Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Kevin spacy a two-time Oscar winning
actor who has starred in seven The Usual
Suspects American Beauty and House of
Cards he is one of the greatest actors
ever creating haunting performances of
characters who often embody the Dark
Side of human nature 7 years ago he was
cut from House of Cards and cancelled by
Hollywood in the world when Anthony rap
made an allegation that Kevin spacy
sexually abused in
1986 Anthony rap then filed a civil
lawsuit seeking $40
million in this trial and all civil and
criminal trials that followed Kevin was
acquitted he has never been found guilty
nor liable in the court of
law in this conversation Kevin makes
clear what he did and what he didn't do
I also encourage you to listen to
Kevin's Dan Wooten and Allison Pearson
interviews for additional details and
responses to the
allegations as an aside let me say that
one of the principles I operate under
for this podcast and in life is that I
will talk with everyone with empathy and
with
backbone for each guest I hope to
explore their life's work life's story
and what and how they think and do so on
honestly and fully The Good the Bad and
the Ugly the Brilliance and the
flaws I won't whitewash their sins but I
won't reduce them to a worst possible
caricature of their sins either the
latter is what the mass hysteria of
Internet mobs too often does often
rushing to a final judgment before the
facts are in I will try to do better
than that to respect due process in
service of the truth
and I hope to have the courage to always
think independently and to speak
honestly from the heart even when the
eyes of the outrage mob are on
me again my goal is to understand human
beings at their best and at their worst
and hope is such understanding leads to
more compassion and wisdom in the
world I will make mistakes and when I do
I will work hard to improve
I love you
all this is the Lex Freedman podcast to
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in the description and now dear friends
here's Kevin
spacy you played a serial killer in the
movie 7 your performance was one of if
not the greatest portrayal of a murderer
on screen ever what was your process of
becoming him John Doe the serial killer
the truth is I didn't get the
part um I had been in Los Angeles making
a couple of films swimming of sharks and
Usual Suspects and then I did a film
called
outbreak that Morgan Freeman was
in and I went into audition for David
Fincher in probably late November of
94 and I audition for this part and
didn't get it and I went back to New
York and I think they started shooting
like December
12th and I'm in New York I'm back in my
I have a wonderful apartment on West
12th Street and my mom has come to visit
for Christmas and it's December
23rd and it's like 7:00 at night and my
phone rings and it's Arnold son who's
the producer of
seven and he's very jovial and he's very
friendly and he says how you doing and I
said fine and he said listen do you
remember that film you came in 47 I said
yeah yeah absolutely he goes Well turns
out that uh we hired an actor and we
started shooting and then yesterday
David fired
him and David would like you to get on a
plane on Sunday and come to Los Angeles
and start shooting on
Tuesday and I was
like
okay would it be imposing to say Can can
I read it again because it's it's been a
while now and I'd like to so they send a
script
over I read the script that
night I thought about
it
um and I I had this feeling I I I I I
can't even quite describe it but I had
this feeling
that it would be really good if I didn't
take billing in the film and the reason
I felt that was because I knew that by
the time this film would come out it
would be the last one of the three
movies that I just shot the fourth one
and if any of those Films Broke through
or did well if it was going to be Brad
pit Morgan Freeman gwenth palro and
Kevin spy and you don't show up for the
first 25 30 40 minutes people going to
figure out who you're playing so people
should know that you are the serial you
play the serial killer in the movie and
serial killer shows up like more than
halfway through the mie very late and
when you say billing is like the posters
the VHS cover everything you're gone
you're not there not there and so new
line Cinema uh told me to go fuck myself
um that they absolutely could use my
picture and my
image and this became a little bit of a
I'd say
24hour
conversation and it was Fincher who said
I actually think this is a really cool
idea so the compromise was I'm the first
credit at the end of the
movie when the credits start so I got on
a plane on that Sunday and I flew to Los
Angeles and I went into where they were
shooting and I went into the makeup room
and David Fincher was there and we were
talking about what should I do how
should I how should I look and I just
had my hair short for outbreak cuz I was
playing a
military uh character and I just looked
at
the hairdresser and I said do you have a
razor and finer went are you kidding I
said no he goes if you shave your head
I'll shave
mine so we both shaved our
heads and then I started shooting the
next day
so my long-winded answer to your
question is that I didn't have that much
time to think about how to build that
character what I think in the end
Fincher was able to do so
brilliantly with such
Terror was to set the audience
up to meet this character I think the
the last scene the ending scene and the
car ride leading up to it where it's
mostly on
you in conversation with Morgan Freeman
and Brad Pit it's one of the greatest
scenes in film history so people somehow
didn't see the movie there's these five
murders that happen that are inspired by
five of the seven deadly sins and the
the ending scene is inspired represents
the last two deadly
sins and there's
this calm
subtlety uh about you in your
performance it's just terrifying maybe
in contrast with Brad Pit performance
that's also really strong but that the
contrast in the contrast is the
terrifying uh sense that you get in the
audience that builds up to The Twist at
the end or the surprise at the end with
the famous what's in the box from Brad
Pit right that is Brad Pitt's
character's wife her head yeah I I I can
