Kind: captions
Language: en
The following is a conversation with
Oliver Anthony, singer songwriter from
Virginia, who first gained worldwide
fame with his viral hit Rich Men North
of Richmond. He became a voice for many
who are voiceless with his songs
speaking to the struggle of the working
class in modern American life. His legal
name is Christopher Anthony Lansford.
Oliver Anthony was his grandfather's
name. And so Chris used this name as a
dedication to his grandfather and to
1930s Appalachia where his grandfather
was born and raised. Dirt floors, seven
kids, hard times. As Chris says, he's
happy to be called either one, by the
way. I've gotten to know Chris more
since the recording of this
conversation. He truly is, as he appears
online and in his songs, down to earth,
humble, and a good man who deeply feels
the pain of the
downtrodden. This is a Lex Freedman
podcast. To support it, please check out
our sponsors in the description. And
now, dear friends, here's Christopher
Lford, or as many of you know him as
Oliver Anthony.
So, I was texting you uh last night uh
sitting at an open mic listening to a
guy perform Great Balls of Fire. Uh like
I told you, he was giving everything he
got for like five people in the audience
plus me. Well, you were there. I'd been
I'd have been doing it, too, if you were
out there like, "Oh, that's Lex
Freeman." No, man. He was uh this big
dude on a keyboard just everything.
Sweaty, long hair. You could tell like
he was there in his own little world. I
love the courage of that of just giving
it everything. I don't think he wants to
be famous. I don't think he wants
anything in life except to be there and
to play like his heart out. That's why I
love open mics. Like some people still
aspire to be famous when they play open
mics, but some people maybe they've
given up or maybe they never wanted to
be famous. They're just there for the
pure artistry of it. So yeah. And you
said you started out playing open mics.
What at Shady Bars? What was that like?
Well, yeah. Real quick before I forget
to a great example of a of a guy who had
that same mindset and was able to
maintain it really well is this mandolin
player named Johnny Stats in West
Virginia. to me he's one of the best and
he's won all these awards and stuff and
he still works for UPS full-time and
like he could go out and tour with play
man for anybody he wanted to but he but
man when you meet Johnny like you can
tell he's just got this um this joy in
him that I don't think he would have if
he but as far as me with the open mics
um yeah it was just it was a lot of them
were really a lot of them were
embarrassing there was couple I remember
there was times where I'd go up and try
to do I do like one song I get like
halfway through the next song and I'd be
so nervous by that point. I didn't I
couldn't remember any of the words. And
there's a couple times I I remember
there was one time in particular that I
just I just walked off halfway through
the song, put my guitar in the case and
just I just left. I didn't even like
couldn't even stay in there. Just total,
you know, just total freak out. Just
embarrassment. And I never drank in bars
either. Like I'm not a I wasn't really a
social drinker. So I was just there to
try to do the mic. So it was it was kind
of I was a little out of place anyway. I
feel kind of out of place in a bar to
start with. So yeah, this back when you
could smoke in bars. There's a whole
vibe to it. People smoking, drinking and
Yeah, definitely. You know, bombing in a
place like that when the
audience there's like five people and
they're bored. Yeah, there was one like
that. It was in Moka. It wasn't that far
from where I lived. The place is gone
now, but uh it was about as big as the
room we're in here, if that. You know,
like the the ceiling tiles were yellow
from where everybody had smoked in it
since the beginning of time. And but
like Yeah, that was my little spot.
Those little type of spots. You did
covers. What' you play? What was your
go-to back then? It was like uh I don't
know, Fishing in the Dark, Nitty-Gritty
Band or like
um any of those old Hank like Hank Jr.
songs like any of those bar type um
David Allen Co like You Never Call Me By
My Name, any of that kind of stuff. And
I haven't even played any of those in
forever now. But that was any of those
ones where you get people singing along
and stuff. That's what I'd always try to
do, you know. Yeah. That song you
performed, Take Me Home, uh, Country
Road, How's That Go, West Virginia.
Yeah, it's a good song. John Denver was
just uh, one of those guys that it's who
knows where he would have went long term
if he wouldn't have passed, but you know
what's a fun song that I love? I
shouldn't, but I love is uh, what is it
like? Thank God I'm a country boy.
I think that's what I liked about John
Denver was he was a little bit like he
let himself be a little bit corny in the
spirit of like having fun with it. Like
um great example, there's this old older
guy that not a lot of people have heard
of named Roy Clark, but um my farm is
like a mile down the road from Roy
Clark's old farm, but he he used to be
on Hehaw. I don't know if you ever heard
of that old show from like the 60s or
whatever, but crazy dude. He could pick
any instrument up. Like there's videos
on YouTube of him, but he would just sit
there and just pick anything up and just
rip it to death. But he would always
just be real silly about it. He never
had he never took it too never took
himself too seriously. You know, some
people go to the fun place. Some people
go to the dark place. Yeah. It's a you
know, country can do both. You you more
often go to the dark place to to the to
the pain. Yeah. Well, especially some of
the new songs that are coming out that
they'll be probably not I mean, I don't
know what they'll be. I don't know what
is country anymore anyway. I don't know
that many people who listen to the type
of music that I grew up listening to
probably listen to country radio anymore
anyway. Like I think there's there's
quite a lot of people who don't who sort
of disowned that space. You know, in
commercialized country, you only really
get what sells, which and a lot of what
sells isn't necessarily what matters.
Well, you had that whole experience
where they take what you recorded and
polish it, quote unquote, try to make it
perfect and in so doing destroy the soul
of the thing. And so probably that
happens with these big artists. They're
so famous. It's like a machine. And so
what the machine does is it overpolishes
things. And so the
raw like power of the person, the
uniqueness of the person, the soul of
the person is gone if you do that. Yeah.
Well, prof I think professionalism in
like applying the tactic the tactics of
corporate America to anything that is
yeah baseline artistic is not going to
end well. They're all individually
brilliant but together this corporate
speak comes out. Yeah. Just the soul of
the people dissipates. It like
disappears. Why are you all pretending
that like life is not terrible and
beautiful and like you're both scared
shitless and excited and this guy's
going through a divorce. This person
just fell in love. Like you're getting
the intensity of life with this
corporate like 9 to5. Like hi John, it's
great to see you
today. Oh, you too. you as well. You as
well. But when I look at it, I'm like,
why am I whining? I I feel like a
Bukovski type character because like
they're all really nice. They're all
good people, but like something is gone
when you have this corporate machine.
Well, they're they're there to fill a
role contractually. And if they I think
if they bring too many of their human
elements into that, then they jeopardize
losing their sense of security. And it's
all just out of fear. It's out of fear
of losing your job. I mean, it's the
reason why all the songs say Oliver
Anthony and not Christopher Lunford on
them, you know, like it's fear of it's
so difficult to especially now it seems
and I mean, who knows? I didn't I was
never around in the 40s or 50s to work a
job. I'm sure they were probably pretty
miserable back then, but you know, they
talk about now like how difficult it is
like the the impossibility of having a
single family household or anything
else, but like when you find a decent
paying job that you can do without it
just torturing you every day, that's
that's a pretty important thing now, you
know, like and so it it's pretty easy to
just it's pretty easy to kind of turn
yourself into a robot for eight or 10
hours a day out of fear of it's like you
don't want to be yourself too much
because maybe part of yourself isn't
something that's accepted in this like
dystopian nightmare that you go to work
at every day. And so you just got to do
your best to just not step on any toes
or do anything that that makes you stand
out too much, you know? And now it's
like now like when you scroll through
some of these videos of people like the
big even when I was still like when I
was still working my lame job it was
like there was this whole big thing of
people talking about quiet quitting or
something like that where they were just
going to go to work but not really do
anything. But that hurts me so much.
That hurts me when you just stop when
you're there but you're not really
there. That makes me so sad. Yeah. So
then they wonder these companies just
slowly kind of fall apart and
disintegrate because they're so worried
about structure and you know like I mean
god man even in even in America today
our culture has become because so many
big corporations own and manage
everything that we live under like food,
agriculture, healthcare, like social
media it's all in corporate structures
that it's almost like a lot of the
problems we find ourselves in now with
society I think are like it's just
because of it's almost like h corporate
HR has been implemented into our whole
thought process of everything. You know,
it's like um I think that's kind of what
you're touching on though. It's
like it's it's hard to be it's hard to
be a human and be a good little
corporate employee at the same time. Um
and as our whole society moves more into
like becoming a like basically one big
corporation, it's like you don't want to
piss the HR lady off. So, it's a lot
easier for me to just beep boop. We're
all sort of just turn we're all turning
into robots. you know, and that's I've
talked to to great engineers about this.
