Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Kevin spacy a two-time Oscar winning
actor who has starred in seven The Usual
Suspects American Beauty and House of
Cards he is one of the greatest actors
ever creating haunting performances of
characters who often embody the Dark
Side of human nature 7 years ago he was
cut from House of Cards and cancelled by
Hollywood in the world when Anthony rap
made an allegation that Kevin spacy
sexually abused in
1986 Anthony rap then filed a civil
lawsuit seeking $40
million in this trial and all civil and
criminal trials that followed Kevin was
acquitted he has never been found guilty
nor liable in the court of
law in this conversation Kevin makes
clear what he did and what he didn't do
I also encourage you to listen to
Kevin's Dan Wooten and Allison Pearson
interviews for additional details and
responses to the
allegations as an aside let me say that
one of the principles I operate under
for this podcast and in life is that I
will talk with everyone with empathy and
with
backbone for each guest I hope to
explore their life's work life's story
and what and how they think and do so on
honestly and fully The Good the Bad and
the Ugly the Brilliance and the
flaws I won't whitewash their sins but I
won't reduce them to a worst possible
caricature of their sins either the
latter is what the mass hysteria of
Internet mobs too often does often
rushing to a final judgment before the
facts are in I will try to do better
than that to respect due process in
service of the truth
and I hope to have the courage to always
think independently and to speak
honestly from the heart even when the
eyes of the outrage mob are on
me again my goal is to understand human
beings at their best and at their worst
and hope is such understanding leads to
more compassion and wisdom in the
world I will make mistakes and when I do
I will work hard to improve
I love you
all this is the Lex Freedman podcast to
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in the description and now dear friends
here's Kevin
spacy you played a serial killer in the
movie 7 your performance was one of if
not the greatest portrayal of a murderer
on screen ever what was your process of
becoming him John Doe the serial killer
the truth is I didn't get the
part um I had been in Los Angeles making
a couple of films swimming of sharks and
Usual Suspects and then I did a film
called
outbreak that Morgan Freeman was
in and I went into audition for David
Fincher in probably late November of
94 and I audition for this part and
didn't get it and I went back to New
York and I think they started shooting
like December
12th and I'm in New York I'm back in my
I have a wonderful apartment on West
12th Street and my mom has come to visit
for Christmas and it's December
23rd and it's like 7:00 at night and my
phone rings and it's Arnold son who's
the producer of
seven and he's very jovial and he's very
friendly and he says how you doing and I
said fine and he said listen do you
remember that film you came in 47 I said
yeah yeah absolutely he goes Well turns
out that uh we hired an actor and we
started shooting and then yesterday
David fired
him and David would like you to get on a
plane on Sunday and come to Los Angeles
and start shooting on
Tuesday and I was
like
okay would it be imposing to say Can can
I read it again because it's it's been a
while now and I'd like to so they send a
script
over I read the script that
night I thought about
it
um and I I had this feeling I I I I I
can't even quite describe it but I had
this feeling
that it would be really good if I didn't
take billing in the film and the reason
I felt that was because I knew that by
the time this film would come out it
would be the last one of the three
movies that I just shot the fourth one
and if any of those Films Broke through
or did well if it was going to be Brad
pit Morgan Freeman gwenth palro and
Kevin spy and you don't show up for the
first 25 30 40 minutes people going to
figure out who you're playing so people
should know that you are the serial you
play the serial killer in the movie and
serial killer shows up like more than
halfway through the mie very late and
when you say billing is like the posters
the VHS cover everything you're gone
you're not there not there and so new
line Cinema uh told me to go fuck myself
um that they absolutely could use my
picture and my
image and this became a little bit of a
I'd say
24hour
conversation and it was Fincher who said
I actually think this is a really cool
idea so the compromise was I'm the first
credit at the end of the
movie when the credits start so I got on
a plane on that Sunday and I flew to Los
Angeles and I went into where they were
shooting and I went into the makeup room
and David Fincher was there and we were
talking about what should I do how
should I how should I look and I just
had my hair short for outbreak cuz I was
playing a
military uh character and I just looked
at
the hairdresser and I said do you have a
razor and finer went are you kidding I
said no he goes if you shave your head
I'll shave
mine so we both shaved our
heads and then I started shooting the
next day
so my long-winded answer to your
question is that I didn't have that much
time to think about how to build that
character what I think in the end
Fincher was able to do so
brilliantly with such
Terror was to set the audience
up to meet this character I think the
the last scene the ending scene and the
car ride leading up to it where it's
mostly on
you in conversation with Morgan Freeman
and Brad Pit it's one of the greatest
scenes in film history so people somehow
didn't see the movie there's these five
murders that happen that are inspired by
five of the seven deadly sins and the
the ending scene is inspired represents
the last two deadly
sins and there's
this calm
subtlety uh about you in your
performance it's just terrifying maybe
in contrast with Brad Pit performance
that's also really strong but that the
contrast in the contrast is the
terrifying uh sense that you get in the
audience that builds up to The Twist at
the end or the surprise at the end with
the famous what's in the box from Brad
Pit right that is Brad Pitt's
character's wife her head yeah I I I can
really only tell you that while we were
shooting that scene in the car while we
were out in
the in the desert in that place where
all those electrical wires were David
just kept saying
less do less
um and I just tried to I mean he I
remember he kept saying to me
remember you're in
control like you're going to
win and knowing that should allow you to
have tremendous
confidence and I just followed that lead
and I I just think it's the kind of film
that
so many of the
elements that had been at work from the
beginning of the movie in terms of its
style in terms of how he built this
Terror in terms of how he built for the
audience a sense of this person being
one of the scariest people they might
ever
encounter um is it really allowed me to
be able to not have to do that much just
say the words and mean
them and I think it also
is it's an example of
what makes tragedy
so
um
difficult I mean you know very often
tragedy is people operating without
enough information they don't have all
the facts Romy and Juliet they don't
have all the facts they don't know what
we know as an
audience and so in the the
end
whether Brad Pitt's
character ends
up shooting John Doe or turning the gun
on himself which was a discussion I mean
there were there were a number of
alternative endings that were discussed
um nothing ends up being tied up in a
nice little bow it is complicated and
shows how nobody wins in the
end when you're not operating with all
the
information when you say say the words
and mean them what does mean
them
mean I've uh I've been very fortunate to
be directed by Fincher a couple of
times and
um he would say to me
sometimes I don't believe a thing that
is coming out of your mouth shall we try
it
again and you
go okay yeah we can try it again and
sometimes he'll do
take and then you'll look to see if he
has any added um genius to to to hand
you and he just goes let's do it again
and then let's do it again and some
sometimes I I I say this in all humility
he's literally trying to beat the acting
out of
you and and and by continually saying do
it again do it again do it again and not
giving you any
specifics he's he is he is
systematically shredding you of all
pretense of all you know cuz look very
often you know actors we come in on the
set and we've thought about the scene
and we've worked out you know I've got
this prop and I'm going to do this thing
with a can I'm you know all these thing
all the tea I'm going to do a thing with
the thing that and and David is the kind
of director where he just wants you to
stop adding all that crap and just say
the words and say them
quickly and mean them and it takes a
while to get to that place I I'll tell
you a story this is a story I just love
because it's it's it's it's in the
exactly the same wheelhouse so Jack
lemon's first movie was a film called it
should happen to you and was directed by
George cuer and Jack tells this story
and it was just an incredibly Charming
story to hear Jack tell he said so I I
I'm doing his picture and let me tell
you I this is a terrific part for me and
I'm doing a scene it's on my first day
it's my first day and it's a terrific
scene and he goes we we do the first
take and and and George cuer comes up to
me and he says Jack I said yeah he said
could you do let's do another one but
just do a little less uh in in this one
and Jack said a little a little less a
little less than what I just did he said
yeah just a little less so he goes we do
another take and and I think boy that
was it I mean let's let's just go home
and uh cuer walked up to it and said
Jack i' let's do another one this time
just a little bit less and Jack said let
less than what I just did now he said
yeah just a little bit less he goes oh
okay so he did another take and cuer
came up and he said Jack just a little
bit less and Jack said a little less
than what I just did he said yes he go
well if I do any less I'm not going to
be acting and cuer said exactly Jack
exactly I mean I guess what you're
saying is it's extremely difficult to
get to the the bottom of a little less
because the power if we just stick even
on seven of your performance is in the
tiniest of subtleties like when you say
oh you didn't know and you turn your
head a little bit and a little bit like
the the little bit maybe a glimmer of a
smile appears on your face that's
subtlety that's less that's hard to get
to I I suppose yeah and also because I I
I I so well
remember I think the work that Brad did
in and also Morgan did in that scene but
the work that Brad had to do where he
had to go I remember rehearsing with him
as we were all staying at this little
hotel nearby that location and we
rehearsed the night before we started
shooting that sequence and I just I mean
it was just incredible to
see the levels of emotions he had to go
through and then the
decision of what do I
do because if I do what he wants me to
do then he wins but if I don't do it
then I'm what kind of a man husband am I
uh I just thought he did really
incredible work so it was also not easy
to not react to to the to the power of
what he was throwing at me um I just
thought it was an
extraordinary um a really extraordinary
scene so what's it like being in that
scene so it's you Brad Pit Morgan
Freeman and Brad Pit is going over the
top just having a mental
breakdown and is weighing these
extremely difficult moral choices as
you're saying but he's like screaming
and in pain and tormented
while you're very subtly
smiling in terms of the writing and in
terms of what the characters had to do
was it was incredible culmination of how
this
character
um could manipulate in the way that he
did and and in the
end
succeed you mentioned Fincher likes to
do a lot of takes that's the the famous
thing about David Fincher
so what are the pros and cons of that I
think I I read that he
does some crazy amount he averages 25 to
65 uh takes and most directors do less
than
10 so yeah sometimes it's timing
sometimes it's literally he has a
stopwatch and he's he's timing how long
a scene is taking and then he'll
say you need to take a minute off this
scene
like a minute yeah a minute off this
scene I want it to move like this so
let's pick it up let's pick up the pace
let's take let's see if we can take a
minute off why the speed why why say it
fast is the important thing for you
think I think because Fincher hates
Indulgence and he wants he wants people
to talk the way they do in
life which is you know we don't take
big dramatic pauses yeah right you know
before we speak we speak we say what we
want we you know and I guess actors like
the dramatic pauses and the the the
indulge in the dramatic they didn't