really only tell you that while we were
shooting that scene in the car while we
were out in
the in the desert in that place where
all those electrical wires were David
just kept saying
less do less
um and I just tried to I mean he I
remember he kept saying to me
remember you're in
control like you're going to
win and knowing that should allow you to
have tremendous
confidence and I just followed that lead
and I I just think it's the kind of film
that
so many of the
elements that had been at work from the
beginning of the movie in terms of its
style in terms of how he built this
Terror in terms of how he built for the
audience a sense of this person being
one of the scariest people they might
ever
encounter um is it really allowed me to
be able to not have to do that much just
say the words and mean
them and I think it also
is it's an example of
what makes tragedy
so
um
difficult I mean you know very often
tragedy is people operating without
enough information they don't have all
the facts Romy and Juliet they don't
have all the facts they don't know what
we know as an
audience and so in the the
end
whether Brad Pitt's
character ends
up shooting John Doe or turning the gun
on himself which was a discussion I mean
there were there were a number of
alternative endings that were discussed
um nothing ends up being tied up in a
nice little bow it is complicated and
shows how nobody wins in the
end when you're not operating with all
the
information when you say say the words
and mean them what does mean
them
mean I've uh I've been very fortunate to
be directed by Fincher a couple of
times and
um he would say to me
sometimes I don't believe a thing that
is coming out of your mouth shall we try
it
again and you
go okay yeah we can try it again and
sometimes he'll do
take and then you'll look to see if he
has any added um genius to to to hand
you and he just goes let's do it again
and then let's do it again and some
sometimes I I I say this in all humility
he's literally trying to beat the acting
out of
you and and and by continually saying do
it again do it again do it again and not
giving you any
specifics he's he is he is
systematically shredding you of all
pretense of all you know cuz look very
often you know actors we come in on the
set and we've thought about the scene
and we've worked out you know I've got
this prop and I'm going to do this thing
with a can I'm you know all these thing
all the tea I'm going to do a thing with
the thing that and and David is the kind
of director where he just wants you to
stop adding all that crap and just say
the words and say them
quickly and mean them and it takes a
while to get to that place I I'll tell
you a story this is a story I just love
because it's it's it's it's in the
exactly the same wheelhouse so Jack
lemon's first movie was a film called it
should happen to you and was directed by
George cuer and Jack tells this story
and it was just an incredibly Charming
story to hear Jack tell he said so I I
I'm doing his picture and let me tell
you I this is a terrific part for me and
I'm doing a scene it's on my first day
it's my first day and it's a terrific
scene and he goes we we do the first
take and and and George cuer comes up to
me and he says Jack I said yeah he said
could you do let's do another one but
just do a little less uh in in this one
and Jack said a little a little less a
little less than what I just did he said
yeah just a little less so he goes we do
another take and and I think boy that
was it I mean let's let's just go home
and uh cuer walked up to it and said
Jack i' let's do another one this time
just a little bit less and Jack said let
less than what I just did now he said
yeah just a little bit less he goes oh
okay so he did another take and cuer
came up and he said Jack just a little
bit less and Jack said a little less
than what I just did he said yes he go
well if I do any less I'm not going to
be acting and cuer said exactly Jack
exactly I mean I guess what you're
saying is it's extremely difficult to
get to the the bottom of a little less
because the power if we just stick even
on seven of your performance is in the
tiniest of subtleties like when you say
oh you didn't know and you turn your
head a little bit and a little bit like
the the little bit maybe a glimmer of a
smile appears on your face that's
subtlety that's less that's hard to get
to I I suppose yeah and also because I I
I I so well
remember I think the work that Brad did
in and also Morgan did in that scene but
the work that Brad had to do where he
had to go I remember rehearsing with him
as we were all staying at this little
hotel nearby that location and we
rehearsed the night before we started
shooting that sequence and I just I mean
it was just incredible to
see the levels of emotions he had to go
through and then the
decision of what do I
do because if I do what he wants me to
do then he wins but if I don't do it
then I'm what kind of a man husband am I
uh I just thought he did really
incredible work so it was also not easy
to not react to to the to the power of
what he was throwing at me um I just
thought it was an
extraordinary um a really extraordinary
scene so what's it like being in that
scene so it's you Brad Pit Morgan
Freeman and Brad Pit is going over the
top just having a mental
breakdown and is weighing these
extremely difficult moral choices as
you're saying but he's like screaming
and in pain and tormented
while you're very subtly
smiling in terms of the writing and in
terms of what the characters had to do
was it was incredible culmination of how
this
character
um could manipulate in the way that he
did and and in the
end
succeed you mentioned Fincher likes to
do a lot of takes that's the the famous
thing about David Fincher
so what are the pros and cons of that I
think I I read that he
does some crazy amount he averages 25 to
65 uh takes and most directors do less
than
10 so yeah sometimes it's timing
sometimes it's literally he has a
stopwatch and he's he's timing how long
a scene is taking and then he'll
say you need to take a minute off this
scene
like a minute yeah a minute off this
scene I want it to move like this so
let's pick it up let's pick up the pace
