Kind: captions
Language: en
I write the script in December. January,
Josh Arnett, Marley Shelton come down,
fly Franken. We're shooting for 10 hours
on my green screen. We shoot that
opening sequence. Incredible opening
sequence. And the visual look, we've
never seen that. I want to just take
this and make it move. I just want the
comic to move. Any other studio would
just go make it look like any gritty
crime movie and they would they would
miss the point that it's the visual is
half of it. I want it to look just like
this because it would be the boldest
movie anyone's seen because that's how
it reads when I read the book. It's like
if this was moving, it would be the most
phenomenal movie. Just by being around
him and working with him, you get by
osmosis, you learn stuff and it just ups
your game because they're just swing way
beyond you. Jim Cameron was like that.
So like when I first met him, I was
trying to impress the hell out of him,
you know, cuz I was such a big fan. I
was about to go do this and I went,
"Hey, I just took a 3-day steady cam
course cuz I can't afford a steadyic cam
operator, so I'm going to operate
steadyic cam myself on this bar." Now,
if he was just my peer, he'd say, "Oh, I
I did the same thing, and I'm going to
do the same thing." That that would be
like hanging out with somebody of your
ilk. But you don't you want somebody
who's above that. Do you know what he
said? He goes, "I bought a steady cam,
but not to operate it. I'm going to take
it apart and design a better
one." Us mere mortals trying to learn
how to operate the camera. He's
designing all new systems. That's the
guy you want to hang out with, not
someone who's doing what you're doing.
We put so much of the world around them.
Like when you see the city, we put like
a blue screen way in the back to just
make the city keep going. But we built
the sets there, the town, we built the
real set so everything was very tangible
and real. And that way she had to fit
into that world and be as real as that.
Because if it was all done in CG, well
then now you can fudge everything. But
if you put her in a real environment,
that's a real challenge. And just like
with our movies, you watch it all fall
apart. You watch this thing blow up. You
watch this thing not work. everything
just falls apart in front of your face.
Then that's when you roll up your
sleeves and creatively figure out a way
around it. And by the end, you have a
result that's better than what you
sought out. Sift through the ashes of
your failure, and you'll find the key to
your next success is in there. But if
you're not looking for it, you don't
find it.
The following is a conversation with
Robert Rodriguez, a legendary filmmaker
and creator of Sens City, El Mariachi,
Desperado, Spy Kids, Machete, From
Dustel Dawn, Alita, Battle Angel, The
Faculty, and many more. Robert inspired
a generation of independent filmmakers
with his first film, El Mariachi, that
he famously made for just
$7,000. on that film. In many sins, he
was not only the director, he was also
the writer, producer, cinematographer,
editor, visual effects supervisor, sound
designer, composer. Basically, the full
stack of filmm. He has shown incredible
versatility across genres including
action, horror, family films, and sci-fi
with some epic collaborations with
Quinton Tarantino, James Cameron, and
many other legendary actors and
filmmakers. He has often operated at the
technological cutting edge, pioneering
using HD film making, digital backloths,
and 3D tech. And always through all of
that, he's been a champion of
independent film making, running his own
studio here in Austin, Texas, which in
many ways is very far away from
Hollywood. He's building a new thing now
called Brass Knuckle Films, where he's
opening up the film making process so
that fans can be a part of it as he
creates his next four action films. I'll
probably go hang out at his film studio
a bunch as this is all coming to life.
His work has inspired a very large
number of people, including me, to be
more creative in whatever pursuit you
take on in life and have fun doing it.
This is the Lex Freedman podcast. To
support it, please check out our
sponsors in the description. And now,
dear friends, here's Robert
Rodriguez. Has there been a a time when
there was like one take and you only
have one take to get it right? Oh, all
the time where you're just like or just
you know how long it'll take to reset
and you're just But then you know what
you you you got to just work with what
you got. You know, you got to look work
with your result. You get nervous or no?
In that moment, oh yeah, you're you're
nervous going like just I hope it goes
off cuz then to fix it I'll have to go
do a bunch of other steps which we don't
have time for. But a lot of times, you
know, I've just learned that if
something happens, it's just meant to be
that way. And uh and I got used to doing
things in one take and and just living
with it. It didn't bother me. In one
movie, it was even a low budget movie,
they had um rigged a car to implode cuz
I was going to throw a guy at it. So, we
needed a car to implode and then we're
going to throw them and marry it
together, right? And um the stunt and
the the car guy goes, "Yeah, we're going
to have three cars rigged." Three cars?
just why you have to prove well in case
one doesn't work and then we have a
second one after third. we don't have
all night to go shoot take after take
we're doing just just get one car and if
it doesn't work we'll figure it out
because you don't have time to do it
again sometimes it's such a long setup
so I go no I'm I'm good with just going
what in a grind house movie they only
had one take so that'll make it more
authentic when it all goes to shit when
it fails you just what's the next
thought so I'll tell you two things
happened on Destl Done first was okay
you know how those explosions when
somebody walks away in slow motion from
an explosion that's become kind
You know that started with Desperado.
Desperado is the first. If you look at
all the montages, Desp. That's right.
That is the meme because it was an
accident was just supposed to be it was
just two grenades, not a nuclear bomb.
He throws them over the side. I just
wanted like some body parts or you know
something to fly up some shrapnel. I
literally said shrapnel and my effects
guy was so ragged running so ragged. We
get to there and I go, "Do you have any
body parts and stuff we can throw up or
or something you can shoot up, Pat? I
didn't realize it's so high to get past
that second floor." He's like, "No, I
don't. I can give you a fireball. I can
give you a nice, you know, um, fireball
with propane, but it burns away really
quick. Like, how fast? Like that, but
it'll be big and orange. Okay, we we'll
shoot it in slow motion so it lasts a
little longer because it just goes poof.
So, I told the actors, I don't know how
big this fireball is going to be, but
just walk really fast and just look real
determined and then just keep walking.
Don't stop and turn around cuz you might
get your eyebrows singed. So, they take
off and boom, it goes and in slow motion
it looks great, right? Mhm. I remember
showing it to Jim Cameron before it came
out and his hand went up like you never
seen that before, you know. 6 months
later, Dust Told Dawn came out. So I I I
liked how much it looked so much that in
Dust Told Dawn I did it again. So those
movies came out within 6 months of each
other. That's why it turned into a thing
cuz people saw it. And so I thought, how
about for the opening of George Clooney
and Quinton walking out of the uh gas
station that we have the whole place
just blowing up and they just keep
talking like it's not happening, you
know? like take it another step further
so I'm not just doing the same thing.
Okay, that one it's like, okay, you're
going to walk out and it's all in one
take. So, we're only going to do one
take. We're going to blow the thing up.
We're going to start with just, you
know, some smaller explosions and then
when they're further away and it's
safer, then we'll do the big fireballs.
Mhm. So, we're going and you're nervous
cuz like if one of them trips up a line
and you know the pressure's on them.
It's not just you that's nervous. You're
nervous for them. and they're the ones
who got to walk out, do that whole
speech, get in the car, and drive away.
What if the car doesn't start? What? You
know, there's a lot of things that could
happen. Well, guess what happens? The
thing you would not
expect, they go in, they come out, they
start talking, shoot it. It's perfect.
Great. We can move on. And the camera
guy goes, I don't know what happened,
but just like you had a little snafu
here. He goes, we have we have an
autofocus on the steady cam. You know,
we have a focus thing. Oh, it just went
like this. I I felt it go whack all the
way out of focus and whack for a second
back. Like it just reset itself. I don't
know why it did that, you know, cuz it's
radio controlled and we can't tell cuz
we're shooting film, you know. So, we're
like, "Oh shit, let's watch the
dailies." Sure enough. Let's see if we
can get maybe I can scratch the film
right there. No, it goes completely out
of focus and back in focus within a
second. Now, we got to reshoot it. So,
we have to wait till we're back in that
location. We rigged it for two more
takes just in case. So that thing that
was supposed to be the one take is three
takes. The other thing that happened was
the front of the Dust Till Dawn
bar, that same guy that did those
explosions, he packed a bunch of
explosives behind the actors, when the
actors come running out of the of the
bar at the end of the movie and there's
an explosion through the door cuz all
the vampires are blowing up. He didn't
just He put like 10 times the amount of
stuff. It blew out. You see it in the
movie. You see this huge fireball going
up. And if you watch closely, you see it
already start to catch the whole place
on fire. The whole front of that which
just foam catching on fire and I cut
just before you see that it's on fire.
And we that was the first shot at that
bar because we weren't going to start
shooting the other stuff till night. So
the first shot is that and the set's
ruined. burned to a
crisp. The neon lights blew up. So, we
couldn't even shoot. Chich goes, "Well,
I guess I'm not doing my speech
tonight." And but right away, this is
what this is what happens. My first ad,
Doug Arnikowski comes over to me and I
go over to him. The guys came out with
the fire hoses. The fire hoses weren't
even adding any water. Like, the thing
was just scorching. The whole production
design team was in tears cuz they had
just spent weeks building this thing and
it was up in smoke and
charred. I said, "Let's just keep
shooting. Let's just keep shooting
because it looks really kind of cool
like this." Yeah, they're going to have
to come repair it and we'll have to come
back. But it's all black and char.
That's why that whole scene with George
Clooney and Cheich and the the
building's black. We didn't go over
there and touch that up. That's real
flame that burned and it ended up
looking great. So then the next week
when we came back to shoot that other
shot that didn't work, we came back and
they had repaired it and we shot all the
night stuff which is the majority of the
stuff in front of it. So sometimes you
got to roll with it and then and look
look at the blessing you get because of
there's a mistake. You probably actually
got a better take by doing it later with
them and then you had this incredible
look for the end of the movie that
looked apocalyptic. If it had looked
just clean, you would have actually seen
that it was kind of a foam set. This
made it look better. So, I kind of let
the universe push you where you're
supposed to go. Just roll with it. You
got to roll with it because you don't
know what the grand plan is. You have
your plan. Just know it's probably all
going to fall apart. It's just like the
movies. You come up with your plan of
what you want to accomplish. That's like
your script. Then you go scout your
location and figure out what your
project's going to be, you know, and you
go try to make it as bulletproof as
possible. Then you go to do your
project. And just like with our movies,
you watch it all fall apart. You watch
this thing blow up. You watch this thing
not work. everything just falls apart in
front of your face. Then that's when you
roll up your sleeves and creatively
figure out a way around it. You turn
chicken shit into chicken salad and by
the end you have a result that's better
than what you sought out. But that's the
process and that's life and that's wash,
rinse, repeat the rest of your life.
That's what everything's going to be
like. It's just like a movie cuz when
you think about it, you're writing a
story for a film and you're also writing
the story of your life at the same time.
Like how how are you going to react to
things? Well, how do you make your
character react to things? You make him
kind of superhuman. Why don't you just
make yourself that way? You're writing
your own story. And you start really
seeing the more you get into
storytelling that life imitates art and
art imitates life, but the process is
also the same. So, you write the story,
the script, and then you have it collide
with the chaos of reality. And in that
moment, we said you see the chicken shit
like you have to be able to keep your
eyes open. You have to notice. You have
to do that. Wait a minute. Okay. Stuff
changed.
Where's the not to be cliche about it,
but where's the silver lining of this?
Where's the path to actually make
something good out of this? And that's a
skill, right? I call it, and it's one of
my favorite stories. I was doing one of
these talks and I said, "Come talk about
creativity." I go, I understand cuz a
lot of people read my book, Rebels Had a
Crew and told me, "Oh, it made me be a
filmmaker." But a lot of people said it
helped me start my own business because
they just see how you can go be
entrepreneurial like that and go where
no one else is going. And I'm giving all
this talk about this kind of positive
stuff. And this one woman goes, "You're
real positive, but what do I tell myself
when I just wasted a year and a half of
my life doing something that didn't
work?" And I was like, "That's a real
negative way to ask that. Can you just
rephrase the question a little more
positively before I even attempt to
answer it?" Because already her point of
view is is exactly what you're saying.
She's not looking at all. She's just
concentrating on what what didn't follow
her plan and not seeing the gift of
everything else that's there. So she
goes very reluctantly. It was so
perfect. I wish we had filmed it. She
goes, "I learned a good lesson the hard
way." And I said, "That still sucks."
And I say, "When you follow your
instinct, like if you follow your own
instinct to go start a business or go
make this movie or whatever, it wasn't
someone saying, "Go over there and
you'll make a million dollars." You
know, it was your instinct and you fail.
Sometimes the only way across the river
is to slip on the first two rocks. You
fail. You have to really sift through.
It's like the silver lining, but I call
it sift through the ashes of your
failure and you'll find the key to your
next success is in there. But if you're
not looking for it, you don't find it.
I'm going to tell you one. And I tell
him the four room story. I said, I made
a movie called Four
Rooms. I It's didn't make any money,
right? When Quinton asked me, hey, do
you want to make a movie with me and two
two other filmmakers? It's an anthology.
It's on New Year's Eve. It's in a hotel.
You have to use the Bill Hop. We're not
going to know what each other's making.
And we make it. We put it together. My
hand went up right away. Just
instinctually, shit, that sounds Yeah,
I'll do that. I'll go make that with
you. Now, should I ask the audience? I
like to throw it to the audience and
her. Should I have not raised my hand
that quick? Shouldn't I have done a
little studying first or should I just
go blind instinct or should you do
instinct with some studying? Okay. Well,
I could have gone and studied and I
would have found that anthologies never
work. Like even when it's Copala,
Scorsesei, Woody Allen, they bomb
because people can't quite rip the hand.
What is it? Twilight Zone. I don't want
to go see that. But that's not I still
said, "Yeah, I I I think I should just
still go by Instinct." So, my instinct
was to raise my hand. We go make that
movie cuz I love short
films. I made like bedhead and short
films. And I thought, "Oh, here's a way.
If this works, I can make short films in
anthologies and I can have the best of
both world." And by the way, anthologies
is when there's multiple more than
multiple one story. Yeah. One movie.
Just so if you did the research, you
would know that very few people ever got
that to work. Yeah. the audience can't
quite rep the render and then it feels
like the movie starting three times, you
know? So, I make that movie, it
bombs. Now, I could feel real bad about
that, but if you really think about it,
you go, "Well, why did I sign up for it?
Did I raise my hand because I thought it
was going to go be this big financial
success?" No, I did it to work with my
friends, to do something creative, to
try something, but that's still not good
enough. I need to really sift through
the ashes. And if I look through the
ashes of that failure, I find two keys
to my biggest successes in there. While
I was on the set, they said it has to be
New Year's. So, I thought, I'm just
going to do like bed. I'm going to have
two little kids that are running around
in this room and we have to use the bell
hop as a babysitter. Well, it's New
Year's. Let's dress everybody in tuxedos
cuz it's New Year's. They're all going
to go out, but the parents leave without
him. When I saw Antonio and his wife, I
thought, "Wow, they look like a really
cool international spy couple. What if
they were spies and these two little
kids who one of them keeps falling
asleep on the set. He's so young. They
can barely tie their shoes. They don't
know parents are spies. They have to go
save them. Okay, there's five of those
movies now, right? The other one was, I
really love making short films. I really
want this anthology thing to work. What
if it's three stories, like a three
director, not four? Same director, not
four different directors. I'm going to
try it again. Why on earth would I try
it again? Well, because I had already
done one and figured out how I could do
it better, and that's sincity. Those are
by far two of my biggest successes that
came directly from that failure. So, I
always say follow your instinct. If it
doesn't work, just go. Sometimes the
only way across the river is to slip on
the first two rocks. So, what is where's
the key in that in the ashes of the
failure? Because if I had an instinct,
that means I was on the right track. I
didn't get the result I want. That's
because the result might be something
way bigger that I don't have the vision
for and the universe is pushing me that
way. By the way, a lot of people that
look back to Four Rooms see a lot of
creative genius in there. So, you say it
flopped. It flopped financially.
Financially, but you know, there's so
many ways to
measure. But, like I said, like I like I
would say, well, it was successful
because, you know, even Rodri said,
"Hey, you furnished my favorite room."
You know, I was like, "Hey, that's I
could take that." But now that I think
there's something else still there. I
keep sifting and it's like, "Oh, yeah.
Two big successes came from that. It's a
amazing lesson to have because it makes
you feel better about failure. Think of
like The Thing by John Carpenter. You
put that movie out the same weekend as
ET. That thing bombed. Critics were
calling it pornography, you know,
because of all the all the weird special
effects and audiences didn't go either.
And he thought he made a great movie.
So, you know, it makes you question your
instincts. Well, 10 years later, turns
out, oh, it's a classic. So, sometimes
it takes the audience a while. So if you
have some kind of failure on something,
you don't let it knock you down. Just go
maybe in 10 years they'll think it's
great. I'm just going to commit to
making a body of work. A body of work.
Some will succeed. Some will
overperform. Some will underperform.
It's not your job. You just want to be a
creative person. Just create. I I told
you just create stop thinking about
movie per movie and worrying so much
about each one or project to project if
you're a business person. just commit to
making a body of work like an artist
would do and you don't you don't know
what the masterpieces are going to be or
which you know someone's going to come
and say oh that that one that bombed I
there is some really creative stuff in
there and it's not for you to decide you
just go and do it and sometimes I think
it takes some time to process the
failure to make sense of it like uh at
least for me don't rush making sense of
what didn't work what lessons do I take
from it how do I sift through the ashes
as you said. Yeah. Like it takes time.
You have to sleep on it a bunch.
Sometimes it's right there and then
sometimes you come back, revisit it, you
know, later cuz you might not have had
some information you have now that makes
you look at it a lot differently. Like
when I did I just uh did the audio book
for Rebel Without a Crew, which I thank
you for that by the way. I hadn't read
it since I wrote it. So I didn't
remember a lot of the details. And you
actually It's voiced by you. I voiced
it. So I was reading it real time. Yeah.
I highly recommend people because you
comment, you add additional commas to
it. It's great. Most of the time I'm
laughing because I can't believe how
crazy that story is. I forgot a lot of
details and when you're younger, you
know, when you're 21, 22, 6 months feels
like 6 years. I didn't realize how short
that window was until I reread it. And
how impossible most that is. But you see
some places where a setup falls in my
lap and then pays off immediately in a
big way, like magic over and over again.
It's clear I don't know what I'm doing.
It's clear the universe is just pushing
you places. So, you can't fight it
because I remember I was really
disappointed and it says in the in the
diary, I'm really bummed that I go home
that Christmas not having sold it to the
Spanish home video market, which was my
goal. I walked home penniless and I was
like, merry Christmas. Feel like a
freaking failure. Good thing I didn't
sell it then. You know, with time, you
look back and you go, "Wow, I got an
agent the next month." He wasn't even
going to help me sell it. He said, "Oh,
if you can get 20,000 for it, take it."
I chased those people down for those
contracts, Spanish market for months and
they never answered me back and then
Colombian ended up buying it for like 10
times as much and we made a re we
released it and and did a sequel and did
another sequel. If you look back in
time, good thing I didn't get my way. My
way had had this for a vision and it
needed to do that which you would never
know you know you don't know that going
through. So just if you don't have the
answer right away or even in 10 years,
go maybe it's coming in 20 years. Don't
let anything slow you down. Just keep
plowing forward, committing to making
your thing happen. Don't don't get shook
up by something that you might not have
an answer for. Yeah. Every aspect of
your journey is super inspiring. We'll
talk about it. Let's go to the
beginning. There's a few technical
things that are fascinating about your
beginning. So, you started making films
when you were very young. Yeah. With an
old Super 8 camera and you were editing
on a VCR. You see, I've met a lot of
filmmakers who, you know, they start a
certain way, but then they finish
another way. They get to be big
filmmakers and all that. I still do it
that way. Like, I still I like doing
things that way. I have a new company
called Brass Knuckle Films where the
audience can actually participate by
investing this being investors in these
movies that are done the same way.
They're action films like we did with
Mariachi, but 10 to 30 million. It
doesn't take a lot of money to start a
billion dollar franchise. You know, like
John Wick only cost 20 million the first
one. Second one was 40. Third one was
80. Fourth one was 100 because the
audience kept growing and growing. By
the way, you say, you know, 20 million
like it's not a lot of money. We should
for an action film. That's right. But
also, we should say that El Mariachi,
the fil the the film on which to book
Rebel Without a Crew is $7,000 movie.
So, let's put it all in context. But,
you know, you know, you're going to hire
bigger actors. You can get a big actor
like Tiana Reeves for a $20 million
movie. You know, I asked Jim, I said,
Jim Cameron, I said, you know, like
Terminator cost 5 million. He goes, I
wish we had that much. He had less than
5 million for that. So, you can start a
billion dollar franchise using these
methods and uh and with the audience
investing, they get to make money on
them. And this what I'm going to say now
about how I started. You see that DNA of
how I give out, you know, I want people
to know how I did things with Rebel
Without a Crew or with these methods
that I started with. You see, that's how
we kept going. Hollywood spends way too
much. And when you can make stuff for
less, your profit margin is much better.
So, when I first started, I didn't have
any money. So, I still play like I don't
have money. So, I had Super Eight. My
dad had a Super Eight camera, but I
couldn't afford it. I shot two rolls
that you had to get. You had to buy the
film, shoot two minutes. I shot two
rolls of that. It's another same amount
of money that it cost to buy it,
whatever that was, 12 bucks or whatever,
to develop it. You get it. There's no
sound. Most of the shit's out of focus,
you know. But then my dad, who sold
cookware, had a VCR, one of the first
VCRs, home VCRs for the market that he
would play his sales tapes to his
salesman. And it came with a camera
attached like this cable you got coming
out. Imagine if that had to go into your
VCR for you to even see what it's
shooting. And this is old camera, manual
focus, manual iris and 12T cable. And I
would start making movies with that
instead. Now I have for $8 I have a
2hour erasable tape of sound and
picture. So I got into digital basically
really early. I was doing which was
really frowned upon back then and and
continued to be all the way to when I
was using it for real in the early 2000s
before everyone realized oh that's the
future. Yeah. That's fascinating cuz you
were a rebel in that way too using data.
Yeah. Well cuz of the means and the
democratizing of that. The elite didn't
like that you could just go make a movie
like that. But I started practicing and
it's much easier to practice when it
doesn't cost any money. Like if you want
to be a rock star, right? If you want to
learn how to play guitar really well,
you're not going to just jump on stage
and suddenly be able to play. You have
to practice till your fingers bleed.
Well, the same with movies. You got to
keep telling stories and cut them
together. And you just can't afford that
on film. Nobody can with a two-minute
roll costing as much as a 2hour tape.
So, I was moving all these doing all
these movies. First, I would cut in
camera. And that VCR, that old VCR had a
really great pause button that they
stopped making that when you hit pause,
it stopped right there. And it stopped
with a clean cut. It didn't have all
this color bars like the later ones had.
So I that was my and it had an audio dub
feature where you could add another
second soundtrack to it. So if I have
people talking I could hit audio dub and
add sound effects so I could have two
tracks on the same one. So I that was my
film making kit for a while until I
needed to start doing real editing. And
my dad bought a second VCR for his
business cuz I stole his other one. And
I found that if I hooked them together,
I could play on one and use that pause
button on the second. And this was the
limitation. This is what taught me how
to edit in my head, is that if I shot a
bunch of footage, I needed to shoot very
little footage so I could find it.
Sometimes you shoot out of order. So
when I cut it, I have to cut in linear
order because if you push pause, it's a
nice clean cut, but only it only holds
for 5 minutes. You have 5 minutes before
the machine shuts off. So, you got to
find your next shot within 5 minutes and
do that. Otherwise, if you have to start
the machine over, it would add all these
color bars and it would be all screwed
up. So, I'd have to sit there and not
move for like all day while I cut
knowing what the next shot was. And once
I had it cut, I would then add some
sound effects to it. Remember, because I
have the audio dub function. But now if
I want to add music, I take that tape,
which has two tracks now, into the first
deck and put it into the VCR again, one
generation of loss, but I have a little
cassette tape player with the music and
I do a Ysplitter so I can add the music
and Yeah. Right. Just like that. That's
like being resourceful with what you
have. And I made award-winning short
films that way on video. There were some
festivals that would allow video. Not
many, but they would always win. And
there were always funny is uh I stumbled
upon Spy Kids that way. Like I wanted to
make these action movies in my backyard.
But when you're a teenager, you don't
know anybody who can come be your action
star. And if you just bring your high
school buddies, well, they just look
like high school kids. So I use my
little brothers and sisters cuz I'm one
of 10, third oldest. They're just
sitting around watching cartoons anyway.