Jim Keller is a legendary engineer. Elon
Elon Musk is another example that you
need that I don't know what's a nice
term for it, but you need the asshole
because you you want to get to the
ground truth of things to the first
principle of things like how do we
simplify? How do we make it more
efficient? How do we move faster? How do
we get shit done? And that has no place
for this kind polite speak. And then,
you know, other great team members swoop
in and like repair the damage that the
tornado has done. Do you think that's
cuz I'm not I'm not super wellversed
about all this, so I'm probably dumb to
even mention it, but um this guy who's
been helping me with doing a
documentary, uh he's been following me
around since the very first show at the
August of 23. He his background was
doing um promotional videos for Boeing
like for on their new spacecraft to
pitch it to
whoever. And so he was we touched we
touched base a little bit on Boeing and
of course they're having a lot of
problems now it sounds like and he was
comparing that with
SpaceX or with you know like that that I
I think it's that exactly what we
touched on with that thought process of
that sort of dehumanization within
companies. I think that's what
ultimately causes maybe I don't know if
there's a connection there or not but it
seems like Boeing is a very would be
more of that they don't have that
tornado they're very like h like he was
telling me even just with his protocols
and some of the people he worked with
like everything's just very you know
lightly touch everything no one you
don't touch anything too hard so it's
not just HR it's also it's just this
managerial class where it's like Bob
from this department has to schedule a
meeting with John from this department
and Debbie
like they have to have a meeting 2 and
1/2 weeks from now and then there's
paperwork and then that bureaucracy
that's created in the managerial class
just slows everything down. And one of
the things that slowing everything down
does is it really demotivates the people
that are actually doing the shit. Like
the people on the ground, the engineers
that are building stuff. It's again
soul-drenching to like be excited, show
up, and now you hit this wall of
paperwork like you can't you have to
wait for John and Debbie and I forgot
the third guy's name kind of imagined in
my head uh to have a meeting. It just
and then you kind of slow down and you
disappear in terms of that fire, that
passion that's required to create big
things. So yeah, because they don't
believe there's a lack of leadership and
if they don't believe in if they don't
believe in that leadership then why the
hell would they be motivated? I mean I
remember
um a while back watching Jaco Wilnick
talk about a um talk about that when he
was in leadership when he was leading
his guys. I think he mentions it in his
book is probably where I remember seeing
it. Um, one of his books and he talks
about like how important it was for the
people under him in rank to believe in
what he was the actions he was giving
them even if he necessarily didn't agree
with them himself. It was like there
it's really hard to take orders and go
and like to to have human spirit and
especially in something that's
innovative and not if you if you're
working for a company where you just
think everybody's dumb. I mean, I can
certainly relate with that. I mean, God,
that's all and in my old job, that's all
we did was we spent half our day just
talking about how how dumb we thought
everybody was that was above us, you
know? It's like it's easy to fall into
that in the corporate world. And so,
yeah, the morale gets terrible and and
and everyone suffers as a result of it,
you know, like the the people at the top
who are implementing all that
dysfunction suffer and the people at the
bottom. It's like it's not good for
anybody. I had thought now that I'm
doing this that I could escape away from
that. But that exact same mentality and
that dysfunction and that um that
inefficiency like I still battle it
every day. That's why it takes it takes
unique characters to lead the way. Such
unique characters are very much needed
in the music industry to revolutionize
everything. Cut through the bureaucracy,
the bullshit that ultimately is just a
machine that steals money and doesn't
get any anything done really. Uh we'll
talk about it. By the way, all the love
in the world to Jaco. He's great. I've
been going through lots of ups and downs
in life, lots of low points for myself
over the past uh shit, three years
really, but
um uh recently especially. And he always
texts in this in this very high
testosterone way of like of like, you
good, bro? Just checking in. I mean,
he's a good man. He's a good man. He's
obviously an inspiration to millions of
people but also just
um is a good human being himself. So
maybe one sim one thing that we felt
similarly I'm just I I would imagine you
way more than me is just feeling like
like wow I have the ability to influence
or the ability to to to either bring
truth or to improve people's lives or or
you know every word that you say
sometimes matters so much and you're
just like man I'm an idiot like I don't
like I don't know you know like I would
have never guessed I mean we were kind
of talking about that before about like
it would have for guess that it would
have turn that this would have turned
into all this but it's it is a it is a
it is a weight that you bear whether you
really even acknowledge it or not you
know like um yeah and I think is like
you know the the songs you've created
they uh speak to the human condition to
the struggle of uh everyday working
people in a society that has the elites
that try to take advantage of those
working people and You're just speaking
through your music those truths of how
life is. And then that has a huge impact
on a lot of people. That's really
positive. But then you also get attacked
and misrepresented and lied about from
different angles.
And just the turmoil, the intense chaos
of that, it disorients it. It disorients
me like to be attacked by very large
number of people to be lied about to be
just the it because I love people and
just have I have a general optimism
about humanity. It just disorients me
like um it gives me this feeling like I
generally just like you said think of
myself as kind of an idiot not really
knowing what I'm doing. And when a lot
of people tell you that you're correct,
you don't know what you're doing, you
start to like want to hide. You want to
hide from the world, hide from yourself.
And then there's also just the the
chemistry of the brain. It's like you
shake up the brain a little bit. It
starts getting it starts getting weird.
And so it can get on many uh fronts, it
can get real lonely when you're getting
attacked, when you're kind of fucking
things up. in many ways it can get
lonely. Yeah. So it's been so you get a
text from Jo like you good? Yeah. Yeah.
And then I mean I have good friends.
Andrew Huberman's been great. Rogan's
been great. Well, you know you
Lex, however many years ago was in a
different place in society than Lex is
now. And so it's like every conversation
you have or every relationship you have
is inherently different. Even if you
aren't any different. friends that you
had from before maybe or even just new
people you meet, your interactions with
them are going to be a lot different
than if this wasn't a thing. And so it's
like that that can be tricky too at when
you've spent your whole life, you know,
from the time you're three years old and
you're starting to play with other kids
and like developmentally learning like
how to share and how to interact and
you're on the you're playing, you know,
you're playing on the playground with
kids and learning how to like set rules
and boundaries and how to like basically
fit into society and like so you have
this whole learning pattern up until
whatever point in time when when success
happens and then it's like all that
shifts pretty dramatically all, you
know, in a relatively short period of
time. And there so like how do you how
do you think like managing your previous
like previous friendships or your like
you know how has that been tricky for
you or like how does that it's been
tough. I you know I value deep close
long-term friendships and Yeah. But I
mean I have amazing friends but they
certainly do treat me a little
different. They they bust my balls
noticeably less. Yeah. And you need you
need that sometimes. I need I not
sometimes all the time. First of all,
it's how dudes show love is making fun
of each other. At least my friends.
Yeah. Like you know when you watch Man
I'm going to get in trouble but when you
watch like women interact they're often
like really positive towards each other.
Like oh you look great
this watch dudes interact like close
friends. There's just like I mean
busting each other's balls. I'll stop
making fun of each other.
Uh and so yes, that has been a little
bit harder. I I try I try to break those
walls like
but that's why with the famous friends
it's a little bit easier because they
can still like Rogan roasts me non-stop.
So just it's uh and it just feels good.
I just sit there and get made fun of and
it's great. It's great. And I still do
it all the time. I just it's just a
different experience now. But I I'm like
a Goodwill junkie. Like um most of like
most of even my clothes were from
Goodwill, but like I have this I have
this like addiction with buying
paintings from Goodwill. Like the $8
paintings where it looks like somebody
was following along with like a Bob Ross
video and it didn't work out quite
right. Like I like I buy every one of
those. I'll go in there and buy like 10
of And so just even you know anytime you
got into public now it's just like you
know it's going to be a little different
than it was. You know I don't know if
that makes sense or not but Yeah. Yeah.
For sure. I mean, hey, you I'm trying to
deal with it, but all of it when you
talk to world leaders, when you step
into politics a little bit, and you
apparently stepped into politics, even
though you never meant to, you're not a
political
person. That that world is like, what
the fuck? It's very intense, especially
at an intense moment in history in in an
extremely divided country. So, yeah,
like saying that I'm not in politics,
people like, "Well, of course you're in
politics." And I don't know whether I am
or not, but just
um I do think a lot of people in
politics like as far as the people who
sit on the internet all day and argue
about stuff on X or on whatever, you
know, Facebook and all like I do think
their heart is in it for the right
reasons. They observe that there's a lot
of things wrong in the world that they'd
like to see different. It's
just how do you get those people out of
a how do you get those people out of
this 4x4 square and like really like
they're they're entrapped in a in a same
kind of box that the people at Boeing
might be with that struct you know it's
too there it's the tornado metaphor I
mean but it applies in politics too like
that there needs to just be a tornado
through politics and we need to figure
we need to just like lay all this other
stuff aside and just figure out what's
really pissing everybody off what's
really affecting our quality of life. A
lot of times we're arguing over the
symptoms of problems instead of
identifying the problems. If that makes
any sense. I mean that if Jordan
Peterson were here, he would tell us
about fire and how important that is and
burning and like it but it is all the
same. Water and fire and ice metaphor
and there would definitely be a
connection to the Bible and then we
would receive a three-hour lecture and
it's true. But it is it's all true. Like
it's all true. It is all it's all 100%
accurate. Yeah. That's the crazy thing.
But it all ties into that same thing
like you um yeah in politics now it's
almost like there's a rulebook that you
have to follow and if you you can't
agree with this unless you also agree
with that. You know, it's like and maybe
it's like the places the way that we
receive information about what's going
on in the political landscape is always
so biased and it's like the well it's
it's contingent upon this algorithm this
like al algorithmic system that we live
under where we're fed it's like we're
almost fed certain subcate and it's and
it's easy to fall into that because you
don't like hearing things you disagree
with and so it's a lot easier to just
turn the TV on or go on Facebook and
look at whatever page posts things that
you know you're going to consist
consistently agree with every day and
that's not going to challenge the way
you think in any little way, you know,
or or like expand your thinking at all.
It's it's easy to just it's kind of like
a it's a cult-like type of thing. It's
like, you know, here's this is what we
all agree with and if you don't then go
and get, you know, like but it it
doesn't it we're far too complicated for
it to really work that way. Well, this
actually relates to one of my favorite
things in your conversation with Jordan
where you're just where where you're
just shooting a shit about like uh
playing live music and he goes to
Kerkugard. Yeah. She's like Sauron
Kerkugard the
philosopher. I love Jordan so much. I do
too. He just goes to Carl Young Na. Um
and there this idea from Kugar that the
crowd is on truth. So when you there's
elements to the crowd that loses the
humanity and the honesty of a an
individual that makes up the crowd
because the default incentive of the
crowd is to
conform to some kind of narrative. It's
like
a it's like a distributed system that
arrives at a narrative and the narrative
holds control over that crowd as opposed
to the individual humans who are
thinking for themselves and being honest
with their own thoughts and realities
and so on. So that he he was saying that
as a reason from a communication
perspective to speak to individuals in
the crowd not to the crowd. M so from
the performer perspective the moment you
speak to the crowd you're speaking to
the lie that is the crowd according to
sen ko it's pretty hardcore kagard is
pretty hardcore Jordan's pretty hardcore
but that is true I mean but spec but
specifically in my case I mean really it
applies more than it probably does in a
lot of cases with crowds and music you
know talking about Richmond I wasn't
necessarily even excited that Richmond
did as well as it did it was Like in a
way it was almost like alarming that it
did so well, you know, and so those
crowds that show up like maybe they do
like my music, but I also think they're
there for something. There is something
bigger about it. I mean I I wish I would
have done a better job of having people
there at shows to capture some of those
crowds I had in 24. Man, you mean the
size, the intensity? The intensity like
it was revolutionary almost. Song of
revolution. Yeah. I think of redemption
song from Bob Marley. Like that song, it
just connected with people. There's
something there. Well, and so many
people identified different elements.