let's take let's see if we can take a
minute off why the speed why why say it
fast is the important thing for you
think I think because Fincher hates
Indulgence and he wants he wants people
to talk the way they do in
life which is you know we don't take
big dramatic pauses yeah right you know
before we speak we speak we say what we
want we you know and I guess actors like
the dramatic pauses and the the the
indulge in the dramatic they didn't
always like the dramatic pauses I mean
look you didn't want to you go back any
student of acting you go back to the 30s
and the 40s
50s the speed at which actors
spoke not just in the comedies which of
course you know you look at any Preston
Sturges movie and it's incredible how
fast people are talking and how and how
funny things are when they happen that
fast um but then you know acting Styles
changed we got into a different kind of
thing in the late 50s and 60s and and uh
you know a lot of actors are feeling it
which is I'm not saying it's it's a it's
a bad thing it's just that if you want
to keep an audience engaged as Fincher
does and I believe successfully does in
all of his
work um
Pace
timing
movement Clarity
speed are admirable to achieve and all
of that he wants the actor to be as
natural as possible to strip away all
the bullshit of
acting and become human look lucky with
other directors Sam mes is similar I
remember when I walked in to maybe the
first rehearsal for Richard III that we
were doing and I had brought with me a a
canopy of of ailments that my Richard
was going to suffer from uh and uh Sam
you know eventually whittled it down to
like three like maybe your arm and maybe
thing and maybe your leg but let's get
rid of the other 10 things that you
brought into the room because I was you
know I was so excited to you know
capture this character so you know very
often uh Trevor nun is this way a lot a
lot of wonderful directors I've worked
with they're really good at helping you
trim and
edit David Fincher said about you he was
talking in general I think but also
specifically in the moment of hos cars
said that you have exceptional skill
both as an actor and as a performer
former which he says are different
things so he defines the former as
dramatization of a text and the latter
as the seduction of an
audience do you
see uh wisdom in that distinction and
what does it take to do both the
dramatization of a text and the
seduction of an
audience those are two very interesting
descriptions um when I think I guess
when I think performer
I tend to think entertaining I tend to
think uh I tend to think comedy I tend
to think winning over an audience I tend
to think um that there's something about
um that quality of wanting to of wanting
to have people enjoy
themselves um and when you saddle that
against what maybe he means as an actor
which is which is which is which is more
dramatic or more more text driven more
um look I've I've always believed that
my that my job not every actor feels
this way but my job the way that I've
looked at it is that my job is to serve
the
writing and that if I serve the writing
I
will in a sense serve myself because
I'll be in the right World I'll be in
the right context I'll be in the right
style I I I'll I'll have embraced what a
director's you know um it's not my
painting it's someone else's painting
I'm a series of colors and someone
else's
painting and the barometer for me has
always been that when
people stop me and talk to
me about a character I've played and
reference their
name as if they actually exist
that's when I feel like I've gotten
close to doing my
job yeah one of the challenges for me in
this conversation is remembering that
your name is Kevin not Frank or John or
any of these
characters because they live deeply in
the psyche to me that's the
greatest that's the greatest
um um compliment for me as an actor um
I I I love being able to go I mean when
I think
about performers who inspire
me and I remember when I was young and I
was introduced to Spencer
Tracy Henry Fonda Katherine
heern I just I believed who they were I
knew nothing about them they were just
these extraordinary characters doing
this extraordinary stuff and then I
think
more um
recently
contemporary when I think of the work
that Philip seamour Hoffman did and
Heath Ledger and people that
that when I think about what they could
be doing what they could do what they
would have done had they stayed with us
um I'm so ex I'm so excited when I when
I go into a cinema or I go into play and
I completely am taken to some place that
I believe exists and characters that
that become real and those characters
become like
lifelong companions like for me they
travel with you and even if it's the
darkest aspects of human nature they're
always there it's they almost like I
feel like I almost met them and gotten
to know them and gotten to become like
friends with them almost Hannibal Lecter
whether it's the or or Force Gump mhm I
mean I've I feel like I'm like best
friends with for for Gump I know the guy
and I guess he's played by some guy
named Tom but like force Gump is the the
guy I'm friends with yeah and I think
that everybody feels like that when
they're in the audience with great
characters they just kind of they become
part of you in some some way the dark
the The Good the Bad and the Ugly of
them one of the things that I that I
feel that I try to do uh in my
work is when I read something for the
first time when I read a script or a
play and I am
absolutely devastated by it it is it is
the most extraordinary the most
beautiful the most life affirming or
terrifying it's then a process weirdly
of working
backwards
because I want to work in such a way
that that's the experience I give to the
audience when they first see it that
they have the experience I had when I
read
it I remember that there's been times in
the creative process
when something was pointed out to me or
something was I I I I remember I was
doing a play and I was having this
really tough time with a one of the last
scenes in the play and I just couldn't
figure it out I was in rehearsal and
although we had a director in that play
I I called another a friend of mine who
was also director and I and I had him
come over and I said look this scene I'm