always like the dramatic pauses I mean
look you didn't want to you go back any
student of acting you go back to the 30s
and the 40s
50s the speed at which actors
spoke not just in the comedies which of
course you know you look at any Preston
Sturges movie and it's incredible how
fast people are talking and how and how
funny things are when they happen that
fast um but then you know acting Styles
changed we got into a different kind of
thing in the late 50s and 60s and and uh
you know a lot of actors are feeling it
which is I'm not saying it's it's a it's
a bad thing it's just that if you want
to keep an audience engaged as Fincher
does and I believe successfully does in
all of his
work um
Pace
timing
movement Clarity
speed are admirable to achieve and all
of that he wants the actor to be as
natural as possible to strip away all
the bullshit of
acting and become human look lucky with
other directors Sam mes is similar I
remember when I walked in to maybe the
first rehearsal for Richard III that we
were doing and I had brought with me a a
canopy of of ailments that my Richard
was going to suffer from uh and uh Sam
you know eventually whittled it down to
like three like maybe your arm and maybe
thing and maybe your leg but let's get
rid of the other 10 things that you
brought into the room because I was you
know I was so excited to you know
capture this character so you know very
often uh Trevor nun is this way a lot a
lot of wonderful directors I've worked
with they're really good at helping you
trim and
edit David Fincher said about you he was
talking in general I think but also
specifically in the moment of hos cars
said that you have exceptional skill
both as an actor and as a performer
former which he says are different
things so he defines the former as
dramatization of a text and the latter
as the seduction of an
audience do you
see uh wisdom in that distinction and
what does it take to do both the
dramatization of a text and the
seduction of an
audience those are two very interesting
descriptions um when I think I guess
when I think performer
I tend to think entertaining I tend to
think uh I tend to think comedy I tend
to think winning over an audience I tend
to think um that there's something about
um that quality of wanting to of wanting
to have people enjoy
themselves um and when you saddle that
against what maybe he means as an actor
which is which is which is which is more
dramatic or more more text driven more
um look I've I've always believed that
my that my job not every actor feels
this way but my job the way that I've
looked at it is that my job is to serve
the
writing and that if I serve the writing
I
will in a sense serve myself because
I'll be in the right World I'll be in
the right context I'll be in the right
style I I I'll I'll have embraced what a
director's you know um it's not my
painting it's someone else's painting
I'm a series of colors and someone
else's
painting and the barometer for me has
always been that when
people stop me and talk to
me about a character I've played and
reference their
name as if they actually exist
that's when I feel like I've gotten
close to doing my
job yeah one of the challenges for me in
this conversation is remembering that
your name is Kevin not Frank or John or
any of these
characters because they live deeply in
the psyche to me that's the
greatest that's the greatest
um um compliment for me as an actor um
I I I love being able to go I mean when
I think
about performers who inspire
me and I remember when I was young and I
was introduced to Spencer
Tracy Henry Fonda Katherine
heern I just I believed who they were I
knew nothing about them they were just
these extraordinary characters doing
this extraordinary stuff and then I
think
more um
recently
contemporary when I think of the work
that Philip seamour Hoffman did and
Heath Ledger and people that
that when I think about what they could
be doing what they could do what they
would have done had they stayed with us
um I'm so ex I'm so excited when I when
I go into a cinema or I go into play and
I completely am taken to some place that
I believe exists and characters that
that become real and those characters
become like
lifelong companions like for me they
travel with you and even if it's the
darkest aspects of human nature they're
always there it's they almost like I
feel like I almost met them and gotten
to know them and gotten to become like
friends with them almost Hannibal Lecter
whether it's the or or Force Gump mhm I
mean I've I feel like I'm like best
friends with for for Gump I know the guy
and I guess he's played by some guy
named Tom but like force Gump is the the
guy I'm friends with yeah and I think
that everybody feels like that when
they're in the audience with great
characters they just kind of they become
part of you in some some way the dark
the The Good the Bad and the Ugly of
them one of the things that I that I
feel that I try to do uh in my
work is when I read something for the
first time when I read a script or a
play and I am
absolutely devastated by it it is it is
the most extraordinary the most
beautiful the most life affirming or
terrifying it's then a process weirdly
of working
backwards
because I want to work in such a way
that that's the experience I give to the
audience when they first see it that
they have the experience I had when I
read
it I remember that there's been times in
the creative process
when something was pointed out to me or
something was I I I I remember I was
doing a play and I was having this
really tough time with a one of the last
scenes in the play and I just couldn't
figure it out I was in rehearsal and
although we had a director in that play
I I called another a friend of mine who
was also director and I and I had him
come over and I said look this scene I'm
just having the toughest I cannot seem
to crack this scene and so we we read it
through a couple of times and then this
this wonderful director named John
swanbeck who would eventually direct me
in a film called the Big Kahuna but this
is before that um he said to me the most
incredible thing he just said um all
right what's the last line you have in
this scene before you fall over and fall
asleep and I said the last line is a
that last drink the old KO and he went
okay I want you to think about what that
line actually
means and then work
backwards and so he left and I sort of
was left with this what like what does
that mean how am I supposed to and then
like a couple of days went by a couple
of days went by and I thought okay so
said what is that line actually mean
well that last drink the old
ko ko
is
knockout which is a boxing
term it's the only boxing term the
writer uses in the play and then I went
back and I realized my friend was so
smart and so incredible to have you know
said ask a question you haven't thought
of asking yet I realized that the
playwright wrote the last round the
eighth round between these two brothers
and it was a
fight physical as well as emotional and
when I brought that into the rehearsal
room to the director was doing that play
he liked that idea and we staged that
scene as if it was the eighth round
although audience wouldn't have known
that but just what I loved about that
was that somebody said to
me ask yourself a question you haven't
asked yourself yet what does that line
mean and then work backwards what is
that like a a catalyst for thinking
deeply about what is magical about this
play this story this narrative that
that's what that is like thinking
backwards that's what that does yeah and
but also because it's just it's it's
this
incredible why didn't I think to ask
that question myself that's what you
have directors for that's what you have
you know so many places where ideas can
come from um but that just illustrates
that even though in my brain I go I
always like to work backwards I I missed
it in that one and I'm very grateful to
my to my friend for having pushed me
into being able to realize what that
meant and to ask the interesting
question the I like the the poetry and
the humility of I'm just a series of
colors in someone else's
painting that was a good
line uh that said you've talked about
improvisation you said that it's all
about the ability to do it again and
again again and again and yet never make
it the same and you also just said that
you you're trying to stay true to the
text so where's the room for
the improvisation that it's never the
same well there's two slightly different
contexts I think one is in the rehearsal
room um improvisation could be a
wonderful device I mean Sam meny for
example will will start uh he'll start a
scene and he he does this wonderful
thing he brings rugs and he brings
chairs and Sofas in and he says well
let's let's put let's put two chairs
here and here you guys let's start in
these chairs far apart from each other
let's see what happens with the scene if
if you're that far apart and so we'll do
the scene that way and then he goes okay
um let's bring a rug in and let's bring
these chairs much closer and let's see
what happens if if if the space if the
space between you is and so then you you
you try it that way and then you know
it's a little harder in Shakespeare to
impro of um but in any situation where
you you want to try and see where where
could a seene go where would the scene
go if I didn't make that choice where
would the scene go if I made this choice
where would the scene go if I didn't say
that or I said something else so that's
how improv can be um a valuable process
to learn um about limits and and
boundaries um
and what's going on with a a character
that somehow you discover in in in
trying something that isn't on the
page then there's the different thing
which is the trying to make it fresh and
trying to make it new and that is really
a reference to
theater
um I'll put it to you this way
[Music]
um anybody loves sports right so you go
and you watch on a pitch you watch on a
tennis game you watch basketball you
watch
football yeah the rules are the same but
it's a different game every time you're
out on that court or on that
field it's no different in
theater yes it's the same lines maybe
even
blocking is
similar but what's different is attack
intention how you are growing in a role
and watching your fellow actors grow in
theirs and how every night it's a new
audience and they're reacting
differently and you literally where you
can go from week one of performances in
a play to week
12 is
extraordinary and the difference
between theater and film
is that no matter how good someone might
think you are in a
movie you'll never be any
better it's frozen whereas I can be
better tomorrow night than I was tonight
I can be better in a week than I was
tonight it is a
living
breathing shifting changing growing
thing every single day but also in
theater there's no safety net if you
fuck it
up everybody gets to see you do that and
if you start giggling on stage everyone
gets to see you do that too which I am
very guilty
of I mean there is
something uh of a seduction of an
audience in theater even more intense
than there is when you're talking about
film just I got a chance to watch the
documentary now in the wings on a world
stage which is uh behind the scenes of
you mentioned uh you teaming up with Sam
Mendes in 2011 to Stage Richard
III uh a play by William Shakespeare I
was also surprised to learn you haven't
really done much Shakespeare or at least
you said that in the uh in the movie but
there's a lot of interesting behind the
scenes stuff there uh first of all the
camaraderie of everybody how
like the bond theater creates especially
when you're
traveling but the another interesting
thing you mentioned with the chairs of
Sam man is trying different stuff it
seemed like everybody was really open to
trying stuff embarrassing themselves
taking risks all of that I suppose
that's part of acting in general but
theater especially just take risks it's
okay to embarrass the shit out of
yourself including the
director and it's also because um you
become a family you know it's unlike a
movie where you know I might have a
scene with so and so on this day and
then another scene with them in a week
and a half and then that's the only
scenes we have in the whole movie
together um every single day when you
show up in the rehearsal room it's the
whole
company you're all up for it every day
you're learning you're growing you're
trying and and there is a um an
incredible
trust that
happens and I was of course fortunate
that that some of the some of the things
I learned and observed about um being a
part of that family being included in
that family and and being a part of
creating that family I I I was able to
observe from from people like Jack Lemon
who Who led many companies that that I
was fortunate to to work in and and and
be a part of there's also a sad moment
where at the end everybody is really sad
