Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Jordan Jonas winner of alone season 6 a
show where the task is to survive alone
in the Arctic Wilderness longer than
anyone else he is widely considered to
be one of if not the greatest
competitors on that show he has a
fascinating life story that took him
from a farm in Idaho and hoboing on
trains Across America to traveling with
NAD tribes in
Siberia all that helped make him into a
worldclass Explorer Survivor Hunter
Wilderness guide and most importantly a
great human being with a big heart and a
big smile this was a truly fun and
fascinating
conversation let me also mention that at
the end after the episode I'll start
answering some questions and we'll tried
to articulate my thinking on some top of
Mind topics so if that's of interest to
you keep listening after the episode is
over this is Alex Ren podcast to support
it please check out our sponsors in the
description and now dear friends here's
Jordan
Jonas you won alone season 6 and I think
are still considered to be one of if not
the most successful Survivor on that
show uh so let's go back let's look at
the big picture can you uh tell me about
the show alone how does it work yeah
it's a show where they take 10
individuals and each person gets 10
items off of a list you know basic items
would be an axe a saw a frying pan you
know some pretty basic stuff and then
they send them all drop them off all in
the woods with a few cameras and uh so
the people are actually alone there's
not a crew or anything and then you uh
basically live there as long as you can
you know and so the person that lasts
the longest you know once the second
place person Taps out they come and get
you and that and that individual wins so
it's a it's a pretty legit challenge you
know they they drop you off helicopter
flies out and you're not going to get
your next meal until you make it happen
so you have to figure out the shelter
you have to figure out the source of
food and then it gets colder and colder
cuz I guess they drop you out in a
moment where it's going into the winter
yeah they typically do it in temperate
colder climates things like that and
they start in you know September October
so time's ticking when they drop you off
and uh yeah the pressure's on you got
it's you know you get overwhelmed with
all the things you have to do right away
like oh man I'm not going to eat again
until I actually shoot or catch
something got to build a shelter it's
pretty overwhelming figure your whole
location out but it's interesting
because once you're there a little while
you kind of get into a well at least for
me it did there was like a week or maybe
not a week but that I was kind of a
little more annoyed with things you know
it's like oh my sight sucks sucks and
then and then you kind of accept it like
you know what it is what it is no Co no
amount of complaining is going to do
anybody any good so I'm just going to
make it happen and so then or you know
do my best to and then I felt like I got
in a Zone and I felt like I was right
back in kind of Siberia or in that head
space and I I found it actually really
enjoyed it i' had been a little bit out
of I guess you call it the game cuz I
had had uh child and and so when we had
our daughter we came back to the States
and then a bunch of s things happened
and I just ended up we didn't end up
going back to Russia so there' been a
couple years that I was just you know we
raising the little girl and boy then and
then so you've gotten a little soft so I
was like did I got a little soft to
F but then it was fun how like after
just some days there I was like oh man I
feel like I feel like I'm at home now
and then it was like you're kind of in
that flow State and it was actually
there's a few moments like when you left
the ladder up or with the moose that you
kind of screwed up a little bit oh yeah
how do you go from that moment of like
frustration to the moment of acceptance
I mean the more you put yourself in life
in positions that are kind of outside
your comfort zone or push your abilities
the more often you're going to screw up
and then yeah the more opportunity you
have to learn from that and then to be
honest it's kind of funny but you almost
get to a position where
you you don't feel that uncomfort it's
not unexpected you know you kind of
expect you're going to mess up here and
there you I remember particularly with
the um the Moose the first moose I saw I
had a great shot at it but I had a hard
time judging distance because it was in
a mud flat which means it's hard to it's
hard to tell yardage you know some
because you're usually typically going
by trees or markers be like Oh I'm
probably 30 yard away this was a giant
moose and he was 40 something yards away
and I estimated that he was 30 something
yards away so I was way off and shot and
Dro between his legs and then I realized
I had not grabbed my quiver so I only
had one shot and I just watched him turn
around and walk off but I was struck
initially with like I I actually noticed
how unmad I was I was like oh this is
actually I was like that was awesome
that was like seeing a dinosaur that was
really cool and then I was like oh what
an idiot how to miss but then I was like
but it made me that much more determined
to make it happen again it was like
okay nobody's going to make this happen
except myself you can't can't complain
it wouldn't have done me any good to go
back and mope about it and so then I was
like I had a thought I was like oh I
remember these Nate the native guys
telling me they used to like build these
giant fences and funnel game into
certain areas and stuff and I was like
man that's a lot of calories but I have
to make that happen again now so I like
kind of
went out there and tried that and that
was kind of a attempt at something too
it could have failed or not worked but
sure enough it worked and the
opportunity came again the Moose came
wanding along and I was able to get it
but being able to take failure as soon
as you can the better accept it and then
learn from it is kind of a muscle you
have to exercise a little bit well it's
interesting cuz in this case the cost of
failure is like you're not going to be
able to eat yeah that that was really I
mean the the most interesting thing
about that show was how high the stakes
felt because it didn't feel you know you
didn't tell yourself you're on a show at
least I didn't you just felt like it was
you're going to starve to death if you
don't make this happen and so the stakes
felt so high and and um it was an
interesting thing to tap into because I
mean so many of our ancestors probably
all just dealt with that on a regular
basis but it's something that we all all
the modern amenities and such and food
security that we don't deal with and uh
it was interesting to tap into what a
kind of a peak mental experience that is
when you really really need something to
survive and then it happens it's you
can't imagine I mean that's what our all
our dopamine and receptors are tuned for
that experience in particular so it was
yeah it was pretty awesome but the
pressure felt very on like I I always
felt the pressure of of providing or
starving and then there's a situation
when you left the ladder up right and
you needed fat and uh what is it the
Wolverine ate some of the fat right yeah
well it was when I got the Moose I was
so happy the most Joy I could almost
experience Max maxed out but I didn't
think I uh I didn't think I won at that
point I never thought like oh that's my
ticket to Victory I thought holy crap
it's going to be me against somebody
else that gets a moose now and we're
going to be here 6 eight months who
knows long and so I can't I can't be
here 6 eight months and still lose so
I've got to like I've got to outproduce
somebody else with a moose so I had all
that in my head and I already was of
course pretty thin and and so I was just
like man somebody else gets a moose I'm
still going to be behind and so
everything felt like precious to me and
I had found a plastic jug and I put a
whole bunch of the moose's fat in this
plastic jug and set it up on a little
shelf I thought you know what if a bear
comes I'll probably hear it and I'll
come out and be able to shoot it so I
went to sleep and I woke up the next
morning and I went out and I was like
where's that jug started and then I was
like wait a second what are all these
prints and I started looking around and
it took a second to dawn on me because I
haven't interacted with wol Wolverines
very often in life and uh I was like oh
those are Wolverine tracks and he was
just so much sneakier than bear would
have been or something so it kind of
surprised me and he took off with that
jug of fat and so then I went from
feeling pretty good about myself to like
now I'm losing again against whoever you
know this other person is with a moose
so I I again kind of the pressure came
back to Oh no I got to produce again you
know it wasn't the end of the world and
I think they may have exaggerated a
little bit how little fat I had left you
know I still had there a moose has a lot
of fat but it did make me feel like I
was at a disadvantage again and so yeah
that was pretty that was pretty intense
cuz those Wolverines they're bold little
animals and they and he was basically
saying No this is is my
moose and I had to counter his claims
well they yeah they're really really
smart they figure out a way to get to
places really effectively Wolverines are
like fascinating in that way uh so let's
go to that happy moment the Moose yeah
you are the first and one of the only
contestants to have ever killed a moose
on the show a big game animal with a bow
and arrow so this is date 20 so can you
take me through the kill yeah so I had
missed one and I just decided I'm not
here to starve I'm here to like try to
become sustainable so I was like I don't
care if it's a risk I'm going to build
that fence I built it I would just pick
berries and call Moose every you know
every day and it was actually really
Pleasant just sit in a berry patch and
call
Moose but then I also had this whole
trap and snare lines set out everywhere
so I had all these I was getting rabbits
um but I and I was actually taking a
rabbit out of a snare when I heard a
Clank cuz I had set up kind of an alarm
system with with string and cans so it's
a brilliant idea way yeah it's another
thing that could have not worked but it
worked and it came through and I was
like oh I heard the cans clink and I was
like no way and so I ran over I didn't
know what it was exactly but something
was coming along the fence and I ran
over and jumped in the bush next to the
funnel exit on the fence and sure enough
the Big Moose came running up and you
know your gets pounding like crazy
you're like no way no way I probably
could have waited a little longer and
had a perfect broadside shot but I took
the shot when he was uh he was he was
pretty close like 24 yards but he was
quartering towards me which makes it a
little harder to make a a perfect Kill
Shot you know and so I hit it and it
took off running and I just thought you
know I was super excited I couldn't
believe I actually you know I was like
oh my gosh I got the Boost I think that
was a really good shot you get all
excited but then it plays back in your
head and particularly when you're first
learning to hunt there's always an
animal that gets away you know and you
like make a bad decision or not a great
shot or something and it's just it's
just part of it and so of course you're
like I'm not going to be satisfied until
I see this thing so I followed the blood
trail a little while and I saw some
bubbly blood which meant it was hitting
the lungs which meant it's not going to
live you know you'll get it and so as
long as you don't mess it up and so I
went back to my shelter and waited an
hour I skinned to that rabbit that had
caught and then super nervous the
slowest hour I
ever and then I followed it along ended
up losing the blood trail I was like no
no and then I was like well if there's
no blood I'm just going to follow the
path that I would go if I was a moose
you know like the least resistance
through the woods so I followed kind of
along the shore there and enough I saw
him up there I was like you know I was
so excited lay down but uh but he hadn't
died yet and so he just sat there and
and he would stand up and I would just
like no no no no and he would lay back
down like yes and then he would stand up
no and it was like that for you know a
couple hours that took him and then
finally at one point I you know and a
lot of people have asked like why
wouldn't you go finish it off um so when
an animal like that gets hit it had no
idea what hit it you know just all of a
sudden it's like ah something got it and
it ran off and it lays down and it's
actually fairly calm and it doesn't
really know what's going on and if you
can leave it in that state it'll kind of
just bleed out and as as peacefully as
possible um if you go chase after it
that's when you lose an animal because
as soon as it knows it's being hunted
you know it gets panicked adrenaline and
it can just run and run and run and
you'll never find it so I didn't want it
to see me I knew if I tried to get it
with another Arrow there's a chance I
could have finished it off but there's
also a not bad chance that it would see
me take off or even attack cuz moose can
be a little dangerous and so uh I just
chose to wait it out and at one point it
stood up and fell over and I could tell
it had died and walked over like you
actually touch it and you're just like
who no way like that whole burden of
weeks of you're gonna starve you're
gonna starve and it got rid of that
demon to be honest it's one of the
happiest moments of my life it's really
hard to replicate that Joy because it it
was just so so real you're so directly
connected to your needs it's all so
simple you know it was it was a peak
experience for sure and will you worried
that it would take many more hours and
it would take it into the night yeah I
was I mean until you actually have your
hands on it I was worried the whole time
it's a pretty nerve-wracking period
there between when you get it and when
you actually recover the animal get your
hands on it so it took longer than I
wanted but I finally got it can you
actually speak to the the kill shot
itself just for people who don't hunt
yeah like what it takes to stay calm to
to to not freak out too much to like
wait but not wa too long yeah yeah I
mean another thing about hunting is that
for every animal you get you probably
don't get you know nine or 10 that that
just turned the wrong way when you were
drawn back or went way behind a tree or
you never had a clean shot or whatever
it is and so um every time you can see a
moment coming you know your heart really
starts beating and you have to like
breathe through it I can almost you know
you almost feel the nervousness of it
and then uh and then you just try to
stay calm you know like whatever you do
just try to stay calm wait for it to
come up drop back you you've practice
shooting a lot so you have like kind of
a technique like I'm going to go back
touch my face draw my elbow tight and
then the arrow is going to let loose a
muscle memory most it's kind of muscle
memory you have a little trigger like
draw That Elbow tight and then and then
uh then it happens and then you just
watch the Arrow and see where it goes
now with the animal you know you try to
do it ethically that is like make as
good of a shot as you can make sure it
is either hit in the heart or both lungs
and when that happens it's a pretty
quick death which is death is a part of
life and but honestly for a wild animal
that's probably the best way to go they
could they could have um now when a
animal's kind of walking towards you if
it's walking towards you but not
directly towards you that's what you
call quartering towards you you can
picture it's actually pretty difficult
to hit both lungs because the shoulder
blade and all that bone is in the way so
you want to so you have to make a
perfect shot to get them both and to be
honest when I took my shot I was a
couple inches or a few inches right and
so it went went through through the
first lung and then it sunk the arrow
all the way into the moose and but it
didn't it allowed that second lung to
stay breathing which which meant the
Moose stayed alive longer what's your
relationship with the animal in a
situation like that you said death is a
part of yeah that's an interesting
thought because no matter what your
relationship
to however you choose to go through life
whether you know whatever you eat
whatever you do
um death is a part of life you know like
every animal that's out there is living
off of a dead even plants you know it's
all it's all we're all part of this
ecosystem I think it's really easy in a
particularly in an urban environment but
anywhere to think that we're separate
from the ecosystem but we are very much
a part of it um whether it be you know
farming requires you know all this
habitat to be turned into growing
soybeans and and when you get the plows
and the combines you know you're losing
all kinds of different animals and all
kind of potential
habitat this so it's not costree and so
when you realize that then you want to
produce the food and the things you
need uh in an ethical manner so I uh so
for me
hunting plays a really major role in
that like I literally know how many
animals a year it takes to feed my
family and myself I actually know the
exact number and it's like and I know
what the cost of that is and I'm aware
of it because I'm out in the woods and I
see see these like beautiful elk and
moose and I I really love the species
love the animals but there is a fact
that one of those individuals you know
is going to have to feed me and and
particularly like on aan it was very
heightened that experience so I shot
that one animal and I was so so thankful
you know that I wanted to give that big
guy a hug and like hey sorry it was you
but yeah had to be somebody yeah there's
that there's that picture you just
almost hugging it right totally and you
you can also think about the the
calories the the protein the fat all of
that that that comes from that that will
feed you right you're so grateful for it
like the the Gratitude is is like you
know definitely there what about the bow
and arrow perspective well when you hunt
with a bow you just get so much more up
close to the animals you know you you
can't just get it from 600 yards away
you actually have to sneak in within 30
or so yards and uh when you do that the
experiences you have are just they're
way more dragged out so you know your
heart's beating longer you have to
control your nerves longer more often
than not it doesn't go your way and the
thing gets away and you know you've been
hiking around in the woods for a week
and then your opportunity arises and
floats
away like no and then but at the same
time that's the only time uh when you
like really have those interactions with
the animals where you got this bugling
bull you know like tearing at the trees
right in front of you and other cow elk
and animals running around you know you
get you get you end up
having really uh I don't know D say
intimate experiences with the animal
just because because you're in it you're
kind of in its world you're playing its
game it has its senses to defend itself
and you have your wit to try to to get
over those and it really becomes
you know it's not easy they're not it
becomes kind of that chess game and
those prey animals are always tuned in
it's you know slightest stick they
looking for wolves or for whatever it is
so um there's something really pure and
fun about it you know I will say there
is a aspect that is fun there's no
denying it it's like how
we're you know people have been hunting
forever and and uh I think it speaks to