just having the toughest I cannot seem
to crack this scene and so we we read it
through a couple of times and then this
this wonderful director named John
swanbeck who would eventually direct me
in a film called the Big Kahuna but this
is before that um he said to me the most
incredible thing he just said um all
right what's the last line you have in
this scene before you fall over and fall
asleep and I said the last line is a
that last drink the old KO and he went
okay I want you to think about what that
line actually
means and then work
backwards and so he left and I sort of
was left with this what like what does
that mean how am I supposed to and then
like a couple of days went by a couple
of days went by and I thought okay so
said what is that line actually mean
well that last drink the old
ko ko
is
knockout which is a boxing
term it's the only boxing term the
writer uses in the play and then I went
back and I realized my friend was so
smart and so incredible to have you know
said ask a question you haven't thought
of asking yet I realized that the
playwright wrote the last round the
eighth round between these two brothers
and it was a
fight physical as well as emotional and
when I brought that into the rehearsal
room to the director was doing that play
he liked that idea and we staged that
scene as if it was the eighth round
although audience wouldn't have known
that but just what I loved about that
was that somebody said to
me ask yourself a question you haven't
asked yourself yet what does that line
mean and then work backwards what is
that like a a catalyst for thinking
deeply about what is magical about this
play this story this narrative that
that's what that is like thinking
backwards that's what that does yeah and
but also because it's just it's it's
this
incredible why didn't I think to ask
that question myself that's what you
have directors for that's what you have
you know so many places where ideas can
come from um but that just illustrates
that even though in my brain I go I
always like to work backwards I I missed
it in that one and I'm very grateful to
my to my friend for having pushed me
into being able to realize what that
meant and to ask the interesting
question the I like the the poetry and
the humility of I'm just a series of
colors in someone else's
painting that was a good
line uh that said you've talked about
improvisation you said that it's all
about the ability to do it again and
again again and again and yet never make
it the same and you also just said that
you you're trying to stay true to the
text so where's the room for
the improvisation that it's never the
same well there's two slightly different
contexts I think one is in the rehearsal
room um improvisation could be a
wonderful device I mean Sam meny for
example will will start uh he'll start a
scene and he he does this wonderful
thing he brings rugs and he brings
chairs and Sofas in and he says well
let's let's put let's put two chairs
here and here you guys let's start in
these chairs far apart from each other
let's see what happens with the scene if
if you're that far apart and so we'll do
the scene that way and then he goes okay
um let's bring a rug in and let's bring
these chairs much closer and let's see
what happens if if if the space if the
space between you is and so then you you
you try it that way and then you know
it's a little harder in Shakespeare to
impro of um but in any situation where
you you want to try and see where where
could a seene go where would the scene
go if I didn't make that choice where
would the scene go if I made this choice
where would the scene go if I didn't say
that or I said something else so that's
how improv can be um a valuable process
to learn um about limits and and
boundaries um
and what's going on with a a character
that somehow you discover in in in
trying something that isn't on the
page then there's the different thing
which is the trying to make it fresh and
trying to make it new and that is really
a reference to
theater
um I'll put it to you this way
[Music]
um anybody loves sports right so you go
and you watch on a pitch you watch on a
tennis game you watch basketball you
watch
football yeah the rules are the same but
it's a different game every time you're
out on that court or on that
field it's no different in
theater yes it's the same lines maybe
even
blocking is
similar but what's different is attack
intention how you are growing in a role
and watching your fellow actors grow in
theirs and how every night it's a new
audience and they're reacting
differently and you literally where you
can go from week one of performances in
a play to week
12 is
extraordinary and the difference
between theater and film
is that no matter how good someone might
think you are in a
movie you'll never be any
better it's frozen whereas I can be
better tomorrow night than I was tonight
I can be better in a week than I was
tonight it is a
living
breathing shifting changing growing
thing every single day but also in
theater there's no safety net if you
fuck it
up everybody gets to see you do that and
if you start giggling on stage everyone
gets to see you do that too which I am
very guilty
of I mean there is
something uh of a seduction of an
audience in theater even more intense
than there is when you're talking about
film just I got a chance to watch the
documentary now in the wings on a world
stage which is uh behind the scenes of
you mentioned uh you teaming up with Sam
Mendes in 2011 to Stage Richard
III uh a play by William Shakespeare I
was also surprised to learn you haven't
really done much Shakespeare or at least
you said that in the uh in the movie but
there's a lot of interesting behind the
scenes stuff there uh first of all the
camaraderie of everybody how
like the bond theater creates especially
when you're
traveling but the another interesting
thing you mentioned with the chairs of
Sam man is trying different stuff it
seemed like everybody was really open to
trying stuff embarrassing themselves
taking risks all of that I suppose
that's part of acting in general but
theater especially just take risks it's
okay to embarrass the shit out of
yourself including the
director and it's also because um you
