
you this one thing like an anecdote. My
grandmother who did large amount of
raising me,
>> I was a teenager and I was going wild
and you know, misbehaving as one does,
>> right? And I got caught one night. I I
snuck out my house. I got caught. It was
bad.
>> And I was like, "Oh god, I'm going to
get real punished now."
>> And she comes in my room and she just
says to me, it stuck with me to this
day. And now I have a daughter who's 11
and starting to roll the eyes and stuff.
She said, "I'm going to just say this
one thing to you. I'm not even going to
punish you." She said,
>> "I am just going to say to you, I hope
that one day you have a daughter who is
exactly like you."
>> And then she walked out and closed the
door. I get chills to this day cuz I
thought about that and I was like, "Oh
no,
>> that's terrible. I don't want to be
that." You know, that made me start to
change my behavior. That worked for me.
But now I have a daughter and I'm like,
"Shit, I hope my grand curse I hope my
grandma is the hex. Did she put a hex on
me? Please don't let her be like me.
Please."
>> Well, you know, I my son turned out to
be like me in some ways, and it really
allowed me to forgive myself.
>> So, I was like, "Oh, it ain't me. It's
genetic. Right. Right. It's about me. I
couldn't help it. My bloodline. There's
nothing we could do.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. But it's it's a scary thing. So
anyway, different things work on
different people depending on their
psychology. The same thing with learning
and education. Like some people want to
really have their handheld throughout
the educational process and have like
lots of testing and they really need
that. Other people want freedom and they
really thrive in that kind of
environment. Like when I did my PhD, I
was in the UK and at Oxford, they let
you kind of do your own thing. Some
people drowned in that because they
really needed they came from America.
They were used to the structure and
needed those um like benchmarks. I loved
it, you know, but everyone every brain
is different.
>> Oh man, I'll tell you. So in my case,
>> the last thing I want to do
>> is what someone tells me to do.
>> Right. Right. That's the thing. So for a
person like you, give you freedom.
>> I'm an autodidact. Right. Yeah. I Yeah.
I'm self-driven.
>> Same. Right. But for some people who
aren't like that model works for
self-driven people like and you know I
didn't like people telling me what to
but some people they aren't self-driven.
They need to be told look you have this
deadline you have to have this year and
that works
>> and they th they thrive under that. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. So fame and the brain. So
let me give you another I know you have
some thoughts on that. And so let me
just tell you my personal experience.
>> So you know I started doing science
television
>> about 13 years ago and now people
recognize me and it's completely changed
the way I move through the world. Right.
It doesn't make me have a big head or
anything like that.
>> It gives me a comfort because, you know,
I grew up in great violence, you know,
common violence, you know, and then and
I came of age and I turned 18 in 1985,
the crack cocaine era. Anytime you went
out, somebody was mean mugging you,
right? I got I was at gunpoint so many
times for because of the way I was
living my life, you know, various things
like that. But I just have this I was
just going through the world on the
defensive all the time, you know, on
edge, right? Always looking.
>> But now I expect that people are going
to greet me in a positive way, which is
kind of new,
>> right? And what it's done is it's really
just been a relief, right? It's just a
>> Yeah. You know, on the defense, you
don't think you're being attacked.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So I So it hasn't taken me
from like, yeah, I'm the man now. I
don't feel that at all. Right. I'm still
just the same dude. But I Wow. I do feel
such a sense of relief.
>> Yeah. Not a threat then.
>> Not a threat. Yeah. Everybody's not a
threat anymore.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I think, you know, I So, I I I've
gotten really interested in how fame
affects people and it's
>> it's not one sizefits-all. It's very
different depending on the So, so I'm
really interested in how different
personalities
intersect with this phenomena of faith.
And if I can interject,
>> yeah,
>> you know, there's the phenomenon of
children who become famous and how
negative that can be in their lives. So,
do you differentiate between adults and
Yeah,
>> there's all different types of fame.
There's childhood stardom, right? That
that affects the developing brain. You
know, suddenly you're having this really
abnormal experience and all these sick
events. You can have anything you want
and your brain isn't even fully
developed. You don't even have impulse
control. Like a lot of bad things. If
you don't put things in place to help
them, it can go really south and we've
seen a lot of cases of that. You know,
you have fame, you have infamy, being
famous for doing something. You know,
you you get famous for just doing living
your life and you do something amazing
and then you get famous. You have a
sports an athlete is just trying to do
their you know actors, politician,
there's different types of fame. There's
falling out of fame, you know, getting
disgraced, getting cancelled.
