Kind: captions
Language: en
there's two people in the back two of
her home girls wearing like shyy masks
I'm like what are we doing where are we
going and she goes we're going to go
film The Riot we're going to Lake Street
and so we drive down there Kmart is
burning Target is burning everything is
on
fire she has the Sony A7 she gives me a
microphone and she's like go talk to
that guy and that was a guy with a
Molotov cocktail in his hand who had
just burned Kmart down and so I go what
should I ask him she goes what's on your
mind so I walk up to him and I'm like
what's on your
mind the following is a conversation
with Andrew callagan host of Channel 5
on YouTube where he does Gonzo style
interviews with fascinating humans at
the edges of society the so-called
vagrants vagabonds runaways Outlaws from
qinon adherence to fish heads to oblock
Residents and much more he created the
documentary that I highly recommend
called this place rules on the unocc
currence that led to the January 6th
Capital
riots this is the Le scamman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Andrew
Cagan I tried to color match you though
got the black and white going I went to
Walmart before this and got the Wrangler
shirt with the uh Texas Longhorns tea is
that where you shop Walmart generally
yeah I'm a Target man myself there's no
way you get those suits from Target you
so you're saying it's a it's a nice way
to compliment a suit I think you go
Men's Warehouse if not further I think
you would be wrong you go further no the
other direction you got that from Target
not Target I was joking about Target I
like Walmart better it just felt like a
funny thing to say no it was funny the
most expensive thing I own is this watch
and it was G given to me as a gift yeah
when I was on tour I had these $2,700
cardier glasses that I got for a lot of
money
$2,700 uh like sunglasses yeah they were
really embarrassing mhm but I was on
tour so I just felt like I could do
anything as far as fashion choices but
looking looking back at pictures from
myself in that era I'm like God so that
was the symbol of of the fame got to
your head I think so yeah I think Fame
getting to your head if you spend more
than a 100 bucks on sunglasses you've
officially gone off the de you crossed
the line totally and that's where you uh
go back to Walmart to humble yourself I
really love Walmart in fact I moved to
Austin because I was at Walmart and a
lady said that I look handsome in a suit
h and I was like that's it I love this
place she just said it for no reason
whatsoever this older lady just kind of
looked at me and with this like genuine
sweetness just said oh you look handsome
she she's not wrong man thank you that's
part of your whole swag though oh yeah
the suit thing yep anyway uh what was
the first if you remember first recorded
interview you did well like my first
grade teacher Mrs Claudia we had this is
back in the day like I was telling you
we just asked her about her life in
Colombia and stuff like that but I
didn't really get into actual journalism
until my nth grade year I had no idea I
had an interest in it before then I
wanted to be a rapper it's all about
hip-hop and meditation and uh picking
psilocybin mushrooms and public parks
and stuff like that that's what I was
into that's a lot so Si been meditation
rap public parks yeah I was making like
conscious rap music like I was to the
point where I had like four dream
catchers hanging above my bed Alex Gray
painting on the wall tapestry on the SE
just scribbling Rhymes down all the time
so you said somewhere that you sucked at
school okay well let me let's step back
a little bit so I had this amazing
journalism course in ninth grade I went
to an alternative high school and the
teacher was named Calvin Shaw and he was
just like he I I ended up taking his
class all four years and he used to let
me actually leave school like SK I
didn't like going to school so he'd let
me basically go around Seattle and do
different interviews with people as long
as I could come back by the end of the
day and write a story for his class and
he'd Mark me as present so the first
article that I wrote was about the the
Silk Road in the Deep
Web cuz you know yeah as a ninth grader
when I discovered the hidden wiki I
thought that I was like really tapping
into like the the most secret society
Elite level Black Market in the world
and so if you remember they had that
hidden wik link that was like hire a
hitman you know and so I I messaged them
and I was like all right you know I want
to get someone killed at my school like
how much is it going to cost me and I
published my interview with the hidden
wiki Hitman it was probably a fed or
something but who knows and that my
first article was called like inside the
Deep Web a conversation with a Hitman
that's nice yeah I mean you're were
Fearless even then I mean I was hiding
behind a a tour browser so there's not
much fear to be had oh so it was
Anonymous it was Anonymous but I did
publish it under my name so you're right
I could have been could have been in
danger I also saw that he said he took
too many shrooms when you were young and
that led you to have huc Cogen
persisting perception disorder hppd can
you explain what this is well that
condition is classified by persistent
visual snow floaters morphing objects
like I see them right now I see them all
the time this the snow is in the room
the snow is definitely in the room it's
all over you and uh
basically it wasn't that I took too many
shrooms I think that it was I took I
took about an eighth of SII Essence
mushrooms which are the ones that from
the earth instead of cow shit and I took
an eighth of those at my friend Toby's
house and which is a normal amount but I
was in eighth grade so I woke up the
next morning with these extreme you know
Visual distortions and I thought that it
would go away I tried to make it go away
but there was there's really no cure for
hppd it's a lifelong condition so it's
just a matter of dealing with it and
realizing that it is only visual so when
people ask me hey I have hppd how do I
cope with it I say remember that every
other sense that you have what you can
hear what you can taste you know your