become a family you know it's unlike a
movie where you know I might have a
scene with so and so on this day and
then another scene with them in a week
and a half and then that's the only
scenes we have in the whole movie
together um every single day when you
show up in the rehearsal room it's the
whole
company you're all up for it every day
you're learning you're growing you're
trying and and there is a um an
incredible
trust that
happens and I was of course fortunate
that that some of the some of the things
I learned and observed about um being a
part of that family being included in
that family and and being a part of
creating that family I I I was able to
observe from from people like Jack Lemon
who Who led many companies that that I
was fortunate to to work in and and and
be a part of there's also a sad moment
where at the end everybody is really sad
to say goodbye because you do form a
family and then it's
over I guess somebody said that that's
just part of theater it's like I mean
there's a kind of assumed goodbye and
that this is it yeah and also there are
sometimes when like 6 months later I'll
wake up in the middle of the night and
I'll
go that's how to play that
scene yeah oh God I just finally figured
it
out so maybe you could speak a little
bit more to that what's the difference
between film acting and live theater
acting I don't really think there is any
I think there's just
you eventually learn about yourself on
film you know when I first did like my
first episode of The Equalizer um you
know it's just it's just it's horrible
it's just so bad um but I didn't know
about myself I didn't so slowly you
begin to learn about yourself but I
think good acting is good acting and I
think that you know if you if a camera
is right here you you know that your
your front row is also your back row you
just don't have to you don't have to do
so much there is in theater a particular
kind of energy almost like an athlete
that you have to have vocally to be able
to get up seven performances a week and
never lose your voice and always be
there and always be alive and always be
doing the best work you can that you
just don't require in film you know you
don't have to have the same um
it it just doesn't require the same uh
kind of stamina that doing a play does
it just feels like also in theater you
have to become the character more
intensely because you can't take a break
you can't take a bathroom break you're
like on stage there's no this is you
yeah but you have no idea what's going
on on stage with the actors I mean I I I
have I have literally laughed through
speeches that I had to give because my
fellow actors were carrots up their nose
or broccoli in their ears or doing
whatever they were doing to make me
laugh so they're just having fun they're
having the time of their life and by the
way Judy Dench is the worst giggler of
all yeah I mean they had to bring the
curtain down on her and Maggie Smith
because they were laughing so hard they
could not continue the play so even when
you're doing like a dramatic monologue
still they're still fucking with you
there's stuff okay that's great that's
good to know you also said interesting
line that improvisation
helps
you uh learn about the
character uh can you explain that so
like through maybe playing with the
different ways of saying the words or
the different ways to bring the words to
life you get to learn about yourself
about the character you're playing it
can be helpful
um but improv is I'm a big such a big
believer in the in the the writing and
in serving the writing and doing the
words the writer
wrote um that improv for for me unless
you're just doing like comedy and you
know like I mean I love improv and in
comedy it's it's brilliant um so much
fun to watch people just come up with
something right there um but you're you
know that that's where you're looking
for laughs and you're you're
specifically in a little scene that's
being created um but I think improv is
has has had value
um but I I I have not experienced it as
much in doing
plays um as I have sometimes in doing in
doing film where you'll you'll start off
rehearsing and a director may say let's
just go off book and see what happens
and I've had moments in film where
someone went off book and it was
terrifying there was a scene I had in
Glen Gary Glenn rth
where the character I play has has
fucked something up it's just screwed
something up and Pacino is
living and so we had the scene where Al
is walking like this and the camera is
moving with him and he is shoo me a new
asshole and in the middle of the take Al
starts talking about me
oh Kevin you don't think we know how you
got this job you don't think we know
whose dick you've been sucking on to get
this part in this movie and I'm
now I'm literally like I don't I don't
know what the hell is
happening but I'm
reacting we got to the end of that take
Al walked up to me and he went
oh that was so good
oh my God that was so good just so you
know the sound I asked them not to
record so you have no dialogue so it's
just me oh that was so good you look you
look like a car wreck yeah and I was
like
yeah and it was actually an incredibly
generous thing that he gave me so that I
would
react oh wow did they use that shot
because you were shot it was my closeup
yeah yeah and yeah that's the take that
was an intense intera I mean what was it
like if we can just Linger on that just
that intense scene with
alucino well he's the reason I got the
movie A lot of people might think
because Jack was in the film that he had
something to do with it but actually I
was doing a play called Lost and Yonkers
on Broadway and we had the same dresser
who worked with him a girl named Laura
it was wonderful uh Laura Bey and uh
she told Al that he should come and see
this play because she wanted to see me
in this play I was playing this gangster
it was fun fun fun part so I didn't know
Pacino came on some night and saw this
play and then like three days later I
got a call to come in an audition for
this Glen greglen Ross which of course I
knew is a play David Mambo's
play and then
uh I auditioned Jamie Foley was the
director who would eventually direct a
bunch of House of Cards wonderful
wonderful