>> Well, I'm really interested in the
psychology of this. Why do people chase
it? Why do they want it? What's the
evolutionary roots of it? Right?
>> Like what what we see from studies is
that actually the person who has the
best advantage is not the alpha, but
it's the beta. It's the best friend of
the famous person. It's the right
because everyone wants to knock the
alpha person off the thing. They're
constantly having to worry about can I
keep this and threats and people want to
knock them down. The guy just next to
him, the best friend is getting all the
benefits of, you know, the, you know,
more chances to procreate and getting
more resources and getting all of that
and getting all into VIP clubs,
whatever. Cuz like, you know, when
you're Jay-Z's best friend, you're
getting all the good stuff, but you're
not getting all the people digging at
you and trying to knock you down.
>> Yeah. You're famous, but free,
>> right? Exactly. So, fame comes with a
lot of perks, but it comes with
downsides as well. Um, but but
evolutionarily now we're in this really
weird world where anybody can sort of be
famous and everyone thinks they're this
close to being famous, which it's
elucery. It's not true. Like it's, you
know, internet fame isn't really what we
meant by being famously sustainable or
for having done something amazing in the
world. Like, you know, we're all going
to know
>> whoever, you know, as the person who
walked on the moon for the first time or
Miller had or whatever, right? Like they
did things that that's why they're well
known Einstein, right? But now it's like
I can create a meme and like suddenly
but that doesn't last long and then you
get the dopamine high. Oh, people like
me, you know, and then you're seeking
it. Oh, for more and more and more
becomes like a drug. So, we see the same
neuroscircuitry involved in drugs of
addiction.
>> Oh,
>> are involved. It's involved in fame.
It's
>> about formerly famous.
>> Formerly famous. I mean, like people
who've been famous and fall out of fame.
So, there's different types. Some
continue the rest of their lives
searching to try to get that high back
again, right? It's like you got a
cocaine high and now you're just keep
trying to get back to that high. The
successful people who navigate that find
some other meaning and meaningfulness in
life,
>> right? Like they become an astrophysics
or they become like, you know, and they
find other meaning. Other famous people
find meaning in now I'm going to do
something positive with this platform or
with this fame that I've gotten and I'm
going to turn it into something good for
the world and that becomes reinforcing
for them. You know, you get dopamine
from helping others. You know, you bring
up this another point implicitly
>> that seems to track to all sorts of
positive benefits, right? Like
longevity, being healthier, and that is
living with purpose.
>> Yes.
>> Right. And and and and
one of the sort of um conflicts I have
with the way we talk colloquially, you
know, we talk a lot about being happy,
right? know if I'm happy. And and when I
reflect on my own life, you know, it
hasn't so much been happiness, but
fulfillment, right? And and one example
is um
uh I would when I was in the military,
you know, sometimes there would be some
screw- up we've all participated in. So,
they're going to punish us. So, they're
like, "We're getting up at 4:00 a.m. and
we're going to run for 6 miles." And you
know, when we wake up at that ungodly
hour and we're trying to fall out and
it's a chilly morning, we're all
complaining.
>> Yeah.
>> But at the end of it, we're all like,
"This feels great because they just
showed us what we were made of, right?
They just extended us and pushed us and
we lived up to it." And I find in those
situations where I'm just drugged and I
persevere is some of the best
>> feeling I have. But I wouldn't describe
it as happy,
>> right? You know, it's the same thing
with, let's say, having children.
>> Having children doesn't make you
happier, right?
>> Dr. That's the one thing that's come out
of this. Cut that one.
>> She says, "No, but you know, you're not
sleeping. You're I mean, I'm like their
personal servant, you know, put the you
didn't make the pasta the right way.
Make it again." You know, you're driving
them around everywhere. You're not
increasing your level of happiness, but
you are increasing your fulfillment,
right? There's a joy you get from from
hardship and adversity because you're
doing something that has meaning and
purpose like I'm helping this human
who's going to like, you know, grow into
something in this world and that becomes
my purpose and that has meaning for me
and every interaction I have with them
is valuable. And so yeah, happiness, you
know, it's
>> so what's happening in the brain when
you have fulfillment and meaning and
purpose and and why is that so
beneficial?
