Kind: captions
Language: en
When you solve a puzzle,
>> that's a good feeling. Yeah.
>> And and there's evolutionary reasons for
why our brains evolved to find pleasure
in solving problems. And I think finding
meaning in in ambiguous things and
finding purpose, it gives us a sense of
this pleasure, this contentment.
[Music]
>> Heather. Yes.
>> Welcome. Thank you so much for coming to
Particles of Thought.
>> Thank you for having me.
>> Yes. I am so excited to talk to you
because you are a neuroscientist and
psychologist. Is that correct?
>> That is.
>> My brain got issues. Right. But before
we get into all my issues, let's start
at the very beginning because when we're
talking about the brain and what you do,
we are talking about consciousness.
>> But I'm not sure I know what that is.
How do you define consciousness?
>> Oh, just easy question right off the
bat. I uh I I have a very simple answer,
but it took us a long time to get to
this. Okay.
>> So, one time they brought together all
the sort of these world experts,
neuroscientists, philosophers,
psychologists. We we went to this
retreat um I think it was in Aspen for a
week and all we had to do was
>> discuss we had whiteboards we had you
know for the whole is just come up with
a definition of consciousness. Oh,
interesting.
>> You know, so I'd be like writing it down
and this agreed. Do you agree? This and
finally after the end of this whole
week,
>> right?
>> What we all agreed on is very simple. It
is first person subjective experience.
>> So does that mean you have awareness?
That's what first person means.
>> First person is only you have access to
it.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. So I don't know that you're
conscious. I'm only have access to my
own awareness, my own and it first of
all, you don't need language for it. You
don't need intelligence. You don't need
a sense of self.
>> It is pure subjective
>> sensation perception. So just simply
experiencing pain.
>> Okay. So does one need a brain? So can a
instrument like that has a neuronet
a creature that has a neuronet versus
one with a brain do they both have
consciousness? It depends on what our
fundamental theory of conscious of the
of what's the basis of consciousness the
material basis of consciousness and
that's something that's fascinated me
for basically my entire career is
>> right now we know I know I have it
>> material basis
>> material basis of consciousness so it's
this subjective experience that we have
and we assume other animals have it
because we have a similar evolutionary
history they act as if they're conscious
if you step on a cat's foot it yelps as
if it's feeling pain
>> right
>> we if you look at the hardware it looks
pretty similar like a little you know
square you know cubic millimeter of
cortex of a monkey will look very
similar to ours. Oh.
>> Um, so we assume other animals have it
and you go how far down the line then it
starts to get questionable but you know
bees, fish, ants.
>> So we know that it's something that has
to do with the nervous system. But could
it be instantiated in other matter,
>> right? Or even non-living matter
>> or non non-living matter, silicon,
whatever. We will only know for sure if
we have an agreed upon fundamental
theory of conscious theory of
consciousness. And there's several out
there. They're leading contenders. We're
we're actually pitting them against each
other experimentally in this big study
that's going on across the world. If say
the integrated information theory of
consciousness wins out IIIT, which says
any system that basically has like a
high degree of integrated information,
>> differentiated integrated information
will have this property of
consciousness.
>> Then it's substrate independent. Meaning
you could have any system. The brain
just happens to be one of these systems.
Right.
>> But theoretically you could extend it
could be a non-organic matter.
>> So what got to me there what stood out
to me is you use the word integrated
because
>> sensor it's not just having sensory data
>> that forms consciousness
right because you know there are simple
single cell life forms that know oh bad
stuff here I need to move that way.
approach, avoid. An amoeba can approach,
avoid.
>> Yeah. But they're not conscious,
>> right? Or it depends on how you define
what we mean by consciousness.
>> But they're there's no evidence of
integrated knowledge on their part.
>> Right. Yeah. Right.
>> So memory doesn't equal consciousness
then.
>> No. Cuz we could have what's called
implicit memory, which is memories that
we don't we're not consciously aware
like motor memory, right? you know,
riding a bicycle, you're not thinking
about it. I mean, if you if you put your
attention on it, then you can make
yourself conscious of it or tying your
shoe. When you're first learning it,
it's explicit. You're very conscious.
You're thinking about it
>> once it becomes habitual.
You no longer need to think about it.
Becomes unconscious memory. So, so
>> memory doesn't and then it moves to
different parts of the brain depending
on if it's explicit or implicit, right?
>> But so memory in itself doesn't have to
be conscious. It's just pure subjective
experience. Philosophers call qualia.
But like the redness of red,
experiencing just seeing the color red,
not it's me experiencing this red or
this red reminds me of the red on the
Chinese flag or whatever,
>> right?
>> It's just pure sensation. So other
animals have this. We just have then
higher levels of complexity on what we
do with that pure sensory information
and that perception.
>> Right. Right. Right. Okay.
>> Yeah. So
>> So simple. I don't know if we understand
what consciousness is anymore, but it it
>> Well, I would say it's like that thing
that for you, for us, yes. What you
experience when you first wake up in the
morning and
>> experience anything, your first
sensations, it's everything we
experience until we go into a deep
dreamless sleep.