guy and I got the part well I didn't
quite get the part they were going to
bring together the actors that they
thought they were going to give the
parts to on a Saturday at Al's office
and they asked me if I would come and do
a read through and I said who's going to
be there and they said well so and so
and so and so and so then Jack Lemon is
flying and I said don't tell Mr Lemon
that I'm doing the readr is that
possible they were like sure so I'll
never forget this Jack was sitting in a
chair in Pacino's office doing the New
York Times crossword puzzle as he did
every day like this and I walked in the
door and he went oh Jesus Christ is it
possible you could get a job without me
Jesus Christ I'm so tired of holding up
your end of it oh my God
Jesus um so that's I got the job job
because of a Pacino and and you know I I
was it was it was really one of the
first major roles that I ever had in a
film and you know to be working with
that group yeah that's like one of the
greatest Ensemble casts ever we got Al
Pacino Jack Lemon Alec Baldwin Alan Arin
Ed Harris
you Jonathan price it's just incredible
and I would have to say I mean maybe you
can comment you've You' you've talked
about how how much of a mentor and a
friend Jack Clem has been that's one of
his greatest performances ever ever you
have a scene at the end of the movie
with him that was really powerful like
firing on all cylinders you're playing
disdain to Perfection and he's playing
desperation to
Perfection what a scene what was that
like just like at the top of your game
the two of you well by that time we had
done long day journey tonight in the
theater we' done a minseries called the
murder of Mary figan on NBC we done a
film called
Dad that Gary David Goldberg directed
with Ted dansen so this was the fourth
time we were working together and we
knew each other we become he become my
father
figure and and I don't know if you know
that I originally met Jack Lemon when I
was very very
young he was doing a production at the
marer form of a Shan O Casey play called
Juno and the peock with Walter Matthau
and Marine Stapleton and on a Saturday
in December of
1974 my Junior High School drama class
went to a workshop it was called how to
audition and we did this Workshop many
schools in Southern California were part
of this drama Teachers Association so we
got these incredible experiences of
being able to go see professional
Productions and be involved in these
workshops or festivals so I had to get
up and do a monologue in front of Mr
Lemon when I was 13 years old
and he walked up to me at the end of
that and he put his hand on my shoulder
and he said that was a such terrific he
said no I everything I've been talking
about you just did yeah what's your name
I said Kevin he said wellit let me tell
you something when you get finished with
high schools I'm sure you're going to go
on and do theater you should go to New
York and you should study to be an actor
because this is what you're meant to do
with your
life and he was like an
idol and 12 years
later I read in the New York Times that
he was coming to Broadway to do this
production of a Long Day's Journey
tonight a year and some months after I
read this article and I was like I'm
going to play Jamie in that
production and I
then with a lot of
opposition because the cast and director
didn't want to see me they they said
that the director Jonathan Miller uh
Wanted movie actors to play the two
sons and ultimately I I uh I found out
that Jonathan Miller the director was
coming to New York to do a series of
lectures at Alice Tully Hall and I uh
went to try to figure out how I could
maybe meet
him and
uh I was sitting in that theater
listening to this incredible lexury he
was doing and sitting next to me was an
elderly
woman I mean elderly 80 something and
she was asleep
but sticking out of her handbag which
was on the floor was
a invitation to a cocktail reception in
honor of Dr Jonathan Miller and so I I
thought you know she's tired she's
probably going to go home so I I I took
that and walked into this cocktail
reception and ultimately went over to Dr
Miller who was incredibly kind and said
you sit down always very curious what
brings young people to my lectures and I
said to him Eugene O'Neal brought me
here and he was like what what what I've
always wanted to meet him where is he
and I told him that I'd been trying
for 7 months to get an audition for long
day journey and that his American
casting directors were telling my agents
that he wanted big American movie stars
and at that moment he turned and he saw
one of those casting director who was
there that night CU I knew he was going
to be in New York starting auditions
that
week and she was staring daggers at
me and he just got it and he said to
someone have a pen and he took the
little paper started writing he said
listen Kevin there there are many
situations in which casting directors
have a lot of say and a lot of power and
a lot of Leverage and then there are
other situations where they just take
director's messages and on this one
they're taking my messages this is where
I'm St make sure you people get to me we
start auditions on
Thursday and on Thursday I had an
opportunity to come in and audition for
this play that I've been working on and
preparing
and at the end of it I did four scenes
at the end of it he said to me that
unless someone else came in and blew him
against the wall like I had just done as
far as he was concerned I pretty much
had the part but I couldn't tell my
agents that yet because I had to come
back and read with Mr Lemon
and so 3 months later in August of
1985 I found myself in a room with Jack
Lemon again at 890 Broadway which is
where they rehearse a lot of Broadway
plays and we did four scenes together
and I was toppling over him I was
pushing him I was I was
relentless and I'll never forget at the
end of
that lemon came over to me he put his
hand on my shoulder and he said that
would you should touch a terrific I
never thought we'd find the rotten kid
but he's it Jesus Christ what the hell
was
that and I ended up spending the next
year of my life with that
man so it turns out he was
right yeah this world works in
mysterious ways it also speaks to the