And I made them the action stars just to
like learn. And I found those things
would be a winning formula. they'd win
every festival I'd send them to. So, Bed
Head was my first time using a film
camera. It was a windup film camera I
got in film school. I went to film
school for one semester and realized I
already knew more than the film students
cuz they they taught you a whole other
outdated way of doing it. So, I thought
I'm just going to use that film c camera
to make a a
low-budget movie, a definitive film
version that I can send to all film
festivals of these action kids, which is
a precursor to Spy Kids. Bedhead's a
precursor to Spy Kids. And we should say
that Bedhead was an award-winning short
film that was probably a big sort of
leap for you that probably opened the
door to you to then make Elmer your your
your brain especially because those
video festivals I I would win like a
trip to New York and a director's chair
with a video shorts that I would put in
festivals. But I knew the film festival
if I could get into film festivals I
could send that all over the world. So,
I made that little short film, sent it,
and it was winning all the festivals.
And I thought, "Wow, I made that with a
windup camera, film camera, filming just
one take each
shot, just no slates cuz I'm the
editor." And that cost 800
bucks, and it was 8 minutes. I bet I can
make an 80minute movie for $8,000 if I'd
use the same method. So that movie I did
6 months later I was making Mariachi cuz
it opened up my mind to that I could try
it in a feature. Can we actually pause
on that because uh I think uh Bedhead
has a really great really unique story
shot in a really unique way. I think
what I'm trying to say is like it's very
important to write write the right
script. Write the right story. So let me
tell you the trick to that and Mariachi
is the same way. And this really helped
people. Like even Kevin Smith from Clerk
said, "Wow, Robert said when Mariachi
was success, I talked about how I did
it." I said, "I I I looked at everything
I had. What do I have?" We have a
pitbull. We have a turtle. We've got a
bus that Carlos's cousin owns. His
cousin is a brother has a brother-in-law
has a bar and he owns a ranch. So, the
bad guy lives at the ranch. The fight
scene's going to be in the bar. He's
gonna hit a bus at one point. He's gonna
the girl's gonna have a dog and a turtle
is going to cross the road. It gives you
all this production value. So you write
backwards. So for Bed Head, I even did
that with a camera. So I'd been shooting
video all this time and one thing I
wished I could do on video I never could
was slow motion or stop motion even. So
when I got that crappy World War II
camera they gave us in film school. I
mean I was so pissed like this is the
camera I've been trying to get my hands
on. I could have bought this for 50
bucks at a pawn shop. Old Bell & How
wind up. You couldn't even see through
the lens. you were seeing through an
approximation of the lens. But you could
shoot slow motion. I could do reverse
photography. If I filmed upside down, I
could do because if I do a fast push
into her, I'll never get the focus in
right. So, I started with it in focus,
went back, pulled backwards on a chair,
and then reversed it, flipped it, and
now looks like it stops on a dime in
focus. The number of times I've seen you
shoot backwards is incredible. like to
achieve a certain feeling, a certain
experience, a certain uh certain effect.
Sometimes shooting in reverse plus the
sound effect
layer, you can create this reality
that's surreal that then results in the
story that you wanted. Like you have you
have to be functioning in some kind of
different space-time continuum.
You start putting it together, right? So
I've got this different camera. Well,
what now? Now I go like I don't want to
shoot the same kind of movie if I got a
camera now that can do that. I can do
stop motion. So that's why there's an
animated title sequence at the beginning
cuz I go, "Wow, I I'm a cartoonist. If I
set the camera up here, I can slow it
down enough. It's not it's not a frame
by frame, but if I get it down like two
frames a second, I can just tap it and
it'll maybe get one frame off." So I did
300 drawings by hand for that opening
title sequence. Holy shit. That was that
was you doing it by hand? Yeah. So you
watch that and this is a throwaway title
sequence, but I really wanted this thing
to win awards. Okay, hold on a second.
How long did that take to draw that?
That's a lot. That's a lot of work.
Remember I drew it. I drew it over Well,
I was a daily cartoonist by then, so I
was pretty fast. But still, it's that's
why it's only pencled. It's not inked,
but it looks great. I mean, it's the
camera's going around and all kinds of
crazy stuff, but it's just all faked by
paper. I took me all night to shoot it
because I remember I walked into the
film school the next
day, you know, like all sleepy. And I
told one of the fellow students, you
know, wow, I was up all night doing this
animated title sequence and he went, why
are you putting so much work in this?
They're not going to they're not going
to grade you any differently. And I was
like, grades? You get an A walking in
here. I'm trying to get out of this
town. I'm not doing this for fucking
grades. I got I want people to see what
I can do now, and I want to see what I
can do now with this. So a lot of the
the story came from the limitations or
actually the freedoms of that camera. I
couldn't have done that story on video.
So when I saw, wow, okay, I can do
reverse photography, I can do stop
motion, she has to have special powers
because if she has special powers, then
I can utilize I can really milk this
camera for all it can get. There's one
of my shots I love the most is where
she's standing there and the and the
chair she makes a chair come all the way
up to her and it goes all the way up to
her face. Now, if I did it normally,
where where would I even put the strings
for that? Right. To pull the chair.
Yeah. So, I start here with a camera
upside down. I have the strings in the
back cuz you're not going to be looking
at the back. And as it goes back, you
pull it back and then when you reverse
it, it goes and it looks so good. you
can't spot the if you look close you see
the strings are in the back but your
eyes not looking so I did stuff like
that and then just her like getting the
hose and then I just do stop motion for
the hose turning on you know the faucet
that's why I gave her special powers so
that and it made the story better so
sometimes the limitations you have with
equipment or location you can use it to
make you know take chicken shit turn
into chicken salad take this camera that
everyone was like what's this and I go I
can do so much with this but I tell you
Hey, I look at that camera. I can't
believe I ever made a movie with that
thing. It's so ridiculously primitive.
I'm just like, how did I even think I
could get anything done with this and it
even exposed? And Mariachi the same way.
You have to think about it. I shot
Mariachi on film and with a bar 16 mm
camera. I didn't know how to use it. I
called up a place in Dallas that rented
that kind of equipment and I said, I
have an airy 16S
here, two motor looking things. One has
a 24 and one has a a bunch of numbers.
Oh, that's a variable speed motor. That
means you can do different speed. I can
shoot slow motion with this. Yeah. Oh,
wow. Do you have a torque motor? I don't
know. What is that? Is there something
on the side of the magazine like there's
a Yeah. Now you can just look up on
YouTube and it shows you how to do. I
was doing it by phone that way. And then
I went and shot the movie right then.
Yeah. And I didn't know if any of it was
exposing or if the film camera was
working until I finished the whole
movie. So imagine you have to go down to
Mexico, shoot for 2 weeks, come back,
send it off to a lab. You want to talk
about being nervous? Yeah.
Just hoping something exposed. And when
I saw it come back and the tape, you
know, they transferred it to a tape so I
could edit it deck to deck again, I was
so relieved. Some things didn't come
out, but I can cut around that. It's
like, oh yeah, cuz I'm doing everything.
Like right here, you're doing
everything. Imagine if you forgot to
stop down and it's open all the way and
one shot is blown out. You know, I'd
have stuff like that because I'm moving
fast and I'm doing it all myself. Wait a
minute. You
shot the whole thing without knowing if
some of the footage is damaged. Wrong.
Without any of it. That's why I only did
one take. So, my idea was this. How
gangster is that? Well, it it was a test
film. Right. Right. I thought it was I
thought it was going to be a test film.
Yeah. It's the only movie in history
ever made where the filmmaker did not
think anyone would see it and expect it
and even set it up that way. I mean, why
would I make an action movie for the
Spanish market called basically The
Guitar Player? Promises no action. No
one's going to watch it. But I thought
if someone actually picks it up and has
the balls to watch this thing, they're
going to be surprised I put a lot of
action in. It was just to learn from. I
just needed to make it for as little as
possible. See how much I could sell it
for. If I could double my money, great.
I can make another one and just get more
practice. It was just I was so intrigued
by this idea cuz you've heard advice
about
screenwriting. I heard a revised back
then that I thought was ridiculous. It
said, "It's going to take you a long
time to be a good screenwriter. So,
write three scripts and throw them away.
The fourth script will be a good one." I
was like, "It's so hard to write a
script. Who's going to write three full
scripts knowing they throw them away?
Wouldn't it be better if you write three
scripts and then shoot each one and be
the cameraman, be the sound guy, be
everything? because that way you're
learning not just writing, you're
learning how to make a movie. So that
was my idea. I'm going to make three of
these, hide it on Spanish video, but
make money back. That's like my own film
school paying me paying me to learn. So
the first one I thought, let me just
shoot it one take each because my friend
Carlos lives in Mexico. If we shoot two
takes, most of the cost is to film. I've
just doubled my budget. So let me just
shoot one take. Some of it's going to
not come out, but I'm not going to know
what. I'm not going to shoot a safety
one. That doubles my Let me Let me see.
Some things might come out. I expected
like 70% of it to maybe be okay, but 30%
I might have to come reshoot, which is
fine. I just drive back there and then I
just re-shoot just those shots, right?
So, I just went, let's shoot. We stop,
we come back, then I send it off to
develop because we're shooting two weeks
consecutively to get film shipped back
and forth from Mexico to see if it came
out. You just couldn't do it. I just had
to, you know, double down on it. Do it
one take everything. I remember one time
I was telling the actor, "Man, I told
you to run through that shot and you and
you go, oh, let me do it again." No, one
take, dude. Just think about next time.
Do what I say. I didn't think anyone was
going to see it. So, you're And because
you don't think anyone's going to see
it, you end up doing something
remarkable, which is, "Well, I'm just
going to make something for myself." Cuz
if I was making a movie that was going
to go to Sundance, I wouldn't have made
that movie. I would have thought, "Okay,
I got to get serious." But because I
made this movie that was just
entertaining myself like Bedhead, it
entertained audiences. So that naivity
is really important when you're starting
out or at any point in your life. Be
naive about what things going to and
just do something for yourself. That
taught me a very valuable lesson because
I didn't want anybody to see it. I just
thought one take, one take. When I got
back home, a bunch of stuff didn't come
out, but I'm like, I'm not going back to
Mexico. I'll figure out a way to edit
around it and make the movie shorter.
And that's just going to be the movie.
And then that's the one that went one
Sundance. That was your first feature
film. That's the one you made for
$7,000. You mentioned your friend Carlos
as the star of the movie. Everything one
take. And you know, I highly recommend
people go back and watch that movie.
It's it's just an incredible movie. It's
fun and it's it's an action film. Moves
really fast. The story is really
interesting. So the script is really
interesting. All the actors, you could
tell they all kind of stepped up and
played their own. weren't actors. They
were just friends of ours, which is why
and because um and this was this the
magic of not having a crew. They didn't
feel like they were making a movie. It's
like this, you know, we're we're just
here. Yeah. Me with my one camera. In
fact, the gal uh Carlos said, "This one
girl, I forgot she's in town. Maybe she
would work." Cuz we tried to get a soap
star and she backed out. So, we got this
gal over. She goes, "But I don't know
how to act." And I said, "Here, let's
watch. I want to show you some on
Mexican TV. A tel nolla was on and you
see someone, you know, all over
overacting." I said, "That's acting." I
don't want you to do that. I want you to
just talk like you're talking. Wait,
wait, wait. That the love interest, the
woman in that, that's what you're
talking about. That's what you're
talking about. She's amazing. She's
amazing. But cuz I got a video of her. I
said, "I want you to just do this one
line. Pretend like you're just talking
to your boyfriend." Yeah. And I showed
her I showed her the video. That was
cool cuz I couldn't show her the film
cuz we'd have to develop it. But I
showed her a video test of herself doing
it and she saw herself doing it. She
suddenly had the confidence. We went
through her closet. This red dress you
can wear that you everyone just brought
their own clothes. She really had like a
sexuality a tension like a romantic
tension that was real. That was it was
it was a it was in part a great love
story that I mean as ridiculous as it is
to say. Yeah. And in part like a
dramatic love story. Yeah. idea was
that, you know, I thought a guitar
player, you know, originally what I
wanted to do was like Road Warrior. I
said, I want a guy with a guitar case
full of weapons going from town to town
like Road Warrior. But I don't have
enough money for the first one to do
that. That'll be the second movie I do.
How about we do a Genesis story? How he
became that guy? So, let's do Mad Max,
basically, how he becomes that guy. So,
maybe he is a guitar player. So, that
you start writing it out. I was going to
show you my writing method. I write on
on index cards and I I carry one of
these a little packet of index cards. I
keep one always in my bag and I smile
when I run across it because I go I've
made a million dollars with one of these
before. You know it's like this is the
key to your next success cards cuz you
know when you go see a therapist you're
not going to them for the answers.
You're going to them for the questions.
You've got the answers inside. What you
don't have are the questions. A lot of
times we ask ourselves very unempowering
questions like why am I such a loser?
You know I can think of 10 answers right
now. But if you but if you go what three
things can I do today that will not just
change my life but everyone around me.
Take steps to that. Take out your cards
and start writing them down. Mhm. You
won't come up with three. You'll come up
with 15. I'm like wow. Cuz you're asking
yourself and you'll see them. So when I
was doing that movie, I thought, okay,
he's a guitar player for real and he
gets mixed up with a guy with a case. So
how about he walks into a bar. So I
write down there. He walks into a bar
bar trying to get
work. Bartender looks at him. We don't
hire Mario. Just get the hell out of
here. So he
leaves after that whole scene explaining
who he is and what his story is. Then
the shooter comes in with a guitar case
full of weapons. He's also dressed in
black and he shoots the place up. Now,
if that was a short film, that's how
you'd start a short film. But this is a
feature movie, so shit. I got to figure
out how to tell a feature. I'm going to
need a few more cards before that. So,
I'm going to
need Well, who's this bad guy? How about
he's in jail? I'd read a story, this
crazy story about a guy who was in jail
in Mexico, and he was running his drug
business from the jail as protection. He
could walk out anytime, but he it was to
keep have the cops be his enforcers
basically. So, introduce that guy. He's
in jail making phone
calls and someone puts a hit on him. So,
we have action right away. There's a hit
on him. He kills those guys cuz it's his
operation. He's not in jail. All the
cops are working for him. And he tells
that guy on the phone, the main bad guy,
I'm going to come to town. I'm going to
kill all your guys and I'm going to come
kill you. So then he gets in his truck
and you see them bring him a guitar case
full of weapons.
He passes the
mariachi on the way to town and now it's
his story. The baton gets turned to
mariachi. Mariachi's doing a voice over.
It's easy to shoot. We can do the voice
later. We don't have to sing
sound. There was even a scene when he
walks into town where we saw these
coconuts, a guy cutting coconuts. And
we, oh, let's go film over there. So, we
filmed the guy giving him a coconut with
a straw in it and he walks out and went,
"Shit, man. You forgot to pay the guy.
Well, let's shoot that." No, there's one
take. I'll just put in the voice over
that they give away free coconuts in
this town. And for years, people in
other countries would go, "They really
give away free coconuts?" No, it's
because we forgot to show him pain. You
know, little happy accidents. So now,
look, you're already building a movie.
So it's like, now he goes in the bar.
Now he's mixed up. And the bad guy says,
"Find the guy with a guitar case full of
weapons." Then he goes and meets the
girl. So you just start your movie vis
visually. You can start seeing your
movie. And I've used this for business
things. I've used this for ideas, for
manifesting stuff. It's brilliant. Are
you doing this alone usually or are you
brain? It's coming and it comes so fast.
It's like free association. Maybe I have
the ending. Oh, I know. I want his
handshot. He's going to get his hand
shot because he's a musician and those
ballads are always really tragic. So,
the girl has to die. The girl has to die
cuz if it's a if it's going to be a
tragic song for his song book, each
movie should be like a
tragedy. That's going to be over here.
You know, now you got the ending and
then you your brain starts filling in
the rest because you're asking yourself
these prompt questions that you already
have answers for from a past life, from
a vision you had that you don't even
know are there. This prompts it. It's
kind of a puzzle that you're figuring
out. What happens if you get stuck? Like
this doesn't make sense. Like some
aspect of the structure doesn't make
sense.
You leave all there. You won't Yeah. You
just start You just start riding in the
ones you do know. Yeah. Like, okay, I
know I know at some point she's going to
betray him or he's going to think she
does. She betrays him. Okay, that's in
the middle somewhere. Uh, the other ones
will come. Yeah, those are all like
crossroads to the story, doesn't that
like how do you know she has to die? Can
I Can you change your mind about that? I
can. Yeah, but for now, I felt like if I
really want the story's telling me now
what it is. I I didn't know I was going
to make a Genesis story. I wanted to do
the Road Warrior guy. But the Road
Warrior, he lost his family. So really
to propel him to become a guy who has a
guitar case full of weapons, he has to
lose everything. So that he needs a
ghost. So this is a genesis story of a
character. Well, look, Bruce Wayne lost
his parents. You could say, well, does
the parents have to die? Well, no, but
it's not going to propel him like it's
not gonna it's not gonna drive him like
that thing. So it just kept it's it's
just coming to me. So this is my other
trick and this is the main thing you got
to learn about if you take anyway this
isn't me doing it. I totally believe
that because when you start doing this
you go where are these answers coming
from? I'm asking the right question but
why how come the answers just keep
coming like this? I believe cuz I do so
many different jobs. I've learned this
over the years when it was in 2002. I
was like, how is it that I'm the
production designer, the composer, which
I don't even know how to read or write
music, and I'm writing orchestral score,
and I'm doing the editing, and I'm doing
the
cinematography. I haven't been trained
for any of these. I never went to school
for these
specifically. Must be something about
creativity. So, I went on Amazon. It's
2002. I look up creative books. Anything
that has to creativity in the title, I
just ordered it. And I've got a bunch of
books on creativity.
And I was reading them through. One of
them was like really speaking to me.
Yeah, that's that's it. That's the
process. That's a And then it says gels
and mediums. And I'm like, "Oh, this is
a book specifically about painting, but
it applies to music, editing,
cinematography, writing. It's all the
same." So that's when I realized that
creativity is 90% of any of those jobs.
the technical part of setting up the
cameras, of writing a script in format
or reading or writing music. That's 10%
of that. How many musicians, you know,
don't read or write music and they're
fantastic? It's cuz 90% what they do is
creative. Now, I believe that that same
person, even if they only do music,
could literally jump from job to job
creativity and do a superior job than
most technicians. And there's also
something to say there about the
learning the technical aspects of an
art. You you collide with the
uh uh with the experts. What what
happens is I've experienced this a lot
with like with with using cameras and so
on. I don't know shit about cameras. And
then you roll in and then there's all
the experts almost talking down to you
and telling you how things are supposed
to be. Everything is wrong. I I talked
to somebody about like soundproofing a
room and they said they gave me prices
that are insane and like the amount of
effort is insane and this the
the dynamics of this room are all wrong.
I'm like why can't I just fucking hang
up some curtains? Like what it seems
like that kills most of the echo. Like I
don't I don't understand. And they're
like no this is all wrong. Just there's
corn the corners are going to have some
and I'm like fuck it. I'm just going to
try I'm going to see what it sounds
like. A and B. Okay, here's audio with
curtsy. Here's audio without seems like
this is fine and move on to the next
thing. I I think that when you say
creativity, some of that is being a
rebel like not listening to the experts.
Yeah. Well, you're going on your
creativity, which is what is that?
That's like an Do you consider yourself
a creative person? I think you play
guitar. Yeah. Guitar, piano. Yeah. You
play piano. Do you But would you call
yourself a creative person?
Yeah, I think so. Good. You should. I I
think that's a positive. I would just
suggest to anybody is just own it. own
it and just say like when I do so many
different jobs, it sounds crazy when
they would introduce me, hey, Robert, he
does this blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah. And I was like, I get tired just
hearing that list. But when I think
about it, there's really only one thing
I do. And I live a creative life. And
when you live a creative life, that
means anything that has to do with
creativity, whether it's filming or
piano or guitar or sculpting or you can
just you can do it. You can take it on
and do it because it teaches you more
about your main job. I become a better
director by doing all those jobs because
when somebody just does one job, they
barely know that job. You have to do
more to learn about creativity. And this
is the main thing I learned was that I'm
writing music, you know, for an
orchestra. I'm like, how did I I don't
even know what I'm doing. Why is that
coming out? I don't feel like I'm doing
it. I feel like I picked up the pen. I
feel like I had the idea to do the
cards, but then when everything just
starts coming out so quickly, like
that's how fast I wrote that movie. I
go, I really feel like something else
has taken over. So, this is what my
belief is. And because I hear it in
different realms, like you ask Keith Re,
how do you come up with these riffs? He
goes, I don't I don't. They're they're
floating around the sky and I pull them
out first. You know, you ask I asked,
you know, Jimmy Van, how do you play
guitar? Those solos. He goes, it's like
a radio, you know, once you get it tuned
just right, you can't even believe
what's coming through. So, I believe I
call it the creative spirit. There's a
spirit assigned to all of us that's
creative that doesn't have hands. It
needs you to pick up the pen, pull out
the cards, and then when you start
getting in a flow and you're like, whoa,
it's writing. It's that's that. And if
you can have that mindset, you take your
ego out of it and go, "All I need to do
is be a good conduit for this thing. Be
a good pipe and it's going to come
through." So, you don't ever have to get
hung up on that question you had. Well,
well, what happens when you can't come
up? It wasn't me to begin with. If it's
not coming out, it's because I'm
blocking it. Mhm. And if I were to do
this and I'm flowing and if I were to
say, "Wow, I just wrote 10 cards. I
don't know if I can write more. How did
I do that?" You just shut the pipe cuz
your ego got in the way. You just
clogged it cuz it gets pissed off that
you think it's you. It's not you. It's
like, "Dude, just open up. Let me
through. Pick up the fucking pin." And I
learned this in uh when I was 19 when I
had a daily cartoon strip. I had to draw
a comic strip every day to get paid. And
I would be like I'd have to draw like
one drawing, draw another drawing, then
it's like, okay, these kind of go
together. It was a process, you know.
And sometimes I just felt like I wish I
could just envision it. Sit back. I'm
going to try that method. I went home
and I would sit back and try to get in
my sofa, try the sofa method. I'm just
going to try to picture the comic strip.
And then as soon as I got one, I think
it's funny. Then I'll just go draw that,
right? Done. Be done in a half hour.
Why? Why? Why waste three hours? I'd sit
there and sit there and sit there. My
deadline be coming up. Got like 30
minutes. I'm like, "Oh shit, got to go
sit and draw it out." And it's like,
"Oh, okay. I got this drawing cut." Oh,
this kind of goes with that. If I make
another drawing, I have my strip. That's
the only way to do it. If you don't get
up, the creative spirit ain't going to
come visit you if you're doing this.
Yeah. It needs your
hands and it's not going to reward you
for sitting there waiting for You have
to jump in and do it. And people when
they say, "Oh, well, I'm not ready." How
pissed off is that spirit now? It's
waiting for you to feel like you're
ready. it's not you. Just start doing
the action and it's going to come
through and the ideas will come and the
answers will come because it's not you.
And if you can take your ego out of like
you'll be blessed with this neverending
flow of ideas because don't take
ownership for it and know that you're if
it's not coming out cuz you're just
clogging it cuz this thing's got endless
ideas. And you give that same advice for
for making films which is you know don't
plan if you want to be a filmmaker don't
plan like the movie. Don't think about
making the movie. Just go in and start.
Yeah. I would meet a lot of people who
introduce themselves as aspiring. I'm an
aspiring filmmaker and I wonder how what
would you tell an aspiring filmmaker?
I'd say stop aspiring because if you if
you call yourself that, you are that.
And you're always going to feel like
you're not ready. And you don't you just
jump in before you're ready. You don't
feel like you're ready till I didn't
feel like I was ready to do mariachi
till I was probably in my last few days
of filming. You became ready as you
went. You didn't know all that stuff. I
couldn't have figured all that out in
advance. When my kids worked with me on
a project that we did similar, by the
end they realized they did an interview
with my son who after just two weeks of
doing one of those projects, you're a
different person. He's suddenly waxing
philosophical about the creative process
and going, I never knew how my dad did
mariachi until we did this project
together. And I realized he didn't know
either. He didn't know how he was going
to do it. He figured it out day by day.
Every challenge that got thrown at him,
he had to figure it out. And that's the
biggest lesson. Most people never start.
And that's the biggest thing. Don't wait
till you're ready or that'll be on your
tombstone. Here lies so and so. He was
never ready. And you don't want to be
that guy. Jump in. No, it's not you. You
just got to be the hands. And that that
that relieves a lot of pressure from you
cuz then you don't have to ever have to
do anything really. You just have to be
the hands. Can you talk through some of
the hats, some of the many hats you wore
with the Elm Mariachi? That's an
interesting case study and you've done
the same thing over and over in
completely different innovative ways in
all the films, but Mariachi is such a
radical leap for you. That was crazy.
That was That thing's held together with
scotch tape and rubber bands cuz of the
camera I borrowed. You directed. You did
cinematography. You did the sound. It's
better to just say what I didn't do. I
didn't act in front of the camera.
Everything else I did. Everything else I
was the whole crew. Yeah. Yeah, it's
just like you're doing here except
you've got sound recording
um right onto the cameras, right? Or do
you have it to system? Uh separately,
but it's synced. I mean, I didn't have
sync camera. Yep. So, I had a camera
that it was not it was not a sync
camera. And the thing was it was so loud
I would have had to blimp the shit out
of it, which I didn't have a blimp. And
then I would have needed a sound guy.