feet on the ground you're still on Earth
you're still here well you said it's
only visual mhm and yes it's gratitude
for being alive at all it's great but
you said that this led you into some
dark psychological places like
depersonalization disorder yeah
depersonalization is the feeling that
you are not real but that reality still
exists D realization is the idea that
reality itself is an illusion created by
your mind and that you're the only
person alive and that everything that
your brain is projecting to your visual
cortex is a lie and that you're the only
living human being both a pretty uh
intense hppd creates both of those
things and so when I've talked to people
who have the condition it's really
either or but more than 70% of people
with hppd fall into either category
they're both coping mechanisms for the
like I don't know what really happens I
talked to a researcher once named Dr
Abraham he lives in Upstate New York
he's the leading scientists when it
comes to hppd research he's the only one
who actually seems to care about finding
a cure and the only known treatment
right now is alcohol and benzo diaphin
that's not good right so alcoholism
something that came into my life pretty
early alcohol abuse as a result of that
experience because that helps with the
visual symptoms make some of the static
go away man never tried benzo though so
what so can you explain to me where in
that Spectrum you are like so do you
sometimes have a sense that you're not
real and something else is not real like
the reality is not real yeah I
experience it all the time you know but
like I said my job helps with that
because I get to feel like um you know
when you seek out extremes to a certain
extent and you put yourself on the front
lines of intense events whether it be
politically or socially or just dive
into deep Fringe subcultures you get
this feeling that you're real and being
filmed is also a confirmation if you can
look at the mp4 file that you're in fact
living here on Earth confirming that you
were in it with reality by watching
yourself on video exactly so that is
that basically the engine behind all the
extreme interviews you've done well I
got hppd around the same time that I
began this journalism course in nth
grade so I sort of always Ed journalism
as a therapeutic mechanism to deal with
some of these symptoms especially
depersonalization there's some pretty
good illustrations of what it feels like
kind of feels like you're trapped behind
your eyes or that you're just this like
nebulous Soul that's trapped in a flesh
suit that you're not really a part of
you're sort of puppeteering a flesh and
bone skin suit trapped or just the
ability to step outside of yourself you
feel like your soul is not something
that is connected to your body it's
something living in your head it's
really hard to explain to people who
haven't gone through derealization or
depersonalization but if you go on
support groups they always say like how
do I break free from behind my eyes like
dark stuff like that also you're trapped
I mean there's a higher state of being
through meditation that you can kind of
step outside of yourself but this is not
that unfortunately it was kind of the
meditative path or you know the Eastern
path that I took and kind of Fus that
with psychedelic culture in Seattle that
took me down the Psychedelic use rabbit
hole in the first place so like I'd say
it all started with sadara sadara that's
a good book have you done sh since then
no I don't really do psychedelic drugs
but like a lot of people think that I'm
against them which I'm not just doesn't
work for me if it works for I'm sure
they can be really fun especially I know
there's lots of like therapeutic uses
for acid and ketamine and psilocybin but
I personally abstain from those kind of
anything psychotropic I try to stay away
from drinking a bit well yeah I mean I
didn't drink at all before I had the
hppd stuff and I would have drank later
in life but definitely like 14 15 every
day after school I drink a a 40 oz of
Mickey's it's like a kind of looks like
Old English but the bottle's green and
it has a Hornet on the side of it just
kind of became a ritual just to deal
with the anxiety of of that situation
and it made the the snow go away yeah
alcohol really works to suppress hppd
symptoms so you said you hated classes
in school except that journalism class
okay we need to clear this up because on
my Wikipedia page for some reason for
Andrew Callahan early life it says
Andrew hated every single class except
for one yeah so I've had a bunch of
teachers who were super cool like this
guy Tim my astronomy professor in ninth
grade Miss zetti my creative writing
teacher in sixth grade and this really
cool dude at my college in New Orleans
named Charles Canon who taught me a
class called New Orleans mythology my
three favorite classes besides my
journalism class and they all hit they
all hit me up and they're like hey man
saw you said you hated every class ex
sorry I couldn't be everything that you
wanted me to be yeah and so I just want
to say shout out to all those teachers I
didn't hate every class the point that I
was making is that being forced into the
institution of school so young and
having to take common core classes like
biology
seting frogs history of the Han Dynasty
stuff like that that I didn't want to
learn but I had to learn multiple times
I mean I learned about the dynastic
cycle in ancient China three separate
times at three different schools and I
was like who is writing this curriculum
and why is it so important that I
understand this process yeah the part
that makes School difficult especially
in college is that you have people just
going to school just to get the degree
who don't really know exactly what
they're interested in and they don't
even have time to figure that out
because they're in a bus Business
program or a Communications program with
no specific interest well I think if you
want to do school right take on every
single subject that you're forced into
it's like the David Foster Wallace just
be un Boral by it just really go in as
if uh ancient Chinese dynasties are the
most interesting thing you could
possibly learn and it is somewhat
interesting the Silk Road and the the