that part of us somehow but
and I think bow hunting is probably the
most pure form of it and that you get
those experiences more often than with a
rifle so I I don't know I I enjoy it a
lot and and the way they do regulations
and such um kind of the best times to
hunt are usually allowed for bow because
they're trying to you know keep it fair
for the animal and such so so the
distance the close distance makes you
more in touch with sort of uh the the
Natural Way of the predator and prey and
you're just one you're one of the
Predators mhm where you have to be
clever you have to be quiet you have to
be calm you have to all of that Y and
the full Challenge and the luck involved
in catching the same thing as the
Predators do exactly how many times do
they snap a stick and watch them run off
and like darn my stock was failed or you
know so yeah you're just in that in that
ecosystem how'd you learn to to shoot
the bow yeah I was I didn't grow up
hunting I grew up in a area that a lot
of people hunted but my dad wasn't
really into it and so I never got into
it until until I lived in Russia with
the natives it was just such a part of
everything we did and a part of our life
that when I came back I got a bow and I
started doing archery in Virginia they
had it was a pretty easy way to hunt cuz
the deer were overpopulated and you
could get these Urban Archer permits so
You' go out and you know every couple
days you'd have an opportunity to shoot
a a deer that they needed population
control and so there were a lot of them
and it gave you a lot of opportunities
to learn quickly so that's what got me
into it and then I found I really
enjoyed it do you practice with the with
the Target also or just practice out oh
no I would definitely practice with the
target a lot you want to again you kind
of have an obligation to do your best
cuz you don't want to be flinging arrows
into like the leg of an animal and it's
a cool way h hly to provide quality meat
for the family you know it's all raised
naturally and wild and free until you
bring it home into the freezer so so if
we step back uh what are the 10 items
you brought and what's actually the
challenge of figuring out which items to
bring yeah the challenge is that you
don't exactly know what your sight
opportunities are going to be so you
don't really know should I bring a
fishing net am I going to even have a
spot to net or not and things like that
I brought a axe a saw um Leatherman Wave
uh Pharaoh Rod is like a Mak Sparks to
start a fire a frying pan a sleeping
bag a fishing kit a bow and arrow
trapping wire and
paracord and so those are my 10 items is
any uh any regrets any no major regrets
I I took I took the saw kind of I
thought it would be more of a Gallery
saver then I I didn't really need it I
in hindsight if I was doing you know
season seven instead of six and got to
watch I would have taken the the net cuz
I I just planned to make a net but I
would have rather just had two Nets
brought one and left the saw because in
the Northern woods in particular every
tree is you know the size of your arm or
leg you can chop it down with an ax and
a couple swings yeah yeah you don't
really need the saw um and so it was
handy at times and useful but I think it
was my
if I had to do nine items I would have
been just fine without the saw so two
nests would just expand your uh food
Gathering
potential and then the in terms of
trapping you were okay with just the
little you brought the snare wire was
good um I ran some you know I put out I
used all my snare wire I ran trap line
which is just a series of traps through
the woods and brush every place you see
sign put a snare put a little Mark on
the tree so I knew where that snare was
and just make these paths through the
woods and I put out you know I don't
know how many 150 200 snares so every
day I'd get a rabbit or two out of them
and then so I had a lot of rabbits but
uh once I got the Moose I actually took
all those snares down because I didn't
want to catch anything needlessly and oh
you come to find out you can't live off
of rabbits man cannot live off a rabbit
alone it turns out so you set up a huge
number of traps mhm you were also
fishing and then always on the lookout
for uh moose yeah so like what what's in
terms of survival if you were to do it
over again over and over and over and
over like how do
you um maximize your chance of having
enough food to survive for a long time
you have to be you have to be really
adaptable because everything's going to
it's always going to look different your
situation your location I actually had a
what I thought was a pretty good plan
going into Al loan and it just the you
know the location didn't allow for what
I thought it would what was the plan
well I thought I would just catch a
bunch of fish cuz I'm on a really good
fishing lake I catch a whole bunch of
fish and let them rot for a little while
and then just drag them all through the
woods into a big pile and then hunt a
bear on that Big Fish
pile that was the plan and I thought but
when I got there uh for one I had a hard
time catching fish off the bat you know
it they didn't come like I was hoping
and then for for two it had burned prior
so there were no berries and so there
were very few berries which meant there
weren't grous there weren't be they
weren you know they had all gone to
other places where the berries were and
so what I had grown accustomed to kind
of relying on in Siberia wasn't there
there you know so in in Russia which was
a similar environment it was just Grouse
and berries and fish and some berries
and fish and then occasionally you know
you get a moose or something but I had
to reassess which was part of me being
grumpy at the start like this place
sex and then and then once I reassessed
and and and you know right away I saw
that there were moose tracks and such so
I just started a plan for that I moved
my uh camp in a into a area that was as
removed as I could be from where all the
action is where the tracks were so that
I wasn't disturbing animal patterns I
made sure the wind the predominant wind
was blowing out my scent to Sea and or
you know to the water and then really to
be honest if you want to actually
survive somewhere is different than
alone but you do have to be active and
it has to you're going to have to you're
not going to live you're not going to be
sustainable by you know starving it out
youd have to Fig unlock the key that is
sustainability and I think there's a lot
of areas that still have that potential
but you have to figure out what it is
it's usually going to be a combination
of fishing you know trapping and then
hunting and then once you have some the
fishing and trapping will get you until
you have some success hunting and then
that'll buy you three or four months of
time to continue another you know to
keep hunting again and you just have to
roll off of that but every you know
depends on where you are what
opportunities are there so okay so
that's the process fishing and trapping
until you're successful hunting and then
the successful hunt uh buys you some
more time mhm right right just go year
and then you just go re like that and
that's how people did it forever the
pressure I noticed it you know with that
you got that moose and then you're happy
for a week or so and then you start to
be like you know this is finite I'm GNA
have to do this again and you imagine if
you had a family that was going to
starve if you weren't successful you
know this next time and there just
always that pressure you know made me
really like appreciate the amount of
what people had to deal with well in
terms of being active like so you have
to do stuff all all day so you get up so
and planning MH like what am I going to
in the in the midst of the frustration
you have to figure out like what's
what's the strategy like how do you put
up all the traps what's is that a
decision like you know most people like
sit at their desk and have like a
calendar what are you like figuring out
like one thing about Wilderness life in
general is it's remarkably less
scheduled than anything we deal with
schedules are fairly unique to the
modern context you'd wake up and you
just sort of you have a you know
Confluence of things you want to do
things you need to do things you should
do and you just kind of tackle them as
you see fit as it flows in you know so
and that's actually one of the things
that you people really that I really
appreciate about that lifestyle is it
really is you're kind of in that flow
and so I'd wake up and be like H maybe
I'll go fishing and then I'll wander
over and fish and then I'd be like I'm
going to go check the Trap line add
every day if I add five or 10
snares you know you're constantly adding
to your productive potential and then uh
but nothing's really scheduled you're
just kind of flying by the seat of your
pants but then there's a lot of instinct
that's already loaded in so much like
you already just like wisdom from all
the times you've had to do it before
you're just actually operating a lot on
Instinct like you said where to find to
place a shelter like how hard is that
calculation where to place the shelter
if you're like dropped off and this is
all new to you of course all those
things are going to be things you have
to really think through and plan when
you're thinking about a shelter you have
to think of oh here's a nice flat spot
you know that's a good place but also is
there firewood nearby and if I'm going
to be here for months is there enough
firewood that I'm not going to be
walking a half a mile to get a dry piece
of wood is the water nearby is there is
it is it somewhat open but also
protected from the elements cuz
sometimes you get a beautiful spot it is
great on a calm day and then wind comes
like and so there's all these factors
you know even down to taking in what
game is doing in the area also and how
that relates to where your shelter is
you said you have to consider where the
action will be and you want to be away
from the action but close enough to it
to see it yeah you want to be yeah right
and so uh ideally you know it depends
you're always going to make give and
takes and one thing with shelters and
location selection of stuff it's another
thing you just have to trust your
ability to adapt in the situation
because you everybody has a particular
you know you got an idea of a shelter
you're going to build but then you get
there and maybe there's a good Cliff
that you can incorporate you know or May
and then you just become creative and
that's a really fun process too to just
allow your creativity to try to flourish
in that what kind of shelters are there
there's all kinds of philosophies on
shelters which is fun uh people it's fun
to see people try different things mine
was fairly basic for the simple reason
that I had lived you know Winters
through Winters in Siberia in a teepee
so I knew I didn't need like anything
too robust as long as I had calories I'd
be warm and I wasn't particularly
worried about the cold um but you'll see
so I kept my shelter really pretty
simple with idea that I built a simple
A-frame type shelter and then most of my
energy is going to be focused on getting
calories and then of course there's
always going to be downtime and in that
downtime I can tweak modify improve my
shelter and that'll just be a con
process that by the by the time you're
there a few months you'll have all the
Kinks worked out it'll be a really nice
little setup but you don't have to start
with that necessarily because you got
other needs you got to focus on that
said you'll see a lot of people on a
loan that really focus on you know
building the Log Cabin because they want
to be secure or uh incorporating you
know whatever the Earth has around
whether it be rocks or whether it be
digg in a hole you know and we've seen
some really cool shelters and I I I'm
not you knock it everybody's got there's
all Different Strokes for different
folks but I in my particular idea was to
keep it fairly simple improve it with
time but spend most of my energy you
know the shelter you really need to
think about it can't be Smoky because
that'll be miserable but it is nice to
have a fire inside so you need to have a
fire inside that's not going to be
dangerous and uh smoke free and then
also airtight because you're never going
to have a warm shelter out there because
you don't have seals and things like
that but as long as the air is not
moving through it you can have a warm
enough shelter with a fire with a fire
and dryer socks and stuff how do you get
the smoke out of the shelter if you have
good clay and mud and rock you can build
yourself a fireplace which is
surprisingly not that hard you know you
just oh really yeah it's fun thing to do
it works well you know take a little
hole start stacking rocks around it make
it make sure it's opening and it
actually works you know um so that's not
as hard as you might think
um for me where I was I I kind of came
up with it as I was there with my
A-frame you know I I hadn't built an
A-frame shelter like that before and so
when I built it and then I had put a
bunch of tin cans in the ground so that
air would get the fire so it was fed by
air which helps create a draft um but
but I realized in an A-frame it really
doesn't the smoke doesn't go out very
well even if you leave a hole at the top
it like collects and Billows back down
so then I uh cut some of my tarp and
made this and cut a hole in the in the
A-frame and then I made like a hood vent
that I could pull down and catch the
smoke with and so while the fire was
going it would just bow out the hood
vent and then when it was done burning
and it was just hot cold so I could
close it seal it up and keep the heat in
so it actually worked pretty well so
start with something that kind of works
and then keep improving yeah exactly I
was wondering I mean the the the log cap
mhm it feels like that's a thing that
takes a huge amount of work before work
the difference between a log cabin and a
warm log cabin is like an immense amount
of work and all the chinking and all the
door ceiling and you know the chimney
has to be anyway so otherwise it's just
going to be the same ambient temperature
as outside so uh I don't think alone's
the proper context for a log cabin I
think like a log cabin's great in as a
hunting cabin as you know like you're
have something for years but in a 3 six
month scenario I don't know that it's
worth the calorie expenditure and it is
a lot of calories but that's an
interesting sort of metaphor of just
like get something that works you see a
lot a lot of this with companies like
successful companies they you know get a
prototype get a system that's working
and improve fast in response to the
conditions to the environment yeah
because it's constantly changing yeah
and you end up being a lot better if
you're able to learn how to respond
quickly uh versus like having a big plan
that takes a huge amount of time to to
accomplish that's right and forcing that
through the pipeline whether or not it
fits yeah can you just speak to like the
place you were the the Canadian Arctic
it looked cold yeah we were right near
the Arctic Circle I don't know it was
like 60 kilometers south of the Arctic
Circle so uh it was it's a really cool
area really remote thousands of little
Lakes you know when you fly over you're
just like man it's incredible there must
be so many of those lakes that people
haven't been to you know it really was a
neat area really remote and for the
show's purpose I think it was perfect
because it did have enough game and
enough different Avenues forward that I
think it really did reward activity so I
think uh but it's a special place it was
uh Den there's the tribe that lived
there the den people which interestingly
enough here's a side note when I was in
Siberia I floated down this river called
the Pud Tusa and you get to this Village
called sulami and there's these KET
people they're called and there's only
600 of them left but in this is in the
middle of Siberia not in like the
Pacific coast but their language is
related to The Den people and so somehow
you know that connection was there
thousands of years ago super interesting
but yeah so language travels somehow
right and the remnant stayed back there
it's very interesting that Think Through
History yeah with within language it
contains a history of a peoples and it's
interesting how that evolves over time
and how Wars tell the story like
language tells the story of conflict and
conflict shaped language and we get we
get the result of that right so
fascinating and the barriers that
language creates is also the thing that
leads to Wars and misunderstandings and
all this kind of stuff it's a
fascinating tension uh but it got cold
there right it got real cold yeah I mean
I think I don't know what that I didn't
have a thermometer but I imagine it
probably got
to30 at the most you know like it might
have gotten it would have definitely
gotten colder had we stayed longer but
uh yeah I to be honest I I was I never
felt cold out there I was pretty I had
that one pretty dialed in and once you
have calories you can stay warm you can
stay active you can you know you got to
dress warm you know you don't never let
there's a good one if you're in the cold
never let yourself get too cold because
what happens is you'll stop feeling
what's cold and then frostbite and then
issues and then it's really hard to warm
back up so every I it was so annoying
I'd be out going to ice fish or
something and then I would just notice
that my feet are cold and you're just
like ah dang it I just turn around go
back start a fire dry my boots out make
sure my feet are warm and then go again
I wouldn't ignore that you know also you
want to be able to feel the cold yeah
you want to make sure you're still
feeling things and that you're not
toughen through it because you can't
really tough through the cold it'll just
get you so what's your relationship with
the cold um psychologically
physically uh it's interesting oh I
actually there's a some part of it that
really makes you feel alive you know I'm
imagine you know sometime in Austin here
you come go out and it's hot and sweaty
and you're like you get that kind of
kind of saps you there's something about
that brisk cold that hits your face that
you're like wakes you up makes you feel
really alive engaged you know it feels
like the margins of air are smaller so
you're alert and engaged a little more
there is something that's a little bit
lifegiving just because you feel on an
edge you're walk you're on this Edge but
you have to be alert because even you
know some of the natives I lived with
the lady had face issues because she let
her head get cold when they're on a
snowmobile hat was up too high you know
that little mistake and then it just
freezes this part of your forehead and
then the nerves go and then you got
issues one just h wasn't high enough so
you got kind of got to be dialed in on
stuff well there's a psychological
element to just I mean it's
unpleasant if I were to think of what
kind of unpleasant would I
Choose You Know fasting for a long
periods of time going without food in a
warm environment is way more pleasant
than uh being fed in a c yeah exactly
like if you were to choose I choose the
opposite oh yeah okay well there you go
I wonder if
that's I if you're born with that or if
that's developed maybe your time in
Siberia like you or or do you gravitate
towards I I wonder what that is cuz I
really don't like survival in the cold I
think a little bit of it is learned you
like almost learned not you learn not to
fear it you learn to kind of appreciate
it and a big part of that is I mean to
be honest it's like dressing warm being
in good it's not that you know there's
no secrets to that it's you just can't
beat the cult so you just need to dress