Just to be clear, so people don't
understand this. You're shooting
basically no sound because the camera
sounds like
this. It's like it sounds like all your
money is going away first of all. So I
would go like this action. He'd start
running. Yeah. And I shoot my edit.
Cut. Yep. You know, they're still
running. You know, like I'm I'm only
using this part and there's no slates.
There's no nothing. There's there's guys
holding up their fingers at the
beginning of roll. like this is real
seven for just a few frames so I know
which reel it is and then that 10
minutes of film is just one shot after
another and I use almost every frame of
those shots cuz I was cutting in the
camera now after I shoot like let's say
you know tell me your name Lex. What's
your last name? Freriedman. Where do you
live? Austin, Texas. I would do the
whole scene and I would get the sound.
Bring the mic in close like that. Say it
again.
Lex Freriedman Austin, Texas. That'll
probably sink. Now, if you were going on
and
on, there's a place where it go out of
sync. I hate rubbery lips. So, I would
cut away to the dog or to the knife or
to the girl. And then I cut back when
you were back in sync. And since these
were non-acctors, they say everything
the same way each time. They would say
their line just like they weren't they
weren't performing it to where they
didn't remember how they performed it
before. They were just talking in their
own rhythm. So, a lot of the times it's
anytime you see anyone on camera
talking, they're in sync with
themselves. And as soon as it cuts away,
they're out of sync. And it created this
really fast cutting style that I
probably wouldn't have had on such a
lowbudget movie, but it was the only way
to keep things in sync. So, when I would
shoot two people talking, I would make
sure I'd film a couple shots of like the
dog or a a stuffed cat or something just
so I'd have something to cut away to to
get them back in sync. That's so
brilliant. It's I call it It's just
resourceful. It's just being very
resourceful. You allow it to get maybe a
little bit out of sync sometimes. I
didn't allow it, but Oh, yeah. I would
let it if I just didn't have a way to
cut away, right? And I would try to sync
it as best I could. But we as the
audience like, do you understand where
the threshold is where we notice
something? Yeah. Seems like you can get
away with a lot. You can get away with I
just don't I'm just particular about
that. I just don't like seeing a dub
movie where it just feels canned. It
makes you not believe in it anymore. So,
I just cut away where the lips are just
way off. I just didn't want any of that.
I just felt like I wanted it to just be
believable and there they could be
really believable if they were in sync.
But I didn't shoot two takes of film or
even two takes of audio, just one take.
We just went through the And was cool is
that because I just had them go through
the whole scene. Again, so I would go
ahead and record them like grabbing the
bottle or any action they did, opening
the suitcase, I'd have all the sound
effects, too. I just had to sync it by
hand. That's a lot of work for me. But I
got great sound that way. Cuz if I had
had a sync camera, the mic would have
been so far we wouldn't have we would
have had to go get new sound effects.
But because the camera is off, I could
record everything close up. So there was
some blessing to that. You uh and
Quinton Tarantino had a great
conversation about a lot of topics, but
one of them is how to bring out the best
in the actors. Like what in that
Marriage, how do you bring out the best
in these non-acctors? And then maybe
what's the thread that connects to your
future work too? What really helped for
those non- actors was that they just
look across and and it's me filming.
They didn't feel like they were so they
were being so natural. Like the guy who
played the bad guy, I met him in the
research hospital where I was sold my
body to science. He was my bunkmate. And
I said, "Dude, you look kind of like
Rutgar Hower." And then it's like we saw
another movie. Man, you look like James
Sper. Shit. You should be the bad guy in
my movie and it'd be cool to have you as
the bad guy. He goes, "But I don't speak
Spanish." Well, that's okay. All right.
And I'll teach you it phonetically and
you're going to wear sunglasses. And if
you look close, he's holding the he's
holding the lines here and he's looking
at the lines like that and just smiling.
So can't believe he's getting away with
this. He's smiling and he's got the
sunglasses on. I read that somewhere in
the pool. There's like a scene in the
pool. In the pool. He's like this with
the sunglasses on with Oh, man. But but
he was doing it phonetically and I tell
you what, he was so great that guy,
right? Yeah. When we do Esperado, I
brought him back. didn't even have to do
any dialogue. Watch that movie when he
shows up in the opening scene when
Desperado he's playing the guitar and
the opening with the credits to tie it
into the first movie. He shows up again
and all he has to do is light a
cigarette and you see this.
Yeah. Cuz he's so nervous cuz now
there's a crew behind me. Now it's real.
Before it was just me and him and it
didn't feel like a real movie. So
everyone gave a great performance. So,
how do you recreate that later on a big
movie is just building a rapport, making
a safe zone for your actors. Quinton
once told me, sometimes being, you know,
we're talking about directing, yeah,
sometimes being a great director is just
being a great audience. You know, being
a great audience for the because you're
you're the you're taking the place of
the audience for the actor. They try
something and if you're enjoying it,
they know that the audience is going to
enjoy it or if you're, you know, makes
you cry, you know. So, sometimes you
just you don't have to tell them a lot
sometimes. And if you do have something
very specific to tell them, they
usually, you know, go with it. But I
always just like to see what they do.
And a lot of times they just are in the
zone because again, they're they're
getting that flow, too. You create the
right environment, everyone's getting
this inspiration that's all tied
together that you never could have
directed. It's just like you just create
that space where we're all going to be
open to it and it's going to drop in our
lap and I'm going to point it out when
it does because you may not feel like
you know how to play this role yet. But
I say not knowing is the other half of
the battle and the more important part.
That's the part we're going to discover
and when it happens, I'm going to point
it out and it's going to be like magic
and we're just going to go, okay, we're
accepting it and we do it. And it gets
people in that kind of headsp space and
then we're all open to it to where the
character is supposed to go, what the
what it's supposed to sound like instead
of me being very, you know, manipulative
to get a certain thing. I don't know.
It's it's just whatever feels good.
Yeah. There's such an intimate
connection between the actor and the
director. I've seen some of the
behindthe-scenes footage with you. Mhm.
You are just a fan. and enjoying the
scene when it's done well. But I think
there's an aspect if I were to put
myself in the head space of the actor,
they want you as the audience like to
earn that happiness, you know, cuz when
a director approves. Yeah. Well, you're
a performer, you know, and there's no
other, you know, it's not like a live
show where you get the approval of the
audience and you're like, "Oh, wow. They
they like that joke. Let me do more."
You know, really the director is it. And
a lot of times the director's way behind
a monitor somewhere. That's why I still
like to operate the camera because when
I'm operating the camera, it's like
this. We could have a hundred people
here. we wouldn't know because they go
away. It's just us. They just disappear
when it's the camera guy is the director
and we're going, "Let's do that again.
Let's do that again." There's a shot in
uh I'm gliding Sensity and myself there.
I have my crew setting lights and I have
uh this great shot of Clive and where
he's holding down Benio's head in the
toilet. You know, Benio is not there.
It's just a close-up of him at this
point. And I'm practicing my shot. I'm
zooming in slow in his face and people
are still walking behind him on the
green screen setting lights. And I'm
like, I'm rolling. We're ready to go.
We're getting this. So, I can already
tell we're already in the moment. What
you're doing right now, just keep
holding that. Look now. One jolt. Like
you're like he's starting to fight back,
but you don't even flinch. Cut. Okay,
never mind. You guys can stop moving
that shit. We already got Holy shit.
It's like that. Wow. It's like that cuz
you're so That's a great scene, by the
way. Great. Right. And it can feel if I
wait for these guys, this moment will be
gone. And then another one was Mickey
Ror. You know, he had so much freaking
dialogue. He had just done this whole
big dialogue scene. He had another one
and said, "Let's go ahead and start with
a wide shot where the two actor, if I'm
the camera, you know, Mickey and Elijah
are here. Let's get a two shot and we'll
come around on Mickey closeup." You
know, we'll turn Mickey around for the
close-up. Let's start with the wise
thing and get used to the lines and most
of it's going to be sold in a close-up.
We sit down. Mickey starts delivering
the take. Like, hold on, hold on a
second. I brought my camera over, zoom
in, just adjust that light real quick
cuz I'm the DP. Because if I had another
director of photography, be like, "Oh,
no, no, we have to relight and all this
stuff." It's like no no let's just do
this this let's go. He's doing it right
now and I go and that performance is
just right then and so you can feel that
when you're or also you're operating and
you're the camera guy and you're the DP.
It's like high-tech gorilla filmmaking.
Yeah, we're on a green screen but it's
like all the crew needs are, you know,
marching orders. Just put a light back
there hitting them harder like that's a
this is a 5K, make that a 10K. It's got
to be stronger. They don't need to know
that I'm going to make that a lamp post
later. They just need it marching orders
for the moment. So, I can just kind of
tell people do this, do this, do that,
and then I know what I can accomplish
with the actor and then everything else
falls into place later because I'm going
to put all that in later. You know,
things once you know how to do a lot of
jobs like that, you can just move at the
speed of thought, which is where the
actors love being creatively cuz they
nobody knew what green screen was back
then. They're like, "What is this
again?" So, I explained it as, well,
it's kind of like doing theater, but
instead of a black curtain behind you
with a prop, it'll be a green curtain,
and you might just have a cup or just a
steering wheel, but it's just you and
the other actors just like this. And
everything else will be painted in
later. We're just talking. We're locked
in. If we stay locked in, we'll look
great when there's rain coming down and
we're on a ship later. But it's comes
down to this, right? And the more It was
so fun to do those kind of movies to
this day. He tried to be close to the
action connected with the actor that's
because it's like a dance you end up
that's so to hear remember on on Dust
Till Dawn Michael Parks in the opening
scene he's talking
about the two guys that are running
around killing people just before he
gets shot and there's a I just start
doing this slow zoom I remember it was
take eight start doing this slow zoom on
him and I'm like I hope I get all the
way up to where it stops zooming when he
finishes that speech because there's no
set way and I don't know how he's going
to say it, but you're just locked almost
telepathically. And as he's delivered,
there's no edits. He's just going,
"Yeah, they killed four
rangers, two
hostages. It's just like and you're just
so pulled in." I'm just like, "Oh my
god." And then it stopped. It's like I
ran out of zoom right as he finished
that speech. So, how can a director
because there's a lot of great directors
that stay in the in the bag. I know.
you know, they just trust that whatever
they get from their crew, they just you
accept it. Just like, you know, you
would get a
take I like that intimate connection
because I could not be behind a monitor
even if I had communication with my
cameraman. Okay, now start zooming in. I
You're not going to know. You have to
feel it. You have to be in there. It's
like a dance. It's like trying to do a
dance with a partner and you're across
the room, you know? It's like, no, you
got to be there up close feeling the
energy and and it's the the creative
spirits whispering to your both, you
know? It's not your own idea. It's
you're capturing a moment that's magic
and there's true magic that happens on a
set and that's what brings you back cuz
you know I didn't direct that and they
didn't act that came through us and we
just had the cameras rolling and we
captured a ghost. It's like just like
you said you had the pen in hand and you
were you were there. It's crazy. It's
crazy. All right. Your friendship with
Tarantino is just fascinating and just
the whole timeline of the history of
movies and that the two of you collided
and met is is just a fascinating part of
the story. You first met him in 1992 at
the Toronto Film Festival. Can can you
just talk about meeting Tarantino? Yeah,
we both had films at the same time with
first films, Guys in Black, action,
violence. In fact, I had seen his movie
already. My first film festival was a
few months before that, the Tellyide
Film Festival and Reservoir Dogs was
there, but Quinton couldn't be there. He
was at Sundance earlier that year and
the guy who became my agent, he saw it,
he said, "Hey, you're gonna like this
guy, Quinton Tarantino. I told him about
you. You're going to meet him. He's
going to be in Toronto." Oh, cool, cool.
Okay. And so I went ahead and saw his
movie and Tellide and I was like, "Holy
shit, this guy's in black again, just
like the mariachi's dressed in black and
action." I said, "Oh, we're going to
like each other's movies. He's going to
like my movie when he sees it." So then
in Toronto we met and uh we met first on
a because I knew I was going to be doing
a panel discussion with him. They asked
us to do a panel discussion about
violence and movies in the '9s even
though it was only
92. So we're on a panel together and
that's where I met him and he's like hey
Robert your agent told me about you and
I was like yeah and I saw your movie
Reservoir Dogs and he goes oh you got to
come to my screening and I'm going to
come see yours. So he came to Mariachi
and I videotaped the audience reactions
because they were insane insane
reactions to it. But I have the first
screening he saw of Mariachi sitting
next to me laughing. He's laughing and
everything. He was just the best
audience. I have his recording of the
first time he saw Mariachi. Oh no,
really? Yeah, cuz I taped it all and
he's so loud cuz he's right next to me.
Well, just like you, but even probably
even more than you. He's a fan.
He watches He just loves movies. He
loves movies. In fact, I the the next
time I heard him laugh that way was at
the own premiere for Kill Bill. We're
watching Kill Bill and he's laughing
like it's somebody else's movie. He
still enjoys the movie. It's so he loves
what the actors did and it's like that's
the kind of energy you really love. But
I'll tell you what what what happened.
Um I'm not I'm very shy person, you
know, very shy. I'd have to go talk. I'm
sure you probably feel like you're not
an aator or anything, you know, just
have to go do it. I thought, well, man,
I'm gonna have to introduce my film and
talk about it afterwards. I'm afraid of
that. What am I going to do? I don't
I've never talked in front of more than
five people before. So, I went to see
this other
movie and it was good. And I was
watching and then the director comes up
at the end. He goes, "Yeah, well, that
was my movie and um you know, here's the
writer." And he's like, "Oh, man. I
don't like the movie anymore. This guy's
kind of a dick." So, I cannot do that.
I'm going to have to go be who they
imagine made that movie. So, I wrote out
my whole intro. It was like a 20-minute
intro cuz no one had ever heard of
anybody making a movie for no money,
much less without a crew, much
less, you know, the way I did it was
just very new. Nobody knew it was
possible. So, my whole intro is like,
you'll see the Columbia logo slapped in
front. It's probably cost more than the
whole movie. And then I go through this
is how I made it with a wheelchair for a
dolly, a turtle, you know, I rode around
things I had. I mentioned the turtle,
the pitbull, the bus, the ranch, all
that stuff, right? So then when they see
the movie, in fact, I think my wife was
in the audience. She said at Sundance,
people were laughing so much at your
intro. They just wanted to hear a story
like this so badly. I heard someone next
to me say, "I'm going to vote for his
movie." They hadn't even seen the movie
yet just cuz the story was so good. They
wanted that movie to be great. And when
they see the turtle, big cheers. When
they see the pitbull, big cheers. When
they see the school bus, cheers. But
then when they see how we use it and he
slams into it and falls in it, they
freaking lose their minds because they
know how I put it together. They know
the rubber bands and the popsicle sticks
cuz I already set it up. And so that's
why that audience, I just taped the
reaction. They're so with it. The
context is so key. Like you can watch
Mariachi and go, "Hey, yeah, this looks
like a $7,000 movie, but if you know the
story behind it, suddenly I was curious.
I hadn't seen it in a long time. I was
watching it for the 20th anniversary."
We did a screening and the first few
shots come up and I'm like, "Oh, yeah.
Well, it looks like a $7,000 movie." And
then it keeps going and it's in the once
we're in the jail cell and the
shooting's happening and I and I
realize, "Oh my god, we had these blanks
that only fired one shot and it would
jam." So I had to show it going, use the
sound effect, cut to the other guy, cut
back, have another one go. I had to do
these editing tricks to make it look
like and then repeat a few frames so it
goes so it looks like a machine gun. All
these stuff that I'm start sweating as
I'm watching it going, I can't believe I
made this movie with that freaking
camera. I don't know how I did. I
couldn't even see. I'm there with this
long lens pulling my own focus. When I
finally had to do a real movie, I was
operating the camera in my first real
movie with a crew and I get the camera
and a guy comes over and he focuses for
you. That's your job. You focus. Shit, I
had to do my own focusing on the last
movie. I didn't I was so hard. You're
trying to focus on a guy while you're
filming. You don't know where you are.
And it's just I was couldn't believe how
much easier it is when you have a crew.
But it's extremely valuable to know that
the pain of that, the the spectrum of
creativity that's allowed within that.
Even just the focusing, yeah, like how
focusing fucks up on older cameras, on
newer cameras, what what are the
different artifacts that come up just to
know Yeah. the battlefield. In order to
be a great general, you have to know how
to be a soldier on the battlefield.
Yeah. Yeah. It's good to know all that
stuff. But, you know, it's like at the
end of the day, you could shoot
something on a phone and if you have a
great story, no one's going to even
notice. They'll be, "Oh, we shot that on
a phone. I didn't notice." You know, so
sometimes people get cut off on what
kind of camera should I have. It's like
it's not the camera. That's just the
tool. That's just the pen. That's just
like, yeah, you can have different paint
brushes, but you can go, I'm going to
I'm going to limit my palette. I'm only
going to use a fan brush and a detail
brush, and I'm going to make a painting.
Do you think that painting is going to
suffer? No. It's going to take on an
identity that you wouldn't have had if
you had all the other tools. So
sometimes the limitations help you
because when you can do anything, you
come, it can be crippling. when I knew I
could only use those things from
Mariachi, it's like, "All right, well,
it's very it's very simple." Now, let me
show you how cheapkate I was. Like, I
did not spend on anything. So, when you
see him walking around with a guitar
case, it's a shitty cardboard one, you
know, like I got from home. I had to get
a heavier one to put the guns in. So, we
borrowed one, but it had this material
ripped off the top so you could see the
wood. It was just the wood on top. So,
it didn't match the other one because it
wasn't all black. And I was too cheap to
paint it black. I didn't want to spend
money on paint. So, you see that
cardboard case? He puts it down. And
when he goes to open it, I cut to the
other one once the wood is is Yeah.
Watch the edits, you'll see it open.
Now, it's a completely different case
with the guns. And when he goes to cut
it, when he close it, it cuts to the
other one and he goes up. That's how I
did that whole movie. Again, it was a
practice film. I don't want to waste any
money on it. I don't know if it's going
to be able to I will be able to make
five bucks from it. Yeah. But there you
you're one of the one of the few great
directors where both the movie is genius
and the process of making it is creative
genius. It's like fun to watch both to
know of both. You know what I believe,
right? It's like from somewhere else. I
have to say that thing is freaking I I
didn't get in its way. This basically
would what helps and and people say that
you know don't get in your own way. This
is a little bit easier to understand.
It's like keep the pipe clear. Don't
block it with your ego. Don't say you're
going to be shocked, but don't ever say,
"Oh shit, how do I do that? I don't know
if I can do that. You didn't do it to
begin with." Accept that it just came
through you and try to get back into
that headsp space. Especially when you
go to make a second film or a third film
or follow up a success. That's when
artists get really crippled cuz
sometimes they start tiptoeing around as
an artist going like, "Oh shit, now it's
my second film. My first one did really
well. They might not like my second one
so much." That's not the headsp space
you were in when you made the first one.
You weren't a hesitant like that. you're
just so try to keep that very naive and
and that's why I say commit to a body of
work because I know a lot of filmmakers
get stuck on their second one and then
go further because they get crippled by
the success of the first one and they
start asking oh shit how did I do that
how can I do that again and you get
deeper and deeper in a hole you can't
get out of I think you spoken about that
filmmakers especially early on in their
journey critics and the audience can
destroy them meaning like it it creates
too much of a burden too much
uh just wear them down to where they're
almost scared to be creative. Can you
just speak to that? How to ignore the
critic. I'll tell you something that I
my best advice I ever got early on. I
was so
fortunate from an unlikely
place. Um because he's such a he sounded
like Clint Eastwood when he said it. It
was funny when you said that. I thought
that but I got uh I did Desperado and it
had Antonio Bendettas. I brought Antonio
to be in it from Europe. Big action
movie. And so Spielberg saw it and he
said, "Um, hey, I want you to do Zoro
with
Antonio." So we were working on it for a
while. I did I was working on the
pre-production. Got to work with
Spielberg doing that. It ended up
stalling because the there was like two
studios involved in Ambling was moving
or it was some weird thing where but I
got to work with him for about five
months, you know, and I started getting
really nervous because it's like, oh
shit, you start thinking about even
movies of his that people would say, oh,
you know, Temple of Doom is not as good
as Raiders. Have you seen Temple of
Doom? I'd been killed to fucking do that
movie. Yeah. If I can make Zoro as good
as that one, the one that people said
it's like people don't know how good
they had it with that guy. But I started
thinking I even said, man, I just
rewatched Temple of Doom last night. I
don't know how I'm going to do this
horror movie. Like I'm just never done
anything like that. You start getting
you know afraid cuz you go the second
thing he said, "Oh, just just just
you're going to do fine." But then I
started thinking, God, this guy at that
time, you not know the era, but this was
like mid
'90s. He was making the biggest best
movies of all. And people would shit all
over this guy. They would throw so much.
They were so jealous. Press, audience,
everyone was just like hits at him, just
throwing rocks at him for everything.
Spielberg. Yeah. You can't imagine it
now. You had to been at that time. Now
everyone has respect for him. But they
made him run a fucking gauntlet and they
were like Jurassic Park. Yeah. You can't
even imagine it now. But you should have
seen the climate. It freaked me out
because I'm like maybe I should just
stay under the radar where I've been,
you know, not poke my head out so much.
Yeah. Cuz this guy has his head out and
they're unwarranted. Just you can't even
fathom it now because you weren't here
at that time. It was crazy. You would
never even think of him that way. I'm
glad it changed because back then it was
just it made people not want to be
successful.
And I made me be worried like maybe I
shouldn't be go making a movie that has
his name on it that's going to put my
head out in a whole different realm of
film making at a studio level because if
I make even if I make a good movie if I
make a great movie he's making great
movies and he's getting this dog shit. I
don't know if I could take it you know.
So I asked him because you don't know
how resilient you can be. So I said pan
how do you do it? How do you how do you
what do you do when people just throw
rocks at you all day long? He goes, "Oh,
Robert, you just don't
blink." And I was like,
"Whoa, now I see how he got through it.
Just don't blink." Just
like, you know what's coming? Don't
blink. And to him say, it's like a Clint
Eastwood line, right? But it was like,
you could see he was telling the truth
and you could see that's how he did it.
He just avoided all criticism by just
not blinking. It's like it's designed to
make you blink and you're just not going
to blink because you're committing to a
body of work. He just keeps cranking out
movies. Whatever he feels like doing, he
does. And that was like the most power
and it never bothered me again. I just
like always kept that in mind. I tell
that to my actors. I tell that people
that story as traveled. Uh I even had
some little actors who are like starting
to get up. I said remember tell a couple
of things. Some people have told me
you're never as good as people say you
are and you're never as bad either.
George Clinty told me that I remember
that. And then the second one,
Spielberg, don't blink. Don't blink. But
there has to be a kind of vision for
yourself of what what what you're
reaching for what you're trying to do
again. Yeah. sort of like I think if you
told me what would be my vision for the
future just committing to a body of work
which I've just kept doing like that's
that's about as far as you can see. Do
you have a sense do you have a vision of
the body of work you'll make in the next
20 years like or is it just this I did
like I wasn't sure because you don't
always know what the you might not have
the vision yet because you don't have
the information yet. So if you just
commit to a body of work you'll start
figuring out more reasons to keep doing
that body of work. So when I turned 50,
I was like, I guess I could just keep
making movies. I mean, I guess that's
been good for me. I guess I could just
make more. I kind of done that already,
but it's always fun and it's always new
and I guess I could make, but it wasn't
a lot of drive, right? It's that's not
it's like, well, I guess I could just
keep doing the podcast, you know, that's
not as much as I can't wait to keep
doing another season. But I didn't know
how to get to that point. So I thought,
you know what? I I got this job so
early. I think I was in the early 20s. I
bet there's some other job out there
that exists that I don't even know about
cuz I don't know other jobs. So I looked
up, you don't believe it, but I
literally bought jobs for dummies. Nice.
It was just like I didn't even know what
I just basic jobs out there. Turning the
page. Oh yeah. Don't want that job.
Don't want that job. Don't want that
job. I'm just going through and it gets
to filmmaker and there's a little icon
beside each job. This icon is a guy like
this. Literally, you look it up. It says
and it says this is the best job ever.
you get to just be creative with your
friends, sit back, watch the money roll
in across the desk. And I said, "But 99%
of film students don't get this job, so
give up that dream." So I was like, "Oh,
I guess I got the best job." But then I
started working with my kids when we did
uh I had a TV show called Rebel Without
a Crew based on that where I I found
filmmakers who had only made a short
film. They hadn't made a feature. I
picked this diverse group of filmmakers,
gave them $7,000 and we documented them
making a feature two weeks like I did.