>> Um, but most of what's happening in our
brain is happening outside of awareness.
We're only conscious of very little bit
because it takes a lot of processing to
bring things into consciousness. Most
things are happening outside of
awareness.
>> Right. Right.
>> But it's subjective. I only And when we
test people, I have to ask you, did you
see this or not? Were you aware of this
or not? And that's where it becomes
difficult with animals. We have to come
up with tricks on how to
>> test it experimentally or a person in a
coma if they're conscious or not.
>> Well, that's what I was going to get. Is
there a way to um There are different
states of unconsciousness. You could be
asleep. You could be a nesticized. You
could be in a coma.
>> So, in comparison to the awake brain?
Yes. Yes. Or what even about even
altered brain states if you're on some
sort of hallucinogenic, right? Do you
see
you know
>> gradations? Okay. So, so if you think of
it like there's um you know you think of
it like this scale there's there's
awakeness and awareness. Okay.
>> So
>> the brain needs to be fully awake to be
aware of anything. So there is different
levels of
>> wait a minute wait a minute I
as an example. Okay.
>> When I was very very young, I was a bed
wetter.
>> Okay.
>> Then I realized, oh, if I'm having a
dream that I'm about to go, I need to
wake up. And I developed the ability to
do that. So, it's like I had
consciousness while I was unconscious.
>> But here's the thing. When you're
dreaming,
>> yeah,
>> we tend to be in this sort of REM sleep
stage, which when you look at the brain
activation, looks like an awake brain.
>> So, when you're conscious in your
dreams, you're you're asleep, but you're
aware. So, there's there's Dreams are
kind of an anomaly. So if you're looking
at this scale of how awake the brain, so
you have like, you know, fully awake,
then you have different stages, you
know, sleep, coma, this and that, then
you have how aware you are,
>> right?
>> But dreams are really interesting
because they're outside of this like
line here because it's you're asleep,
but you're aware,
>> right? And that's because the brain's in
this interesting state where your
prefrontal cortex is kind of not is is
you know decreasing activation but your
your when you look at the activation of
the brain it looks as almost like the
awake brain in terms of EEG.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> So it's a unique state but you are
conscious when you're dreaming that's
consciousness even though you're asleep.
So yeah it's not a onetoone correlation.
>> Right. Right. Um but but we assume that
you have to kind of be fully awake
outside of certain anomal like dreaming
>> to be aware of anything and then we
usually when we're testing consciousness
we say in a fully awake person not in a
coma not under anesthesia
>> do you see it or not are you conscious
of it or not right
>> but then you have different levels of
consciousness in terms of sleep of you
know awakeness let's call it
>> consciousness is related to what you're
p putting your attention on
>> not necessarily so there's studies that
show there's actually there can be a
dissociation between attention and
consciousness.
So usually they coincide with one
another but there are ways in which we
can tease them apart where you can be
have attention separate from
consciousness
>> which gets us into the weeds. God
>> so sometimes though we equate
consciousness with awareness. We'll say
awareness but attention and
consciousness um are two different
things. Right. Well, I guess what I was
getting at is a lot could be going on
around you, but if you don't pay
attention, you're going to be unaware,
right?
>> Usually, yeah,
>> your brain is like filtering or
something,
>> right? That like sort of, you know,
you're at a cocktail party and you're
talk I'm talking to you,
>> but suddenly I my brain hears my name
over there in this conversation.
Suddenly, I'm looking at you, whatever,
but I'm my attention, my auditory
attention is here, and now I'm tuning
into what they're saying over there. And
you can refocus your attention, right?
So certain things grab your brain's
attention. Change does novelty does your
brain some, you know, word that might be
significant to you
>> and you shift your awareness.
>> Yeah. And your attention
>> and in preparing for uh chatting with
you today, I looked up, you know, some
of the your your previous interviews and
I saw this notion of a perception box.
>> Yes.
>> Right.
>> Yeah.
>> And it really kind of, you know, shook
me. And let me tell you why. Because as
a scientist myself
studying reality, I run up on these
points where I'm I make discoveries
like, oh, time ain't time,
>> right? And I end up at places where I'm
like, oh, do I even exist? And now it's
almost like you're telling me that my
perception of the world in some ways it
seems it's obvious but this break apart
the idea of a perception box and how
that determines one's experience of and
defines one's experience of reality and
ultimately does that mean reality is
reality if it's a perception box
dependent thing. So we we perceive
reality or the world like maybe there
are fundamental objective truths out
there. I think the best way to get to
them is like through the scientific
method because we're all inherently
biased because we are perceiving
reality. It's being actually constructed
for us by this filter of the brain.
>> Okay.
>> Each one of our brains is different. So
it's like a thumbrint, right? Each brain
has its own unique neural, you know,
setup, architecture, and
>> and history.