to say goodbye because you do form a
family and then it's
over I guess somebody said that that's
just part of theater it's like I mean
there's a kind of assumed goodbye and
that this is it yeah and also there are
sometimes when like 6 months later I'll
wake up in the middle of the night and
I'll
go that's how to play that
scene yeah oh God I just finally figured
it
out so maybe you could speak a little
bit more to that what's the difference
between film acting and live theater
acting I don't really think there is any
I think there's just
you eventually learn about yourself on
film you know when I first did like my
first episode of The Equalizer um you
know it's just it's just it's horrible
it's just so bad um but I didn't know
about myself I didn't so slowly you
begin to learn about yourself but I
think good acting is good acting and I
think that you know if you if a camera
is right here you you know that your
your front row is also your back row you
just don't have to you don't have to do
so much there is in theater a particular
kind of energy almost like an athlete
that you have to have vocally to be able
to get up seven performances a week and
never lose your voice and always be
there and always be alive and always be
doing the best work you can that you
just don't require in film you know you
don't have to have the same um
it it just doesn't require the same uh
kind of stamina that doing a play does
it just feels like also in theater you
have to become the character more
intensely because you can't take a break
you can't take a bathroom break you're
like on stage there's no this is you
yeah but you have no idea what's going
on on stage with the actors I mean I I I
have I have literally laughed through
speeches that I had to give because my
fellow actors were carrots up their nose
or broccoli in their ears or doing
whatever they were doing to make me
laugh so they're just having fun they're
having the time of their life and by the
way Judy Dench is the worst giggler of
all yeah I mean they had to bring the
curtain down on her and Maggie Smith
because they were laughing so hard they
could not continue the play so even when
you're doing like a dramatic monologue
still they're still fucking with you
there's stuff okay that's great that's
good to know you also said interesting
line that improvisation
helps
you uh learn about the
character uh can you explain that so
like through maybe playing with the
different ways of saying the words or
the different ways to bring the words to
life you get to learn about yourself
about the character you're playing it
can be helpful
um but improv is I'm a big such a big
believer in the in the the writing and
in serving the writing and doing the
words the writer
wrote um that improv for for me unless
you're just doing like comedy and you
know like I mean I love improv and in
comedy it's it's brilliant um so much
fun to watch people just come up with
something right there um but you're you
know that that's where you're looking
for laughs and you're you're
specifically in a little scene that's
being created um but I think improv is
has has had value
um but I I I have not experienced it as
much in doing
plays um as I have sometimes in doing in
doing film where you'll you'll start off
rehearsing and a director may say let's
just go off book and see what happens
and I've had moments in film where
someone went off book and it was
terrifying there was a scene I had in
Glen Gary Glenn rth
where the character I play has has
fucked something up it's just screwed
something up and Pacino is
living and so we had the scene where Al
is walking like this and the camera is
moving with him and he is shoo me a new
asshole and in the middle of the take Al
starts talking about me
oh Kevin you don't think we know how you
got this job you don't think we know
whose dick you've been sucking on to get
this part in this movie and I'm
now I'm literally like I don't I don't
know what the hell is
happening but I'm
reacting we got to the end of that take
Al walked up to me and he went
oh that was so good
oh my God that was so good just so you
know the sound I asked them not to
record so you have no dialogue so it's
just me oh that was so good you look you
look like a car wreck yeah and I was
like
yeah and it was actually an incredibly
generous thing that he gave me so that I
would
react oh wow did they use that shot
because you were shot it was my closeup
yeah yeah and yeah that's the take that
was an intense intera I mean what was it
like if we can just Linger on that just
that intense scene with
alucino well he's the reason I got the
movie A lot of people might think
because Jack was in the film that he had
something to do with it but actually I
was doing a play called Lost and Yonkers
on Broadway and we had the same dresser
who worked with him a girl named Laura
it was wonderful uh Laura Bey and uh
she told Al that he should come and see
this play because she wanted to see me
in this play I was playing this gangster
it was fun fun fun part so I didn't know
Pacino came on some night and saw this
play and then like three days later I
got a call to come in an audition for
this Glen greglen Ross which of course I
knew is a play David Mambo's
play and then
uh I auditioned Jamie Foley was the
director who would eventually direct a
bunch of House of Cards wonderful
wonderful
guy and I got the part well I didn't
quite get the part they were going to
bring together the actors that they
thought they were going to give the
parts to on a Saturday at Al's office
and they asked me if I would come and do
a read through and I said who's going to
be there and they said well so and so
and so and so and so then Jack Lemon is
flying and I said don't tell Mr Lemon
that I'm doing the readr is that
possible they were like sure so I'll
never forget this Jack was sitting in a
chair in Pacino's office doing the New
York Times crossword puzzle as he did
every day like this and I walked in the
door and he went oh Jesus Christ is it
possible you could get a job without me
Jesus Christ I'm so tired of holding up
your end of it oh my God
Jesus um so that's I got the job job
because of a Pacino and and you know I I
was it was it was really one of the
first major roles that I ever had in a
film and you know to be working with
that group yeah that's like one of the
greatest Ensemble casts ever we got Al
Pacino Jack Lemon Alec Baldwin Alan Arin
Ed Harris
you Jonathan price it's just incredible
and I would have to say I mean maybe you
can comment you've You' you've talked
about how how much of a mentor and a
friend Jack Clem has been that's one of
his greatest performances ever ever you
have a scene at the end of the movie
with him that was really powerful like
firing on all cylinders you're playing
disdain to Perfection and he's playing
desperation to
Perfection what a scene what was that
like just like at the top of your game
the two of you well by that time we had
done long day journey tonight in the
theater we' done a minseries called the
murder of Mary figan on NBC we done a
film called
Dad that Gary David Goldberg directed
with Ted dansen so this was the fourth
time we were working together and we
knew each other we become he become my
father
figure and and I don't know if you know
that I originally met Jack Lemon when I
was very very
young he was doing a production at the
marer form of a Shan O Casey play called
Juno and the peock with Walter Matthau
and Marine Stapleton and on a Saturday
in December of
1974 my Junior High School drama class
went to a workshop it was called how to
audition and we did this Workshop many
schools in Southern California were part
of this drama Teachers Association so we
got these incredible experiences of
being able to go see professional
Productions and be involved in these
workshops or festivals so I had to get
up and do a monologue in front of Mr
Lemon when I was 13 years old
and he walked up to me at the end of
that and he put his hand on my shoulder
and he said that was a such terrific he
said no I everything I've been talking
about you just did yeah what's your name
I said Kevin he said wellit let me tell
you something when you get finished with
high schools I'm sure you're going to go
on and do theater you should go to New
York and you should study to be an actor
because this is what you're meant to do
with your
life and he was like an
idol and 12 years
later I read in the New York Times that
he was coming to Broadway to do this
production of a Long Day's Journey
tonight a year and some months after I
read this article and I was like I'm
going to play Jamie in that
production and I
then with a lot of
opposition because the cast and director
didn't want to see me they they said
that the director Jonathan Miller uh
Wanted movie actors to play the two
sons and ultimately I I uh I found out
that Jonathan Miller the director was
coming to New York to do a series of
lectures at Alice Tully Hall and I uh
went to try to figure out how I could
maybe meet
him and
uh I was sitting in that theater
listening to this incredible lexury he
was doing and sitting next to me was an
elderly
woman I mean elderly 80 something and
she was asleep
but sticking out of her handbag which
was on the floor was
a invitation to a cocktail reception in
honor of Dr Jonathan Miller and so I I
thought you know she's tired she's
probably going to go home so I I I took
that and walked into this cocktail
reception and ultimately went over to Dr
Miller who was incredibly kind and said
you sit down always very curious what
brings young people to my lectures and I
said to him Eugene O'Neal brought me
here and he was like what what what I've
always wanted to meet him where is he
and I told him that I'd been trying
for 7 months to get an audition for long
day journey and that his American
casting directors were telling my agents
that he wanted big American movie stars
and at that moment he turned and he saw
one of those casting director who was
there that night CU I knew he was going
to be in New York starting auditions
that
week and she was staring daggers at
me and he just got it and he said to
someone have a pen and he took the
little paper started writing he said
listen Kevin there there are many
situations in which casting directors
have a lot of say and a lot of power and
a lot of Leverage and then there are
other situations where they just take
director's messages and on this one
they're taking my messages this is where
I'm St make sure you people get to me we
start auditions on
Thursday and on Thursday I had an
opportunity to come in and audition for
this play that I've been working on and
preparing
and at the end of it I did four scenes
at the end of it he said to me that
unless someone else came in and blew him
against the wall like I had just done as
far as he was concerned I pretty much
had the part but I couldn't tell my
agents that yet because I had to come
back and read with Mr Lemon
and so 3 months later in August of
1985 I found myself in a room with Jack
Lemon again at 890 Broadway which is
where they rehearse a lot of Broadway
plays and we did four scenes together
and I was toppling over him I was
pushing him I was I was
relentless and I'll never forget at the
end of
that lemon came over to me he put his
hand on my shoulder and he said that
would you should touch a terrific I
never thought we'd find the rotten kid
but he's it Jesus Christ what the hell
was
that and I ended up spending the next
year of my life with that
man so it turns out he was
right yeah this world works in
mysterious ways it also speaks to the
fact of the power of somebody you look
up to giving words of encouragement CU
those can just reverberate through your
whole life and just like make the path
clear I've always we used to we used to
joke that uh if every contract came with
a Jack Lemon Clause it would be a more
beautiful
world beautifully said Jack Lemon is one
of the greatest actors ever what do you
think makes him so damn
good wow
um I think he I I think he truly set out
in his
life to accomplish what his father said
to him on his
deathbed his father was Dy his father
was by the way called the dut King in
Boston and uh not in the entertainment
business at all he was literally owned a
doughnut company and uh when he was
passing away Jack said the last thing my
father said to me was go out there and
spread a little sunshine
shine and I truly think that's what
Jack loved to
do I remember this
um and I don't know if this is uh will
answer your question but I think it's
revealing about what he's able to do and
what he was able to do and how that
ultimately influenced what I was able to
do Sam endes had never directed a film
before American
Beauty and so what he did was he took
the best elements of theater and applied
them to the process so we rehearsed it
like a
play in a sound stage where everything
was laid out like it would be in a play