fact of the power of somebody you look
up to giving words of encouragement CU
those can just reverberate through your
whole life and just like make the path
clear I've always we used to we used to
joke that uh if every contract came with
a Jack Lemon Clause it would be a more
beautiful
world beautifully said Jack Lemon is one
of the greatest actors ever what do you
think makes him so damn
good wow
um I think he I I think he truly set out
in his
life to accomplish what his father said
to him on his
deathbed his father was Dy his father
was by the way called the dut King in
Boston and uh not in the entertainment
business at all he was literally owned a
doughnut company and uh when he was
passing away Jack said the last thing my
father said to me was go out there and
spread a little sunshine
shine and I truly think that's what
Jack loved to
do I remember this
um and I don't know if this is uh will
answer your question but I think it's
revealing about what he's able to do and
what he was able to do and how that
ultimately influenced what I was able to
do Sam endes had never directed a film
before American
Beauty and so what he did was he took
the best elements of theater and applied
them to the process so we rehearsed it
like a
play in a sound stage where everything
was laid out like it would be in a play
and this couch will be
here
and he'd sent me a couple of tapes he'd
sent me a two cassette tapes one that
he' likeed to call pre- Lester before he
begins to um move in a New Direction and
then post Lester and they just were
different songs
um and then he said to me one day and I
think always thought this was brilliant
of Sam to use lemon knowing what lemon
meant to
me he said when was the last time you
watched the
apartment and I saidh I don't know I
mean I love that movie so much he goes I
want you to watch it again and then
let's talk
so I went and I watched the movie
again and we sat down and Sam
said what lemon does in that film is
incredible because there is never a
moment in the movie where we see him
change he just
evolves and he becomes the man he
becomes because of the experiences that
he has the course of the film but
there's this remarkable consistency in
who he becomes and that's what I need
you to do is Lester I don't want the
audience to ever see him
change I want him to evolve and so we
did some I mean first of all it was just
a great
Direction and then second of all we did
some things that people don't know we
did to Aid that gradual
shift of that man's character first of
all I had to be in the best shape from
the beginning of the movie because we
didn't shoot it in sequence so I was in
this crazy shape I had this wonderful uh
trainer named Mike torsa who just was
incredible but so what we did was in
order to then show this gradual shift
was I had three different hair
pieces I had three different kinds of
costumes of different colors and
sizes and I had different makeup so in
the beginning I was wearing a kind of
drab dull
slightly you know uninspired hairpiece
and my makeup was kind of gray and
boring and I was a little bit there were
times when I was like too much like this
and Sam would go Kevin you look like
Walter Matha would you please stand up a
little bit we're sort of Midway through
at this point and the then at a certain
point the wig changed and it had little
highlights in it a little more color a
little more the makeup became a little
the the suits got a little tighter and
then finally a third wig that was golden
highlights and sunshine and and you know
rosy cheeks and tight fit and these are
what we call theatrical tricks you know
this is this is how you an audience
doesn't even know it's happening but it
is this gradual and I just always felt
that that was such
a um a brilliant
way because he knew what I felt about
Jack and when you watch the apartment it
is
extraordinary that he doesn't ever
change he just so I'm
I'm and in fact I I thanked Jack um when
I won the
Oscar and
uh he
I I did my thank you speech and I walked
off stage and I remember I had to sit
down for a moment because I didn't want
to go I didn't want to go to The Press
Room because I wanted to see if Sam was
going to
win and so I was waiting and my phone
rang and it was lemon he said you're a
son of a bitch I said I said what he
goes first of all congratulations and
thanks for thanking me cuz you know God
knows you couldn't have done it without
me he said second of all he said you
know how long it took me to win from
supporting actor I wanted for Mr Roberts
and it took me like 10 12 years to win
Oscar you did it in four you son of a
bitch
yeah the apartment was I mean it's
widely considered one of the greatest
movies
ever people sometimes refer to as a
comedy which is an interesting kind of
classification I suppose that's a lesson
about comedy that the
best uh the best comedy is the one
that's basically a tragedy well I mean
some people think Clockwork Orange is a
comedy and I'm not saying there aren't
some good laughs in Clockwork Orange but
yeah you know it's I mean yeah what's
that line
between uh comedy and tragedy for
you I well I if it's a line it's a line
I cross all the time
because I've tried
always to find the
humor um unexpected sometimes uh maybe
inappropriate sometimes maybe
shocking but I've tried in I think
almost every dramatic role I've had to
have a sense of humor and to be able to
bring
that uh along with everything else that
is
serious because
frankly that's how we deal with stuff in
life you know I think uh Sam menz
actually said in the N
documentary something
like with great theater with with great
stories you find humor on the journey to
the Heart of Darkness something like
this very poetic stood to me I'm sorry I
can't be that poetic I'm very sorry but
it's true I mean the the the people have
interacted in this world have been to a
war zone
and the ones who have lost the most and
have suffered the most are are usually
the ones who are able
to uh make jokes the quickest and the
jokes are often dark and absurd and
cross every single line no political
correctness all of that sure well I mean
you know it's like uh the great Mary
Tyler Moore Show where they can't stop
giggling at at the Clown funeral I mean
