Kind: captions
Language: en
My strength lies not in my name but in
the backing of 1.4 billion Indians and
thousands of years of timeless culture
and
heritage. So wherever I go I carry with
me the essence of thousands of years of
vic
tradition the timeless teachings of
Swami
Viveanand and the
blessings dreams and aspirations of 1.4
4 billion
Indians. When I shake hands with a world
leader, it's not
Modi but 1.4 billion Indians doing so.
So this isn't my strength at all. It is
rather the strength of India. Whenever
we speak of peace, the world listens to
us. Because India is the land of Gautam
Buddha and Mahatma Gandhi and
Indians aren't hardwired to espouse
strife and
conflict. We espouse harmony instead. We
seek neither to wage war against nature
nor to foster strife among nations. We
stand for peace and wherever we can act
as peacemakers we have gladly embraced
that
responsibility. My early life was spent
in extreme
poverty but we
never really felt the burden of poverty.
You see, someone who is used to wearing
fine
shoes will feel their
absence when they don't have them. But
for us, we had never worn shoes in our
lives. So, how would we even know that
wearing shoes was a big deal? We weren't
in a position to compare. That's just
how we lived. When I became prime
minister, I specially invited Pakistan
to my swearing in ceremony so we could
turn over a new leaf. Yet every noble
attempt at fostering peace was met with
hostility and
betrayal. We sincerely hope that wisdom
prevails upon them and they choose the
path of peace. I believe even the people
of Pakistan long for peace. Look,
regarding what you said about criticism
and how I deal with it, if I had to
summarize in one sentence, I welcome
it. I have a strong
belief
that criticism is the soul of
democracy. I want to tell all the young
people the
following. No matter
How dark the night may
seem, it is still just
night and morning is bound to
come. The following is a conversation
with Narendra Modi, the Prime Minister
of
India. It was one of the most moving
conversations and experiences of my
life. Allow me here to say a few words
about it. Please skip ahead straight to
our conversation if you like. Narendra
Mod's life story is incredible. He rose
from poverty to lead a nation of 1.4
billion people, the biggest democracy in
the world, where he won epic scale
elections for prime minister three
times. As a leader, he fought for ideas
that unite his nation of India. A nation
that is composed of a large number of
highly varied and disperate cultures and
peoples who have a long history marked
by religious, social, and political
frictions. He's known for taking
decisive, at times controversial actions
for which he is loved by hundreds of
millions of people and is also
criticized by many. We discuss all of
this at length in this
conversation. On the world stage, he is
respected as a peacemaker and friend by
most major world leaders, even those
whose nations are at war with each
other, from United States to China to
Ukraine and Russia to Israel, Palestine,
and the Middle East and everywhere else.
Now, at this moment in history, it is
clear, at least to me, that the
flourishing of human civilization hangs
in the balance with several wars on the
brink of escalation to regional and even
global conflict, rising tensions between
nuclear powers, technological
developments from AI to nuclear fusion
that aim to completely transform society
and geopolitics as we know it, and of
course, generally increasing political
and cultural turmoil.
So now more than ever, we need great
leaders, great peacemakers who build
bridges, not destroy them, who may
preserve the identity of their nations,
but still celebrate the common humanity
of all of us, all people on Earth. For
this and many other reasons, this
conversation with Prime Minister Modi
was one of the most remarkable I've ever
had.
You may hear such words and think that
I'm just enamored by power or access.
No, never was, never will be. I do not
idolize anyone, especially those in
power. I'm generally skeptical of power,
money, and fame because of their natural
corrupting influence on the mind, the
heart, the soul of a person. The whole
point of all the conversations I've had
in my life, on mic and off mic, is that
I try to see and explore the full
complexity of every human being, the
good and the
bad. I believe we're all the same in a
deep fundamental sense. All capable of
good, all capable of evil, all carry
stories of pain and stories of hope.
Whether you're a world leader or a truck
driver, a coal miner, or a farmer in the
American Midwest. And by the way, I will
be talking to a lot of the latter kind
of folk this year off mic and maybe even
on mic as I travel the US and the world.
My brief statements here about Narendra
Modi are about both him as a leader and
especially him as a human being. In the
extensive time I spent with him and
spoke with him off mic and on mic, it
was a deeply personal human interaction
characterized by warmth, kindness,
humor, inner and outer peace and
absolute focus on the conversation
between us in the present moment as if
nothing else existed.
I have heard from many people that he
treats everyone he meets in this
empathic way, no matter where they come
from or what their position is in this
world. So for those and many other
reasons, this really was an incredible
experience I will never
forget. Oh, and by the way, we made
captions and voiceover audio tracks
available in English, Hindi, and other
languages. You can also listen to the
original mixed language version where I
speak English and Prime Minister Modi
speaks Hindi. Separately, you can choose
to turn on subtitles in your preferred
language. On YouTube, you can switch
between language audio tracks by
clicking the settings gear icon, then
clicking audio track, and then selecting
the language you prefer. For fully
English overdub, select English. For
fully Hindi overdub, select Hindi. And
to listen to the original mixed language
version where I speak English and Prime
Minister Modi speaks Hindi, please
select Hindi Latin audio track. So you
can listen either to a version that is
all one language or to the original
mixed language version with subtitles in
your preferred language. The default is
English overdub where thanks to 11 Labs
and a great team of translators, we do
our best to bring the prime minister's
voice to life with AI voice cloning in
English. I promise that we will continue
to work very hard to break down the
barriers that language creates and try
to make these conversations as
accessible as possible to everyone in
the world.
Anyway, let me pause one more time to
say a big thank you. What a wild ride
this life has been. It's an honor for me
to be on it with all of you. I love you
all. This is the Lex Freedman podcast.
And now, dear friends, here's the Prime
Minister of India, Narendra
Modi. So, I should also say I'm fasting
right now. It's been almost two days, 45
hours. Uh, so just water, uh, no food.
In honor of this conversation, just to
get in the right mindset, get into the
spirit spiritual level. I've read that
you often fast for many days. Can you
explain why you fast and where does your
mind go when you fast?
First of all, I'm truly pleasantly
surprised and
honored that you're fasting.
All the more because it feels
like you're fasting as a tribute of
respect for me. So I express my deepest
gratitude to you for doing
this. In
India, our religious
traditions are actually a way of life.
Our Supreme Court once gave
a brilliant interpretation of Hinduism.
It's a way of living, a philosophy that
guides life
itself. And in our
scriptures, there is deep
discussion on
elevating the body, mind, intellect,
soul and humanity.
They outline various paths, traditions
and systems to achieve
this and fasting is one of
them. But fasting alone isn't
everything. In
India, whether you see it culturally or
philosophically, sometimes I see that
fasting is a way to cultivate
discipline. If I put it in simple terms
or explain it to the viewers who are
unfamiliar with
India, it is a powerful tool to bring
both the inner and outer
self into
balance. It shapes life in profound
ways. When you
fast, you may have noticed as you said,
you've been fasting on water for two
days.
Every single one of your
senses, especially smell, touch, and
taste, becomes highly
sensitive. You may even notice the
subtle aroma of water
itself. Something you probably never
noticed before when drinking it. If
someone walks past you carrying
tea, you will catch its aroma just like
you would with coffee.
A small flower you've seen before, you
will see it again
today. But now you can perceive its
details more vividly.
Your senses become extra
sharp, highly
aware and fully tuned
in and
uh their
capability to observe and to respond
multiplies and grow
sharper. I have personally often
experienced this. Another thing I've
experienced is that
fasting can greatly
accelerate the thinking process and can
uh give a fresh perspective. You start
thinking outside the box. I don't know
if everyone experiences this but I
certainly do.
Most people assume that
fasting simply means giving up food or
not
eating. But that's just the physical
aspect of
fasting. If someone is forced to go
without food due to
hardship with an empty stomach, can we
call that
fasting? Fasting is actually a
scientific process. Whenever I fast for
an extended period, I prepare my body in
advance for 5 to 7 days before the fast.
I follow various ayurvedic practices and
yoga practices along with other
traditional cleansing methods to
internally reset my
system. Before actually beginning the
fast, I make sure to drink a lot of
water as much as possible.
So you could say that this
detoxification process helps prepare my
body in the best possible way. And once
I begin fasting, for me it's an act of
devotion. For me, fasting is a form of
self-
discipline. For me
personally, even while I go about doing
my daily activities during a
fast, my
mind remains deeply
introspective and focused
inward. And that experience is
profoundly transformative for me.
My practice of fasting didn't come from
reading books, listening to
sermons, or following a tradition just
because my family happened to have
observed
it. It came from my own personal
experience. During my school
days, there was a movement inspired by
Mahatma Gandhi's
vision, his vision of cow protection.
The government had not enacted any laws
at the time. At the time, people across
the
country observed a one-day fast by
gathering in public places in silent
protests. We were just
kids, probably had just finished primary
school. Something inside me said, "I
should be part of this." And that was
the first time in my life I experienced
fasting. At such a young
age, I felt neither hunger nor any
desire for food. Instead, I felt a new
awareness, a surge of energy within
me. So, I became convinced that fasting
is a
science far beyond just skipping meals.
It is something far greater than that.
Then
gradually I refined my body and mind
through various
experiments. Over time it became a long
and disciplined journey for
me. And one thing is certain, fasting
never slows me
down. I work just as much as usual.
Sometimes I even work more.
And another fascinating thing I've
noticed is
that when I need to express my
thoughts, I'm amazed at where they come
from and how they flow.
Yeah. It's truly an incredible
experience. So you still do meetings
with world leaders. You still manage the
affairs of India. You still carry out
your role as a leader on the world
stage. all fasted and sometimes 9 days.
Well, this practice has a long
historical context. I hope it may be
interesting for those listening. There
is an ancient tradition in India called
shaturmas. During the monsoon season, we
know that the digestion tends to slow
down. And so in this
season, many people in India follow the
practice of eating only a single meal
within 24 hours. For me this starts
around mid
June and goes on until after Diwali
around
November for about 4 to 4 and 1/2
months. I follow this tradition of
eating only once in 24
hours. Then comes the Navatri festival
in India which usually falls in
September or October.
During this time the whole country
celebrates Dura Puja, a festival of
strength, devotion and spiritual
discipline. This lasts for 9 days.
During this time I completely abstained
from food and only drink hot water.
Although drinking hot water has always
been a part of my daily routine, my past
lifestyle was such that I naturally
developed this habit over time.
Then in March or
April, another navatri
occurs called chaitra
navatri. This year it will likely begin
around March
31st. During this 9-day fast, I eat only
one specific fruit once a day.
So for those nine days if let's say I
choose
papaya then for all nine days I won't
touch anything else just
papaya that too I eat only once a day
that's how I follow my 9-day fasting
routine so there are numerous fasts I
keep throughout the year and this has
become a deeply ingrained tradition in
my
life perhaps I can say that I've been
following these practices for 50 to 55
years. Has there been times when you met
with a world leader and uh completely
fasted? And maybe what do they think
about that? What do they think about
your ability to do that kind of thing?
And and you're right. I should mention
that uh from even my two days, my
ability to be present, my ability to
sense everything sharply focus on this
experience is elevated. But yes, is
there stories with the world leader that
maybe jumped to mind when you were
fasted? Well, most of the time I don't
even let people know about
it. It's my personal matter. So, I never
publicized it. But people gradually
started finding out. It became known
only after I became chief minister and
prime minister.
Otherwise, it was purely personal.
But now that it's out in the open, I
don't mind sharing. If someone asks, I
tell them so it might be useful to them
because it's not my personal property.
It's my experience. And if that can help
someone, why not share it? After all, my
life has always been devoted to the
well-being of others. For example, after
I became prime minister, I had a
bilateral
meeting at the White House with
President Obama and he had also arranged
a formal
dinner. Then as discussions between the
two governments progressed, someone
said, "Please join us for dinner." To
which another replied, "But the prime
minister doesn't
eat." This left them a bit concerned.
How do you host the leader of such a
major nation at the White House without
serving
food? When we sat down, they brought me
a glass of hot
water. I turned to President Obama and
jokingly said, "Look, my dinner has
arrived." As I placed the glass in front
of
me. Later, when I visited again, he
still
remembered. He smiled and said, "Last
time you were fasting. This time we're
having lunch. Since you're not fasting,
you'll have to eat twice as much.
Let's go to the beginning. You rose from
humble beginnings to lead the world's
largest democracy. So I think there's a
lot of people for whom this is truly
inspiring. Uh your family was of very
modest means and you grew up in a one
room house with a mud floor, your whole
family living there. Uh tell me about
your childhood. How did those humble
beginnings shape your outlook on
life? My birthplace is in
Gujarat, specifically in North Gujarat
in Masana
district in a small town called
Wnagar. Historically this town holds
great
significance. And so Bodnagar is where I
was born and completed my early
education. Looking at the
world as I understand it
today, I can reflect on my childhood and
the unique environment I grew up in.
My village had certain fascinating
aspects, some of which are quite rare
even globally.
When I was in
school, there was an elder in our
village who would
regularly tell students, "Listen kids,
wherever you go, if you
find a carved stone or you find a stone
with inscriptions on it or anything with
engravings, bring it and place it in
this corner of the
pool. Over time, my curiosity grew and I
started to understand. I realized that
my village had a rich and ancient
history. Discussions at school often
revealed more fascinating details about
its
past. Later, I learned that China even
made a film about it. I had read in a
newspaper about a film that mentioned
the Chinese philosopher Huan Tang who
had spent a considerable amount of time
in my
village having arrived there many
centuries
ago. Back then it was a major center for
Buddhist
learning. That's how I first learned
about it.
And
perhaps
around the
1400s, it was a prominent Buddhist
educational
hub. There was a victory monument from
the 12th
century, a temple from the 17th
century. And in the 16th century, two
sisters Tana and Riri who
were renowned
musicians. As I uncovered these history
traces, I grasped the depth of our
heritage. So when I became chief
minister, I initiated large scale
excavation
projects. The findings from these very
projects
confirmed that thousands of Buddhist
monks had at one time studied there.
