Kind: captions
Language: en
My strength lies not in my name but in
the backing of 1.4 billion Indians and
thousands of years of timeless culture
and
heritage. So wherever I go I carry with
me the essence of thousands of years of
vic
tradition the timeless teachings of
Swami
Viveanand and the
blessings dreams and aspirations of 1.4
4 billion
Indians. When I shake hands with a world
leader, it's not
Modi but 1.4 billion Indians doing so.
So this isn't my strength at all. It is
rather the strength of India. Whenever
we speak of peace, the world listens to
us. Because India is the land of Gautam
Buddha and Mahatma Gandhi and
Indians aren't hardwired to espouse
strife and
conflict. We espouse harmony instead. We
seek neither to wage war against nature
nor to foster strife among nations. We
stand for peace and wherever we can act
as peacemakers we have gladly embraced
that
responsibility. My early life was spent
in extreme
poverty but we
never really felt the burden of poverty.
You see, someone who is used to wearing
fine
shoes will feel their
absence when they don't have them. But
for us, we had never worn shoes in our
lives. So, how would we even know that
wearing shoes was a big deal? We weren't
in a position to compare. That's just
how we lived. When I became prime
minister, I specially invited Pakistan
to my swearing in ceremony so we could
turn over a new leaf. Yet every noble
attempt at fostering peace was met with
hostility and
betrayal. We sincerely hope that wisdom
prevails upon them and they choose the
path of peace. I believe even the people
of Pakistan long for peace. Look,
regarding what you said about criticism
and how I deal with it, if I had to
summarize in one sentence, I welcome
it. I have a strong
belief
that criticism is the soul of
democracy. I want to tell all the young
people the
following. No matter
How dark the night may
seem, it is still just
night and morning is bound to
come. The following is a conversation
with Narendra Modi, the Prime Minister
of
India. It was one of the most moving
conversations and experiences of my
life. Allow me here to say a few words
about it. Please skip ahead straight to
our conversation if you like. Narendra
Mod's life story is incredible. He rose
from poverty to lead a nation of 1.4
billion people, the biggest democracy in
the world, where he won epic scale
elections for prime minister three
times. As a leader, he fought for ideas
that unite his nation of India. A nation
that is composed of a large number of
highly varied and disperate cultures and
peoples who have a long history marked
by religious, social, and political
frictions. He's known for taking
decisive, at times controversial actions
for which he is loved by hundreds of
millions of people and is also
criticized by many. We discuss all of
this at length in this
conversation. On the world stage, he is
respected as a peacemaker and friend by
most major world leaders, even those
whose nations are at war with each
other, from United States to China to
Ukraine and Russia to Israel, Palestine,
and the Middle East and everywhere else.
Now, at this moment in history, it is
clear, at least to me, that the
flourishing of human civilization hangs
in the balance with several wars on the
brink of escalation to regional and even
global conflict, rising tensions between
nuclear powers, technological
developments from AI to nuclear fusion
that aim to completely transform society
and geopolitics as we know it, and of
course, generally increasing political
and cultural turmoil.
So now more than ever, we need great
leaders, great peacemakers who build
bridges, not destroy them, who may
preserve the identity of their nations,
but still celebrate the common humanity
of all of us, all people on Earth. For
this and many other reasons, this
conversation with Prime Minister Modi
was one of the most remarkable I've ever
had.
You may hear such words and think that
I'm just enamored by power or access.
No, never was, never will be. I do not
idolize anyone, especially those in
power. I'm generally skeptical of power,
money, and fame because of their natural
corrupting influence on the mind, the
heart, the soul of a person. The whole
point of all the conversations I've had
in my life, on mic and off mic, is that
I try to see and explore the full
complexity of every human being, the
good and the
bad. I believe we're all the same in a
deep fundamental sense. All capable of
good, all capable of evil, all carry
stories of pain and stories of hope.
Whether you're a world leader or a truck
driver, a coal miner, or a farmer in the
American Midwest. And by the way, I will
be talking to a lot of the latter kind
of folk this year off mic and maybe even
on mic as I travel the US and the world.
My brief statements here about Narendra
Modi are about both him as a leader and
especially him as a human being. In the
extensive time I spent with him and
spoke with him off mic and on mic, it
was a deeply personal human interaction
characterized by warmth, kindness,
humor, inner and outer peace and
absolute focus on the conversation
between us in the present moment as if
nothing else existed.
I have heard from many people that he
treats everyone he meets in this
empathic way, no matter where they come
from or what their position is in this
world. So for those and many other
reasons, this really was an incredible
experience I will never
forget. Oh, and by the way, we made
captions and voiceover audio tracks
available in English, Hindi, and other
languages. You can also listen to the
original mixed language version where I
speak English and Prime Minister Modi
speaks Hindi. Separately, you can choose
to turn on subtitles in your preferred
language. On YouTube, you can switch
between language audio tracks by
clicking the settings gear icon, then
clicking audio track, and then selecting
the language you prefer. For fully
English overdub, select English. For
fully Hindi overdub, select Hindi. And
to listen to the original mixed language
version where I speak English and Prime
Minister Modi speaks Hindi, please
select Hindi Latin audio track. So you
can listen either to a version that is
all one language or to the original
mixed language version with subtitles in
your preferred language. The default is
English overdub where thanks to 11 Labs
and a great team of translators, we do
our best to bring the prime minister's
voice to life with AI voice cloning in
English. I promise that we will continue
to work very hard to break down the
barriers that language creates and try
to make these conversations as
accessible as possible to everyone in
the world.