>> Yeah. your your exactly what you've been
exposed to, the way your brain has
developed over your lifetime, your
genetic predispositions. So, we're all
there's a lot of similarities, but
there's also definitely we're each
unique in terms of our brain.
>> So, given that our organ that helps us
perceive the world is different. We all
are seeing the world in slightly
different ways depending on our history
and our genetics. And so the brain is
constructing it's there's not it's dark
in there, right? It's it's dark.
>> That is such a brilliant Well, but I
once heard someone say that your teeth
are the only part of the skeleton that
you see on the outside. Your eyeballs
are the only part of the brain that you
see on the outside.
>> Right. Right. Right. Cuz there's Right.
But but they're really just nerve
endings,
>> you know? That's all it is. And it's a
series of ones and zeros, you know. It's
just information coming into this
machine that doesn't actually see
anything.
>> So the signals it takes as input
>> are from the ears, from the eyes, from
the
>> five senses. Yeah.
>> And and they're like chemical and uh
Yeah. Exactly. electrical and chemical
signals. Okay. Then our brain constructs
this into a
>> subjective perception. But our
perception does not correlate one to one
with reality with objective reality. So
>> let's let's define the word perception
here.
>> Okay. What how we how oh that's
difficult. That's harder to define.
>> Just receive sensory data.
>> You're receiving sensory data and then
you're forming a a sort of percept image
or a like a sound. The way we construct
how we're either seeing or hearing the
world, let's say, or feeling it. And
it's constructed by the brain like like
it's it's sort of making a movie of what
it thinks is happening out there based
on this data
>> and our our biases. So if you think of
it like this, you have this sort of
stream of information coming in from our
our all of our sensory organs. Yeah.
>> So that's coming in one way. Then we
have this top- down processing of what
we expect things to be based on our
history and what we've seen before and
and because we can't look take each
individual case each as something new.
It would be too much processing, right?
So we have heristics that we use and
expectations and where that data coming
in meets with our expectations. That's
where we form
>> our we construct our reality, our sense
of what's happening out there.
>> And it's all slightly different for each
person. So what you that's why two
different people can have completely
different belief systems and views of
the world and see things in completely
different ways based on what they expect
to see, what they want to see, what
their biases are, and what's how they're
processing the information coming in
>> and how they voted in the last election.
>> That's exactly right.
Which determines everything.
>> That determines everything in America.
Yeah.
>> But so that's we're seeing the world
through our own perception box, right?
And everyone really believes theirs is
really real. But certain things,
psychedelic drugs, meditation, flow
states can expand our perception box. So
we can have maybe we're all living in
these tiny boxes. If we can widen it, we
can understand other perspectives or see
things in a slightly different way.
>> Yeah. Oh, I I you know, I've experienced
this personally because I lived in um
the deep south
>> before in the 20th century, right, in a
very rural area and um I didn't have
access to much of humanity, right? It
was it was, you know, traditional
populations in that location. And I
leave there and go to graduate school in
the San Francisco Bay area,
>> right?
>> Dramatic shift.
>> The grocery store is different, right?
you know, every everything is uh new.
And uh I learned that a lot of the
narratives that I had in my mind of the
way the world worked, how the world was
going to interact with me was were
completely gone. I mean, were completely
wrong. But I was perceiving them from
that. You know, the guy I was at age 24
stepping into the Bay Area, the guy I am
now who's now been to countries all over
the world, you know, every state but
three,
>> very different.
>> Yeah. And you wouldn't know it though
when this a similar thing happened with
me. you know, I grew up in New York and
I mean, which is a very diverse, you
know, place. But then
>> when I moved to go to the UK, I went I
studied abroad and then went to graduate
school and then I traveled around Europe
and then I start and suddenly I had this
whole other perspective and I viewed
America differently and whatever because
it used to be like, okay, and also
within America, I'm the North, you're
the South, we're very different, but
then when we're over there, oh, we're
all the same, they're, you know,
>> and it brought into your perspective.
It's a really good and I think everybody
should try to get out of their own, you
know,
>> right? Yeah.
>> comfort zone.
>> Well, at least you can and then I think
you get closer to the truth of things.
>> Yes.
>> You know, it it's standard observational
science that the error in your
measurement
is dependent upon the number of
measurements you make. The more you
make, the more accurate you become.
Right? So the more you observe humanity
in its different environments, in its
different manifestations, the better you
understand people. And I came to the
conclusion we're all the same.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, look, you know what?
When you look inside, like look at a
brain.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> You can't tell what nationality, what
race, what whatever. It looks pretty
much the same. You can tell a lot of the
time. You can tell male, female. There's
certain characteristics, but outside of
that, you know, everyone's brain is
looking the same on the inside.
>> Yeah. What you saying earlier is that,
you know, if you have a slice of brain,
you can't tell whether it's human or
even another species.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> So, it's like we're all much more
similar than we think. Yeah.