It was a place where Buddhist, Jane and
Hindu traditions coexisted
harmoniously.
And for us, history wasn't just confined
to
books. Every stone
spoke. Every wall had a story to tell.
And
so when we began the large scale
excavation
work, we uncovered findings that hold
immense historical
significance. So far they have
discovered evidence dating back 2,800
years, proving
that this city has remained unbroken and
eternal for all those 2,800 years. They
have discovered solid proof of how its
development unfolded over these
centuries. Now an international level
museum has been established there open
to
visitors especially for archaeology
students. It has become a major area of
study. So the place where I was born
holds its own unique historical
significance. I see it as my good
fortune. Some things in life unfold
beyond our understanding. Kashi became
my realm of duty. Now Kashi is also
eternal. Kashi also known as Banaras or
Baranasi is an eternal city that
has remained vibrant and alive for
centuries.
Perhaps it was some divine design that
led a boy born in Wagar to eventually
make Kashi his realm of duty living in
the embrace of mother
Ganga. When I think about my family, my
father, my mother, my siblings, my
uncles, aunts,
grandparents, we all grew up together in
a small house.
The place we lived was likely even
smaller than where we are sitting
now. There was no window, just a small
door. That's where I was born. That's
where I grew
up. Now when people talk about
poverty, it's natural to discuss it in
the context of public life. And by those
standards, my early life was spent in
extreme
poverty. But we
never really felt the burden of
poverty. You see, someone who is used to
wearing fine
shoes will feel their
absence when they don't have them. But
for us, we had never worn shoes in our
lives. So, how would we even know that
wearing shoes was a big deal? We weren't
in a position to compare. That's just
how we lived. Our mother worked
incredibly
hard. My father,
too. He was extremely
hardworking and he was also extremely
disciplined.
Every morning around 4:00 or 4:30 a.m.
he would leave the house, walk long
distances, visit several temples, and
then reach his
shop. He wore traditional leather shoes
handmade in the
village. The shoes were very tough and
sturdy, making a distinct talk talk
sound when he walked.
People in the village used to
say that they could tell the time just
by hearing his footsteps. Oh yes, they
would
say Mr. Dhamodar is on his way. Such was
his
discipline. He worked tirelessly late
into the night. Our mother too ensured
that we never felt the struggles of our
circumstances.
But despite
everything, these challenging
circumstances of living in
scarcity never left a mark on our
minds. I remember in school the idea of
wearing shoes never even crossed my
mind. One day while I was on my way to
school, I ran into my uncle on the
way. He saw me and was surprised.
Hey, you go to school like this without
shoes. So at that time he bought me a
pair of canvas shoes and made me wear
them. Back then they must have cost
around 10 or 12
rupees.
But here's the
thing. They were white canvas shoes and
they would quickly get stained. So what
did I
do in the
evening after school was over? I would
stay back for a
while. I would go from classroom to
classroom collecting leftover pieces of
chalk that the teachers had discarded.
I would take the pieces of chalk
home, soak them in
water, mix them into a paste, and polish
my canvas shoes with it, making them
bright white
again. For me, those shoes were a
treasured possession, a symbol of great
wealth. And I don't exactly know why,
but from
childhood, our mother was extremely
particular about
cleanliness. Perhaps that's where we
inherited that habit,
too. Not sure how I picked up the habit
of dressing neatly, but it's been there
since childhood. Whatever I wore, I made
sure it looked
proper. Back then, as you can imagine,
we didn't have any arrangements for
ironing
clothes. So, instead, I would heat up
water in a copper
pot, hold it with tongs, and press my
clothes myself.
Then I'd head off to school. That's how
I lived. And I found joy in it. We never
thought about being poor or judged about
how others lived or what their struggles
were. We lived
carefree, enjoying whatever little we
had and kept working hard. Never once
did we complain about these things. And
all these aspects of my life whether you
call it fortune or
misfortune unfolded in such a way in
politics that they started coming to
light because when I was taking my oath
as chief
minister TV reporters went to my village
questioned my childhood friends went to
capture videos of my home that's when
people started asking who is this and
what background he is coming from.
Before that, very few knew much about my
life. That's just how my journey has
been. My mother possessed an innate
spirit of caring for others
well-being. It was woven into the very
fabric of her
being. She possessed knowledge of
traditional remedies and healing
practices and would treat children with
these home remedies. Every morning
before sunrise around 5:00 she would
start treating
them. So all the children and their
parents would gather at our home little
children crying and we had to wake up
early because of
it. Meanwhile, my mother would continue
treating them with care. This spirit of
service in a way was nurtured through
these experiences. A sense of empathy
for society, the desire to do good for
others. These values were instilled in
me from my
family. I believe that my life has been
shaped by my mother, my father, my
teachers, and the environment I grew up
in. There's a lot of young people
listening to this that are truly
inspired by your story. from those
humble beginnings to the leader of the
biggest democracy in the world. Uh what
can you tell to those young folks who
are struggling, who are lost in the
world, who are trying to find their way?
What advice could you give them? I want
to tell all the young people the
following. No matter
How dark the night may
seem, it is still just
night and morning is bound to
come. That's
why we need patience and
self-confidence. Yes, the challenges are
real, but I am not defined by my
circumstances.
I am here for a purpose sent by a higher
power and I am not alone. The one who
sent me is always with me. This
unwavering faith should always remain
within us. Difficulties are a test of
endurance. They are not meant to defeat
me. Hardships exist to make me stronger,
helping me grow and improve, not to
leave me feeling hopeless or
discouraged.
Personally, I see every crisis, every
challenge as an opportunity. So to all
young people, I say have patience. There
are no shortcuts in life. At our railway
stations, there hangs a
sign. For those who habitually cross the
tracks instead of using the bridge, it
reads, "Shortcut will cut you short." I
would tell young people the same.
Shortcut will cut you short. There are
no shortcuts in life. Patience and
perseverance are
essential. Whatever responsibility we
are given, we must pour our heart into
it. We should live it with passion,
enjoy the journey and find fulfillment
in it. I truly believe that if this
mindset is cultivated, it transforms
life. Similarly, abundance alone is not
enough. There is no guarantee of
success. Even a wealthy person who
indulges in comfort and idleness will
eventually wither away. Instead, he must
decide, "Yes, I may have resources
around me, but I must use my abilities
to grow them
further. I must contribute more to
society with my own strength. Even if I
am in a good position, there is still so
much more to do. Even if I am not in a
good position, there is still so much
work to do. That's what I believe. I
have also noticed that some people tend
to think I've learned enough that's
it. But one should never let the student
within them
die. Learning should never stop. I
believe that as long as I am alive, I
must have a
purpose. Perhaps I
exist to keep learning, to keep
growing. Now my mother
tongue is
Gujarati
and
we were not very familiar with the Hindi
language. Nor did we know how to speak
it eloquently or communicate
effectively.
But as a child I used to sit at my
father's tea shop and at that young age
I got the chance to meet so many
people and every time I learned
something from them I observed their
ways of speaking their expressions these
things taught me a lot even though I
wasn't in a position to apply it then I
thought if I ever get the chance why not
why shouldn't I present myself well so I
believe the desire to learn should
always remain
alive. And
um another thing I've observed is that
most
people dream about achieving
something or becoming someone. They set
big
targets and when they fall
short they feel
disappointed. That's why
Whenever I get a chance to talk to my
friends, I tell
them instead of dreaming about getting
and becoming, dream of doing
something, if you focus on doing
something and let's say your goal is to
reach 10, but you make it to eight, you
won't feel discouraged. You'll still
work toward 10 with determination.
But if your dream is only to become
something and it doesn't happen, even
your achievements may feel like a
burden. That's why we must adjust our
mindset in life. Instead of thinking
about what I got or didn't get, the
mindset should be what can I
give? Because true contentment doesn't
bloom on its
own. It grows from the depth of what you
give.
And I should say that this young kid,
one of the things I dreamed of doing is
to do this very thing to talk to you
today. So this is uh very surreal. At
17, another fascinating part of your
life. You left home and spent two years
roaming in the Himalayas searching for
purpose, for deeper truth, for God. Uh
so not much is known about this period
of your life. You lived a nomatic
minimalist existence very much like a
yogi often sleeping without a roof over
your head. Uh what are some memorable
spiritual moments, rituals, experiences
from that
time? It seems like you've put in a lot
of effort.
Look,
I look I don't usually talk much about
this but I can share a few external
aspects of
it. I grew up in a very small
town. Our life was all about being part
of a
community. We lived among people
surrounded by them. That was just how
life
was. There was a library in the village
and I used to go there often to read
books. Whenever I read something from
the books, I often found myself feeling
inspired
thinking why shouldn't I shape my own
life like that? That desire was always
there. When I used to read about Swami
Viveanandha or read about Chhatrapati
Shivaji Maharaj, I would often wonder
how did they live? How did they build
such remarkable lives? And for that I
constantly experimented on
myself. Most of my experiments were
physical in nature, testing my body's
limits.
For example, where I lived, winters
weren't too harsh, but December nights
could get quite
cold,
but
still at
night the cold would bite. It was
natural.
So
sometimes I would decide to sleep
outside in the open with nothing to
cover myself just to see how my body
endures the cold. So from a very young
age I would often experiment with my
body and uh this became a regular thing
for me.
For
me, going to the
library, reading
extensively, visiting the
pond, washing the family's clothes, and
swimming became part of my routine.
Swimming was my main physical
activity. All of these things were
deeply connected to my
life. Later, as I read Viveanand, I
became even more drawn to his teachings.
One time I read about Swami
Viveanand his mother was
ill.
So he went to Sri Ram Krishna Paramahans
for
guidance he would argue with him debate
with
him. In his early
days, he would often argue with
him, questioning everything
intellectually. He said, "My mother is
sick. If I were earning, I could take
better care of
her." Sri Ram Krishna said, "Don't
bother me with all this. Go to Goddess
Kali. She is there. Ask her for what you
need. And
so Swami Viveanand went and sat before
Goddess Kali's idol for hours and he
immersed
himself into deep
meditation. After a few hours when he
returned Ramach Krishna asked him, "So
did you request the goddess?" Swami
Vivean replied, "No, I didn't." Ramach
Krishna said go again
tomorrow. She will fulfill your request.
Ask her. He went the next day and then
again the day
after. But each
time he found
himself unable to ask for anything. His
mother was unwell and he needed help.
But when he sat before goddess Kali, he
was completely absorbed in her
presence. And yet he could not bring
himself to ask for anything. Each time
he returned empty-handed. He told Sri
Ramak Krishna, "I came back
empty-handed. I didn't ask for
anything." To stand before the divine
goddess and not be able to ask for
anything.
That moment, that experience lit a flame
inside
him. There was a spark in his
life and from
that came the spirit of
giving. I believe that perhaps
on me
too. The thought of what can I give to
the
world? Maybe true contentment comes from
giving. If my heart is only filled with
the hunger to receive, that hunger will
never
end. And within that realization came
the idea of Shiva and living being as
one.
If you wish to serve Shiva, serve all
living
beings, recognize the unity between the
divine and the living. True non-duality
is experienced through this
realization. I would often lose myself
in such
thoughts. My mind naturally drifting in
that direction.
I remember an
incident in the neighborhood where we
lived just
outside. There was a Lord Shiva
temple. One day a saint came to stay
there. So that saint used to engage
in meditation and spiritual practices. I
started feeling drawn to him thinking
perhaps he possessed some spiritual
energy. I had only read about Swami
Viveanand never seen such figures in
real
life. During Navatri he was fasting and
he had placed sorghum grains on his
hand. A common tradition in our
culture in a way sprouting seeds on your
palms and sleeping like that for 9 or 10
days. It was a kind of spiritual bow and
this saint was observing it during those
same days.
My maternal uncle's family was preparing
for my aunt's wedding. Everyone from my
home was going to my uncle's house for
the
wedding. Now for any child, visiting an
uncle's house is always exciting. But I
told my family, I'm not going. I'll stay
here and I will take care of Swami G.
Since he has these grains on his hand,
he can't eat or drink. So I will take
care of him. So as a child, I chose not
to attend the wedding. I stayed back
serving Swami G instead. Somehow my mind
was naturally drawn in that
direction. At times whenever soldiers
from my village came home during their
holidays, they would walk around in
their uniforms with such pride. I would
run behind them all day thinking, "Look
at them. They are serving the nation."
So there was always a strong feeling
inside me to do something meaningful. I
didn't fully understand what it would
be and I didn't have a road map. There
was a hunger within me, a deep longing
to understand life, to explore its
meaning. So I just set out and began the
journey. During my time in the
mission, I came across remarkable
saints. They showered me with love and
blessings. Among them, I formed a
special bond with Swami Atmastan G. He
lived for nearly 100 years a life full
of wisdom and service. In his final
years, I deeply wished for him to stay
with me at the prime minister's
residence. But his responsibilities were
vast and he couldn't come. However, back
when I was chief minister, he used to
visit and I was fortunate to receive his
blessings and guidance. He once looked
at me and
said, "Why have you come here? You have
a greater purpose to
fulfill. Is your priority your own
well-being or is it the welfare of
society? Whatever Swami Viveanandan said
was for the betterment of
society. He said you are meant to serve
others. So
I I remember feeling a bit disheartened
at that moment. I had come seeking
guidance but all I got were words.
So I continued on my journey wandering
from place to place. I spent time in the
Himalayas embracing the solitude of the
mountains. I met many remarkable
individuals along the way. Some were
great aesthetics, people who had
renounced
everything. But still my mind remained
restless. Perhaps it was my age of
curiosity of wanting to learn to
understand.