Anyway, let me pause one more time to
say a big thank you. What a wild ride
this life has been. It's an honor for me
to be on it with all of you. I love you
all. This is the Lex Freedman podcast.
And now, dear friends, here's the Prime
Minister of India, Narendra
Modi. So, I should also say I'm fasting
right now. It's been almost two days, 45
hours. Uh, so just water, uh, no food.
In honor of this conversation, just to
get in the right mindset, get into the
spirit spiritual level. I've read that
you often fast for many days. Can you
explain why you fast and where does your
mind go when you fast?
First of all, I'm truly pleasantly
surprised and
honored that you're fasting.
All the more because it feels
like you're fasting as a tribute of
respect for me. So I express my deepest
gratitude to you for doing
this. In
India, our religious
traditions are actually a way of life.
Our Supreme Court once gave
a brilliant interpretation of Hinduism.
It's a way of living, a philosophy that
guides life
itself. And in our
scriptures, there is deep
discussion on
elevating the body, mind, intellect,
soul and humanity.
They outline various paths, traditions
and systems to achieve
this and fasting is one of
them. But fasting alone isn't
everything. In
India, whether you see it culturally or
philosophically, sometimes I see that
fasting is a way to cultivate
discipline. If I put it in simple terms
or explain it to the viewers who are
unfamiliar with
India, it is a powerful tool to bring
both the inner and outer
self into
balance. It shapes life in profound
ways. When you
fast, you may have noticed as you said,
you've been fasting on water for two
days.
Every single one of your
senses, especially smell, touch, and
taste, becomes highly
sensitive. You may even notice the
subtle aroma of water
itself. Something you probably never
noticed before when drinking it. If
someone walks past you carrying
tea, you will catch its aroma just like
you would with coffee.
A small flower you've seen before, you
will see it again
today. But now you can perceive its
details more vividly.
Your senses become extra
sharp, highly
aware and fully tuned
in and
uh their
capability to observe and to respond
multiplies and grow
sharper. I have personally often
experienced this. Another thing I've
experienced is that
fasting can greatly
accelerate the thinking process and can
uh give a fresh perspective. You start
thinking outside the box. I don't know
if everyone experiences this but I
certainly do.
Most people assume that
fasting simply means giving up food or
not
eating. But that's just the physical
aspect of
fasting. If someone is forced to go
without food due to
hardship with an empty stomach, can we
call that
fasting? Fasting is actually a
scientific process. Whenever I fast for
an extended period, I prepare my body in
advance for 5 to 7 days before the fast.
I follow various ayurvedic practices and
yoga practices along with other
traditional cleansing methods to
internally reset my
system. Before actually beginning the
fast, I make sure to drink a lot of
water as much as possible.
So you could say that this
detoxification process helps prepare my
body in the best possible way. And once
I begin fasting, for me it's an act of
devotion. For me, fasting is a form of
self-
discipline. For me
personally, even while I go about doing
my daily activities during a
fast, my
mind remains deeply
introspective and focused
inward. And that experience is
profoundly transformative for me.
My practice of fasting didn't come from
reading books, listening to
sermons, or following a tradition just
because my family happened to have
observed
it. It came from my own personal
experience. During my school
days, there was a movement inspired by
Mahatma Gandhi's
vision, his vision of cow protection.
The government had not enacted any laws
at the time. At the time, people across
the
country observed a one-day fast by
gathering in public places in silent
protests. We were just
kids, probably had just finished primary
school. Something inside me said, "I
should be part of this." And that was
the first time in my life I experienced
fasting. At such a young
age, I felt neither hunger nor any
desire for food. Instead, I felt a new
awareness, a surge of energy within
me. So, I became convinced that fasting
is a
science far beyond just skipping meals.
It is something far greater than that.
Then
gradually I refined my body and mind
through various
experiments. Over time it became a long
and disciplined journey for
me. And one thing is certain, fasting
never slows me
down. I work just as much as usual.
Sometimes I even work more.
And another fascinating thing I've
noticed is
that when I need to express my
thoughts, I'm amazed at where they come
from and how they flow.
Yeah. It's truly an incredible
experience. So you still do meetings
with world leaders. You still manage the
affairs of India. You still carry out
your role as a leader on the world
stage. all fasted and sometimes 9 days.
Well, this practice has a long
historical context. I hope it may be
interesting for those listening. There
is an ancient tradition in India called
shaturmas. During the monsoon season, we
know that the digestion tends to slow
down. And so in this
season, many people in India follow the
practice of eating only a single meal
within 24 hours. For me this starts
around mid
June and goes on until after Diwali
around
November for about 4 to 4 and 1/2
months. I follow this tradition of
eating only once in 24
hours. Then comes the Navatri festival
in India which usually falls in
September or October.
During this time the whole country
celebrates Dura Puja, a festival of
strength, devotion and spiritual
discipline. This lasts for 9 days.
During this time I completely abstained
from food and only drink hot water.
Although drinking hot water has always
been a part of my daily routine, my past
lifestyle was such that I naturally
developed this habit over time.