>> So, how does our personality maintain
itself? Is it is it there is there some
underlying activity that you know when
we're awake it it establishes our
personality and you know
>> how how does this human
>> expression happen
>> you know I did I actually did a lot of
research um earlier on on personality I
was really interested in this and like
what's the neural basis of personality
what's interesting is is personality is
very consistent across life like you see
there's there's some minor variations as
you get older you get there's some
changes But in general, you take a a
baby who's and you look at their
temperament,
>> you can pretty much predict their kind
of personality throughout life like and
I can tell you this even from being a
mother.
>> I have two children, you know, in
uterero feeling them and the way they
acted and whatever, they were very
different. You know, one was much more
active, one was more active at night,
the other and like this and the way the
other temperaments as babies and then,
you know, it really carries through. So,
so I really think what we call
personality is is really and the way
it's kind of defined is a consistent way
of behaving across different
environments and settings. So that we're
looking for at personality is what is
consistent about you across time, right?
And that I think is a huge genetic
component.
>> But then our brains are living evolving
creatures, let's say. They're never it's
always changing. This is why I we can
get into this conversation. you know why
AI in its current form I don't think is
going to be conscious or we we'd have to
build a neuromorphic computer that
changes with inputs constantly because
our brain is always changing till the
day you die
>> it is changing now it's like a piece of
clay it's really malleable early on and
it starts to harden and get stiffer and
harder to mold but it's always changing
>> okay
>> so we have these basic let's say our our
fundamental roots of who we are
>> our core personality you know you're a
grumpy person you're what you tend to be
happy golucky as a baby you're going to
tend to eat throughout life. And there's
even studies that show, you know, if you
win the lottery,
>> you will maybe if let's say you're
you're a grumpy sad person, you'll get a
blip of happiness and you go right back
to where you were before. And by the
way, also if some tragedy happens, you
lose your legs. You can no longer walk.
>> You're you're happy golucky person. You
get a blip of down and then you become
that person again. So even regardless
of, you know, very impactful things that
can happen in your life, personally
stays consistent. But that being said,
>> yeah,
>> a lot of change and learning goes on
within those. So there I think there's
certain boundaries that we're in that
are that genetics set, but within that
we can either be at one end or the other
depending on our experiences. But like
if you're an anxious person, you're
never going to be the most relaxed
person in the room, but if I'm treating
you as a patient, I this is your
boundaries. I can get you from here to
here, but I'm never going to get you
over to here because there's certain
limitations.
>> I see. Wow. Wow. So that says a lot
about parenting.
>> Oh yeah.
>> You're not the molder of your children.
A lot of it is already uh established
before
>> while they're even still inside. And the
research shows if you look at, you know,
Steven Pinker and he's written a lot
about this and the blank slate that
>> parents it's very hard even as a parent
myself it's it's so counterintuitive but
really
>> there's not unless it's extremes like
extreme abuse or something then that can
have an impact. But within the sort of
normal bounds
>> what you do as a parent doesn't have
that much impact.
>> Friends do. So what you can do as a
parent is make sure you get them in a
place that might be that they're going
to be with the right kind of peers that
you want to have an influence on them
>> so their peers influence them their
their friends parents can influence them
socially and they'll be more likely to
listen to them.
>> Yeah.
>> So you can do as a parent is put them in
a right environment.
>> Right.
>> But all this stuff that we think is
having such a huge impact isn't. And
actually as you get older the um
influence of genetics becomes stronger
>> really. has more of an impact your
genetics as you get older.
>> Um, so it's like, you know, just be a a
kind, loving, do what you can, but don't
so either one, you don't, it's great
because you don't get to blame yourself
for when, you know,
it's not your fault, but also you don't
get to take all the credit, you know,
when they do extraordinary things.
>> Yeah. Yeah. They are their own little
human there.
>> Yes. You help them. I I see my children
as I'm just there to help nurture them,
help them become who they're supposed to
be.
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Let's play a little game.
>> Okay.
>> And the game we're going to play is
What's My Brain Doing?
>> Okay.
>> All right.
>> Yes.
>> I'm having deja vu.
>> Oh, that's a hard one.
>> Oh,
>> damn it. Deja Vu. Okay.
>> Is my brain quantum entangled with my
future self?
>> No.
>> Okay.
>> That I wouldn't go that far. I mean, you
never know. I don't know.
>> You never know, right?
astrophys, you know, at a distance,
whatever,
>> entanglement. But what I think is going
on is that um
>> we have a sense, we have a part of our
brain that gives a sense of familiarity,
right?
>> Something feels familiar to us.
>> Oh,
>> and I think it's a little sometimes our
brain does these little like missteps or
misfires to things. So, you might walk
into a room and you suddenly get this
sense of this feels familiar to me. It
feels like I've been here before, you
know, and so your brain then
reconstructs the reality. It's trying to
make sense of it.
>> Yeah.
>> And then you sort of get this feeling of
deja vu. Oh, I've been here before. I've
seen this before.