warm the na you know all that fur all
that stuff and then all of a sudden you
have your little Refuge have a nice warm
fire gun and your teepee you know and
then you I bet you you could learn to
appreciate it yeah I think some of it is
just opening yourself up to the
possibility that there's something
enjoyable about it like here I I run in
Austin all the time and like 100 degree
heat uhuh and I go out there with a
smile on my face and like and learn to
enjoy it oh yeah and so you're just like
I look kind of like you doing the cold
just I don't think I enjoy the heat but
you just allow yourself to enjoy yeah
yeah yeah I I do feel that way I mean I
I don't mind the heat that much but I I
think you could get to the place where
you appreciated the cold it's probably
just a lack of it's kind of scary when
you haven't done it and you don't know
what you're doing and you go out and you
feel cold it's like not fun but I bet
you could you'd enjoy it you'll have to
come out some sometimes
100% I mean you're right it does make
you feel alive that it like maybe that's
the thing that I struggle with is the
time passes slower cuz it does make you
feel alive you get to feel time but then
the flip side of that is you get to feel
every moment and you get to feel alive
in every moment so that it's it's both
scary when you're in experienced and and
beautiful when you are experienced MH
were there times when you got hungry I
got got shot a rabbit on day one and I
snared a couple rabbits on day two and
then more and more as the time went so I
actually did pretty well on the food
front uh the other thing is when you
have all those berries around and stuff
you do have an ability to like fill your
stomach and so you don't really notice
if you're getting thinner or if you're
losing weight um so I can say on alone I
was not that hungry I've definitely been
really hungry in Russia there were times
when when I lost a lot of weight Ian I
lost a lot more weight in Siberia than I
did on Al times so okay we'll have to
talk about it so you uh caught a fish
you caught a couple I think I caught
like 13 or so they didn't show a lot of
them you caught 13 fish 13 of those big
fish to well I caught a couple that were
small this is like a meme of this yeah
it was a you're a perfect example of a
person who was thriving surviving I was
thought you know this this is in the in
hindsight again when I was out there I
never let myself think you might win and
I just was going to be out there as long
as I could and tried to remain
pessimistic about no but then the uh but
there I remember a thought that I was
like I wonder if they're going to be
able to make this look hard you know I
did have that thought at one point and
CU it went pretty well and I was
definitely was it was hard
psychologically because I didn't know
when it was going to end like I thought
this could go you know like I said 6
months could go go eight months a year
and then you start to C you know a two
and a three-year-old and you start to
weigh in the is it worth it if it goes a
year and it's not worth it if it goes
eight months and I still lose so I feel
like I had this pressure and it was
psychologically difficult for that
reason
physically I wasn't too bad this is uh
off mic we're talking about Gordon Ryan
competing in in Jiu-Jitsu and maybe
that's the challenge he also has to face
is to make things look
hard cuz there's he's so dominant in the
sport
that in terms of the drama and the
entertainment of the of the sport in
this case of survival it has to be
difficult you know and I'll add that for
sure though that it's it's the woods
it's nature you never know how it's
going to go you know what I mean it's
like every time you're out there it's a
different scenario so yeah whatever
Hallelujah it went well so you uh you
won after 77 days
how long do you think you could have
lasted when I left I weighed what I do
right now so I just weighed my normal
weight I had you know a couple hundred
pounds of moose I had at least you know
100 pounds of fish I had you know a pile
of rabbits yeah a wolverine you know I
had all this stuff and I know I hadn't
gotten cold yet I I just thought but in
my head I thought if I get today 130 or
even if someone else has big game I had
a pretty good idea they might quit
because it would be long cold dark days
and how miserable is that just it's so
boring it's freezing and and so I
thought the only time I thought I could
think about winning is one I got to day
130 or 40 and I definitely had that um
with what I had uh now maybe I would
have got you know I probably would have
gotten more I had caught a that big 20
something pound Pike on the last day I
was there maybe catch some more of those
you know I don't you know and I don't
know like I don't know how many calories
I had stored but I had a lot and so how
long would that have lasted me assuming
I didn't get anything else it definitely
would have I definitely would have
reached my goal of 130 or 40 days and
then after that I thought we were just
going to push into the who you know then
it's just to see how much who has what
reserves and we'll go as far as we can
and that would get me through January
into February and I just thought man
that's going to be miserable for people
and you were like I can last through and
I knew do it yeah uh what what aspect of
that is miserable the hardest thing for
me would have been the boredom um
because it's hard to it's hard to stay
busy when it's all dark out when the ice
is you know three four foot thick you
can't fish and
um I just think I think it would have
just been really boring it would had to
been a real zen master to push through
it but because I had experienced it to
some degree I knew I could and then I
think things that might you know you
start thinking about family and this and
that and those situations and I just
knew that those because I'd gone to all
these trips to Russia for a year at a
time the time context was a little
broader for me than I think for some
people because I I knew I could be gone
for a year and come back catch up with
my loved ones you know bring what I got
back whether that be psychological
whatever it is and we'd all enrich each
other and and once it's in hindsight
that year would have been like that
talking about it so I had that
perspective and it so I knew I wasn't
going to tap for any other reason other
than running out of food someday so that
was my stressor and then see you're able
to given the boredom given the
loneliness kind of zoom
out and accept the passing of time just
let it pass you know for me I'm an
fairly act I like to be active and so I
would try to think of creative ways to
keep my brain busy you know we saw the
like dumb rabbit for skit what but then
I did a whole bunch of like elaborate
Normandy reinvasion you knowas
reenactments and stuff like there was
like a there was a every day I would
think of I got to think of something to
make me laugh you know and then do some
stupid skit and then that would be that
would fill a couple hours of my time and
then I'd spend an hour two couple few
hours fishing and then you spend few
hours you know whatever you're doing
would you do that without a camera yeah
oh no the the the skits funny question
that's a good question I don't know I
actually don't know that uh I will say
that was the one of the advantages of
being on the show versus uh in Siberia
so no because I didn't in Siberia just
do skits by myself but I didn't film it
and so it was it was quite nice to have
this camera that made you feel like you
weren't quite as alone as if you were
just in the Woods by yourself and I
think it for me I was able to it's a it
was a pain it was part of the cause of
me missing that moose you know there's
issues with it but I just chose to look
at it as like this is an awesome
opportunity to share with people a part
of me that most people don't get to see
you know so that was I just chose to
look at it that way and it was an
advantage because you could do stuff
like that I think there's actual power
to doing this kind of documenting like
talking to a camera or an audio recorder
like that that's an actual tool in
survival I I had a little bit of an
experience being out alone in the jungle
and just being able to talk to a thing
mhm is much less lonely it is it really
is it's a that's can be a powerful tool
just sharing your experience I had the I
definitely had the thought so going back
to your earlier comment but I definitely
had the thought if I knew I was the last
person on Earth I wouldn't even bother
like I wouldn't do that like I would
just probably not I just give up I'm
sure because even if I had a bunch of
food and this and that but because I
knew knew you're you know you're a part
you're sharing it gives you a lot of
strength to go through and and having
that camera just as makes it that much
more Vivid because you know you're not
just going to be sharing a vague memory
but an actual experience I think if
you're the last person on Earth you
would actually convince yourself first
of all you don't know for sure last
there's always going to be hope dies
last yeah hope hope really do does die
you really don't know you really you
really hope to find I mean if you're
like an apocal happens MH MH I think
your whole life will become about
finding the other person it would be and
there's a CH I mean I I'm I guess I'm
saying if you knew you were for some
reason knew you were the last I wonder
if you would I wonder if you that that
was a thought I had if I knew I was the
last person like cuz I here I was having
a good time having fun fishing plenty of
food but like if I knew I was the last
person on Earth I don't know that I
would even bother but now if that was
for real would I bother that's the
question no no I think if you knew if
somebody some some way you knew for sure
I think your mind will start doubting it
that whoever told you you're the last
person
whatever was lying right right the power
of Hope might be
more than I accounted for in that
situation also uh you might if you are
indeed the last person you might want to
be documenting it for once you die you
know an alien species come comes about
CU whatever happened on Earth is a
pretty special thing and if you're the
last one you might be like the last
person to tell the story of what
happened and so that's going to be a way
to convince yourself that this is
important and so the days will go by
like this but it would be
lonely boy would that be lonely it would
be wow maybe delving into the dredges
the depths of yeah I mean something
there is going to be existential dread
mhm but also I don't know I think hope
will burn bright you'll be looking for
other humans that's you know one of the
reasons I was look forward to talking to
you things I appreciate about you is you
you're always not out of naivity but
you're always choose to look at the
positive you know what I mean and I and
I think that's a a powerful mindset to
have I appreciate it yeah that'd be a
pretty cool survival situation though if
you're the last person on
Earth if you could share
it you could share yeah um like I said
many people consider you the most
successful competitor on alone the other
successful one is Roland Welker Rock
House guy oh yeah this is just a fun
ridiculous question but head-to head who
do you think survives
longer um if you want to get me the
competitive side of it I would just say
I I'm pretty dang sure I had more pounds
of
food but and I didn't have the advantage
of knowing when it would end which I
think would have been a greaty
psychological oh yeah would have made it
really easy once I got the Moose I could
have shot the moose and just not
stressed that would have been like a and
so that was a big difference between the
seasons that I felt
like I mean I felt like the psychology
of season 7 they kind of messed up by
doing a 100 day cap because I for my own
experience that was the hardest part but
Roland's a he's a beast so for people
who don't know they put a 100 day cap on
so it's whoever can survive 100 days uh
For That season it's interesting to hear
that for you the uncertainty not knowing
when it ends is that was for sure it
it's the hardest that's true cuz like
you wake up every day I didn't know how
to ration my food I didn't know if if I
was going to lose after 6 months and
then it was all going to be for not I
didn't know if it you know I just
there's so many unknowns you don't know
like like I said if I shot a moose and
it was 100 days done if I shot a moose
and you don't know it's like crap I
could still lose to somebody else but
it's going to be way in the future
so anyway that for me was definitely the
the hard part and when you found out
that you won and your wife was there it
was funny because you're really happy
there's great sort of moment of you uh
reuniting but also there's a State of
Shock of
like you look you look like you were
ready to go much longer that was the
most genuine shock I could have I hadn't
even like entertained a thought yet I
didn't even think it was you'd hear the
helicopters
and I just assumed there was other
people out there I just hadn't I thought
like you know and for one the previous
person that had gone the longest had
gone 89 days so I just knew whoever else
was out here with me somebody's got that
in their crosshairs they're going to get
to 90 and they're not going to quit at
90 they're going to go to 100 you know I
just figured we can't start thinking
about the end until a couple months from
when it ended so I was just shocked I
was and and they tricked me pretty good
they know how to make you think you're
not you know that they're you're not so
they want you to do the surprise yeah
they want it to be a surprise you really
weren't I mean you have to do that I
guess for survival don't be counting the
days no I think that would be then you
know you see that and some of the people
do that for myself that would be bad
psychology because then you're just
always disappointing yourself you have
to be settled with the fact that this is
going to go a long time and suck once
you come to peace with that maybe you'll
be pleasantly surprised but you're not
going to be constantly disappointed so
what was your diet like like what was
your eating habits like during that time
um like how many meals a day this is
like
what oh man I was trying to eat the
thing I was like not trying to the more
the Moose is hanging out there the more
the critters every Critter in the forest
is trying to Peck at it or mice trying
to eat it and stuff so so one of the
ways you can protect the food is by
eating it so I was having three good
meals a day and then I'd like cook up
some meat and go to sleep and then uh
wake up in the middle of night because
they're long nights and like have some
meat at night eat a bunch at night and
then so I usually have a fish fish stew
for lunch and then mousse for breakfast
and dinner and then have some for a
nighttime snack cuz the nights were long
so you'd be in bed like 14 hours and
wake up and eat and Dink around and go
back to sleep is it okay that I was
pretty low carb situation yeah I
actually felt really good I tried to I
tried to I think I would have felt
better if I would have had a higher
percentage of fat because you know it's
still over more protein than if you're
on a keto diet you want a lot of fat and
so I did I did try to mix in like
Nature's carbs different like reindeer
Lykan and things like that
but honestly I felt pretty good on that
diet we'll see how did you uh what's the
secret to like protecting food what are
the different ways to prot yeah a lot of
times you know in a typical situation in
the woods hunting you'll raise it up in
a tree in a bag put it in like a game
bag so the birds can't Peck at it and
hang it in a tree so it cools you got to
make sure first to cool it because it'll
spoil so you cool it by whatever means
necessary hanging it in a cool place
letting the air blow around it um and
then you'll notice that every Forest
freeloader in the woods is going to come
and try to steal your food and and it
was just fun I mean it was it was crazy
to watch you know like it's all the Jay
all the camp Jays pecking at it or
everything I did you know was was uh
there was something that could get to it
if put on the ground the mice get on it
and they poop on it and they kind of
mess it up so I uh ultimately it kind of
just dawned on me shoot I'm going to
have to build one of those aeni like
food caches so I did and I put it up
there and I thought I kind of solved my
problem to to be honest the venki then
so they would have taken a page out of
like they would have mixed me and
Rolland solution they build a tall stilt
shelter and then put a box on the top
that's enclosed and then the Bears can't
get to it the mice can't poop on it the
Birds The Wolverine you know it's safe
and I never finished it I in in
hindsight I don't actually know why I
think I was just the way it timed like I
didn't think something was going to get
up there then it did and then I you know
you're like counting calories and stuff
I should have in hindsight just boxed it
in right away but to get ready for the
long for the Long Haul yeah yeah yeah is
a rabbit starvation a real thing yeah so
you can't just live off protein and
rabbits are almost protein I'd kill a
rabbit eat the inerts and the brain and
the eyes and then everything else is
just protein and so uh it takes more
calories to you know process that
protein than you're getting from it
without the fat so you actually lose I
lost I had you know a lot of rabbits in
the first 20 days I had 28 rabbits or
something but I was losing weight at
exactly the same speed as everybody else
that didn't have anything so that's
interesting yeah and i' never tried that
before so I was wondering if I'm
catching a ton of rabbits I wonder if I
can last what 6 months on rabbits but no
you just starve as fast as everybody
else and decid to kind of learn that on
the Fly and adjust I wonder what to make
of that like so you need fat to survive
like fundamental yeah that's the yeah
and you'll notice when the Wolverine
came or when animals came they would eat
the skin off of the fish they would eat
the eyes you know they' steal the Moose
fat they leave all the meat yeah like
behind the eyes is a bunch of fat so
yeah you can kind of observe nature and
see what they're eating and know where
the gold is what do you like eating when
you're like when you can eat whatever
you want what do you feel best eating
what do I feel best I just try to eat
clean I
think I'm not like super stricter on
anything but I think when I eat less
carbs I feel better meat and vegetables
I like we eat a lot of you know eat a
lot of meat so basically everything you
ate on a alone plus some veggies plus
veggies throw in some buck I like
Buck let's step to the uh the early days
of
Jordan so uh your uh Instagram handle is
hobo jordo so early on in your life you
uh hobo around the US on freight trains
what's the story behind that my brother
when he was 17 or so he just decided to
go hitchhiking and he hitchhiked down to
Reno from Idaho where we were and uh
ended up loving traveling but hated
being dependent on other people so he
ended up jumping on a freight train and
and just did it he honestly he pretty
much got on a train and traveled the
country for the next eight years on
trains lived in the streets and
everywhere but uh you know he was sober
so it gives you a different experience
than a lot but at one point when I was I
guess yeah 18 he invited me to come
along with him he'd probably been doing
it five or so four or five years years
and uh or more and uh I said sure So I
quit my job and went out with them um
hobo jordo's a bit of an over I feel
self-conscious about that because I rode
AC I rode trains across the country up
and down the coast back you know spent