You can bring one person like I had
Carlos guy out of the the producer and
star of Bariachi. Br one person. You can
be your cameraman or you can be your
sound guy or whatever, but it's only
that for the shoot and you'd have to do
the whole thing. And I saw those guys by
the time they're they're like, I don't
know how we're going to make this movie.
By the first week of shooting, they're
already talking about their next
feature. They they became so confident
because their idea of what impossible is
drops really quick when you take Yeah.
Uh anyone interested in uh unlocking
their creativities, not even just film
making, I highly recommend that show and
I highly recommend this the kind of the
follow on show which is where you make
Red 11. Yes. So that's the one I did. So
then it came time for me to do one. So I
made a movie called Red 11 based on my
experiences in the medical hospital. But
I'll turn it into a sci-fi thriller just
to use that as so that I can use like
somebody getting stabbed in the eye. So
I still going to have more elements to
show how you can do camera tricks and
stuff with no money and and the whole
day is make it for less than $7,000
which I think we were like $5,000. U
mainly because you know had a lot of
actors I wanted to pay. Um but the movie
itself you can make it for nothing. But
I brought my son aboard as my number one
who hadn't been working with me in a
while. I mean, he wrote Shark Boy and
Lava Girl when he was seven, but then he
hadn't really been at working on my
crew, so he didn't know how to operate
the sound equipment, the separate sound
system and all that. I didn't show them
until the day of filming cuz I knew
we're documenting it would make a better
tutorial. So, by getting them working on
the movies
together, they came to me super excited
by end of the day. I thought for sure,
oh, they're going to hate this, even
though it's only two weeks. They've got
other interests. They don't want to be
filmmakers. I thought they were going to
be like, all right, I'm out of here
after one day. But instead, he came to
me when his brother who acted in it and
my
dad. The actor didn't show up after the
first day. The location didn't match the
script at all. We asked you how we were
going to solve the problems and you were
like, "I don't know. Figure it out." We
thought that stump for once he is he
stumped finally. But then by the end of
the day, his eyes were all wide. We
figured it out. I went, "Oh, they don't
realize this is the creative process.
Every day is like that." And in life,
too. every day you don't know your
machine's going to not work or you're
going to get a flat tire or you're fired
that day. So life is very unpredictable
just like a movie set. So I realized I'm
going to make them all work on my movies
now because it's teaching them about
life. I'm teaching them very little
about the film make it's about life
lessons about how you take on something
impossible turn chicken shit to chicken
salad and make it work. And that's the
string. That's life. That's the process
of life. So many people say, "Well, I'm
not ready to make my project." It's
like, "You're not ready for life either.
You're like this all day. You're you're
dodging shit that's going on. How come
art has to be perfect?" It's like, it
should be the same. Life and art should
be the same. And I think film making in
general is full of unpredictable things.
Short little microcosm too. Within one
project, you got a whole blueprint for
how you're going to solve life because
you've just done it on a creative level.
I think of all the art forms of all the
art mediums like that. It just has so
many different components. A lot of
components to it. And so like there's so
many ways to fuck things up to learn
from fuck. But any of the disciplines if
you add those to it like I teach my
actors to paint in between takes. We'll
go and we'll I'll take a picture of them
in character. I show them a canvas. I
show them paint. You don't need to know
how to paint. This is to show you the
brush is going to know where to go. You
just got to pick it up. Pick the colors
you want. Doesn't matter how crazy they
are. Whatever is speaking to you, you
lay it down. I'll show you some of the
pictures. You're not going to believe
the masterworks these actors did like in
a day. They just start doing it. Lady
Gaga had her fingernails in there. You
know, Josh Brolan's doing his thing.
Then I take a picture of them in
character. Do a line drawing of it. We
project it on top. And mostly it's the
painting coming through. They're line
drawing with a little bit of their eyes
painted in. You're not going to believe
these things. They couldn't believe it.
But it teaches them that that thing
about that the creativity is going to
come through. So even though they're
already acting, they're already being
creative. We're already making a movie.
like you said, that's already a really
great creative endeavor. When we would
sneak off and paint, you could tell it's
firing a whole other part of their
brain. Um, it was funny. I think uh Josh
Brolan's girlfriend
said, "Josh, hey, my girlfriend just
said she said his wife now, but time,
are you guys doing drugs? You leave the
set." And you come back and you're all
like and I go, "No, we're painting.
We're painting." But that makes sense
that you say that because it
creativity firing is more powerful than
any drug. And we would come back and and
he'd be on the set going, "Is it bad
that I'm still thinking about the
painting?" And I was like, "No, I think
it's good. I think it's all good." But
it's you can tell it's opening a whole
other part of the creative brain. So you
can be doing acting in a movie and the
painting is still going to tap. It shows
how much untapped potential your
creative brain has. So the more you can
do, the more you're firing off and the
And it was so cool. Like I remember we
did one with Joseph Gord Levit was
painting. We came in and the table was
like this and they said we have a
problem. You want him to throw the cards
out the the playing cards out but it's
so slick they go sliding off the table
and we both look at it and we both got
the solution at the same time. Oh just
just just have them just have him throw
them wherever they go and then we'll
place them and then digitally it's even
better that he looks like he gets them
all perfectly laid out to show what a
card shark he is. That's but that's what
we have to do because we're not going to
we'll be here all day and we're trying
to get if we're going to worry about
where they go just go boom boom boom
boom boom boom boom and then we'll place
the cards down and everyone will pick
them up and then we'll marry the two and
post you know you just you just come up
with creative solutions better easier
because you were just solving crazy
creative solutions in the other one like
what paint medium do I use what kind of
gel am I going to use so when you come
back to your main job which is film
making you're like oh I can figure this
out in two seconds, you know, so it
helps you creative problem solve. So
that basically working with my kids made
me realize, oh, now I know exactly what
I want to do for the next 10 years. I
only want to make movies with my kids
because I'm mentoring them, but they're
teaching me shit because they're the age
I was when I made Mariachi in Desperado
and their their ideas are really sharp.
So the mentoring goes both ways and it's
like the greatest parenting you can do
because you're building a project
together and in the same boat together
figuring it out and it's family time.
You're like checking all the boxes. So I
thought my film making going forward is
going to be checking all the boxes in
life. So I'm not not spending time with
my family. We're actually giving them
lessons that they can go do anything
they want in life cuz they're going to
have different interests. But now it's
kind of like going to college. And this
college is like the best college because
it pays you to learn. You get to do
these crazy skills. was like, "My son
is, you know, conducting the orchestra,
the James Bond orchestra in London for
the Spy Kid score, a score he wrote cuz
I can't write at his level because he
was always our best piano player." And
they get you get the charge out of
working with them. And then and by
making a label, there's a there's a
weird phenomenon that happens if you
guys want to take your game to another
level. I stumbled upon this idea. My son
that was my counterpart on that movie
Racer. He was my sound guy like I said
came up with Shark Bava Girl when he was
little. He became my writer coowriter
co-producer. He had come to me and said
I want to
do VR type movie. I said oh let me show
you as an example of creativity and
manifesting. I said let me show you how
it works. Let's let's make a company.
We'll make a company called DoubleR
DoubleR Productions because we all have
double R names. All the kids. So if
anyone ever wants to do anything, we can
use our company. So let's make a logo
and I'll make t-shirts and notepads and
stuff because once you have a company,
you have now have to make things for
that company. Just like the advice I
gave to people, stopp aspiring, make a
business card that says writer,
director, cinematographer, I did editor
because then now you have to conform to
that identity. So now if I create a
label like doubleR, we're going to come
up with ideas. We'll call up VR
companies and say, "Hey, we have a
company, a VR company. Would you like us
to make you a film for your cell your
headsets? Yeah, they gave us a budget.
They they they're dying for content.
They gave us a budget. We shot a
20-minute action movie called The Limit
with Michelle Rodriguez and Norman Reus
where you're in an action movie with
them and it was killer. We they made us
a big doubleR logo, animated
logo. Later that year, we did Red 11.
Same logo. That movie went to directors
Fortnite and can festivals were paying
us to come talk about how we made that
movie. That's when we're doing the
cards, throwing the cards out because
they wanted their audiences. They knew
they would love that. So, we could have
had a whole gig just continuing to get
paid to go to the feds. Usually, you pay
to f go to f. You don't get paid. That's
how what a success that was. But then we
had to make we can be heroes. So, we had
to stop. But we can be Heroes was a
Netflix movie where they asked me to
make a spy kids type thing. And so, I
thought, "Oh, okay. I'll just do it with
superheroes." That's there. I wrote it
with my kids based it on some of their
personalities. It's the most watched and
rewatched movie in Netflix history. Like
nothing had touched it cuz kids just
keep watching it over because this kids
with superpowers. No one's ever done
that before. And they ke they couldn't
believe it. Like I'd heard anecdotally
that's how the spy kids were people
said, "Oh, that kids watch it over and
over on video." But you can't keep track
of that. You can't on Netflix because
their biggest thing is people completing
a movie. A lot of people don't complete
a movie and it still counts as a view.
They may watch five minutes and change
the channel. So, do you complete a
movie? That's really where they, you
know, really value. Not only do they
complete, but rewatched, re-watched,
re-watched per household so many times
that nothing could touch it. That one
has a double R logo as well. And my kids
are like, "Dad,
that really worked." I was like, I know
better than I thought. I didn't know I
didn't know that me manifesting that
company was going to turn into that. And
we just keep making stuff. So, I want to
do that with Brass Knuckle Films now
with the audience. cuz it works. So I
said as soon as you have a logo and a
company, your brain starts coming up
with all kinds of ideas and it's a
filter. Like like I said, sometimes the
freedom of
limitations is all freeing. When I had
to do four rooms and it's like we have
to use one hotel room, oh well then
there's going to be a dead body. There's
going to be you can do a lot with
limitations. If they said you could use
the whole city, it would been harder to
come up with something. Well, Brass
Knuckle Films has a filter only action.
Action movies because that's the stuff
that there's always an appetite for. If
you ask Netflix right now, what do you
need more of? They'll say action,
action, action. We don't have enough
action. The last regime didn't leave us
enough action. We need action. They'll
pay a premium for an action film that we
can make at a lower cost. A $20 million
action film is very cheap. Studios don't
know how to make them that cheap. That's
why they'll pay for an independent to go
do it. And right now that's the key is
to be independent because a lot of
studios that can't even greenlight
anything because things are so expensive
they don't want to lose their ass but
they need action films. So let's make
something that everybody needs and let's
make it at a price and we'll make it in
my studio because I have my own studio
and I can keep all the cost down because
we have all the costumes and props and
sets from 25 years of film making to
keep the cost down and we'll have the
audience gets to invest. It's not
crowdfunding or Kickstarter. You're
actually an investor. Anyone who puts
money in can pitch their idea for an
action film to me. And I'm going to make
one of the four films in that slate from
one of those ideas cuz I want the
audience to win. I want the audience to
win and be a part of it because the
audience is an afterthought in
Hollywood. They make a movie, they show
the audience the movie. Go tell your
friends now so you all spend money on
our movie. Well, where's your cut of
that? So, I want them to be successful.
So, if any of the movies in the slate do
well, they make money off that one and
then sequels or anything. But they're
all going to do well because everyone
needs an action movie and we're going to
keep the cost down. Can I actually ask
you just to focus in on action? You've
created a lot of epic action films. What
makes for a great action film? It comes
down to the character, you know, like if
you think about what are the best action
films, what are your favorite films?
Like Die Hard. He's a cop, so he's still
capable, but he's not Superman. The fact
that he's like in over his head and
you're rooting for him, that's a great
character. You know, John Wick, he is
Superman, but he's retired and now he's
pissed off and he's going back into a
job, you know. So, the car, it comes
down to the character really being very
important because the action will then
have a character to it. I think Leon the
professional that's what's
character now that when I say we're
going to do action movies, I mean movies
that are really action first. Like
there's some movies that are more dramas
that have action. Where's the boundary?
So John Wick is action. That's more
action, but it has character in it, but
it's action driven. What about like
Predator? Predator is a sci-fi action
film, so that's kind of a hybrid, which
I like, but sometimes it's hard for the
audience to know what they're buying
into. Got it. Like they focused a lot on
the action in the trailer, you know, and
then you felt there was some other
worldly thing, but you didn't really
know. But it's a great movie. So Die
Hard is a is a good example. It was a
good example, right? I can think of
right off where there's a character that
really made the difference. And then
everyone repeated that, you know, for a
while. It was like under siege all like
a regular guy who's really actually has
some training on a ship now and then on
the bus you got a cop. He's a cop, but
he's not super cop. So that's why you
root for him. You know, that became an
element that people repeated a lot. Uh
what about Taken? That's a great one.
That's a great character who is
superhuman. Yeah. Who's also retired,
you know? There's like a superhero type
character in an extraordinary
circumstance like that's now his
daughter's taken, right? And then
there's ordinary people like the
Terminator. That's a great character.
Not the Terminator, he's a villain, but
Sarah Connor who is a waitress, doesn't
think her life's going anywhere and she
finds out she's the mother of the guy
who's going to save the the human race
and uh she's got to train him. You know,
suddenly she has to become someone else.
Those are cool movies because it's a
genesis of a character and you see a
character go from waitress to
revolutionary, you know, step up. Yeah.
What about mob movies? I mean, some of
them like Godfather is really not about
is not action. It's not an action movie.
Drama that has some action, right? I
mean, John Wick is a mob film in some
sense. Good Fellas. I mean, there's a
lot of dynamic action, but there really
not action first. That's really a
character type piece. Great. Freaking
amazing. And it feels like action by the
way he does it. It's just like that.
It's like fastpac, fast talking, fast
moving. Like Escape from New York's one
of my favorites since I was a kid. Cuz
every movie, you'll notice this now that
I tell you, even like a romantic comedy,
there's a timeline. Every movie has to
have like a ticking clock. So the
audience knows this story is not just
going to take over a period of years. So
suddenly someone in the movie around 20
or 30 minutes in will say, "We've got to
go find the groom before the wedding
this weekend." You know, it'll be just
like that. Skate for New York has the
best example of a ticking time clock
because he's literally got bombs in his
neck and he's got a watch that shows
him. He's constantly clocking it how
little time he has and he gets you so
like, "Oh my god, is he going to make
it?" Um, that's like the best use of
that and no one's ever topped that
ticking time clock. All the other ones
seem artificial in comparison. You know,
aliens, you know, we got to get off this
planet now cuz this whole thing's going
to blow up. You know, they like there's
a timeline. So you're it's already
urgent and now but now there's an extra
timeline on it. You know that this is
what happens. You as you're talking
you're just making me fall in love more
and more with action films. I I
sometimes you forget how much you love
action. A really good action film. Yeah.
In fact like the Terminator. Oh my god.
The original Terminator just came out in
4K. I've been watching it again. It
looks like better than most movies look
today. And that's a $4 million movie. It
looks incredible. You can see every beat
of sweat in this movie. I was watching
it again with somebody, a female, and
there's always a point when you're
watching that movie where she'll turn
and say, "I love this
movie." You know what point that is?
It's a point where Michael Bean tells
her, "I came across Time for you, Sarah.
I love you." Which is, you know, I
always have. And you're just like, "Oh
my god, there's like a real emotional
love story there that he put into
Titanic, that he put into Avatar. He
figured out that thing that makes those
movies work. By the way, I should say
that I mean there is an aspect of uh El
Mariachi that is a love story to me.
Yeah, there was a love story. I don't
know if you see it that way, but I when
I just rewatched it, I was like a tragic
love story, but I was like heartbroken
that she's dead. I got heartbroken
twice. Let me tell you the second time
it happened. One, you're making that and
you go, "Okay, this is how it has to
go." But then now you're invested in
this person. You go, "Oh man, she has to
die. It's going to be really sad." In
fact, the studio even When they said
they were going to remake it, good thing
I put that ending on. That's the only
reason they showed it to an audience. We
were going to remake it. They weren't
going to put that movie
out. They showed it said, "We need to
show this movie to an audience cuz they
might not like the fact that we killed a
girl before we remake it." All right.
They show it to an audience. The
audience liked it the way it was. So
they said, "We're going to take this
movie to some film festivals." And I was
like, "No, not this movie. This is my
practice movie. No one's supposed to see
this movie." Yeah. And they go, "No, no,
you got something." No, no, dude. If I
knew anyone was going to see this, I
would have shot it completely different.
Give me $2,000. I'll go re-shoot half of
it just knowing people are going to see
it. I want something. And the head of
the studio is really smart. He said,
"Um, you don't know what you have here.
It's very something really special.
Let's take just take it to tell you
right, see what happens." Tellide
Toronto did great like I said and won
Sundance. So now we had to put it out.
But I was like, I would have said,
"Don't show that movie." But they also
questioned the ending and didn't come
into play because we ended up making
Desperado and the girl in Desperado
doesn't die. You know, we we didn't do
that. We didn't kill Salma. But that's
what needed to happen in Mariachi. I'm
Quinton called me one time. People would
always saying like, "Oh, Reservoir
Dogs." He he borrowed from this movie
Hong Kong action film called City on
Fire. It's about these guys that are all
criminals and they kill each other,
whatever. And um he said, "Hey, they're
showing a double feature called East
Looks West and West Looks East. They're
showing reservoir dogs with City on
Fire." the one they say I borrowed from.
And they're showing mariachi with a Hong
Kong film called Run where they ripped
off mariachi. Like they just took the
whole story. It had two, you know,
Chinese actors in Mexico with the guitar
cases. One's that they just followed it
beat by beat. So we're watching it and
it was like scene by scene. They just
they just rebate it without even getting
the rights or anything. It was so fun to
watch. So we saw Mariachi first, then we
watched that one and I'm like, what's
this big brothel scene though? This
isn't my movie. This Oh, the bad guy.
Oh, there's a scene in my movie where
the bad guy has two girls in bed with
him and they figured that was a whore
house, but it was just this apartment.
So, they got this whore house built up
and they have helicopter shots and all
kinds of big thing and the action was
awesome. But then and the girl's really
good and then midway through the movie
I'm like, "Oh shit, she's going to die
cuz I killed her in mine. I don't want
her to die. I like this actress is
really great and they have a really
great love story." I go, "Well, I hope
they change that part." No, they kill
her. So I I felt bad twice because I
sealed I I sealed her fate. I sealed her
fate because
I have a line in spite kids too because
I started thinking when you create stuff
you start
thinking I wonder if that's how our
creator is. He's like oh shit I just
kind of threw that in a memo and now
that whole town's going to get wiped
out. Yeah. You know I didn't even think
about the implications of that. Um cuz
uh there's a line I was making a
character that Steve Busi plays in Spy
Kids Too and he's a creator. He just
wanted to make a little miniature zoo
for kids. And then he thought, well,
what if I put some together like a
lizard with a snake and it's a slizzard
or you have a spider monkey, which is
like literally spider legs and a monkey
top. So he makes that and then he
thought, hey, why don't I make make them
a little bit bigger for kids that have
big hands? and it got out of control and
they turned into these huge creatures
and now they're trying to eat him. So,
he's hiding. The kids find him hiding.
And he says this one line that people
keep coming. It's on the internet a lot.
This meme about this, why is this line
this movie? It's so wild. I thought I
wanted Steve to come up to the camera
and like he's just he's lost in his own
creative world. And he says, "I I can't
even go outside because my own creations
are going to eat me." and he comes up to
the camera and he goes, "Do you think
God hides in heaven because he too lives
in fear of what he created here on
earth?" It's like really just for a
moment this thing and it's like cuz you
feel like that way when you're when
you're creating stuff like you're
creating something and then now it's
taking on a life on its own and like oh
no now this character has to die. I
didn't want that. you know this this
domino effect of creation and you start
thinking well that's must be what
creation I maybe he is hiding up there
because look at he didn't expect all
this shit to happen giving us free will
and all
that I mean in this particular context
it uh you are the creator of this story
and it for some reason makes me feel
good to know that you feel the pain of
this character dying yeah absolutely cuz
like if I'm I'm writing it but if it's
not coming from me I'm as surprised
sometimes and Quinton would say that,
you know, he'd say, "You just get two
characters talking when I'm writing my
script and then suddenly they're just
talking to each other." And I was like,
"What does that mean?" And now now I
know what that means. It's like he just
gave them life and now now the the
dialogue's coming through him. Let me
just ask you, you're the perfect person
to ask about the genius of Quinton
Tarantino. What makes him special as a
director, as a creative mind? What do
you see in him that's beautiful? That's
brilliant. He he he's just since I met
him, he was just like this brilliant uh
ball of energy and uh you know like if
you see him I walk around his house and
I'll see like a few sheets of paper all
handwritten out. I'm like what's that?
He goes oh that was something I was
starting to write and I you know not
going to finish.
Can I take these and go turn it into
like a whole trilogy of films? You know,
like what he throws away all this mortal
men would kill for. Do you meet people
like that? I tell
people, you know, your parents say,
"Watch out who your peers are." You
know, when you're younger that means one
thing, but when you get older, surround
yourself around people who who swing
much farther than you. You know, that's
just like But that's really true. I
mean, just by being around him and
working with him, you get by osmosis,
you learn stuff and it just ups your
game because they're just swing way
beyond you. Jim Cameron was like that.
So, like when I first met him, I was
trying to impress the hell out of him,
you know, because I was such a big fan.
I was about to go do this and I went,
"Hey, I just took a three-day steadyic
cam course cuz I can't afford a steadyic
cam operator, so I'm going to operate
steadyic cam myself on this bar." Now,
if he was just my peer, he'd say, "Oh, I
I did the same thing, and I'm going to
do the same thing." That that would be
like hanging out with somebody of your
ilk, but you don't you want somebody
who's above that. You know what he said?
He goes, "I bought a steady cam, but not
to operate it. I'm going to take it
apart and design a better one." It's
like us mere mortals trying to learn how
to operate the camera. He's designing
all new systems. That's the guy you want
to hang out with, not someone who's
doing what you're doing. So, surround
yourself by those kind of people. And
that's when you learn things like don't
blink, you know, like somebody who's
like really swinging for the fences and
accomplishing so much. And Quinton was
like that. So I met him at the
festivals. He saw Mariachi. He loved it.
We came up, we talked, and he said,
"You're going to like my next film I'm
writing right now, Pulp Fiction." So I I
thought, man, I'm going to put this guy,
he's so he's so fun. I'm going to put
him in I'm going to write him in my
Desperado script, which I was writing.
So that was before Pulp Fiction and all
that when I had cast him. I didn't know
he was going to go become such a
household name. I just was drawn to his
energy and I'd already ridden him in and
I met Steve Busi there and I was like
I'm writing a character for Steve Busi.
But then I went back to the Sony lot
where I was working on Desperado and
Quinton and I ended up having offices
right next to each other on the Sony lot
by accident. I didn't even know that. I
I just met him and I go back and he was
because originally Pulp Fiction was for
Tristar because Danny DeVito was a
producer and he was going to make it for
Tristar. So he was there writing Pulp
Fiction and I was writing Desperado. So
I'd go show him like storyboards from
Desperado and he'd come act out scenes
of Pulp Fiction and we got to be really
good friends that way. We'd go eat lunch
at Versail across the street uh the Sony
lot and then Sony passed on Pulp
Fiction. It's too weird. It's too
long $8 million movie or 7 million.
They're like, "Ah, we're going to go
make the next Polyshore movie instead."
You know, like we don't understand this
thing. And Mirramax got it and they had
just been bought by Disney. So they
produced their first film was Pulp
Fiction. And so and then that thing went
to can and it was a whole thing. But
what I loved
about his story is that when he made
Pulp Fiction, he had a director
screening, he showed it to some
directors. I wasn't able to go, but
anyway, I had dinner with him once and
it was in my journal cuz I keep a
journal at two at 2:40 a.m. when after
he had I dropped I dropped him off at
his house. I said, "Oh, wait. How did
your movie come out?" You know, Pul
Fiction. He had just finished it and he
went, "Nah, it's
still feels like a movie Quinton would
make. doesn't feel like a real movie.
And I was like, that's fine. What do you
mean? What does it mean? It feels feels
like one of those movies I would make.
Like Reservoir Dog doesn't feel like a
real movie. And I was trying to be the
supportive friend going, "Oh man, he was
so excited about this movie. Now he's
bummed about it." And I was like, "Well,
it's should be different. It should be
like he's like wouldn't have it." Drove
off. So I thought, "Oh, I guess that
wasn't the one." So I went home and I
called some of the directors that were
at the screening and they go, "Yeah,
this isn't the one for him. It's not.
They none of them saw it. None of them
saw it. But that I know you're like
surprised. Yeah. But that happened with
George Lucas, too, with Star Wars.
Everybody saw that movie and was like,
"Poor George." They showed it to all his
director friends. Poor George. What he
wastes all this time with us for? Only
Spielberg was the one who said, "It's
naive and it's going to do really good
because it's naive and kids will like
it." But everyone else was like, "What's
he doing? We're artists. We're making
art films. What's he doing this garbage
for?" Because nobody knows. It shows no
one knows anything. Not even the
filmmaker. When you're being
groundbreaking, you don't know what
groundbreaking is. Not you or anyone
around you except maybe one or two
people. So he said there's one person,
oh yeah, who is your Spielberg? Goes,
Katherryn Bigalow. Without a doubt,
she's the only one who said there's
something here. No one else was seeing
was saying that. He said, in fact,
because he remembered suddenly he had
forgotten the story, but if it wasn't in
my journal, I would have forgot it, too.