great wall and Terracotta soldiers and
stuff but I'm just saying like uh when I
got to college I signed up for
journalism school right and I didn't get
to take a media class until the second
semester and you know I I had to take
everything prior to that and I'd already
spent so much time I just think the
excruciating boredom of schooling left a
bad taste in my mouth but there was
individual classes that I liked a lot
yeah there should be some
choice or maybe a lot of choice even at
the level of high school for what what
kind of classes you pursue yeah for sure
and uh you're also saying so Wikipedia
is not always perfectly right no but
it's just interesting because like I've
said so much in podcast but that's what
they isolated M and I've gotten that
question before which I understand it's
the first thing on my Wikipedia page but
it makes me sound like a super hater
have you ever seen this Instagram page
called depths wik of Wikipedia oh it's
great oh it's so good dude uh you said
you love journalism what did you love
about journalism I mean what hooked you
on a basic level everybody wants media
coverage right Everyone likes to be on
camera and get exposure for whatever
they're doing and so being a journalist
and being a almost like a portal for
exposure for people allows you to be on
the front row of of everything that you
want to to be a part of you get to be in
the front row for history as as it's
unfolding because everyone wants to be
covered so being a journalist gives you
a ticket to everywhere that you want to
go in life and so it allows you to step
into different realities almost and then
go back to yours and it just keeps life
interesting buy the ticket take the ride
Hunter S Thompson is he up there in the
as one of the influences or your
influences I think the early Daily Show
was so good um Sasha Baron Cohen huge
influence I mean that was like the ALG
show especially I think Louis th's
broadcasts on BBC were great um I was
really into Hunter as Thompson too but
not really until College you know I
really like a a particular Hunter S
Thompson book called the great shark
hunt um where he covers the Ruben
Salazar murder by LAPD or LA Sheriff's
Department in in the in boil Heights in
the in the 70s and his his relationship
with his lawyer Oscar aosta and that
whole Saga is great fear and Loa I like
but not as much as his straightforward
reporting cuz there's the Gonzo side of
Hunter where he's like saying he's
taking drugs and seeing shit and there's
the other side of him which is like an
actual reporter interested in telling a
story that's has news value so it's two
different lanes for him there is
something about you that makes people
want to say you're the hunter as
Thompson of this
generation and I don't think they mean
the drugs I think they mean some kind of
non-standard
willingness to explore the extremes of
humanity and like almost a celebration
of the extremes of humanity yeah well
that's a very kind comparison I'll get
there one day maybe I just went to Aspen
on a little Hunter S Thompson Recon trip
to go check out the Woody Creek Tavern
which is the spot that he was like his
bar near his cabin and it was pretty
cool to see unfortunately it's kind of
turned into to not not a dive bar now
but it's a sit down sort of Country
Restaurant but it was cool but I
expected to see a bunch buch of gnarly
Hunter S Thompson
types uh
speed just doing drugs I mean drugs and
alcohol is all part of it somehow yeah
it's all it opens a gateway to a deeper
understanding of humanity but I will say
though like as someone now who doesn't
party like I did when I was younger it's
not as important as I thought it was you
know yeah I'm uh conflicted on this I'm
good friends with a lot of people that
say alcohol is really bad for you and I
believe that too but there's something
that I just as an introvert as a person
who has a lot of anxiety for me alcohol
has opened doors of like just opening
myself up to the world more oh I'm
actually a fan of of alcohol moderate
drinking but I'm saying like my life
before I would say 2019 2018 especially
there was the chaos on camera but then
there was my private life which was like
chaotic partying all the time oh I see
and I I I convinced myself much like
Hunter did that that was the secret
sauce that in the core the spiritual in
my spiritual core that gave me the
creativity but then I cut out a lot of
that stuff and I'm just as creative and
it's interesting that a lot of I think
one of the hardest parts about addiction
is that if you're functioning highly
creative addict of any kind your your
brain and your The Addictive part of
your brain convinces yourself that it's
all part of the Cross purpose and that
it has this like symbiotic you know in
inspirational thing going on but it's
not it's not true it can be but it's
typically not yeah it's not a it's not a
requirement right you can sometimes
Channel you can sometimes leverage all
those things for your creativity but the
creative engine lives outside of that
like have you read that Hunter's um
daily routine in the year up to his
death it was like 15 grapefruits and
eight ball of coke and like just like a
certain amount of shotgun shells for him
to fire into the sky every morning yeah
there's no way and he didn't do anything
creative in those in those final years
yeah but so the creativity goes away and
gradually you just become like a party
animal like Andy Dick a caricature of
yourself yeah I mean that's why life is
interesting you make all kinds of
choices and sometimes you can have uh
create works of Genius in a short amount
of time based on drugs or no drugs
Einstein had that miracle year where he
published several incredible papers in
one year 1905 did he do drugs before
that lots of coke and uh I was like I
believed you for a sec I'm like did
Einstein have blood I don't think he did
how do you think he gets that hair come
on it's true I'm just asking questions
high confidence hair look into it yeah
you know what I mean uh yeah well no
he's a well put together uh sexy young
man the hair came later yeah was Albert
Einstein attractive as a teenager not
teenager was he attractive as a Young
Man uh sexually attractive or I don't I