Like I said, it goes back to when we
were kind of talking when we first got
here, but it was it was crazy how it was
almost like at the beginning with along
with the scrutiny and some of the other
things. It was a lot of different people
like almost fighting over me or fighting
over it like cuz it resonated with
different it it resonated with people
who voted differently than each other
which is which is probably a pretty
terrifying thing if you're if you're in
the business of keeping people divided
and angry at each other. So it, you
know, it was
a, it was one of the fir one of the only
times that I can think where there was
that that much of a sense of unity among
people who otherwise wouldn't. I mean
like I mean I think about 9/11 when I
was a kid. I was in fourth grade, but
God, man, people were just like people
just put everything aside there for a
little while. And it was kind of it was
kind of like there's bigger problems
that just aren't in our face. And if we
man if they're in your face for just for
a second or two, you realize
like it's it's hard to it's hard in your
mind to create a a graph that's got like
all these but you know we argue about a
lot of these problems, but if you were
to really look at them
like if you really to stand back and
look at all the problems we spend time
focusing about on the internet versus
all the things that are affecting us
like that really and probably at our
core even piss us off. It's it's got to
be very disproportionate. And like the
reason it got the reaction it did is
because we all like no matter what it is
that we're upset about or what we think
needs to be different in the world or
our opinions of things or how we're
raised or what our parents taught us,
it's like I think we all feel a little
bit out of control in this new society.
We all feel like we're
probably we probably all feel like we're
falling into this kind of like corporate
power structure where none of us where
we are we all are just robots. We're all
just we're not allowed to be ourselves
and be human almost, you know. And there
was enough people feeling that. I mean,
people on the left feeling like the
people in power fucking over the working
class, people on the right feeling the
exact same with different words assigned
to it. The deep state, you know, fucking
over middle America. Yeah. Whatever the
narratives are. And they're just when
enough of that is
happening again with the corporate
polite speak, there's something about
politeness that's really dangerous. I
feel like there's a lot of politeness in
the Soviet Union.
Yeah. Great example. Yeah. Underneath
that, it's like Chernobyl, uh, which is
this nuclear power plant that melted
down.
Um, I feel like the
bureaucracy needs politeness and
civility.
and paperwork to function. And then
atrocities can happen underneath that.
So everybody, people in power with a
smile on their face can just do horrific
things. Mhm. And then give propaganda
that look, you know, it's rainbows and
sunshine and and unicorns. Yeah. So
people that are rude, I mean, I'm
starting to awaken to this a little bit.
Like you need a little like Tom way says
uh I like my Tom with a little drop of
poison. You need some
like some poison, some some swearing,
some meanness, some bullshit, some like
intensity to shake up a system because
when it uh sort of converges towards
this polite bureaucracy, the atrocities
can happen and hidden away. And what's
probably the most terrifying to me is
that that politeness is just theatrical,
whereas it it emulates the respect that
we would normally give each other in
society if we were healthy and
functional. What was the process of
writing that
song? I mean, it really spoke to the
pain of and anger of millions of people.
So, there's magic there. Was that what
how many how many edits? How many like
lines did you write? Were there any
lines that you were like tormented by,
haunted by, come back? Should I do it
this way or this way or that? Do you Do
you have a I don't know. Do you Can you
pull Tik Tok up on this? So, if you go
to my page, so if you go down chickens,
go Yeah. Go down pre- Richmond, you can
see the original version of Richmond
where I put it up. This is so cool to
see the evolution. There it is. Okay.
So, that's that's if you play that.
That's I have too many unfinished songs.
Yeah. Play that. Click that and play it.
Sell my soul.
724 bullshit so I can sit out
here back home.
And if you read through this, it's so
funny. Everybody's like, "You're about
to blow up."
[Music]
That's all I had. So I had I had just
that. You should probably finish this
one. Might be real
popular. That's a post from a few days
later.
That was in That was in July. Fuck.
That's so inspiring, man. So, that's
what I had. That's so
inspiring. That's what like a couple
weeks before uh you posted the final.
Well, that's all I had ver Yeah, that's
all I had written at that point. Like
that in my mind, that's what that's the
inspiration for the song was that little
bit. And I wrote that just cuz I was on
job sites all day and um you know going
into like all these just terrible places
to work like dealing with different
contractors and stuff. You were talking
about wanting to go and talk to
bluecollar people and all. It's like
that's what I did for work basically for
eight years was build long-term
relationships with people in bluecollar.
I was in the industrial space. So I
would talk sometimes I'd talk to 20
different people a day. You know, when
you sit in a job site trailer and talk
to and talk to a group of dudes like and
you're not there with some news camera,
you're just there as like a random dude.
Like, you hear so much about what really
goes on behind the scenes of of the
structure of what builds what builds
this country and keeps it going. And um
I think that's probably what it was. It
was just a it was how I felt, but also
how I guess a lot of other like you
know, it was just I don't know. It just
seemed like the truth. So, so you jot it
down even to the details like in a
notebook like those words? No, it's
always just on my phone. I would just
keep recording the I would just keep,
you know, like so if you were to go back
to Tik Tok like and look at any of those
original videos.
Um, so like the songs that ended up
charting, let's say like the ones that
were on there that charted with
Richmond, like this I've Got to get
Sober. So, literally, that's a good
song, man. So, literally what I did was
this video I took at my property. This
is my carport where my camper was. And
uh I took this video. I went to some
sketchy virus written MP3 to wave file
or MP4 to wave file transfer thing. I
would rip the audio off of this video,
put this on TikTok, and then put that on
Drokid. And that's the that was the
song. But basically, like this would
this would have been the first time I
played I've Got to Get Sober all the way
through. Like I would just keep writing
it and working on it, writing it and
record myself. And maybe I would record
myself 30 times over the period of like
two months. You know what I mean? Oh,
but it's when you say writing, you mean
in your head, not actually typed out or
written in, right? It was just mostly
just videos over and over. Just videos.
I'm just trying to figure out how to
make it. Yeah. But that's what all these
all these are like the audio file from
all these videos is what's is what ended
up on Spotify and all that. You know
what I mean? This is It's cool to see
these videos before you blew up. So,
this is a good song. You're playing up
guys. So, what what is this at the end?
Yeah. Yeah. These were all
Don't sell your soul, brother. This is
the best music I've heard in a long
time.
That's a comment before you blew up.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think I had about 10,000
followers or something.
What a fucking song. That's a good one.
And you got to think like this was like
that was my
that was when I quit drink. You know
what I mean? Like so
but the troules and
the world that were in knock me back off
my feet. So that's coming from from from
your heart right there.
Just imagine
the thousands of people you helped with
that.
Yeah. But it ain't going to happen
tonight. So pour them down
strong until I
[Music]
drown. And if I wake up
tomorrow, when that sun comes back
around, I'll be wishing I was sober.
It's so crazy how those cicas and stuff
come in.
Like I just felt like it was a god. I
don't know how to like that's just off
my phone. All that stuff's just there,
you know?
and the bowl. They've been saving my
soul from the pain that the world's put
on
me. And Lord, I know that upstairs
there's an old man who cares. And one
day he'll set me
free. I'll go
on the hill. That's a genius of song.
That's genius, brother. That's genius.
It's just crazy to think about.
Yeah. And what's this one right before?
What is this?
Oh, yeah. So, that's like the probably
the
And this is a nice recording. Got it.
Yeah. So, this video got uploaded and
then Draven from RadioWV would have
gotten a hold of me in between this and
that. He watched this and was like,
"Dude, you got" He said, "We gotta
record that one." And that like, so I
didn't have it all, but I just had
whatever was in that video is all I had
written. It was I I think it was just
the chorus and the first verse. Draven
saw that video. I said, "We got to do
this one." Reach out to me to record and
he's like, "Yeah." He's like, "No, we
got to do that one." And I was like,
"Dude, that's all I got." Tell me about
that guy, Draven. He probably is like,
you know, he's probably like my best
friend now. We we hit it off with this
and we're like b we're like brothers now
I guess but you talk about like what
he's doing for country for music in
general for country music for
discovering talent for like he's clearly
sees something in people. Yeah. He's
just this he's a little bit younger than
I am and he's he wrote music and played
and he's got some of his if you look up
Draven Refe. is going to kill me for
even saying this, but he's got some
pretty dude, he can if he was like a pop
singer, he would be like a he can write
the most catchy stuff ever. Um, let's
go. Yeah. So, click on like I don't know
like you go. All right.
That's him. Yeah.
[Music]
Where is this from? 5 years
ago. I was feeling on my way. I was 10
years old, walking underneath the
blanket of West Virginia snow. Then I
walked right by. No trespass sign. Did a
grass look green across property line.
Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
You know, he could probably do if he
does like he could probably be real
famous. Well, he's got a certain look.
that dude will sit there and he'll just
like we'll just be sitting there at like
two in the morning and he'll just all of
a sudden do this little thing and he's
got like the most amazing first part of
this like song or we just started to
co-write together like in the last few
months. So I'm really excited for that.
But if you go to his This is really
funny too. I'm sorry Draven I love you
man. So go to videos and go to oldest
first. This is what's so awesome about
Draven. He was originally working for
this lady who was trying to develop
different types of hair care products,
but he thought the market was too
saturated. So, he was going to get into
beard oil. So, he created
RadioWV as like a fake plug page for his
burly boy beard brand he was working
with. So, like click like if you look at
um Yeah. Like that very first video.
Yeah. It's like it's got all his beard
products and if you look there's a
there's multiple ones like that. Yeah.
So, he started it just to do this beard
thing with and then like I don't know,
he just kind of felt called to like keep
going with it and it and it just sort of
naturally progressed. Yeah, that too is
inspiring. Like you start out one way
and then you discover something real
special. I mean, he's got a he's got an
eye for how to bring out I don't know
what it is like the both the audio side
and the video side. how to bring out the
bus in. He says he just wants it to
sound like the way he likes hearing it,
which kind of makes sense, you know,
like it's kind of in the same way
talking about when we were talking about
setting the cameras up and a
professional would tell you you needed
three lights and you're like, well, I
think it would work with the that he's
just kind of like, well, it'll just work
like this and and do it in a way where
he likes it. Yeah. Just do it for
yourself. He does it cuz he loves it and
that and you can see it shows, you know.