Then in March or
April, another navatri
occurs called chaitra
navatri. This year it will likely begin
around March
31st. During this 9-day fast, I eat only
one specific fruit once a day.
So for those nine days if let's say I
choose
papaya then for all nine days I won't
touch anything else just
papaya that too I eat only once a day
that's how I follow my 9-day fasting
routine so there are numerous fasts I
keep throughout the year and this has
become a deeply ingrained tradition in
my
life perhaps I can say that I've been
following these practices for 50 to 55
years. Has there been times when you met
with a world leader and uh completely
fasted? And maybe what do they think
about that? What do they think about
your ability to do that kind of thing?
And and you're right. I should mention
that uh from even my two days, my
ability to be present, my ability to
sense everything sharply focus on this
experience is elevated. But yes, is
there stories with the world leader that
maybe jumped to mind when you were
fasted? Well, most of the time I don't
even let people know about
it. It's my personal matter. So, I never
publicized it. But people gradually
started finding out. It became known
only after I became chief minister and
prime minister.
Otherwise, it was purely personal.
But now that it's out in the open, I
don't mind sharing. If someone asks, I
tell them so it might be useful to them
because it's not my personal property.
It's my experience. And if that can help
someone, why not share it? After all, my
life has always been devoted to the
well-being of others. For example, after
I became prime minister, I had a
bilateral
meeting at the White House with
President Obama and he had also arranged
a formal
dinner. Then as discussions between the
two governments progressed, someone
said, "Please join us for dinner." To
which another replied, "But the prime
minister doesn't
eat." This left them a bit concerned.
How do you host the leader of such a
major nation at the White House without
serving
food? When we sat down, they brought me
a glass of hot
water. I turned to President Obama and
jokingly said, "Look, my dinner has
arrived." As I placed the glass in front
of
me. Later, when I visited again, he
still
remembered. He smiled and said, "Last
time you were fasting. This time we're
having lunch. Since you're not fasting,
you'll have to eat twice as much.
Let's go to the beginning. You rose from
humble beginnings to lead the world's
largest democracy. So I think there's a
lot of people for whom this is truly
inspiring. Uh your family was of very
modest means and you grew up in a one
room house with a mud floor, your whole
family living there. Uh tell me about
your childhood. How did those humble
beginnings shape your outlook on
life? My birthplace is in
Gujarat, specifically in North Gujarat
in Masana
district in a small town called
Wnagar. Historically this town holds
great
significance. And so Bodnagar is where I
was born and completed my early
education. Looking at the
world as I understand it
today, I can reflect on my childhood and
the unique environment I grew up in.
My village had certain fascinating
aspects, some of which are quite rare
even globally.
When I was in
school, there was an elder in our
village who would
regularly tell students, "Listen kids,
wherever you go, if you
find a carved stone or you find a stone
with inscriptions on it or anything with
engravings, bring it and place it in
this corner of the
pool. Over time, my curiosity grew and I
started to understand. I realized that
my village had a rich and ancient
history. Discussions at school often
revealed more fascinating details about
its
past. Later, I learned that China even
made a film about it. I had read in a
newspaper about a film that mentioned
the Chinese philosopher Huan Tang who
had spent a considerable amount of time
in my
village having arrived there many
centuries
ago. Back then it was a major center for
Buddhist
learning. That's how I first learned
about it.
And
perhaps
around the
1400s, it was a prominent Buddhist
educational
hub. There was a victory monument from
the 12th
century, a temple from the 17th
century. And in the 16th century, two
sisters Tana and Riri who
were renowned
musicians. As I uncovered these history
traces, I grasped the depth of our
heritage. So when I became chief
minister, I initiated large scale
excavation
projects. The findings from these very
projects
confirmed that thousands of Buddhist
monks had at one time studied there.
It was a place where Buddhist, Jane and
Hindu traditions coexisted
harmoniously.
And for us, history wasn't just confined
to
books. Every stone
spoke. Every wall had a story to tell.
And
so when we began the large scale
excavation
work, we uncovered findings that hold
immense historical
significance. So far they have
discovered evidence dating back 2,800
years, proving
that this city has remained unbroken and
eternal for all those 2,800 years. They
have discovered solid proof of how its
development unfolded over these
centuries. Now an international level
museum has been established there open
to
visitors especially for archaeology
students. It has become a major area of
study. So the place where I was born
holds its own unique historical
significance. I see it as my good
fortune. Some things in life unfold
beyond our understanding. Kashi became
my realm of duty. Now Kashi is also
eternal. Kashi also known as Banaras or
Baranasi is an eternal city that
has remained vibrant and alive for
centuries.
Perhaps it was some divine design that
led a boy born in Wagar to eventually
make Kashi his realm of duty living in
the embrace of mother
Ganga. When I think about my family, my
father, my mother, my siblings, my
uncles, aunts,
grandparents, we all grew up together in
a small house.
The place we lived was likely even
smaller than where we are sitting
now. There was no window, just a small
door. That's where I was born. That's
where I grew
up. Now when people talk about
poverty, it's natural to discuss it in
the context of public life. And by those
standards, my early life was spent in
extreme
poverty. But we
never really felt the burden of
poverty. You see, someone who is used to
wearing fine
shoes will feel their
absence when they don't have them. But
for us, we had never worn shoes in our
lives. So, how would we even know that
wearing shoes was a big deal? We weren't
in a position to compare. That's just
how we lived. Our mother worked
incredibly
hard. My father,
too. He was extremely
hardworking and he was also extremely
disciplined.