it's it's just one of the great episodes
ever you know giggling at a funeral is
as bad as farting at a funeral and you
know I'm I'm sure that there's some
people who've done
both oh man uh so you mentioned American
Beauty and the idea of
uh not changing but evolving that's
really interesting because that movie is
about like finding
yourself it's a it's a philosophically
profound movie it's about various
characters in their own ways finding
their own identity in a world where um
maybe a system of a materialistic system
that wants you to be like everyone else
and so I mean Lester is really
transforms himself throughout the movie
and you're saying the challenge there is
to still be the same human being
fundamentally yeah and I also think that
the film
was
powerful because you had three very
honest and genuine portrayal of young
people and then you had Lester behaving
like a young person um doing things that
were unexpected and and uh and I think
that
um the honesty with which it dealt with
those uh issues that those teenagers
were going through and the honesty with
which it dealt with what Lester was
going through um I think our some of the
reasons why the film had the response
that it
did from so many people I mean I I used
to get
stopped and someone would say to me when
I first saw American Beauty I was
married and the second time I saw it I
wasn't and I was like well we weren't
trying to increase the divorce rate you
know that wasn't Our intention but it is
interesting how so many people
um have those kinds of crazy
fantasies and what
I admired so much about who Lester was
as a person why I wanted to play him is
because in the end he makes the right
decision I think a lot of people live
lives of quiet desperation
in a in a job they don't
like in a marriage they're unhappy in
and to see
somebody living that life and then
saying fuck
it in every way possible and not just in
a cynical way but in a way that opens
them opens Lester up to see the beauty
in the world that's you know the beauty
in American Beauty it's well and you
know you may have to Blackmail your boss
to get there but you know
and in that there's a bunch of humor
also in the uh in the anger and
the in the absurdity of sort of taking a
stand against the Conformity of
Life there there's there's humor and um
I read somewhere that the scene the
dinner scene which is kind of play likee
where
Lester slams the plate against the wall
was improvised by you the uh the
slamming of the plate against the wall
no no absolutely the internet absolutely
absolutely uh uh written and and
directed
uh um yeah can't take credit for that
the plate okay well that was a that was
a genius interaction there um there's
something about the dinner
table and losing your shit at the dinner
table having a fight and losing your
shit at the dinner table um where where
else like Yellowstone
was another situation where it's a
family at the dinner table and then one
of them says fucking I'm not eating this
anymore and I'm going to create a scene
right it's a beautiful kind of
environment for dramatic scenes or or
Nicholson in The Shining I
mean there's some there's some family
scenes gone ay in that movie The
contrast between you and Annette Benning
in that
scene creates The Genius of that scene
so how much of acting is the dance
between two
actors well with an
nette I just adored working with her and
we were the two actors that Sam wanted
from the very beginning much against the
will of the higher ups who wanted other
actors to play those roles but
um I've known
Annette since we
did a screen test together for Milos
Foreman for a film he did of the L on
dangerus movie it was a different film
from that one but it was the same story
and I've always thought she is just
remarkable and I think that the work she
did in that film the relationship that
um we were able to
build um for me the saddest part of that
success was that she didn't win the
Oscar and I
felt she should have what what kind of
interesting direction did you get from
from Sam mendz in how you approach
playing Lester and the
different how to take on the different
scenes there's a lot of just brilliant
scenes in that movie well I I'll I'll
share with you a story that most people
don't know
um which
is our first two days of shooting were
in
Smiley the place where I get a job in a
fast food place yeah it's a burger joint
yeah yeah and um I guess it was like
maybe the third day or the fourth day of
shooting we' now done that and I said to
Sam so how how are the dailies you know
how how do they look he goes which ones
I said well the first Smiley he goes oh
um they're shit and I went yeah no how
were they he goes no they're shit I hate
them I hate everything about
them I hate the costumes I hate the
location I hate that you're inside I
hate the way you acted I Hate Everything
But the script so I've gone back to the
studio and asked them if we can reshoot
the first two
days and I was like Sam
this is your very first movie you you're
going back to Steph Spielberg and saying
I need to reshoot the the first two days
entirely and he went
yeah and that's exactly what we did a
couple of weeks later they decided that
it was now a drive-thru because Annette
and Peter Galler used to come into the
place and ordered from the counter now
Sam had decided it has to be a
drive-thru you have to be in the window
of the the drive-thru changed the
costumes and we reshot those first two
days and Sam
said it was actually a moment of
incredible confidence because he said
the worst thing that could possibly have
happened happened in my first two days
and after
that I was like I know what I'm doing
and I knew I had to reshoot it and it
was absolutely right and I guess that's
what a great director must do is have
the guts in that moment to re-shoot
everything I that's a pretty gutsy move
two other little things to share with
you about Sam but the way he
is you wouldn't know it but the original
script opened and closed with a
trial
Ricky was
accused of Lester's murder and the movie
was bookended by this trial it's a very
different movie which they shot the
entire trial for
weeks okay wow yeah and I used to fly in
my
dreams you know those opening shots over
the neighborhood I used to come into
th