mean I'm turned on by Einstein at all
ages I don't discriminate but are you
more turned on by the work that he did
or his physical
being uh no sometimes I fantasize what
it would be like to be in the arms of
Einstein I could even get that out yeah
u in the arms of Einstein yeah just just
I want to feel safe it's a good idea for
a
romcom to be a little more serious like
general relativity that space time can
be unified and curved by gravity is an
incredibly wild and difficult idea to
come up with like it's a really really
difficult thing to imagine given how
well uh Newtonian classical mechanics
physics works for predicting how stuff
happens on Earth to think like
like like the
that gravity can can morph space time
both space and time is and it permeates
the entire universe it's a field it's a
really wild idea to come up as one human
on earth to Inuit it that is really
really really difficult and it's really
sad uh to me that he didn't get a Nobel
Prize for that was was there people
saying he was crazy when he was around
or was was he universally recognized
it's like an OG of no I think once the
papers came out he was widely recognized
as as a true genius but before that he
wasn't recognized he had a really
difficult so back up where does a black
hole go like after something gets sucked
into it you mean is it a portal to
another place that kind of thing yeah no
h well we don't we don't know it could
be like it could be uh that the universe
is kind of like swiss cheese full of
black holes there's something called
Hawking radiation where the because of
quantum mechanics the information leaks
out of a black hole so it is possible to
escape a black hole there's a lot of
interesting questions there I hope we
get to the bottom of that and there's a
super massive black hole at the center
of our galaxy which doesn't seem to
scare physicist but it terrifies me oh
yeah for sure astronomy can be
terrifying yeah we're all like uh
orbiting I mean we're not just orbiting
the Sun but the sun is part of the solar
system as part of the Galaxy and it's
all orbiting a gigantic black hole have
you ever spoke to someone who's been to
outer space Jeff BOS he flew his own
rocket wow that's pretty cool astronut
that's been to deep space now well maybe
I've spoken to an alien that just hasn't
admitted it I want to do a a research
paper or like a report about space
Madness you know it's supposed to be
this like torturous feeling that you get
when you look away from Earth and into
the abyss after you've exited Earth's
orbit or whatever um because there
there's one specific psychiatrist who
knows how to deal with space Madness and
I want to figure out how and interview
people with it is this a real thing like
is there a Wikipedia article on it yes
look up space Madness treatment now I
don't trust Wikipedia after what you
told me so I know they think I hate
classes I thought you meant more about
the fact that you're isolated out in the
space that we need social connection and
it's difficult yeah I think it's just a
feeling of extreme insignificance that
you might get sometimes when you look at
the night sky but it's that times a
thousand it's like an existential void
that's created after looking into the
abyss and then realizing how small Earth
is in the the grand scheme you just
start to really have a strange new
perception about the the pointlessness
of existence I don't need to go to space
for that I mean only a handful of people
have been to space but I'm sure they're
all pretty well off so this psychiatrist
has to be like in the multi-millions
well technically we're all in space cuz
Earth is in space but so um I wonder if
you have to go to space to talk to the
psychiatrist yeah probably so well
technically we're all in space so he
can't that's a b he can't have but not
everyone believes that as you've seen
from my my work probably you're right
and that's those are important people
that are asking important questions yeah
um you hitchhiked across us for 70 days
when you were 19 right tell the story of
that well this sort of connects to what
I was talking about with the boredom of
school and these common core classes so
after my first year of school where I
lived in the dorms like a like a old
school dormatory building at a school in
New Orleans called lyola University I
wanted to I wanted to just do something
I felt so bored I was working for the
school newspaper for the for that whole
first year it was called the maroon and
I didn't have the ability to write my
own stories like I had to defer to an
older editor and they would give me
stories to write about and they were all
about like on campus happenings like the
pope visits New Orleans or glass
recycling to be restored in the French
Quarter or hoverboards banned on campus
due to safety concerns and it just kind
of felt like all right I kind of wanted
to be a a Gonzo reporter I'm not sure if
working my way up through the
traditional Newsroom hierarchy is going
to get me to that point so I started
reading a bunch of old hobo literature
you know like post World War II
vagabonding stuff and there was this
book called vagabonding in America by an
old hobo named ed burn and I read this
and it just basically obviously some of
it was outdated they had stuff in there
like the hobo code like oh this moniker
on the side of a fence means this person
has free soup or something like that
they didn't have stuff like that but
what it did tell great it told me about
train stop towns like dunsmir and you
know places in Montana where there was a
friendly attitude toward Drifters and
that still persists from the 60s and 70s
to this day even though in my opinion
movies like Texas Chainsaw Massacre have
ruined hitchhiking culture in America
because now everyone thinks you're going
to you know decapitate them if they pick
you up so after my final day of courses
at lyola I literally left all of my
belongings inside my dorm and took the
street car to the Greyhound station got
a oneway ticket to Baton Rouge and I was
like I'm going to hitchhike across the
whole country back to Seattle with no
money and that that was that was the
plan and it worked out I love it I
traveled across the United States uh
before in similar kind of plan you you