Every morning around 4:00 or 4:30 a.m.
he would leave the house, walk long
distances, visit several temples, and
then reach his
shop. He wore traditional leather shoes
handmade in the
village. The shoes were very tough and
sturdy, making a distinct talk talk
sound when he walked.
People in the village used to
say that they could tell the time just
by hearing his footsteps. Oh yes, they
would
say Mr. Dhamodar is on his way. Such was
his
discipline. He worked tirelessly late
into the night. Our mother too ensured
that we never felt the struggles of our
circumstances.
But despite
everything, these challenging
circumstances of living in
scarcity never left a mark on our
minds. I remember in school the idea of
wearing shoes never even crossed my
mind. One day while I was on my way to
school, I ran into my uncle on the
way. He saw me and was surprised.
Hey, you go to school like this without
shoes. So at that time he bought me a
pair of canvas shoes and made me wear
them. Back then they must have cost
around 10 or 12
rupees.
But here's the
thing. They were white canvas shoes and
they would quickly get stained. So what
did I
do in the
evening after school was over? I would
stay back for a
while. I would go from classroom to
classroom collecting leftover pieces of
chalk that the teachers had discarded.
I would take the pieces of chalk
home, soak them in
water, mix them into a paste, and polish
my canvas shoes with it, making them
bright white
again. For me, those shoes were a
treasured possession, a symbol of great
wealth. And I don't exactly know why,
but from
childhood, our mother was extremely
particular about
cleanliness. Perhaps that's where we
inherited that habit,
too. Not sure how I picked up the habit
of dressing neatly, but it's been there
since childhood. Whatever I wore, I made
sure it looked
proper. Back then, as you can imagine,
we didn't have any arrangements for
ironing
clothes. So, instead, I would heat up
water in a copper
pot, hold it with tongs, and press my
clothes myself.
Then I'd head off to school. That's how
I lived. And I found joy in it. We never
thought about being poor or judged about
how others lived or what their struggles
were. We lived
carefree, enjoying whatever little we
had and kept working hard. Never once
did we complain about these things. And
all these aspects of my life whether you
call it fortune or
misfortune unfolded in such a way in
politics that they started coming to
light because when I was taking my oath
as chief
minister TV reporters went to my village
questioned my childhood friends went to
capture videos of my home that's when
people started asking who is this and
what background he is coming from.
Before that, very few knew much about my
life. That's just how my journey has
been. My mother possessed an innate
spirit of caring for others
well-being. It was woven into the very
fabric of her
being. She possessed knowledge of
traditional remedies and healing
practices and would treat children with
these home remedies. Every morning
before sunrise around 5:00 she would
start treating
them. So all the children and their
parents would gather at our home little
children crying and we had to wake up
early because of
it. Meanwhile, my mother would continue
treating them with care. This spirit of
service in a way was nurtured through
these experiences. A sense of empathy
for society, the desire to do good for
others. These values were instilled in
me from my
family. I believe that my life has been
shaped by my mother, my father, my
teachers, and the environment I grew up
in. There's a lot of young people
listening to this that are truly
inspired by your story. from those
humble beginnings to the leader of the
biggest democracy in the world. Uh what
can you tell to those young folks who
are struggling, who are lost in the
world, who are trying to find their way?
What advice could you give them? I want
to tell all the young people the
following. No matter
How dark the night may
seem, it is still just
night and morning is bound to
come. That's
why we need patience and
self-confidence. Yes, the challenges are
real, but I am not defined by my
circumstances.
I am here for a purpose sent by a higher
power and I am not alone. The one who
sent me is always with me. This
unwavering faith should always remain
within us. Difficulties are a test of
endurance. They are not meant to defeat
me. Hardships exist to make me stronger,
helping me grow and improve, not to
leave me feeling hopeless or
discouraged.
Personally, I see every crisis, every
challenge as an opportunity. So to all
young people, I say have patience. There
are no shortcuts in life. At our railway
stations, there hangs a
sign. For those who habitually cross the
tracks instead of using the bridge, it
reads, "Shortcut will cut you short." I
would tell young people the same.
Shortcut will cut you short. There are
no shortcuts in life. Patience and
perseverance are
essential. Whatever responsibility we
are given, we must pour our heart into
it. We should live it with passion,
enjoy the journey and find fulfillment
in it. I truly believe that if this
mindset is cultivated, it transforms
life. Similarly, abundance alone is not
enough. There is no guarantee of
success. Even a wealthy person who
indulges in comfort and idleness will
eventually wither away. Instead, he must
decide, "Yes, I may have resources
around me, but I must use my abilities
to grow them
further. I must contribute more to
society with my own strength. Even if I
am in a good position, there is still so
much more to do. Even if I am not in a
good position, there is still so much
work to do. That's what I believe. I
have also noticed that some people tend
to think I've learned enough that's
it. But one should never let the student
within them
die. Learning should never stop. I
believe that as long as I am alive, I
must have a
purpose. Perhaps I
exist to keep learning, to keep
growing. Now my mother
tongue is
Gujarati
and
we were not very familiar with the Hindi
language. Nor did we know how to speak
it eloquently or communicate
effectively.