He goes, "In fact, one of my friends
Simmon and said,"I want to sit you down
and tell you all the things that are
wrong with your movie, but I'll wait
till you get back from the Can Film
Festival." And he goes, "And he wins the
Palm Door." And then his friend's like,
"What the hell?" I know. I've only made
one movie myself, so never mind. I guess
I guess we were all wrong. So even he
didn't expect that at all. So that was a
shock, you know, even to him. So think
about that. Yeah. That means what do you
do? Commit to a body of work. Just do
that. You don't know. You don't know
what's going to be a pulp fiction.
What's going to be a Jackie Brown?
What's going to be, you know, you don't
know. And they and you like to think
they know, but they don't know either.
They feel it. Like I asked Jim Cameron,
I said, "Do you see your movie really
clearly?" Like, "Can you see it like
with with hyperfocus? Cuz it seems like
that." And he goes, "It's like really
far. It's out of focus." And you work on
it and you work on it starts coming. I
Okay, good. So that's that's normal. I
thought maybe he had laser vision or
something, but no, even him, he doesn't
really know, but he feels and he he can
make decisions and he understands what a
creative drive is and how to just keep
being relentless about it. But it's not
like they have all the proximity is
huge.
Proximity will change your life. Did for
me just being around those guys, they
didn't teach me, hey, I'm going to teach
you how to make a movie. Just being next
to them, being in their world just ups
your game and you just you're able to do
things you weren't able to do before.
You get ideas you didn't get to do
before. I did I'll show you uh one of my
painting
things. You're not going to believe this
freaking thing. I had a painter friend
in Germany, Sebastian Krueger. He gives
a workshop once a year. I'm going to go
there and I bet I'll learn more about
directing by watching this guy paint
than I will by watching another
director. Cuz that's just now I know how
creativity works. You're gonna learn
lessons outside of the box by doing
that. And I try to practice before going
out there. I was doing a Danny Tjo. I'll
show you the before and after. You're
not going to freaking believe what you
see. But this is it. It really tells a
story of how important proximity is. So
I'm I do this painting. It's like ah
fucking looks garbage. I'll show you. It
looks like garbage. I'm not used I can't
do paintings that are just like See, you
never should say I can't because you
just cut your leg off. But I couldn't at
the time paint just paintbrush into
paint and then write on the canvas like
that without using some kind of medium
which this guy Sebastian Krueger would
do. So first I did a digital painting of
Danny Tjo like just to get the framing
and all
that just like that's like on a wake
them tablet but then I did it with paint
and it's like ah it's all cruddy and
it's too thick the paint and it just
looks that's and I just gave up right
away. I I was trying to pre-practice so
I wouldn't be a total buffoon there cuz
it was going the next week and I thought
he's using a different brush obviously
he's using a better paint. This stuff
just is clogging up and it's crap. I'm
sure when I get there. So I get there
and he's doing a MC Jagger. Mhm. And he
starts with a midtone. He starts
blocking in the face with a little tiny
drawing of where the face goes. He
starts doing that. He starts adding some
highlights. There's the photo, his
reference. And he I'm like, "Why why are
you why are you uh concentrating so much
on the cheek first?" And he's like,
"It's different every time." And I go,
"Why do you what what paints are you
using?" And he's like, "Those regular
acrylic paint. What brushes do you have?
Regular brushes." I'm like, "How come
mine doesn't look like yours?" Well, let
me try what he's doing. I mean, you
start with a midtone. I'm going to do
that Danny again. Yeah. Start with a
midtone. I'll start adding some
highlights. And I did that. And
everybody kept coming over going like,
"Did you just do that?" And I was like,
"Yeah, I don't know how, but it's very
cartoony still." He's doing a very
realistic MC
Jagger. Look how real that is. And
you're just watching and he doesn't
teach you anything.
So he just starts painting. So this is
the photo he had as a reference, but
then this is his painting,
right? Yeah. And because I'm there, he's
not teaching you how to paint. Through
osmosis, you're like learning some up.
You're seeing that there isn't a trick.
Yeah. I thought he had a trick and
that's why I couldn't get any further.
He's using the same brush and the same
paint. Well, how come I can't do that?
And you go, you do it. I go, I'm going
to try and do something realistic. I've
never done realistic before because I'm
a cartoonist and everything. I was
cartoony and that was just easier for me
cuz I thought I would need too much
training. I did another Tjo. I started
doing a realistic. I finished out just
one section of his face and put the pen
down because I did that shit. the same
day. Nice. I got out of my way because
seeing him get out of his own
way. I think that's why sometimes people
need to go to school for stuff like that
cuz then now well I just did four years
of school. So now I must know. Now
you've given yourself permission. But
you could give yourself permission right
away and it's going to come through. And
drawing Danny Tjo of all people. It's
like there's so much going on there.
It's like he's so expressive.
was I mean you've worked with him a lot
and you've I mean he's one of those
badass humans on the screen. You've
created that. Can you just talk about
what it's like creating those
characters? What was exciting about
Desperado is I went to go make it and
there were no Latin actors working in
Hollywood cuz no one was creating roles
for them. So I thought, "Wow, I got to
go create my own stars. We'll bring
Antonio from Europe cuz they kind of
know his name from the Motivar movies."
And I saw him in tie me up, tie me down
when I was in the hospital riding
mariachi. We're watching TV while I was
a patient. And there's a scene where he
like headbutts Victoria Abil, you know,
he just gave us a head but he goes like
that. I was like, whoa, I bet that guy
would want to be in an action movie.
He's got something inside. So I called
him when we were doing Desperado and I
said, "Would you ever consider doing an
action?" Oh man, I'd love to do action.
He's just gonna So I said, "I got a
movie for you. I got a movie for you."
Was sequel to Mariachi. And so Salma I
found in Mexico television, you know,
doing she couldn't get work in the US
because of the roles. Find her. I mean,
this is one of the best craz one of the
best stories. I was really determined to
hire a real Latin, especially Hispanic,
and then she's Mexican actress to be the
Mexican character. That's like as
authentic as you can get. And there was
no one who was getting any jobs cuz no
one was creating any. So there was no
one that had any movies under their name
because there was no one. It was a whole
systemic problem, right? This was 94,
93. So, I was watching uh a Paul
Rodriguez show on Univision cuz he I was
trying to practice my Spanish cuz I was
having to do all these Spanish
interviews cuz Mariachi was in Spanish.
That was the only other part I didn't
tell you. I didn't speak Spanish when I
made that movie. We didn't grow up with
it. So, I never I left that part out of
the Mariachi story because I thought
people already didn't believe I made the
movie by myself. They knew I made it in
a language I didn't speak. I should have
said it because it'd be even more
inspiring. Like now you have no excuse.
I would wrote the English subtitles
basically. I wrote the titles, what
became the subtitles and then we take it
to the actors and the actor would
translate it for me and I I was like
that is so inspiring. I'd be like holy.
I would try to speak Spanish and
say like let's record and they'd be
looking at me like that means let's
remember the record doesn't mean record.
That means kind of now I know. Back then
I didn't know. So I'm watching Univ
Vision and then there's
Sama as a guest and she's a big soap
star down there in Mexico and she comes
out, she's beautiful. She's funny.
Everyone's laughing. She's Sama,
everyone that we know now. And she
starts talking about, you know, what I
gather from what she's saying that she's
having trouble finding any work in the
US because of her accent. And then uh
Paulie says, "Well, say something in
English." And then she says, then she
sounds just like she does now. And he
goes, "That's great." She goes, "I know.
I know." And I went, "I think this is
the girl." So I called her in my office
and I videotaped our first meeting
together. So I have that somewhere just
telling me about and it's Salma. It's
Salma. She's her with her energy, with
her passion and funny. She became
instant friends with my wife. You know,
before they walked over, your wife and I
are best friends. She already was like
part of the family. She's godmother to
my kids. Um, and I thought, I'm gonna
help you. You're gonna help me. I need
to have a Mexican actress in this and
you're going to be phenomenal. The
studio didn't see it. They were like,
"What? She hasn't done anything. Why
don't you just hire somebody else who,
you know, already has a name?" So, if we
just give her one movie, then she'll be
someone who's in a movie and then you
can keep casting. So, I made a whole
another movie with her in English called
Road Racers. It was my second film for
Showtime. Really cool little rebel
without a cause type movie. Um, and
she's and I gave her a role in that. we
have an example of her doing English and
they still were like we need a screen
test. We need to have a screen test with
a bunch of other actresses, you know.
So, I said, "Sure, let's do that." So, I
went over to her house the night before
before the screen test and we worked on
the scene, which is the best scene where
she's operating on his arm and they've
got all this chemistry and I was just
directing her through it like completely
down to when you pick up the water and
you hand him the water. Don't scream,
"Oh, hot water. Just be like hot water."
And while he's spitting it out and it's
going to be a big dramatic action with
like a very light delivery and so we got
it down to a science. The next day we
show up. Antonio does a a scene with all
the girls come in. He uh does it with
her. Clearly they've got amazing
chemistry. She just nails it. He's
great. He loves her too. Studio's like,
"Okay, you can hire." Reluctantly like
that, right? But once they saw the
footage come as we were shooting and
they saw it on the big screen when
they're watching the dailies, then they
were like, "Oh my god." Then they saw
it. then they saw what I saw when I met
her. But they it sometimes you like you
say, what do you do when people are
like, "Hey, why come you're using
these?" Just know that not everyone's
going to see it. You may have the only
vision. Just keep going. There's an
instinct that tells you to keep going
that way. You'll get proved right or
wrong or maybe you're slipping on the
first two rocks or whatever, but follow
your instinct because you can everyone's
going to have an opinion and it is not
necessarily the right one. And when
you're an independent filmmaker, you can
make those decisions that change
people's career, that changes the world.
And that's why you want to remain
independent. That's why what's happening
now in the industry is great because I
have to make movies like the way I
started, which is what I've always liked
to do, which is just doing it where we
create our own destiny. We go, "Hey,
we're going to make a movie. We're going
to make it for this budget so we can
make it and the story is going to be so
character-driven and cool. We're going
to be able to get big actors to be in it
because they're going to want to be in
it." So Danny Trey, you asked me about
Danny Treyo. Great stuff. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Okay. Danny Treyo, we're doing
Desperado now. I'm casting all kinds of
people. Now, I have this character that
I want to have a bunch of knives. He
opens up his vest and there's a bunch of
knives. So, bring me all the the coolest
looking, you know, Latin actors we can
find. And before he even walked in,
there's a picture of him. He already
looked like the guy, but he was younger.
He always just played prison inmates. It
was a picture of him as an inmate in a
prison. I want to give him a cool role.
You know, this whoever this actor is. He
walks in and I see him. It's Danny
Trejo. He sits down and I had the prop
knife already made and I say, "You need
to have this in your hand and look like
you sleep with it. Like just practice
flipping it around your hand." And I
gave it to him. You got the roll. Just
start practicing with that. He gets up
and he walks out. He didn't have to say
anything cuz there's no dialogue. He
walks out. We get to the set. He kept
saying, "Put me in coach. Give me a
line. Give me a line." It's like, "No,
no, you're such a nice guy. You're going
to blow the whole mystique. I want this
guy to feel like the most evil scary guy
of all. and you're such a nice guy. I
didn't let him talk till dust dawn. But
one thing I noticed was that the the
town we're shot in, the Mexican town,
which is the same town I shot Mariachi.
We went back there because I wanted to
pay back the city. So we had this big
movie there and um they didn't really
know Antonio cuz he was in European
movies. Salma hadn't come to the set
yet, but they saw Danny Tjo there in his
vest looking like a Mexican icon. They
would go like this. Everyone thought he
was the star and I just know magnetism
when I see it. I went, "This guy's got
something." So I went to him and I said,
"I got a movie we're going to do
someday." This was 94. We didn't make
this movie for 15 years. Machete. You're
going to be
Machete. I had I had an idea for Machete
then. It wasn't the same story. I had
seen a story. Uh actually Mariachi, the
guy who played me this funny story. say,
"Hey, look at this story that the US DEA
and FBI sometimes would hire a Mexican
federal to come do a job for 25 grand
that they didn't want to get their own
guys killed on." I said, "That's
machete, the guy that they
pay, but he's not doing it for the
money." Turns out he he has to get this
guy that escaped Mexico. And that's the
twist. So that was the original story I
had. I said, "We're going to do this
someday." And we talked about it for
years and never did it. Never had got
around to doing it. So, when I did Spy
Kids, I put him in Spy Kids and I said,
"Hey, let's pay tribute to that
character we never got to make and
you'll be Uncle Machete. He's a gadget
guy, but he's got a mysterious past."
But then a few years later, Quinton and
I were doing
Grindhouse and he'd already done Dust
Dam with me. You know, I was building my
own Latin star system. Salma showed up
in a bunch of my movies. Chees up in
every movie. Danny shows up. I brought
Chee out of retirement, put him in my
movie. I needed to create my own Latin
star system because all my scripts
because when you write in your own
voice, you're going to write probably
somebody that's Latin, you know, so you
need to have a star system that matches
that so that you don't have trouble
casting and people are like, "Well, you
can't hire this person." So, I built up
my own star system. So, Danny was one of
my stars. So, after we're doing
Grindhouse, we had to do fake trailers
for
Grindhouse and I told
Quinton, I know what trailer I'm going
to do for the movie I never got to make
with Danny called Machete. That'll be so
fun. Finally get that out of our system
and doing a trailer is so fun. It's two
days of shooting. Just still being that
resourceful guy. We asked this company
that had a digital camera we wanted to
use. Can you let us uh send it to us for
a couple of days screen test? I mean
camera test. Instead of shooting a
camera test, we shot the trailer. So, we
got a free camera, shot the trailer with
him. And it's just the money shots. Him
opening his vest full of machetes, you
know, him aiming that gun, him in a
waterfall with two gals. And I just came
up with this really funny trailer. and
we shot it. People were screaming at the
premiere. You couldn't even hear it.
They just wanted that movie so badly
because there was black exploitation in
the 70s. There was never me
exploitation. It felt like this should
have existed but it didn't. It's Mexican
superhero. I just never seen anything
like that. You know, now you know. But
like even his mom calls him machete.
Like he just became this guy. And of 250
movies that he's been in, machete is his
most famous one. So for five
years, five years, people would come up
to us and say, "Where's Machete? Why
ain't where's when's that movie coming
out?" And we're like, "It's not a real
movie, but it looks real. We want to see
that movie." So we finally made the
movie because people just asked for it.
And I used I wanted to I was adamant
about being resourceful again. All those
shots that are in the trailer are really
great. I got to reverse engineer the
trailer into a movie so I can use that
shot that's in the trailer. Like this
girl in the waterfall. Why would this
girl be in the waterfall? Thought of a
really clever way that he gets the bad
guy. Her hair's kind of her face is kind
of covered by this hair. We'll cast
Lindsay Lohan there or the senator will
switch it out for Robert Dairo. Well, I
just reverse engineer it. So every time
there's a shot in the trailer, it's in
the movie, but I shot all the footage
around to lead up to it. That's another
fun creative exercise is to reverse
engineer something you just did like
this on the day. You just threw a bunch
of cards out basically with that trailer
and now you got to go make a movie using
all those cards. That's like a creative
exercise that I thought so satisfying,
so fun. Yeah, that was beautiful. You're
you're actually known in part, maybe you
can correct me, but to do pretty
unexpected, surprising kind of
interesting casting. So, Robert Daiir is
an example of that and that's just a
great role. The second aspect of that, I
heard the story that you can just get an
actor in and out in just a few days
really fast. The the Robert Rodriguez
experiences they call how do you make
that hap like can you just tell the
story? I'm the editor. I'm the
cameraman. I'm the
DP. And so when I call him and say I
I've got you as the villain in this
whole movie, but I'm going to shoot I
swear I'm going to shoot you out in 4
days. You come down four days. In fact,
there's a scene where he's in the
hospital. He's just smiling. and he's
just having such a good time cuz he
couldn't believe it. I said, "Guess
what? When you wake up from your hotel
room at the Stephen F. Austin, you just
cross the hallway. That's the set. The
room the room next to yours. We turned
into the hospital set. So, you're just
going to come laying there in your
pajamas." Really? That's what you did?
Well, yeah. We had to save time. We only
have four days. So, everything had to be
very thought out to be like, "Boom,
boom, boom. Let's shoot the money, get
them out of this. We don't have to spend
a lot of money on them." Book a room in
a hotel, set up to look like a hospital
room. Yeah, that's our scent. And it's
real. You don't have to dress it. And
it's just right there. All you do is put
like a little tube there, you know, like
a for his IV and then you have a couple
of nurses and it looks like genius
hospital resourceful resourceful next
door. But I said you're going to think
about me when you're on your next Meet
the Fuckers movie and you're on there
for 6 months where they have you sitting
in a trailer. I don't like to do that.
So, you know, I gave Lady Gaga her first
two
movies because um after Machete, she
said publicly she said, "I saw Machete
and my song Americano should have been
in Machete." I thought she saw Machete.
So, I called her up and I said, "Hey,
I'm making a sequel and I would
certainly use your music, but have you
ever thought about acting because you're
an amazing performer. I think you'd be
I've worked with a lot of actors who are
also musicians and they're always great
because I already know how to be a
persona, be on stage, be in front of a
bunch of people, which most actors can't
do." And she said, "Actually, I studied
acting before I became a singer." Said,
"Well, you'll never be able to be in a
movie cuz you know what? They don't know
how to shoot people out. They want six
months of your time and you've got and
you're always on tour. But if you come
be here, I have a part for you. I can
shoot you out in half a day. This whole
section of a movie and I'll shoot your
movie poster. It's incredible. She's
like, "Okay." So she shows up. I had all
the sets like a conveyor belt right next
to each other. Shoot, shoot, shoot,
shoot. She's in the car. That's why she
had me do her music video for Rain on Me
later. She said, "Would you just go to
Austin? Robert, put me on a grease guy."
I was throughout that whole movie. I
don't know how we did that. It was half
a day. She was there half a day. I did
the same for Sin City, too. I was like,
I have a set here waiting for you if
you're on tour in Houston. Just drive
into Austin. I'll shoot you out in half
a day. You could be in a scene with
Joseph Gordon Levit. Sure. She came
down. So, wait, how do you take Robert?
How do you take Lady Gaga and like solve
the puzzle of all the scenes they have
to be in? How do we shoot them quickly,
efficiently, conveniently? You have to
edit your own movie. I I have this
analogy, a food analogy that works
really well. Script is like your grocery
list. Filming is like grocery shopping.
Getting the best performances, getting
the best be getting the best
ingredients,
right? Editing is like the cooking. Too
much of this, not enough that, you fuck
the whole thing up. So, so many
filmmakers do not edit. Yeah. And they
give it to some other guy who might look
at all your ingredients and go, "This is
all great, but I'm going to go make a
fucking sule." And he makes something
else. So, by doing that job, I mean,
like I've worked on some big stuff and I
realized finally after many years,
because I've always edited, I realized
this is why movies cost so much. There
could be 150, 200 people on the crew and
I swear not one of them knows how to
edit. Not one. So, they're getting the
wrong stuff. They're having to reshoot
shit. The editor is in a room somewhere
useless calling after the fact, we still
need to get this close-up or you got to
reshoot that cuz it doesn't match
because no one knows editing.
So if you just know that you're already
miles ahead of 99% of Hollywood, but
that's just how I learned by accident.
So I kind of stumbled upon it. But um
and I realized that's what the problem
is cuz across the board I'm watching
them going that's not going to match.
You guys are just spending money sending
crews out shooting stuff for this. It's
just it's a cluster fuck. Let me show
you. And that's how it's in city. Bruce
Willis nine days. Whoa. Britney Murphy's
in all three stories. One day, Ben L
Toro, three days. It's just like you're
just shooting their stuff. Mickey work
is in a sequence with Red Gar Howard. We
shot eight months apart. I didn't have
Red Gar Howard till I was doing Shark
Boy Lava Girl. So, I just shot Mickey
acting with me and then I shot Regger
acting with me and I just cut them
together. Wow. What's weird is like
editing exercises are like I used to do
these editing exercises where I would
tune my VCRs together and I would cut my
movies, but sometimes I would just cut a
music video. And I cut a music video
once because I was a big fan of Ruggar
Hower and a big fan of Mickey Roor. So I
said, I want to make it look like
they're in a movie together. So I cut
this music video together, but and so it
shows like Lightning on Ruggar and the
Hitcher and then Lightning on Mickey
from Rumblefish, but Rumblefish is black
and white. So I made the whole thing
black and white. I was like 19. I was 19
years old when I did that. Wow. And then
years later, I'm making Sin City. I shot
Mickey not knowing who the other actor
was going to be till I cast him eight
months later and it was Rugger. I'm
cutting them together to look like
they're in the same movie and it's in
black and white. I'm like, I've done
this
before. Oh my god, I found that old
video. It's like, oh my god, I already
made a movie then in black and white.
That's some weird shit, right? That's
the magic of creativity. It's like
sometimes when you have a vision, it's
not clear, but it's coming to you from
the future. So, you got to just follow
the voice. No matter what anyone says
about your curtains, just follow the
voice you got in your head because you
don't know and you're not smart enough
to
know and you don't need to know. You
just need to do you just need to be the
hands. So this is like what you can do
with no time or money when you know all
those jobs. It's the benefit of knowing
those jobs. Like I said, the more you
know those jobs, the more you know your
main job, which is being creative, but
on the day thinking on your feet. So,
I'm gonna show you this um this test.
Okay. So, for Dust Dawn the TV series, I
would always shoot the the first episode
and the last episode of like a seven or
eight episode season. There's three
seasons. By the time we got to the third
season, I was doing Alita, so I couldn't
do the big finale episode. And my actor
who plays the George Clooney character,
DJ Katrona, he's somebody who fucking
wanted to be a writer and was writing.
He's wrote Fight and Flight is this
movie that's going to come out with Josh
Arnett. his he wrote it after doing this
he was like man hearing you talk you
know what I got this is what I love
about you inspire people the feedback
loop inspires you back said man hearing
your talk for red 11 and the cards and
uh I've got a script that's partially
written I'm just going to go I'm going
to go crank it out in three days I'm
going to cut off the phone in three days
I'm going to finish that thing in three
fucking days and he came back and he
said I finished the script and I read it
and I go when you read it in three days
and go well I wrote some of it before
but it I just kept thinking I wasn't
ready. And then you told me the thing
about not being ready and you said that
it really resonated. I went and I
finished it in three days. I go, man,
I'm going to do that. I'm going to go do
the DJ method. I call the DJ method. I
have a bunch of halfbaked ideas that I'm
just going to go turn off the phone and
finish the thing in three days and I'll
I'll fix it later, but the three days
it's going to be pure pipe. It's just
going to be coming through because
you're just going to be picking up the
pen. So anyway, he went he came to me
with this idea. He said, "Oh man, I was
hoping you'd do the last episode of Dust
till Dawn because I had this great idea
for a scene. We're in a zombie town,
western town. We have this one those
guns where you have to pull the trigger,
you know, the hammer back before you can
fire. So I thought, what if I have a gun
that's empty and I got bullets in the
other hand and I bump into a zombie, the
bullets go flying, I jump and I catch
all the bullets and shoot the guy before
I hit the ground. Mhm. Okay, that's kind
of a real cool like desperado type
thing, but dude, this is a 7-day shoot
for these
episodes. Everyone on the crew will have
a different idea on how to do that.
stunt guy who will put you on wires
because you have to do all that action
or the DP isn't even operating the
camera. It's a camera guy. The director
doesn't know how to shoot. He's not
operating the camera. Your editor is in
a room somewhere. VFX guys aren't there.
You're not going to be able to ask them
how to do it. But I in my own VFX, I
came up with how we did all the shots in
Sin City and all the spiking
movies. We need one guy to come do it.
I'll come do it for you. I'll come do it
because I'm already going to be there
because I have to shoot a second unit
fight scene for the other actor who
wanted a cool fight scene. So, I was
already doing that. When it comes to
your scene, we'll switch places because
it's got to be done quick because you've
got you got to shoot it in 20 minutes
cuz you got a ton of other shit you got
to shoot and you'll just never get it.
You won't even get it in a film
schedule, you know, in a regular movie
schedule. It's just too crazy. You need
somebody with a vision to to do the
whole thing. So, this is what it would
look like if you were on the set. I'm
going to show you the footage and I'm
going to show you the the scene. I have
to show it to you a couple times because
you're not gonna believe what you're
about to
see. So, if you were on the set, this is
what it would look like. So, I get
there, they say, "We're ready for that
scene." So, I get over there to the set
and I go, "Okay, where where are you
coming out of?" He goes, "This
building. Where are you getting the
bullets from that body?" "Okay, bring
that body closer." "Okay, stunt guy,
bring a pad over. I want to see you just
jump and start to twist as if you're
turning. I just want to see how much air
time you can get to get any action
before you hit the pad." He starts his
jump. He barely starts jumping. He's
already hitting the pad. I was like,
"Okay, that ain't going to work. You get
out of here, DJ. You're going to do it.