were you on the silver
dog Greyhound Bus Greyhound is pretty
nice that's a step above hitchhiking
yeah that's way better than hitchhiking
Greyhound Amtrak airl Amtrak no that's
the leest uh what's in between Greyhound
and Amtrak a car that's what it is yeah
it's a car yeah a shitty car okay cool
and I lived in a shitty car you lived in
a car yeah when I was uh driving across
United States yeah SOLO uh with a friend
some some solo mhm and I would uh have I
would eat cold
soup I love cold soup what I like is the
cold uh chickpeas in a can you get the
water out and just dump them in your
mouth yeah those are good beef jerk kind
bars kind bars are really good for the
road yeah I mean all of that is great
but too much of it is not great like too
much cold
soup not great too much beef
jerky so what was the route you took was
it Chicago across or was it Philadelphia
across Philadelphia across to LA or
where uh San Diego is where we end up
but it was a zigzag and went up to
Chicago and then all the way down to
Texas so you went Philly through through
Appalachia up to the Midwest y did you
cut over like the Southwest down to San
Diego no no no I went straight down to
Texas all the way down Midwest so like
but did you cut from Texas west through
New Mexico and Arizona to get to San die
that is the best road trip Place
Interstate 40 like Albuquerque Flagstaff
Vegas Kingman the Mojave Desert Yuma
doesn't get better yeah I mean and
you're kid so you don't care and you
throwing caution to the win and I met
some crazy crazy people it gives me some
sanity like whenever I'm feeling kind of
out of control or you you know like
bummed out I just remembered that the
road is still out there the open road
never goes anywhere and it's kind of
like a I see like an invisible door in
the corner of the room all the time that
makes me more comfortable cuz I'm like
hey at the end of the day if I'm bummed
out I can go hit the road and I'm sure
there's going to be a fun time ahead
yeah get that Greyhound ticket and go I
would say silver dog half because
sometimes I got to ride the dog when I'm
when no one will pick me up there's some
places in the country where no one's
going to pick you up yeah Kansas
Missouri they're not going to do maybe
you're not Charming enough you thought
about that I was 19 fresh clean shaven
yeah I was pretty Charming I'd say but
the older you get the harder it is to
hitchhike because they think you're like
an escaped convict or some type of like
Psy psycho Wanderer and some of these
people are like what what we call
punishers it's people who never stop
talking and so they see someone
hitchhiking and they're like yes I'm
going to talk at this person and you can
tell their eyes are wide they're like
what's up then you're like oh shit so
it's 6 hours of just like oh cool nice
yeah that's rough yeah yeah you're right
right you're right I like people that
are comfortable in
silence yeah but then that also raises
the question are they about to kill me
you know what I mean I think that's a
you problem not a you know what's funny
is almost everybody who picked me up
when I was hitchhiking was like a like a
day labor like most it was almost all
Mexican day labers who picked me up oh
interesting cuz I think that like in
some places down there that's a typical
thing to do hitchhike to work a lot of
people don't have cars but they still
have to get to their jobs so a lot of
people ask me hey where should I drop
you off where's your job at and I'm like
my job is to explore and they were they
were done with it see like for me it was
really easy because you just say like
I'm traveling across the United States
and I think people love that idea and
they want to help MH they they romantic
cuz they also have that invisible door
everybody has that invisible door I just
want to go so you know what I'm talking
about yeah I mean I anchor it can anchor
you a bit just to remind you that every
pattern that I've fallen into is
voluntary and it's for my own stability
and mental health well that's why I'm
like renting everything and I'm sure
like tomorrow I can just go I gave away
everything I own twice in my life just
very like I'm ready to go tonight let's
go what's the hardest item you've had to
part with in this experience there's
nothing you've never had a material
object that was really hard to let go of
no so You' give that watch to somebody
if it meant no this you're right you're
right that's probably the only I've
never had to let go of that though
that's the only thing I own this means a
lot to me but everything else but then
again listen cuz uh okay this watch is
given me to me by Rogan um who's become
a close friend but like whenever I
romanticize the notion that this watch
means a lot to me he's like don't worry
about it I'll just get you the same one
again yeah I like God damn it it's a
pretty sick sick ass gift though yeah
it's pretty pretty sick I'm not usually
a gift guy but you know um when when
somebody you you look up to kind of
gives you a thing it's a nice little
symbol of uh yeah of that relationship
so it's nice but other than that no know
but even this like whatever the
relationship is what matters the human
is what matters not the I agree 100% you
had something like this not really I
mean there was a hard drive that I lost
that had all of my like childhood
pictures on it and stuff like that that
I think about all the time because I
left it on a train and like the certain
memories you think about it you just get
pissed off I just think to myself
someone has that somewhere I have dreams
about reuniting with the hard drive you
and uh Hunter Biden have the similar
kind I don't think he wants to reunite
with that one okay dude it's crazy like
you
know all he did was smoke crack right or
was there more stuff going on and I
think there's prostitutes involved oh
okay whatever I think you got to look
into it I think I have to look into it
too I don't
know um was carak Jack kowak and
somebody that that wasn't an inspiration
at all in this road trip did you even
know who that is the be generation I
didn't know who it was and then after I
did the ultimately I wrote a book about
my hit experience years later and
everyone was like have you read on the