It was a new
experience, a world shaped by the
mountains, by ice, by the towering
snow-covered peaks. But all of this
played a huge role in shaping
me. It strengthened me from within and
enabled me to discover my inner power.
practicing meditation, waking up in the
sacred pre-dawn hours, bathing in the
cold, serving people with devotion and
naturally tending to elderly saints
became a seamless part of who I
was. Once a natural calamity struck the
region, and I immediately devoted myself
to helping the villages. So these were
the saints and spiritual masters with
whom I stayed from time to time.
I never remained in one place for long.
I kept moving, constantly
wandering. That was the kind of life I
lived. And for people who don't know
that moment in the Ramach Krishna
mission ashram with uh with the monk
Swami Admashananda as you mentioned, he
helped steer you towards a life of
service. So there's another possible
life that could have been where you take
Syasa, you give away everything and
you're a monk. So we could have had a
monk Narendra Modi and a prime minister
Narendra Modi and he helped you take the
decision to live a life of service at
every
scale. From the outside people may call
me a leader, some call me the prime
minister, others call me the chief
minister. And that's how they see me
from their
perspective. But deep within there is
only an unwavering spiritual
commitment. The Modi who lovingly helped
his mother care for children during
their treatments, tending to them with
patience and compassion.
The Modi who wandered through the
Himalayas and the Modi who now works
from this seat of
responsibility. They are all tied
together by the same inner
consistency. Every action is dedicated
to serving
others. People may see a stark
difference between a saint and a leader,
but to me there is no real difference.
Yes, the attire changes, the way of life
changes, the words spoken throughout the
day shift and the nature of work
evolves, but the core of my being
remains unchanged. Carrying out every
responsibility with the same sense of
calm focus and dedication. Another part
of your life of who you are is you've
spoken your whole life about putting
your nation of India above all else.
When you were eight, you joined the RSS
which espouses the idea of Hindu
nationalism. Can you tell me about RSS
and what impact they had
on who you are and the development of
your political
ideas? Ever since
childhood, I always had the habit of
staying engaged in something or the
other. I remember there was a man named
Makoshi.
I don't quite recall his full name. I
think he was part of the service group
Makoshi Sony or something like
that. He used to carry a small drumlike
instrument called the tambourine with
him. And he used to sing patriotic songs
in his deep powerful voice. Whenever he
came to our village, he would hold
programs in different places. I would
run after him like a crazy fan just to
listen to his songs.
I would spend entire nights listening to
their patriotic songs. I enjoyed it. I
don't even know why, but I just did. In
our village, there was a branch of the
Rashtria sang where we played sports and
sang patriotic songs. Something about
those songs touched me deeply. They
stirred something inside me and that's
how I eventually became part of the RSS.
One of the core values that were
instilled in us at RSS
was whatever you do, do it with a
purpose. Even while studying, study with
the goal of learning enough to
contribute to the
nation. Even when you exercise, do it
with the purpose of strengthening your
body to serve the nation. This is what
we were taught. And today, RSS is a
massive organization. It is now nearing
its 100th anniversary.
Such a massive volunteer
organization likely
doesn't exist anywhere else in the
world. Millions of people are connected
to
it. But understanding
RSS is not that
simple. One must make an effort to truly
grasp the nature of its
work. More than
anything, the RSS provides you with a
clear direction toward what can truly be
called a purpose in
life. Secondly, the nation is
everything and serving the people is
akin to serving God. This is what has
been said since the Vic era. What our
sages have said, what Vivean said and
what the RSS
echoes. A volunteer is told that the
inspiration he gains from
RSS, it's not just about attending the
one-hour session or wearing the uniform.
What matters is what you do for society.
And today, inspired by that spirit, many
initiatives are thriving. Like some
volunteers established an organization
called
Savaharti. This organization serves the
slums and settlements where the poorest
people live, which they call service
communities.
To my
knowledge, they run
approximately 125,000 service projects
without any government
assistance solely through community
support. They spend time
there, teach the children, care for
their health, instill good
values, and work towards improving
cleanliness in these communities.
Running 125,000 social service projects
is no small feat.
Similarly, some volunteers nurtured by
RSS are dedicated to serving tribal
communities through Vanvasi Kalyan
Asham. They live among the tribal
people working for their welfare. They
have established over 70,000 one teacher
schools in remote tribal regions. There
are also some people in America who show
their support for this cause.
and contribute donations of about $10 or
$15. And they say skip a Coca-Cola this
month. Don't drink Coca-Cola and donate
that money to an one teacher school
instead. Now imagine 70,000 one teacher
schools dedicated to educating tribal
children. Some volunteers have founded
Bidyabharati to revolutionize education.
Today they run nearly 25,000
schools educating around 3 million
students and I believe that millions of
students have benefited from this
initiative receiving quality education
at an incredibly low
cost. Alongside education values are
prioritized and students remain grounded
learning skills so they don't become a
burden on society. That is in every
aspect of life whether it's women, youth
or even laborers the RSS has played a
role in terms of membership size if I
may say so. We have the Indian labor
union it has
around
50,000
unions with millions of members across
the country. Perhaps in terms of scale
there is no bigger labor union in the
world. But what's interesting is the
approach they
take.
Historically, leftist ideologies have
fueled labor movements
worldwide. And what has been their
slogan? Workers of the world, unite. The
message was clear. Unite first and then
we'll deal with everything else. But
what do the labor unions run by RSS
trained volunteers believe in?
They say workers unite the
world. Others
say workers of the world unite. And we
say workers unite the
world. It may seem like just a small
shift in words, but it represents a huge
ideological transformation. The
volunteers who come from the
RSS follow their own interests, nature,
and inclination.
And in doing so, they strengthen and
promote these kinds of activities. When
you observe these
initiatives, you'll see how over the
past 100 years, the
RSS has dedicated
itself with the discipline and devotion
of a
seeker, staying away from the glare of
mainstream attention. I feel blessed to
gain life's values from such a sacred
organization. Through the RSS, I found a
life of
purpose. Then I was fortunate to spend
some time among the saints which gave me
a strong spiritual foundation. I found
discipline and a life of purpose and
through the guidance of saints I gained
spiritual grounding. Swami
Atmastanandanda and others like him have
held my hand throughout my journey
constantly guiding me at every step. The
teachings
of Ramach Krishna Mishan Swami
Viveanand and the servicedriven
philosophy of the RSS have played a
crucial role in shaping
me. But they've also helped push the
idea of India. What is the idea
uh that unifies India? What is India as
a nation? What is the foundational idea
that unites all of these
desperate worlds and communities and
cultures? What would it
be?
Look, India is a cultural
identity. It is a civilization.
that dates back thousands of
years. Consider the vastness of
India. Over a 100
languages, thousands of dialects.
India is so diverse that we have a
saying that every 20 miles the language
changes, customs change, cuisine
changes, even clothing styles shift from
region to region, from the south to the
north. You will see immense diversity
across the country. But if you dig a
little
deeper, you will
find a common thread. For example, the
stories of Lord Ram can be heard
everywhere in India. His name echoes in
every corner of the country. But if you
look
closely from Tamil Nadu to Jammu and
Kashmir, you will always find people
whose names include Ram in some
form. In Gujarat, he might be called
Ramay. in Tamil Nadu
Ramachandra and in Maharashtra Ram
Bhau. This unique cultural bond is what
unites India as one
civilization. Takes
something as simple
as bathing in
water. We have a
ritual where all the rivers of India are
remembered.
They chant I am bathing with the waters
of all these rivers Ganga Yamuna
Godavari
Saraswati Narmmad Synindhu Caviri it's a
sentiment that unites a nation and we
have a long tradition of making such
resolutions at the beginning of
important events and
rituals and the resolution itself can
present a historical
record and in so doing serve as a way of
collecting and preserving historical
data. It has been an incredibly unique
system guided meticulously by our
scriptures. When someone makes a
resolution, performs a puja or even
during weddings, we start by invoking
the entire universe beginning with jambu
bat
kandry and gradually narrow it down to
the village then mentioning the specific
family and finally we invoke the family
deity. This practice is still alive
happening daily in every corner of
India.
But sadly the western and global models
began viewing
nations only as administrative systems.
India however has had a variety of
administrative systems throughout
history. Many systems were fragmented,
scattered and varied across regions.
Kings and rulers were numerous. But
India's unity
lay in cultural bonds. Pilgrimage
traditions played a key role in
preserving this unity. Shankarachara
established the four pilgrimage sites.
Even today millions of people travel
from one place to another for
pilgrimage. In Kashi you'll find people
who bring water from Ramsheshwaram to
Kashi and take water from Kashi to
Ramshwaram. Even if
you look at our Hindu calendar, you'll
find so many things across the country
that you can't even
imagine. If we look at the historical
foundation of modern
India along with yourself, Mahatma
Gandhi is one of the most important
humans to
have ever lived but certainly one of the
most important humans to the history of
India.
What do you admire about Mahatma
Gandhi? As I had mentioned
before, I was born in
Gujarat and Gujarati is my mother
tongue. Mahatma Gandhi was also born in
Gujarat. His native language was
Gujarati
too. He pursued a career as an
attorney and lived overseas for several
years. He had plenty of great
opportunities.
But the deep sense of duty within
him along with the values instilled by
his family led him to give up all
comforts and devote his life to serving
the people of India. He joined the
struggle for India's
independence. And to this
day he continues to deeply
influence the life of every Indian in
some way.
Mahatma Gandhi tried
to live by his principles and practiced
what he preached. For
example, he strongly advocated for
cleanliness and practiced it
himself. And he made it a point to
discuss cleanliness wherever he went.
Another key factor to consider is
India's fight for
independence.
India was ruled by the
muggles. the British and several other
foreign
powers. Despite being bound by the
shackles of colonial rule for
centuries, the flame of independence
burned
brightly. In every corner and nook of
India, never fading, always fueling the
desire for freedom.
Millions of people sacrificed their
lives so the light of freedom could
shine on India. They laid down their
lives for freedom. Sacrificing their
youth behind prison
walls. Mahatma Gandhi also fought for
India's independence but in his own way.
Indeed the other freedom fighters were
brave warriors and devoted sons of
mother India. They came, they fought and
their martyrdom immortalized them and
they did indeed have a lasting impact.
But it was Mahatma Gandhi who awakened a
nation leading a mass movement fueled by
truth. And he wo even a sweeper into the
very fabric of the freedom struggle. He
told teachers their work was part of the
freedom struggle. He told the people
spinning thread and weaving clothes they
were freedom fighters.
He told those tending to lepers that
their service was a step toward India's
freedom. He viewed every task as a vital
thread in the fabric of India's
independence movement. And this
transformed India's common man into a
soldier in the quest for
freedom. Gandhi forged a mass movement
so immense that the British could never
fully grasp it.
The British never imagined that a pinch
of salt from the Dandy March could spark
a massive revolution and he made it
happen. And his life, presence, style,
mannerisms all left a profound
impact and I have
seen many of his stories evolve into
timeless legends. I recall an incident
from a roundt
conference. Yeah. I believe he was
attending
a roundt
conference. He was supposed to meet King
George at the Buckingham
Palace draped in his breachcloth.
Mahatma Gandhi made his way to the
palace. Many people were amazed that he
had showed up in that attire to meet the
king.
Gandhi remarked he didn't need to wear a
lot of clothes. He said your king is
wearing enough clothes for the both of
us. This was the whimsical charm of his
nature. Mahatma Gandhi possessed many
remarkable qualities. His call for
unity and recognition
of the people's
strength still resonates with me. In
everything I
do, I strive to include the common
man and to ensure the participation of
as many as
possible. I don't believe in leaving
everything to the government.
I am a firm believer in the power of
social
change. So
he was probably one of the greatest
leaders of the 20th
century. You are one of the greatest
leaders of the 21st
century. Those two centuries are very
different. and you have
been
masterful in uh the game in the art of
geopolitics. So let me ask you, you have
found a balance. So when when
negotiating on the world stage with
super powerful
nations, is it better to be loved or
feared? It seems like you are a
masterclass of being loved by everybody,
but everybody knows and feels the
strength. So finding that balance, can
you speak to that
balance? First and
foremost, I don't think this is a fair
comparison.
Mahatma Gandhi
wasn't just
a 20th century
leader. His relevance transcends
centuries. Mahatma Gandhi's
legacy will last for centuries to come
and he remains relevant to date. As far
as I am concerned, I have a
responsibility to
fulfill. Yet the weight of that
responsibility pales in comparison to my
country. I am nowhere near as great as
my
country. And my strength lies not in my
name but in the backing of 1.4 billion
Indians and thousands of years of
timeless culture and
heritage. So wherever I go, I carry with
me the essence of thousands of years of
Vic tradition.
The timeless teachings of Swami
Viveanand and the
blessings, dreams and aspirations of 1.4
billion
Indians. When I shake hands with a world
leader, it's not
Modi but 1.4 billion Indians doing so.
So this isn't my strength at all. It is
rather the strength of India.
You see, I recall something that
happened all the way back in
2013. It was when my party declared I
would be their prime ministerial
candidate. My critics often tried to
corner me on one
point. It became a topic of widespread
discussion. Modi is nothing more than a
state
leader. What does he know of foreign
policy? Does he even understand global
geopolitics? This was on everyone's lips
and I was asked this question in every
interview. I gave a very well thoughtout
answer at the time. I said I won't lay
out my entire foreign policy in an
interview nor is it needed.
That
said, India
will neither allow itself to be looked
down
upon nor will it ever look up to
anyone. India will now see eye to eye
with her
counterparts. This was my belief in
2013 and it still lies at the heart of
my foreign policy. For me, the country
always comes first.
However, to belittle someone or speaking
ill of
others is neither part of my cultural
values nor my
traditions. Moreover, our culture
upholds and advocates for the welfare of
mankind. India has always championed the
ideas of global peace and brotherhood.