But as a child I used to sit at my
father's tea shop and at that young age
I got the chance to meet so many
people and every time I learned
something from them I observed their
ways of speaking their expressions these
things taught me a lot even though I
wasn't in a position to apply it then I
thought if I ever get the chance why not
why shouldn't I present myself well so I
believe the desire to learn should
always remain
alive. And
um another thing I've observed is that
most
people dream about achieving
something or becoming someone. They set
big
targets and when they fall
short they feel
disappointed. That's why
Whenever I get a chance to talk to my
friends, I tell
them instead of dreaming about getting
and becoming, dream of doing
something, if you focus on doing
something and let's say your goal is to
reach 10, but you make it to eight, you
won't feel discouraged. You'll still
work toward 10 with determination.
But if your dream is only to become
something and it doesn't happen, even
your achievements may feel like a
burden. That's why we must adjust our
mindset in life. Instead of thinking
about what I got or didn't get, the
mindset should be what can I
give? Because true contentment doesn't
bloom on its
own. It grows from the depth of what you
give.
And I should say that this young kid,
one of the things I dreamed of doing is
to do this very thing to talk to you
today. So this is uh very surreal. At
17, another fascinating part of your
life. You left home and spent two years
roaming in the Himalayas searching for
purpose, for deeper truth, for God. Uh
so not much is known about this period
of your life. You lived a nomatic
minimalist existence very much like a
yogi often sleeping without a roof over
your head. Uh what are some memorable
spiritual moments, rituals, experiences
from that
time? It seems like you've put in a lot
of effort.
Look,
I look I don't usually talk much about
this but I can share a few external
aspects of
it. I grew up in a very small
town. Our life was all about being part
of a
community. We lived among people
surrounded by them. That was just how
life
was. There was a library in the village
and I used to go there often to read
books. Whenever I read something from
the books, I often found myself feeling
inspired
thinking why shouldn't I shape my own
life like that? That desire was always
there. When I used to read about Swami
Viveanandha or read about Chhatrapati
Shivaji Maharaj, I would often wonder
how did they live? How did they build
such remarkable lives? And for that I
constantly experimented on
myself. Most of my experiments were
physical in nature, testing my body's
limits.
For example, where I lived, winters
weren't too harsh, but December nights
could get quite
cold,
but
still at
night the cold would bite. It was
natural.
So
sometimes I would decide to sleep
outside in the open with nothing to
cover myself just to see how my body
endures the cold. So from a very young
age I would often experiment with my
body and uh this became a regular thing
for me.
For
me, going to the
library, reading
extensively, visiting the
pond, washing the family's clothes, and
swimming became part of my routine.
Swimming was my main physical
activity. All of these things were
deeply connected to my
life. Later, as I read Viveanand, I
became even more drawn to his teachings.
One time I read about Swami
Viveanand his mother was
ill.
So he went to Sri Ram Krishna Paramahans
for
guidance he would argue with him debate
with
him. In his early
days, he would often argue with
him, questioning everything
intellectually. He said, "My mother is
sick. If I were earning, I could take
better care of
her." Sri Ram Krishna said, "Don't
bother me with all this. Go to Goddess
Kali. She is there. Ask her for what you
need. And
so Swami Viveanand went and sat before
Goddess Kali's idol for hours and he
immersed
himself into deep
meditation. After a few hours when he
returned Ramach Krishna asked him, "So
did you request the goddess?" Swami
Vivean replied, "No, I didn't." Ramach
Krishna said go again
tomorrow. She will fulfill your request.
Ask her. He went the next day and then
again the day
after. But each
time he found
himself unable to ask for anything. His
mother was unwell and he needed help.
But when he sat before goddess Kali, he
was completely absorbed in her
presence. And yet he could not bring
himself to ask for anything. Each time
he returned empty-handed. He told Sri
Ramak Krishna, "I came back
empty-handed. I didn't ask for
anything." To stand before the divine
goddess and not be able to ask for
anything.
That moment, that experience lit a flame
inside
him. There was a spark in his
life and from
that came the spirit of
giving. I believe that perhaps
on me
too. The thought of what can I give to
the
world? Maybe true contentment comes from
giving. If my heart is only filled with
the hunger to receive, that hunger will
never
end. And within that realization came
the idea of Shiva and living being as
one.
If you wish to serve Shiva, serve all
living
beings, recognize the unity between the
divine and the living. True non-duality
is experienced through this
realization. I would often lose myself
in such
thoughts. My mind naturally drifting in
that direction.
I remember an
incident in the neighborhood where we
lived just
outside. There was a Lord Shiva
temple. One day a saint came to stay
there. So that saint used to engage
in meditation and spiritual practices. I
started feeling drawn to him thinking
perhaps he possessed some spiritual
energy. I had only read about Swami
Viveanand never seen such figures in
real
life. During Navatri he was fasting and
he had placed sorghum grains on his
hand. A common tradition in our
culture in a way sprouting seeds on your
palms and sleeping like that for 9 or 10
days. It was a kind of spiritual bow and
this saint was observing it during those
same days.