Yeah. You can see it in there. Um, and
there's some good talent like you were
showing me this new lady, Gabriel. Yeah,
she's got it. But not a lot of people
would uh record her doing that song. But
he's like I don't know. It just was
different. I just thought people ought
to hear it. But he's man, it was a
blessing that he came along when he did.
It was like um it really changed both of
our lives. We got to talk about that. So
you posted the the song Rich Men North
of Richmond on August 8th, 2023. I
remember I was at work that day when it
went up. Yeah. So it blew the fuck up
straight to number one on the charts.
tens of millions of views and
listens. Uh, and a few days later on
August 17th, he made a post that I
thought was pretty gangster. I was
beautiful and gangster. Uh, so one one
of the things he said is, "It's been
difficult as I browse through the 50,000
plus messages and emails I've received
in the last week. The stories that have
been shared paint a brutally honest
picture. suicide, addiction,
unemployment, anxiety, depression,
hopelessness, and the list goes on. And
then you went on to write, "People in
the music industry give me blank stairs
when I brush off 8 million dollar
offers. I don't want six tour buses, 15
tractor trailers, and a jet. I don't
want to play stadium shows. I don't want
to be in the spotlight. I wrote the
music I wrote because I was suffering
with mental health and depression.
These songs have connected with millions
of people on such a deep level because
they've been sung by someone feeling the
words in the very moment they were being
sung. No editing, no agent, no bullshit,
just some idiot and his guitar. The
style of music that we should have never
gotten away from in the first place. So,
huge props for that. for walking away
from lucrative multi-million dollar
record deals and I'm sure the money that
was just coming your way. Huge props.
You know, moments happen where you know
the world tests you and
integrity is what you do in those
moments. So, huge props for that. What
was your philosophy? What was your
thinking behind that? It was all those
messages I got. I mean, you can see it
in the comment sections of a lot of the
videos after everything h but people
just like felt this spark like like wow
like maybe we actually have a chance to
like maybe we actually do have some kind
of power you know like those people put
that song there nobody else and like
gave me the opportunity to make even
without sign anything I was still able
to make millions of dollars and have
financial freedom
and like I
just I just felt
like I felt like if I was going to do
anything like that that I'd be I'd be
betraying like I would be taking those
people and and almost betraying them
somehow, you know, like uh like they I
hate the big machine just like everybody
else. And I the last thing I'd want to
do is be is
ever supported or be a part of it. Like
I want to watch it crash and burn, you
know? Like see this is the really
important thing is whether it was
betrayal or not, we'll never know. But
you felt like that it was. And to have
the integrity to walk away from the bag
of money when you felt that way, that's
fucking epic. It was also, you got to
think a couple months before this, like,
of course, I had, you know, I had a wife
and kids that I loved and like I had a
lot of really important things to live
for, but I didn't have a whole lot to
lose. Like, like none of this was even
really real. Like it I didn't care about
that. like I didn't care to lose this
just as quick as I got it. Like this
didn't this was this didn't mean
anything to me. It just meant something
to me that like that I could do
something for like you know
you it's like even if I'm not smart
enough to figure out how to fix some of
my own problems in my life, the fact
that I felt like I could help fix
somebody else's like that meant a hell
of a lot more to me than any that's what
I didn't want to lose. I didn't want to
lose those people's trust or like feel
you know what I mean like Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And so I've just tried to make
every decision around like as best as I
can like what I think the right thing is
to do and who knows what the hell the
right thing is to do. But I just try to
follow, you know, we all have that
little voice in us like that. We all
have some whe and and I think sometimes
we mask it's hard for us to listen to
that little voice whether whether it's
like you know whether it's our gluttony
or our lust or our or
our you know we we numb ourselves with
medications or with alcohol or we we
scroll on YouTube for 4 hours a night
and instead of because we don't want to
listen to our conscience but there is
this like very intelligent discerning
thing inside of us that's able to tell
us what's right and wrong. And it's a
it's a spiritual thing, I guess. And I
just try to I just try to listen to that
when I can. I don't know. I just still
feel like I haven't done enough. I think
you I think you did a lot. I think you
did a lot. I think you're an
inspiration. You have helped a huge
number of people. And you're also an
inspiration to the other side of it,
which is the artists and just to humans
to have integrity. I don't think people
realize how much of a test of integrity
fame, money, you know, power
also is, you know, uh Rogan and I talk
about this quite a bit. We get to see I
mean Joe especially, but I haven't I've
had a bit of the same. You get
to see people become
famous and you get to see how they deal
with that and it's not easy. A lot of
people will sell themselves a bit, sell
the soul a bit, give away a bit of their
integrity of the spirit that made them
who they are. You get caught up in the
wave of it, you know, and so to to keep
on holding on to that, that's a powerful
thing. That's a really Yeah, that's all
I got though, you know? When you lose
that, what the hell are you like? And
you see it like you see these celebrity
people that just like fall off the they
fall off this, you know, they go off the
deep end. And it's like it's you got to
have you have to have something in your
life to and to keep you centered and to
keep you
um you know your whole perception of
reality and like you're just existence
in reality as all contingent upon this
sort of like this center that you exist
in and you have to if you don't have
that then you're just flying through spa
through sp I mean we're all just riding
on this rock that's going who knows how
fast. You said something uh I think to
Jaco that I really liked. Everything
that has purpose behind it comes with
risk. So there in that moment, I mean,
you're taking a hell of a risk. I was
terrified. I talked about this a little
bit with him, too, but I was terrified
to even put the song out. Like I knew I
was going to be the subject of scrutiny
and judgment, and I knew people were
going to like, you know, I kind of knew
all that was going to happen. And I was
like going back to that talking about
crowds like to stand in front of
thousands of people and everybody be in
some sense of unity. Like a lot of times
when I end the shows, I'll
always I'll always end with this
statement that just says, you know, no
matter what,
like no matter how you feel when you go
online, you know, everyone feels so
small and insignificant and and
powerless. But I just say no matter how
they make you feel online or when you
turn on the TV or when you look at
polling numbers or whatever, like when
you just look at all this trash that we
digest every day, like you're there's
always there will always be more of us
than them and and all that and but like
to see that like just to see the light
in people's eyes when you say that. But
the truth is like and it's like who is
us and who is them? And it's like us
just represents humanity and like and
and all the things we talked about so
far like
just you know the fire and the chaos and
but also the like the love and just just
life life is just such a crazy
complicated beautiful disastrous thing
and then them is like it is it's the
power structure it's the it's that same
terrible side of us that created things
like the Soviet Union and and and is
ultimately what's created this mon this
like monster that we all live under
today which now is not just doesn't just
exist within the confines of the Soviet
Union but seems to almost be a global
epidemic and then that song became the
rebel call against that against the
power structures that creates that.
Yeah. It's like how much fire am I
willing to play with cuz I know at some
point I am going to get burned from it.
I just pray a lot that God I don't have
a lot of selfworth in myself anyway. So
I don't really care what they say or do
to me or I don't care like I don't even
care if I die. Whatever. Just don't let
just just protect the people I love is
all. That's all I ask of God. I have
this dream of just creating this
parallel system that sits beside all
these stupid systems that we live under
that are all sort of engulfed in this
this thing that we talked about at the
beginning.
this this type of structure, you know,
we're none of us where we're all just
robots. And it's like if we hate, you
know, if we hate the way music is and
all these artists are complaining about
the way the venues are monopolized and
the ticket sales are monopolized and
let's just go find other places to play
music cuz there's so many people hungry
for music in places that don't ever get
it. And if you look at it, there's so
many passionate people that are fighting
all these different causes like like
just in food. It's the word they use for
b for more or less starvation. It's a
more polite it's called food insecurity.
But if you look up just in Virginia,
just where I live in Virginia in the
rural areas, how much food insecurity
there is and how many empty vacant farms
there are. It's like this is an obvious
problem that we should be on Twitter
talking about non-stop. Like this is
like everyone has to eat, you know? It
don't matter what you vote for or what
like what you look like or any of that
crap. if you can, you know,
like so like let's just like why why are
we living in a country where we have why
are we living in a country where half of
us are obese and eating shit food and
don't know any better and then the other
half of us don't have like how just it's
just it's lack of leadership that's
caused dysfunction and so if we're tired
of that then then let's just fix it.
Like we don't need anybody's permission.
Like that's the whole beauty. Like
that's the whole beauty of what America
is is like we don't we don't need some
greasyhaired corporate schmuck to give
us permission to go fix all these things
that are wrong. Let's just go do it. And
if they don't like it, fuck them. You
know, in all domains of life from from
food to the music industry honestly to
education also to government itself all
of it. And that, you know, your
music is also just the soundtrack to
that spirit that makes America great of
just constantly trying to revitalize
itself. When the bullshit piles up a
little too high, there's that
revolutionary spirit that says like, "We
need to fix this shit." And and that
inspiration that created this country
was from years of people living under
tyranny. like we forget the story of the
people who really created this country.
Like it's funny, I one of the statements
I made at the very beginning that got
taken way out of context, but I wasn't
in a position to like even begin to have
a conversation about is I made this
comment early on at one of the shows
about about how about about how our
diversity is a strength. But that term
has been hijacked now to mean something
a lot different than what it really
means. But it's like think about how
many different people came together just
at the founding of this country. like
people who spoke different languages,
different cultures, religions, ways of
thinking. So many different people came
together to even create this place now.
And like we've just forgotten about all
that. They didn't all come here because
they wanted to ride on some miserable
boat ride and risk their whole lives to
go to live in some crazy jungle
essentially that had no structure, like
no infrastructure, no medicine, no like
they didn't come here for like some
glorified camping trip. is because they
were tired of like generations of being
persecuted and living under tyranny and
not being allowed to practice their, you
know, it's not like they wanted freedom
of religion and they didn't want
separation of church and state because
they were a bunch of goody two shoes and
they love going to church every Sunday.