For centuries, we have envisioned the
world as one big family. Our noble
ancestors envisaged the welfare of the
whole world and
universe. And that's why you must have
noticed the nature of our conversations
as well as the ideas that I have
presented on the global stage which are
rooted in respect and
positivity. For example, I spoke about
the environment in one of my speeches. I
proposed the concept of one sun, one
world, one
grid. During the COVID pandemic, I
delivered a speech at the G20
summit. I put forth the
vision of one health where humans and
nature would live in harmony. And I have
always worked towards this.
We hosted the G20 summit with the motto,
one earth, one family, one
future. We have inherited this timeless
wisdom and it's our duty to share it
with the world. To give you an example,
I have advocated for embracing renewable
energy. We founded the International
Solar Alliance with the motto one sun,
one world, one grid. Even when it comes
to global healthcare, I had proposed one
earth, one health.
This
initiative extends not only
to humans but also to all flora and
fauna. I have always aimed
to initiate efforts that foster global
well-being and the global community
needs to join hands to accomplish that.
We must also understand that the world
has become one small village
today. No country can thrive in
isolation. Today we all depend upon one
another. No one can make it far by
themselves. That is why you must learn
to synchronize with everyone. And
everyone else must learn to synchronize
with you. That's the only way to propel
this initiative forward. Organizations
like the United Nations came into being
after the first world war.
But they failed to evolve with the
times. And this
inability to adapt has sparked a global
debate on their
relevance. You have spoken about, you
have the experience, you have the skill,
you have the geopolitical leverage to be
the biggest peacemaker in the world
today on the world stage and there's
several wars going on.
Can you maybe explain how you approach
the process of making
peace, helping make peace between two
waring nations, for example, Russia and
Ukraine? Well, I represent the country
that is the
land of Lord Buddha.
I represent the country that
is the land of Mahatma Gandhi. These are
the great souls whose
teachings, words, actions and behavior
are entirely dedicated to
peace. And that is
why culturally and
historically our background is so
strong that whenever we speak of peace
the world listens to
us because India is the land of Gautam
Buddha and Mahatma Gandhi and
Indians aren't hardwired to espouse
strife and conflict.
We espouse harmony
instead. We seek neither to wage war
against nature nor to foster strife
among nations. We stand for peace and
wherever we can act as peacemakers, we
have gladly embraced that
responsibility. Returning to your
example, I have a close relationship
with Russia and Ukraine alike.
I can sit with President Putin and say
that this is not the time for
war. And I can also tell President
Zalinski in a friendly
way that brother regardless of how many
people stand with you in the
world. There will never be a resolution
on the battlefield.
The resolution will only
come when both Ukraine and
Russia come to the negotiating table.
Ukraine may hold countless discussions
with their allies, but it will bear no
fruit. Discussions must include both
parties instead.
Initially it was challenging to find
peace but
now the current situation presents an
opportunity for meaningful and
productive talks between Ukraine and
Russia. There has been a lot of
suffering. Even the global south has
suffered. The world has been grappling
with a food, fuel and fertilizer crisis.
So the global community should unite in
the pursuit of peace.
As for me, I have always maintained that
I stand with peace. I am not neutral. I
have a stance and that is peace and
peace is what I strive
for. Another difficult historic
uh relationship and conflict is between
India and
Pakistan. So it's one of the most tense
conflicts in the world. Two nuclear
powers with strong ideological
differences.
You are a great
peacemaker looking out into the future
as a visionary. What do you see as the
path for friendship, for peace, for good
relations between India and
Pakistan? I would like
to delve into periods of our history the
world may be unfamiliar
with. Before 1947, during the struggle
for
independence, everyone was fighting side
by side, shouldertosh
shoulder, and the nation was eagerly
waiting to celebrate the freedom, the
joy of independence.
Now we could have a lengthy discussion
on what led to the events that
unfolded but the fact remains that the
policy makers of the time agreed to
India's
partition and they agreed to the Muslim
side's demand of carving out a separate
nation with hearts weighed down by grief
and silent
tears Indians
embraced this painful
reality. However, what
unfolded was an immediate heartbreaking
saga of
bloodshed. Trains filled with blooded,
wounded people and corpses started
arriving from
Pakistan. It was a harrowing
sight. After getting their own way, we
expected them to live and let live. And
yet they chose not to foster a
harmonious coexistence. Time and again
they decided to be at odds with India.
They have waged a proxy war against us.
Don't mistake this for
ideology. What kind of ideology thrives
on bloodshed and the export of terror?
And we are not the sole victims of this
menace. Wherever terror strikes in the
world, the trail somehow leads
[Music]
to
Pakistan. Let's take the September 11th
attacks for
example. The main mastermind behind it,
Osama bin Laden. Where did he eventually
emerge from? He had taken refuge in
Pakistan. The world has recognized
that in a way terrorism and the
terrorist mindset are deeply rooted in
Pakistan.
Today it stands as an epicenter of
turmoil not just for India but for the
world and we have repeatedly asked them
what good can come from this path. We
have urged them to abandon the path of
state sponsored
terrorism for good. What do you hope to
gain by surrendering your nation to
lawless forces? I even personally
traveled to Lahore in the pursuit of
peace. When I became prime
minister, I specially invited Pakistan
to my swearing in ceremony so we could
turn over a new leaf. Yet every noble
attempt at fostering peace was met with
hostility and betrayal.
We sincerely hope that wisdom prevails
upon them and they choose the path of
peace. I believe even the people of
Pakistan long for peace because even
they must be weary of living in strife
and unrest. They must have grown weary
of relentless terror where even innocent
children are killed and countless lives
are destroyed.
Is there
some memorable stories from your past
attempts to try to improve relations
with Pakistan that could uh guide the
path forward into the future? Like I
mentioned, my first attempt at improving
bilateral relations
was when I invited my Pakistani
counterpart to my swearing
in. It was a gesture of goodwill. It was
a diplomatic gesture unlike any in
decades. The very people who once
questioned my approach to foreign
policy were taken aback when they
learned I had invited all sark heads of
state and our then
president Mr. Pranab
Mukharji beautifully
captured that historic gesture in his
memoir. This was a testament to how
clear and
confident India's foreign policy had
become. This sent a clear message to the
world about India's commitment to peace
and
harmony. But we didn't get the desired
outcome.
Maybe to ask a little bit of a lighter
question. Uh who has the better cricket
team, India or
Pakistan? The two teams have a uh epic
rivalry on the pitch and more seriously
given the geopolitical tensions that you
spoke to. Uh what role do sports and
cricket and football
play in fostering better relations?
I think sports
have the
power to energize the entire world. The
spirit of sports brings people together
across different
nations. That's why I would never want
to see sports being
discredited. I truly
believe that sports play a major role in
human evolution. They're not just games.
They connect people on a deeper
level. Now coming to the question of
who's better and who's
not when it comes to techniques in
sports, I'm not an expert. Only those
who specialize in the technical aspects
can judge which techniques are superior
and who the best players really are. But
sometimes the results speak for
themselves. Just a few days ago, India
and Pakistan played a
match. The result reveals which is the
better team. That's how we
know. Yeah. I've I've watched the series
called the greatest rivalry, India
versus Pakistan that describes so many
incredible players, so many incredible
games. It's it's always beautiful to see
a great rivalry. Uh you've also uh
spoken about football. Football is very
popular in India. So, another tough
question. Who is the greatest football
player of all time? We got Messi, Pelle,
Maradona, Cristiano Ronaldo, Zidane. Who
do you think is the
greatest football player to have ever
played? It's absolutely true that many
regions in India have a strong football
culture. Our women's football team is
performing really well and the men's
team is also making great progress. But
if we talk about the past, back in the
1980s, one name that always stood out
was
Maradona. For that generation, he was
seen as a true
hero. And if you ask today's generation,
they'll immediately mention Messi. Now
that you've asked, another interesting
memory just came to mind.
There's a state in India called Madhya
Pradesh. Right in the center, there's a
district called Shadal, a completely
tribal region where a large tribal
community resides. I really enjoy
interacting with people from such
communities, especially the self-help
groups run by tribal women. So, I
decided to visit them and have a
conversation. But when I got there, I
noticed something fascinating. around 80
to 100 young boys, kids, and
even some older youth, all dressed in
sports uniforms standing together.
Naturally, I walked over to them. So, I
asked them, "Where are you all from?"
And they replied, "We're from Mini
Brazil." I was surprised and said, "What
do you mean by mini Brazil?" They said,
"That's what people call our village."
Curious, I asked, "Why do they call it
mini Brazil?" They
explained in our village football has
been played for four
generations. Nearly 80 national level
players have come from
here. Our entire village is dedicated to
football. They also told me when we host
our annual football match nearly 20 to
25,000 spectators come from nearby
villages to watch. I see the growing
craze for football in India these days
as a positive sign because it not only
fuels passion but also builds true team
spirit. Yeah, football is one of the
great sports that unites not just India
the the whole world and that that just
shows the power of what sport can do.
You recently visited the United
States and uh reinvigorated your
friendship with uh Donald Trump. What do
you like about Donald Trump as a friend,
as a leader? I'd like to share with you
an event that stands out in my memory.
Perhaps from that you'll
get a better understanding of the point
I'm trying to convey. For example, we
had an event in Houston.
Howdy
Modi. Both President Trump and I were
there and the entire stadium was
completely packed. A massive crowd at an
event in the US is a huge moment. While
packed stadiums are common in sports,
this was extraordinary for a political
rally. The Indian diaspora had gathered
in large
numbers. Both of us delivered speeches
and he sat down below listening to me
speak. Now that's his humility. the
president of the United States sitting
in the audience while I spoke from the
stage. That was a remarkable gesture on
his part. After finishing my speech, I
stepped down and as we all know,
security in the US is extremely
strict and uh thorough. The level of
scrutiny there is on a completely
different level. I went over to thank
him and casually said, "If you don't
mind, why don't we take a lap around the
stadium? There are so many people here.
Let's walk, wave, and greet
them." In American life, it's almost
impossible for the president to walk
into a crowd of thousands.
But without even a moment's hesitation,
he agreed and started
walking with me. His entire security
detail was thrown off guard. But for me,
that moment was truly touching. It
showed me that this man had
courage. He makes his own decisions, but
also he trusted me and my lead in that
moment enough to have walked with me
into the
crowd. It was that sense of mutual
trust, a strong bond between us that I
truly witnessed on that day. And the way
I saw President Trump that day walking
into
a crowd of thousands without even asking
security was truly amazing. And if you
watch the video now, you'll be amazed.
When he was shot during the recent
campaign, I saw the same resilient and
determined
President
Trump, the one who walked hand in hand
with me in that
stadium. Even after being shot, he
remained unwaveringly dedicated to
America. His life was for his nation.
His reflection showed his America first
spirit. Just as I believe in nation
first, I stand for India first. And
that's why we connect so well. These are
the things
that truly resonate.
And I believe that across the world,
politicians are covered so much by the
media that people mostly perceive each
other through its
lens. People rarely get the chance to
truly meet or personally know one
another. And perhaps third party
intervention is the real cause of
tensions.
When I visited him in the White House
for the first
time, there was already a lot written
about President Trump in the media. At
that time, he was still new to office
and the world had a rather different
perception of him. Even I had been
briefed in many different ways before
meeting him. But to my surprise, the
very moment I stepped into the White
House, he broke all formal protocols
right away.
And then he personally took me on a tour
of the White House. As he showed me
around, I noticed something striking. He
wasn't holding any notes or Q cards, nor
was anyone accompanying him to assist.
He pointed things out himself. This is
where Abraham Lincoln lived, he said. He
even explained why the courtroom was
designed so long. He would point at the
table and tell me which president signed
here and on what date. I found that
incredibly
impressive. It showed how much he
honored the
presidency and how respectful and deeply
connected he was to America's history. I
could feel that and he spoke to me
freely discussing many things openly.
That was my experience from our first
meeting later when his first term
ended
and President Biden won. 4 years
passed. But during that time whenever
someone we both knew met
him and this must have happened dozens
of
times he would say Modi is my friend.
Convey my
regards. That kind of gesture is rare.
Even though we didn't meet physically
for
years, our direct and indirect
communication, our closeness and the
trust between us remained unshaken. He
said that you're a much uh tougher, much
better negotiator than he is. He said
this recently when you
visited. What do you think of him as a
negotiator? And what do you think he
meant about uh you being a great
negotiator? Now that's not something I
can comment on since it's his
graciousness and
humility. It
is very kind of him that he openly
appreciates me on various occasions and
in different
contexts. But about
negotiation, I always put my country's
interests first.
That's why in every forum I speak up for
India's
interest not to harm
anyone but in a positive manner and
because of that no one takes
offense. People know that if Modi is
present he will strongly advocate for
these things. After all the people of
India have given me this responsibility.
For me, my nation is my high command and
I will always honor their will. You've
also had a bunch of productive meetings
with several other folks in your visit
to the United States. Elon Musk, JD
Vance, Tulsi Gabbard,
VCwami. Uh what are some things that
stood out from those meetings? Maybe key
takeaways, key memories. Look, I can say
this. I have observed President Trump
both during his first term and now in
his second run. This time he seems far
more prepared than
before. He has a clear road map in his
mind with well-defined steps, each one
designed to lead him toward his goals.
I also had the chance to meet members of
his team and I truly believe he has put
together a strong capable
group and with such a strong team I feel
they are fully capable of implementing
President Trump's vision based on my
interactions with them.
I met several people Tulsi
Gabar, Vivec Raaswami, Elon
Musk and there was a family-like
atmosphere. Everyone had come with their
families. As for Elon Musk, I have known
him since my time as chief minister. He
was there with his family and children.