road and then on the road I probably
heard the title of that book every day
at least 10 times for two years and um
I'm sure kowak is a great guy I mean I
just don't I'm not too familiar with the
Beat Generation it's a great book it's
uh you read it or no I refuse to read it
people even have gifted it to me being
like hey man you're going to love this
one and I'm like is that on the road if
I honestly people have given me a book
with rapping paper on it and they're
like this is right after rally I was
like that's fucking on the road isn't it
give you a different cover yeah no I'm
like anything but that but I'm sure it's
a great book it's just the comparison
thing drives me
crazy but respect big respect to
carak would never speak down on the
whole anyone in the Beat Generation what
are some interesting moments you
remember from that those 70 days man
there was so much I mean getting
mistaken for a gay prostitute on my
first hitchhiking ride in Louisiana was
pretty funny where did you come from and
where did you go well I mean the the
journey began in Baton Rouge and the
first destination was Houston which is
about 4 and 1 half hours West um on
Interstate 10 so I'm in Crowley
Louisiana I'm on the side of the road
and I guess this was a cruising truck
stop it was known for being a place
where male lot lizards would go to
procure clients and I was there lot
lizards are it's a derogatory term in
trucker culture for a prostitute who
hangs out at the loves or Pilot Flying
Jay
large Interstate Truck Stops now trucker
culture as it once was is pretty much
finished because of the live stream
cameras they have inside of the trucks
now so you can't snort sua fed or pick
up anybody you can't even pick up a
hitchhiker or you get fired killed all
the romance yeah definitely the TR that
the old school Outlaw trucker lifestyle
unless you're an owner operator with
who's not even in a union which is like
a real cowboy way to hul loads you can't
do that you are mistaken for a lot
lizard mistaken for a lot lizard by uh a
small man from Honduras with a spiky
leather jacket covered in studs nice
didn't speak any English but you know I
thought he was just you know a nice guy
and then he pulled over at a there's
private theaters in the South where they
have confessional booths set up and they
have three channels and people go in
there and you know porn yeah people go
in there and you know please themselves
yeah yeah so he thought he was taking me
to one of to one of those I was like all
right cool man yeah like you know if
this guy wants to go jerk off I'm just
gonna wait in the car it's all good I
don't discriminate but then um I was
like he buys a booth for me and I'm like
okay you know nice I'm not really in the
mood to watch porn with this random guy
so he gets in the same booth as me and
he starts jerking off right next to me
and I'm like oh man
like I don't think this is chill I'm
like dude can you stop he stopped
jacking off and he's like what do you
mean like I thought this is what you
want to do like I have money for you
like what's up and I was like oh no I'm
just a regular guy he was super cool
about it he started laughing he was like
oh my bad man I thought you were you
know selling something I said no and he
said oh it's all good and he gave me a
ride all the way to Houston that's great
yeah we talked about anything except
that for the rest of the car ride that's
great it was just rolled with it oh
sorry about that it could I mean I had
about a foot and a half on this guy so I
wasn't too scared I also had like a
knife in my pocket but I didn't want to
stab him especially not at a place like
that and you were still that that didn't
like leave a bad taste your mouth well I
figured that can't happen again it can't
keep happening so I was like all right
if I got this out of the way the first
ride the following rides are going to be
spectacular yeah I
mean who Among Us have not been mistaken
for a lot lizard it's a fact you heard
it here first what else what what some
interesting
beautiful people that you've met well I
use the app uh couch surfing to find
places to stay now you can only submit
like five couch surfing requests a day
unless you're a premium member which
means you also host People couch surfing
is still around yeah yeah totally oh
nice but it's evolved obviously into a
different thing Airbnb is a kind of
competitor to that right couch surfing
is free though right so couch surfing
they call it like the Cs community so
basically there'd be these like couch
surfing super hosts in different cities
like there was one in Santa Fe this
firefighter dude who had like 15 other
couch Surfers there chilling nice um so
I would do it everywhere A lot of them
were um
Catholics you know so it was their way
of giving back a lot of them were
nudists and so I didn't realize that
there's a small little section at the
bottom of someone's couch surfing
profile that says clothing optional yes
and that means if you go there I thought
it meant like it's cool if you walk to
the bathroom in your underwear no if you
go there everyone's going to be butt
naked so I I made that mistake a few
times not that I'm anti- nudist but I
didn't want to you know I wasn't ready
to take that leap of faith and uh yeah
it was just great couch Roofing hosts
were amazing yeah that was just great it
was this constant thing where I felt
like wow people are so welcoming I'm not
having to pay them a dollar for this
experience yeah I love couch surfing for
like again for me being an introvert
just crashing on a person's couch being
essentially forced into a great
conversation is great yeah the one thing
that gets exhausting about hitchhiking
is constantly thanking people you know
being in like sort of constant
superficial gratitude everywhere all the
time like oh thanks for letting me sleep
on your couch thanks for the food yeah
part of the reason I wanted to live in
an art later in life is to avoid having
to constantly live in this like thanks
so much type of frequency cuz it's
exhausting to constantly hey man thanks
I think the shallowness of that
interaction is exhausting not just the
not not the thanks yeah if it was a true
favor of course I I love giving people