It's because they weren't allowed to
believe in what they believed in because
some asshole king or some hierarchy told
them they couldn't and they were just
tired of it. That's what we're losing
now is like we've forgotten that we're
those people. like the same structures
that have plagued this country are
they're multinational corporations and
they're and it's just the ideology
behind them and their and their
structure is what the problem is. Yeah.
I mean it's uh multinational
corporations.
It's nation states that uh are deeply
corrupt and are authoritarian and
ultimately abuse power and yes create uh
elements of tyranny and from
that the the human spirit rises
uh like I said with w with with with
songs like the ones you write or at the
founding in this country you know that's
why all these diverse outcasts come
together and write something as crazy as
all men are created equal. What a
gangster
line. Like that's not an easy thing. We
take a lot of that stuff for granted
now. That's not an easy thing to come up
with. That's a really gutsy thing to to
see to see the value in all people
equally. And of course, they also were
uh suffering from delusion. You know,
they didn't see black people as equal.
They didn't see women as equal. But even
that first leap of like all men are
created equal. That's like a gigantic
fuck you to the past. Taking that leap
forward really took a lot in an age in a
time when when it probably sounded cra
and it's not like they just made a
statement and put it on Twitter. Like
they they like think about how much just
think about the insanity. Like I can't
even conceptualize the insanity of what
took place from the time that like even
from the revolutionary war until now to
try to preserve that idea. You know, so
like so much has happened and so much
sacrifice has been made and just so many
hours of labor and thought and
intensity. Even the 20th century's got
two world
wars and uh you know especially in the
second world war the United States
played a very crucial role and there was
a lot of
ideological like battle of ideas going
on at that time. Yeah. Of the role of
war and peace of the role of the United
States as the as the center place for
the ideal of human freedom and human
rights. Yeah. We continue to innovate.
So, I'd love to get back to talking to
blueco collar people you mentioned. Um,
those are some of my favorite people.
So, it was actually really cool to find
out that for many years of your life,
basically the way you made a living is
talking to blueco collar people and
getting their story. So, I'm traveling
across the world for a bit. But of
course, the world I I love the most and
I'm most curious about is the different
subcultures and towns of the United
States. So, I I I took a road trip
across the US in my early 20s for for
several months. And that was like a
transformative experience for me. And
and that's something
um one of the luxuries I have is to the
to have the freedom to do whatever the
hell I want now. And So, uh, I wanted to
take a road trip across the United
States for several months. And one of
the things I wanted to do is to just to
to talk to to people in in small towns
in middle America. I don't know what
words to put on it, but to talk to the
very people that you talked about that
that
uh you know, construction workers,
plumbers, waitresses, oil rig workers,
just people that do
something real, people that are real,
that don't make much money, that
struggle, but have a, as you talked
about, have like a richness. to them
that's not often revealed, that's not
often talked about. So maybe can you
speak to that to your to your time with
blueco collar folk when I got all those
messages at the we were talking about
early on earlier in this like so many of
them and even now it's even since I even
like in the last couple days I've gotten
some where they start with hey I'm a
nobody but like that's how a lot of
those start you know like the nobodies
of the world if you want to call them
like that's it's it's frustrating that
the the people who literally literally
have have have built and preserve and
maintain the structure of society that
we all comfortably live in. Those people
have the least amount of representation.
They're ignored just because of the way
the social hierarchy exists. But the
some of the most dim-witted,
irrelevant, terrible people are put here
and are idolized and spotlighted and
they're all over television and they're
all over the internet and we act like
they're like they're kings and queens
and like that they're royalty. And then
all these people who do jobs that most
of us would be too terri either either
wouldn't have the even the ability to
do. We'd be ter like like how many
people are going to go underwater and
weld but if we didn't have underwater
welders like one of my best friends
whose name is also Joo funny enough the
dude worked 70 80 hours every week he's
on the Chesapeake Bay uh tunnel job now
but the dude's gotten up on gotten on
heights that I couldn't get on he's went
he's went underground places I wouldn't
go and nobody will ever know like nobody
even knows those people's stories or
what they went through or like the kind
of lives they lived and and they're the
they're like the the people who create
the fabric of society and even the
waitresses and the waiters and like all
these factory jobs that I worked in all
those people like the you talk about the
craziest place I ever worked and the
craziest people I ever met was this
little place called Perfect Air in
Marian North Carolina and it was this
commercial air conditioning factory
which is I think closed now but they
didn't pay very well and so everyone
they hired was either people that had
criminal backgrounds who couldn't get
jobs elsewhere or idiots who dropped out
of high school and couldn't work
elsewhere like me. And so I was 18 years
old working in this place with people
who are mostly in their 50s and 60s. But
you want to talk about being exposed to
just a whole another world of people
like and just the stories and the just
those people are far more interesting
than than many of the people that we
consider to be celebrities. Like most
people who are celebrities are just
pretty boring and airheaded and don't
really even know what real life is
about. They're pretty unrelatable to the
rest of the world. And so it would be
really cool. I mean, that's the whole
reason that I want to go out and do
these shows in places that haven't had
music in them in 10 years because those
people like that is America to me. You
know, how many people in Pittsburgh have
been an hour outside of Pittsburgh? And
even in Virginia, if you lived in
Northern Virginia and you drive two and
a half hours southwest, you're in a
whole another planet. Like the people,
the accents, the culture. And so I feel
driven in the same way. Like I would
love to I would love to find a way to to
try to bridge that cultural gap to make
those people relevant and to make
because they are like some of the most
and like and it's funny because we
emulate a lot of those pe like you know
modern country music is a bunch of
people emulating those people you know
and there's also like uh I love people
that have a skill and become masters of
that skill also so that element is also
there even if it's like insanely
difficult work like being a minor. Like
there's skill to that. There's stories
there. There's like what it takes to do
that. It's what I mean some of my
favorite humans are engineers and all
they do is solve really hard problems
and they develop I mean it's a pain in
the ass job. Yeah. Anything in the
factories is extremely difficult but
that you learn so much about what it
takes to solve intricate like nuanced
problems in the physical world. So coal
mining, oil rigs, like you mentioned,
welding, that's a fascinating line of
work. And and those are trades that are
in many cases dying because we don't
because they aren't popular in culture
anymore. Everything from agricultural to
plumbing and electrical. It's like those
are all areas I think if you were to go
out and talk to some of those people and
shed light on it, it would like you
could change the you could change the
entire landscape in America of how of
how it's perceived and like and make it
cool, you know? Yeah. So, thank you what
you're doing on that front. I I want to
say I wrote it down. Please, if you know
people that would be willing to talk,
reach out to me. A good way to do that
is lexfreedman.comcont.
This was another one of the things early
on that I had an idea about and I
thought was getting done and it wasn't
that I I've got to go back and try to
figure out is doing prison shows and uh
doing rehab shows and all that. But I am
really intrigued with like going into
those places and trying to immerse
myself in just the the mental state that
those people are in and like it's not
talked about a whole lot. But also
people who get out excomvicts, I mean
that that's a hard life. That's just a
hard life to try to reintegrate back
into society. Yeah. And a lot of those
people at Perfect Hair that I worked
with, they almost all were in some form
of legal trouble. Like there was a lady
that worked on the assembly line beside
me named Denise. And uh her and her
husband had been manufacturing
methamphetamine and he took the fall for
most of it. She only had to go on
probation. He was still in prison. But
man, like Denise was a very sweet lady
and like aside from the meth
manufacturing, like she was like great,
you know, like and just such a character
like in such a good way. And so it's
like, yeah, just Denise,
lexfreeman.com, let's talk. I mean,
yeah, you know, like both both sort of
the plumbers and the coal miners and uh
Denise with the the old meth habits. I
mean, they're walking the line of like,
you know, surviving is hard. Yeah. So
you have to do a real hard job and then
you also have to live life which is in
general
hard you know divorce kids die you lose
like the medical issues and that that
can destroy you completely all of a
sudden something happens you can't
afford it then the the insurance system
destroys people all of that. So you have
to somehow navigate life while working
your ass off in a real hard job. And
those
people, they have stories. That's a real
pain. And from that pain, from that
anger, that's where uh Richmond north of
Richmond, that was that that you could
just feel their pain come through with
that song and with your other work. So
that like there is a landscape of
suffering. Yeah. It doesn't have to be
that. We don't all have to be that
decentralized either. Like if all if
there is that much commonality among
people, which I do believe there is,
like just innately in suffering and and
and yeah, like there's a guy there's a
guy in West Virginia that I talked to
that he's got a piece of property beside
of mine that he was interested in
selling, but the reason he's he's got
this dream of opening a um like putting
some cabins there and renting them out
for people to come Airbnb. He works at
Lowe's full-time, but he's his son's got
this his son's like 19 and has got this
heart surgery he's got to have. And so,
he's trying to sell the place for that.
And just like just that guy and all and
all you'd ever see him as is the guy
that works at Lowe's, like pulling
lumber or whatever, but he's got this
very insanely complex life he's trying
to manage. He doesn't want to lose his
son. Like, he's just going to sell
everything. And like at one point in
time, maybe the church served that role
of like when people really fell off
track and they didn't have a support
system and they were like on this tiny
boat out in the ocean, they figured out
some kind of way to rally. In my mind,
that's like the dream of all this. If I
if I die and there's any like legacy
left or anything done, it's like finding
a way to take all the people that fill
that role and organizing them and
empowering them and protecting them.
It's rebuilding the community, but in a
real way, not in like this fairy tale
bullshit. Everybody's going to love each
other and we're all just going to be one
big happy family. Like everybody's still
going to get mad and hate each other in
certain ways and that's good. Like we
all we need those tornadoes like you
said. We need people pissed off and
angry and and we need people to feel
like they can be angry and open about
things that are wrong. Like people
should be able to speak their mind and
we shouldn't all just kiss each other's
ass and we shouldn't all just pretend to
be overly polite and say, "Hey Debbie,
you have a good weekend like you said."