and this couch will be
here
and he'd sent me a couple of tapes he'd
sent me a two cassette tapes one that
he' likeed to call pre- Lester before he
begins to um move in a New Direction and
then post Lester and they just were
different songs
um and then he said to me one day and I
think always thought this was brilliant
of Sam to use lemon knowing what lemon
meant to
me he said when was the last time you
watched the
apartment and I saidh I don't know I
mean I love that movie so much he goes I
want you to watch it again and then
let's talk
so I went and I watched the movie
again and we sat down and Sam
said what lemon does in that film is
incredible because there is never a
moment in the movie where we see him
change he just
evolves and he becomes the man he
becomes because of the experiences that
he has the course of the film but
there's this remarkable consistency in
who he becomes and that's what I need
you to do is Lester I don't want the
audience to ever see him
change I want him to evolve and so we
did some I mean first of all it was just
a great
Direction and then second of all we did
some things that people don't know we
did to Aid that gradual
shift of that man's character first of
all I had to be in the best shape from
the beginning of the movie because we
didn't shoot it in sequence so I was in
this crazy shape I had this wonderful uh
trainer named Mike torsa who just was
incredible but so what we did was in
order to then show this gradual shift
was I had three different hair
pieces I had three different kinds of
costumes of different colors and
sizes and I had different makeup so in
the beginning I was wearing a kind of
drab dull
slightly you know uninspired hairpiece
and my makeup was kind of gray and
boring and I was a little bit there were
times when I was like too much like this
and Sam would go Kevin you look like
Walter Matha would you please stand up a
little bit we're sort of Midway through
at this point and the then at a certain
point the wig changed and it had little
highlights in it a little more color a
little more the makeup became a little
the the suits got a little tighter and
then finally a third wig that was golden
highlights and sunshine and and you know
rosy cheeks and tight fit and these are
what we call theatrical tricks you know
this is this is how you an audience
doesn't even know it's happening but it
is this gradual and I just always felt
that that was such
a um a brilliant
way because he knew what I felt about
Jack and when you watch the apartment it
is
extraordinary that he doesn't ever
change he just so I'm
I'm and in fact I I thanked Jack um when
I won the
Oscar and
uh he
I I did my thank you speech and I walked
off stage and I remember I had to sit
down for a moment because I didn't want
to go I didn't want to go to The Press
Room because I wanted to see if Sam was
going to
win and so I was waiting and my phone
rang and it was lemon he said you're a
son of a bitch I said I said what he
goes first of all congratulations and
thanks for thanking me cuz you know God
knows you couldn't have done it without
me he said second of all he said you
know how long it took me to win from
supporting actor I wanted for Mr Roberts
and it took me like 10 12 years to win
Oscar you did it in four you son of a
bitch
yeah the apartment was I mean it's
widely considered one of the greatest
movies
ever people sometimes refer to as a
comedy which is an interesting kind of
classification I suppose that's a lesson
about comedy that the
best uh the best comedy is the one
that's basically a tragedy well I mean
some people think Clockwork Orange is a
comedy and I'm not saying there aren't
some good laughs in Clockwork Orange but
yeah you know it's I mean yeah what's
that line
between uh comedy and tragedy for
you I well I if it's a line it's a line
I cross all the time
because I've tried
always to find the
humor um unexpected sometimes uh maybe
inappropriate sometimes maybe
shocking but I've tried in I think
almost every dramatic role I've had to
have a sense of humor and to be able to
bring
that uh along with everything else that
is
serious because
frankly that's how we deal with stuff in
life you know I think uh Sam menz
actually said in the N
documentary something
like with great theater with with great
stories you find humor on the journey to
the Heart of Darkness something like
this very poetic stood to me I'm sorry I
can't be that poetic I'm very sorry but
it's true I mean the the the people have
interacted in this world have been to a
war zone
and the ones who have lost the most and
have suffered the most are are usually
the ones who are able
to uh make jokes the quickest and the
jokes are often dark and absurd and
cross every single line no political
correctness all of that sure well I mean
you know it's like uh the great Mary
Tyler Moore Show where they can't stop
giggling at at the Clown funeral I mean
it's it's just one of the great episodes
ever you know giggling at a funeral is
as bad as farting at a funeral and you
know I'm I'm sure that there's some
people who've done
both oh man uh so you mentioned American
Beauty and the idea of
uh not changing but evolving that's
really interesting because that movie is
about like finding
yourself it's a it's a philosophically
profound movie it's about various
characters in their own ways finding
their own identity in a world where um
maybe a system of a materialistic system
that wants you to be like everyone else
and so I mean Lester is really
transforms himself throughout the movie
and you're saying the challenge there is
to still be the same human being
fundamentally yeah and I also think that
the film
was
powerful because you had three very
honest and genuine portrayal of young
people and then you had Lester behaving
like a young person um doing things that
were unexpected and and uh and I think
that
um the honesty with which it dealt with
those uh issues that those teenagers
were going through and the honesty with
which it dealt with what Lester was
going through um I think our some of the
reasons why the film had the response
that it
did from so many people I mean I I used
to get
stopped and someone would say to me when
I first saw American Beauty I was
married and the second time I saw it I
wasn't and I was like well we weren't
trying to increase the divorce rate you
know that wasn't Our intention but it is
interesting how so many people
um have those kinds of crazy
fantasies and what
I admired so much about who Lester was
as a person why I wanted to play him is
because in the end he makes the right
decision I think a lot of people live
lives of quiet desperation
in a in a job they don't
like in a marriage they're unhappy in
and to see
somebody living that life and then
saying fuck
it in every way possible and not just in
a cynical way but in a way that opens
them opens Lester up to see the beauty
in the world that's you know the beauty
in American Beauty it's well and you
know you may have to Blackmail your boss
to get there but you know
and in that there's a bunch of humor
also in the uh in the anger and
the in the absurdity of sort of taking a
stand against the Conformity of
Life there there's there's humor and um
I read somewhere that the scene the
dinner scene which is kind of play likee
where
Lester slams the plate against the wall
was improvised by you the uh the
slamming of the plate against the wall
no no absolutely the internet absolutely
absolutely uh uh written and and
directed
uh um yeah can't take credit for that
the plate okay well that was a that was
a genius interaction there um there's
something about the dinner
table and losing your shit at the dinner
table having a fight and losing your
shit at the dinner table um where where
else like Yellowstone
was another situation where it's a
family at the dinner table and then one
of them says fucking I'm not eating this
anymore and I'm going to create a scene
right it's a beautiful kind of
environment for dramatic scenes or or
Nicholson in The Shining I
mean there's some there's some family
scenes gone ay in that movie The
contrast between you and Annette Benning
in that
scene creates The Genius of that scene
so how much of acting is the dance
between two
actors well with an
nette I just adored working with her and
we were the two actors that Sam wanted
from the very beginning much against the
will of the higher ups who wanted other
actors to play those roles but
um I've known
Annette since we
did a screen test together for Milos
Foreman for a film he did of the L on
dangerus movie it was a different film
from that one but it was the same story
and I've always thought she is just
remarkable and I think that the work she
did in that film the relationship that
um we were able to
build um for me the saddest part of that
success was that she didn't win the
Oscar and I
felt she should have what what kind of
interesting direction did you get from
from Sam mendz in how you approach
playing Lester and the
different how to take on the different
scenes there's a lot of just brilliant
scenes in that movie well I I'll I'll
share with you a story that most people
don't know
um which
is our first two days of shooting were
in
Smiley the place where I get a job in a
fast food place yeah it's a burger joint
yeah yeah and um I guess it was like
maybe the third day or the fourth day of
shooting we' now done that and I said to
Sam so how how are the dailies you know
how how do they look he goes which ones
I said well the first Smiley he goes oh
um they're shit and I went yeah no how
were they he goes no they're shit I hate
them I hate everything about
them I hate the costumes I hate the
location I hate that you're inside I
hate the way you acted I Hate Everything
But the script so I've gone back to the
studio and asked them if we can reshoot
the first two
days and I was like Sam
this is your very first movie you you're
going back to Steph Spielberg and saying
I need to reshoot the the first two days
entirely and he went
yeah and that's exactly what we did a
couple of weeks later they decided that
it was now a drive-thru because Annette
and Peter Galler used to come into the
place and ordered from the counter now
Sam had decided it has to be a
drive-thru you have to be in the window
of the the drive-thru changed the
costumes and we reshot those first two
days and Sam
said it was actually a moment of
incredible confidence because he said
the worst thing that could possibly have
happened happened in my first two days
and after
that I was like I know what I'm doing
and I knew I had to reshoot it and it
was absolutely right and I guess that's
what a great director must do is have
the guts in that moment to re-shoot
everything I that's a pretty gutsy move
two other little things to share with
you about Sam but the way he
is you wouldn't know it but the original
script opened and closed with a
trial
Ricky was
accused of Lester's murder and the movie
was bookended by this trial it's a very
different movie which they shot the
entire trial for
weeks okay wow yeah and I used to fly in
my
dreams you know those opening shots over
the neighborhood I used to come into
those shots in my
bathrobe flying and then when I hit the
ground and the newspaper was thrown at
me by the newspaper guy and I caught it
the alarm would go off and I wake up in
bed I spent 5 days being hung by wires
and filming these sequences of flying
through my dreams and Sam said to
me yeah the flying sequences are all
gone and the trial is gone and I was
like
what what are you talking
about um and here's my other little
favorite um story about Sam and that
when we were shooting in the valley one
of those places I flew this was an
indoor
set um Sam said to me in the morning hey
at lunch I just want to record a guide
track of all the dialogue all of your
narration cuz they just needed an
editing as a guide and I said sure So I
remember we came outside of this in this
hallway where I had a dressing room in
this little Studio we were
in and Sam had like a cassette tape
recorder and like a little
microphone and we put it on the floor
and he pushed record and I
read the entire
narration and I never did it
again that's the narration in the
movie because Sam
said when he listened to
it I wasn't trying to do anything he
said you had no idea where these things
were going where they were going to be
placed what they were going to mean you
just read it so innocently so purely so
directly that I I knew if I brought you
into a studio and put headphones on you
and had you do it again it would
change the ease with which you'd done it
and so they just fixed all of the
problems that they had with this little
cassette and that is the way I did it
and the only time I did it was in this
little
hallway and once again a great
performance lies in being uh doing less
yeah yeah the innocence and the purity
of lust he knew I would have come into