My maternal uncle's family was preparing
for my aunt's wedding. Everyone from my
home was going to my uncle's house for
the
wedding. Now for any child, visiting an
uncle's house is always exciting. But I
told my family, I'm not going. I'll stay
here and I will take care of Swami G.
Since he has these grains on his hand,
he can't eat or drink. So I will take
care of him. So as a child, I chose not
to attend the wedding. I stayed back
serving Swami G instead. Somehow my mind
was naturally drawn in that
direction. At times whenever soldiers
from my village came home during their
holidays, they would walk around in
their uniforms with such pride. I would
run behind them all day thinking, "Look
at them. They are serving the nation."
So there was always a strong feeling
inside me to do something meaningful. I
didn't fully understand what it would
be and I didn't have a road map. There
was a hunger within me, a deep longing
to understand life, to explore its
meaning. So I just set out and began the
journey. During my time in the
mission, I came across remarkable
saints. They showered me with love and
blessings. Among them, I formed a
special bond with Swami Atmastan G. He
lived for nearly 100 years a life full
of wisdom and service. In his final
years, I deeply wished for him to stay
with me at the prime minister's
residence. But his responsibilities were
vast and he couldn't come. However, back
when I was chief minister, he used to
visit and I was fortunate to receive his
blessings and guidance. He once looked
at me and
said, "Why have you come here? You have
a greater purpose to
fulfill. Is your priority your own
well-being or is it the welfare of
society? Whatever Swami Viveanandan said
was for the betterment of
society. He said you are meant to serve
others. So
I I remember feeling a bit disheartened
at that moment. I had come seeking
guidance but all I got were words.
So I continued on my journey wandering
from place to place. I spent time in the
Himalayas embracing the solitude of the
mountains. I met many remarkable
individuals along the way. Some were
great aesthetics, people who had
renounced
everything. But still my mind remained
restless. Perhaps it was my age of
curiosity of wanting to learn to
understand.
It was a new
experience, a world shaped by the
mountains, by ice, by the towering
snow-covered peaks. But all of this
played a huge role in shaping
me. It strengthened me from within and
enabled me to discover my inner power.
practicing meditation, waking up in the
sacred pre-dawn hours, bathing in the
cold, serving people with devotion and
naturally tending to elderly saints
became a seamless part of who I
was. Once a natural calamity struck the
region, and I immediately devoted myself
to helping the villages. So these were
the saints and spiritual masters with
whom I stayed from time to time.
I never remained in one place for long.
I kept moving, constantly
wandering. That was the kind of life I
lived. And for people who don't know
that moment in the Ramach Krishna
mission ashram with uh with the monk
Swami Admashananda as you mentioned, he
helped steer you towards a life of
service. So there's another possible
life that could have been where you take
Syasa, you give away everything and
you're a monk. So we could have had a
monk Narendra Modi and a prime minister
Narendra Modi and he helped you take the
decision to live a life of service at
every
scale. From the outside people may call
me a leader, some call me the prime
minister, others call me the chief
minister. And that's how they see me
from their
perspective. But deep within there is
only an unwavering spiritual
commitment. The Modi who lovingly helped
his mother care for children during
their treatments, tending to them with
patience and compassion.
The Modi who wandered through the
Himalayas and the Modi who now works
from this seat of
responsibility. They are all tied
together by the same inner
consistency. Every action is dedicated
to serving
others. People may see a stark
difference between a saint and a leader,
but to me there is no real difference.
Yes, the attire changes, the way of life
changes, the words spoken throughout the
day shift and the nature of work
evolves, but the core of my being
remains unchanged. Carrying out every
responsibility with the same sense of
calm focus and dedication. Another part
of your life of who you are is you've
spoken your whole life about putting
your nation of India above all else.
When you were eight, you joined the RSS
which espouses the idea of Hindu
nationalism. Can you tell me about RSS
and what impact they had
on who you are and the development of
your political
ideas? Ever since
childhood, I always had the habit of
staying engaged in something or the
other. I remember there was a man named
Makoshi.
I don't quite recall his full name. I
think he was part of the service group
Makoshi Sony or something like
that. He used to carry a small drumlike
instrument called the tambourine with
him. And he used to sing patriotic songs
in his deep powerful voice. Whenever he
came to our village, he would hold
programs in different places. I would
run after him like a crazy fan just to
listen to his songs.
I would spend entire nights listening to
their patriotic songs. I enjoyed it. I
don't even know why, but I just did. In
our village, there was a branch of the
Rashtria sang where we played sports and
sang patriotic songs. Something about
those songs touched me deeply. They
stirred something inside me and that's
how I eventually became part of the RSS.
One of the core values that were
instilled in us at RSS
was whatever you do, do it with a
purpose. Even while studying, study with
the goal of learning enough to
contribute to the
nation. Even when you exercise, do it
with the purpose of strengthening your
body to serve the nation. This is what
we were taught. And today, RSS is a
massive organization. It is now nearing
its 100th anniversary.
Such a massive volunteer
organization likely
doesn't exist anywhere else in the
world. Millions of people are connected
to
it. But understanding
RSS is not that
simple. One must make an effort to truly
grasp the nature of its
work. More than
anything, the RSS provides you with a
clear direction toward what can truly be
called a purpose in
life. Secondly, the nation is
everything and serving the people is
akin to serving God. This is what has
been said since the Vic era. What our
sages have said, what Vivean said and
what the RSS
echoes. A volunteer is told that the
inspiration he gains from
RSS, it's not just about attending the
one-hour session or wearing the uniform.