Like we need all this controversy and
this turmoil and like we need the hell
of what that side that that the internet
brings out in people, but it just needs
to be in real life and it needs to be in
a way where we're all like we all are at
least chasing the same common goal,
which is probably that we don't want to
starve and we want to have decent health
and and we want to be able to like
provide a decent life for our kids or at
least we just don't, you know, we just
want to live a decent life. like
um I think somehow that that fixes
like that fixes what you describe like
the people who who fall in despair and
are isolated in it. It's a terrifying
world to live in. It's that principle
again. This is I need a phone a friend
thing where we can just keep calling
Jordan for all these things. But like he
explains there's this principle in the
Bible about about those who about the
more you have the more you'll receive
and the less you have the less you the
less you'll receive kind of a thing. And
it's a it's just a universal law in
society where it seems like the lower
you get to the bottom, it's almost like
the more like the less resources you
have available and the less the less
friends you have. And it's like you just
the the further you go snowballs into
where it's like people just hit rock
bottom and then and then what it's like
when you get out of prison, what do you
what are you supposed to do? Or when
you're a veteran with mental health,
like what are you supposed to do? Like
in my mind that's what the church is
supposed to be there for is like but
obviously it doesn't fill that role
anymore to some people at least religion
does a little bit. It gives uh it's at
least a foundation of community a
foundation of hope for people and when
they're really struggling. Yeah. You got
thousands of messages like you talked
about from people. You gotten to talk to
thousands of people about their pain.
Through your work, through your music,
you've been an inspiration to those
people to find a way out of the pain.
Can you tell the full story of your own
lowest
point before before all of this, before
the before the music, before you blew
up? Uh, can you take me through the
story of the depression, the
drinking, and just the roughest times in
your life?
It's sometimes it's not even, you know,
it it's funny, but it's almost not even
where you're at in life. It's where you
perceive yourself at in life and what
your what your goals are moving forward.
And I think
like, you know, I was I dropped out of
high school at 17, basically ran away
from home. I just I couldn't I have
always had this authority problem and so
I just didn't want to listen to my
parents. I didn't want to go to college.
I just wanted to go move into the
mountains. I was running away from
responsibility I guess is what I was
doing, you know. And so got this girl
pregnant. Had my first kid when I was 18
or just about to turn 19. And like I
said, I'm working in an air conditioning
factory with a bunch of convicted
felons. And so from there, everything
was just reactionary. I never really had
a plan. and I would jump from job to job
just like most everybody else. I don't
know. I just I just got to a point where
I guess I just quit believing in myself
and I knew that I wasn't doing I just
knew I wasn't doing I wasn't filling my
purpose and I wasn't being the best
version of myself I could be. And so the
the alternative to like facing yourself
in the mirror and accepting that that
I'm not a shitty person. I've just let
myself fall. You know, it's like it's so
hard to accept when you've had that fall
that it's just easier to just just to
get drunk and, you know, just do the
bare minimum you can to keep everything
sort of kind of moving along. But you
don't really care if you live or die.
You don't you don't really care about
much anything. Like your whole, you
know, I don't know. Life is just so
beautiful when you're a child. you're so
imaginative and exploratory and you're
learning all these things and you just
you just can't wait to be an adult
because you're just going to go out and
do all these
incredible, you know, and then you face
the reality of it. Yeah. And the
pressure and the fear of failure, like I
think maybe even my own fear of failure
is what drove is what drove me. And uh
but yeah, you just and you you think
negatively about yourself for so many
days and weeks and months and you like
you don't even have a real
self-awareness of like what you're doing
or how destructive you've become, but
you always have that that discernment in
you that
like that conscious, you know, that
little voice in your in your spirit that
is letting you know you're messing up,
you know? I was almost like in I was
wrestling with myself, you know, and so
I don't know. I just got to a point
where it just
like
I Yeah, just a just a
very just a very overwhelming sense of
numbness like like it don't like nothing
really nothing that mattered before
really matters anymore. Like I guess
that's that's probably to me the
definition of depression is when all the
things you love and care about are just
meaningless and you can't find you
really can't find meaning or purpose or
excitement in
anything, you know,
like like I think especially with men
that commit suicide, it's a it's a
prolonged period of that. It's not like
they just wake up one day and they have
a bad day and they kill themselves. It's
like you self-reflect negatively about
yourself and your life and you don't do
the things that you're supposed to do
every day for a long enough period of
time. And it's like pretty soon you've
built this whole mountain of of
of mismanaged,
neglected stuff, for lack of a better
word, like this mountain that you have
to climb back up in order to fix all
these things that you should have been
doing all along. And then the and then
on the other side of it, it's like,
well, I could just die. Like that seems
a lot like it's almost like for I think
from a man's perspective maybe the
friends that I've had that I've lost it
seems like a lot of times you think you
you'd never see it coming you know like
I don't know maybe that's a general
thing with it seems like a lot of times
men mask that better and you don't pick
up on it as much but
um I think it's like you just dig
yourself into a point to where it's like
you have a mountain of responsibility in
front of you that you haven't faced that
you don't know how to face and you h you
haven't been able to do so for a long
time. But there's this really easy
detour and it's just, you
know, putting your big toe on the
trigger and it's like which one of those
are I don't know like they both seem but
at that point your your perception of
reality is so distorted that like you
don't all the things that would normally
compel you to to move along like your
like love and joy and like your your
drive you know your drive to to be that
none of that really it's not there for
you to even contemplate if that makes
sense. It's it's like that part's is
almost like at least for a little while
invisible and all you see is fear and
responsibility and just this like I said
I just v I just envision it like a
mountain that you don't you don't really
know if you're even able to climb and
then the other option is
just so I I think that's probably where
that's probably where a lot of people go
and that's probably where I was was just
like you know yeah I mean there is the
it's Not just responsibilities, the
immensity of it, the
mountain. And I think you're accurately
describing how it happens, which is
gradually. Yeah. Seeing yourself in a
negative light over time slowly
suffocates you and then the burden of
the responsibility that piles
up. And
unfortunately, of course, one of the
ways out is to pull the trigger and the
other way out is the Jordan Peterson
back to Jordan sort of one gradual step
at a time like make your bed. Mhm. It's
like start climbing out like the
responsibilities before you one at a
time every single day just climbing out
and have faith that it will work out.
That was what was so powerful for me
about just beginning to open my mind
back up to reading just a little bit of
stuff like a little bit of stuff from
the New Testament that Jesus said and
some different perspectives and
teachings but like you know an apostle
would be in prison like basically being
tortured and facing death but like just
overjoyed in writing about talking about
it's all about your perspective of
things like I said like that's why I
never could understand why you know like
celebrities or professional I And giving
one example of many like a Kurt Cobain
type scenario where you have a guy
that's just immensely talented
just will always be loved by plenty of
people like I never could understand why
that guy there's a ocean of quiet
suffering in uh in a lot of and I think
it is disproportionately in men in a lot
of men and they hide it well that's why
blue collar workers have such a high
suicide rate and all too and why it is
so important to talk to those table and
yeah it's in you can see it in the eyes
and there there there is there is a lot
of pain there without like trying to get
without like trying to open up too many
doors I think that's probably the best
way I would describe it is just a series
of
really just a series of negligent
decisions and also just misperceptions
you know like I think this was an Andrew
Huberman thing where he talks about
medications and how it's a lot more
likely for somebody to keep their dog on
their medication schedule but not
themselves. You know, you love your dog
and your dog like is just this great
little thing and you just you don't see
the flaws and the faults and the sin and
the disgust in your dog that you do
yourself. So, it's much more likely for
people to make sure their dog has their
medication every day. But like there's
this alarming statistic with just the
amount of people that don't even fill
their prescriptions they need filled or
take care of themselves the way they do.
And and then that also like over time,
you know, like if you quit taking care
of yourself and you're not in good
health and you're and you're you're not
in a good routine, you're not doing
you're not like a ser a long series of
doing enough of those things. Like you
do, it's easy for you to just think that
your self-worth is zero. Cuz if you're
not even willing to like if you're not
even willing to like have basic hygiene
and and eat decent food and try to take
care of yourself, it's like why? How
like how on earth are you going to go
face all these things that you need to
face to get your life better if you
can't you don't even care enough to do
that? It's just like but it is it's a
it's a it's a it's a long tragic road to
get to that point. I think at least in
my case, the idea that there was
something bigger than me that loved me
even despite I had all these flaws and
problems and just that I was just such a
wretched person. That's what at least in
my situation, that's what I think helped
put, you know, more than anything. Like
I said, that's certainly where the
motivation to quit the once I quit the
drinking, it helped a lot because I was
able to even though it was a pain, it
was difficult, I was able to actually be
able to be honest with myself and
reflect on a lot of things that were and
you know, you got to think like I said,
I we watched the I mean, it was like
with of course in my case it was a
little unfair of an example cuz within a
month all this stuff had happened like
after I quit, but you know, um I see it
in my friends that have quit and have
tried to turn things around and it you
know it's like it's it's it is the most
beautiful thing in the world to see
somebody like come to life again after
being in one of those you're able to
like sort of like escape this shell of
of all those terrible things. And even
if you are still in a bad position and
you're still you got 30 grand worth of
credit card debt and you're working some
shit job and your car doesn't start half
the time and like you know your
girlfriend left you for some other dude
and like don't matter what it is like if
if at least that little glimmer of hope
that like that faith that there is a
chance at something greater like that
can that'll push people you can put you
can push you can push a mountain aside
with that you know like you can do
anything with that and I think it's also
good I think it is important to have a
good support structure. Like when you
get to that point, I don't think you
should I don't think anybody should have
to face that stuff by
themselves. And there's plenty of other
people out there that are in the same
position. And I think that's again I
think that's why it's so important for
us to try to get reconnected on a
personal level and not just through
digital communication because like we
don't real we don't all we see of each
other online is the good stuff. Yeah.