I have no idea how I'm going to do this.
I hadn't thought about it before." But
now you're there. So awesome. And now
the options are very limited. Yeah,
you're very li Look at the sun. You're
going to see the sun not move. You see,
that's the point where the sun starts
getting lost. I have to shoot this in 20
minutes. You're going to do three jumps
and I'm going to cut it to look like one
jump. All the bullets are going to miss.
Only one's going to go in. So here, just
follow what I'm saying. We don't have
time. What cameras do we have? What's on
the A camera? A long lens. Oh yeah,
that's my camera. I'll operate that.
What's on the B camera? Steady cam.
Leave it on steady cam. No chance. No
time to freaking convert it. At one
point, I want to lower it. So, just flip
it upside down. We'll flop it later.
Give me the main camera. Okay, DJ, start
running towards that bullets and grab it
and pretend like it gets shot out of
your hand. I shoot it in slow motion,
but I'm showing you how it would look on
the set. Okay, now the bullets are
flying. I'm going to add those
digitally. And I'm going to hold the
bullets up to the light in each angle so
that they know what it's supposed to
look like so they can match that.
Otherwise, it'll look phony. Now, first
jump, I just want you to commit to just
jumping out and just look at the barrel.
Just look at the barrel on your hands
when you're jumping cuz that'll look
like you're looking at the
bullets. And just don't even think about
that you're going to catch a bullet.
Don't think about that you're going to
start turning. Just stretch your body
out. Get a really graphic look that how
cool that looks. Yeah. And then the side
view shot this at the same time. You can
already
tell it's going to look like bullets are
missing, right? Mhm. Okay. Now I need
Now I need this part though. I need the
part where he's catching the bullet.
This little window there. Mhm. How am I
going to do that with a lens that long?
It's going to be all out of focus. It's
not going to be slow motion enough. He
even knows me and he's like, "What the
hell am I doing?" Say, "Just lay on the
pad and rock up and down." And as you're
coming down, that'll look like you're
falling as I'm zooming in. Because I'm
operating the camera and I'm cutting
this in my head. Yeah. And I'm saying,
"Just do it again." He's like, "What is
it?" Rock up. And then as you go down,
it's going to look like you're falling.
The bullets. Okay. You've caught a
bullet. One went in. Now, second jump.
When you do the next jump, as if we just
passed those other moments. You've
caught a bullet already. So now you're
going to snap it closed and start your
turn. It's all you'll get before you hit
the pad. snap turn, right? So, like,
okay, this is I want the cameras to feel
like they're dropping with them. That'll
give you more of the sensation. So,
let's actually lower that steady cam
shot. Flip it upside down and get a low
angle. See how look at the sun's right
there. Hasn't gone behind the building
yet. That and then my camera. I lowered
my camera down and I got that angle.
Right. Okay. Now, last jump. I bury a
thin I said, "Just bury me. Bring me a
thin mattress cuz I want him to do all
the stuns. I don't want to stun guy cuz
he does this himself. He just did it in
three jumps. But the audience will know.
They'll just be like, "We believe that
this guy can do
anything. I want you just to finish by
turning and cocking the hammer back and
firing before you hit the ground." I'll
give you two takes for that. Almost gets
it there. Then we do a second take.
Boom. That other one was probably a
little better even though you don't
really see it. I've got to go do
everything now. I got to cut it. I got
to add the sound effects myself. I got
to put the music in myself cuz music
guys would just end up filling it with
music and ruining it. Sound effects guys
would just fill it full of sound effects
and ruin it. I want all the sound to
drop out. So as he's jumping, all you
hear is the wind in his jacket, the
clinking of the bullets as they're
bouncing off. So you have this
breathless moment. No music. Cut the
music. And that moment you cut it so
that you're like, I wonder if he's going
to make it right. So I go home, I cut it
before I even have the visual effects
in. I just cut it that night because I
cut my own sound effects. I cut my sound
effects in. You can already tell it's
going to work. You can already see even
with the bullets not there, you can tell
by the sound where they're going to be.
It's going to work. I call them up said,
"Dude, this is going to work great." So
then I go to the effects guys and I go,
"Okay, there's bullet in this frame and
the next frame it's here cuz I used to
animate and the next frame it's there.
Then it hits the barrel and then it
starts bouncing this way." I want it
that clear so we can follow that a
bullet was supposed to go in and that it
bounced way over there and then this
bullet bounced way over there and they
they send it back and a bunch of bullets
come down. No, guys, listen to what I
say. I'm going to show you again. I'm
going to draw it to you again. Just the
sound will play like there's multiple
bullets flying. I don't need to see all
those bullets or the eyes not going to
know where to go. So then they got it
right. Brilliant. And then check this
out. I'm going to show it to dude twice
cuz you're not going to believe it.
Wow. Changes direction.
Wow. Wow. Crazy. Well done. You don't
even see that in a feature film, much
less a TV show. Well done. Just as a
director. Well done. Oh, thank here.
Just one more time and I'll show you
something you didn't notice both times.
[Music]
That's amazing. Just those decisions
coming together perfectly.
And like this, you got you got minutes
just uh moving the camera like you
decided to do really worked really well.
The balancing of the mattress, whatever.
And it's not like you have this whole
plan figured out ahead. You're literally
in the moment. You're it's coming
through you. But you're seeing, right?
I'm seeing it because I've done it
enough. That's why you really want to
learn all those jobs because you come
you come to a moment like this when the
shit's fucking hitting the fan. You got
to know how to pull it out. You could
have gotten all those people together
and they never would have figured that
out. You had one person had to see it
all the way through. you're seeing the
bullet how it's going to go in the in
the result. I've done it enough times to
know that if you don't do it just right,
you're gonna you're going to lose the
image. You're not going to know where to
follow and you'll miss the point. And
yeah, I love that you're thinking about
where the the eyes of the audience will
go. And that's
like like I I feel like too many people
might think about some more general uh
concept of a scene versus like the
audience where's their eye. Where's
their eye? Well, you're drawing you're
drawing it through sound through
picture. I'm going to show you If you
notice without the sound, you don't
really see him clip that thing back. The
sound is so essential here. Watch this.
You you you don't really right. I
thought I saw it. You think you saw it,
but you hear it, so you feel like see,
but watch. It's actually he's already
finished. You don't really see him do
it, you know, but you swear you saw it
in a close-up because the sound is in a
close-up. I put the sound in a close-up.
Now, here's another thing you didn't
notice. He hits this ground in the first
shot. Watch. 1 2 3 four five six seven
eight. You didn't notice it because I
didn't play the sound there. So if you
don't hear it, you don't see it. And if
you don't see it, but you play a sound,
you hear it and you see it in your mind,
right? So check that out now with the
sound on and you'll see both those parts
play completely different
now.
Right now you hear it. Right. See, like
I know he can get away with that because
I know editing and like if I don't play
the sound, I can go ahead and milk that
shot as long as I want. I'll make him be
in the air longer even though he's
actually touching the ground by not
playing the sound. And that comes from,
you said directing, but it's not
directing. Like people can direct and
say this is what I want. But to actually
execute it, you need to be a craftsman.
And to be a craftsman, you have to learn
all those crafts. And not just with the
visuals, but with the sound. With the
sound, too. Sound is so important. Sound
is half the picture.
sound. And if you cut sound, you realize
how important sound is. I would learn so
much by doing those movies like
Desperado action movies where you go,
"Wow, the sound. I can add an extra
sound effect of an extra punch he didn't
even throw and it sounds like he's
beating the shit out of this guy and you
only need to see one or two hits and you
can hear five." You know, you know, you
know where you can push your limits
because you've done it. You've done it
and you've got the experience. You know,
it's so amazing that you can use sound
to make a person believe they saw
something that wasn't actually there on
the screen. Yeah. your brain fills it
in. That's crazy. And that's why that's
so important because if you don't know
that, you'll be on the set shooting 10
takes of that cuz you're like, "No, he
didn't. No, I I didn't see him click it
back. He didn't see I I didn't see him
click it back. That's that's really
needed. I can do that with sound. Let's
just go. Let's just keep moving." When
you say sound closeup, was that So, so
the sound all the other sound dropped
away and all you hear is like the sound
like the mic's right on that thing so
that you hear it so big in your ear that
you swear it was in close-up, too. But
just the sound was close. How do you uh
sorry, just to give an insight into like
that process of sound design, what are
you uh like listening to the sound and
just like experiencing the feeling that
creates and then you're like that's just
playing and post a lot. So I have a
whole library of sound effects from all
my movies. So I can pull up like the gun
sound we created for Bruce Willis and
Sin City and use that and mix it with
Antonio's gun from Desperado. You know,
I remember in Four Rooms, there's a
scene where the billhop goes into the
hotel room, jams his key into it, and
clicks it. And I used all gun sounds for
the sounds of the key instead of key
sounds because it wasn't sound closeup
enough. So, if you listen to it, you
hear you hear like all these sounds from
gun to do the key because it's like that
conveys the sound better, you know? I'll
use different kinds of sounds that just
have impact and put it somewhere like
when he hits the ground or so I like
playing with all that in post when I'm
editing because it makes my editing job
easier. Sometimes it's like, oh, the
sound is covering me. I don't I don't
need to keep trying to massage this. The
sound is actually selling it. And so I
keep those sound effects into the final
movie. So it's just all part of
necessary. It's like it's like being a
chef. If you're there cooking and you're
going like, I know the recipe says this,
but I think it really could use
jalapenos and some extra pepper or maybe
a little more salt. And then it needs an
acid of some kind. So, I'm going to add
some lemon juice. Yeah. You made me
realize I'm not sure where I saw that,
but you were you were talking about
making sort of almost looks like home
films for fun. And I think you mentioned
how exciting you can make a very mundane
scene by just adding song. There was I
think there was like a little kid with
this car. You have one of those little
and but I added a motor sound to it and
it's like wow and it sounds realistic
somehow like I
don't and then we're playing with these
little cars filming ourselves playing
with the cars
but then I replace it with real car
sounds
and it just your brain links the reality
of the real thing and you realize how
unimportant the visual is and how
important the sound is. Actually sound
is everything. That's why I was really
lucky in mariachi that my camera didn't
work for sound cuz then I got really
good sound that I would have gotten with
a shitty mic out of frame because that's
the first telltale sign of a lowbudget
movie is bad sound. Bad sound right
away. You can already hear all this hiss
and all this mic was too far and you're
like lowbudget movie before your eyes
even tell you the sound gives it away.
Isn't that amazing? The audio is first.
Sound is first really even though it's a
visual medium. That's so crazy. Um, just
on the what's the plan with the with the
four action films? Like what what what
are the next steps? I'll probably direct
more than one cuz there's already
several that I want to do, but I was I'm
going to direct at least one, but I'm
producing all three. All four there at
my studio. It does draw you in. It draws
you in and it makes you go now think of
ideas you never would have thought of
before. Mainly because it has a filter.
Well, now I I don't have to think of all
these ideas. I can only I actually have
like that like me on that set. There's
only very few things I can actually come
up with that are just action driven
first that have a great character.
You'll get to it a lot faster with a
filter. That's the beauty of a filter is
that now you've just shrunk your your
target and now you can hit that target
and people are coming up with ideas
because now they've got proximity and
they've got a reason to come up with the
idea and they've got a deadline which is
the best thing you can do is have a
deadline because when you have a
deadline you can freaking move
mountains. You know, I had a Spy Kids in
the theater every year, three years in a
row, not being pre-planned. Every year
there was a Spy Kids. Now, the third one
was the biggest one, biggest cast,
mostly green screen video game, and the
first digital 3D movie ever. So, getting
visual effects companies to make that.
We realized, oh, I shot it with two
cameras. That means each effect shot has
to be done twice from a different angle.
So, I went to the studio midway through
that and said, "There's not going to be
a movie in the theaters in time. You're
going to have to push the date back."
And they said, "Okay, we've never heard
you panic. We'll push the date back for
you." They called back 10 minutes later.
I was like, "Oh, thank God." Cuz it's
really complicated. I know it was going
to be this complicated, but I I wanted a
challenge. And they said that McDonald's
will sue us for $20 million if you move
the date. You have to have a movie in
the theater. We started shooting that
movie in January of 2003. It was in 3D
in theaters by July. That's the fastest
any effects movie has ever been done.
That's because you had no choice. So,
deadline makes you do things and make
decisions really quickly and it was the
biggest of the three. Deadlines are good
and uh it's hard for us to self-impose a
deadline sometimes because we know it's
a bullshit deadline and your brain knows
it's bullshit. But why do deadlines
work? Because when the deadines's coming
up, what do you do?
you you start you start to put the pen
to the paper and it starts just flowing.
You have no choice. You have to get out
of the way and open the pipe and it just
comes out and you're shocked. You're
like, "Oh my god, I should do everything
at the last minute." Well, no, you don't
have to. But if you just learn how to
open that pipe earlier, you wouldn't be
in a rush. But you had to get out of
your way because your deadline was up
and you had to come up with it. So many
people are going to come up with all
these extra great ideas at the last
minute. They've already but I I it looks
like everyone who's already signing on
because they didn't it's cool they don't
know when the deadline is they keep
writing in saying when is the deadline
for this and we say well when when we
close the funding in May but we didn't
say when still so I think that gives
them like a sense of a deadline like
shit it might be May 1st or maybe May
2nd so we better get my idea going. So I
think it works in your favor because
then you come up with stuff and you're
going to feel so enriched by doing the
idea that you're not going to care if it
gets picked or not. you're gonna love
this idea so much it could turn into 10
other things you never even thought
about. That's the beauty of doing a
project. Nothing ever goes to waste. So
many ideas that were sitting around that
I'd come up with and put a lot of time
in are now like, "Oh, I can do these
now. I I have I know how to finish it."
Now, I have to ask you about Alita. So,
you've done so many incredibly
innovative projects. This is one of
them. It turned out to be this visual
masterpiece. There's a bunch of
complexity, beautiful complexity about
it in that it started out as a film that
James Cameron was supposed to make.
Yeah. And then you started to
collaborate with him on it and these two
I would say brilliant directors but with
different styles like you were talking
about. And so plus there's the
complexity of for people who haven't
seen it, you're putting this artificial
creation, this beautiful photorealistic
artificial creation of a human being
into a real world. So you have to
capture the the performance, not just
the motion, but the performance of this
actor, put them into this with the power
of technology into the real world. So
convey all the emotion, the richness of
the human face. Can you just speak to
the process of bringing that world to
life? Sure. I mean, one I never would
have attempted if it wasn't Jim because
Jim has has figured a lot of this out.
So, just to get you again, remember like
I said, hey Jim, I'm operating a steady
cam. What do you think of that? Well,
I'm designing a new system. That's
always how it is between him and I. So,
when I went to show him Desperado when
it was done, he said, "You you might not
want to sit through. If you don't want
to sit through it while I'm watching it,
it's fine. Do you want to read any of my
scriptments? My treatment treatment
scripts, you know, called scriptments."
Said, "Sure." He goes, "I have
Spider-Man and I got Avatar." So, this
was in 95. He was showing me the
Scriptman for Avatar, which there was no
technology for that. He was already Wow.
doing stuff that didn't exist. Yeah. And
I was reading it going like, "This is a
great story." He's like, "I don't know
how the fuck's going to do this. It's
impossible. It's not even He' just done,
you know, Terminator 2 a few years
before. It's like that was state of the
art."
So Alita was going to be the movie he
did first to prepare for Avatar. And so
he had already done some prep work on
it. It was based on a
manga, but before they did that, they
just started doing some tests for
Avatar. And then as they got deeper into
the test for Avatar to prepare for
Alita, they went, I guess we're making
Avatar first. So Alita got kind of
pushed to the side and they ended up
doing it which ended up becoming such a
journey to make that movie to get the
technology to build it to make it
because I remember visiting him on the
set. I mean I've known him so long I was
on the set of Titanic. That's how long
I've been around this guy. I was on the
set of Titanic. I was on the set with
Sarah Connor and Arnold Schwarzenegger
and Eddie Furlong for the 3D ride he
made for Universal a few years later.
So, I mean, I feel like I've been around
him a lot of his career and to be able
to visit the set, you know, of Avatar
and remember him showing me
like artwork they did, very
photorealistic. And he goes, "Curious to
see how photoreal it'll be when we're
finally done with this process cuz you
don't get to see it till it's almost
done." And I was like, "Wow, he's just
shooting blind. He's really talk about
me shooting mariachi, not seeing the
footage. He's making this whole movie
not even knowing what the end result's
going to look like at all because you're
not going to know till you get there.
And when you get there, if you don't
like it, there's not a lot you can do.
So, I just seeing him do that and have
that success really made it easier for
me to do Alita because then it's like,
okay, we don't know. Again, we don't
need to know. We know we'll get there,
but we don't know how we're going to do
it. We're going to start. And anything
that I would come up with on this movie
and his team because he had all his wed
people working on it, he had them all
working on it too. I I do a fast version
of the of his process because it's a lot
of live action. Avatar is mostly CG. I
have live action sets. You have to come
to my studio cuz I still have the whole
Alita city in my back lot. Well, here
the troublemaker studio. Yeah, that's
where it was. Yeah, it was shot here.
So, when you go see my city, I built it
very resourceful. This is weird. It
looks just like the town from Mariachi,
but it's in my backyard. I'm like, it
looks better than the town from
Mariachi. Yeah. 90,000. It's the biggest
largest standing set in the country
because sets are always mowed down for
the next movie, but I just kept it
there. So, we should shoot it all the
time for Mexico or South America or
Europe or whatever. It's seven streets
and we added digitally above it. The
ceilings are 20 ft high. You got to come
see. You won't believe that it's here.
It's it's unbelievable. Where is it?
North of Austin. It's where the old
airport was. So it's like on 51st
Street, you know, it's like really close
to town. I would love to visit. You got
to come see. You're not going to believe
it. All my props, all my stuff from all
my movies. So people who are, you know,
in investing in Brass Knuckle, that's
why they say it's like a Willy Wonka
movie because they they're going to get
to come check out all that stuff and and
and be in proximity and see, oh, like me
with that painter. It's not a trick.
He's just doing it. I then you realize
you can do it, too. But um we thought
let's shoot mostly live action and we'll
just replace her. But we still have to
figure her out. You have to cast the
right actress. And when I saw Rose
Salazar, she was just amazing. She made
me cry and audition for the first time.
I was like, "Oh my god, this person has
something." If we can capture even a a
fourth of her facial expression, it'll
bring so much life. And they got it one
to one. And uh it really helped Jim on
the next Avatar and Weda because they
got to try on a bunch of things. That's
why Avatar the second avatar wave of
water looks so much more refined than
the first avatar because of that middle
step of doing Alita. It was training
ground for them. Can you actually
educate me on the wet process? Is this
like a a performance capture technology?
Yeah, we have her in a suit for
capturing her body movements but also
facial capture. It's a performance
capture of all her performance, all her
emoting, and we have witness cameras
around everywhere to pick up where she
is. And everything else is real, and
we're just replacing her, but with
someone even smaller in size. So, you
have to erase everything behind her.
There's like like a bunch of technical
things you to do, but the idea is to
whatever performance she gives, she's
such a great actress, is to capture all
of that because then this character that
doesn't even exist will feel very
emotional and and you have to you have
to be tied to it. You have to feel its
heart and she was the heartbeat of it.
So she's acting with all this acting
with all that but it just disappear you
know she it's not even it's like it's
not even there like we don't notice this
is here it's like that she can just
perform through it. What was some
interesting unique challenging things
about you directing her performance in
this in this kind of world. I just I
just knew she had to be her. It was
going to be just so easy with her. She's
just so great. She everything was just
so real and everything was like she's
that character. she becomes that
character who's seen this world for the
first time. No special effects going to
help you with that if the performance
isn't there. So, it was all about
getting the performance and casting the
right actors. That's why you get
Kristoff Waltz there and you get
Jennifer Connelly, you know, these
masters are all on the set, Marshall
Ali, you know, you've got an amazing
cast of people and that's really the the
heart of it so that the technology kind
of goes away. How hard is it to get the
actors to act when like the full world
is not around you? We put so much of the
world around them. Like when you see the
city, we put like a blue screen way in
the back to just make the city keep
going. But we built the sets there, the
town, we built the real set so
everything was very tangible and real.
And that way she had to fit into that
world and be as real as that. Because if
it was all done in CG, well then now you
can fudge everything. But if you put her
in a real environment, that's a real
challenge. And that really helps them on
avatar because that whole place is
created in avatar. You could get away
with a lot, but they wanted to commit to
that kind of detail and on the next
avatar. That's why it just feels like
you're really there. Um, it's just
stunning. And you get there by having
something to work on like this to to
take the technology to the next level.
So, it was cool to be able to help, you
know, uh, knowing that you're being
helpful to him in his process and not
just distracting him. But then also, he
liked that his artist had something else
to work on besides just Avatar to just
work on something, you know, different
to freshen up their perspective on
things and methodology. And so, yeah,
that was a a really exciting movie to
work on. And then we got to shoot it
here, a Jim Cameron movie here in
Austin. That was the best having him
here. that my whole crew who's worked
with me 25, 30 years, everyone had an
extra spring in their step cuz they're
like, "Wow, we're working on a Jim
Cameron movie." I mean, that's just like
a high bar of achievement for everybody,
you know, working on it. Since we talked
about a few other directors, can you
speak to the genius of James Cameron,
like what what makes him special? You
talked about some of the difference in
your approach in his uh he's created
some of the most special movies ever
also. What's behind that? What would you
say is interesting about the way his
creative mind works? I think any of
those guys, George Lucas, you know, him,
you know, John Lasser when he did Pixar,
it's a mix of, and this was I got really
lucky. My first job was a Photoshop cuz
my dad had a friend who owned a
Photoshop. He said, "Your summer job
when I was 16, go over my friend Mario."
So, I go to Mario's Photoshop and I'm,
you know, developing pictures or, you
know, think you develop photos from
film.
And he said, "Here, take this camera
home. Give me one of his cameras. Take
this camera home and some film. I need
you to learn how to use the camera so
you can help me sell the cameras. Yeah.
So I went home and you know I have a
bunch of siblings. So like well the
stars of Bedhead taking all these
pictures of everybody. I take it back
and he looks at the pictures when he
develops. He's like whoa these are
really creative. You're a creative
person.
So when sometimes people tell you
something that that don't you can't
unhear and he goes that's a gift but you
need to know now now you need to become
technical because most creative people
need technicians and technicians always
need creative people because they're not
usually the same. You're born with
creativity. It's against your nature to
be technical but you can learn if you
apply yourself. And if you're both
technical and
creative you'll be unstoppable. And I
was like unstoppable? Wow. So here I
want you to learn zone photography and
like an I want you to learn this this
the technical part of it. So that's why
I didn't take a crew in mariachi because
I knew if I'm just the creative person
and I I need a crew to go actually
technically make the movie, I'll always
need something. And when you want to
really change your life, you want to get
your I need list down
to little as possible. Because if you're
like, well, I want to shoot my movie,
but I need a cameraman and I need
somebody who knows how to lie to your
your I need list keeps growing. That's
further and further and further you will
be from what you need to accomplish. So,
I kind of went down there without any
help so that remember that script
analogy where the guy said, "Throw away
three scripts." I said, "No, I'm going
to write three scripts and then shoot
each one so I get better at each one of
those jobs so I can learn to be
technical." My technical capability was
so little. Like, I'm literally calling
the guy on the phone. How do I use this
camera? You know, that's how little I
knew about it. But I knew by doing the
job I would learn by being both. That's
really the key. So Jim Cameron is like
that. Jim Cameron, when you think of
those guys, George Lucas, very technical
and very creative. John Lner, very
technical, but very creative. Pixar, Jim
Cameron, very technical, very creative.
Putting those two things together is
really what sets you apart from other
technicians and other creative people.
And it's very, very powerful. A lot of
creative people, again, it's against
their nature to be technical. They don't
want to do it. Make yourself do it. Read
the manuals, take the lessons. It frees
you up because then you can go do like,
you know, I just showed you in that
demo. You're able to now be a technical
person and creative and then you're
unstoppable. He's one of the best at it.
And he just knows how to craft a story.