What matters is what you do for society.
And today, inspired by that spirit, many
initiatives are thriving. Like some
volunteers established an organization
called
Savaharti. This organization serves the
slums and settlements where the poorest
people live, which they call service
communities.
To my
knowledge, they run
approximately 125,000 service projects
without any government
assistance solely through community
support. They spend time
there, teach the children, care for
their health, instill good
values, and work towards improving
cleanliness in these communities.
Running 125,000 social service projects
is no small feat.
Similarly, some volunteers nurtured by
RSS are dedicated to serving tribal
communities through Vanvasi Kalyan
Asham. They live among the tribal
people working for their welfare. They
have established over 70,000 one teacher
schools in remote tribal regions. There
are also some people in America who show
their support for this cause.
and contribute donations of about $10 or
$15. And they say skip a Coca-Cola this
month. Don't drink Coca-Cola and donate
that money to an one teacher school
instead. Now imagine 70,000 one teacher
schools dedicated to educating tribal
children. Some volunteers have founded
Bidyabharati to revolutionize education.
Today they run nearly 25,000
schools educating around 3 million
students and I believe that millions of
students have benefited from this
initiative receiving quality education
at an incredibly low
cost. Alongside education values are
prioritized and students remain grounded
learning skills so they don't become a
burden on society. That is in every
aspect of life whether it's women, youth
or even laborers the RSS has played a
role in terms of membership size if I
may say so. We have the Indian labor
union it has
around
50,000
unions with millions of members across
the country. Perhaps in terms of scale
there is no bigger labor union in the
world. But what's interesting is the
approach they
take.
Historically, leftist ideologies have
fueled labor movements
worldwide. And what has been their
slogan? Workers of the world, unite. The
message was clear. Unite first and then
we'll deal with everything else. But
what do the labor unions run by RSS
trained volunteers believe in?
They say workers unite the
world. Others
say workers of the world unite. And we
say workers unite the
world. It may seem like just a small
shift in words, but it represents a huge
ideological transformation. The
volunteers who come from the
RSS follow their own interests, nature,
and inclination.
And in doing so, they strengthen and
promote these kinds of activities. When
you observe these
initiatives, you'll see how over the
past 100 years, the
RSS has dedicated
itself with the discipline and devotion
of a
seeker, staying away from the glare of
mainstream attention. I feel blessed to
gain life's values from such a sacred
organization. Through the RSS, I found a
life of
purpose. Then I was fortunate to spend
some time among the saints which gave me
a strong spiritual foundation. I found
discipline and a life of purpose and
through the guidance of saints I gained
spiritual grounding. Swami
Atmastanandanda and others like him have
held my hand throughout my journey
constantly guiding me at every step. The
teachings
of Ramach Krishna Mishan Swami
Viveanand and the servicedriven
philosophy of the RSS have played a
crucial role in shaping
me. But they've also helped push the
idea of India. What is the idea
uh that unifies India? What is India as
a nation? What is the foundational idea
that unites all of these
desperate worlds and communities and
cultures? What would it
be?
Look, India is a cultural
identity. It is a civilization.
that dates back thousands of
years. Consider the vastness of
India. Over a 100
languages, thousands of dialects.
India is so diverse that we have a
saying that every 20 miles the language
changes, customs change, cuisine
changes, even clothing styles shift from
region to region, from the south to the
north. You will see immense diversity
across the country. But if you dig a
little
deeper, you will
find a common thread. For example, the
stories of Lord Ram can be heard
everywhere in India. His name echoes in
every corner of the country. But if you
look
closely from Tamil Nadu to Jammu and
Kashmir, you will always find people
whose names include Ram in some
form. In Gujarat, he might be called
Ramay. in Tamil Nadu
Ramachandra and in Maharashtra Ram
Bhau. This unique cultural bond is what
unites India as one
civilization. Takes
something as simple
as bathing in
water. We have a
ritual where all the rivers of India are
remembered.
They chant I am bathing with the waters
of all these rivers Ganga Yamuna
Godavari
Saraswati Narmmad Synindhu Caviri it's a
sentiment that unites a nation and we
have a long tradition of making such
resolutions at the beginning of
important events and
rituals and the resolution itself can
present a historical
record and in so doing serve as a way of
collecting and preserving historical
data. It has been an incredibly unique
system guided meticulously by our
scriptures. When someone makes a
resolution, performs a puja or even
during weddings, we start by invoking
the entire universe beginning with jambu
bat
kandry and gradually narrow it down to
the village then mentioning the specific
family and finally we invoke the family
deity. This practice is still alive
happening daily in every corner of
India.
But sadly the western and global models
began viewing
nations only as administrative systems.
India however has had a variety of
administrative systems throughout
history. Many systems were fragmented,
scattered and varied across regions.
Kings and rulers were numerous. But
India's unity
lay in cultural bonds. Pilgrimage
traditions played a key role in
preserving this unity. Shankarachara
established the four pilgrimage sites.