Very rarely are people on posting on
Facebook talking about, you know, how
could you even It's like all you see is
the best of people. But I don't think we
realize that we're all going through a
lot of the same things anyway. You know,
the low points and stuff. Guess what
happens when you either lose your job or
can't quite figure out a good job and
you're not making that much money or
you're basically broke and you have a
girlfriend that's not happy about you
being broke, she's going to leave you.
or if it's a wife that could face
divorce and like the breakups and
divorce can break a lot of people even
when they're doing well. Yeah. And now
when they're not doing well,
that's a rough one. And that basically
your support system for a lot of people
is the relationship is the is the wife
and the and so like that's taken the
support system from underneath you. And
I've had good friends of mine I've seen
get in destructive relationships and
like they'll start to date a girl and
then like within a year they're just
like a shell of what they were because
sometimes I do think it's I do think you
have to be careful with like your self
validation and the way you perceive
yourself and making sure that it's you
giving yourself that and not somebody
else. cuz I do think too it's like yeah
like you're you know how are you
supposed to if you can't even if you
can't even keep a woman around to love
you right like how are you supposed to
love yourself it's easy to think about
that like I' I've seen a lot of men get
wrecked in bad relationships and stuff
too that's it's a it's tough you know
yeah ultimately I think maybe dark to
say but there is there is a base layer
at which we're we're alone in this
world like you need to be strong by
yourself first and foremost. Cuz
sometimes there will be times in life
when everybody leaves you. Yeah. The
wife leaves you, the job leaves you, and
for some people might even people you
thought are friends will backstab you.
And even then, you have to have the
strength to find your footing again.
Like that that ultimately comes from
you, right? I mean, man, of course, like
I said, in all the experiences I've been
through, just I can't I'd be a fool to
deny it. But like I do think there is
God there that that's always there if
you're but you certainly can selfisolate
yourself too even from that. If you can
find faith in yourself, I've seen it do
wonderful things for human
beings. You and God, faith in something
bigger than you. Yeah, that can give
strength to a lot of people. But
uh allowing yourself to derive strength
solely from other people can be a
dangerous thing. Mhm. Cuz people are
complicated and they can betray, they
can
um just like they can fill your life
with love, they could also destroy you.
That's also the beautiful thing about
life.
Yeah, it is. You make yourself
vulnerable to other people. You form
deep relationships.
That means they can also destroy you. So
that's
life. That's what makes this whole thing
that's what And then you write really
great heartbreak songs.
Yeah. You know, people, you know,
there's something valuable about people
fucking you over and and hardship and
all that kind of stuff. Even the best of
us have terrible parts of us. Like we
are all flawed inherently because we're
human. And
so there there'll never be a there'll
never be another Garden of Eden on earth
like figuratively where where we all
just live harmoniously and everything's
great and happy and wonderful. But it is
it's those basic principles that you
talk about like love and our and those
relationships and those connections that
we have that that make it all because
the thing about it I mean like in a lot
of cases it's like what even that's the
position you get in when you get to when
you get so depressed and you get so low
is like what's the point in even doing
all this like it is it is just for
anyone it's just so crazy overly
complicated and exhausting to live isn't
it like even in this modern society
where we have all these wonderful little
conveniences and we can just have food
delivered right to our door if we want
and all this kind of crap. It's like
people are still like more depressed now
than they've ever been. And like all the
mental anxiety and all the mental health
stuff is just probably just as prevalent
as it's ever been. It's
it's people talk about money not making
you happy. And you know, it's like easy
when you're it's easy when you're broke
to think, man, if I had some money, and
of course, financial freedom is what
you're really looking for, not like an
abundance of wealth. But the things that
we talk about that make life worth
living aren't things that you can buy.
They are things that you obtain through
relationships and love and and life. And
so it's a it is just an infinitely
complex and crazy thing to think about,
but it's like u that human component of
us is what is what we is what's so
important to our to our long-term
existence. like our our ability to to
have connection with each other and the
joy we find in that, the purpose we find
in that
is it's not it's not anything that's
replaceable by with anything, you know.
Yeah, I've seen that with uh just seeing
the effects of war on the people and
basically war strips away everything.
you lose your home, you you you lose
everything and uh you get to see what's
actually really important and that is
the other people in your life uh
friends, family. It's almost cliche to
say, but it's
uh it's the people you love in your life
that make up the essence of what makes
life worth living. It's not the homes,
the material possessions, the even the
job and whatever else. It's the the the
humans. So, yeah. Yeah. It's important
to remember. A lot of us, especially in
the United States under a capitalist
system, are chasing money.
Yeah. It's important like to remember
what you're doing it all for. I got to
talk to you about your um your writing
process. You've written just uh a bunch
of really
incredible songs. You say you're not
good at you're not a good musician,
which is hilarious. Dude, I have no I
have like zero self-confidence about any
of I mean just about anything. But I ju
when I say that I'm not being funny.
Like I'm like you get nervous when you
like get on stage. Oh yeah.
Yeah. Like I can think about shows
coming up and my hands will sweat
thinking about them. Yeah. Hey, you told
me that you like haven't really played
the songs for like a couple months, like
old songs since September. Yeah, since
September. Well, dude, like think about
how
like you know I can't I'm not going to
just sit around and play I've Got to get
sober for fun like and like you know. So
you feel you feel the songs when you
play them. Yeah.
Yeah, man. That's rough. That's that's
rough. A lot of musicians talk about
that kind of thing though, right? Like
about this. I don't know. I've heard
about that with people like about hating
to play songs because of the that side
of it. But Oh, yeah. I've um I've become
close friends with Dan Reynolds who's uh
the lead singer for Imagine Dragons.
Yeah. And he says every time he performs
a song, I mean he has songs that have
depression in them and all that kind of
stuff. And he says like the only real
way to do it is to feel it. You you have
to you can't just fake it. you have to
like be in it. You have to like really
feel the song as if you're singing it as
if you're writing it for the first time.
So, as a performer that that he says
that that's his duty he has to to the to
the audience. But then that takes a
toll. That's not easy to do that uh
especially with the songs that you
write. I mean there's a lot of darkness
there in your songs. Yeah. And I do have
some I do have some lighterhearted ones
too that I that I'll you know I mean I
the thing is is like I've only put out I
I'm a little funny about like rel like
God I don't know how many songs I have
written that I will probably never do
anything with. Like I mean probably at
least 20 or 30 of them that are just
like they're just not I just don't know
why I don't want to put them out but
just What does it look like? What do you
have like a notebook with ideas or do
you mean you have like little videos of
halfbaked songs? Yeah, I've got my old
phone. Well, like even just that old
phone that I recorded all the stuff for
Tik Tok and all on it's got loads of
like little just like the way that
Richmond one was where it was like in
the bathroom facing the and I had like
that, you know, that's all that even
that one I showed you on there. It had
been sitting on my phone probably a
couple months before it that's why I
said I have too many unfinished songs.
It's exactly what I meant. I've got all
these little snippets of things like a
little blip here or there. But the
writing process is well it's a lot
different than I thought most people
write cuz like in
the there's a lot of people that do
these writing rooms and stuff and
they'll have or you know these coowrites
where they'll have people sit down and
they like sit on the couch and smoke a
joint and they're like all right let's
write this song and they just like start
plugging away and they to me that's like
I can't do that. I have to
just It's like almost the OP. It's like
the A lot of times the songs come when
I'm not prepared for them. You like to
be alone.
Well, alone in my head. I could be out
in I could be anywhere in it, right? You
know, some of them I'll just be in the
shower and they'll just like and I'm
like scram because the thing is is like
h it's a certain part of your brain, I
guess, that creates that stuff or picks
it up or does whatever. Uh they come
just they come and they go just as quick
as they come. It's like when you wake
up. It's ex it's exactly like when you
wake up you've had this crazy vivid
dream in your head and you wake up and
it's all right there and then you stop
thinking about it for like half a second
and then it all goes away and you'll
never remember it again. You know like
you can't remember your dreams like
that. It's exactly like that. It's like
it'll be there. It's like perfect. Like
it's all right. It's like it's it's
almost like given to you like just
perfect like parts of it or the whole
thing or whatever. And then you get into
this flow state to where you just like
it's all there in front of you and you
just figure it all out. It's like you've
it's like somehow you've like unlocked
this little part of your brain that you
don't even really know how to get to,
but you just get to and it's all there
and you figure it out. But man, if you
don't get it, it's gone. Like you'll
never you'll never get it again. Like
you'll never even be able to replicate
that song ever again. It's like it'll
just go away. And typically it's like
it's only maybe the first half of the
first verse is what I'll get or it'll be
like the chorus line I'll get and then
I'll build the rest of the song around
that if that makes sense. I guess well
the words or the music or the melody
like what what pops into your head? the
the emotion I guess the words sometimes
it's a phrase like
um like one thing I will do is like
especially out in the country people say
the
craziest people say the craziest things
and so sometimes I'll like jot down a
little bit of some like I will sometimes
on my phone take a little note if
somebody says something real crazy that
I've never heard before and then maybe
one day it'll just pop in my head like
oh you know I don't know it's very
random though like I don't sit and just
try to write songs that's why I haven't
put out
That's why I haven't just been dumping
out. Even though I have been writing a
lot of songs, I haven't just been like
dumping out all this crazy music. I
don't want to force it. I don't want to
do truck beer girl songs or like, you
know, I don't want to force song. I
don't want to like Do you have any truck
beer girl songs? Cuz that that would be
an interesting Yeah. I've got the silly
one about this guy in West Virginia that
um he's like the most he's the most
laid-back cuz I always get in my head
and go over analytical about stuff and
get real serious sometimes about things
and he's like buddy you just got to take
a drag off this thing and he'll you know
he was the one he'd always like like
peer pressure me into taking a hit off a
joint or something and like just try to
cheer and he just didn't take life so
seriously. So I've written this song
about it's called Dr. Dan and it's
about, you know, he's a doctor, but he's
not like a convent he's not like a
conventional doctor. That's a silly one
that I'll put out. So, I do have some
silly ones like that. Um, I have a
couple funny ones that I'll that I'll
never ever ever probably play to the
public, but I did I played him at the
mothership. Um, only because nobody has
their phones in there. But uh when after
right after we did Rogan, I had I got a
chance I got somehow I got connected
with Tom Sigura right after Rogan and we
went over to the mothership and I got to
meet him and I love Adam Mette, you
know, he he was on the thing with Nor
McDonald is how I got introduced to him,
that show Norm McDonald had, but he's
just he's an awesome dude. And so we we
ended up at the Mothership. Uh I think
it was the evening after the Rogan
podcast and um Tom's like, "Well,
they've never had they've never had live
music in here." He's like, "You could be
the first one." And I was like,
"Whatever." And so, uh, we only had one
guitar and I had my guitarist, Joey,
with me. So, Ron White was there. It was
Tom Sigura and then Ron White that
night. And Ron took Joey in his car,
drove him across town to his uh to his
house and grabbed another guitar and
came back. and we got up there and we
did like two really silly songs and then
Richmond in between um in between Tom
set and Ron set and I was like again
that was one of those moments in my life
I was like what like what what is this
like what is this crazy reality I'm in
but I do have some funny I used to cuz a
lot of when I wasn't playing the open
mics you know the well like you know
Brian that you met a lot of my guitar
playing was spent at places like his
house and we were all heavy drinkers and
we were just sitting around at a party
playing or whatever you And so I
definitely like the silly stuff too. But
I was really in my head when we were
talking about being low and what I would
suggest people to do if they're in that
point. But if I was just to like not to
flip this, but just it just popped in my
head. But probably what I would tell
anybody to do if they're like suicidal
and thinking about like if they're to
that point is just to go find some go
find somewhere else like in nature and
go Yeah. That's what you know that's I
kind of missed this step when we were
talking about things but like selling my
house and buying that property and
putting a camper on it and trying to go
into this whole off-grid thing really
like I don't know it it does a lot of
good for you being reconnected to nature
cuz we are a part of it but Oh yeah
that's I've been to the jung I went to
the jungle for that reason. Yeah. Being
out in nature in every way is just is
beautiful. I saw you got some maybe
maybe that's what I need to do is get
some goats. You I saw I got two I can
give you. Get I have more questions. Why
are you giving them so easily? Are there
are there issues I need to know about?