He's very analytical as well. Like we we
bounce off each other in a funny way. He
goes, "Man, he came down to visit my
studio before he did Alita."
you only surround yourself with people
who are like you. Like you exude
creativity, you know, from every poor
and so does everyone at your studio. And
I go, "Yeah, I never think I didn't hire
them that way on purpose, but I think if
you're not that way, you kind of know,
you don't belong there and you kind of
leave." Yeah. And then I went to his
studio and there are a bunch of Jim
Camerons there. They're like, "Oh my
god, they're all very technical. Yeah,
you can't get all kind of fuzzy with the
with the logic or the you can't get you
can't get really creative with the
physics or anything. They're like, "No,
that's not how it would work. It would
be and they're just wow, super great at
what they do. Bar is sky high and
they're all like that." Cuz yeah, if
you're not part of if you're not like
that, you can't hang with those guys.
You can't hang with him very long. I
heard a story where the guitar case
being a rocket launcher where to you
create this real world where everything
is possible, the magic feels real. And
for James Cameron, he has to know how a
guitar case would work that would
actually be able to double as a rocket
launcher. When I show him the trailer
for Grindhouse and he sees the machine
gun leg and all that, he just goes,
"Whoa, that's unbridled film making from
the id." It makes sense only the second
you're watching it, not a second after,
but the second you're watching it, you
believe it. But he's uh he's really
interesting in that he's so prolific. I
walked into his writing
studio and it'd be like on a one of the
tables like you have those papers there.
Imagine them that thick, that thick,
that thick. All script script script.
What are these? He goes, "This is a
whole, you know, space opera version of
this movie. We're not making that one."
It's like he's just cranking out all the
stuff like again, can I take this and go
get this, please?
Yeah, we bounce off each other because I
loved his his analytical part of his
brain. I'm not that analytical. I'm just
kind of like, hey, I'm really creative
feeling. I'm like, woo, I'll go this way
and then, woo, I'll go that way. And he
likes that about me, but I like I I want
to go I think about things too much.
Like, you think about things like
what makes a movie a billion dollar hit?
What are the elements that you need? And
I'm going to analyze that and I'm going
to make sure my movie does that. He
engineers a submarine that can break the
world record. He engineers a movie that
can break the world record. You know,
he's like he has that engineering mind,
but the creative part that's very rare.
So, that's very rare. And he's
capitalizes on both. He had this
submarine model like this big on his
desk, the one that he broke the world
record for going and just seeing it and
knowing him having kids and stuff and
wife and I'm like, "Weren't you afraid
going down there with, you know,
something could happen?" It's like, "No,
I wasn't afraid." Like, "Why not?" And
he goes, "Because I designed the escape
vehicle." Yeah, if it was any other
bozo, I'd be afraid. But he designed the
escape. That kind of confidence, that's
him. He just knows if some other bozo
had designed the escape vehicle, I would
be afraid. But total confidence. He did
it. The confidence of extreme
confidence. That's brilliant. Just to
get you like excited about how creative
this stuff is. So, Desperado was the
only movie on the Sony lot being edited
digitally. Mhm. Not only was I editing
on a computer, I was editing in my
house, which in 1994 was just unheard
of. So, I'm there in my house and they
made me cut in LA cuz they were cuz at
first I told the studio, I want to edit
Desperado myself cuz it's important that
I edit it. They go, no, you can't. Why
not? We've never had a director edit his
own movie
here. So, we don't want to set a
precedent case. I thought it would give
you too much power. I said, "This is the
power of precedent." I said, "Well, you
bought Mariachi and I edited that." So,
I said, "Okay, but you're going to have
to edit in LA so we can watch cuz we
don't think you know what you're doing."
We saw the footage and the shots are
really short. It's too short. I was
like, "Shots are too short." Oh, cuz I
was shooting my cuts. You know, like
they're used to seeing footage. Antonio
walks into the bar and it's going to be
a dialogue scene. They expect the whole
thing done from a wide shot. I would
shoot the wide shot. He walks in, "Cut,
move the camera. Let's get over here cuz
we wanted to cuz I'm not going to use it
for the rest of the scene. I know we're
going to get into coverage cuz I've
already cut it." So I was like, "Huh,
that's interesting." So I cut the first
scene. If you've ever seen Desperado,
the first scene is the best scene.
Steam's telling a story. He's talking
about the myth of the mariachi. He's
doing crazy. It's crazy. Great scene. So
then they come over. I say, "Hey, you
come see my first scene." So they come
over to my house, they watch it. Okay,
you know what you're doing. They leave.
But I was cutting Desra in my house that
I rented there. And then we shot Dustl
Dawn at the same time. So I was cutting
Desperado four rooms and Dustto Don
myself. I'm the editor. I don't have an
editing team other than the ones who
import it into the machine. So Del Toro
came over, Sodberg came over. Can I
borrow it for schizopholis? No one had
heard of somebody having an Avid in
their living room. Jim comes over and he
goes, I hear you have an Avid in your
living room. And I go, "Yeah, come check
it out." I just like I roll out of bed.
It's like sounds unremarkable because
this what you do right now, but back in
'94, it was unheard of. I'm cutting
three movies at the same time myself. I
roll out of bed, I come here, I can cut
Desperado, I can cut Dust. And he went,
"That's it. I hate working with
editors." You know, when I was doing
Terminator 2, they wouldn't even let me
put the Bad to the Bone song in
Terminator 2 because they didn't think
it would work. And I had to sneak into
the edit room at night on the weekend to
cut it in and then show them the next
day. It's like, that's your own movie.
You can't give that kind of power to
people. He said, "I I hate working with
editors. I'm going to I'm going to do
this. I'm going to tear down a wall in
my house. I'm going to put it in a I'm
going to cut my next movie." Yeah. And
he did. He got an Oscar for editing
Titanic. I can't do other editors. But
now, no one ever took him for a ride
like that again. He edits on every
movie. He has other editors, but he can
go do his own cuts. When he shows me
like footage, he's showing me himself on
his own machine. And it's like again it
it gives you all those tools to be able
to really find your vision that you're
looking for because you can't always
explain it to somebody because you don't
always know yourself. It's part of you
kind of come up with it as you do the
process. Just on a small tangent about
the different software and the
technologies involved. So you mentioned
Avid as Premiere Pro. Premiere was still
in its early stages and I think
Soderberg looked at it and it said,
"Yeah, I can't afford an avid for this
movie. I'm going to go do it." I think
he started cutting on Premiere. But um
I'm sure it's all better now. I just
have always used an Avid because I just
always rent it back to the same
production. I think I've just I I don't
have to buy a new one. But there's lots
of good I've hear about all kinds of
systems. I just use the same one. I I
guess that's the question I have for you
is it's just interesting for people.
It's very interesting to me just the the
details use Avid. Like what do you like
multiple monitors? One monitor. I have a
couple monitors and then one big monitor
to watch it if I'm watching the scene
back because the monitors are still a
little wacky. I mean if I ever designed
my own system, I'd probably design it
differently. But I'm literally I've
worked on that thing since 94. I still
don't know all the shortcuts and all
this shit. I still use it like my tape
deck. Play, rewind, pause, and I can cut
so fast with that. Just I don't use the
mouse for shortcuts. I'm just like, so
you found your way, the preferred way,
the workflow of using it. And now you
can sort of let go of the technical and
be creative. Yeah, just be creative.
It's just a tool. It's just a tool. And
it's like it doesn't matter what system
it is. It's like if you can get it to
work for you, great. Like there's a lot
of problems I have with it that I that I
would I know are probably fixed on
another system, but that they'll have a
whole other set of problems. So it's
like, well, why bother with that? You
know, there's limitations I think that
it has that would need to be fixed, but
not for what I'm doing. I mean, I can
still do what I need. It feels like part
of the artistry is every system has
limitations, and you learn how to work
around those limitations. I mean, yeah.
Well, like my my first VCRs, like those
things, those things were I was always
known for taking what little basic
equipment and milking the shit out of
it, what it could pushing the boundaries
of what it can do. And now it's flipped.
Now you're working on a program and you
can spend 10 years on this thing and
you're scratching the surface of what
it's capable of. It's totally flipped
the other way. I'm not milking anything
anymore. I'm I'm barely getting, you
know, the smallest capability of it
because I would have to spend a lot of
time to figure out all the stuff that it
can possibly do. And I'm sure it's all
great, fantastic stuff, but what a
different world than when I grew up
where it was like, okay, let me splice
these two sound things together and it
was so hard to get it to do, but people
would be like, you got that movie out of
that equipment. Where now it's the other
way around, you know? It's like all this
equipment is great. So when people come
to me and say, I've got I've only got
this camera. I was like that that
camera's 10 times better than anything I
had for my first 15 years of film
making. So you have no complaints. This
is like you can just start now and just
start making stuff. Uh I have a lot of
friends who are huge fans of your uh
movies. So one of them asked me that
absolutely must ask you do you know if
there's sequel of Alita coming. We're
working on it. We're definitely working
on it. Jim and I both want to make it.
That's usually when we meet we talk
about it. Um I gave him something to
read. you know, he's a little busy with
his Avatar movie, but I'm going to get
I'm going to see him again soon and
we'll see where it's at. But we would
love to make another one. We have ideas
on how to do it cuz it was always built
to be a trilogy. And uh he sees that
there's a lot of love for it. It was
just weird cuz it was a Fox movie and
they got bought by Disney, you know, and
then so they weren't really making Fox
movies because they had enough Disney
had enough work with their Disney
movies. But now they've started to make
some Fox movies like they did Deadpool
and some Fox movies are starting to get
made. So time might be right for us to
come back and do an Alita. No, I hope
you do soon. It's uh but it is I mean
you do so many different kinds of
movies. That's a whole different kind of
puzzle, right? Yeah. No, but it's not a
bad one. It's a good one. It's a cool
It's one one of the few like usually I
make kids family kids movies or R-rated
action horror movies. And that was the
first time I got to do a PG-13 movie
which was kind of like it had a lot of
action but it was for families could
watch it too. It was kind of like the
best of all worlds. have to ask you
about Boston City. One of my favorite
films of all time. It was a visually
stunning world. What are some maybe
interesting, detailed aspects about you
creating that world? This is why you
just got to follow your nose and go do
something. You know, Jim and I were both
into 3D early on. Like I visited his set
for the Terminator 3D ride. Dust till
Dawn. I wanted to be 3D. Actually, when
they got to the bar, if you watch from
that point on, everything's kind of set
up for three. everything was shooting
into the camera and all this, but the
cameras they had for 3D and film were
those old shitty ones. They were so bad
that I went, "Okay, we can't do it." But
I really wanted people to have to put on
glasses when they got into into the bar
and it was going to turn into a 3D
different movie. I got to do that on Spy
Kids
3D. So when I did Spy Kids 3D, I
thought, "Oh, if I get Jim's cameras
that he's done for these underwater 3D,
you know, documentaries, I can make the
first digital 3D film for theaters." And
so I did and it seemed like the easiest
way was to utilize that when you put on
the glasses when you go into a game
world. So there's a green screen and we
shot all the actors on green screen for
all the game stuff and we could do lot
of 3D stuff coming at kids' faces when
they're reaching. My 3D is is not like
the kind they have in theaters where
it's very polite. Mine's like theme park
3D where kids are doing like that trying
to grab. That's why it was such a big
hit. Nobody does 3D like that. But I I
wanted that. I want shit falling in
people's laps, you know? So you remember
so you go, okay, this is why I'm wearing
the glasses. I'm wondering why. And when
I went to go make my next movie, so this
is how crazy we shot Spy Kids 3.
Remember I told you how fast they came
out. That was in the summer of 2003. Few
months later, Once Upon a Time Mexico
came out. Two number one movies. Both
were finishing trilogies of mine. They
and each one starred Antonio Danny Tjo
Marin. When I was editing those at the
same time, you'd be like, "Whoa, one
movie they're killing people and the
other ones are like with the kids going
like, "Hey, family." So, it was really,
you know, fun. It was fun to It's easier
to do very different things than to do
like two action movies or two family
movies at the same time. But I was like,
"Okay, what's my next movie going to be?
Oh shit, how crazy is this?" Okay, so
Antonio is on the set. I'm going to
shoot him out in half a day for Spike is
3D cuz he's only in the last scenes on
the green screen. Shoot him till lunch.
Okay, now go away. Put on your desperado
outfit cuz we owed some shots from Once
Upon a Time Mexico on the green screen.
He finished two trilogies in the same
day. That's got to be a first if ever.
No one's ever finished two trilogies in
the same day. And it's just kismmet, you
know. It's just how it h happened to
happen that day was just luck or the
universe or whatever. But I needed to
make something new now. So I was looking
through my bookshelves of inspiration
and I picked up my Sin City books which
I've had I used to be a cartoonist and I
always loved how he drew that. Every
time I'd see a different edition I'd buy
it, go home and go, "Oh, I already have
this. I got like three copies of this
already." It would just always grab me
by the throat. And I like that he was a
writer director in a way cuz he would
not just wrote the comic, but he drew it
too. A lot of times it's a different
writer and a different comic artist.
He's like a real like a kinship, you
know? This is someone who writes and
directs his own thing. But I was looking
at it and I went, "Oh shit, I know how
to do this now. I just did it on the
green screen. If I shoot this on green
screen, the actors on green screen, I
can make the backgrounds look just like
this and I can contrast up the actors
and I could get this very graphic look,
which sometimes for a window, it's just
a white box. So, it's even got a sliding
scale for budget. If I run out of money,
just put the actors in black and white.
just put like a white dot behind him for
a street light and that looks just like
the book. So, I'm going to bring the
book to life. So, I'll show you how fast
we go from development at
Troublemaker. It was
October. Once upon a time, Mexico would
come
out. I was like, "Oh shit, I know how to
do this now." Sin City, I'm gonna do a
test. Went to my green screen here in my
studio. You'll see my green screen where
I shot all these movies. And I shot, you
know, my sister, myself, put it black
and
white. Looks just like the comic, but
it's moving. So I I call a a comic book
artist friend of mine, Mike Alred, and I
said, "Uh, do you have Frank Miller's
number?" And you He goes, "Yeah, I do."
Okay, I'm going to call him up. So I
call Frank Miller. Hey, this is Rob
Rodriguez. I have a test I want to show
you for City. I'm going to be in New
York tomorrow. He's like, "Tomorrow?
Okay. Yeah, sure. Come by. Meet me at
this bar." Okay. Book a flight for New
York. I didn't have a I fly up there. I
have my laptop just like this. Yeah. I
go to the bar. I show him what looks
like an image from his comic and it
starts moving.
And he's like, "Wow, how did you do
that?" I said, "I got my own studio and
all this." And then I started tell, man,
let's make this movie cuz no one had the
rights to it. He never gave the rights
to a studio. A lot of comics, oh, Warner
Brothers bought this a while back, you
know, or then you got to go through the
studio. He still owned his own rights.
In fact, he'd gotten burned by Hollywood
so many times as a screenwriter that he
said, "Fuck it. I'm gonna go back and
draw a comic that's so raw that can
never be made into a movie." So, of
course, I call him, "Hey, let's make a
great movie." So, I show him how we can
do it. And I go, "I know you don't know
me and you're not going to you have to
ear I have to earn your trust for you to
give me your
baby. Uh, but we can make this right
away." And he's like uh he's all excited
for about two seconds and then he goes,
"Oh, no. Oh, then we got to write a
script and then the studio is going to
have notes. All that shit he's been
through before anyway. It's not like
that. I have a whole different setup. I
got my own studio in Austin. This is how
it's going to be. If you like this idea,
I'm going to you're not going to have to
take any risk. Let me take all the
risk. I'm going to go write the script
myself next month. It's going to be
unremarkable because I'm going to write
it right out of your book. I'm going to
just do I'm going to edit three of the
stories down. I'm going to just take
stuff out really. I might add a few
things to connect it, but I'll write the
script in December myself. No money
involved. Then we'll call some actor
friends of mine. We'll have them come to
my green screen. We'll shoot the opening
scene as a test, but it's also the
opening scene. I'll do the effects
myself. We'll do the sound, do the
music. I'll do fake credits. We'll watch
it together. If you like what you see,
we'll make the movie. You give me the
rights then. If you don't like it, keep
it. It's a short film to show your
friends. This be really cool. So, he's
like, "All right." There's nothing on
him to do. It's all on me. I write the
script in December, January. Josh
Arnett, Marley Shelton come down, fly
Frank in shooting for 10 hours on my
green screen. We shoot that opening
sequence. Incredible opening sequence.
Record his voice over right then in my
little voiceover booth. Marley Shelton
comes up. Why did I hire him to kill me?
I don't know. Let's go ask Frank. He's
right here. Let's go ask Frank. I want
to know myself. So he tells her and he's
like, I want to do this movie. He's
already I like I tell you, Frank, I used
to be a cartoonist. It's the same thing.
You're already a director. You're just
using a pen instead of a camera. The
performances you get out of your paper
actors are phenomenal. The shots you do
are like beyond any DP has ever done.
And the visual look, we've never seen
that. I want to just take this and make
it move. I just want the comic to move.
Any other studio would just go make it
look like any gritty crime movie and
they would they would miss the point
that it's the visual is half of it. I
want it to look just like this because
it would be the boldest movie anyone's
seen because that's how it reads when I
read the book. Cuz like if this was
moving, it would be the most phenomenal
movie. In fact, asked him, "Do you ever
feel like directing any any of these
short ones?" I thought about directing
The Big Fat Kill maybe as a short film.
You should come direct that one. Shit,
you should direct all of them with me
because I'm really copying and writing a
book. You should direct it with me. All
right, let's go. So then uh January.
Okay, so remember I I met him in
November. I wrote it in December.
January, we shoot the test. Took me a
couple weeks to do the effects. He loves
it. I make a meeting with Bruce Willis.
Show it to Bruce Willis. What's so cool
about doing that opening scene is that
any actor I show it to now I show him
the book which is awesome. You'd be
playing this character but look at this
test. Let me show you the book what it
looked like before I turned this test
into a test. Watches it Josh Arnett
voice over music titles come on first
name on the screen Bruce Willis and I go
hey look you're in the credits you have
to do it now manifesting it right. He's
like shit man this is great I'm in. He's
in. Wow. go get everyone else from that
was just easy to get. And we were
filming the movie. So,
February,
right? Building the few little sets we
had like the bar. I told Frank, "We
don't need to build a bar, but I'm going
to go ahead and build a bar so we have a
place to go have script meetings.
Everything else will be green screen.
We'll build fake steps and things out of
green." So, we're doing that and I'm
casting the first one. We're shooting
the movie by March, the beginning of
March. And I remember because my son was
born March
3rd and I was in LA for his birth
because I was also recording the
orchestra for the score I wrote somehow
in the past few months for Kill Bill 2.
That's how much stuff was going on.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's like when
you just let it flow, you're just riding
the wave. You're not doing any of that.
So that's what's by staying in that like
urgent there's always the deadlines are
just pushing you to create stuff and we
shot the movie so fast in record time.
Now not only that I shot a whole other
movie that year. I shot the adventures
of Shark Poor and Lava Girl with kids
that came out two months after Sin City
the next year within less than a year
Sin City was out. You're shooting that
in parallel with Sin City. That's
hilarious. Is that great? Yeah. Like
sometimes we'd be shooting with the kids
and then the afternoon Regar would come
and some of the Sin City girls to finish
you know shooting stuff that we needed
to film. It was just insane how fast we
had to move. I was doing it in my edit.
I was editing. I just edited it and then
I I would scan the uh artwork into the
uh computer and I would edit the
storyboards with the sound effects and
and I would do the voiceover. I would
imitate Mickey and I would imitate Bruce
Mhm. and lay out the how fast it was
going to move and you were like, "Wow."
So now we have a template with the real
drawings and the lighting on how we're
going to do it. It was funny because I I
could do pretty good in Bruce Willis
because I knew so long. We were doing
his voice over and he would hear my
guide voice for the timing and he'd be
like, "Is that me? Is that you?" Can't
tell. I like that one was me. But just
do that. It's like, "Oh, man. It sounds
like me." First of all, why haven't
films like that been made? Well, it's a
very specific look because it went to
the comic. The first piece of music I
wrote for that was the main title, and I
called it Descent. I wanted the notes to
descend because it felt like you were
descending into this dark world, and you
don't come out till the end of the
movie. You're just like in this world
where all these layers of unreality like
water doesn't photograph that way. Snow
doesn't photo but it's there and you're
seeing it and you're seeing the actors.
So you're just really it's like a dream
world. Yeah. So I was really into it and
I did test for the most difficult shots
first. Like how do I get his his tape to
glow in the dark like in the comic so
it's still in the shadow? And I realized
oh use fluorescent tape and a
fluorescent light that way I can keep it
we can still key it. Like I started just
doing my own visual effects like that
early on because I knew technology was
changing so fast that I would need to
just know how to do it like a like a
magician. Shooting digital, nobody
wanted to touch digital back then. DPS
were all afraid of digital. They didn't
want to have to learn something new. So
I had to DP it. So me photographing it,
I'm like it's so funny to cut because I
mean to to light like you have to have
that light out of frame right now. But I
could bring the lights in right here as
long as it was they're not crossing it.
I'm just going to take it out of the
green anyways. I could have the coolest
lighting on everybody. Cool edge lights.
You could have an edge light back here,
an edge light back here, a fill light
here. Like I erase him. I just take him
out. Can you educate me and people
curious about this? Like what is the
power of
light when you're telling a story? When
you're creating a feeling, an experience
like what's the artistry of that? Well,
if you look at the drawings too,
sometimes it's the absence of light.
like you would see this face, but then
this would be completely black, but you
would still see my eye, which is like
impossible, right? But you believe it
when you see it because it's there. So
things like that were a lot of the
tricks I tried first cuz I like that
about it. It's like you have a guy
completely back lit, so there's no light
on his face, but yet his glasses are
glowing white. So we'd put fluorescent
tape in there, hit that with a light,
then we could turn it white later. The
black and white really helps. And then
just upping the contrast. But I mean,
it's just something that you have a
feeling for, but you're able to try it.
In fact, when I took it to George Lucas,
who George Lucas said this to me early
on because I was we're the only guys
shooting digital. He said, "Man, it's so
good you live in Austin. That's why I'm
in Marin County." Cuz when you live
outside of this box of LA, Hollywood,
you think outside of the box
automatically. You're just going to
stumble upon innovations. And he was
right. It was like, "Yeah, we're why why
aren't we shooting digital? Let's shoot
digital. Why aren't we shooting digital
3D? Let's do that. Why don't we just use
green screen for the background? You
just start innovating because you're
away from anyone saying, "Hey, you can't
do it that way." Which they would say if
I was in LA. So, we just came up with a
whole other method. So, I took him to
Sin City to check out the first thing I
was going to show at Comic-Con. He said,
"Um, now this will really show people
what digital is capable of. This really
shows how on guard you can get with that
that you could never have done that on
film, you know, and so by me versing
myself in that technology early, I was
able to make a movie like that and then
everyone had to play catchup, you know.
So you should always just follow your
That's why if people say don't use those
curtains, that's not going to work. Just
blow past those guys. go innovate your
own thing
because sometimes not knowing is better.
You know, being too naive to like,
"Don't you know you shouldn't have been
able to make that movie that way?"
People would people would say like that
all the time. How did you make marriage
for $7,000? Just, you know, it's
impossible. It's like, why do you keep
using that word? Because it can't be
impossible if I did it because I'm not
that smart. And it's like saying, "How
did you get to the top of Mount Everest?
It's impossible." Well, I just kept
walking. I I didn't realize it was kind
of had a slope. I didn't really realize
it was going up that high. Yeah. You you
you've talked about like a big part of
your approach to film making to life is
manifesting. Manifesting the reality you
want. In fact, I should sort of comment
and I would love to ask you about
manifesting,
but you asked me at the beginning of
this conversation, do you consider
yourself a creative person? I should I
should sort of reflect on that because I
was very uncomfortable answering that.
Yeah, I noticed a little bit and I was
like, I'm going to I'm going to free you
up so that you're never uncomfortable
again. It's scary to to say that about
about yourself to think there's a lot of
there's a lot of people that go, "Well,
you're not an artist. You're not a
creative." But no, you're not saying I'm
an artist. I'm saying I'm a creative
person. But that's an artist, too, isn't
it? Artist isn't necessarily a guy with
a the French mustache and the funny hat.
That's not necessarily what an art
artists are regular people. Yeah. And
regular people relate to art that's
imperfect. If you can make art that's
perfect, no one will relate to it. So,
when you think about it like that, you
go, "Well, I can make imperfect art."
So, yeah, I am an artist. And if you
have doubt, you're an artist. That's an
artist. Artist. Real artists always
wonder if they're good enough. So, you
are an artist just by the fact that you
have uncomfortable saying it. You're a
real artist. Yeah. And there's some
degree, I don't know if you could speak
to this, but um you know, there's a fear
of creating shitty things. You know,
I've I've created a lot of really shitty
things in my life. And it always feels
like that's really important to do.
Okay. You're judging something that that
you have no business judging, right?
Like I have so many people, that's why I
like making movies on purpose that have
less money and less time on purpose.