gratitude for that but just this thing
where everyone who picks you up is you
know you get you get eight rides a day
you're like thanking eight people a day
like they're you know the second coming
of Jesus you start to feel a little bit
debased what did you learn about people
from that from that Journey that's your
first time really kind of going into it
that the American public is just so kind
overall I mean they're so like embracing
depending on who you are and
specifically though the Christian family
people of the US who drive in minivans
and have that that Fish sticker on the
back where it's like Jesus fish and then
they have the family sticker you know
where each member of the family is a Act
is stick
figure those people never picked me up
and would flip me off with their whole
family sometimes they would throw full
Dr Peppers at me as a family while I
stood on the side of the r as a family
together they yell shit like go to hell
hippie when I was on the side of the
road and so it's weird that the
most charitable Christian American
Family Values people never gave me any
charity or even conversation they were
antagonizing me and saw me as like a
hippie left over from the 60s who needed
to go to work go to Vietnam I don't get
it yeah but uh the people who really
extended a hand to me is people on the
margins yeah people working on seasonal
visas people whose cars have you know
less than a quarter tank left people
struggling with addiction who saw me
struggling or at least they thought that
I was because they assumed I was
hitchhiking not out of Adventure but
because I had no car and were willing to
get sacrifice their day almost sometimes
to take me exactly where I needed to go
that's beautiful man I've had similar
kind of experience that people who are
struggling the most are the ones who are
to help you when you're struggling yeah
there's there's people like in religious
context and other kind of communities
that just judge
others because they've kind of
constructed a value system where they're
better than others because of that value
system and that that actually has
a Cascade that forces you to actually be
kind of a dick yeah I never thought
about that way it's so true do you think
about like morality and religion a lot
yeah yeah yeah I've been to certain
parts of the world world where religion
is really a big part of
life I'm just
uh always skeptical
about tribes of people that believe a
thing and believe they're better than
others because they believe that thing
that could be Nations that could be
religions yeah and I I mean in Ukraine
and in Russia I've seen a lot of hate
towards the other yeah and that that
hate I'm always very skeptical of
because it could be used by powerful
people to direct that
hate uh just so the powerful people can
maintain power and get money this kind
of stuff it's a scary thing to see how
easy it is for high up political people
to mobilize the hate of just the average
working person and can almost convince
them to sabotage their own countrymen
who they share more in common with than
the politician they look up to just to
advance the agenda of one party that's
what we're seeing now are there some
places in America that are better than
others can you can you speak negatively
M of um like uh aforementioned Joe Rogan
talk shit about Connecticut nonstop is
there can you pick a region in the
United States you can talk shit about to
talk shit about oh for sure I
mean from that experience let's just
narrow it down to that oh Colorado oh
Jesus really yes I know so many people
that love Colorado dude Dallas Denver um
I used to think Phoenix sucks but I love
Phoenix now the way they build these
cities to just be so circular and
massive it's just like stop it you don't
like circles I like grids man
oh you're a grid guy Manhattan New
Orleans San Francisco what is it about
grids that bring out the worst in
people circles is where every just
there's a everyone's just vibing outy
Goosey but the grid gets people locked
in hateful I don't know man but I've
never heard anyone talk shit about
Colorado I have to say it's kind of
refreshing it provides a necessary
balance for the Colorado Wikipedia page
yeah oh Oregon too I got problems with
Oregon Oregon yeah well here's the issue
you have and I don't like just calling
people racist cuz it's kind of like a
two-dimensional insult but you have the
most racist state with the most
psychotic Anarchist City in the middle
of it what is going on up there how did
this happen the the yin and the Yang is
so extreme that there must be something
in the in the wam what do you have
against anarchism I have nothing I used
to be an anarchist when I was in eth
grade I had this friend named mads who
was part of a group called Seattle
solidarity which is like an antifa
precursor so I grew up like going to
Black Block protests and I mean there
was a particular shooting the murder of
John Williams who's a Native American
wood carver in downtown Seattle he got
killed by a Seattle police officer named
Ian Burke he John Williams was carving a
a pipe or from a wood block with a
pocket knife he's deaf in one ear
officer pulls a gun on him and says put
it down he doesn't hear him he shoots
him 6 seconds later so that police
involved shooting is what instantly
turned me into like a very critical of
law enforcement kind of person person
when I was super young and so as someone
who used to see this guy who got
murdered who was a 55-year-old man I
used to see him around pike place where
my mom lived it's a public market in
downtown that to me put me into the
anarchist political sphere be just just
channeling the anger of that experience
and the officer got no charges by the
way you can look up the video it's
horrific you know and it didn't get
reported the officer I'm pretty sure is
still active duty and so it's like
situations like that early in life
Chanel me toward political extremism but
I grew up to realize how um incompatible
that anarchistic worldview is with
reality and with the with American
society can only exist in a small little
chamber you know you can't apply that to
the industrial Heartland of the country
and I think also anarchism so gotten to
know Michael malice who's written quite