>> You know, and even we can mess around
with people's time perception and I did
a lot of research on during my PhD about
our what's the neural basis of time
perception? How do we perceive time? And
there's a neural different we can link
it to certain you know and people have
certain brain damage. they perceive time
differently or certain psychiatric
illnesses. So we can link it to
underlying neural coralates and we can
also play around with when a person
perceives that something happened in
time. So I can have something happen to
you and then we do something TMS,
transcranial magnetic stimulation, put a
little magnet here, zap you a little and
suddenly you're like, "Oh no, it
happened over here." You
>> can stimulate my brain to change the
place in time where
>> where you feel things happen and also
your sense of agency. How much control
did I have over that movement? And so
our brains are tricky because we're also
constructing our sense of time. So I
think there's like sort of these little
trip wires in the brain where things you
know there are little flaws in the
matrix like that's what illusions are
right when we discovered the little
holes in the brain is constructing
things but it's not perfect and when
things don't make sense like we I say
you know brain is a meaning maker
machine. It wants to make meaning out of
things. So you walk into a room suddenly
things feel familiar. You're like then
it starts to construct a new reality.
Oh, I must have been here before.
>> Is there a novelty center as well? Like
you said, there's a familiarity center.
There's
>> I mean, I wouldn't I hesitate to call
things centers. I'd say circuit circuit.
Yeah. But yeah, of of course um novelty.
I mean, our dopamine,
>> yes,
>> is released with novelty. Our brain
loves novelty because it's important for
us to attend to things that are novel
because that could be something
dangerous. It could be, you know, it
says like, "Hey, pay attention to this
thing,
>> right?" So um it's more related to
attending to things but novelty
sometimes when it's associated with
pleasure as well and you get nuclear
circumbent activation we tend to like
novelty
>> because it evolutionarily it makes sense
to attend to things that are novel for
better chances to survive. Right.
>> Right. Right. Right. Okay. So back to
what's my brain doing?
>> Okay.
>> Suppose I'm watching something or I
listen to something particularly moving
and I get goosebumps.
>> Yeah.
>> What's happening? So that that is an
interesting thing and I I think um it
has to do with this feeling of sometimes
with awe, this sense of awe. Yeah.
>> Right. Where you hear a piece of music,
you see a vista, you have some emotional
something emotional that triggers you.
It's very
>> much related to like a brain stem. Um
it's lower in the brain. It's a very
physiologic reaction that we something
triggers us maybe emotionally and then
it triggers this this
>> nervous system response.
>> Yeah.
>> It's an automatic response just like
crying is you know this auto automatic
nervous autonomic nervous system
response where
>> oh really
>> it's almost like you don't have you
don't have control over it
>> but it can be triggered by different
emotional experiences.
>> Interesting. You know sometimes we have
questions of what do other animals think
or feel.
>> So is it the case that those fundamental
basal feelings like awe
>> what leads us to cry
manifest similarly in other mammals or
you know does it have to be other
primates or
>> I do think that other animals have basic
sensations like this but we interpret
them differently. So and that for
example you know you can have a certain
physiologic sensation in you like you
feel butterflies in your stomach or
something and then once we get that
sensation then our higher cortices
prefrontal cortex starts to interpret
that as either oh I'm really anxious
about something or I'm really nervous or
I'm really excited about this thing and
we could reinterpret the same
physiologic sensation in different ways
>> and so other animals might just have
sensations and not interpret them so
they they don't sort of elevate them to
these other to to you know you might
start feeling some sensation of crying
then you start thinking of oh my god I'm
thinking of my grandmother or whatever
and then it becomes more and more and
more and it kind of
>> you know elevates it so I think other
animals have different feelings but they
don't have these more complex feelings
that we have like like envy and you know
jealousy or lust and because they don't
also can't think that far into the
future they don't have as involved
prefrontal cortex which thinks about the
future right so Anxiety is really a very
human emotion because it's about fear of
something bad happening in the future.
Animals have fear other animals,
>> but not so much anxiety here now.
>> Yes. It's the things that are happening
right now, but not like, oh my god, in
two days I'm going to have this exam or
I'm going to have so they don't have
these more complex emotions that we
have. But there's these beautiful images
like, you know, with with um Jane
Goodall, you know, and there's these
apes looking out at the vista and it
looks as if they're, you know,
>> oh, really? They're experiencing the
beauty and
>> the beauty or animals like like Yak
Pangep um was someone you know a
colleague I knew for a long time. He
unfortunately passed away but he was
talked about these
>> rats that would like tickle you can
tickle the rats and they would laugh. He
recorded their like laughter and they
would play and they would you know so
they're they're experiencing things you
know like joy. Um but it's just very
much in the moment.
>> Right. Right. Wow. That is something.
What about when, for example, I leave my
keys in the refrigerator?
What has my brain done?
>> I think you need to come to my office.
>> Oh, you ain't heard nothing yet. We Oh,
boy. I
>> Do I need treatment?
>> Um,
>> so misplacing objects.
>> Misplacing objects. I walk into a room,
I forget what my thought was. You know,
these forgetful me or I'm looking for my
keys and they're in my hand the whole
time,
>> right? Yes.