Like the biggest movie I said all time
on Netflix is we can be heroes. I told
them I don't want to spend more than $50
million. I know you all want to give me
80, but I want to be a hero and come in
50 because one, it'll make it better and
then two, you you'll make three of them
instead of just one. I don't want to
just go spend the farm. And not many
filmmakers that do that. they'll try to
get as much money as they can. But when
you're spending less, it's a win-win
situation and you have more creative
freedom because they're going to leave
you alone. You can do whatever you want.
So, I I like the creative limitations
that come from less money. That's why I
like Brass Knuckle Films. Like, we're
going to make them for less so that they
are better, not because they're not to
make them shitty. So many people have
come up to me and said, "Um, you know
what part I love in your movie?" And
they'll tell me some scene. And I'm
like, "Oh, well that's cuz we ran out of
sun and we had to like do that jump with
just him jumping on a pad three times or
whatever it is." It's something that you
fumbled together. And that's what
they're drawn to. They're drawn to that
imperfect thing. And so I wouldn't judge
it because
somebody's, you know, if you called your
movie shitty, that's like John Carpenter
saying, "Yeah, nobody liked The Thing
and it's a shitty movie and everyone
hated it, so it must not be good." Then
10 years later, it's a masterpiece. So
don't judge it because if you words we
use on ourselves are very powerful. So
if you say well you know I'm kind of an
artist sometimes and I make a lot of
shitty stuff. Well that's going to
that's going to be your lot in life. You
know I I'm I'm pretty good shape for a
director. It's not cuz I'm operating the
camera because I work out, right? But I
always hated working out. I was not into
sports. I was a filmmaker. I was a
cartoonist in high school. I was really
tall. They would say, "Come work. Come
be in our team. We need It's a small
school. We need you." I'm like, "I don't
know how to play any of these things.
I'm an artist." There's a line in the
faculty that's was my line to my coaches
when they would say, "You got to come
run with everybody." I would say, "I
don't think a person should run unless
he's being chased." I gave that to the
to to the Elijah Wood character because
that's the guy I identified with. He's
there with his camera. And that was me.
So, I hated it. And then because I had I
was a cartoonist, you know, drawing like
this for hours, four hours. My back
would go out like out for a month. It
would just go out from being so tall and
crunched over. And then when I started
making movies, operating the camera,
doing steady cam, every year would go
out to where I would need cortisone
shots to get up again if I'm filming or
just be out for a month. And on Spy Kids
2, Ricardo Montban had bad back surgery
that that went wrong and he was in a
wheelchair. So he's in a wheelchair and
I'm in a walker and he's like, I'm 84.
What's your excuse? And I was like, I I
don't know. I just was operating steady.
He goes, "You have to work out, Robert.
You have to work out." I was like,
"Okay, yeah, I know. I know." And so
then I thought, "Okay, next year I'm
working with Stallone." I asked
Stallone. I asked Stallone, "How do you
get in shape? Cuz I need to get in
shape. My back's always going out." He
goes, "Get the trainer." Anyone who we
ever saw in Hollywood got in shape. They
had a trainer. I say, "Even you?
Anybody? Oh, I need a trainer. He has a
trainer." Oh, no. I need a trainer. I
can't train. It's like, "Well, shit. If
you can't even train on your own, then
what what do us mortal men have?" So, I
got a trainer and guess what happened?
Hated it. I would feel sick when he's
coming over because I hate sport. I hate
working out. And then um some years of
doing that, I just I can't stand it. But
I know it's good for my health. So, the
desire is there. So, if you can't
accomplish something in your life, it's
not a lack of desire. Like, if you want
to be more creative, it's not a lack of
desire. It's a lack of identity. Like
you're like the fact that you went you
were comfortable about saying creative.
It's because there's a lack of identity
there. You have lots of desire.
You got to get the identity up and then
suddenly you're you're making you're
making shit. So I a friend of mine from
Mexico, she comes over. I have to stop
smoking. My doctor said I have to stop
smoking for my health. So I have so I'm
not smoking right now. So I've been
smoking since I was 8 years old. He said
well you're going to go back to smoking
cuz you just told me your identity is a
smoker. So right now you're a smoker
who's not smoking. What's going to
happen eventually? You're going to think
you have to say I'm a non-smoker. You
know like just that that lesson I had
forgotten. You have to say, "I'm a
non-smoker." I'm a non-smoker. So, what
does a non-smoker do? If you believe
you're a non-smoker, you hate smoke.
Start choking at the smell of smoke.
Okay, I'll try that. She walks off. I
go, "Shit, I forgot about my own. I
wonder where in my life I could apply
that working out. Of course, my god, I
hate working out. No wonder I am so
miserable. I'll tell my trainer and
anyone who will listen. I can't stand
working out. I don't understand sports."
So, that day I said, "I'm an athlete.
I'm an athlete." Yeah, that's the last
thing I would ever call myself all
through my entire life. This was 2012.
I'm an athlete. By the next day, not
only did my life completely change and
it's easier if it's opposite day. Like
if you're just doing it by degrees,
that's bullshit. You got to go complete
opposite because if there's like a
donut, you know, if you say, "Well, I'm
going to only eat a half of it." You got
to go, "No, I'm going to get an apple."
Opposite day is much easier. Not only
did I change my life working out, I
never needed a trainer. I have not had a
trainer since all those years because
I'm an athlete. I'll just do it. What
does an athlete do? An athlete loves
working out. An athlete will make time
to work out and they'll eat right. I was
ne I would never be the person that
would call themselves an athlete. But
that's how much it can change your life
by changing your identity. So if you
want to be more creative, you you've
already got that in your that desire.
You've got enough of that. You don't
need more desire. You need more
identity. So you got to say I'm a
creative person with a straight face.
With a straight face. So when I say,
"Hey, are you going to be are you a
creative person?" You go, "Yeah." Cuz
then if you say that, what do you do?
You're going to do more creative stuff
cuz that's what a creative person does.
It doesn't make sense to me how
manifesting works, but it does seem to
work. Like basically
visualizing visualizing a path towards a
certain kind of future. It I guess
everything around you, everything within
you kind of makes way for that. Makes
way for the possibility of that. It's
weird. It's weird, but it it it kind of
it's a kind of a nice to know that you
can do that. But you have to just have
that conviction and just say start with
a label. Yeah. The R the double R or the
label you just gave yourself. Like I
changed my label. My label was I hate
working out. I'm an athlete. I I'm an
athlete. I'm not a non-athlete anymore.
I'm changing my label. And you get so
inspired because now you know what to do
because you can't help but conform to
your identity. You're always going to
conform to your identity. So just change
your identity and you'll change your
life. But and it's not that hard. I
didn't have to go get hypnotized or
anything. It was literally I just told
myself if I could do that, go from a guy
who doesn't want to work out, hates it,
hates it. I had the desire. I was
already hiring the guy. I lacked the
identity. As soon as I changed my
identity, boom. Well, one of the things
for me like that is probably music. Just
playing guitar. Are you a musician?
Yeah, music. Look at you. You paused.
Uh, I would definitely not. I mean, I'm
I'm going along with it now, but if
we're honestly if we're just in that I
wouldn't have said, but I heard you rip
on fucking guitar. And I've heard you
play kind of amazing in all different
kind of context. Oh, but I I should be
like freaking Santana by now cuz I've
had a guitar in my hand since I was a
kid. But since I'm not a full-time
musician, I don't get to play it that
often. So, I'm not as good as I should
be. But, you know, when you apply
yourself to just rehearse for, you know,
a couple shows, you book some shows.
Look at this. This was me just like
playing our first arena show opening for
George Lopez. That was crazy to be on
the stages where your heroes that you
saw them and now you're seeing what
their point of view was. It blows your
mind. You need to just get on stage. You
get on stage once and you'll see that
it's not as bad as you think. You're not
you're not like terrified cuz you're
playing pretty complicated things. I've
seen you play live. Yeah. And I mess up
a bunch of times, but you don't want to
focus on that. You just go like, "Okay,
I got it through it." Cuz when you're up
there, it's not that you're like
screaming nervous, but your hands will
just won't work anymore. Something will
happen. But that happens to everybody.
If you really watch even the best in
their live performances, watch really
close and you see they screw up a couple
things, but you just won't know. They
just go right through it. It's like it's
about the live performance and that's
how you know it's real. So, I think if
you could really
just lean into it more, change, really
work on the identity part because you've
got the desire. You want to play guitar,
but as soon as you say, "Yeah, but I
can't play live." You just chopped off
your leg at the start of the race. You
say, "I I don't know." You just chopped
off your You're doing this to yourself.
You're literally doing this to yourself.
I'm not mean just you. I mean, anybody
who just like who who pauses, who
hesitates. You don't have to have
doubts. Why would you have a doubt?
Because you know the process now. It's
like if I don't know how to do
something, I know how to figure it out.
Like I I didn't know how I was going to
do that scene with him jumping and
flipping. I didn't know that. But do I
have doubt that I'm going to go in there
and be able to do it? If you if you say
that you do you now you're a doubtful
person. That's how powerful that is. But
if you say no, I don't have any doubt
cuz I know I'm going to figure it out
when I get there somehow. It'll fall in
my lap. I trust the process. You don't
have to you don't have to know. So if
you trust the process that you'll figure
it out. But here's the thing like
sometimes you fail and there's audience.
Yeah. Then you get four rooms. Yeah.
Yeah. And then what And then what
happens? Right. Don't blink. It's don't
blink and then you go sift through the
failure. Yeah. Exactly. And you go,
"Wait a minute. What did I get out of
that?" Yeah. I've done that a bunch.
Look what what's the worst that can
happen? You go on a stage and you bomb.
It's not going to be the first stage.
And it's one of those you can talk about
so that when you do the next one and it
all sometimes they all go right. I've
had a couple shows. We did we did a
couple shows where we had video cameras
set up for the second day. I said let's
not film the first day cuz we're going
to be freaking just finding our feet.
Let's film the second day. First day was
fucking flawless. Flawless. Cuz no
cameras. It's like you just go. Second
day we're we weren't as into it because
we had just done it. It felt like the
second take, you know? It just didn't
have the magic. And that's the one
that's recorded. And we're like, "Oh,
kicking ourselves. We didn't film both
nights. We should have filmed both
nights." I love how much of a mess this
human existence life is. Yeah. Uh you've
talked about the importance of
journaling because living is living. I
love that phrase. I came up with that
cuz it's like, "Wow, I see so many
people who get after you for like
filming a concert and they go live in
the moment." I'm like, "Dude,
counterintuitive. The moment goes by
like this. Yeah, we're we're not going
to remember any of this. Fact that we
taped it. Thank god. Because later on
it's going to be a file photo of me
remembering you three pound me computer.
All I'm going to have is a file photo of
you maybe in a suit and you picturing me
and maybe a black t-shirt and the
metadata narrative is going to say had a
great talk about if we remember
creativity. You know, like their brain
doesn't remember. But when I pull up old
home movies I can show my kids that I
just found and they're like they don't
remember it. I don't remember filming it
and it's like new adventures of it
becomes iconic and it sticks in our head
and all our jokes are based on old
things that we used to do and say. So
rel living is reliving. So keeping a
journal is very important because I
found that anything past 15 years I it's
like I'm reading someone else's journal.
I'm like I didn't even know that's where
I got that guitar. I thought I bought
that guitar. It was given to me. It's
like a $10,000 Santana. It was given to
me my birthday by the studio that I made
that movie. How can I not remember that?
It's like crazy what you don't remember.
And it's the brain is very it's not a
it's not a very, you know, reliable
computer. It's it's made out of freaking
butter. That's a really profound idea
that so much of our life is lived
through replaying our memories and then
watching stuff is one of the ways to
sort of refresh, give some more, you
know, texture and details. Makes it
iconic. It makes it iconic in your life
and part of your life. Otherwise, it
just went by. It went by. Like I'll ask
people like, "We just had a really, what
did we do last week? What did we do last
Wednesday?" And they're like,
"I can tell you because I wrote it down,
but I got to remember." And and then
when you see when you go through your
journal, like I go back and I find, wow,
lifechanging thing happened Friday.
Another life-changing thing I didn't
know at the time till now I know that
that really set me on happened Saturday.
and another big freaking thing happened
on Sunday. Like they come in threes
sometime. You start being able to
predict the future a little bit because
you you see the patterns and it's pretty
wild to to do that. And I I've I swear
I've talked to people big group of
people, 500 people. How many people here
journal? Mhm.
Two hands, three hands. I couldn't
believe it. It's like, man, you guys, if
there's anything I can impart on you is
journal. your life is way more
interested than you think because it's
not going to feel like anything while
it's going by. But in retrospect, you
look back like I can just go through I
keep a
journal one file per year. So I started
a new one in 2025. If I'm going to look
up like I'm going to do a director's
chair episode. I look up Michael Man.
Michael man all the conversations we had
since 94 that I wrote down that I felt
and it's like oh my god I can't believe
we said that. That's how I knew about
that thing with Quinton. And I had
forgotten about that story with Quinton
saying, "Ah, Pulp Fiction." I had
forgotten that
because from the moment I asked him that
question to the success at can was very
quick. So it was a lost moment in time
where I had it recorded down to the time
down to the hour when I asked him that
question and he thought it wasn't he he
didn't think that was the one for him.
Yeah. And there's a I don't know when it
when it's private journaling there's an
honesty, there's an innocence that about
like the dreams you have about the
future, the conceptions you have about
the future. I mean that's what this
thing is journal is a journal. It's just
a journal and it's like but the
profoundity like comes back and it's
crazy. Yeah. You didn't and so much I
figured out then I was I'm talking like
a professor by the end of that. Like I
people come up to me and they're asking
me all these questions about stuff I
wrote in there and I'm like I wrote that
in that book. Shit, I was smart back
then. What happened? I don't remember
half of that. But I think that it's the
same thing when you go to teach
someone your mouth opens and stuff comes
out. I I'm always taping myself like
when I go to give a talk cuz that's also
the pipe working. Someone else is
talking through you sometimes. So the
act of sharing that's why I've always
liked to share information cuz the
feedback loop is insane. like me
inspiring Dji DJ to go right he writes
the script in three days comes back
tells me now I'm doing that method and
it's like wow people come back with
their version and I love telling my
kids stuff that I learned that I wish I
could tell
myself but I can't take a time machine
closest thing is telling your kid
because then they can take that
information and process so many times
they've come back and said wow dad that
lesson you taught us about this is
really it's really become big in our
minds yeah what was that and they tell
me and I'm like I never told you that
they said, "Yeah, you told us. Well, I
told you maybe 10% of that. All the rest
you added." Oh, yeah. Well, we
embellished it over like they turned it
into something else. And it's like,
"Wow, that's so cool." But yeah, that
thing
about reliving like that was a one of my
favorite ones just Yeah. my mom turning
75 and not wanting to do anything for
her 75th birthday. I said, "Why not?"
She goes, "The whole family's going to
You have 10 kids. They're all going to
want to do something for your 75th
birthday. Nothing can top my 65th." I
was like, "What are we doing on your
65th?" I didn't even remember even. I'm
the one who orchestrated it all. She
goes, "Oh, you flew everyone in from all
over the country. You gave me a
car. I got to have a journal of that.
So, I'm sure I have video." I go back 10
years. I see what tape I had it on. Find
the tape. Pop the tape in. Forgot about
all this stuff. So, I cut together a
10-minute version of it. Showed it at
her 75th birthday. Just watching the old
one. Everybody was like, "Oh my god,
look how young everybody was. Look how
small the nieces and nephew were." She
starts balling as soon as she gets the
key, the gift of the key in the video
because she realizes now what it's going
to mean that she's going to get this
car. And so it's like, "Wow, let's just
play the old tapes. We don't even have
to do anything anymore. We banked so
much amazing stuff that we've all
forgotten that, you know, my kids just
love watching their old home movies.
They they hardly remember any of it.
But even a VHS to them is virtual
reality cuz compared to our memories, it
is virtual reality. They're like leaning
into the screen to see what's around the
corner and they're remembering the place
and the sounds and they say, "Oh, we
left the we left the living room." It's
like we're there. It's like, "Wow." Oh,
I was always afraid they would see this
old footage and go, "Ah, this is that
dog shit." Kind of camera was that the
limitations of, you know, you put up one
of those files on your screen, it's like
this big on your laptop now. That's how
low res shit was back then. But that
didn't matter. It's like compared to our
memories, that stuff. Living is
reliving. Like, pull up that, shoot as
much as you can, take as many pictures,
but write the journal because you'll
have a picture. Swear you're not going
to know what it's from. Even 10 years
from now, you won't know what that
picture's from. You read the diary, you
go, "Oh, that's what that is. Oh my god,
you can piece together all these things
that are important to you or that become
more important with time actually and uh
you know what's important later compared
to what's then happening at the time. To
add on top of that, so journaling is a
kind of raw or like home films is a raw
projection of what's going on in the
moment. I think it's also really
powerful because I've I've done that is
to do a higheffort description of where
your life is for your just for yourself.
So sometimes journaling is like low
effort. Yeah. Sometimes it's just I just
want to mark that you know we had this
conversation I had to go do something at
five I did that met somebody that I know
last night I met somebody that's going
to be life-changing I'm going to write a
little bit more on that cuz I could just
now I know but I I'm going to just
record it so later if I look it up. So
one of the cool things you could do is
you know like for example somebody um uh
Jimmy Mr. Beast does does these videos
which are great. I think I think it's a
great exercise to do for yourself, which
is a video he records
uh for himself that he doesn't look at
to be published 20 years from now. This
is a message to myself 20 years from
now. Here's where I hope you end up.
You're you're basically a younger
version of yourself speaking to an older
version. And then you get, you know,
time flies and like you get to a point
where it's like, holy shit, it has been
10 years, has been 20 years. You had to
listen to a younger version of yourself.
like you it would have been hilarious if
you shot videos like that to yourself
because of just like the incredible
journey your career has been on. And
just to think about that like the delta
the difference between what your dreams
were and where you ended up. Usually you
outdo yourself in many ways. Sometimes
you your life goes in a totally
different trajectory. It's
um and the result is kind of funny and
it's a it's it's a
nice it's a nice illustration of the
nonlinearity of life. I I would film
stuff like that with my kids. I couldn't
do it by I would film my kid saying,
"Hey, turn to the camera now and say,
"Hey, Rebel, it's me, Rebel. Fucking
rebel in the future." Yeah. So, you have
shots like that. Yeah. And then they
show them like cool like that 10 years
later and they they're like, "Whoa." To
see it talking to them and saying,
"Yeah." And um I would do this thing
where I would film them watching it and
then pan off so that 10 years later I
could get hey rebel him reacting pan off
to the new rebel watching it. It's just
like keeps go. So I have one like that
where it just keeps panning and they're
watching themselves within the movie.
Within the movie within the movie it's
like an ongoing project, you know? It's
just so fun to just play with memory and
make you realize how fast time moves and
to go they go like I kind of remember
that but I don't remember being that
tiny I had that memory. It's like wild
how time moves and it makes them feel
much more precious about how quick time
moves and and how important every little
moment is because you see the fragility
of it too, you know. Does it make you
sad? Does it break your heart that you
know the number of memories we get to
create is finite? That this life ends.
Eventually the story is
over. I had this theory. I'm going to
put this in a movie. I don't think I've
ever seen this before cuz I was woke up
from a dream and it was like trying to
remember it. You know, you're like,
"God, it was so so real." But the if you
don't write it down right away, right,
it kind of fades away. But you while
you're dreaming it, it's really real.
It's like almost see the
walls. By the time I went to go tell
somebody, it's like shit, I forgot most
of it. But I wonder if that's what it's
like when you wake up in your
consciousness after you die. You wake up
in your next consciousness getting ready
to move into whatever your next body is.
And you're like, "Wow, I was a
filmmaker, had five
kids, and oh well, I'm going to go be a
fish now." It's like, it's like a dream.
It's like that gone that way. And it's
like that's what past lives are. They're
like distant memories like a dream
that's faded away. That's why you barely
feel remnants of it. Do I feel sad about
they when I tell people they flip out
when I tell them that? Yeah. Like I
said, I want a character to be like
that. Like he's dying. He's like, I
don't want to forget this dream. I don't
want to forget. Don't let me wake up.
Don't let me wake up. But you forget.
Especially the moment you try to tell
somebody until the next fish. Yeah. The
next be a fish next. But uh uh Yeah.
Yeah. Like it feels like I'm a little
sad about it, but then it just makes you
even more double down to be precious
about the life you're in now. What do
you think? And record it. Record it.
What do you think is the meaning of this
whole thing of life? Why are we
here? I don't know why. I mean, I really
feel like uh my kids and I were just
talking about this last night. We were
just blown away. We did this Asterian
astrology thing, which the oldest form
of astrology. just nails each
person. And it's like, yeah, because
when you have a kid, you realize right
away, this isn't my kid. This is not my
I'm just in charge of him. It's a
completely different soul. He's a
different soul that ended up in my
hands. It's not There's physical
characteristics that get passed on
because of just how biology works. Even
sometimes posture and movement is the
same, but the actual person is somebody
else. And all the kids, I have five kids
and I had nine brothers and sisters.
They're all different. And you realize
we made a pact in a past life to gather
together because every time it's like so
good you were born in this family
because you were given free reign to go
find who you're really supposed to be
and you and you find out everyone is
doing what they were supposed to be
doing. But what's cool almost like this
clarity you get by just saying it. They
now know that they were always supposed
to be like this creative person or and
now they can double down on it because
they know that's who they were supposed
to be. They don't have to have any doubt
anymore. They don't have to wonder,
well, am I supposed to be more
business-minded or can I be creative?
Isn't that some kind of frivolous? Is
that a real job? Can I do that? Um, now
they realize, no, you're supposed to be
doing that for these these these these
reasons. And now they can double down.
You can skip all that and just decide, I
feel like I want to be that person, so
I'm just going to declare I am that
person. And as soon as you say it, you
are that and tomorrow your your
activities will conform to that. That's
how powerful that decision is. So when
you walk out of here, it's going to be
with a complete commitment. I'm a
technical and creative person like my
first boss. I'm
unstoppable because my boss told me that
and he was right. I became technical and
creative and you're just unstoppable.
You can just keep going and just go I'm
unstoppable. doesn't mean you're going
to, you know, use your powers for bad,
but you've just changed your life by
just declaring that. And I'm also a
creative person who lives his life
creatively. I'm going to find creative
ways to use that
technology. If somebody says you're not
the same kind of artist I was expect,
that's their own opinion. Don't blink.
Just keep going. You know, all these
things that you've learned that people
were supposed to tell you along the way,
they're telling you for a reason.
Anytime you got pushed, like if you go
back to your life at your really
critical moments in your life where you
went that way instead of that way, there
was probably somebody there who said
something to you that kind of pushed
you. I there was a there was one guy
when I was in high school. It was like
senior year, I wrote a paper and I
wasn't a great writer at all. I wrote a
paper for a Latin American studies
class, gave it to the teacher, and uh he
said, "Wow,
you you're going to be rich and famous
in four years just based on what I
read." He was like, "Really?" Flight
home like 17 or 18. Four years later,
Den Mariachi and I went to him later at
a reunion and I said, "You called it.
You said I was going to be Why did you
say that?" And he's like, "I said that?
I never It looked like he would never
say that to somebody. You'd think he
would own it and say, "Oh yeah, I knew
and I told you." No, he was like, he
looked like he even know who I was. He
was like asking acting like he never
would have said that in a million years.
So again, sometimes things come out of
our mouth that's not us. It comes
through us. So if you think of it that
way, why are we here? We're here for a
reason. We're going to get nudged along.
Listen to the signs. Own who you're
supposed to be because you're you are
that person. Don't let your human doubt
get in the way. That's like the guy
closing the pipe. H I don't know if I'm
really creative. I don't know if I'm
really a businessman.
and you're just closing the pipe. You're
not going to let it flow. Just be a good
pipe. Just say, "I just want to be a I
just want to be a good pipe." Clean,
open. And then that's when the magic
happens. And no matter what, don't
blink. Don't blink. No matter how many
That dude was getting so much shit
thrown at him. I wish you knew that time
period cuz then you would you would go
like, "Yeah, that's right. It was
unbelievable. I can't even convey." And
there was no internet and stuff back
then. This was like literal press
reviews public. It was like why are they
targeting this guy, you know? They just
did not like he just had unprecedented
success and was a really great guy and
was making amazing shit. So, it was a
the triple threat of make people
jealous, you know, pissed off. Well,
he's one of the great artists of all
time. So are you. It's a huge honor to
talk to you. Thank you for everything
you're doing in the world, for creating
in the world, and for inspiring millions
of people to also be creators in the
world, and for your new project that's
bringing people in. Robert, I'm as I
told you, I'm a huge fan. Huge honor to
talk to you, brother. So great talking
with you. Great questions. You going to
change your life. Thank you, brother.
Million dollars. Yeah. Right there.
Thank you for listening to this
conversation with Robert Rodriguez. To
support this podcast, please check out
our sponsors in the description. And now
let me leave you with some words from
Alfred
Hitchcock. In feature films, the
director is God. In documentary films,
God is the
director. Thank you for listening and
hope to see you next time.