So naturally, the atmosphere felt warm
and friendly. Of course, we had
discussions and we talked about many
different topics. now with this doge
mission he is incredibly excited about
how it's
progressing and uh honestly it makes me
happy too because when I took office in
2014 I wanted to free my country from
the deeprooted issues and harmful
practices that have crept in and I'll
continue striving to eliminate as many
of them as I possibly can for
example after I took office in 2014. I
observed that back then we weren't part
of many global discussions not like how
President Trump and Doge are being
talked about today. But let me give you
an example so you can see the kind of
work that was done. I noticed that the
benefits of certain government
schemes, especially welfare
programs, were being exploited by so
many
people who never even existed in real
life. There were ghost names, pensions
being issued to fake people. Bido
pensions were being granted even before
marriages took place and disability
pensions were given without any real
disabilities. Then I launched a scrutiny
process and you'll be shocked to know
what we
found. 100 million
people. 100 million
people. That's 100 million fake or
duplicate names that I remove from the
system. And because of that we saved
massive amount of money. Then I
introduced direct benefit transfer
ensuring that every rupee sent from
Delhi reached the rightful person
without
leakage. As a result, my country saved
nearly 3 trillion rupees that would have
otherwise ended up in the wrong hands.
Just because of direct benefit transfer
through technology, we eliminated
middlemen, ensuring transparency in the
system. I also introduced the JM portal
for government purchases which has
helped save both time and money. It has
increased competition and improved
quality. In India, we had an
overwhelming burden of compliances. I
eliminated 40,000 unnecessary
compliances and removed nearly 1,500
outdated laws that served no purpose.
So in a way my efforts have been about
freeing
governance from unnecessary dominance
and inefficiency and naturally when bold
changes
happen just like Doge's mission they
become a topic of discussion
worldwide. You have uh you and Ci
Jinping have considered each other
friends. How can that friendship be
reinvigorated to help deescalate some of
the recent tensions and resume dialogue
and cooperation with
China?
Look, the relationship between
India and China isn't something new.
Both nations have
ancient cultures and
civilizations. Even in the modern world,
they play a significant
role. If you look at historical
records, for
centuries, India and China have learned
from each
other. Together they have
always contributed to the global good in
some way. Old records suggest that at
one point India and China alone
accounted for more than 50% of the
world's
GDP. That's how massive India's
contribution
was. And I
believe our ties have been extremely
strong with deep cultural connections.
If we look back centuries, there's no
real history of conflict between us. It
has always been about learning from each
other and understanding one another. At
one time, Buddhism had a profound
influence in
China and that philosophy originally
came from
here. Our
relationship should remain just as
strong in the future. It should continue
to grow. Of course, differences are
natural when two neighboring countries
exist. Occasional disagreements are
bound to happen even within a family.
Not everything is always
perfect. But our focus is to ensure that
these differences don't turn into
disputes. That's what we actively work
toward. Instead of
discord,
we
emphasize
dialogue
because only through dialogue can we
build a stable cooperative
relationship that serves the best
interests of both nations.
It is true that there have been ongoing
border disputes between
us and in 2020 the incidents along the
border created significant tensions
between our countries. However, after my
recent meeting with President Xi, we
have seen a return to normaly at the
border. We are now working to restore
conditions to how they were before 2020.
Slowly but surely, trust, enthusiasm,
and energy will return. But of course,
it will take some time since there's
been a 5-year
gap. Our cooperation isn't just
beneficial, it's also essential for
global stability and prosperity. And
since the 21st century is Asia's
century, we want India and China to
compete in a healthy and natural way.
Competition is not a bad thing, but it
should never turn into conflict. The
world is worried
about a brewing global
war. The tensions between China and the
United
States, in Ukraine, Russia, in Europe,
in Israel, the Middle East. Uh what can
you say about how we in the 21st century
can avoid a global war, avoid an
escalation towards more conflict, more
war? Look,
CO exposed the limitations of every
nation. No matter how much we consider
ourselves as a great nation, no matter
how progressive we think we are or how
scientifically advanced we believe we've
become, everyone has their own way of
looking at things. In the end, we all
found ourselves on the same ground.
Every country in the world faced this
reality. At that time, it felt like the
world would learn from
it, that we would move toward a more
unified world.
Just as a geopolitical order emerged
after World War
II, many thought something similar would
happen postco. But
unfortunately, instead
of moving towards
peace, the world became even more
fragmented, ushering in a period of
uncertainty.
And the wars have only made it
worse. I believe that modern wars
are no
longer just about resources or
interests. Today I see so
many kinds of conflicts
happening. Physical battles often get
discussed. Struggles are happening in
every
domain. International organizations that
were once powerful have become almost
irrelevant. No real reforms are
happening. Institutions like the UN are
failing to fulfill their
roles. People
who disregard international laws and
rules continue to act freely and no one
can stop them. In such
situations, the prudent choice for
everyone is to let go of conflict and
move toward
cooperation
and a developmentdriven approach is the
way forward. Expansionism will not
work. As I've said before, the world is
interdependent and interconnected. Every
nation needs one another. No one can
stand
alone. And from all the different forums
I attend, one thing is
clear. Everyone is deeply worried about
these
conflicts. We can only hope that peace
is restored very soon.
I'm not very careful. You keep looking
at your want.
No, no, no. I I barely know what I'm
doing. Prime Minister, uh I'm not very
good at this.
Okay. In uh you've been through your
career and through your life, you have
seen a lot of difficult situations in
the history of India. Uh one of them the
uh Gujarat riots. uh they're one of the
most challenging periods of modern
Indian history when there was violence
between Hindu and Muslim citizens of the
Gujarat that led to over 1,000 deaths.
It revealed uh the intensity of
religious tensions in the region. You
were, as you mentioned, chief minister
of Gujarat at the time. Looking back,
what lessons do you draw from that time?
And we should also say that India's
independent Supreme Court upheld twice
in uh 12 and 22 that you had no
involvement in the violence of the 2002
Gujarat riots. But I was wondering if
you could speak to the broad lessons you
draw from that time.
Look, regarding
your first
point when you humbly said that you
don't know what you're doing, that
you're not good at this. I disagree and
personally feel you've put in tremendous
care. You've done extensive research and
have dived deeply into every small
detail.
So I
think you've done very well and all the
efforts you put in during our
conversation and in all your
conversations are
appreciated and rather
than simply interviewing
me. I feel you're trying to deeply
understand India. That's why I strongly
feel there's genuine honesty in your
sincere effort to uncover the truth. And
for that sincere approach, I genuinely
congratulate you. Thank you. regarding
the earlier events that you
mentioned like the 2002 riots in
Gujarat. I'd like to paint you a clearer
picture of the 12 to 15 months leading
up to that so you can fully
understand the atmosphere of that time.
For
instance, take December 24,
1999. Roughly 3 years
earlier, an Indian flight from Kathmandu
to Delhi was
hijacked, redirected to Afghanistan and
landed in
Kandahar. Hundreds of Indian passengers
were held
hostage. It caused massive turmoil
across India as people faced life and
death uncertainty.
Then in the year 2000, the Red Fort in
Delhi was attacked by
terrorists. Yet another crisis struck
the nation, intensifying fear and
turmoil. On September 11th, 2001, the
Twin Towers in America faced a
devastating terror attack once again
shocking the entire world. Because
ultimately the people behind these
attacks are driven by a similar mindset.
Then in October 2001, terrorists
attacked the Jammu and Kashmir assembly.
Soon after on December 13, 2001, India's
parliament was
targeted. Within just 8 to 10 months,
these major global terrorist
attacks took place. Violent incidents
that led to bloodshed and the loss of
innocent lives. In such a tense
environment, even the smallest spark can
ignite unrest. The situation had already
become extremely volatile. In such
times,
suddenly on October 7th,
2001, I was given the responsibility of
becoming chief minister of Gujarat. This
was an enormous
challenge. At that time, Gujarat
was recovering from a devastating
earthquake, the largest of the previous
century, which had left thousands dead.
My first major task as chief minister
was overseeing the rehabilitation of
survivors. This was a crucial task and
from day one after my oath, I immersed
myself in it. I was a person who had
absolutely no prior experience with
government. I had never been part of any
administration, never even served in
government before. I had never contested
an election, never even been a state
representative. For the first time in my
life, I had to face
elections. On February 24,
2002, I became a state
representative, an elected
representative for the first time.
And it was only around February 24th,
25th or 26th that I stepped into the
Gujarat Assembly for the very first
time. On February 27th,
2002, we were seated in the assembly for
the budget session. And that same
day, it had been just 3 days since I'd
become an state
representative. When suddenly the
horrific Godra incident occurred, it was
a tragedy of unimaginable magnitude.
People were burned alive. You can
imagine against the backdrop of
incidents like the Kandahar hijacking,
the attack on parliament or even
9/11. And
then to have so
many people killed and burned
alive, you can imagine how tense and
volatile the situation
was. Of course, this was tragic for
everyone. Everyone prefers
peace. The perception that these were
the biggest riots ever is actually
misinformation.
If you review the data from before 2002,
you'll see that Gujarat faced frequent
riots. Curfews were constantly being
imposed somewhere. Communal violence
could erupt over trivial issues like
kite flying contests or even minor
bicycle
collisions. Before
2002, Gujarat witnessed over 250
significant riots.
The riots in 1969
lasted nearly 6
months. So there was a long history long
before I was in the
picture. But that one tragic incident in
2002 became a sparking point leading
some people towards violence. Yet the
judiciary thoroughly investigated the
matter.
At that
time our political opponents were in
power and naturally they wanted all
allegations against us to
stick. Despite their relentless efforts,
the
judiciary analyzed the situation
meticulously twice and ultimately found
us completely innocent. Those who were
truly responsible have faced justice
from the courts. But the most important
thing
is in
Gujarat where riots used to
happen somewhere or the other every
year but after
2002 in 22 years there hasn't been a
single major riot in Gujarat. Gujarat
remains completely peaceful. Our
approach has always been to avoid vote
bank politics. Instead, our mantra has
been together with everyone, development
for all, trust from all, and efforts by
everyone. We've shifted away from the
politics of appeasement to the politics
of
aspiration. Because of this, anyone who
wishes to contribute joins us willingly.
We've continuously strived to turn
Gujarat into a well-developed state. And
today, Gujarat is actively contributing
toward building a developed India as
well.
A lot of people love you. I've got to
hear from a lot of them. But there is
also people who criticize you, including
from the media. And folks in the media
have criticized you over this
uh 2002 Gujarat
riots. What's your relationship like
with
criticism? What how do you deal with
critics? How do you deal with criticism
coming from the media or in your own
inner circle or just in your own life?
Look, regarding what you said about
criticism and how I deal with it, if I
had to summarize in one sentence, I
welcome
it. I have a strong
belief
that criticism is the soul of
democracy. If democracy
truly runs in your
veins, you must embrace it.
In our scriptures it
said always keep your critics
close. Critics should be your nearest
companions because through genuine
criticism you can improve quickly and
work democratically with better
insights.
In
fact, I believe we should have more
criticism and it should be sharp and
wellinformed. But my real complaint is
that
nowadays what we see isn't real
criticism. Genuine
criticism requires thorough study,
in-depth research, and careful analysis.
It demands finding the truth from
falsehoods.
Today people look for shortcuts, avoid
proper research and skip deep
analysis. Instead of identifying genuine
weaknesses, they jump straight to
accusations. There's a big difference
between allegations and
criticism. The references you're giving,
they are allegations, not criticism. For
a strong democracy, genuine criticism is
necessary.
Allegations benefit no one. They just
cause unnecessary
conflicts. That's
why I always welcome criticism openly
and whenever false accusations arise, I
calmly continue serving my country with
complete
dedication. Yeah. the thing you speak of
uh is very important to me because I
admire great
journalism and unfortunately in modern
day a lot of
journalists seek clickbait headlines
make accusations because they operate
under incentive because they want the
headline the cheap shot. I think there
is room and desire and hunger for great
journalists and that requires deep
understanding and it saddens me how
often one of the reasons you know I
don't think I'm very good at this but
one of the reasons I really wanted to
talk to you is because I don't see
enough
higheffort deep dive research I don't
know how many books I've read I've read
a lot in preparing just to experience
just to try to understand it requires a
lot lot of preparation, a lot of work.
And I would love to see great
journalists do that more. Uh, and from
that place you can criticize. From that
place, you can really investigate the
complexity of a situation of people in
power, their strengths, their flaws, the
mistakes they have made. But that
requires great great great preparation.
So this uh I wish there was more of that
of great journalism. Yes. Clear.
Welldirected and specific criticism
genuinely helps in the process of
effective
policym. It leads to a clear-cut policy
vision. I specifically pay close
attention to such constructive
criticism. In fact, I actively welcome
it. Regarding your point about
journalistic
headlines, if someone's attracted by
catchy headlines or plays with words, I
honestly don't mind that much.
But when there's a deliberate agenda
behind the actions and the truth is
deliberately
ignored, that can cause damage that
lasts for
decades. If someone focuses on pleasing
their readers or
viewers with attractive
headlines, maybe we can compromise a
little. But if there's a hidden motive
or if things are intentionally twisted
to serve an agenda, that's a serious
issue worth worrying about. And in that
the truth suffers. I think I remember
once in
London, I was invited to give a
speech at an event organized by a
Gujarati newspaper there. So during my
speech I casually said since it was an
event attended by
journalists, what kind of journalism
should we
have? Should it be like a fly or a
bee? I explained a
fly sits on
dirt and spreads the dirt
around. But a
bee lands on flowers, collects nectar,
and then shares that sweetness
everywhere. Yet, if something wrong
occurs, the bee can sting so
powerfully that you'd have to hide your
face for 3 days
straight.
However, some people selectively picked
up just half of my analogy and created a
huge controversy out of it. Honestly,
was I being negative about
anyone? Not at all. I was simply
highlighting the incredible strength of
a bee that even its small sting can
leave such an impact that can make
someone hide their face for days. You
can't show your face. That's the power
journalism should
have. But unfortunately, some people
prefer the fly approach instead.