>> It's different than so there's highs you
get in life, right? From like a a
amazing peak moment, which is great. And
you know, a lot of patients come in like
I don't know, I don't feel happy. It's
like it's not about happy. It's about
>> can you just It's like equinimity.
>> First of all, that's first and foremost.
Your baseline should just be I'm at
peace.
>> Right. Hopefully. Hopefully.
>> Yeah. Right? No, most people aren't and
that's what we're just trying to get
there. You know, it's not about, oh, I
want to be happy. Those are peak
moments. You can't always be happy.
>> So, that's first and foremost. But our
brains in some ways give us a reward or
give us some certain types of pleasure
from finding meaning in things. So, like
when you solve a puzzle,
>> that's a good feeling. Yeah.
>> Right. you like and and there's
evolutionary reasons for why our brains
evolved to find pleasure in solving
problems and and I think finding meaning
in in ambiguous things and finding
purpose
>> it gives us a sense of this pleasure
this contentment right
>> which is different than the high the the
big dopamine highs and the rushes like a
drug or fame
>> so what what is it inside the brain is
it turning things down
>> it's hard to say it's not necessarily
really turning things down. But the when
I think people are fulfilled or feel at
peace or um have a sense of purpose, you
do get some dopamine. You get the
serotonin which is the more
>> long-term feeling of ha of sort of a
happiness or contentment. But it is
turning if you want to say turning down
those anxiety parts of our the
rumination the the you know obsessing
over all the negative things. When
you're like you know these negative
things are happening in my life. It's
really a sense of resilience. But I have
purpose. I have meaning,
>> right?
>> It helps you build up this resilience
and we see that there's a genetic
component actually to resilience really.
So there are people like let's say
who've been they look at studies with
PTSD same talk about being in the AR you
know in the military. You go to war they
looked at soldiers who went to war both
experienced the same horrible things. A
certain subset goes on to develop PTSD
and the others don't. What's is there
something neuroprotective? And it turns
out there is there's certain genetic
differences that help make people more
resilient. People are studying this now.
How do we increase resiliency? But the
point is that when you have a purpose or
meaning in addition, let's say there's
some genetic components, but it can help
inoculate you against all these negative
things that inevitably happen in life.
People die, you lose a job, whatever.
That all happens to everybody,
>> right?
>> Some people overcome it because like I
have a greater sense of purpose. Some
people find that in religion, right?
Some people find that like I have a
higher purpose. When people go to AA,
they always say find a higher, you know,
>> but it's something greater than oneself.
>> Right. Right. Right.
>> It's like that kind of feeling. It's not
just about me and my little petty
problems, whatever. It's something
greater purpose. And when I think when
you link that
>> yourself to something bigger and that's
what I talk about as a cure to kind of
fame. It's not about me me. I need all
the agilation and the likes and
whatever. It's
>> what's your greater purpose outside of
you, outside of yourself. So what do you
think is coming down the the the
pipeline as you know as we study
consciousness as we study the brain what
are the frontiers right now and what are
going to be the next breakthroughs that
are going to occur and let me just uh
add a little bit you know I've become
aware of computer brain interfaces and
you know all that kind of stuff so be as
broad as possible
>> yeah I mean that's that's exactly what I
was thinking of and you know is this
idea of us merging with technology in a
way of having neural implants and
neuroprothetics and you know implanting
devices that we merge with AI right and
that might be the next step of human
evolution is that we become cyborgs
>> that sounds cool
>> I think like well look it's happening
anyway these technologies are being
developed to help right now it's to help
people who have disabilities or for you
know it's for mental health issues or
neurological issues Parkinson's, these
kinds of things, right? It's helping
people, people who are um paralyzed and
now they can put these implants in that
>> translate your thought about moving a
limb to a computer that then controls a
prosthetic limb that will move it with
your thoughts. So, you think I'm going
to pick up this cup of coffee and you
can do this with the neural implant. So,
it's giving people, you know, it's
having a great uh it's helping people
who are disadvantaged.
>> However, it is of course going to move
into this world of cognitive
enhancement. where people are like,
"Well, what if I have a neural implant
that can make me, you know, smarter or
have more pay more attention or, you
know, help modulate my emotions in a
certain way or control my desire to want
to eat this fatty thing or whatever.