>> Yeah. So various reasons, not one answer
for everything, but the the sort of
elements that seem to be involved are
are attention. So you might have had an
intent to go into a room,
>> right? And then your first of all, your
mind is wandering. You know, you're
think then you start thinking about
what's my grocery list? Oh, what's the
thing I got to do later? Whatever. So
now you that memory of why you went in
the room slipped away. you knew there
was a purpose of going in there but you
had moved on to other things.
>> Yeah. My brain started thinking about
something else that's why. Yeah.
>> And then suddenly you're like why am I
why am I here or you know so a lot of it
to do with with attention and memory and
there's different parts of the brain
that do like like the dorsal prefrontal
cortex has to do with working memory. So
that's like
>> um you know when you're trying to
remember like four four digits seven
digits a number something you got to
keep it on saying it over and over
again. But then when you have something
in more long-term memory, it get moves
over to the hippocampus.
>> Oh,
>> but usually these things like your keys,
where you're putting them, whatever,
that's the kind of working short-term
memory. And if you don't stay attending
to like what you're doing or focus on
where your keys are, it's going to slip
away cuz your mind starts attending
internally to other things.
>> Especially people with ADHD, it becomes
even harder. Um and then yeah, of course
with age there's normal aging brain that
where you know memory starts to get not
as sharp and
>> but so if you really want to remember
where your keys are or whatever you have
to stay focused on that. So if you're
like I know I'm going in this room and
keep remembering why you're going in the
room I'm going to get my keys get my key
the second you go off that you're it's
done. You're done. I know that I tell I
tell people that when I work with them.
I was like, "Listen, if we say
>> if we come up with a task for me, make
sure you see me, put it in my calendar
right
>> before."
>> And I always say this like, "Do it now.
Write it down." Absolutely. You think
you're going to remember, you're not
going to remember. You're not. Yeah. I
know I'm not. Yeah. So, I always tell my
students, never take work out of the
room. If you if you can avoid it, don't
take work out of the room. Get it done.
>> Do it now. And And if not, just write
it. Write it down. Write it down. Don't
trust your brain that much.
>> Now what? Let's talk about drugs. So
>> Oh yeah.
>> What happens you know in in for example
when someone takes hallucinogenics
>> uh you know it's kind of like dreaming
because your brain has created stuff
that's not happening in actual reality,
right?
>> Uh but you're awake.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah.
>> It's so fascinating. So it it depends on
the on the drug. Each drug
>> that's why I said hallucinogenics to
separate it from say marijuana,
>> right? Yeah.
>> So, let's talk about psilocybin, which
is the ingredient in shrooms. Yeah.
Psychedelic ingredient mushrooms. That's
a cool one. Um,
>> we've done neuroiming studies to look at
what's happening in the brain when
people are in these states
>> and it's fascinating because what it
seems to be is that I wouldn't say
you're at a some people used to say it's
a higher level of consciousness. No,
there's no higher or lower. It's either
you're conscious or you're not.
>> But it's a different state of
consciousness. So, we have different
states of consciousness. We're
experiencing the world in different
ways. Now, normally in a in a
non-drugged, healthy, awake brain,
>> you're getting all this information.
It's actually chaos. And then our brain
has all these constraints to make it
have a clear accurate picture, right?
But you take somebody with like
schizophrenia or or another, you know,
mental health disorders with psychosis,
they're starts they're not constructing
the the reality in a constrained way. It
becomes an unconstrained brain. If your
brain is in that state all the time,
that's not a good state to be in because
you can't navigate the world. You need
to be able to filter out the sort of
non-essential information and construct
your this reality we talk about
>> because you know there is that
phenomenon and in psychedelics where
you're like oh that cloud looks like a
dragon and then it becomes a dragon
>> right because the constraints are no
longer there. So what we see in the
brain is that it becomes like an
unconstrained brain temporarily. Now I
guess like a schizophrenic is in that
state all the time. That's not healthy,
right? But if you temporarily the
prefrontal cortex is kind of like the
executive of the brain and it's kind of
constraining things and making things
make sense, like making meaning out of
it.
>> You take that filter off, you know, you
it kind of your brain starts firing in a
different way when you're on these
psychedelics and it becomes
unconstrained, which is great because
anything goes creativity, you're
thinking new thoughts, you're getting to
access unconscious things. Like
>> it's it's it's a lovely state to be in
temporarily, but then you do want to go
back to that like more constrained brain
state. But when you're in that state,
people, you know, they lose their sense
of self, right? They be feel one with
everything. The boundary between self
and other gets sort of dissolved.
>> Oh, interesting.
>> People associate that with very positive
experience, right? You feel like there's
things greater than you. So fear of
death starts to go away, you know,
especially the more intense like the
fiveme whatever really like the toad the
drug. Yeah. Yeah, people go shoot off
into space, you know, they're like, I
died and came back, but they lose their
fear of death
>> because it becomes not about you and
your ego and this construct cuz who we
are is a construct of our brain, right?