I I now have a new life goal of becoming
the bee. You mentioned democracy. So,
and not knowing much about government
until
2002. But two from 2002 to today, you
won eight elections that I could
count. So many of the elections over 800
million people vote in
India. What does it take to win an
election like that?
uh and to win an election of 1.4 billion
people where you get to represent those
people, the biggest democracy in the
world. Well, I've been actively involved
in politics for years. Before stepping
into active politics, my focus was
primarily on organizational work. This
also included managing elections and
strategizing campaigns. So that was
where I dedicated my time for 24
years. The
people of Gujarat and India have placed
their trust in me to
lead with unwavering dedication and a
deep sense of duty.
I try to fulfill the sacred
duty entrusted to
me by the people I rever as
divine. I remain committed to honoring
their trust, ensuring it never
falters. And they see me for what I
truly am.
My government is committed
to ensuring welfare schemes reach every
citizen. Every scheme must reach its
intended
beneficiaries. Every
beneficiary must be treated equally. No
one should face discrimination on cast,
creed, faith, wealth or ideology. We
must strive to ensure the well-being and
prosperity of everyone.
This
way, even those not directly
benefiting never feel left out or
treated unfairly. They find comfort in
knowing they too will benefit in due
course. This fosters a deep sense of
trust and trust is the
cornerstone of my governance model.
Secondly, my
governance flows
beyond the eb and flow of
elections. My governance is rooted in
the people, not the polls. It is
committed to the well-being of my
citizens and the greater good of the
nation. As you may know, I had once set
out on a quest for spiritual awakening.
So now I rever my nation as the divine
itself and I now rever the people as the
manifestation of the
divine like a devoted
priest. My heart is set on serving the
people. I don't distance myself from the
people. I live among them as one of
them. And I tell everyone I work with if
you work hard I will work harder. People
see this and it builds trust. Besides, I
have no conflicts of interest. I have no
friends or relatives who stand to gain
from the position I hold. The common man
appreciates this lack of vested
interests. And that's probably just one
reason
why. Moreover, I come from a party with
millions of dedicated volunteers.
volunteers who are completely devoted to
the welfare of India and its citizens.
They have had no stake whatsoever in
politics. They've held no title nor
stray where influence holds sway. My
party is blessed with millions of
volunteers who work tirelessly. I am
proud to belong to the
world's largest political
party and it's not like my party has
been around forever. It reflects the
hard work of millions of volunteers.
Their selfless service is widely
recognized and valued by the
community. It fortifies people's trust
in the BJP echoed in the election
results. I never tallied our election
triumphs but we have had people's
blessings.
I was wondering if you could speak to
the incredible logistics that blew my
mind of running the elections in India.
So there's a lot of interesting
anecdotes that arise. Uh for example,
that no voter should be more than 2
kilometers away from a polling station.
The result of that is you have these
stories of voting machines having to be
carried to remote regions of India is
really incredible. just every single
voter counts and the machinery of having
600 plus million people
vote. Is there some u
anecdote you you could uh speak to that
is particularly impressive to you? Or
maybe you could speak generally to the
logistics of what it makes to run an
election that big, a democracy that big.
First and foremost, I am
truly grateful for your insightful
question. Anyone who believes in
democracy should listen to what I am
about to share with
you. We often discuss election results,
but all the behind-the-scenes work is
overlooked. Let's take the recently
concluded 2024 general elections as an
example.
There were 980
million registered
voters. Each of those voters had a
registered ID and all the necessary
details in a vast
database. And this number is twice the
entire population of North
America. It even surpasses the total
population of the entire European Union.
Out of the 980 million registered
voters,
646 million
people ventured
out and braved the intense heat of May,
determined to cast their
votes. Temperatures soared to 40° in
some areas, yet they chose to go. And
the size of this voter base is double
the population of the United States.
We had more than a million polling
booths. Can you fathom all the manpower
involved in
this? My country has more than 2,500
registered political
parties. This staggering figure with
such a vast array of political parties
has the power to leave the entire world
in awe.
My
country has more than 900 roundthe-clock
news
channels. There are over 5,000
newspapers published daily. They each
play a role in upholding democracy in
their own way. Even
the humblest villages here
embrace technology with remarkable
swiftness. While some other
countries take months to declare
election
results, we announced the results within
a day despite the mind-boggling number
of voters. And you were spot on in
saying that even the remotest villages
have polling stations. We even use
helicopters to transport polling
stations. I believe Arunachal
Pradesh has the highest altitude polling
booth on record. In Gujarat, a polling
booth was set up in the Gear Forest for
just one voter who was in the middle of
nowhere. But we ensured a polling booth
was set up for them. All I mean to say
is
that we
truly leave no stone unturned in our
unwavering commitment to strengthening
democracy, ensuring that we are always
fully prepared and election
ready no matter the circumstances. I
firmly believe that India's election
commission sets a global standard as a
benchmark for conducting free and fair
elections. It is the apex decision
maker. This in itself is such a
remarkable story that the world's top
universities should consider it a case
study. They should analyze the
management behind it as a valuable
learning example.
Given the sheer number of voters, can
you truly grasp the immense depth of
political
awareness? All of this will make for an
excellent case study for the younger
generation
worldwide. Uh to me, I love
democracy. This is one of the main
reasons uh I love the United States, but
there's just nothing quite as beautiful
as democracy when it functions in India.
You know, like you said, 900 million
people registered to vote. It's it
really is a case study. It's beautiful
to see that many people come together
willingly, passionately casting a vote
for some person to represent them. Like
they're putting their heart in that.
It's really important for a person to
feel like their voice is going to be
heard. It's beautiful. Speaking of
which, you are loved by a lot of people.
You are one of the most powerful humans
in the world. Do you sometimes think
about whether this much power has a
corrupting effect on your
mind, especially across the many years
that you've been in
power? Well, I don't think the word
powerful quite reflects the journey of
my life.
I can never claim to be
powerful for all I am is a humble
servant. I even identify myself as not
the prime minister but the prime servant
and service is the guiding principle of
my work
ethic. As far as power is concerned, it
is something I have never bothered
about.
I entered politics not to play power
games but to
serve. Rather than seeking
power, I stay committed to doing and
getting work done. I am more focused on
productivity than
power. I have always dedicated myself to
serving the people. I have always
devoted myself to bringing about a
positive change in their lives.
Like you mentioned, you work a lot. You
give your whole soul to your
work. Do you ever get
lonely? Look, I never experience
loneliness because I am an ardent
believer in the philosophy of 1 +
1. And this philosophy of 1 +
1 is aligned
with my moral
compass. And whenever I am asked to
elaborate on this
outlook, I say the first one represents
Modi and the other one represents the
Almighty. I am never alone for he is
always there to keep me company.
This is just how I
function. Having wholeheartedly embraced
the ideals of Swami
Vivacananda. I firmly believe that
service to mankind is service to
God. For me, the nation itself is divine
and mankind is a reflection of the
divine. I walk this path with the
conviction that serving the people is
serving the divine.
That's why the very notion
of struggling with
loneliness has never even remotely
crossed my mind. like at the time of
pandemic with the lockdown and traveling
restrictions in
place. I came up with a
way to make the most of my
time. I designed
a governance model that operated
seamlessly through video conferencing.
I kept myself occupied
with remote work and virtual
meetings. Another thing I did was to
connect with the people I had worked
with throughout my
life. Among my parties volunteers
nationwide, I made a list of those who
were 70 and
older. Some of the
volunteers had very humble beginnings
and came
from very modest backgrounds. I
personally called every volunteer aged
70 and
above. I made it a point to inquire
about their health and their family's
well-being. I inquired about how their
area was coping. I asked these questions
to make sure they were doing well. This
allowed me to build rapport with them
and we would go down the memory lane.
They were touched that the prime
minister would check on them in the
pandemic.
I made around 40 calls every day without
fail. I carried on with this throughout
the pandemic. It gave me the chance to
reconnect and relive old memories with
familiar faces. Loneliness is never a
concern for me as I always find ways to
stay
engaged. And I have long been at peace
with myself. The time I spent in the
Himalayas have helped me develop this.
I've heard from many people uh that you
are the hardest worker they know. Uh
what's your philosophy behind that?
Maybe you put in crazy hours every
single day. Do you ever get tired? What
what what's your source of strength and
uh perseverance through all of that?
Look, first of all, I don't believe I'm
the only one working. I look at the
people around me and always think,
"These people work harder than I
do." When I think about farmers, I
realize how hard they
work. They toil and sweat under the open
sky day after day. When I look at our
country's soldiers, I think about how
many hours someone spends working
tirelessly in snow, deserts, or even
underwater day and night. When I see a
laborer, I think about how hard they're
working.
I always think about how hard our
mothers and sisters work in every family
for the happiness of the
family. They're the first to wake up and
the last to go to bed taking care of
everyone in the family while also
managing social
responsibilities. Thinking of all this,
I'm in awe of how hard people
work. So I think how can I sleep? How
can I relax? So naturally, the
motivation is right in front of my eyes.
Those very things around me keep me
motivated. Secondly, my responsibilities
keep pushing me
forward. The responsibilities entrusted
to me by my fellow citizens always
remind me that I'm not here to enjoy
privileges. I will always give it my
absolute best. Perhaps there are a
couple of things I may not
accomplish, but there will never be a
lack of effort or hard work from me. And
when I was campaigning in
2014, I had made a promise first in
Gujarat and later across
India. I promised my fellow
citizens
that I will
never fall behind in hard work for my
country.
Secondly, I
promised I would never act with bad
intentions. And thirdly, I vowed I'd
never do anything for personal gain.
Today, it's been 24
years for such a long
period. The people have entrusted me as
head of
government. I've continuously held
myself to these three
standards and I still live by them
today. My inspiration comes from serving
1.4 billion people from understanding
and fulfilling their
aspirations and
addressing their
needs. I'm always determined to do as
much as I can work as hard as possible.
Even today my energy remains just as
strong. Me as an engineer, as a person
who loves mathematics, I have to ask
Savvasa Raman is an Indian mathematician
from a century ago. He's widely
considered to be uh one of the greatest
mathematicians of all time. Self-taught,
grew up in poverty. You have often
spoken about him. Uh what do you find
inspiring about him?
Look,
I deeply respect him.
and
everyone in my country respects him as
well because I strongly believe there's
a deep connection between science and
spirituality. If you closely observe
many scientifically advanced
minds, you'll find they're open
spiritually advanced too. They're not
disconnected from spirituality.
Sinasa Rammanujan once said
that his mathematical
ideas came from the goddess he
woripped. Meaning ideas emerge from
spiritual
discipline. And discipline is more than
just hard work.
It means fully devoting yourself to a
task and completely
immersing yourself into
it so much that you become one with your
work. You see, the more open we are to
new and different sources of knowledge,
the more new ideas we'll have. I think
it's important for us to clearly
understand the difference between
information and knowledge.
Some people mistakenly confuse
information with knowledge, carrying
around large amounts of information. But
I don't believe information alone equals
knowledge. Knowledge is something
deeper. It gradually evolves through
processing, reflection, and
understanding. Recognizing this
difference is important in how we handle
both. You have a reputation for being a
decisive leader. So can you walk me
through on this topic of ideas, how you
make decisions, what's your
process? So for instance, when facing a
high stakes choice
uh with no clear precedence, you know, a
lot of
uncertainty, having to balance input,
how do you make
decisions? There are many factors to my
decision making.
First, I'm perhaps the only politician
in
India who has stayed
overnight in around 85 to 90% of the
districts across the
country. This was before my current
role. I used to travel
extensively. I learned a lot from those
experiences.
They gave
me firsthand knowledge of the ground
realities and grassroots level
issues, not something asked or heard or
learned merely from
books.
Secondly, from a governance perspective,
I carry no baggage of any kind.
I don't carry any
baggage that weighs me down or forces me
to act a certain way. Thirdly, I have a
simple yard stick for
decisions. My country first. I always
question if what I'm doing harms my
nation in any way.
Additionally, Mahatma Gandhi once said
that if you're ever unsure when making a
decision, think of the poorest person's
face, remember them and ask yourself,
will this help them? Then your decision
will be right. That wisdom always guides
me. Remembering ordinary citizens and
considering how my actions affect them.
Another factor in my approach is
that I'm very well connected in my
administration. My officials know this
well and probably
feel overwhelmed by it, by the fact that
my information channels are numerous and
are very
active. Because of that, I receive lots
of insights from various
sources. So when someone comes to brief
me, that's not my only source of
information. I always have additional
perspectives available to me. Another
thing, I maintain a learner's mindset.
Suppose I'm not familiar with something
and an official explains it to me. I
approach them like a student and ask can
you clarify this how does it work then
what happens next and how and whenever I
have different information I
deliberately played devil's advocate and
ask challenging
questions I thoroughly analyze the
issue from multiple
angles hoping that careful evaluation
will yield something valuable
Then once I converge toward a decision
or action that is worth taking, I share
the idea
informally with like-minded
people just to gauge their reactions and
see how they
respond, gathering insights and feedback
before moving
forward until
finally I have a strong conviction that
my decision is
Right? This entire decision-m process
doesn't actually take much time. My
speed is very fast. Let me share an
example. How did I make decisions during
co I had Nobel Prize winners advising
me, giving countless economic examples
from around the world. They'd say, "This
country is doing this, that country did
that. You should do it, too." Renowned
economists constantly bombarded me with
suggestions. Political parties pressured
me relentlessly, urging me to spend huge
amounts of money. But I didn't act
immediately. I paused and
reflected. What exactly should I do?
Then considering the unique conditions
of my own country, I made a clear
decision. I wouldn't let the poor sleep
hungry.
I wouldn't allow social tensions to
arise over basic daily needs. These core
principles guided my
approach. The entire world was in
lockdown. Global economies were
collapsing. Everyone pressured me to
empty the treasury, print more currency,
and flood money everywhere. But I
decided that this was not the right
economic route to follow.
And so instead, the path I
chose after carefully listening to
experts, understanding their opinions
without opposing
them,
and combining their advice with my own
country's situation and my personal
experiences created a system that worked
effectively. As a
result when the whole world suffered
from severe inflation immediately after
CO India did
not.