the better part of the Year running
around riding trains and all the staying
in places related to that but all the
people you know the real hobos those
guys are out there doing it for years on
end but it was such a for me what it
felt like was a it felt like a bit of a
right of passage experience which is
kind of missing I think in Modern Life
so I did this thing that was a huge
unknown Ben kind of was there with me my
brother for most of it we traveled
around got pushed my boundaries and
every which way you know froze at night
and did all the stuff and then and then
at the end I actually wanted to go back
and go back home and so I went on my own
and went from Minneapolis back you know
up to Spokan on my own which was a f my
first stint of time by myself for like a
week which was interesting alone with
your own Thoughts with your own thoughts
as my first time in my life had been
like that you know and so it was it was
powerful at the time you know what it
did too is it gave me a whole different
view of life cuz I had gotten a job when
I was 13 and then 14 15 16 17 and then I
was just in the normal run of things
kind of and then that just threw a whole
different path into my life and then I
realized some of the things
while I was traveling that I wouldn't
experience again until I was living with
Natives and such and that was you know
you wake up you don't have a schedule
you literally just have needs and you
just somehow have to meet your needs and
so uh it's it's a there's a really uh
sense of Freedom you get that is hard to
replicate elsewhere and so uh that was
eye opening to me and I think once I did
that I went back so I went back to my
old job at the salad dressing plant and
there's this old crossed guy and he oh
hobo jordo is back and that's kind of
where I got it but but that freedom
always was very important to me I think
from that time on what did you learn
about the United States about the people
along the way cuz I took a road trip
across the US also and there was a
there's a romantic element there too of
like of the
freedom of
the well maybe for me not knowing what
the hell I'm going to do with my life
but also excited by all the
possibilities and and then you meet a
lot of different people a lot of
different kinds of stories and also like
a lot of people that support you for
traveling cuz I go there's a lot of
people kind of dream of experiencing
that freedom at least the people I've
met and they usually don't they usually
don't go out outside their little town
they they have a thing and they they
have a family usually and they they
don't explore they don't take the leap
and you can do that when you're young I
guess you could do that any moment just
say fuck it and leap into the the abyss
of being on the road but anyway what did
you learn about this country about the
people in this country you're in an
interesting context when you're on
trains because the trains always end up
in the crappiest part of town you know
and they and you're always outside
interacting well the interesting things
we know every once in a while the
hitchhike to get from one place to
another one interesting thing is you
notice you always get picked up by the
you know the poor people or you know
they're the people that empathize with
you stop pick you up you go to whatever
ghetto I me you end up in and people are
really oh what are you guys doing you
real friendly and and and relatable it
kind of you know broaden your my
horizons for sure from being just Idaho
kid and then meeting all these different
people and and just seeing the goodness
in people and this and that it's also
very you know a lot of drugs and a lot
of people with mental issues that
you're friends with dealing with you
know all that kind of stuff so any
memorable characters well there's a few
for sure I mean a lot of them I still
know that are still around but the uh
Rocco was one guy we traveled he's
become like a brother but he's um he was
he traveled with my my brother for years
cuz they were the two sober guys kind of
he rather than traveling cuz he was
hooked on stuff did it to escape all
that and so he was kind of sober and
straight edge and he always he a 5 seven
Italian guy that was always getting in
fights and he has his own sense of uh
ethics that I think is really
interesting because he's super honest
but but he expects it of others and so
it's funny in the modern context the
thing that pops in my head is when he
got a car for the first time which
wasn't that long you know he in his 30s
or something uh and he registered it
which he was mad about that he had to
register but then the next year they
told him he had to register again and
he's like what did you lose my
registration went down there to the DMV
chewed him out that he had to
re-register because he already
registered where's the paperwork and but
just kind of views the world from a
different lens I thought but on
everything he's a character now he just
lives by digging up bottles and finding
Treasures in the but he uh notices the
injustices in the world he notices in a
very and speaks up and he's always like
why doesn't everybody else speak up
about their car
registration and and then there was like
you know dvo comes to mind because he
was such a unique character as far as
just for one he would have live to be
120 cuz the amount of chemicals and
everything else he put into his body and
still hey man you know one of those guys
you could always get a dime you know
always spare dime spare dime and you bum
change and uh I
see him sometimes and I'd be gone and
then go to New York to visit my sister
or something and i' sure enough there's
dvo on the street what do you know and
uh you go visit him in the hospital
because he got bit by 20 you know 27
hobo spider bites you know he's just
always rough but uh charismatic vital
like the Vitality of life was in him but
it was just so permeated with drugs and
alcohol too it's kind I wonder what cuz
I've met people like that they're like
they're just yeah Joy perme is the whole
way of being and they're like they've
been through some shit they have scars
they' got they rough but they always got
a big smile there's a guy I met in the
jungle named Pico he lost the leg and he
uh drives a boat and he just always has
a big smile even given that like the
hardship he has to get everything
requires a huge amount of work but he's
just big smile and there's stories in
those eyes there something about yeah
enduring difficulty that makes you able
to appreciate life and look at it and
smile any advice if I were to take a
road trip again or if somebody else is
thinking of hopping out a freight
train way easier now cuz you have a map
on your phone you feel you're going
you're kind of cheating now it's not
about the Destin cuz the map is about
the destination right uh but here is
like you don't give TR where are you
going you're going anywhere
exactly I say do it like go out and do
things especially when you're
young experiences and stuff help create
the person you will be in the future
putting doing things that you think like
I don't want to do that I'm a little
scared of that I mean that's what you
got to do you just get out of your
comfort zone and you will grow as a
person and you'll go through a lot of
wild experiences along the
way say yes to life and that way CS of
Life yeah I love the boredom of it
freight train riding is very
boring and like you'll wait for hours
for a train that never comes and then
you'll go to the store and come back and
it'll be gone you're like No And but I
remember we went to jail we got out and
then uh how'd you end up in jail oh you
know it was thanks trespassing on a
train but we were we were riding a train
and my brother woke up and he had a dead
H land on his head and hit the train and
fell on him and we like woke up and we
were laughing that's got to be some kind
of bad
Omen and then we were like looking out
of the train and we saw a train worker
look and saw us and he went like oh we
know that's a bad omen anyway sure
enough the Police Stopped the train
somebody had seen us on it and they
searched it got us and threw us in jail
it was not a big deal we were in jail a
couple days and then they uh uh but when
we got out of course they put us we were
in some Podunk town in Indiana and we
didn't know where to catch out of there
and so we were at some Factory and we
just ban in Factory we waited there for
like four days no train that was going
slow enough that we could catch and then
we found this big old roll of aluminum
foil and out I got to apologize to this
woman cuz we were so bored just sitting
there we built these like hats you know
like horns coming out every which way
and loops and just sitting there and
then it was at night and some minivan
pulled up to this train that was going
by too
like Circle their car entertaining
yourself with whatever you can poor lady
was terrified see hitchhiking was tough
I didn't like hitchhiking just cuz
you're depending on the other people and
it is not I don't know why you just want
to be independent but you do really cool
people a lot of times there's really
nice people that pick you up and and
that's cool but I just personally
actually didn't do it a lot um and I
wasn't you know if you're on the streets
for 10 years you'll end up doing it a
lot more because you need to get from
point A to point B but we just tried to
avoid it as much as we could because
didn't appeal to us as much well that
one downside of hitchhiking is people
talk a lot oh they do so it's it's both
the pro and the con yeah yeah cuz
they'll you know sometimes you just want
to be sort of alone with your thoughts
or it's there is a kind of lack of
freedom and having to listen to a person
that's giving you a right it's so true
and then you don't know how to react to
I mean I was young I remember I got
picked up I was probably 19 or something
and then I was just like hey how's it
going she's like f my husband just died
and then yeah then then there all and I
got diagnosed with cancer and this and
that but and pretty bitter and all that
and understandably so but you're just
like I have no idea to respond here so
then you're young and you had to be nice
and and I remember that ride being
interesting cuz I didn't really know how
to respond and she was angry and going
through some stuff and and dumping it
out she didn't have anyone else to dump
it out on I was like wow I'm going to
take the freight turn next time so how
did you end up in
Siberia um uh I'll try to keep it a
little bit short on that
how but I but the long story short was I
had a brother that's adopted and when he
grew up he wanted to find his biological
mom and just tell her thanks and and uh
so he did and when he was he was
probably 20 or something he found his
biological mom told her things turns out
he had a brother that was going to go
over to Russia and uh help build this
orphanage and that brother was about my
age I and I remember at that time I I
read this verse that said if you're in
the darkness and see no light just
continue following me basically I was
like okay I'm I'm going to take that to
the bank even though I don't know if
it's true or not and then the only
glimpse of like light I got in all that
was when I heard about that orphanage to
go build that
orphanage and and I prayed about it and
I felt and I and I can't explain like it
brought me to tears I felt so strongly
that I should go and so I was like well
that's a clear call I'm just going to do
it yes I just bought a ticket got a Visa
for a year and then I went and helped
build an orphanage and we got that built
and I wanted but he was an American and
I wanted to live with Russians to learn
a language and so he sent me to a
neighboring Village to live with a
couple Russian families that needed a
hand and somebody to watch their kids
and cut their hay and milk the cow and
all that so uh I found myself in that
little Russian village
just getting to know these two guys and
their families it was a it was pretty
fascinating and I of course I didn't
know the language yet and they were two
awesome dudes both of them had been in
prison and met each other in prison and
like were really close cuz they had like
found God in prison together and and
stayed to get you got out and uh stayed
connected and uh so I had bounce backs
between those two families and they used
to always tell me about their third
buddy they had been in prison with who
was a native fur trapper now in the
north and so they you got to go meet our
buddy up north and uh one day that guy
came through to sell furs in the city
and he like invited me to come live with
him and my Visa was about to expire but
I was like when I come back I'll come
and so I uh went back home earned some
more money did some construction or
whatever then went back and uh headed
north to hang out with Ura and F trap
and and that started a whole new you
know opened a whole new world that I
didn't know about before we talk about
your own fur trapping let's actually
rewind and mhm would you describe that
moment when you were in the darkness as
a crisis of Faith yeah yeah for sure it
was like
a was darkness and that I I I didn't
know how to
parse you know what is this thing that's
my faith and and what and what is what's
the wheat and what's the chaff and how
do I get through it and
um I basically just clung to keeping it
really simple and and oddly enough in my
Christian path it that God was actually
defined in a certain God is love and I
was just like that's the only thing I'm
going to cling to you know and I'm going
to try to express that in my life in
whichever way I can and and just trust
that if I do that if I act like I you
know we've I've heard this lately but if
you just act like you
believe over time that world kind of
opens to you when I said I would go to
Russia I I pray and I was like Lord I
don't see you I don't know but I got
this what I felt like was a clear call I
have only one request and that is that
you would give me the faith to match my
action you know I'm choosing to believe
like I could choose not to because you
know whatever but uh I'm going to choose
to act and I just ask to have faith
someday and then um and then and
honestly the whole first year I went
through that was a very crazy time for
me learning the language being isolated
being misunderstood and then but then
trying to approach all that with a
loving open heart and then I came back
and I realized that that prayer had kind
of been answered that wasn't the end of
my journey but it was I was like whoa
that was like my
deepest request that I could come up
with and somehow that had been answered
so through that year you were just like
first of all you couldn't speak the
language that's really tough that's
really tough because it's unlike on aone
where because not only can you not speak
and you feel isolated but you're also
misunderstood all the time so you seem
like an idiot and and all that and so
that was tough I felt very uh alone at
that time at certain times in that
Journey but you were sort of radiating
like you said Leed would love so you
radiating this kind of camaraderie
compassion I was really intentional
about trying to about that that was I
don't know why I'm here I just know that
I you know that that's my call is to
love one another and so I just try to
like and then it meant digging people's
Wells it might meant just going and
visiting that old laid babush scup at
the house it's lonely or go and that was
really cool I got to talk to some
fascinating ladies and stuff and then
what go to that Village help those
families I'm going to be like cut the
hay be the most the hardest worker I can
be because that's my goal here I didn't
have any other agenda or anything except
to try to live a life of love and I
couldn't Define it beyond that what was
it like learning the Russian language uh
it was super interesting I think uh I I
had the thought while I was learning it
one that it was way too hard like if I
would have just learned Spanish or
German I would be so much farther but
here I am a year in and I'm like how do
you say I want cheese
properly and then but at the same time
it was really cool to learn a language
that uh that I thought in a lot of ways
was richer than English it was it's a
very rich language I remember there was
a uh comedy act in Russian but he was
saying you know one word you can't have
in English is Nila meaning like I didn't
drink enough to get drunk to but you
know that type thing and but it's just a
you can make up these words using
different pref you know prefixes and
suffixes and like blend them in a way
that is quite unique and interesting and
honestly would be really good for poetry
because it also doesn't have sentence
structure in the same way English does
the words can be jumbled in a way and
somehow in the process of jumbling some
humor some some uh musicality comes out
it's interesting like you can be witty
in Russian much easier than you can in
English like witty and funny and and
also with poetry you can say profound
things by messing with words and the
Order of Words which is hilarious
because uh you had a great conversation
with Joe Rogan and on that program you
talked about you know how to say I I
love you in russan is hilarious and it
was for me the first time I don't know
why you were a great person to
articulate the flexibility and the power
of the Russian language that's really
cuz you were saying like
yeah you could say every single order
every single com combination of ordering
of those words is
has the same
meaning but slightly different you could
like it would change the meaning if you
took yah out and just said Lu TI yeah
there's like a different emphasis or
maybe or yah TI or something you know
like there all these different or just
TI also right exactly so it is Rich and
that and it was interesting coming from
an English context and getting a glimpse
of that and then wondering about all
those you know Russian authors that we
all appreciate that oh we actually
aren't getting the full the full deal
here oh yeah definitely I've recently
become a fan actually of uh Lissa vonsky
and Richard prier they're these world
famous translators of Russian literature
tolto DKI Czech of Pushkin bakov uh
Pastak they've helped me understand just
how much of an art form translation
really is some authors do that art more
translatable than others like theki is
more translatable but then you can still
spend a week on one sentence oh yeah
like just how do I exactly capture this
very important sentence uh but I think
what's more powerful is not uh like
literature but conversation which is one
of the reasons I've been I've been
carrying and feeling the responsibility
of having conversations with Russian
speakers um because I can still see the
music of it I can still see the wit of
it and in conversation comes out like
really interesting kinds of wisdom you
you like you when I listen to like world
leaders that speak Russian speak and I
see the
translation and it loses it loses the
irony the like in between the words if
you translate them literally you you
lose the reference in there to the
history of the peoples yeah for sure and
I definitely seen that on like you know
when if you listen to I think it
probably was a Putin speech or something
and you just see that oh wow something
major is being Lost in Translation you
can actually see it happen I wouldn't be
surprised if that wasn't the case with
the you know that whole greatest tragedy
is the fall of the Soviet Union that I
hear him being quoted as saying all the
time I bet you there's something in
there that's being Lost in Translation
that is interesting I think the thing I
see the most Lost in Translation is the
humor mhm I'll just say that that was
the hard that was the tangibly the
hardest part about learning the language
is that humor comes last and you have to