Even today millions of people travel
from one place to another for
pilgrimage. In Kashi you'll find people
who bring water from Ramsheshwaram to
Kashi and take water from Kashi to
Ramshwaram. Even if
you look at our Hindu calendar, you'll
find so many things across the country
that you can't even
imagine. If we look at the historical
foundation of modern
India along with yourself, Mahatma
Gandhi is one of the most important
humans to
have ever lived but certainly one of the
most important humans to the history of
India.
What do you admire about Mahatma
Gandhi? As I had mentioned
before, I was born in
Gujarat and Gujarati is my mother
tongue. Mahatma Gandhi was also born in
Gujarat. His native language was
Gujarati
too. He pursued a career as an
attorney and lived overseas for several
years. He had plenty of great
opportunities.
But the deep sense of duty within
him along with the values instilled by
his family led him to give up all
comforts and devote his life to serving
the people of India. He joined the
struggle for India's
independence. And to this
day he continues to deeply
influence the life of every Indian in
some way.
Mahatma Gandhi tried
to live by his principles and practiced
what he preached. For
example, he strongly advocated for
cleanliness and practiced it
himself. And he made it a point to
discuss cleanliness wherever he went.
Another key factor to consider is
India's fight for
independence.
India was ruled by the
muggles. the British and several other
foreign
powers. Despite being bound by the
shackles of colonial rule for
centuries, the flame of independence
burned
brightly. In every corner and nook of
India, never fading, always fueling the
desire for freedom.
Millions of people sacrificed their
lives so the light of freedom could
shine on India. They laid down their
lives for freedom. Sacrificing their
youth behind prison
walls. Mahatma Gandhi also fought for
India's independence but in his own way.
Indeed the other freedom fighters were
brave warriors and devoted sons of
mother India. They came, they fought and
their martyrdom immortalized them and
they did indeed have a lasting impact.
But it was Mahatma Gandhi who awakened a
nation leading a mass movement fueled by
truth. And he wo even a sweeper into the
very fabric of the freedom struggle. He
told teachers their work was part of the
freedom struggle. He told the people
spinning thread and weaving clothes they
were freedom fighters.
He told those tending to lepers that
their service was a step toward India's
freedom. He viewed every task as a vital
thread in the fabric of India's
independence movement. And this
transformed India's common man into a
soldier in the quest for
freedom. Gandhi forged a mass movement
so immense that the British could never
fully grasp it.
The British never imagined that a pinch
of salt from the Dandy March could spark
a massive revolution and he made it
happen. And his life, presence, style,
mannerisms all left a profound
impact and I have
seen many of his stories evolve into
timeless legends. I recall an incident
from a roundt
conference. Yeah. I believe he was
attending
a roundt
conference. He was supposed to meet King
George at the Buckingham
Palace draped in his breachcloth.
Mahatma Gandhi made his way to the
palace. Many people were amazed that he
had showed up in that attire to meet the
king.
Gandhi remarked he didn't need to wear a
lot of clothes. He said your king is
wearing enough clothes for the both of
us. This was the whimsical charm of his
nature. Mahatma Gandhi possessed many
remarkable qualities. His call for
unity and recognition
of the people's
strength still resonates with me. In
everything I
do, I strive to include the common
man and to ensure the participation of
as many as
possible. I don't believe in leaving
everything to the government.
I am a firm believer in the power of
social
change. So
he was probably one of the greatest
leaders of the 20th
century. You are one of the greatest
leaders of the 21st
century. Those two centuries are very
different. and you have
been
masterful in uh the game in the art of
geopolitics. So let me ask you, you have
found a balance. So when when
negotiating on the world stage with
super powerful
nations, is it better to be loved or
feared? It seems like you are a
masterclass of being loved by everybody,
but everybody knows and feels the
strength. So finding that balance, can
you speak to that
balance? First and
foremost, I don't think this is a fair
comparison.
Mahatma Gandhi
wasn't just
a 20th century
leader. His relevance transcends
centuries. Mahatma Gandhi's
legacy will last for centuries to come
and he remains relevant to date. As far
as I am concerned, I have a
responsibility to
fulfill. Yet the weight of that
responsibility pales in comparison to my
country. I am nowhere near as great as
my
country. And my strength lies not in my
name but in the backing of 1.4 billion
Indians and thousands of years of
timeless culture and
heritage. So wherever I go, I carry with
me the essence of thousands of years of
Vic tradition.
The timeless teachings of Swami
Viveanand and the
blessings, dreams and aspirations of 1.4
billion
Indians. When I shake hands with a world
leader, it's not
Modi but 1.4 billion Indians doing so.
So this isn't my strength at all. It is
rather the strength of India.
You see, I recall something that
happened all the way back in
2013. It was when my party declared I
would be their prime ministerial
candidate. My critics often tried to
corner me on one
point. It became a topic of widespread
discussion. Modi is nothing more than a
state
leader. What does he know of foreign
policy? Does he even understand global
geopolitics? This was on everyone's lips
and I was asked this question in every
interview. I gave a very well thoughtout
answer at the time. I said I won't lay
out my entire foreign policy in an
interview nor is it needed.
That
said, India
will neither allow itself to be looked
down
upon nor will it ever look up to
anyone. India will now see eye to eye
with her
counterparts. This was my belief in
2013 and it still lies at the heart of
my foreign policy. For me, the country
always comes first.
However, to belittle someone or speaking
ill of
others is neither part of my cultural
values nor my
traditions. More