Today my country is steadily advancing
at a rapid pace emerging as one of the
fastest growing major economies in the
world. The main reason is that during
that crisis with patience and
discipline, I resisted the temptation to
apply every global theory
blindly. We didn't worry about what
newspapers would say, whether they'd
praise or criticize, ignoring all that.
I stayed focused on basic fundamentals,
and by doing so, we succeeded and kept
moving ahead. So ultimately, my economy
benefited as well. My approach has
always been to stay focused on these
fundamentals. Another strength is my
risk-taking
capacity. I don't worry about potential
losses for
myself. If something is right for my
country, for the people, I'm always
prepared to take the risk. And secondly,
I take ownership of my decisions. If
something goes wrong, I don't ship blame
to others.
I stand up, take
responsibility and own the
outcome. When you take
ownership, your team also becomes deeply
committed. They know this person won't
let us down, won't abandon us. He'll
always stand with us because they see
I'm making honest decisions, not for
myself, but for the nation. I've openly
told the country from the start, I'm
human. I can make mistakes, but I won't
act with bad
intentions. People remember those words
clearly. Even if something doesn't go as
planned, they trust that Modi's
intentions were right. They think he
probably meant to do something good,
even if it didn't work out. So, society
sees and accepts me just as I am. You
gave a powerful speech on AI a few weeks
ago at the uh AI summit in France. In it
you spoke about the talent pool for AI
engineers in India. I think it's
probably one of the biggest pools of
brilliant engineers in the world. So how
can uh India become the leader in the
space of AI currently lags behind the
United States? What does it take for
India to start winning and leading the
world in AI?
One thing I'm about to say might sound
strong and it may even upset some
people, but since you've asked, I'll
speak openly from my
heart. No matter what the world does
with
AI, it will remain incomplete without
India. I'm making this statement very
responsibly. Tell
me, you've heard my speech at the AI
summit in
Paris on global
cooperation. What do you
think? Can anyone develop AI entirely on
their own? What is your perspective on
this? So you you gave uh actually in
your speech a brilliant example of
the positive impact of
AI and the limitations of AI. I think
the example you gave is uh when you ask
it to generate an image of a person
writing with their left hand left hand
it's always going to generate a person
writing with their right hand. So in
that way the west creating an AI system
where India is not part of that process
is always going to generate the person
with the right hand is is an essential
part of what the world is historically
but especially in the 21st century. I
agree. I believe AI development is
fundamentally a collaboration.
Everyone
involved supports one
another through shared
experiences and
learning. India isn't just developing
theoretical AI
models. It is actively working on and
bringing to
life AIdriven applications for very
specific use
cases to ensure that GPU access is
available to every section of society.
We have already created a unique
marketplace-based model to ensure its
broad
accessibility. A significant mindset
shift is taking place in
India. Though historical
influences, traditional government
procedures or the lack of strong support
infrastructure made us
appear as lagging behind to others.
Take 5G for example. The world initially
believed we were far
behind. But once we
started,
we became the fastest nation globally to
roll out comprehensive 5G networks.
Recently, an American company executive
visited me and shared his experiences
about this very fact. He told me that if
I were to advertise in the US for
engineers, I would only receive enough
applicants to fill a single room at
best. But if I do the same in India,
even a football field wouldn't be enough
to hold
them. This indicates that India has
access to an extraordinarily vast pool
of talent and that's our greatest
strength.
After
all, artificial
intelligence is
fundamentally powered, shaped, and
guided by human
intelligence. Without genuine human
intelligence, AI can't thrive or
progress sustainably. And that real
intelligence exists abundantly in
India's youth and talent
pool. And I believe that's our greatest
asset.
But also if you look many of the top
tech leaders first of all tech talent
but tech leaders in the US are of Indian
origin. Sundar Pachai Sacha Nadella
Arvan Servinas you've met with some of
them. Uh
what spirit of their Indian origins do
you think they carry in them that
enables them to be so successful?
Look, Indian culture emphasizes
that there should be equal respect for
the place where you're
born and the place where you
work. There should be no
difference. As much as there is
dedication to the land of birth, there
should be the same sense of dedication
to the land of work. You should always
give your best wherever you are. Because
of these rich cultural values, every
Indian strives to give their best effort
regardless of their role or position.
They don't wait until they're in senior
roles, even in smaller roles. Secondly,
they never get involved in anything
questionable or unethical. They tend to
remain dedicated to what's right and
ethical. Their nature is collaborative.
They easily get along with others,
eventually for
success. Just having knowledge isn't
enough. The ability to work effectively
as part of a team matters significantly
more. Understanding people and
harnessing their abilities is an
incredibly valuable
skill.
Generally, people raised in India,
especially those coming from joint
families and brought up in an open
society find it easier to lead complex
tasks and large teams effectively.
That's why
today in major corporations across the
globe you'll find Indians holding key
leadership positions and the problem
solving abilities along with the
analytical thinking of Indian
professionals are truly
exceptional. I believe this capability
is so strong it makes Indians globally
competitive and
extremely valuable on the international
stage. This is the reason
why in fields like innovation,
entrepreneurship, startups and
boardrooms, you'll find Indians
achieving extraordinary results
everywhere. Take our space sector for
example.
Previously, it was entirely government
controlled, but just a couple of years
ago, I opened it up to the private
sector and now we already have 200
startups working in space
technology.
Moreover, our missions like
Chandrean are extremely cost
effective. India's Chundrean mission
cost less than what Hollywood spends
making a single blockbuster film.
So when the world sees how cost
effective our work is, they naturally
think why not partner with India. This
automatically generates respect for
Indian talent
globally. I
believe this is a hallmark of our
civilizational
ethos. So you spoke about this human
intelligence. Uh do you worry that AI
artificial intelligence will replace us
humans?
It's true that in every
era a competitive atmosphere was
created between technology and
humanity. At
times it was
even portrayed as
conflict. It was often portrayed as if
technology would challenge human
existence itself. But every time as
technology advanced, humans adapted and
stayed a step ahead. It has always been
the case. After all, it is humans who
find the best ways to use technology to
their
advantage. And I believe that with
AI, humans are
now being forced to reflect on what it
truly means to be human. This is the
real power of
AI. Because of the way AI functions, it
has challenged how we perceive work
itself.
But human imagination is the
fuel. AI can
create many things based on that and in
the future it may achieve even more.
Still, I firmly believe that no
technology can
ever replace the boundless creativity
and imagination of the human mind. I
agree with you. It does make me and a
lot of people wonder what it makes
humans special because it seems that
there's a lot that makes humans special.
the imagination, the creativity, the
consciousness, the ability to be afraid,
to
love, to dream, to think outside of the
box, outside of the box of the box of
the box, take risks, all of those
things. Now, look, humans have an innate
ability to care for each
other, the natural tendency to be
concerned about one another.
Now can someone tell me is AI capable of
this? This is one of the big open
questions of the 21st
century. Every year you host the parica
bchacha where you interact directly with
young students and give them advice on
how to prepare for exams. I watched a
bunch of them. So you you give advice on
how to succeed in exams, how to manage
stress, all those kinds of things. Uh
can you explain at a high level the
different exams that students in India
need to take in their education journey
and why it's so stressful? By and large
a strange mindset has developed in
society
today. Even schools measure their
success by students rankings.
Families too feel pride when their child
achieves a high rank because they
believe it improves their educational
and social status. This mentality has
resulted in increased pressure on
children. Kids also began feeling that
their entire lives depend on 10th and
12th grade
exams. We've introduced significant
changes in our new education policy to
address this issue. But until those
changes take effect on the ground, I
feel another
responsibility. If our children face
challenges, it's my duty to listen to
them, understand them and ease their
burden. In a way when I conduct parika
chacha I get insights directly from the
students understand their parents'
mindset as well as the perspectives of
people in the educational
field. So these discussions don't just
benefit the students they benefit me
too. Exams are valuable for assessing
knowledge in
a specific domain.
But they can't become the sole measure
of someone's overall
potential. Many
people may not score high academically
yet can hit a century in cricket because
that's where their true strength lies.
When the focus shifts to actual
learning, scores tend to naturally
improve.
I remember when I was a
student, I had a
teacher whose learning techniques still
greatly appeal to me today. He would
give us children specific instructions.
To one child, he would say, "Tomorrow,
bring exactly 10 chickpeas from
home." To another, he might request,
"Bring 15 grains of rice, no more, no
less." A third child could be told,
"Bring 21 moon beans, precisely that
number." Different students got
different quantities and varieties. So
each child would think, "I need to get
exactly 10." And counting them at home
help them memorize numbers naturally.
Then they'd learn what chickpeas were.
And after returning to school, they'd
pull it all. The teacher would then ask,
"Take out 10 chickpeas, three chickpeas,
two moon beans." This way, children
learned math and could identify
chickpeas and moon beans effortlessly.
I'm talking about early childhood
education here. Such learning techniques
educate children without burdening them.
And we've incorporated similar methods
into our new education policy. When I
was in school, I observed one of my
teachers using an innovative idea. On
his very first day, he placed a diary on
the table and
said, "Whoever arrives earliest each
morning will write one sentence in this
diary along with their name."
The next
student would then need to write a
related
sentence. At first, I'd rush to school
very early every day. Why? So that I
could write the first sentence. I once
wrote something like, "Today's
sunrise was
magnificent. It filled me with energy.
I'd write my name and whoever arrived
after me had to write something
connected to the sunrise as
well. After a few
days, I
realized my creativity wasn't improving
much from this. Why? Because I'd arrived
with the fixed thought already in mind
and simply write it down. So, I decided
I'd start going last instead.
What happened then was that I read what
others had written
first and then tried to give my very
best. As a result, my creativity began
to improve even
more. Sometimes teachers do these small
simple activities that greatly impact
your life.
These
experiences combined with my own
background in organizational work made
human resource development a key area of
focus for me. That's why I engage with
children through events once or twice
each year and over time these efforts
have resulted in a book that's
benefiting thousands of children serving
as a valuable reference for them. Can
you speak a little bit more
uh by way of advice to students of uh
how to be successful on their path in
their career, how to find the career and
how to find success in India and just to
all the people across the world who find
inspiration in your
words. I believe
that whatever task you
get, if you perform that
task with complete dedication and
sincerity, they
inevitably become an expert sooner or
later.
and their enhanced
capabilities open doors to
success while
working. One must continually strive to
improve their
skills and should never
underestimate their ability to learn.
When someone constantly neglects their
learning ability, they limit their
growth. But those who look beyond their
tasks and observe what others around
them are doing. Their capacity can
double or even triple to young people.
I'd say this
clearly. There's no need to feel
discouraged. There's
certainly some task out there destined
just for you. Don't worry.
Focus on enhancing your skills and
opportunities will
come. You may think I wanted to be a
doctor but became a teacher. My life is
wasted. Thinking like that won't help
you at all. All right, you didn't become
a doctor. But as a teacher, you can
shape a 100
doctors. If you had become a doctor,
you'd serve only your patients. But now
as a teacher, you can inspire students
to fulfill their dreams of becoming
doctors. so that both you and your
students can together serve millions of
patients. Then he gains a new
perspective on life. I couldn't become a
doctor so I was miserable and I was
unhappy being a teacher. But now I
realize as a teacher I can create
doctors. Connecting your life to a
greater purpose brings a sense of
inspiration and meaning. I have always
believed
that God has given everyone unique
capabilities.
Never lose faith in your own
abilities. You should always maintain
trust in your own abilities. Keep
believing in yourself and trust that
when the opportunity comes, you'll
perform and you'll succeed. That
confidence makes a person deliver
results. How do those
students deal with stress, with
struggle, with difficulties along that
path?
Parents must first understand that life
is not just about taking
exams. Families should understand that
their children aren't trophies meant to
be
displayed or models to show up in
society. It's not about saying, "Look,
my kids score so high." Parents really
need to stop using their kids just as
status symbols. Secondly, students
should always keep
themselves well prepared beforehand.
Only
then can they appear for exams feeling
stress free and confident. They should
have complete trust in themselves and
their
abilities. Sometimes I see students
panic over the smallest issues during
exams. They take papers or other things
and when their pen suddenly stops
working causing anxiety. Sometimes they
feel uneasy thinking oh no I don't like
sitting next to this person. If the
bench wobbles their whole attention goes
there. indicating
self-doubt. Those lacking confidence
constantly keep looking for
distractions. But if you're confident
and have genuinely worked hard, just
take a minute, take some deep breaths,
relax your mind, and refocus your
attention
calmly. Slowly read through the
questions and allocate your time
systematically. I have this amount of
time. I'll dedicate these minutes per
question.
In my experience, students who regularly
practice writing test papers can easily
overcome such situations without any
trouble at all. And you said always
focus on learning. What's your approach
to
learning? What advice can you give on
how to learn best? Not just when you're
young, throughout your
life. Let me share a personal example
with you.
I used to learn a lot from
reading but these
days more and
more I learn by being fully present.
Whenever I meet someone I am fully
present in the moment. I give them my
full
attention. These complete focus allows
me to grasp new concepts
quickly. When I'm with you, I'm fully
present, grounded in the moment. No
calls or messages can pull me away from
this moment with you. I am fully
present, focused on the here and
now. That's why I always believe this is
a habit everyone should
embrace. It will sharpen your mind and
improve your learning ability. Besides,
knowledge alone cannot light the way.
You must immerse yourself in the flow of
practice. You cannot master driving
merely by reading the life stories of
great drivers.
You must get behind the wheel and take
the road yourself. You must dare to take
risks. You can never master the road. If
fear of accident or death holds you
back, I truly believe
that those who live in the present are
the ones who live their life to the
fullest. That's because they know that
every moment
lived has already slipped into the past.
So you must embrace the moment before it
fades into the
past. Otherwise, chasing the future only
turns the present into the past. It's
not a trade worth making. Most
people stress so much about the future
that their present quietly slips away.