the studio and fucked it
up
yeah what do you think about the notion
of beauty that permeates American Beauty
what do you think that theme is with the
roses with the rose
petals
the the characters that are living this
mundane existence slowly opening their
eyes up to uh what is beautiful in
life see it's funny I don't think of the
roses and I don't think of her body and
the poster and I don't think of those
things as the
beauty um I think of the
bag I think
that there are things we
miss that are right in front of
us that are truly
beautiful the little things the simple
things yeah and in fact I'll even tell
you something that I always thought was
so
incredible when we shot uh the scenes in
the office where Lester worked the job
he hated there was a bulletin board
behind me on a
wall and someone who was watching a cut
or early dailies who was in the
marketing
department saw that someone had cut out
a little piece of paper and stuck it
and it said look
closer and they presented that to Sam as
the idea of what that should that could
go on the poster the idea of looking
closer was such a brilliant idea but it
wasn't I mean it wasn't like wasn't in
the script it was just on a wall behind
me and someone happened to zoom in on it
and see it and thought that's what this
movie is about this movie is about
taking the time to look
closer and I think that in itself is
just
beautiful mortality also permeates the
film you know it starts with
acknowledging that death is on the way
that uh your your Lester's time is
finite you ever think about your own
death
yeah scared of
it um
when I was at my lowest point yes it
scared
me what what does that fear look like
what what's the nature of the fear what
are you afraid
of that there's no way
out that there's no
answer
um that nothing makes sense
see the interesting thing about
Lester is facing the same fear he seemed
to be somehow
liberated and accepted everything yeah
and then saw the beauty of it cuz he got
there he was given the
opportunity to to reinvent himself and
to and
to try things he'd never tried to ask
questions he'd never asked
to to trust his instincts and to become
the best version of himself he could
become and so Dick Van djk who is uh has
become an extraordinary friend of
mine dick is 98 years
old and he says you know if I known I
was going to live this long I would have
taken better care of myself
um when I spend time with him
him I'm just moved by every day you know
he gets up and he goes it's a good day I
woke up and I learn a lot
about I I have
a a different feeling about death now
than I did seven years ago
uh and I
on the path to being able to be in a
place
where I've resolved the things I needed
to resolve and won't won't probably get
to all of it in my lifetime but I
certainly would like to be at a place
where if I were if I were to Dro dead
tomorrow it would have been an amazing
life so Lester got there it sounds like
dig Fang Dy got there you're trying to
get there
sure you said you feared death at your
lowest
Point what was the lowest point it was
uh November 1st of 2017 and
then Thanksgiving Day of that same
year so let's talk about it let's talk
about this dark
time let's talk about the sexual
allegations against you that led to you
being cancelled by uh well the entire
world for the last seven years
I would like to personally understand
the sins the bad things you did and the
bad things you didn't
do so I also should say that the thing I
hope to do here is
to give respect to Due
Process innocent until proven guilty
that the mass hysterium machine of the
internet and clickbait journalism
doesn't do so here's what I understand
there were criminal and civil trials
brought against you including the one
that started it all when Anthony rap
sued you for $40
million in these trials you were
acquitted found not guilty and not
liable is that right yes I think that's
really important again in terms of due
process and I read a a lot and I watched
a lot in preparation for this on this on
this point Point um including of course
the recently uh detailed interviews you
did with Dan Wooten and then Allison
Pearson of the Telegraph and those are
all focused on this topic and they go in
detail where you respond in detail to
many of the allegations if people are
interested in the details they can
listen to those So based on that and
everything I looked at as I understand
you never prevented anyone from leaving
if they wanted to sort of in the sexual
context for example by blocking the door
is that right that's correct
yeah you always respected the explicit
know from people again the sexual
context is that right that is correct
you've never done anything sexual with
an underage person right never and also
as is sometimes done in Hollywood let me
ask this you've never explicitly offered
to exchange sexual favors for career
advancement correct correct in terms of
bad behavior what did you do what was
the the worst of it and how often did
you do it I have heard now quite often
that everybody has a Kevin Spacey story
um and what that tells me is that I hit
on a lot of
guys how often did you cross the line
and what does that mean to you I did a
lot of horsing around I did a lot of
things that at the time I thought were
sort of playful and fun and I have
learned since we're not and I have had
to recognize that
I I crossed some boundaries and I did
some things that were wrong and I made
some mistakes and that's in my past I
mean I've been working so hard over
these last seven years to have the
conversations I needed to have to listen
to people to understand things from a
different perspective than the one that
I had and to say I will never behave
that way again for the rest of my life
just to clarify I think your were often
too pushy with the
flirting and that manifested itself in
in multiple ways but just to make
clear you never prevented anyone from
leaving if they wanted
to you always took the explicit no from
people as an answer no stop you took
that for the
answer you've never done anything sexual
with an underage person and you've never
explic offered to exchange sexual favors
for career advancement these are some of
the sort of accusations that have been
made and in the court of law multiple
times have been shown not to be true but
I have had a sexual life and I've fallen
in love and I've been so admir admiring
of people that I that I I mean I'm I'm
so romantic I'm such a romantic person
that there's this whole side of me that
hasn't been talking about isn't being
discussed but that's that's who I know
that's the person I know it's been very
upsetting to hear that some people have
said I I mean I don't have a violent
bone in my body but to hear people
describe things as having been very
aggressive is incredibly um difficult
for me and I'm deeply sorry that I ever
offended anyone or hurt anyone in any
way it is it is crushing to me and I
have to work very hard to show and to
prove that I have learned um I've got
the memo and I will never ever ever
behave in those ways again from
everything I've seen in public
interactions with you people love you
colleagues love you co-workers love you
they there's a
flirtatiousness another word for that is
chemistry there's a Chemistry Between
the people you work with and by the way
not to take anything away from my
accountability for things I did where I
got it wrong I crossed the line I pushed
some boundaries I accept all of that but
I live in an industry in which
flirtation uh
attraction people meeting in the
workspace and ending
up marrying each other and having
children and so it is a it is a it is a
space and a place where these Notions of
family these Notions of attraction these
Notions
of It's Always complicated if you meet
someone in the workspace and find
yourselves attracted to each other you
have to be mindful of that and you have
to be very mindful that you don't ever
want anyone to feel that um their job is
in Jeopardy um or you would punish them
in some way if they no longer wanted to
be with you so those are important uh
things to just acknowledge another
complexity to this as as I've seen is
that there's just a huge number of
actors that look up to you a huge number
of people in the industry that look up
to you so just and love you I I've seen
just from this documentary just a lot of
people just love being around you uh
learning from you what it means to
create great Theater Great film great
stories and so that adds to the
complexity I wouldn't say it's a power
Dynamic like a boss employee
relationship it's a
admiration
Dynamic that is easy to miss and easy to
take advantage of is that something you
understand yes and I also understand
that there are people who met me and
spent a very brief period of time with
me but presumed I was now going to be
their
mentor and then behaved in a way that I
was unaware of that they were either
participating or flirting along uh or
encouraging
me uh without me having any idea that
that at the end of the day they were
expecting
something um
so these are about relationships that
these are about two people these are
about people making decisions people
making choices and I I accept my
accountability in that but there are a
number of things that I've been accused
of that just simply did not happen and
and I can't
say and I don't think it would be right
for me to say well I you know everything
that's ever been I've been accused of is
true because we've now proved that it
isn't and it wasn't um but I'm perfectly
willing to
accept that I had behaviors that were
wrong and that I shouldn't have
done and I am regretful for I think
that's also speaks to uh Dark Side of
Fame the sense I got is that there are
some people potentially a lot of people
trying to make friends with you in order
to get roles in order to advance their
career so not you using them but they
trying to use
you
uh what's that like how do you know if
somebody likes you for you for Kevin or
likes you
for uh like you you said you're romantic
you see a person and you're like I like
this
person and they seem to like you how do
you know if they like you for
you well to some degree I would say that
I have been able to trust my instincts
on that and that I've most of the time
been
right but obviously in the last number
of years not just with people who've
accused me but just also people in my
own industry you know to realize that oh
I thought we had a friendship but I
guess that was about an inch thick and
and and not what I thought it was um but
look the you know one shouldn't be
surprised by that I have to also say you
know you said a little while ago that
the world had canceled me and I have to
disagree with you I have to disagree
because for seven years
I've been stopped by
people sometimes every day sometimes
multiple multiple times a day and the
conversations that I have with people
the generosity that they share the
kindness that they
show and how much they want to know when
I'm getting back to
work tells me that while there may be a
very loud
minority there is a quieter majority in
the industry have you been betrayed
in life and how do you not let that make
you
cynical I think betrayal is a really
interesting
word but I think if you're going to be
betrayed it has to be by those who truly
know
you and I can tell you that I have not
been
betrayed that's a beautiful way to put
it for the times you cross the
line do you take responsibility for the
wrongs you've done yes are you sorry to
the people you may have hurt emotionally
yes and I have spoken to many of
them privately privately which is where
amend should be made were they able to
start finding forgiveness
absolutely some of the most moving
conversations that I have
had when I
was determined to take
accountability have been those people
have said thank you so much
and I think I can forgive you
now if you got a chance to talk to the
Kevin Spacey of 30 to 40 years
ago what would you uh tell him to change
about his
ways and how how would you do it what
what would be your approach would you be
nice about it would you smack them
around I think if I were to go back that
far I probably would have found a way
to um not have been as concerned about
my revealing my
sexuality and hiding that for as long as
I did I think that had a um a lot to do
with confusion and a lot to do with
mistrust um both my own and other
people's for for most of your life you
were not
open with the public about being
gay what was the hardest thing about
keeping who you love a
secret that I didn't find the right
moment of
Celebration to be able to share that
that must be a thing that weighs on you
to not be able to fully
yeah celebrate your love you
know Ian McKellen
said after 40 he was 49 when he came out
27 years he'd been a professional actor
being in the closet and he said he felt
it was like he
was living a part of his
life not being truthful and that he felt