We're going to start
>> re as we've done with other technologies
is, you know, like you were saying
before of like mental engineering,
>> right?
>> We're going to like human engineer our
brain." And people are already starting
to do this. I think ultimately either
it's going to be have like
performance-enhancing drugs will have to
be completely outlawed that no one can
have it because it will give people such
an advantage. They'll be the halves and
the have nots.
>> So either everybody has to have it
>> or nobody or it's going to be amazing.
>> Once the cat is out the bag, those with
resources are going to
>> of course and it's all the tech and the
Silicon Valley people are going to start
having this. So I think we will start
merging with technology in this way.
Things will get smaller and smaller and
smaller. You just
say mom and it
conversations in your head.
But then the question is going to be and
this is what I gave a recent TED talk
about was like what does it mean to be
human then?
>> What does it mean to be human in this
world of evolving technology and AI and
as we're merging with it
>> and you know this classic silicon chip
thought experiment is like if you
replace one neuron with a silicon chip
are you still you? Are you still
conscious? then another then another
another at what point are you still
human what point are you still conscious
what does it mean to be human and I
think right now our last like like AI
>> artificial intelligence maybe you call
it advanced intelligence or you know
enhanced intellig it's already
>> smarter than us in many ways it can do
things way quicker than us it has access
to all the information all the books and
>> so what's left for us I think is
consciousness at least for now
>> and that allows I think AI will we'll be
able format out the stuff we don't want
to do. Well, answer emails and
bureaucracy and all this stuff. Let them
do it. Save us time and allow us to be
more human to get back to our
evolutionary roots because we're still
cavemen brains in a modern world. We
want to just like hang out with each
other, listen to music, you know, what
procreate, like eat, right? So, you
know, go on vacation, go to the beach.
So, we can have more time being human,
being creative, doing what we want to
do.
>> Sounds like the world of Star Trek.
>> Yes.
>> Right. Yes,
>> we've eliminated greed and right
>> all the need for that kind of stuff.
>> But I think that's the future. I think
we're going to merge with technology.
And I think um at least right now in
psychiatry, you know, a lot of the
psychedelic psychotherapies are on the
cutting edge, but this really thinking
further in the future is merging with
technology. And I'm hoping for a utopia.
It could be dystopic
>> at this. What about brain health?
>> Brain health in terms of
>> Yeah. Like like there are people
>> like longevity or
>> Well, well, no. Like we were talking
about the the therapy with the because
people have you know schizophrenia and
>> right
>> various brain conditions
>> I think ultimately with that and things
like Alzheimer's and what not I mean our
our limiting or rate limiting thing is
our understanding of the development of
these diseases but once we have that
understanding which I think AI is
helping with scientists now to
understand these things
>> ultimately I think we're going to go
back to like crisper which is like
>> modifying yeah the gene genome so that
these diseases never develop cuz now
we're catching them already when it's
too late. Once you have like let's say
the visible clinical Alzheimer symptoms,
you're already so far down in the
disease process, it's very difficult to
res reverse that. All you can do is try
to slow it down.
>> But if we can start with the genome,
>> yeah,
>> ultimately and there's a whole bunch of
ethical issues around this, right? And
there's people who argue like with
autism like I don't want you taking away
this this autism is something, you know,
it's a gift and right? So it becomes
these arguments that
>> but ultimately I think it's going to
come down to modifying the genome to get
rid of you know some of these
>> dis. What about um could you imagine
militaries like getting rid of fear in
soldiers for example?
>> Oh yes.
>> Oh yeah
>> definitely. Yeah that's for sure.
>> Not saying I'm doing any work with the
dot but
>> Oh no.
>> Yeah. Yes. For sure. I mean and there we
know like from neuroscience we have a
pretty clear understanding of the fear
network in the brain
>> and for sure we can do things like
shortcircuit that fear network and get
people to be you know not afraid.
>> Wow. So if you look at the what's next
in terms of our understanding of the
brain you think AI is going to be a big
part of getting us there? Absolutely.