>> You know, we're making up our who I'm
this person, whatever. So, that kind of
dissolves and you get this openness. Um,
and so we're starting to understand
what's happening at the neural basis and
it's being used now to help treat people
with psychiatric illnesses like um,
obsessivecompulsive disorder and
depression and um, PTSD like with MDMA
>> to help people get into these other
brain states to help resolve some of the
issues that they're can't when they get
locked into these negative brain states
or negative um, thought patterns
>> that which reminds me there is a phrase
I've used for a long time to talk about
how I deal with my own brain and I call
it mental engineering.
And what that is is for me what I say to
myself to get my self to do what I need
myself to do given the way my brain is
operating on its own, right? I got to
sort of retrain it. So the classic
example I give is flying, right? You
know, I started flying relatively late
in life, you know,
>> in my early 30s.
>> Flying a plane or being a plane being
being a pastor in a plane. Yeah. And by
the time I did that, you know, I had
taken fluid dynamics as a physicist. I
knew Bernie's equation. I understand how
lift works.
>> But when I get up tens of thousands of
feet in the air and look down, I'm like,
"This ain't right."
>> Right.
>> I don't feel comfortable. Right. And so,
one of the things I did at that time,
there was a reality show about phobias.
And I remember one of the uh therapists
telling the person just because you
imagine something doesn't mean it's
going to happen. And so I started to say
that to myself, right? Like oh just
because you imagine, right? And so I I I
did that. Another thing is, you know,
for example, when I um was early in my
career, I was starting from behind. I
wasn't, you know, well educated and I
had to work really hard, right? And so I
would tell myself these stories like,
"Oh, while they're sleeping, I'm
working. And while they're partying, I'm
working, you know, and and and uh
>> you know, and and these stories I tell
myself to engineer my my mind.
>> Yeah.
>> Into
ignoring fear, ignoring pain,
>> things that would normally make me stop
or prevent me from doing what I want to
do. I tell myself stories.
>> So, how plastic is the brain? Um,
there's a few things there and we can
talk about, you know, free will and how
much control do we really have, but
>> there is that,
>> but but I love this kind of way you've
put it. It's kind of an analogy. What
did you call it? Mental engineering.
>> Yeah.
>> It it's really that's CBT. It's
cognitive behavioral therapy.
>> Oh.
>> Because that's phrase.
>> What we're trying to do in therapy is
that your pain, let's just say, or your
fear
>> is a construct of your mind. It's of
your own making. You know, people put
themselves into their own cage, right?
>> And if you can somehow re-engineer or
change some of those thought patterns,
>> you can change how you feel. You can
change how you behave cuz there's, you
know, the thoughts, the feelings, and
the behavior, right?
>> And they're all, you know,
interconnected. So, you can make change
in any one of those. You can change your
behavior. I say to you, go on planes no
matter what. And over time, your brain
will realize nothing bad happens. And
then you'll the fear will go away.
>> Hopefully, you hopefully you can change
your thoughts. But if I tell you if you
have a fear of flying and everything
>> I tell you about it's safe, it's all the
statistics, whatever, that's not going
to change your fear. You actually
actually have to do it. You have to
>> do it to train your brain. It's like if
I tell you everything about how to do
abs.
>> Information isn't going to change
behavior.
>> No, you have to actually do it and then
your brain sees, oh, nothing bad
happened. I'm going to change my
practice. You got to practice. And then
you also can work on the the thought
patterns. But perception can change our
reality. So if you can shift your
perception like there's you know um
Carol Dws a lot about this growth
mindset you know versus right and if you
tell yourself I can't do it I'm never
going to do then you're not going to do
it
>> right. Exactly.
>> If you say you can do anything I
remember my dad gave me advice when I
was younger. It always stuck with me. It
was the simplest thing but he was just
like never stop yourself.
>> You keep going until somebody else stops
you. And even then you keep going,
right? Because if you stop yourself and
say, "I can't do it." Then you'll
definitely not get anywhere.
>> That's right.
>> You go until somebody stops you and even
then you keep going. Never, you know, be
self-limiting.
>> Right. Right.
>> And because we can be our own worst
enemies.
>> So this idea that we can reconstruct. So
in terms of how plastic we
>> Let me let me vibe with you on that a
couple times. There's two things. one
>> when I was a graduate student and I had
be got over the hurdles and I saw that
there were others younger than me
struggling right my advice to them was
because what I saw happening is that you
know you feel so dejected you feel so
like less than you quit so my advice to
students was don't quit let them kick
you out
>> right
>> because they never do for the most part
right and then the the the other thing
that comes to mind is someone said this
to me and they misqued it, but but the
way I like the way they said it to me,
>> I like it better than the original
quote. And the thing is is um the
statement goes,
if you think you can do something,
you're probably right. If you think you
can't do something, you're definitely
right.
>> Right. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. You're
definitely not going to get anywhere if
you tell yourself you can't do it. If
you tell yourself you can, there might
be a chance you can do it,
>> right?