that it affected his work when he did
come out because he no longer felt like
he had anything to hide and I absolutely
believe that that is what my experience
has been and will continue to be um I I
am sorry about the way I came
out
um but I had but Evan and I had already
had the conversation I was I had already
decided to come
out and so it wasn't like oh I I was
forced to come out but it was something
I decided to do and by the way much
against evans's advice I I I came out in
that statement and he wishes that I I
had not done so yeah you made a
statement uh when um the initial
accusation happened there could be up
there's one of the worst social media
posts of all
time
into it's like two for one don't hold
back now come on really tell me how you
feel the first part you kind of
implicitly admitted to doing something
bad which was later shown and proved
completely to never have happened it was
a a lie no I I I basically said that I
didn't remember what this person was the
Anthony rap was claiming from 31 years
before uh I had no memory of it but if
it had happened if this embarrassing
moment had happened then I would owe him
an apology that was what I said and then
I said and while I'm at it I think I'll
come out and you know it was definitely
not the greatest coming out party ever I
I I will admit that but from the public
perception the first part of that so
first of all the second part is a is a
horrible way to come out yes we all
agree and then the first part from the
public
Viewpoint they see Guilt in that which
also is tragic because at least that
particular accusation and is a very
dramatic one it's a $40 million lawsuit
it's a big deal and an underage person
was shown to be false well but you're
you're melding two things together the
lawsuit didn't happen until 2020 and
then it didn't get to court until 2022
we're back in 2017 when it was just an
accusation he made in BuzzFeed magazine
um look I I was backed into a corner
when someone says you were so drunk you
won't remember this thing
happened what's your first instinct is
your first instinct to say this person's
a liar or is your first instinct to go
what I was what 31 years at a party I
don't even remember throwing obviously a
lot of Investigation happened after that
in which we were then able to prove in
that in that court case that it had
never occurred but at the
moment I was sort of being told I
couldn't push back I you have to be kind
you can't I think you know even to me
now none of it sounds right but I don't
know that I could have said anything
that would have
been satisfactory to anybody okay
there's a almost convincing explanation
for the worst social media post of all
time I almost accept it I'm really
surprised you you I guess you haven't
read a lot of media posts cuz I can't
believe that's the actual worst one it's
it's beautifully bad that's how bad that
social media post is as you mentioned uh
Liam niss and Sharon Stone came out and
suppor of you recently uh speaking to
your
character a lot of people who know you
and some of whom I know uh who have
worked with you privately show support
for you but are afraid to speak up
publicly what do you make of that I mean
to me personally this just makes me sad
because perhaps that's the nature of the
industry
that it's difficult to do that but I
just wish there would be a little bit
more courage in the world I I don't
think it's about the industry I think
it's about our time
I think it's the time that we're in and
people are very afraid just afraid just
a general General no they're literally
afraid that um they're going to get
cancelled if they stand up for someone
who has
been um and I think it's I mean you know
we've seen this many times in history
this is not the first time it's
happened so as you said your darkest
moment in
17 when all of this went down uh one of
the things that happened is you were no
longer on the hos of cards for the last
season uh let's go to the beginning of
that show okay one of the greatest TV
series of all time a dark fascinating
character in Frank Underwood a ruthless
cunning borderline evil
politician uh what are some interesting
aspects uh to the process you went
through for becoming Frank Underwood
maybe Richard III there's a lot of
elements there in your performance that
maybe uh inspired that character well is
that fair or no I'll give you uh I'll
give you one very
interesting um
specific
education that I got in doing Richard
III and closing that
show at Dam in March of 2012 and two
months later started shooting House of
Cards there is something called direct
address um in
Shakespeare um you have Hamlet talks to
the
world but when Shakespeare wrote Richard
III it was the first time he created
something called direct
address which is the character looks
directly
at each person close by it is a
different kind of uh sharing than when a
character is doing a monologue a opening
of Henry
um and while there are some people who
believe that director dress was invented
in Ferris buer it wasn't it was
Shakespeare who invented
it so I had just had this
experience every night in theaters all
over the
world seeing how people
reacted to becoming a
co-conspirator because that's what it's
about and what I tried to do and what uh
finer really helped me with in those
beginning days
um was how to look in that
camera and imagine I was talking to my
best friend
because you're sharing the secret of the
darkness of how this game is played with
that best friend yeah and there were
many times when um I I I suppose the
writers thought I was crazy where I
would see a script and I would see like
this moment where this direct address
would happen i''d say all this stuff and
I'd go and we do a read through of the
script I go I don't think I need to say
any of that and they were like what do
you mean I said well the audience knows
all of that all I have to do is look
they know exactly what's going on I
don't need to say a thing so I was often
cutting dialogue um because it just
wasn't needed because that relationship
between that I'd learned that I'd
experienced doing Richard
III was so extraordinary where I
literally watched people they were like
oh I'm in on the thing and this is so
awesome and then suddenly wait he killed
the kids he killed those kids in the
tower oh maybe it's not so and you
literally would watch them start to re
reverse their having had such a great
time with Richard III and the first you
know three
acts I thought this is going to happen
in this show if this um
intimacy can actually land
um and I think just think there was some
brilliant writing and we always
attempted to do it in one take no matter
how long something was we would try to
do it in one take the direct
addresses so there was never a cut when
we went on a locations we started to
then find ways to cut it and make it
slightly broader but that's interesting
cuz you're you're doing a bunch of with
both Richard third and Frank Underwood a
bunch
of dark borderline evil things and then
I guess the idea is you're going to be
losing the audience and then you win
them back over with the addresses that's
the remarkable thing is
against their
instincts and their better sense of what
they should and should not do they still
rallied around Frank
Underwood and I saw even with the
documentary The glimmers of that with
Richard
III I mean you were seducing the
audience
like there was such a chemistry between
you and the audience on stage yeah yeah
well he in that production that's
absolutely true um also Richard is one
of the weirder uh weird I mean by
weird was an early play of
Shakespeare's and he's basically never
off stage I mean I remember when we did
the first run through I had no idea what
the next scene was every time I came off
stage I had no idea what was next they
literally had to drag me from one place
to another say now it's the scene with
hting now it's
the but I now understand these wonderful
stories that you can read in in old
books about Shakespeare's time that
actors grabbed Shakespeare around the
cuff and punched him and threw him up
against wall and said you ever write a
part like this again I'm going to kill
you and that's why in later plays he
started to have pageant happened and
then a wedding happened and the main
character was offstage resting because
the actor had said you can't do this to
us there's no breaks and it's true
there's very few breaks in Richard II
you're on stage most of the time the
comedic aspect of Richard III and Frank
Underwood is is that a component that
helps bring out the full complexity of
the the darkness that is Frank Underwood
I I certainly can't uh take credit
for Shakespeare having written something
that is funny or B willan and his team
to have written something that is funny
is fundamentally
funny it just depends on how on how I
interpret it on on uh you know there are
you know that's one of the great things
why we
love you know in a years's time we can
see five different hamlets we can see
four Richard III's we can see to Richard
II's that's part of the thrill that we
don't own these parts we borrow them and
we interpret them and what Ian McKellen
might do with a role could be completely
different from what I might do because
of the way we perceive it and also very
often in terms of going for humor it's
very often a director will say why don't
you say that with a bit of irony why
don't you try that with a bit of B yeah
there's often that that like a a Ry
smile the line that jumps to me when
you're talking about
Claire um in the early maybe first
episode even I love that woman more
than sharks love
blood I just there and I mean I guess
there's a lot of ways to read that line
but the way you read it had both humor
had legitimate affection had all the
ambition and narcissism all of that
mixed up together I also think that one
should just acknowledge that where he
was
from there is something that happens
when you do an
accent and in fact sometimes the when I
would say to Bo or or one of the other
writers this is really good and I love
the idea but it rhythmically doesn't
help I I I need I need at least two more
words to rhythmically make this work
in his
accent because it just doesn't scan uh
and that's not I Amic pentameter I'm not
talking about that there is that as well
in Shakespeare but there was sometimes
when it's too many lines it's not enough
lines in order for me to make this work
uh for the way he speaks the way he
sounds and what that accent does to
emphasis how much of that character in
terms of the musicality
of the way he speaks is Bill
Clinton uh not really at all I mean
Clinton you know look Bill
Clinton he had a way of
talking you know that he was very slow
and he felt your pain you know but Frank
Underwood was a a
deeper um more
direct um and less
poetic uh in the way that that uh
Clinton would talk I'll tell you this
Clinton story that you'll
like so we decided to do a performance
of The Iceman Cometh for the Democratic
party on Broadway and the president is
going to come he's going to see this 4
and a half hour play and then we're
going to do this event afterward and I
know a couple weeks before we're going
to do this event someone at the White
House calls and says um listen it's very
unusual to get the president for like 6
and 1 half hours so we're suggesting
that the president come and see the
First Act and then he
goes and I knew what was happening now
first of all Clinton knows this play he
knows what this play is
about and I you know as gently as I
could said well if the president is
thinking of leaving at intermission then
I'm afraid we're going to have to cancel
the event there's just no way that so
anyway then oh no it's fine it's fine
now I know what was happening what was
happening was that someone had read the
play
and they were quite concerned and I'll
tell you why because the play is about
this character that I uh portrayed named
hickey and in the course of the play as
things get more and more revealed you
realize that this man that I'm playing
has been a philanderer and he's cheated
on his wife quite a lot and by the end
of the play he is arrested and taken off
because he ended up ending his wife's
life because she she forgave him too
much and he couldn't live with it
mhm so now imagine this there's 2,000
people at the brookson theater watching
President Clinton watching this
play and at the end of the night we take
our Curtain Call they bring out the
presidential Podium Bill Clinton stands
up there and he
says
well I suppose we should all thank Kevin
and this extraordinary company of
actors for giving us
all way too much to think
[Laughter]
about and the audience fell over in
laughter and then he gave a great speech
and I thought that was a pretty good way
to handle that well in that way him and
Frank Underwood share like a Charisma
there's certain presidents that just
have politicians that just have this
Charisma you can't stop listening to