And you know talking to some of the
leaders in in the in AI and you know the
head of anthropic and other places who
who was a computational neuroscientist
by training you know we were talking and
like we knew the same he knew my mentor
and whatever
>> you know he was saying he started this
got into AI because the brain was so
difficult to understand you needed new
ways in which like the computational
power and things to understand it but I
think with you know what I'm seeing with
what's happening with AI is just giving
us greater power to be able to
understand these complex lexity of the
human brain and I do think that there's
some hope there that we'll have a
greater understanding and what we do
with that understanding and that
information is another
>> TBD
>> yes it's like with any great with great
power comes great responsibility right
so it's about the decisions we make like
nuclear power could be really great or
it could really suck so
>> that I'm trying to remain optimistic and
hopeful but I do think AI is going to be
a huge you know component what
transforms our understanding of of the
brain
>> yeah what I what I tend to see is that
when we make these creations that have
built within them the capacity for great
good and great bad. You end up getting
both.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. But it it it you you want to
control those bad, but you know, and and
reap the good.
>> Do you know what it really I think it
comes down to? It's it's Freud because
we are humans, these sort of you know,
ape-like creatures roaming around with
all these basic instincts. And you know,
Freud talked about we and not everything
Freud said was, you know, he was out
there on a lot of things, but certain
things he got right. And that we have
this either this death instinct, you
know, this instinct to kind of it's our
dark side to like kind of toward killing
ourselves basically,
>> or this other instinct, which is the
like life instinct and libido.
>> And it really depends on
>> human instincts and where we're going to
go with that. I think ultimately we're
going to develop these technologies
because we have the cognitive capacity
to do so. and it's going to lead us in
all these different directions. But do
we have the dark kind of death instinct
or is that instinct for life and
survival going to you know overcome and
that we don't know.
>> I tend to be a half glass full guy. I
think that, you know, our species has
already been through so much and we tend
to catastrophize the modern time and we
tend to think about us all dying at
once, the end of the world, even though
we know we're all going to go
individually, right? Why be concerned
about when we all go at once? So, I
think that, you know, I I have faith in
humanity that, you know, we might have
our ups and downs, but the arc of
knowledge tends toward increase,
>> right? And
>> and we are and there there's this book
the um you know that's saying basically
the moral ar like we are getting we are
getting better
>> right
>> in terms of our like life quality of
life and all of that you know there's
less murder than there was and there all
these by all these metrics we are
getting we are getting better
>> you know ultimately I guess at some
point the universe is going to like you
know yeah 10 to the 68 10 to the 100
years
>> but this is my only my only complaint is
that if we don't go back into this
stream of consciousness or I'm not alive
for infinity according to what was that
thing the infinity like uh we're alive
constantly always
>> oh yeah eternalism
>> yes eternalism
>> I just want to know how the story ends
>> I get this glimpse of everything that
happened before
>> and or at least that we know of from
history and what's happening in my
lifetime but like how does the story end
>> you want to get my next book
>> oh okay does it tell me the answer
>> yeah the title of the book is why do we
exist right
>> the nine realms of the universe that
make you possible
One of those realms is the temporal
realm. And I go up through the past
using a set of principles, you know,
framed it in a physics context in a in a
non-standard way, right?
>> And then I go through the future,
>> right? And uh you know, I paint the
picture of of what's to come based on
all
>> our current knowledge. And it is it is
different. I think it's a different
take. I I think that you know, I'm I'm
giving it in a different way. It it can
get kind of lonely.
>> Okay. But only at the galactic scale,
right? On the individual scale, feel
better.
>> You know, given our ingenuity, we're
we're going to be able to last much
longer, I think, even than our son. If
uh even in the planet, we we can last
longer than planet Earth can.
>> Yeah. But we're going to be different.
Like you say, what does it mean to be a
human? If we did no integration with
>> technology a million years from now,
we'd be
>> Yeah.
>> Probably as different as we are from a
million years ago, right?
>> Yeah. We have to in I think we have to
integrate with technology in order to
survive.
>> Well, I already have. I have a titanium
screw in my shoulder.
>> Oh, there you go. I I don't have any
such thing, but I will. It'll make
>> You're going to be You're going to have
your brain.
>> Yeah, I'll do whatever it is,
>> Miss Heather. Dr. Heather,
>> you have been amazing. Thank you so
much. I've learned so much from you. I
expect to uh receive a diploma now that
you've
>> educated me. Do I get a degree in
neuroscience?
>> We can talk about it.
>> Yeah. appreciate you coming. This was
excellent. Thank you so much.
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