like wait you have to wait that whole
year you know or however long it takes
you to learn the language to be able to
start getting the humor you know some of
it comes through but you miss so much
nuance and it and and that was really
difficult in interaction with people to
like just be the guys you know when when
there's humor going on and you're
totally oblivious to it yeah everybody's
laughing and you're like
yeah trying to
laugh along what did they make of
you to be honest this person that came
from no descended upon
us all full of love if I had a nickel
for every time I heard like oh Americans
suck but you're a good American you're
like the only good American I've ever
met but then of course they never met
yeah exactly you're the only one but uh
you know I think because I was just I
tried to work hard tried to be more
useful than I was a drain all that they
all I think I think it was pretty
appreciated me out there I've definitely
heard that a lot and so that's nice can
you talk about their way of
life so like when when you're doing fur
trapping so fur trapping was an
interesting uh experience you you
basically what you do in uh October or
something you'll go out to your a
hunting cabin and you there you'll have
like three hunting cabins you go stock
them with noodles or whatever it is and
then for the next couple months or
however long you'll go from one cabin
usually the guys are just out there
doing this on their own so they'll go
out and they'll uh go from one cabin and
each cabin will have five or six trap
lines going out of it every day it'll
take a half a day to walk to the end of
your trap Line open all the traps and a
half a day to get back and they'll do
that they'll spend a week at a cabin
open up all the traps and then it'll
take a day to hike over to the other
cabin go to that one open up all those
traps and then there and then like 3
weeks later or so they'll end up back at
the first cabin and then check all the
traps and so it's kind of that Rhythm
and they'll do that for uh you know a
couple few months during the winter and
you're trapping Sable they're called
Sable like Pine Martin is what we would
have the equivalent of over here and uh
what is it what it's like a weasel a
furry little weasel and they make coats
out of it and so when I went he showed
me how to open a trap show me the ropes
gave me a topographical map there's one
cabin there's the other and we Ed ways
for like five weeks we did run into each
other once in the middle there uh at a
cabin but other than that you you're
just off by yourself hoping to shoot a
grouse or something to add to your
noodles and make your meal better catch
a fish and then working really hard
trying not to get lost and stuff how do
you get from one trapping location to
the next that's funny CU like it was
both basically by landmarks and feel
like I didn't have compass and things
like that so by feel
okay I got myself into trouble once and
I the first time I went to one cabin I
got myself into trouble first time I
went to the other cabin I nailed it and
so I had two different experiences on my
first trip but the the one that I nailed
it I remember I had to go and it's like
a Day hike I was like well I know the
cabin's South and so if I just walk
south you know the left the sun should
be on the left in the morning and right
in front of me in the middle of the day
and by evening it should like end up at
my right and just kind of guess what
time it is and and follow along and and
it you know it takes all day and kid you
not ended up like 100 yards from the
cabin I was like whoa this is the trail
and that's the cabin like oh amazing and
then the other time I went out and uh I
heading over the mountains and I thought
you know hours had passed I probably had
gotten slightly lost and then uh I
thought I was halfway there so I thought
okay I'm going to sit down and cook some
cook some food get a drink I'm I'm
thirsty so I sat down and uh went to
start a fire and my matches had gotten
all wet because the snow had fallen on
me and soaked me and I didn't have them
wrapped in plastic I was like oh no I
can't drink water you know so I was like
well I'm just going to power through I'm
halfway there well I kept hiking and
then I realized it was getting night and
uh and then I realized I was at the
halfway point cuz I saw this rock that I
was like oh no that's the halfway point
I was like I can't do this and so I need
to go get water I ended up having to
divert down the mountain and head to the
water I ended up you know it was a whole
ordeal I had to take my skis off cuz I
was going through an old forest fire
burn so they were all really close trees
but then the snow was like this deep so
I was just trudging through and just
wishing a bear would eat me get it over
with but I finally made it down to the
water chopped the hole through the ice
was able to take a sip so you severely
dehydrated severely dehydrated and
exhausted exhausted cold like you know
you feel sort of nervous you're in over
your head and then and then I got down
to the river chopped the whole nice
drink it hiked up the river and
eventually got to the other cabin it was
probably 3: in the morning or something
he chopped a hole in the ice to drink to
get some water yeah this got to be like
the one of the worst days of your
life you know it was a bad day for sure
had
of it was a bad day and it here's what
was funny is I got to the cabin at like
3 in the morning and I should have
brushed over a lot of like the misery
that I felt and I
laid down I was about to go to sleep and
then Europe charges in from from the
other way I was like whoa dude you're
what are you doing and I was like how's
it going he's oh it sucks and he laid
down and just fell asleep I fell asleep
and I was like oh that's funny the last
few weeks that we've been apart who
knows what he went through who knows why
he was there at that time at night all
just summarized and it sucked and we
went to sleep and the next morning we
parted waves and who knows what happened
and you didn't really tell them never
knew neither of us said what happened
just like that's
interesting yeah and he probably was
through similar kinds of things who
knows yeah like what what gave you
strength in those in those hours when
you're you know going to waste High snow
all of that you're
laughing but like that's hard yeah you
know that Russian phrase
GL eyes are afraid hands do I'm sure
there a poetic way to try
right it's kind of like you know just
put one foot in front of the other you
know when you think about what you have
to do it's really intimidating and but
you just know if I just do it if I just
do it if I just keep trudging eventually
I'll get there and pretty soon you
realize you I've covered a couple
kilometers or right um and so when
you're really in it in those moments I
guess you're just you're just putting
your head down and getting through I've
had similar moments there's wisdom to
that mhm like once just take it one step
at a time one step at a time I think
that a lot honestly I tell myself that a
lot when when I'm about to do something
really hard just you know glovi dealer
one step at a time just going to get
don't like sit there and think oh that's
a long ways yeah just go and then you
look back and you covered a bunch of
ground one of the things I realized was
helpful in the jungle that was one of
the biggest realizations for
me is like it really sucks right
now but when I look back at the end of
the
day I won't really remember
exactly how much it sucked I I have a
vague notion of it sucking and I'll
remember the good thing so being
dehydrated I'll remember drinking water
and I won't really remember the hours of
feeling like shit that's absolutely true
like tot it's so funny how like just
awareness of that having been through it
and then being aware of it means next
time you face it you be like you know
what once this is over I'm going to look
back on it and it's going to be like
that and nothing and I'll actually laugh
about it and think it was it's thing
I'll remember you know I remember that
story of that miserable day going down
to the ice and I can smile about it now
and now that I know that I can be in a
miserable position and realize that
that's what the outcome will be once I'm
once it's over it's just going to be a
story if you survive though if you
survive and that can
be uh so you mentioned you've learned
about Hunger during these times like
when was like the hungriest you've
gotten to it was the first time so to
continue the story slightly I Le went
for trapping with that guy and then it
turned out all his cousins were these
native nomadic reindeer herders and
after I like earned his trust and he
liked me a lot he he took me out to his
cousins who were all these you know
Nomads living in tepes I was like this
is awesome I didn't even know people
still lived like this and they were
really open and welcoming cuz their
cousin just brought me out there you
know and vouched for me but it was
during fencing season and fencing in
Siberia for those reindeers like an
incredible thing you take an axe you go
out and you just build these 30
kilometer Loop fences with just logs
interlocking it's tons of work and all
these guys are more efficient bodies
they're better at it and I'm just like
working less efficiently and also a lot
bigger dude but we're all just on the
same rations kind of and and and I got
down that was like 155 pounds you know
getting down pretty dang skinny for my
63 frame and just working really hard
and it's in the spring in Siberia
there's no like there's not much to
forage you know in the fall you can have
pine nuts and this and that but in the
spring you're just stuck with whatever
random food you've got and so that
that's where I lost the most weight and
felt the most hungry and had a lot of
other issues you know I was new to that
type of work and so working as hard as I
could but also making mistakes chopping
myself with the ax and and getting
injured all kinds of stuff you know so
so injuries Plus very low calorie intake
low Y and exhausted I remember if you
got you were the poor son of a gun to
get stuck slicing the bread you know
like you're here cutting the bread and
somebody throws all the spoons and drops
the pot of soup there and it's like
before you can even done slicing your
slice all the meats like gone from the
bowl everybody else has grabbed the
spoon in midair and and you're like a
hoping this one little noodle is going
to give me a lot of
nourishment wow so everybody gets I mean
yeah that first come for a serve I guess
cuz it's like all the dudes out there
working on the fence so you mentioned
the axe and you gave me a present this
is a probably the most badass present
I've ever gotten uh so tell me the story
of this of this ax so the natives when I
got there I thought you know I grew up
on a farm I thought I was pretty good
with an axe but they do tons of work
with those things and um and I really
grew to love their type of Axe their
style of Axe and just an ax General
they'd always say it's the one tool you
need to survive in the wilderness and
and I agree and uh this one has certain
yeah design features that the natives uh
that was unique to the aeni to the
natives I was with one is with these
Russian heads or the Soviet heads
whatever they had they're a little wider
on top here meaning you can put the
handle through from the top like a
tomahawk and it uh that means you're not
dealing with a wedge and if it ever
loosens and you're swinging it only gets
tighter it doesn't fly off and so that's
something that's kind of cool um then
they have what's what they do that's
unique is so you can see this is the
Wolverine ax so it's got the little
Wolverine head in honor of the Wolverine
I fought on the show so you have
actually two axes this is one of the
small this is a little smaller I didn't
want to make it too small because you
need a something to actually work out
there you need something kind of serious
um but then they sharpen it from one
side so if you're right-handed you
sharpen it from the right side and that
means when you're in the woods and
living there's a lot of times where
you're whether you're making a table or
a sleigh or an ax handle or whatever
you're doing that you're holding the
wood and doing this work and it makes it
really good for that planing the other
thing it is especially in Northern woods
all the trees are like this big you know
you're never cutting down a big giant
tree and so when you swing with a single
sided axe like this sharpen from the one
side it really with your right hand
swing like this really bites into the
wood and gives you a because with that
if you can picture it that angle is
going to cause deflection MH and without
that angle on your right-handed swing it
just like bites in there like crazy and
so uh that there's other little Divine
you know the handle is made by some
Amish guys in Canada this is all Hand
Forged by uh oh it's Hand Forged yeah I
mean yeah it looks and so it's a pretty
sweet little yeah it's amazing there's
other things you know like i s slly
rounded this pole here it's just a
little Nuance cuz when you pound a steak
in if you picture it if it's if it's
convex when you're pounding it it's
going to blow the fibers apart if it has
just a slight concave it helps hold the
fibers together and so it's a little
nuanced not too flat because you want to
still be able to use the back as you
would what kind of stuff are you using
the axe for oh so the axe is super
important to chop through ice in a
winter situation which you probably
hopefully won't
need but what I use an axe all the time
for is when I'm when it's wet and rainy
and you need to start a fire like it's
it's hard to get to the middle of
drywood if just a knife or a saw and so
you can I can go out there find a dead
Tall Tree you know dead standing tree
chop it down split it apart split it
open get to the drywood on the inside
shave it some little curls and have a
fire going pretty fast and so if I have
an axe I feel always confident that I
can get a quick fire in whatever weather
and I wouldn't feel the same without it
in that regard so that's the main thing
um of course you can use it I use it if
you're taking an animal apart or if
you're uh what you know all kinds of uh
what else building a shelter T skin and
tee poles or whatever you're doing
what's the use of a saw versus an X I
greatly prefer an axxe a saw though has
its value goes up quite a bit when
you're in Hardwoods like when you're in
a hardwood Oaks and Hickory and things
like that it's they're a lot harder to
chop so a saw is pretty nice in those
situations I'd say um in those
situations I'd like to have both uh in
the Northwoods and in like more
coniferous forests I don't think there's
enough advantages that a saw incurs with
a good axe now you'll see people with
little like Camp axes and stuff and they
just don't think they like axes it's
like well you haven't actually tried to
try a good one first and get good with
it the one thing about an axe they're
dangerous so you need to like practice
always control it with two hands make
sure you're not you know where it's
going to go it doesn't hit you or when
you're chopping like say you're creating
something that you're not doing it on
rocks and stuff so that it's you're
doing it on top of wood so that when
you're hitting the ground you're not
dulling your axe you know there's you
got to be a little bit thoughtful about
it have you ever injured yourself in an
axe in the early days oh yeah that first
so i' had gotten a knee surgery uh and
then about 3 months later had t my AC I
went over to Russia and I was like well
I got a good knee it's okay and then
that's when I was building that fence
that first time and uh at one point I
chopped my rubber boot with my ax cuz it
reflected off and I was new to them and
uh and I was really frustrated because
I'd done it before and uh and the native
guy was like oh you know we got I think
there's a boot we left you know La you
know a few years ago we left a boot like
4 kmet that way so we got the reindeer
took him rode him over sure enough
there's a stump with a Bo boot upside
down pull it off put it on I was like
sweet I'm back in business went back
couple days later chopped it cut your
foot cut my rubber boot and I was just
like dang it and I was mad enough that I
just grabbed the axe and swung it up the
tree and it just one-handed and like
deflected off and Bam right into my
KNE and I was like oh I fell down I was
like oh my gosh cuz you get your ax
really like raiser sharp and then just
swung it into my knee I didn't even want
to look I was like oh no I looked and it
wasn't huge wound because it had hit
right on the bone of my knee but it
split the bone cut a tend in there and I
was out in the middle of wood so I
literally like I knew I was in shock I
I'm just going to go back to tep right
now so I like ran back to Tepe laid down
and honestly I was stuck there for a few
days I was in so much pain and my other
knee was bad it was like rough I had to
I couldn't even I literally couldn't
even walk at all or move I had to like
there was a plastic bag I had to like
poop in it and like roll to the edge of
the teepee like shove under the M like I
could just totally immobilized I guess
that should teach you to not act when
you're in a state of frustration or
anger there you go I mean it's such a
lesson too there were so many of those
and it was always I was always in a
little bit over my head but like I said
you kind of do that enough and you make
a lot of mistakes but every time you
learn I'm like now it's like an
extension of my arm that's not going to
happen because I just know how it works
now uh you mentioned wet wood uh how you
start a fire when everything's around
you is wet I mean it depends on your
environment but I will say in most of
the forest I spend a lot of time in in
all the Northwoods the best thing you
can do is find a dead standing tree so
it can be downpouring rain and you chop
that tree down and then when you when
you split it open no matter how much
it's been raining it'll be dry on the
inside so you chop that tree down chop a
piece you know a foot long piece out and
then split that thing open and then
split it again and then you get to that
in inner drywood and then you try to do
this maybe under a spruce tree or under
your own body so that it's not getting
rained on while you're doing it make a
bunch of little curls that'll light
catch a flame or light and then you make
a lot of a a lot more kindling and
little pieces of drywood than you think
because what'll happen you'll light it
and it'll burn through and it like dang
it so just be patient you're going to be
fine you know like and make a nice pile
of curls that you can light spark and
then get a lot of good dry kindling and
then don't be afraid to just boom boom
boom pile a bunch of wood on and make a
big old fire get warm as fast as you can
it's amazing how much that of a recharge
it is when you're cold and wet you can
throw relatively wet wood on top of that
once you get that going yeah then it'll
dry as it goes but you need to be able
to split open and get all that nice dry
wood on the inside I saw that you
mentioned that you look for fat wood
what's fat wood so on lot of pine trees
a place where the tree was injured when
it was alive it like pumped sap to it
and then is a good point because I use
this a lot um it pumps that tree full of
sap and then years later the tree dies
dries out rots away but that sap infused
wood um it's it's like turpentine in
there you know it's oily and so if it
gets wet it does you can still light it
it repulses water and so if you can find
that in
a rainstorm you can just make a little
pile of those shavings get the crappiest
spark or quickest light and it'll just
sit there and and burn like a like a