them some of it is the accent but some
of it is some other magical thing when I
uh was starting to do research um I
wanted to meet with the whip Kevin
McCarthy and uh he wouldn't meet with me
till I called his office back and said
tell him I'm playing a Democrat not a
Republican and then he met with
me nice and he was helpful he he took me
to whip
meetings
politicians uh so you worked with David
Fincher there he uh he was the executive
producer but he also directed The the
first two episodes yeah high level what
was it like working with him again uh in
which ways do you think he helped guide
you in the show to become the great show
that it was
I I give him uh
a huge amount of um the
credit and not just for what he
established but the fact that every
director
after stayed within that world I think
that's why the series had a very
consistent feeling to it it was like
watching a very long
movie the style where the camera went
what it did what it didn't do how we
used this how we used that how we didn't
do this there were there were things
that he laid the foundation for
that we managed to
maintain pretty much
until uh bo Willman left the show they
got rid of
Fincher and I was sort of the last man
standing in terms of fighting again
Netflix had never had any creative
control at all we had complete creative
control but over time they started to
get themselves involved because look
this is what happens to networks you
know they never made a television show
before ever and then four years later
they they were the
best and so you know then you're going
to get suggestions about casting and
about writing and about who music and
scenes and so there was there was a a
considerable amount of a push back that
I had to do when they started to get
involved in ways that I thought was
affecting the quality of the show what
are those battles like like I heard that
there was
a battle of the exacts like you
mentioned early on about your name not
being on the billing for seven I heard
that there's battles about the ending of
seven which was really
um well it's it's was pretty dark so
what's that battle like how often does
that happen and how do you win that
battle like cuz it feels like there's
line where the networks or the the execs
are really afraid of Crossing that line
into this strange uncomfortable place
and then the the director great
directors and great actors kind of flirt
with that
line it can happen in different ways I
mean I remember one uh uh argument we
had was we had specifically shot a
scene so that there would be no score in
that scene so that there was no music it
was just two people
talking and then we end up seeing a cut
where they've decided to put music in
and it is against everything that
scene's supposed to be about and you
have to go and say guys this was
intentional we did not want score and
now you've added score because what you
think it's too quiet you think an our
audience can't listen to two people talk
for two and a half minutes with this
show has proved anything it's proved
that people have patience and their
willing to watch an entire season over a
weekend um so there are those kind of uh
arguments that can happen
um you know there's there's the the
different different arguments on
different levels and and they sometimes
have to do with I mean look go back to
the Godfather they wanted to fire Pacino
because they didn't see anything
happening they saw nothing happening so
they wanted to fire Pacino and then
finally Copa thought I'll shoot the
scene where he kills the police Poli
commissioner and and they'll do that
scene now and that was the first scene
where they went yeah actually there's
something going on there so Pacino kept
the
role you think that Godfathers when
Pacino was like the Pacino we know was
born or is that more like there's the
character the Really Over the Top incen
a woman there's like stages I suppose
yeah of course look I think that we we
can't forget that Pacino is also an
animal of the theater
you know he does a lot of plays and he
started off doing plays and you know
movies were you know panic and needle
Park was his
first um and yeah I think there's that
period of time when he was doing some
incredible Parts Incredible
movies when I did a series called wise
guy I got cast on a Thursday and I flew
up to Vancouver on a Saturday I started
shooting on Monday and all I had time to
do was watch The Godfather and Serpico
and then I went to work
[Laughter]
would you say ridiculous question
Godfather greatest film of all
time well certainly certainly yes yes um
but I also look I I'm I'm allowed to
change my opinion I can next week say
it's Lawrence of Arabia or a week after
that I can say um Sullivan travels I
mean that's the wonderful thing about
movies and particularly great movies is
when you see them
again it's like seeing them for the
first time and you pick up things that
you didn't see the last time and and for
that day you fall in love with that
movie you might even
say uh to a friend that that is the
greatest movie of all time and also I
think it's the it's it's it's it's the
degree with which directors are
daring I mean kubric
decided to cast one actor to play three
major roles in Doctor Strange Love I
mean who who has the balls to do that
today I was going to mention when we're
talking about seven that just if if
you're if you're looking at the greatest
performances portrayals of murderers so
obviously like I mentioned Han elector
and Silence of the Lambs that's up there
seven to me is like competing for first
place with Silence of the Lambs but then
there's a different one uh with kubri
and Jack Nicholson right with Shin with
The Shining and there's um as opposed to
a murderer who's always been a murderer
here's a person like in American Beauty
who becomes that who descends into
madness yeah I I read also that Jack
dingon improvised here's Johnny in that
scene I believe that that's a very
different performance than yours in
seven what uh what do you make of that
performance Nicholson's always been such
an incredible actor because
he has absolutely no shame about being
demonstrative and over the-top and he
also has no problem charact playing
characters who are deeply flawed and
he's interested in that I have a pretty
good Nicholson story though nobody
nobody knows you also have a pretty good
uh Nicholson impression but what's the
story story is
um story was told to me by a sound
man Dennis maitlin who's a great great
great guy he said he uh he was very
excited because he he got on PR's honor
which was Jack Nicholson Angelic Houston
directed by John
Houston and he said I was so excited
it's my first day on the movie and I get
told to go into Mr Nicholson's trailer
and mic him up for the first scene so I
knock on the trailer door and I hear
yes and uh come on in and I come inside
Mr Nicholson is changing out of his
regular clothes and he's putting on he's
going to put on his costume and so I'm
setting up the mic and I'm getting ready
and I said Mr Nicholson I I just wanted
to tell you I'm I'm extremely excited to
be working with you again it's it's it's
a great pleasure and Jack goes did we
work together before and he says yes yes
we uh we did he what what film did we do
together he says uh well we did U
Missouri breaks Nicholson goes oh my God
Missouri breaks Jesus Christ we were out
of our minds on that film holy shit
Jesus Christ it's wonder I'm alive my
god there was so much drugs going on and
we were stoned out of our minds holy
shit just then he folds the pants that
he's just taken off over his arm and an
eighth of coke drops out on the
floor Dennis looks at
it Nicholson looks at
it Jack
goes haven't worn these pants since
Missouri braks
man I love that guy unapologetically
himself oh yeah your impression of him
like at the AFI was just it just great
well that was for that was for Mike
Nichols oh yeah he had a big impact in
your career
huge can you talk about him like what
what role did he play in your life I
think it was
uh yeah it was 1984 I went into audition
for the national tour of a play called
the real thing
which Jeremy Irons and Glen Close were
doing on Broadway that Mr Nichols had
directed so I went in to read for this
character bro who is a Scottish
character and I did the audition and uh
Mike Nichols comes down the aisle of the
theater and he's asking me questions
about where did you go to school and
what have you been doing and I just come
back from doing a bunch of years of
regional theater and different theaters
so I was in New York and meeting Mike
Nicholls was just incredible so Mr
Nichols went um have you um have you
seen the other play that I directed up
the block called Hurley Burley and I
said no I haven't he says why not I said
I can't afford a Broadway ticket he said
we can arrange that I'd like you to go
see that play and then I'd like you to
come in next week and audition for that
and I was like okay so I went to see
hurle Burley William Hurt Harvick
Kel Chris walin Candace Bergen Cynthia
Nixon
Jerry
Stiller and I watched this play it's
play David Ray play about Hollywood this
is crazy I mean Bill hurt was like
unbelievable and it was Extraordinary
Chris wer so this's this harvi Kel won
came in later harv Kel's playing this
part and uh I come in on I audition for
it and Nicholls says I want you to uh
understudy Harvey kitel I want you to
understudy
Phil and I'm like
Phil I mean Harvey Cel is like in his
40s he looks like he can beat the shit
out everybody on stage I'm this like 20
foury
old and Nicholls said it's just all
about attitude if you believe you can
beat the shit on everybody on stage the
audience will
too okay so I then started to learn
Phil and the way it works when you're in
understudy unless you're a name they
don't let you rehearse on the stage you
just in a rehearsal room but I used to
sneak onto the stage and rehearse and
try to figure out where the props were
and yada y anyway one day I get a call
you're going on today it's
Phil so I went
on Nicholls is told by Peter Lawrence
who's the stage manager Spacey's going
on as Phil so Nicholls comes down and
watches the second act comes backstage
he says that was really good how soon
could you learn
Mickey Mickey was the role that Ron
Silver was playing that uh Chris Walkin
also
played I said I I don't I don't know I
maybe a couple weeks he goes learn
Mickey
too so I I learned
Mickey and then one day I'm told you're
going on tomorrow night is
Mickey Nicholls comes sees the second
act comes backstage says
that was really good I mean that was
really funny how soon could you learn
Eddie and so I became like the pinch
hitter on Hurley Burley I learned all
the male parts including Jerry Stillers
although I never went on is Jerry
Stillers
part and then I left the
play and I guess about two months later
I get this phone call from Mike Nichols
he's like Kevin how are you and I'm like
I'm fine what what can I do for you he
says well I'm going to make a film this
summer with Mandy and Merill and there's
a role I'd like you to come in and and
uh an audition for so I I went in
auditioned cast me as this Mugger on a
subway then there's this whole upheaval
that happens because he then doesn't
continue with Mandy
pkin Mandy leaves the movie and he asks
Jack Nicholson to come in and replace
Mandy pimkin so now
I had no scenes with him but I'm in a
movie with Jack Nicholson and Merl
Streep and my first scene in this movie
which I shot on my birthday July 26th of
85 um I got to wink at Merill Street uh
in this scene and I I was so nervous I I
literally couldn't wink Nicholls had to
like calm me down and help me wink um
but that became my first my very first
film um and he was incredible and he let
me come and watch when they were
shooting scenes I wasn't in um and I
remember ending up one day in the makeup
trailer on the same day we were working
Jack and me we had no scene together but
I remember him coming in and they put
him down in the chair and they put
cucumbers frozen cucumbers on his eyes
and did his
neck and then they raised him up and did
his face and then I remember Nicholson
went like this looked in the mirror and
he went
[Applause]
another day another
$50,000 and walked out of the
trailer well what was Christopher Walkin
like a so he's a he's a theater guy too
oh yeah he started out as a chorus boy
dancer well I can see that yeah the guy
I've known walking a long time and I did
a center at live where I did um we did
these Star Wars auditions
so I did Chris Walkin as as Hans so so
good and
uh I'll never forget this I was in Los
Angeles about two weeks after and I was
at chatow maral there's some party
happening at chatow maral and I saw
Chris walan come out of onto the balcony
and I was like oh shit it's Chris Walkin
and he walked up to and he went
gevin I saw you little sketch it was
funny haha
oh man it was a really good sketch and
that