a bit about anarchism and it's also
exists as a body of literature about
different philosophical Notions that
kind of res the state the ever expanding
state in different kinds of ways and
it's it's always nice to have extreme
thought experiments to understand what
kind of society we want to build but
implementing it may not necessarily be a
good idea yeah me Emma Goldman I'm a
huge fan of her writing um also the
prison abolitionists that are associated
with the anarchist movement Angela Davis
Ruth Wilson Gilmore all that stuff
influential I still adhere to a lot of
those principles when talking about
stuff like radical prison reform and
stuff like that but just uh I I drifted
more toward having a more open mind as I
got older extremism implemented in
almost all of its forms is probably
going to cause a lot of suffering yeah
you worked as a door man on the uh I
could say legendary Bourbon Street in
New Orleans uh where you saw what you
described as this might be another
Wikipedia quote by the way this is where
I do my research Wikipedia hellish
scenes hellish scenes and quotes
Wikipedia is damn right about that all
right thank
you that's a win that's one in the wind
column uh so yeah tell the story of that
what's it like to work on bur stre what
kind of stuff did you see I mean I was a
host at a at a fine dining restaurant
that on the corner of bourbon and
Iberville so that's the first street if
you go from Canal Street onto the
quarter so this is like across from like
a dackery spot it's the the middle of
the tourist Corridor of New Orleans and
the spot was kind of like an kind of a
tourist trap it was called Bourbon House
the food was good Chef Eric I don't want
you to see this and think you don't make
good and Dey sausages but it was
overpriced and so I had to we had to
maintain this like fine dining facade on
a street where almost everyone is like
throwing up fighting or is half naked so
there was this policy we had these giant
glass windows next to the the the tables
so if you're eating at at Bourbon House
you can look out onto Bourbon Street and
you can see as you're dining a full
panoramic view of all these partyers
throwing beads boobs all that y we had
this policy where if we're serving
someone we can't look onto Bourbon
Street if something crazy is happening
so there's a fight or something like
that we can't look right so there is a
dude I remember I'm fucking serving a
table there's a dude in a Batman mask
butt naked with 12 pairs of beads just
jerking it yeah back to jerking it he's
jerking it right and every every single
person at the restaurant's looking out
there like look they're taking pictures
and the manager Sten looks at me he like
keep your fucking eyes on the table so
I'm serving these people you know I'm
like you want you like red beans and
rice or would you like some Creo fucking
and uh there's just this dude and you
know ultimately the manager went out and
you know escorted him further down
Bourbon Street but you know I would get
off work at around midnight every night
and that was when Bourbon Street is at
its most chaotic and so I lived in the
French Quarter as well so I lived I
lived about 12 blocks down bourbon on at
a in a small Creo Cott a cute little
like orange Old School New Orleans one
story spot I lived in the Attic above
these uh these gay meth dealers named
Frankie and Johnny oh wow and so I would
get off work and I would basically have
to walk through like this battlefield I
mean it was a battlefield getting home
was out of like the Warriors movie it
was of Humanity on display yeah it was
like Kensington Philadelphia but just
alcohol you know what I mean oh it's all
alcohol but it's a lot of a lot of
visitors right from outside almost all
visitors yeah and that that kind of
would set the flow for the weekend for
example if the Raiders were playing the
Saints Raider Nation and they do not
play around if it's the Patriots that's
a whole different crowd they think
they're better than everybody else yeah
well they technically are better than
everybody else but yeah but people from
Massachusetts aren't like the cream of
the crop in terms of like American
superiority strong words yeah no no
offense but I mean no that's I'm sure
they won't take that as much they are
good at fighting though I'll tell you
that all right great New England has
hands compared to some places which
places are those Colorado Colorado has
no hands
yeah the West Coast not too much hand
that's why you feel safe talking shit
about Colorado but if you get to the
cornfed parts of East Colorado I mean
these guys got hands bigger than my head
they'll beat the shit out of me but
anyways I'd walk back to uh to my house
on Bourbon Street and I would be sifting
through this battlefield and I had a
friend at the time who's like yo we
should do a a taxi capab confessions
type spin-off where we ask people to
confess a deep dark secret and we posted
the next day and so we we tried that and
it went viral on Instagram instantly it
was mostly incest stories you know
people admitting to incest I know it's a
common Southern stereotype but there's
some truth to it uh there was some
murder confessions that was pretty crazy
uh we never really posted any of those
but how did you get people to confess
pretty easy and New Orleans has a
homicide solve rate of like 22% so I
mean most of the time they'll they'll
just tell you I remember I was I was
walking down Bourbon and I asked this
kid I was like what's your deepest dark
of secret and he told me he's like I
just smoked a dude in the Magnolia it's
a project hous in the third W project
development and they said I just smoked
a dude in the Magnolia playground for
touching my sister molesting his sister
and I was like what and he was like yeah
look it up and I was like all right hold
on and it it was like man found dead in
Central City playground like a appeared
to be homeless shot execution style so I
told the kid I was like why'd you tell
me that he's like man put that shit out
there like I'm trying to go viral like
tag me too oh wow I don't think you
understand that even if you're a
juvenile he was probably 15 you can go
you can get juvenile life in Louisiana
for a homicide even if it's you