factory fire starter you know it's
really really nice so it's good to spot
it's a good thing to keep your eye out
for yeah it's really fascinating and
then you make this thing that's just to
get the sauna going
fast just that was what was that that
was oil oh it this used motor oil I had
if you mix it with some sawdust and then
no's going just like getting like
homemade fatwood I don't know how many
times I've watched uh happy people uh a
year in the taiga by w a Herzog you've
you've talked about this movie uh where
where is that located relative to where
you were so there's this big river
called the Yen that feeds through the
middle of Russia and there's a bunch of
tributaries off of it and one of the
tributaries is called the Pam Tusa and I
was up that River and just a little ways
North is another river called the Baka
and that's where that Village is where
they filmed happy people so in Siberian
terms we're
neighbors nice similar environment
similar place the for Trapper that I was
with knew the guy you know in the films
what would you say about their way of
life maybe in the way you've experienced
it and the way you saw in happy people
there's there's something really really
powerful about uh spending that much
time being independent you know
depending
on what we talked about a little ear
about you're putting yourself in these
situations all the time where you're
uncomfortable where it's hard but then
you're rising to the occasion you're
making it happen there's nobody when
you're fur tra in by yourself there's
nobody else to look at to blame for
anything that goes wrong it's just
yourself that you're reliant on and
and and there's something about the
natural rhythms that you are in when
you're
when you're that connected to the
natural world that really is does feel
like that's what we're designed for and
so there's a there's a psychological
benefit you gain from spending that much
time in that realm um and for that
reason I think that you know people that
are connected to those ways are able to
tap into a
particular I noticed it a lot with the
natives so if I met the natives in the
village I would think of them as like
unhappy people like like they drink a
lot they
uh always fighting the murder rate is
through the roof the suicide ratees
through the roof but if you meet those
same people how in the woods living that
way of life I thought these are happy
people and it's kind of it's an
interesting justos to be the same person
but um but then you know I lived in a
native Village that had the reindeer
Hing going on around it and everybody
kind of benefited because of that I also
went to a native Village that they
didn't hold those ways anymore and so
everybody was just in the village life
and just felt like a dark place whereas
the other native Village it was rough in
the village because everybody drank all
the time but when it had that escape and
it had that escape valve and then once
you're out there it was just a whole
different world and uh it was such an
odd jux toos it's funny that the people
that go
trapping experience that happiness mhm
and
still don't have a self-awareness to
like stop themselves from then drinking
and doing all the dark stuff to go to
the Village it's it's strange that that
you're not able to you're in it you're
happy but you're not able to sort of
reflect on that the nature of that
happiness that's it's really weird I've
thought about that a lot and I don't I
don't know the answer it's like there's
a huge draw to comfort there's a huge
and it's all multifaceted and somewhat
complex because you know you can be out
in the woods and have this really cool
life I will say it's a little bit
different for men than women because the
men are living like the dream as far as
like what I would like so you're hunting
and fishing and you know managing
reindeer and you got these all these
Adventures so what ends up happening is
that a lot more guys than girl young men
out there in the woods and so there's a
draw also I think to go to the Village
probably to find a woman and then
there's a draw of like technology and
the new things and I think it but then
once they're there honestly alcohol
becomes so overwhelming that everything
else kind of just fiddles away and I
just but it's funny that that the
comfort you find there's a dra of
comfort mhm but once you get to the
Comfort once you find the Comfort within
that comfort you become the Lesser
version of yourself mhm yeah for sure
it's weird what a lesson for us like we
we need to keep struggling yeah a lot of
times you have to force yourself in that
so like if we took them as an example I
mean a lot of times you drag this drunk
guy into the woods literally just drag
him into the woods and then he'd sober
up and then he was like a month black
out drunk and now he's sobered up and
now boom back into life back into being
a knowledgeable um capable person and
because comfort so available to us all
you almost have to force yourself into
that situation plan it out okay I'm
gonna go I'm gonna go do that thing and
do that hard thing and then deal with
the consequences when I'm there what do
you learn from that on the nature of
Happiness what does it take to be happy
happiness is interesting because it's
like it's complex and multi faceted it
includes a lot of things that are out of
your control and a lot of things that
are in your control and um and it makes
it's quite the moving Target in life you
know what I mean so yeah uh I one of the
things that really impacted me when I
was a young man and I read the gulag
archipelago was don't pursue happiness
because the the ingredients to happiness
can be taken from you outside of your
control your health your but pursue like
a spiritual fullness pursue
um pursue I think he words it Duty and
then happiness may come alongside or it
may not but so he gave the example that
I thought was really interesting of in
the prison camps everybody's trying to
survive and they've made that their
ultimate goal I will get through this
and then and they've all basically
turned into animals in pursuit of that
goal and like lying and cheating and
stealing and then he was like somehow
the corrupt Orthodox Church produced
these little babushkas who were like
candles in the middle of all this
Darkness because they did not allow
their soul to get corrupted and he's
like what they did do is they died they
all died but they were lights while they
were alive and lost their lives but they
didn't lose their souls so for myself
that was really powerful to read and
realize that the pursuit of happiness
wasn't exactly what I wanted to aim at I
wanted to aim at living out my life
according to love like we talked about
earlier trying to be that candle trying
to be that candle yeah make that your
ideal and then in doing so is
interesting so when I for me personally
my personal experience of that is I
thought when I went to Russia that I
kind of gave up I was like in my 20s I
spent my whole 20s living in teps and
doing all this stuff that I thought I
should be getting a job I should be
pursuing a career I should get an
education of some sort like what am I
doing for my future but I felt I knew
where my purpose was I knew where my
calling was I'm just going to do it and
it it sounds glamorous now when I talk
about it but it sucked a lot of the
times and there was a lot of
a lot of loneliness a lot of like giving
up what I wanted a lot of watching
people I cared about you know you put
all this effort in and you just see the
people that you get put all this over
and just die and this and that and then
commit it was that happened all the time
and then the other thing I thought I
gave up was like a relationship because
you couldn't uh you know I wasn't going
to find a a partner over there and so
interestingly enough now in life I can
look back and be like who weird those
two things I thought I gave up is where
I've been like almost provided for the
most in life now I have this this career
guiding people in the wilderness that I
love like I genuinely love it I find
purpose in it I know it's healthy and
good for people and then I have an
amazing wife and an amazing family like
how did that happen but I didn't exactly
aim at it I like I I consciously in a
way I mean I hoped it was tangential but
I aimed at something else which was
those lessons I kind of got from the
gulag archipelago so you you have uh
just cuz you if you mentioned Gul
Capello I got to go there um you have
some suffering in your family
history uh whether it's the Armenian
Assyrian genocide or the Nazi occupation
of
France uh maybe you could tell the story
of that what
um this this survival thing it runs in
your blood it seems I love history like
I find so much richness and knowing what
other people went through and find so
much perspective in my own place in the
world um I have the advantage of in my
direct family my grandparents yeah they
went through the Armenian Genocide they
were Assyrians which was a you know like
a Christian minority indigenous people
in the Middle East they lived in
Northwestern Iran and uh during the
chaos of World War I you know
and the Ottoman Empire was collapsing
and had all kinds of issues and it
one of its issues was it had a big
minority group and it thought it would
be a good time to get rid of it and
uh and you know they can justify it in
all the ways you can like there were
some people that were rebelling or this
or that but ultimately it was just a big
Collective
guilt and extermination policy against
the Armenians and the Assyrians and the
uh my
grandparents my grandma was 13 at the
time and my grandpa was 17 which is
interesting because that happened almost
100 years ago but our gen just my dad
was born when my mom was my grandma was
pretty old so um
but my grandmother her dad was taken out
to be shot you know the Turks were
coming in and rounding up all the men
and they took them out to be shot and
then they took my grandma and her she
had seven brothers and sisters and her
mom and they like drove her out into the
desert uh basically she her dad got
taken out to be shot so his name was
shaan Yar or whatever took him out they
were all tied up all shot he said a
quick prayer before they shot him but he
fell down and he uh found he wasn't hit
and usually of course they'd come up and
stab everybody or finish him off but
there was some kind of an alarm and all
the soldiers rushed off and he found
himself in the bodies and was able to
untie himself they were naked and you
know hungry and all that and he ran out
of there escaped went into a building
and found the loaf of bread wrapped in a
shirt and was able to escape it fled he
never saw his family for so to continue
the story my grandma got
taken with her with her mother and
brothers and sisters and all just they
just drove them into the desert until
they died basically and run them around
in circles and this and that and then
all the raping and pillaging that
accompanies it and
um uh at one point her mom had the baby
and the baby died and her mom just
collapsed and said I just can't go any
further and and my grandma and her
sister like picked her up to to we got
to keep going and like picked her up
they left the baby along with the other
everybody else had died it was just the
three of them left and somehow they
bumbled across this British military
camp and were rescued uh the my neither
of the sister nor my great-grandmother
ever really covered as far you know
recovered from what I understand but my
Grandma did um at the at the same time
in another Village in north in Iran
there the Turks came in and were burning
down my grandpa's village and they
caught and my grandpa's dad was in a
wheelchair and he had like some money
belt and he stuffed all his money in it
and told it gave it to Grandpa and just
told him to run and don't turn back and
they came in the front door as he was
running out the back and they uh he
never saw his dad again but he said he
turned around and saw the build you know
the house on fire never knew what
happened to his sister she then so he
was just alone he ran at some point he
uh I can't remember he like lost his
money belt like he took his jacket off
forgot it was in something happened um
anyway so he got he was in a refugee
camp he ended up getting taken in by
some Jesuit missionar so anyway both of
them had lost basically everything and
then at some point they met in
Baghdad started a family immigrated to
France and then it just so happened to
be right before World War II and so then
the Nazis invaded my aunt she's still
alive but she uh she actually met a
resistance fighter you know for the
French and under a bridge somewhere and
they and they fell in love and she got
married so she had kind of an inn on the
on the French Resistance at one point
and of course they were all hungry they'
recently immigrated but also had this
Nazi occupation and all that and so the
Uncle Joe the resistance fighter guy
told him like Hey we're gonna storm this
Noodle Factory like come and so they
stormed the Noodle Factory and all my
aunts around in there and were like
throwing out noodles into wheelbarrows
and everybody was running uh then the
Nazis came back and took it back over
and like shot a bunch of people and
everything and and uh Grandpa because he
had already come from where he came from
was paranoid so he buried all the
noodles out in the garden and then my
two aunts got stuck in that factory
overnight with all the nuts guards or
whatever and then the the Nazi guards
went all from house to house to find
everybody that had had noodles and you
know punish them but they didn't find my
grandpa's fortunately they searched his
house but not the garden and then uh so
they had noodles and somehow must have
been in the same Factory or something
but a olive oil and they just lived off
of that for the all the whole War years
my aunts ended up getting out of the
they hid behind boxes and crates
overnight and stuff and the resistance
stormed again in the morning and this
they got away and stuff but anyway chaos
so when they moved to America I will say
the most patriotic family everywhere
ever they loved it like paradise here I
mean that's a that's a lot to go through
um what lessons do you do you draw from
that on perseverance look I'm one just
one generation away from all that
suffering like my aunts and uncles and
Dad and stuff were the kids of these
people and somehow I don't have that
like what what happened to that trauma
like I it's like somehow my grandparents
bore it and then they were able to build
a family but not just a family that but
a happy family like I knew all my aunts
and uncles and I didn't know them they
died before me but um they were it was
so much joy the family reunions were the
best thing ever at the Jonas's and they
uh um and it's just like how in one
generation did you go from that to that
and and it must have been a great
sacrifice of some sort to not not pass
that much like resentment or like what
did they do to to break that chain in
one generation do you think it works the
other way like where their ability to
escape genocide to
escape uh Nazi
occupation gave them a gratitude for
life it's not a trauma in the sense like
you're forever bearing it it it the flip
side of that is just gratitude to be
alive when you know so many people did
not survive yeah it must be because the
only footage I saw of my grandma was
like they were all the kids and stuff
and they were cooking up a rabbit that
they were raising or whatever and they
uh uh but a joyful woman you could see
it in her and she must have been so she
must have understood how fortunate she
was and been so grateful for it and so
thankful for every one of those 11 kids
she had so I recognized it again in my
in my dad cuz my dad went through a
really slow kind of painful decline in
his health and he had diabetes ended up
losing one leg and so he lost his job he
had to watch his mom or my mom go to
school he long all he wanted to do was
be a provider and be like a family man I
bet the best time in his life was when
his kids ran to him gave him a hug but
then all of a sudden he found himself in
a position where he couldn't work and he
had to watch his wife go to school which
is really hard for her and and become
the bread winner for the family and he
just felt like a failure and I watched
him go through that after all these
years of letting that foot heal we went
out first day and we were splitting
firewood with the splitter and he was
just so good to be back out Jordan is so
nice and he crushed his foot in the log
splitter and you're like No And so then
they just amputated it we got both legs
amputated and then his health continued
to decline he lost his movement in his
hands so he was like incapacitated to a
degree and in a lot of pain I would hear
him at night in pain all the time and uh
I delayed a trip back to R Russia and
just stayed with my dad for those last 6
months and it was so interesting having
had lost everything I've watched him
wrestle with it through the years but
then he found his joy and his
purpose just in being almost I mean a
vegetable I'd have to help him pee I'll
roll him onto the cot take him to
dialysis and and but we would laugh he
would like I'd hear him at night crying
or like in pain like ah and then in the
morning he'd have like encouraging words
to say and and yes at and I was like wow
that's how you face loss and suffering
and and he must have gotten that from
his somehow from his parents and then
you know I find myself on this show and
I had a thought like why is this easy to
me in a way like you know why is this
thing that's so and I was like and it
just felt like this gift that had kind
of handed down and now would be my duty
to hand down you know like it's but it's
kind of an interesting and be the beacon
of that represent that kind of
perseverance in
the in the simp way that something like
survival in the wilderness shows it's
the it's it it it Rhymes it Rhymes and
it's so simple like the lessons are
simple and so we can take them and apply
them so that's on the Survivor side what
about on the people committing the
atrocities what do you make of the
Ottomans what they did to Armenians or
the Nazis what they did to the Jews the
Slavs and basically everyone what what
do you uh why do you think people do
evil in this world
World
um it's interesting that it's really
easy right it's really easy you can
almost see it sense it in yourself to
justify
um to justify a little bit of evil or
you see yourself cheer a little bit when
the enemy gets knocked back in some way
um it's really in the way it's just
Perfectly Natural for us to feed that
hate and feed that tribalism in group
about group we're on this team um and I
think that can
happen I think it just happens slowly
like one justification at a time one
step at a time you
uh you hear something and it makes it
makes you think then that you are in the
right to perform some kind
of you know you're Justified and create
you know break a couple eggs to make an
omelet type thing and then but all of a
sudden that takes you down this whole
train to where pretty soon you're
justifying what's
completely uh unjustifiable say gradual
yeah it's a gradual process of a little
bit at a time I think that's why like
for me like having a a path of faith is
like works as like a mooring because it
can help me shine that light on myself
you know it's like something out because
if you're just looking at yourself and
looking within yourself for for your
compass in life it's really easy to get
that thing out of whack but you kind of
need a perspective from which you can
step out of yourself and look into
yourself and judge yourself accordingly
and am I walking in line with that ideal
you know and then and I think without
that check you're you're subject you
know it's easy to ignore the fact that