guy there's certain people that are
truly
unique and
Unapologetic continue being that
throughout their whole career the way
they talk the musicality of how they
talk how they are their way of being
he's that yeah and and it somehow Works
watch yeah and I mean he works in so
many different cont
his he plays like a mobster in True
Romance mhm and it's like genius that's
genius but he could he could be anything
he could be soft he could be a badass
all of it and he's so Christopher
walking but somehow works for all these
different
characters so I guess we were talking
about House of Cards like two hours ago
before we uh took a tangent upon a
tangent but there's a moment in episode
one where president Walker broke his
promise to Frank Underwood that he would
make him a secretary of
state was this when the monster in Frank
was born or was the monster was there
the sort of for you looking at that
character was there an idealistic notion
to him that there's loyalty and that
broke him or did he always know that
there is this this whole world is about
manipulation and do anything to get
power well I mean it might have been the
first moment an audience saw him be
betrayed but it certainly was not the
first betrayal he' experienced and once
you start to get to know him and learn
about his life and learn about his
father and learn about his you know
friends and learn about their
relationship and learn what he was like
even as a Cadet I think you start to
realize that this is a man who has
um very strong beliefs about
loyalty and so wasn't the first it was
just the first moment
that in terms of the storyline that's
being
built night takes King was the name of
our production company yeah uh what do
you think motivated
him at that moment and throughout the
show was it all about power and also
Legacy or was there some small part
underneath at all where he wanted to
actually do
good in the world no I I think power is
a is a
afterthought what he loved more than
anything was being able to predict how
human beings would
react he was a behavioral
psychologist and he could know like he
was 17 moves ahead in a chess game he
could know if he did this at this moment
that eventually this would happen
he was able to be
predictive
and was usually right he knew just how
far he needed to push someone to get
them to do what he needed them to do in
order to make make the next step
work you've played a bunch of evil
characters well you call them
evil but you don't but but my the reason
I say that I don't mean to be snarky
about it but the reason I say it that
way is because
I never judge the people I
play and the people that I have played
or that any actor has played don't
necessarily view themselves as this
label it's easy to
say but that's not the way I can think I
cannot judge a character I play and then
play them
well I have to be free of judgment I
have to just play them and let the cards
drop where they where they may and let
an audience judge I mean the fact that
you use that word perfectly fine that's
your you know but it's like people
asking me you know was I really from
kpack or not you know it's just entirely
depends on your
perspective do
roles like that like seven like Frank
Underwood like
uh lesser from American Beauty they
change you psychologically as a person
so walking around in the skin of
these
characters
these complex characters with a ve very
different moral
systems
um I absolutely believe
that wandering around in someone else's
ideas in someone else's clothes
in someone else's
shoes teaches you enormous
empathy and and that goes to the heart
of not
judging and I have found that I have
been so moved by I mean look let's yes
you you've identified the darker
characters but I put Clarence Darrow
three
times I've played a play called national
anthems I've done movies like recount
I've done films like the ref I've done
films that in which there are that isn't
that doesn't exist in any of those
characters that those qualities paid
forward um and so it is
um incredible to be able to
embrace those things that I admire and
that are are like me and those things
that I don't admire and aren't like me
but
I have to put them on an equal footing
and say I have to just play them as best
I can and not um decide to wield
judgment over them without judgment
without judgment in Gulag
archipelago Alexander soier niten
famously writes about the line between
good and evil and that it runs to the
heart of every man so the the full
paragraph there when he talks about the
line during the life of any heart this
line keeps changing Place sometimes it
is squeezed One Way by exuberant evil
and sometimes it shifts to allow enough
space for good to flourish one and the
same human being is at various ages
under various circumstances a totally
different human being at times he is
close to being a devil at times to
sainthood but his name doesn't change
and to that name we ascribe the whole
lot good and evil uh what do you think
about this
note uh that we're all capable of Good
and Evil and throughout life that line
moves and shifts throughout the day
throughout every hour
M yeah I mean um one of the things that
I've been focused
on um very succinctly is the idea that
every day is an
opportunity it's an
opportunity
to make better decisions to learn and to
grow um and I also think
that look
I I grew up not knowing if my parents
loved
me particularly my father
I I never had a sense
that I was
loved and that stayed with me my whole
life and when
I think back at who my father
was and more succinctly who he
became it was a gr gradual and slow and
sad
development when I've gone back and now
I've looked at um Diaries my father kept
and albums he kept
particularly when he was a medic in the
US
Army served our country with
distinction when the war was over and
they went to Germany the things my
father said the things that he wrote the
things that he believed were as
patriotic as any American soldier who
had ever
served but then when he came back to
America and he had a dream of being a
journalist or his big Hope was that he
was going to be the Great American
novelist he wanted to be a creative
novelist and so he sat in his office and
he
wrote for 45 years
and never published
anything and somewhere along the way in
order to make money
he became what they call a technical
procedure writer which which the best
way to describe that is that if you
built the F-16 aircraft my father would
have written a manual to tell you how to
do it I mean as boring as technical as
tedious as you can imagine
and so somewhere in the
60s and into the
70s my father fell in with groups of
people and individuals pretend
intellectuals who started to give him
reasons why he was not successful as a
white Aryan man in the United
States and over
time my father became a white
supremacist
and I cannot tell you the amount of
times as a young
boy that my father would sit me down and
lecture
me for hours and hours and hours about
his fucked up ideas of America of
prejudice of white supremacy
and thank God for my sister who said
Don't listen to a thing he says he's out
of his
mind and even though I was young I
knew everything he was saying was
against people and I I loved
people I had so many wonderful
friends my best friend
Mike who's still my close friend to this
day I was afraid to bring him to my
house because I was afraid that my
father would find out he was
Jewish or that my father would leave his
office door open and some of them would
see his Nazi flag or his pictures of
Hitler or Nazi books or what he might
say
so when I found
theater in the e8th
grade and
Debate Club and choir and festivals and
plays and everything I could do to
participate in that wouldn't make me
have to come back
home I
did
and I've had to
reconcile who he
became because the between that man who
was in the US Army as a medic and the
man he
became I could never fill that
Gap
but I forgiven
him but then at the same time I've had
to look at my mother and
say she made excuses for
him oh he just needs to get it off his
chest oh it doesn't matter just let him
say so while on the outside I would say
oh yeah my mother loved
me but she didn't protect
me so was
the was all the stuff that she expressed
and and all of the attention and all the
the the love that I felt was that
because I became successful and I was
able to fulfill an emptiness that she'd
lived with her whole life with
him I don't know but I I've had to ask
myself those questions over these last
years um to try to reconcile that for
myself and the thing you wanted from
them and for them is less hate and more
love did your dad said he he loves you I
I don't have any memory of that I was in
a program and I they were showing us
um an experiment that they done with
psychologists and mothers and fathers
and their children and the children were
anywhere between 6 months and a year
sitting in a little
crib and the exercise was this parents
are playing with the baby right there
Toys yada y baby's laughing at and then
the psychologist would say stop and the
parent would go like this
and you would then watch for the next
two and a half three minutes this child
trying to get their parents'
attention in any possible way and I
remember when I was sitting in this
theater watching
this I saw
myself that was
me screaming and reaching out and trying
to get my parents' attention that was me
and that was
uh not something I I'd ever remembered
before but I I knew that what that baby
was going
through is there some elements of uh
politics and maybe the private
sector that
uh are captured by the by a house of
cards like how how true to life do you
think that is from everything you've
seen about politics from everything You'
seen about
uh the politicians of this particular
elections I
heard so many different reactions from
politicians about House of Cards some
would say oh it's not like that at all
and then others would say it's closer to
the truth than anyone wants to admit and
I think I fall down in the side of that
idea I have
to
interview some more world leaders
some big
politicians in your understanding of
trying to become Frank hwood what advice
would you give in interviewing Frank
hwood how do how do get him to say
anything that's at all
honest well in Frank's case all you have
to do is tell him to look into the
camera and he'll tell you he'll tell you
what you want to hear secret
unfortunately we don't get that look
into the the mind of a person the way we
do with Frank Underwood in real life
sadly well but you could say to somebody
you like the series House of Cards you
know I'd love for you to just look into
the camera and tell us what's really
going on what you really feel about blah
blah blah that's a good technique I'll
I'll try that with zalinski and with
Putin um what do you hope your legacy as
an actor is and and as a human being
people ask me
now what's your favorite performance
you've ever
given and my answer is I haven't given
it
yet
so um there's a lot more that I want to
be challenged by be inspired
by
um there's a lot that I don't know
there's a lot I have to
learn
um and that is very exciting place to
feel that I'm
in I you know it's been interesting
because you know we're we're going back
we're
talking and you know it's it's nice to
go back every now and
then but I'm focused on on what's
next do you hope the world World
forgives
you people go to church every week to be
forgiven and I believe that forgiveness
and I believe that Redemption are
beautiful things I mean look don't
forget I I live in an
industry in which there is a tremendous
amount of conversation about Redemption
from a lot of people who are very
serious people in very serious
positions who who believe in it I mean
that guy finally got out of prison he
was wrongly accused that guy who served
his time and got out of
prison we see so many people saying
let's find a path for that person Let's
help that person rejoin
Society but there is an odd situation if
you're in the entertainment industry
you're not offered that kind of a
path and I hope
that the fear that people are
experiencing will eventually subside and
Common Sense will get back to the
table if it does do you think you have
another Oscar worthy performance in
you listen if it would piss off Jack
Lemon again for me to win a third time I
absolutely think so yeah well you have
to mention him again you know Ernest way
once said that the world is a fine place
and worth fighting for and uh I agree
with him on both
counts Kevin thank you so much for
talking today thank
you thanks for listening to this
conversation with Kevin spacy to support
this podcast please check out our
sponsors in the description and now let
me leave you with some words from Merill
stre acting is not about being someone
different it's finding the similarity in
what is apparently different
and then finding myself in
there thank you for listening and hope
to see you next time