Before they know it, the moment has
already faded into the
past. Yeah. I've heard a lot of stories
of uh of you having meetings with people
and it's usually all the distractions
are there's no distractions. It's just
two human beings just like this and just
focused uh on the on the moment and the
interaction. That's a really beautiful
thing and today really is a gift that
you would give that focus to me. So
thank you. Uh let me ask maybe a
difficult maybe a human question.
Do you contemplate your mortality? Are
you afraid of
death? Can I ask you a question
instead? Sure. I have a very interesting
question. Life and death are two sides
of a coin, but which of the two is more
certain? Death. Exactly.
Now with that out of the
way, we know for a fact that life itself
is a whispered promise of death. And yet
life is also destined to
flourish. So again in the dance of life
and death only death is
certain. So why fear what is certain?
That's why you must embrace
life instead of ftting over
death. That's how life will evolve and
flourish. For it is
uncertain. That's why you must commit to
enriching, refining, and elevating your
life so you can live fully and with a
purpose before death comes knocking.
That's why you must let go of the fear
of death. After all, death is inevitable
and there's no use worrying about when
it will arrive. It will arrive when it's
meant
to. What gives you hope about the
future, not just of India, but all of
human civilization, all of us humans
here on Earth?
Well, I am an optimist at heart.
Pessimism and negativity are simply not
ingrained in my mindset. They don't
align with the way I
think. That's why I always gravitate
toward the bright side
instead. If we take a moment to reflect
on the history of
mankind, we see the incredible crisis
humans have overcome with resilience and
strength.
We also see the major changes humanity
has embraced to evolve with the
times. And this continuous
transformation has carried on for
millennia. In every era, it is in human
nature to adapt to the everflowing
current of change. And while our
progress has gone through cycles of ups
and
downs, it is those people who can break
free from the
constraints of these historical cycles
and outdated thinking
patterns. It is they who can help
humanity achieve extraordinary positive
breakthroughs with an unshackled speed
and grace.
transcending the limitations of the old
way of doing things by
embracing
change. In this moment, I was wondering
if you could guide
me perhaps through a Hindu prayer or
meditation for a few moments. I
uh uh
learned I'm trying to learn uh the Gaia
tree mantra.
uh and in my fast I was trying to do the
chants. Perhaps I could try chanting.
You could uh tell me about the
importance of this mantra and maybe
others in your life in in your
spirituality. Should I try? Yes, please.
How'd I do? It's okay. You did
great. This mantra is dedicated to the
radiant power of the sun.
and is considered a powerful tool for
spiritual
enlightenment. Many mantras in Hindu
philosophy are deeply
intertwined in some intricate and
interesting
ways with science and
nature. Each woven into different facets
of life, chanting mantras on a daily
basis.
brings profound and lasting
benefits in your own spirituality. In
your quiet
moments, when you're with
God, where does your mind go? What role
do mantras play?
uh when you're fasting when you're just
alone with
yourself the word meditation has been
overused to the
point that it feels like a
cliche in Indian languages we usually
refer to it as
dian if I
associate dian to meditation it might
seem burdensome to some one might think
this is too difficult
I'm not an enlightened being, but it's
not rocket science. It just means
freeing
yourself from
distraction. For
example, even when you're in
class, your mind wanders to
recess. All you think about is lunch,
not the
lesson. Meditation is simply being
present in the moment. I recall an
incident
From my time living in the
Himalayas, there I encountered this wise
sage. He taught me a
simple practical technique. It was
nothing
spiritual. There are several little
streams in the Himalayas.
He
positioned a large
leaf to catch
water from one of those
streams and placed an upside down bowl
below so water would drip rhythmically
from the leaf onto the bowl.
He asked me to focus only on
the dripping water, ignoring all other
[Music]
sounds. Ignore the chirping birds and
the soft rustle of the
breeze. He would place the
leaf and I would meditate there for
hours.
I
felt my mind slowly tuning
into the rhythmic sounds of the water
droplets falling onto the bowl like a
melody guiding me into deep focus. And
it's not like I was chanting mantras or
reciting God's
name. I like to call it the divine
resonance. It was by tuning into that
divine resonance that I learned the art
of
concentration. This practice slowly
evolved into
meditation. Sometimes you happen to stay
at a fancy
hotel. You get a lavish luxurious room.
The decor is impeccable and you have
been wholeheartedly
fasting. But there's a dripping faucet
in the bathroom.
That faint sound is enough to make a
luxurious
room feel
worthless. At times we
realize the value of
concentration in life's inner
journey. We come to appreciate the
difference a little bit of concentration
can make. One very interesting concept
comes to
mind from our scriptures.
Since we spoke about life and
death, I would like to quote a
mantra. In other
words, all life is part of a complete
circle and this mantra emphasizes the
path to achieve that completeness.
Similarly, Hindus never focus solely on
individual
well-being. In other words, we wish for
the well-being and prosperity of
all. This mantra encompasses the idea of
universal well-being and prosperity. And
you know how this mantra ends? Om Shanti
Shanti Shanti. Every Hindu mantra ends
on the same note. Peace, peace,
peace. These ancient and powerful
rituals born in
India have emerged from thousands of
years of the spiritual practice of
sages. They connect us to the essence of
life. Shanti, Shanti, Shanti.
Thank you for this honor. Thank you for
this incredible conversation. Thank you
for welcoming me to India and uh I can't
wait to break the fast with some Indian
food
tomorrow. Thank you so much, Prime
Minister. This was an honor. I am
thankful for the opportunity to have
this conversation with you. After
fasting for 2 days, I recommend you ease
into eating slowly and I hope you reap
great benefits from this fasting
experience.
I've explored several new realms of
thought for the first time ever with you
today. I had long kept
those
thoughts tucked away within myself, but
today you brought those thoughts to
light. I
hope. Thank you. I hope your viewers may
enjoy this. It was a great pleasure
speaking with
you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you for listening to this
conversation with Prime Minister
Narendra Modi. And now, let me answer
some questions and try to reflect on and
articulate some things I've been
thinking about. If you would like to
submit questions or get in touch with me
for whatever reason, go to
lexfreedman.com/cont. First, let me give
a shout out to the amazing team around
the prime minister. Everyone was super
kind, excellent at what they do,
efficient, great communication and just
great people all around. And since I
spoke English and uh Prime Minister Modi
spoke Hindi, I have to comment on the
interpreter who was uh doing
simultaneous interpreting for both of
us. She was absolutely amazing. I can't
sing her enough praises from the
equipment used to the quality of the
translation to just the human touch of
it all. And in general, my travels
around Delhi and India revealed to me
some early glimpses of what felt like
another world, almost like another
planet, different culturally from
anything I've experienced before. a
chaos of human interactions out their
big dynamic personalities and
characters. Obviously, India is composed
of many distinct subcultures and Delhi
represents just one slice. Much like
neither New York or Texas or Iowa alone
represent America, they're all different
flavors of America. On my visit, I
walked around and rode rickshaws
everywhere, just aimlessly wandering the
streets, looking to talk to people about
life. Of course, like many places on
Earth, there are always some people,
especially those that have uh something
to sell, who will at first see me as a
tourist, a foreign traveler, one with
some money to spend. Like always, I
avoided such shallow interactions and
went straight past the small talk to the
meaningful
conversations, shooting the about
what they love, what they fear, what
kind of hardship and triumph they've
experienced in their lives. I think the
cool thing about people anywhere on
Earth is they quickly do see the real
you past the facad that strangers put up
for each other. if you're vulnerable and
honest enough to let them. And I tried
to do just that. And I should say that
for the most part, everyone was super
kind in the genuine human way. Even when
they didn't speak English, it was always
easy to understand. Probably more than
any other peoples I've interacted with
in India. People's eyes, faces, body
language, all communicated a lot of
information, a lot of emotion. Not
reserved at all. When I travel through
Eastern Europe, for example, in
contrast, reading a person is much
tougher. The meme does have some truth
to it. There's often a protective layer
between the heart of the person and the
outside world. In India, it's all there
on full
display. So, I had a lot of epic
conversations and interactions as I
walked around Delhi for a couple of
weeks. In general, on the topic of
reading people, I do believe the eyes
can often say more than words can. We
humans are a fascinating bunch. There
really is a deep turbulent ocean behind
the surface waves we show the world. In
some sense, what I try to do in
conversations on and off the mic is to
get to that depth. Anyway, the few weeks
I spent in India were a magical
experience. Traffic alone was a wild
time, like the world's most difficult
test for self-driving cars. It reminded
me of watching nature documentary videos
of swarms of
fish when it's thousands of them
swimming around at insane speeds,
seemingly in complete chaos. And yet,
when looking at the big picture of it,
it all works like a perfectly tuned
orchestra.
I will most certainly travel around
India with my friend Paul Rosley in the
near future. Maybe with some other
friends all around from the north of
India to the
south. Now allow me to also comment
about one of the books that first drew
me toward India and to its deep history
of philosophical and spiritual
traditions. The book is Sedartha by
Herman Hess. I first read most of
Hessa's major work as a teenager but
then reread them again through the
years. It first found me Sedartha when I
was immersed in a very different kind of
literature of Dusty, Kimu, Kofka,
Orwell, Hemingway, Carowak, Steinbeach
and so on. Many of these explore the
same human condition that puzzled me
when I was a young man and still puzzles
me today even more so. But Sedartha was
my introduction to the eastern way of
looking at these puzzles. It was written
by Herman Hess. And by the way, please
allow me this pronunciation of his last
name. I've heard some people say Hess,
but my whole life I've always said Hess.
So anyway, it was written by Herman
Hess, a German Swiss Nobel Prize-winning
writer during one of the darkest periods
of his own life. His marriage was
failing. World War I had shattered his
pacifist ideals, and he suffered from
debilitating headaches, insomnia, and
depression. During this period, he began
psychoanalysis with Carl Jung, which in
part led him to explore Eastern
philosophies as a way to heal his
fractured
psyche. Hi immersed himself in
translations of ancient Hindu and
Buddhist texts studying the aanishads
and the Bhagavad Gita and so the writing
of Sedartha was in itself for him a
journey that paralleled that of the main
character in the book. Hess started
writing the book in 1919 and finished 3
years later experiencing an extensive
psychological crisis in the middle. The
book follows Sedartha, a young man in
ancient India, as he leaves behind
wealth and comfort, the search for
meaning. You can feel his personal
struggle in every page. Sedartha's
restlessness, his dissatisfaction with
conventional wisdom, his need to find
truth through direct experience. Again,
the book wasn't simply a philosophical
exploration for Hess. It was
psychological survival. He was writing
his way out of suffering and towards his
own
enlightenment. I won't go into a deep
analysis of the book here, but I will
mention two key lessons I took away and
carried with me to this day. First
lesson comes from the scene in the book
that to me is one of the great scenes in
all of literature. Sedartha is sitting
by a river just listening. And in that
river, he hears all of life, all sounds,
all voices, all of time, past, present,
future, flowing together as
one. That scene gave me the experience
and the notion that while in some
grounded human sense, the linear arrow
of time does exist, in another sense,
time is a kind of illusion. That in
fact, everything exists simultaneously.
that our lives are both momentary and
eternal. It is hard to describe these
ideas with words. I think they must be
experienced as personal
revelations. I'm reminded of the fish
story that David Foster Wallace, another
one of my favorite writers, described in
a commencement speech 20 years ago. The
story goes, two young fish are swimming
along when they encounter an older fish
swimming the opposite way. The older
fish nods and says, "Morning, boys.
How's the
water?" The young fish swim on and
eventually one turns to the other and
asks, "What the hell is water?" The
illusion of the forward progress of time
is water in this metaphor. As humans,
we're fully immersed in it. But
enlightenment in part involves being
able to step back and get a glimpse at
another deeper perspective on reality
where all things are inextricably
interconnected across both time and
space.
Another key lesson from the novel that
was especially formative to me as a
young man was that one should not
blindly follow others or learn about the
world exclusively through books, but
rather forge your own path and thrust
yourself into the world where the
lessons of life can only be learned by
experiencing them
directly. And every experience, both
positive and negative, mistakes,
suffering, and even seemingly wasted
time, is all an essential part of
growth. To this point, Hess draws a
distinction between knowledge and
wisdom. Knowledge can be taught by
others. Wisdom can only be gathered
through experiencing the full mess of
life yourself.
In other words, the path to
understanding isn't through rejection of
the world, but through complete
immersion in it. Those are my early
steps in seeing the world through the
lens of Eastern philosophy. But many of
H's books had an impact on me. I would
recommend to read Damian when you are
younger, Stephen Wolf when you are
older, Sedarthur throughout your life,
especially in moments of crisis, and the
glass bead game if you want to take on
Hess's Magnum Opus that rigorously
explores the ways the human mind and
human civilization can engage in the
pursuit of knowledge, wisdom, and
meaning. But Sedartha is the only one
I've returned to more than twice. In my
own life, when faced with a difficult
situation, I often return to the moment
in the book when Sedartha is asked what
skills he possesses. And his answer is
simply, I can think, I can wait, I can
fast. Let me elaborate. Indeed, for the
first part, I can think. As Marcus
Aurelius said, the quality of your life
is determined by the quality of your
thoughts. For the second part, I can
wait. Patience and waiting often is
indeed the optimal decision when facing
a problem. Time does bring clarity and
depth of
understanding. For the third part, I can
fast when needed. Being able to live and
flourish with less is a prerequisite of
being free when the mind, the body, and
society all are trying to put you in
cages. All right, friends. Now, sadly,
our time together in this episode has
come to a close. As always, thank you
for being here and thank you for your
support through the years.
Let me leave you with a few words from
the Bhagavad
Gita. He who experiences the unity of
life sees his own self in all beings and
all beings in his own self and looks
onto everything with an impartial
eye. Thank you for listening. I hope to
see you next time.