you might be able to commit those things
but we live in a pretty easy comfortable
Society like what if you know what if we
pictured yourself in in the position of
my grandparents and then all of a sudden
you got the upper hand in some kind of a
fight what are you going to do you know
you could you definitely
picture
becoming um evil in that situation I
think one
thing faith in God can
do is humble you before these kinds of
complexities of the world and humility
is a way to avoid the slippery slope
towards evil I think humility that you
don't know who the good guys and the bad
guys are mhm and you defer that to sort
of uh bigger powers to try to understand
that yeah I I think there's a kind of I
mean a lot of the atrocities were
committed by people who are very sure of
uh themselves being good yeah that's so
true it is sad that Rel religion is at
times used mhm as a way to kind of just
as is yet another tool for justification
exactly yeah which which is a sad
application of uh of religion really is
it's so inherent and so natural in us
to justify ourselves it's really it's
really I mean I think it's almost
almost uh I mean just understanding
history you read history it it blows my
mind that and I'm super thankful that
somehow and this has been miss you so
much but somehow this idea ology arose
that love your enemies forgive forgive
um those that persecute you uh and just
on down the line that something like
that Rose in the world into a position
where we all kind of accept those ideals
I think is really remarkable and worth
appreciating that said a lot of that
gets wrapped up in what you're talk you
know what is so natural just becomes
another instrument for
tribalism or another justification for
wrong and so I even myself am
self-conscious sometimes talking about
matters of Faith because I know when I'm
talking about I'm talking about
something else other than you know there
everybody than what someone else might
think of when they hear me talking about
it so it's interesting yeah I've been
listening to uh Jordan pet Peterson talk
about this he has a way of articulating
things which is sometimes hard to
understand in the moment but when I like
read it carefully afterwards it starts
to make more sense I've heard him talk
about religion and God as a a kind of
base layer like a metaphorical substrate
from which morality of our sense of what
is right and wrong comes from and just
our conceptions of what is beautiful in
life all these kinds of higher things
that are like
fuzzy understand that their religion
helps create the substrate from which we
as a species like as a civilization can
come up with these Notions and without
it you are lost at sea I guess for him
morality requires that substrate like
you said it's kind of fuzzy so I I've
only been able to get Clear Vision of it
when I live it it's not something you
profess or anything like that just it's
something that you take seriously and
apply in your life and when you live it
then there's some clarity there but that
it has to be kind of defined like it
it's like it's and that's where you come
in with the religion and the stories
because if you leave it completely
undefined I don't know really know where
you go from there I actually the funny
to speak to that I did mushroom have you
ever done those before mushrooms yeah uh
I've done them a couple times but one
time was didn't do that many the other
time more and I had a I had a really
profound experience in helping
couch all this in in a proper context
for myself so I could I when I did it I
remember I was sitting on a swing and I
could see my everything was so Blissful
except I could see my black hands like
on these chains like on the swing but
everything else was Blissful and kind of
amorphous and I could see the outline of
my kids and I could just feel the love
for them and I was just like man I just
feel the love it's so wonderful why you
know but then I would you know at times
I would try to picture them and I
couldn't quite picture the kids but I
could feel the love and then um and then
I started asking all the deepest in
existential questions I could you know
and it felt like I was just one answer
another answer another answer everything
was being answered and I felt like I was
communing with God whatever you want to
say and but I was very aware of the fact
that that communing was just peeling
back the tiniest corner of the infinite
and it just dumped me with every answer
I felt like I could have and it kind of
blew me away so then I asked it well if
you're the infinite like why did you
reveal to me yourself why did use like
the story of Jesus to Reve reveal
yourself and and
then that
infinite um Amorphis thing had to
somehow take form for us to like for us
to be able to relate to it it had to
have some kind of a form and but
whenever you create a form out of
something you're like boxing it in and
subjugating it to boundaries and stuff
like that and then that subject to pain
and subject to the Brokenness and all
that and I was like oh wow and then but
when I that thought then all of a sudden
I I could relate my like dark hands on
the chains to the rest of the experience
and then all of a sudden I could picture
my children as the children rather than
this amorphous feeling of love it was
like oh there's aana Al and and but but
then they were bounded and then once
they're bounded you're subject to the
death and to the misunderstanding and to
the all that and like you know I picture
the amoeba that or the cell and then
when it dies it it turns into a
unformed thing and uh so we need some
kind of form to relate to so instead of
always just talking about God completely
intangibly it kind of gave me a way to
relate to it and I was like oh wow
that's that was really powerful to me in
in putting it in a context that
was
applicable But
ultimately God is sort of the thing
that's formless that is unbounded right
we humans
need I mean that's the the the purpose
of stories they resonate with something
in us but when you need the sort of the
bounded nature the constraints of those
stories mhm otherwise we wouldn't be
able to like can't relate to it can't
relate to it yeah yeah and and then when
you look at the stories literally or you
just look at them just as they are it
seems um silly mhm just too simplistic
right right and then that was always you
know all my a lot of my family and loved
ones and friends have completely left
the faith but and I totally in the way I
get it like I understand but I also
really see the baby that's being thrown
out with the bath water and I want to
cherish that in a way I guess and it's
interesting that you say that the way to
know what's right and wrong is uh you
have to live it sometimes it's it's
probably very difficult to articulate
but mhm in in the living of it do you
realize it yeah and that I'm glad you
say that because that's I found a lot of
comfort in that because I feel somewhat
inarticulate a lot of the times and
unable to articulate my thoughts
especially on these matters and then you
just think it's I just have to but I do
have to I can live it I can try to live
it you know and then what I also am
struck with right away is I can't
because you can't love everybody you
can't love your enemies and you can't um
but as placing that in front of you as
the ideal is so important to put like a
a check on your human instincts on your
tribalism on your uh I mean you can very
quickly like we talking about with evil
you know it can really quickly take its
place in your life almost you almost
won't observe it happening you know but
uh and so I so much appreciate all the
the me striving and that's where you
know I grew up in a Christian family so
I had these like cliches that I didn't
really understand like a relationship
with God like what does that mean but
then I realized when I struggled with
trying with taking I actually did try to
take it seriously and struggle with what
does it mean to live out a life of love
in the world but that's like a wrestling
match because it's not that simple it
doesn't sound it sounds good but it's
really hard to do and then you realize
you can't do it perfectly but but in
that struggle in that wrestling match is
where I actually sense that relationship
and then it's and that's where it kind
of gains life and how that really and
that I'm sure that relates to what
Jordan Peterson is you know getting at
in his in his metaphor um yeah in this
in the striving right of the
ideal uh in the striving towards the
ideal you
discover the how to be a better person
one thing I noticed really tangibly on
alone was that because I had have so
many people that were close to me kind
of just leave it all together I was I
could do that like I actually understand
why they do or I could not you know I do
have a choice and so I had to choose at
that point
to to maintain that ideal and because I
could add enough time on aone one nice
thing is you don't have any distractions
you have all the time in the world to go
into your head and uh I could play those
paths out in my life and not only in my
life but I feel like societally and for
and generationally like he throw it all
away and everybody's start from square
one or we can try to you know redeem
what's valuable in this and wrestle with
it and strug and so I I just I chose
that path well I do think it's a it's a
kind of wrestling match because I'm I'm
you mentioned Gulag archipelago I'm very
much a believer that we all have the
capacity for good and evil MH and
striving for the ideal to be a good
human being is not a trivial one you
have to find the right tools for
yourself to be able to be the candle as
you mentioned before I like that and
then for that uh religion and faith can
help I'm sure there's other ways but I
think it's grounded in understanding
that each human is able to be a really
bad person and a really good person and
that's like a choice it's a deliberate
choice and it's a choice that's taken
every moment and builds up over time
and and and the hard part about it is
you don't know you don't always have the
clarity using reason to understand what
is good and what is right and what is
wrong you have to kind of live it uh
with humility and constantly struggle
cuz then yeah you have to you have you
might wake up in a society where um
you're committing genocides mhm and you
think you're the good guys and I think
you have to have the the courage to to
realize you're not it's not always
obvious it isn't man and history has the
clarity to show who are the good guys
and who are the bad guys right you
wrestle with it it's like that quote you
know the line between good and evil goes
through the heart of every man and we
push it this way and that and our job is
to work on that within
ourselves yeah that's the part it's uh
what I like sort of the full quote talks
about the the fact that it moves it
moves from the line moves Moment by
moment day by day we have the uh the
freedom to uh move that line so it's
like a it's very deliberate thing it's
not like you're born this way and it's
it's it yeah I I agree and and
especially you know in conditions that
are like War and Peace
uh in the case of the camps you know
absurd levels of
Injustice in the face of all that when
everything is taken away from you you
still have the choice to to be to be the
candle like the grandmas by the way the
grandmas in like all parts of the world
are like the strongest shout out to
Grandma
seriously like I don't know what it is I
don't know they have this like wisdom
uh that comes from patience and have
seen it all have seen all the bullshit
of the people that come and gone all the
abuses of power all this I don't know
what it is and they just keep going
right
right yeah it's so true what do you
think of
uh as we've gotten a bit philosophical
what do you think of uh Warner Herzog
style of narration I kind of wish he
narrated my
life yeah it's a amazing to listen to
cuz that documentary is actually in
Russian I think he took a longer Series
yeah and then put narration over it MH
and that narration can
transform like story yeah he does an
incredible job with it I I will say I
have you seen the full version have you
watched the four-part full version you
should you like it it's in Russian and
so you'll get the fullness of that and
it's uh he had to fit it into a two-hour
format and so I think what you lose in
those extra couple hours is worth
watching I think you'll like it so yeah
they always go they always go pretty
dark do they he has a very dark uh sense
about nature that is violence and it's
murder I think that's important to
recognize because it's really easy I
mean especially with what I do and what
I talk about and and I see so much of
the value in
nature gosh you know I also see like a
beautiful moose and a calf running
around and then next week I see the calf
ripped the shreds by wolves and you're
just like oh
and it's uh it's not as it's it's not as
rouso and as we'd like to think you know
it
is it you know things must die for
things to live like you said and and
that's just played out all the time and
it's indifferent to you doesn't doesn't
care if you live or die it and doesn't
care how you die or how much pain you go
through while you you know it's like
it's pretty brutal so that it's
interesting that he Taps into that and I
think I think it's valuable because it's
easy to idealize in a way but yeah the
indifference
is I don't know what to make of it there
is an indifference it's a bit scary it's
a bit lonely mhm you're just a cog in
the in the machine of
nature that doesn't really care about
you totally I think that's something i'
sat with a lot on on that show is
another part of the depths of your
psychology delve into but it and that's
when I thought like I could I could I
understand that deeply but I could also
choose to believe yeah that for some
reason it matters and then I could live
like it matters and then I could see the
trajectories and then kind of that was
another fork in the road of my path I
guess what do you think about the
connection to the animals so in that in
that movie it's with the dogs mhm and uh
with you it's the other domesticated the
the
reindeer um what do you think about that
human animal Connection in the context
of that indifference isn't it
interesting that we assigned so much
value and love and appreciation for
these animals and in some degree we get
that back you know reciproc I think
right now you just said the reindeer I
think of uh the one they gave me because
he was long and Tall so they named him
delen and and I just remember delen and
just watching him eat the leaves go with
me through the woods and trust him to
take me through rivers and stuff and uh
and it really is special it's really
enriching you know uh to have that
relationship with an animal and I think
it also puts you in a proper context one
thing I noticed about the natives who
live with those animals all the time is
they relate to life and death a little
more naturally it feels you know we feel
really removed from it it's particularly
in urban settings and I think I think
when you interact with animals and you
have to confront the life and the death
of them and the responsibility of a
symbiotic relationship you have um I
think it opens a little bit awareness to
your place in the in the puzzle
and puts you in it rather than above it
have you been able to accept your own
death I wonder you know you wonder when
when it actually comes what you're going
to think but I I did have you know I did
did have my dad to
watch confronted in as positive a manner
as you could and I and that's a big
advantage and so
I I I think when the time comes that I
will be ready but I think it but I think
that's easy to say when the time feels
far off you know it'll be interesting if
you got a cancer diagnosis tomorrow and
stage four it's
like be heavy did you ever confront
death while in survival situations I
mean when you're I mean you're in did I
did have a time I had a time where I
thought I might I was going to die I had
a lot of situations that could have gone
either way and a lot of injuries broken
ribs and this and that but the one that
that I was able to be conscious through
a slowly evolving experience that I
thought I might die in was at one point
we were siphoning gas out of a a barrel
and it was almost to the bottom and I
was like start sucking really hard to
get the gas out and then I didn't I
didn't get the siphon gun so I like
waited and then while I was sitting
there Ura put the a new canister on top
and put the hose in and I didn't see and
so then I went to get another you know
siphon and I went like sucked as hard as
I could and it just instantly like a
bunch of gas filled my mouth and I
couldn't like spit it out I had to go
like that and I just full mouthful of
gas that I just drank and I was just
like oh like what is that going to do
and um wow and he and my friend were
going to go on This fishing trip and so
was I and I was just like oh I might
just day and I was in this little
Russian village and uh and they're like
all right well Euro was like man I had a
buddy that died doing that with diesel a
couple years ago you know and I was oh
man and so anyway I made my way to the
hospital and by then you know you're
really out of it cuz and then uh and it
was they put me in this little dark room
it almost sounds like unrealistic but
it's actually how it happened they put
me in a little a little to room with a
toilet and they gave me cold you know
galvanized bucket and then like they had
a cold water faucet and they're just
like just chug water and puke into the
toilet and just flush your system as
much as you can but they only had a cold
water faucet so I was just sitting there
like chug chug chug chug until like you
puke and chug until you puke and I'm in
the dark and I and I was like started to
shiver because I was so cold but I just
had to like still like get this thing up
to me and chug until I PUK I was
picturing I remember reading you know
about the Japanese torture where they
would put a hose in somebody and then
make them drink water till they puked
anyway the uh and I and I just felt so
the only way I can express it I felt so
possessed like demon possessed like I
was just permeated with gas I could feel
it was coming out of my pores and I like
wanted to like rip it out of me and I
couldn't I'd like puke into the toilet
and then couldn't see but I was
wondering if it was like rainbow and
then and then I just remember like I
could tell I was going out pretty soon
and
um and I remember looking at my hands up
close you'd see him a little bit and I I
was like oh that's how dad's hands
looked you know they were alive alive
and then and I was like
interesting is it are my hands going to
look like that in a few minutes or
whatever so then I wrote down like to my
family what I thought you know like I
love you all like feel at peace blah
blah BL blah and then I've passed out
and I woke up but I didn't think I
actually thought I when I went to pass
out I thought it was there was a coin
toss for me so I really felt like I was
fronting the uh end
there what are the harshest conditions
to surviving on Earth well there are
places that are just purely
uninhabitable but I think as far as
places that you have a chance you have a
chance that's a good way to put it what
with maybe Greenland I think of
Greenland because I think of you know
those Vikings that settled there were
rugged capable dudes and they didn't
make it but there are Inuit that that
you know natives that live up there but
it's a hard life you know and the
population's never grown very big
because they're you're scraping by up
there and you picture and the and the
Vikings that did land there you know
they just weren't able to quite adapt
and the fact that they all died out is
just a symbol to that must be a pretty
difficult place to live what would you