>> Why not? Everybody never like I don't
know you know Obama like oh I'm going to
be president like people what that's
ridiculous
>> I didn't see that one coming.
>> No
but you keep telling yourself I can do
this I can do it and then you know what
why can't you
>> why can't you right
>> you know you start seeing people at the
top. You're like that's the person at
the top. I thought there was a you know
>> well I it doesn't look that way till you
when you're in your 20s and your 30s.
Once you get older you're like they're
idiots.
>> Nobody knows anything.
>> Exactly. I I actually there was a point
when I was like, wait, I'm the expert,
>> right?
>> I know the feeling. Yeah.
>> Yeah. But it's like, you know,
>> I like to say, you know, back in the
day, we had, you know, I'm a physicist,
right? We had Einstein, Drack, Paulie.
Today, it's us, me and Debbie and David,
right?
>> Humanity is doomed,
>> right? You're like, wait, we're in
charge now. What happened? But the but
to your question of like how plastic are
we? How changeable are we? I do feel
>> and are there methods? That's the other
thing.
>> Yes. I think everybody is capable of
change as I said before with the certain
constraints of our biology right
>> what about introducing the psychedelics
into these
>> cognitive behavioral therapies
>> that's a huge game changer you know
someone I've been in the field of you
know neuroscience and and and psychiatry
and research for for you know decades
and there hasn't been a fundamental
shift in say treatment of psychiatric
illnesses in terms of
psychopharmarmacology for 50 years I
mean it's all okay you have ss selective
seroton reuptake inhibitors that are
affecting the serotonin receptors
>> and they're all like variations on a
theme. we're gonna oh we're going to
slightly do this other receptor now
we're going to do that but it's just
playing around with different
combinations of drugs then you have this
psychedelic psychotherapy which is a
huge shift I mean I've seen people
who've you know tried everything they
depressed they do you know all sorts of
we do deep brain stimulation you know
you have to go in and plant electrodes
that's neurosurgery right that's there's
some risks involved there instead you
can have these people have fundamental
shifts in in in their symptomology with
you know ketamine right now is FDA
approved. So, a lot of patients are
doing ketamine.
>> What is the out what is it? You know, I
I've heard ketamine talked about a lot
recently in therapy. Can you describe
that for us?
>> It's amazing. I mean, look, it's not
like a panacea. It's not like everyone
who does it is going to get 100% better,
right?
>> But um for a certain population of
people who have tried everything, it
really can help with say depression.
They give it now in psychiatric in the
ER for people who are actively suicidal.
It can actually just like you give it
and it takes away the suicidality like
in the moment for people. So it's very
impactful and again it's not
100% have some serotonin and dopamine.
>> So there's this glutamaturgic theory of
depression. So everybody was so focused
on serotonin and the serotonin receptors
and then there be what about the
glutamaturgic system and that seems to
also be involved and ketamine is
interacting with another it's a neur
another neurotransmitter.
>> Okay. It's another chemical in the
brain. Yes, another chemical in the
brain. Um, but what we're really trying
to understand is is it and this is I
think with all the psychedelics. So
there's you have ketamine for depression
and anxiety. You have you know
psilocybin also for anxiety and
depression, MDMA for PTSD. We're trying
to understand is it the chemical
interactions of the drug itself in the
brain that's making these changes or is
it actually the psychological experience
that people are having
>> that are having these because what the
thing is with SSRI you have to take them
every day right they have to be in your
system to have an impact and when they
wear off they're off and you take them
again the next day these you can do a
couple of experiences and then it has a
fundamental shift that lasts and we
think that for example psilocybin
increases the brain neuroplasticity. So
you become more open and more open to
suggestion. So when you do that in
conjunction with therapy, it's not just
like, hey, go out and party and do
mushrooms, but when you take them with
the therapist that it makes the therapy
more stick sticky.
>> Well, that's what I was going to ask.
Does the setting matter and is there and
is the setting stage for the therapeutic
effect?
>> Yes. So there's a lot of people who are
talking about the set and setting and
that there's certain settings that have
more of an impact. How however this the
uh another colleague my Stanford did
this amazing study he wanted to look at
the effects of ketamine without the
psychological effects just the chemical
effects so he's an anesthesiologist so
what he did he took people with
depression when they were going under
surgery gave them ketamine while they
were under anesthesia
and then saw if it had an impact so they
didn't consciously know
>> they didn't consciously experience the
ketamine experience yes but they did
have the ketamine chemical
>> yes exactly and what he found which was
interesting
is that it had a significant impact if
the people thought they had the
ketamine. So it was a placebo effect
when the people believed they really had
the ketamine there. Actually depression
got better.
>> So it might just be that this having
this you someone tells you look you're
going to go in and have this amazing
experience. It's going to fundamentally
shift your perception is changing.
>> Holy cow.
>> And that is might be a large part of it
is this placebo effect. you have this
amazing psychedelic experience and then