say that's that's primarily because just
the food sources are limited the food
sources are limited but the fact that
some people can live there means it is
possible you know they they've figured
out ways to to catch seals and do things
to survive but it's by no means easier
to be taken for granted or obvious I
think it's a harsh probably a harsh
place to try to live yeah it's it's
fascinating not just humans but to to
watch how animals have figured out how
to survive of watching like a
documentary on polar bears like they
just figure out a way and they get then
and they've been doing it for
generations and they they figure out a
way they travel like hundreds of miles
to like
to to the to the water to get fat and
then they travel 100 miles like for
whatever other purpose because it
because they want to stay on the ice I
don't know but it's like there's there's
a process and they figure it out against
the long odds and some of them don't
make it it's incredible it's a what a
what tough things man you just think
every little every animal you see up in
the mountains when I'm up in the woods
is that thing just surviving through the
wi winter scraping
it's tough tough existence what do you
think it would take to break
you say
mentally um like if you're in a survival
[Music]
situation I mean I think it would H
mentally it would have to
be uh well we thought we talked about
that earlier I guess the thing that I've
confronted that that I thought I knew
was that if I knew I was the last person
on Earth I wouldn't do it like I thought
but maybe you're right maybe I would
think I wasn't but I think you know I
can't imagine I can't
imagine we're we're so blessed in the
time we live like but I can't imagine
what it's like to lose your kids
something like that it was an experience
that was so common for Humanity for so
much of History
um would I be able to endure that I
would have at least a legacy to look
back on of people who did but
God forbid I ever have to delve that
deep you know what I mean that that I
could see that breaking somebody and I
mean in your F in your own family
history there's there's people who have
survived that maybe that would give you
hope I I mean I think that's what I
would have to somehow hold on to but in
a survival situation you're there's very
few things that I don't know what it
would be like so on alone like on alone
I I knew if I wasn't gonna and
ultimately it is a game show so it's
like ultimately I was GNA kill myself
out there it's like
but so if I hadn't been able to procure
food and I was starving to death it's
like okay I'm not I'm gonna go home you
know but like if you put yourself in in
that situation but it's not a game
show and having been there to some
degree like I will say I wasn't even
close like I don't even know yeah yeah I
hadn't got it hadn't pushed my mental
limit at all yet I would say on the
scale but that's not to say there isn't
one I know there is one and but I have a
hard
time I know I've dealt you I've dealt
with enough pain and
enough discomfort in life that I know I
can deal with that I think I think it
gets difficult when you start to when
there's a way out and you start to
wonder if you shouldn't take the way out
as far as
like uh if there's no way
out I don't know what oh it's
interesting I mean that is that is a
real difficult battle when there's an
exit when it's easy to quit right why am
I doing this yeah that's I that's the
thing that like gets louder and louder
the harder things get toally it's not
insignificant like if you think you're
doing like you know if you think you're
doing permanent damage to your body you
would be smart to quit you should just
not do that on a when it's not necessary
um because health is kind of all you
have in some regards
so do I don't blame anyone then they
quit because of that reason it's like
good but
uh but if you're in a situation and it
you don't have the option to quit is
knowing that you're doing permanent
that's not going to break that won't
break me you know it just you just have
to get through it I'm not sure what my
mental limit would be outside of
like the family suffering in the way
that I described earlier one is just
it's you it's you alone there's the
limit uh you don't know what the limit
is I don't injuries injuries like
physical stuff is annoying
though that could be isn't it weird how
like I mean I can be have a good life
happy life and then you have a bad back
or you have a headache yeah and it's
amazing how much that can overwhelm your
experience um then again
that that was something I saw in dad
that was like interesting how can you
find joy
in that when you're just steeped in that
all the time and people I'm sure
listening there's a lot of people that
do and it's
so like and and talk about the cross to
bear and the like Hero Journey to be
like good for you for trying to
find what you can what your way through
that there was a lady in Russia uh Tanya
and she had had cancer and recovered but
always had a pounding headache and she
was really joyful and really fun to be
around and I just like
man I mean you just have to have a
really bad headache for today know how
much that throws a wrench in your
existence so so all that to say if
you're not right now suffering with
blindness or a bad back or it's like
just count your blessings because it is
all it's so easy to have it's it's
amazing how complex we are how well our
bodies work and when they go out of
whack it can be very overwhelming and
they all will at some point and so
that's an inter interesting thing to
think ahead on how you're going to
confront it when it does keeps you
humble like you said it's inspiring that
people figure out a way with migraines
that's a hard one though if you have
headaches so hard oh man cuz those can
be really painful and it's like and
dizzying and all
this yeah that's inspiring that's
inspiring that you found there's not
nothing in that you know I mean there
you can find somehow you can tap into
purpose even in that pain I guess I
would just speak from like right my
dad's experience I saw somebody do it
and I benefited from it
so thanks to him for seeing the higher
calling there you uh you are a note on
your blog in 2012 you spent 5 weeks is
in the forest alone I just thought it
was interesting cuz this is in contrast
to on the show alone mhm you really
alone where like you're not talking to
anybody and you realize that uh I you're
right I remember at one point after
several weeks had passed I wondered into
a particularly beautiful part of the
woods and exclaimed out loud wow it
struck me that it was the first time I
had heard my own voice in several weeks
with no one to talk to what
um where what did your thoughts go into
some like deep Place yeah I'd say my
mental life was really active you know
what you what you end up when you're
that long alone I tell you what you
won't have is any like skeletons in your
closet that are still in your closet
like you will be forced to confront
every every person even the one not it I
mean it's one thing if you've cheated on
your W wife or something but you'll be
confronted with the random dude you
didn't say thank you to and like and the
issue that you didn't resolve you know
all this stuff that was long gone will
come up and then you'll work through it
and you'll think how you should make it
right and uh I had a lot of those
thoughts in while I was out there and it
was it was so interesting to see what
you would just brush over and
then uh and confront it because in our
modern world when you're always
distracted you just never ever going to
know until you take the time to be alone
for a considerable amount of time spend
time hanging out with the skeletons yeah
exactly
I recommend it so you said you guide
people what what are your favorite
places to go
to well if I tell them then is everybody
G to go there I like how you actually
have a it might be a YouTube video or
your Instagram post where you give them
a recommendation of like the best
fishing pole in the world and like you
give detailed instructions how to get
there but it's like a journey of life
it's like a Lord of the Rings type of
Journey right right no I I love the I
love love the like in
the you know there's a region that I
definitely love in the states it's
special to me I grew up there stuff like
that Idaho Wyoming Montana those are
really cool places to me I like the
small town Vibes they're still
maintaining and stuff there just a mix
of like mountains and
forests but you know another really
awesome place that blew my mind was uh
New Zealand that South Island of New
Zealand was pretty incredible as far is
just stunning stuff to see I was pretty
high up there on the list but there's
all these places have such kind of
unique unique things about Canada became
like where they did alone it's not
typically what you'd say because it's
fairly flat and Cliffy and stuff but it
really became beautiful to me because I
could tapped into the richness of the
land you know or or you know the fishing
hole thing it's like that's a special
little spot you know something like that
and and you see the beauty and then you
start to see the beauty on the in the
smaller scale like oh look at that
little Meadow with that it's got an
orange and a pink and a blue flower
right next to each other that's super
cool you know and there's a million
things like that have you been back
there yet uh back to where the alone
show was no we're going back this uh
summer I'm going to take guide a trip up
there take a bunch of people I'm really
looking forward to being able to enjoy
it without the pressure
of it's be fun what what advice would
you give to people in terms of
how
to be in nature so like a Hikes to take
or Journeys to take out of nature where
it could it could take you to that place
where the busyness and The Madness of
the world
can dissipate and you can be with it
like how long does it take for you for
people usually to just like yeah I think
you need a few days probably to really
tap into it but you know maybe you need
to work your way there like it it's
awesome to go out on a hike go see some
beautiful little waterfall or go see
some old tree or whatever it is you know
like
um but I think just doing is it that you
know everybody thinks about doing it
really you just really do do it like go
out and then plan to go overnight don't
be so afraid of all the potentialities
that you delay it inevitably you know
it's actually one of the things that
I've enjoyed the most about guiding
people is is giving them the tools so
that now they have this ability into the
future you can go out and feel like I'm
going to pick this spot on the map and
go there and that's a tool in your
toolkit of life that is I think really
valuable because I think everybody
should spend some time in nature I mean
I think it's been pretty proven healthy
yeah I mean camping camping is great and
solo I got a chance to do it solo is
pretty cool yeah that's cool you did
yeah it's cool and I I recorded stuff so
that that that helped oh good yeah till
you sit there and you record the
thoughts actually for having to record
the thoughts I had to like it forced me
to really think through what I was
feeling to convert the feelings into
words which is uh not a trivial thing
because it's mostly just feeling MH yeah
you feel a certain kind of
way that's interesting you know I felt
like the way of the way I met my wife
was like you know we met at this wedding
and then I went to Russia basically and
we kept in touch via email for you know
that year and and a similar thing it was
really interesting to be have to be so
thoughtful and purposeful about what
you're saying and thing like I think
it's probably healthy good thing to do
what gives you hope about this whole
thing we have going
on the uh the future of human
civilization if we talk you know we
talked about gratitude earlier like look
look at what we have now that could give
you hope like look at what we've the
world we're in we live in such an
amazing time with you know buildings and
Roads buildings and Roads food security
and and you know I lived with the
natives and I thought to myself a lot
like I wonder if not everybody would
choose this way of life because it is
there's something really rich about just
that small group your direct
relationship to your needs all that but
with the food security and the
he you know modern medicine things that
we now have that we take for granted but
that I wouldn't choose that life if we
didn't have those things otherwise
you're going to watch your family starve
to death or things like that we uh so we
have so much now which should lead us to
be hopeful um while we try to improve
because there's definitely a lot of
things wrong you know but but I guess
it's there's a lot of room for
improvement and I do feel like we're
sort of watching walking on The knife's
Edge you know but I guess
that's the way it is um as the as the
tools we build become more powerful yeah
exactly KN Edge is getting sharper and
sharper I I talk yeah I like argue with
with my brother about that sometimes he
takes the more positive View and I'm
like I mean it's great we've done great
but man more and more people with
nuclear weapons and more it's just going
to take one mistake with the more power
I think there's something about the
sharpness of the knife's edge mhm that
gets Humanity to really like focus and
like step up and not not screw it up
there is just like you said with the
cold going out into the extreme cold it
like wakes you up and I think the same
thing with nuclear weapons it just like
wakes up Humanity like was half
asleep and then we keep building more
and more powerful things to make sure
stay awake yeah exactly stay awake see
what we've done be thankful for it but
then improve it and then you know of
course uh I appreciated your little post
the other week where you said you wanted
some kids you know that's a that's a
very direct way to relate to the Future
and to have hope for the future I can't
wait and uh hopefully I also get a
chance to go out in the wilderness with
you at some point I would love it open
invite let's make it happen I got some
really cool spots of it have in mind to
take you awesome let's go thank you for
talking today brother thank you for
everything you stand for thanks
man thanks for listening to this
conversation with Jordan and Jonas to
support this podcast please check out
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description and now let me try a new
thing where I try to articulate some
things I've been thinking about whether
prompted by one of your questions or
just in general if you would like to
submit a question including an audio and
video form go to Lex freeman.com
AMA now allow me to comment on the
attempted assassination of Donald Trump
on July
13th first as I've posted online wishing
Donald Trump good health after an
assassination attempt is not a partisan
statement it's a human
statement and I'm sorry if some of you
want to categorize me and other people
into blue and red
bins perhaps you do it because it's easy
easier to hate than to understand in
this case it shouldn't matter but let me
say once again that I am not right-wing
nor leftwing I'm not partisan I make up
my mind one issue at a time and I try to
approach everyone and every idea with
empathy and with an open mind I have and
will continue to have many long form
conversations with people both on the
left and the
right now onto the much more important
point the attempted assassination of
Donald Trump should serve as a reminder
that history can turn on a single moment
World War I started with the
assassination of arch Duke France
Ferdinand and just like that one moment
in history on June 18th
1914 led to the death of 20 million
people half of whom were
civilians if one of the bullets on July
13th had a slightly different trajectory
where Donald Trump would end up dying in
that small town in
Pennsylvania history would write a new
dramatic chapter the contents of which
all the so-called experts and pundits
would not be able to predict it very
well could have led to a civil war
because the true depth of the division
in the country is unknown we only see
the surface turmoil on social media and
so on and in his events like the
assassination of arch Duke France
Ferdinand where we we as a human species
get to find out what the truth is of
where people really
stand the task then is to try and make
our society maximally resilient and
robust as such destabilizing events the
way to do that I think is to properly
identify the threat the enemy it's not
the left or the right that are the quote
enemy extreme division itself is the
enemy some division is productive it's
how we develop good ideas and policies
but too much leads to the spread of
resentment and hate that can boil over
into destruction on a global scale so we
must absolutely avoid the slide into
extreme division there are many ways to
do this and perhaps it's a discussion
for another time but at the very basic
level let's continuously try to turn
down the temperature of the partisan
bickering and more often celebrate our
obvious common Humanity now let me also
comment on conspiracy theories I've been
hearing a lot of those
recently I think they play an important
role in society they ask questions that
serve as a check on Power and Corruption
of centralized
institutions the way to answer the
questions raised by conspiracy theories
is not by dismissing them with arrogance
and feigned ignorance but with
transparency and
accountability in this particular case
the obvious question that needs an
honest answer is why did the Secret
Service fail so terribly in protecting
the former
president the story we're supposed to
believe is that a 20-year-old untrained
loner was able to outsmart the Secret
Service by finding the optimal location
on a roof for a shot on Trump from 130
yards away even though the Secret
Service sniper spotted him on the roof
20 minutes before the shooting and did
nothing about it
this looks really shady to
everyone why does it take so long to get
to a full accounting of the truth of
what happened and why is the reporting
of the truth concealed by corporate
governments speak cut the bullshit what
happened who fucked up and why that's
what we need to know that's the
beginning of transparency and yes the
director of the US Secret Service should
probably step down or be fired by the
president and not as part of some
political circus that I'm sure is coming
but as a step towards uniting an
increasingly divided and cynical
Nation conspiracy theories are not noise
even when they're false they are a
signal that some shady corrupt secret
bullshit is being done by those trying
to hold on to power not always but often
transparency is the answer here not
secrecy if we don't do these things we
leave ourselves vulnerable the singular
moments that turn the tides of History
Empires do fall Civil Wars do break out
and tear apart the fabric of
societies this is a great nation the
most successful Collective human
experiment in the history of Earth and
letting ourselves become extremely
divided risks destroying all of that so
please ignore the political pundits the
political grifters clickbait media
outrage fueling politicians on the right
and the left who try to divide us we're
not so divided we're in this
together as I've said many times before
I love you
all this is a long comment I'm hoping
not to do comments this long in the
future and hoping to do many more so
I'll I'll leave it here for today but
I'll try to answer questions and make
comments on every episode if you would
like to submit questions like I met
mentioned including audio and video form
go Lex freeman.com
and now let me leave you with some words
from Ralph Waldo
Emerson adopt the pace of nature her
secret is
patience thank you for listening and
hope to see you next time