Well, they're goats. Yeah. There's no
there's no free lunch, man. What how
many You got goats. You got You got all
kinds of animals. What's the So, what's
the story of you out in the woods? What
are you doing out there? Uh, no com. No,
I'm just kidding. Just trying to escape
this dystopian nightmare that we're all
living under. Like, yeah, just it was
just a form of escapism, I guess. But,
you know, my well, you got to think in
such a short period of time. My
grandfather grew up like, you know, they
were in a survivalist state, like trying
to make enough money to pay the tax on
their land, growing tobacco, and then
here I am like in this digital world two
generations later. And I'm just like
something's not, you know, I just
felt just felt called to try to figure
out figure all that out and how to get
back into that. There's just a there's
such a purity to man if you raise an
animal and kill it and eat it like and
I'm not talking about like like Ted Nan
style, but just like you know raising
meat birds and pigs and stuff and being
having the ability to put those in the
freezer and cook them for dinner like oh
yeah they taste so much better. But it's
just it feel it's just I don't know how
to describe it but it just brings me
joy. um being able to grow stuff and
even just flowers and everything else.
Just watching stuff that's alive like
that is just such a you know my what
we're doing now is I've bought this
permaculture farm that hadn't been
operational in like six or seven years
and um they did a lot of herbs. They had
a big orchard, blueberries, you know,
but um my dream there is to create this
space that um that's like the optimal
place for humans to go to fix their
mind. So like like what's the animals
and the food that I can have there and
the trees that I can plant and the
certain types of wildlife that I can
bring in and attract like the noises and
the sounds and the smells that are
optimal for a human to be in in order to
like fix whatever it is you know like um
I had the opportunity to meet Robert
Kennedy Jr. early on with all this and
um you know he actually came out to my
property and all we talked and we're
still I think the idea is that we're
going to launch this kind of like
healing center thing out there um once
he get once they get through all the
mess that like they got their hands full
a little bit right now with things but
whether I go that route or not it's like
that's my goal is to basically create a
place that people can go and like and
fix their mind and find the optimal
thing you know we've got laying birds
and meat birds so we have we get our
eggs and meat and And then um we've done
pigs and sheep and goats. And then I'm
going to start with cat. I'm going to
get cattle in the spring. Um so we'll
start doing like wagoo and angus and
playing around with and I want to get
some funny stuff too like um I just
large animals have a lot of you know
there's all these like large animal
therapies out there for mental health
like with vets and stuff. It's just
something it's something really relaxing
and rewarding about being in that space.
What do you uh what do you find out
there in nature that you can't find
anywhere else? You can't find in the in
the uh quote civilized world. Well,
everything in civilization seems so like
everything we've talked about it seems
so
like there's such a level of despair and
unorganization and chaos and just like
and all and all these like terrible
parts of life that seem like so
unstructured and just so uncertain.
But in nature everything is certain.
Everything has a system like even on the
microbial level of soil there's this
like intricate system and you know soil
soil fixes like the bacteria fixes the
soil and like and you can grow certain
types of plants to restore certain types
of nutrients and then that can grow
certain types of trees and then that can
bring in certain types of birds and it's
like this whole big nature is just this
whole big beautiful system you know like
earth is just such an intricate complex
system that is structured and although
there is chaos us. There's literal
tornadoes, you know, like the metaphor
we were using earlier, like there are
literal tornadoes in nature and other
things, but there's there's a piece
about observing the structure there. And
to me, it like it just helps it helps
remind and restore my faith that there
is something bigger than me that like
Yeah. And there's a spiritual side to it
that I don't know that I can really
correctly articulate, but man, sitting
out in the woods with some creek flowing
by you and just sitting in stillness
like where you you don't hear anything.
There's no traffic from a road. There's
no, you know, you're just you're just
there in stillness and just watching
watching the earth do its thing. Just
I've gotten a chance to spend a day and
a night alone in deep in the Amazon
jungle. That's like my dream, man. God,
you basically take the woods and the and
the creek and the quiet. Let's put that
like a three on a scale of 1 to 10. The
Amazon jungle is like an 11 because
you're not just listening to the creek.
You're listening to like a lot of
different species of animal having sex
or or trying to kill each other and
you're just like birds, monkeys, just
everything. And the the the the floor
full of insects. Yeah. bigger kinds of
ants murdering smaller kinds of ants.
It's an orchestra of of insects, but
there it's quiet in the sense that
there's no machinery. The the really
dark thing about the Amazon rainforest
that sometimes depending on where you
are, you'll sometimes hear in the
distance the sound of a chainsaw. You'll
hear like Yeah. It just and it pierces
Yeah. the day because like there's just
no machinery anywhere around. But once
you hear it, it's in, you know, it is
like this
undeniable symbol of uh what human
civilization does to nature. It pains me
seeing woods getting knocked down and
residential residential subdivisions
taking their place. Like this like the
monkey part of my brain wants to just go
burn it all down. Like it's just like
not good. Like I don't know. I just
instinctually observe it as being not
good. And I don't know exactly how to
describe it, but I'm with you. Like I um
that was like I said, that's why I felt
so compelled. I mean, we had I had this
little house that I had maybe a little
bit of equity in and I it was in 2019
and the housing market was up and I was
like I sold our little house and got
that I was able to find 92 acres for
like 1,100 an acre. And so I still had
to finance it, but it was at least like
within my barely within
my and so that's what we did. We had a
you know I was paying 600 a month on the
land and I bought a little camper for
for $750 off this hunt club in Waverly,
Virginia and drug it up there and that's
that's what we had and
like went and bought a little I got a
little K Cabota tractor for 0% financing
and was like cutting like this property
was a mile off the road so I had to cut
basically like recut in old logging road
and stuff and you want to talk about
putting a strain on your marriage
that'll do it buddy is selling your
selling your modest little rancher and
doing that. But man, I was that's when I
really started to live. And I think
probably my that was like the beginning
point of the restoration of of of me,
you know, and I feel bad that a lot of
people just don't even know what that's
like to be on a farm or be out in
nature. And I can't imagine just living
in a suburb or a city your whole life
and never getting to experience that.
You know, it's good that we have all
this technology is great and like the
the science and the innovation is
important and even the fact that you can
go on YouTube and look how look up how
to do almost anything is important. It's
just
that there isn't a clear definitive line
between what's beneficial and
educational and what's predatory and
harmful. And so it's like it happens to
me all the time, but I could go on
YouTube and look up how to change the
brake shoes on my truck or something and
if I click on a short of somebody doing
it, I automatically like I automatically
go to the next video and I may be three
or four videos deep before I catch I'm
watching like you know some lady throw a
pie at somebody and then pretty soon I'm
like wait I'm changing my break. That's
the only issue that I have. You're just
doom scrolling and it
it it does something to your mind. And
it just completely takes the humanity
away. Yeah. It's it's it's it's really
horrible. Like that dopamine thing does
something to my mind that I hate which
really is the opposite of nature. Like
the feeling I remember being out in
nature and not just a hike. A hike is
good, but like for prolonged periods of
time, several days away from the
internet, away from all that. What is
that? I don't know what that is. But I
don't like
what ex Twitter are doing. I don't like
what Instagram is doing. Whatever that
is, I don't think that's good for the
soul. Yeah, it's emulating things that
we need to be healthy humans, but it's
just like feeding it visually and and
audibly to us, but it's not giving us
the it's giving us the instant
gratification of it, but it's not giving
us the long-term pleasure or fulfillment
of it. Like I said, like, and the beauty
is we're in this weird period in time.
like it's a breath of time that we're in
where where we are able to conceptualize
and observe what life was like in that
transition point that's got us up till
now and we also have the because in
order for all this to to continue to
evolve like in or like even with AI like
it needs us more than we need it right
now still for a very short period of
time but we have access to nearly all
the information that the world has
theoretically but we also still have the
perception and the the memory of what
life was like before it. And so this is
like a very short window of time, like a
breath of time where I
think we can find a way to like
incorporate this into normal life. But I
think like if that breath leaves us like
I don't know I think it's irrever you
know I believe that I truly believe it
is irreversible and I think like and
that's just going to be the end of us
and and it and it could take two or
three more generations to get to that
point. But like I I think like why don't
we find people that are way smarter than
me and and look at all the things that
trend on social media like the videos
that everybody watches. Like I don't
know what it is. If it's woodsplitting
and plumbing and blacksmithing and doing
something with like let's find all the
things that people are attracted to
online that they obviously are like
interested in and just figure out a way
to have them in real life for people to
immerse themselves in. Yeah. I mean it's
a transitionary state and I one of one
of the responsibilities I take very
seriously cuz I agree with you is I
tried to pierce the bubble that is San
Francisco that is the Silicon Valley
that is the people that build these
technologies they they often live a bit
in a bubble. Yeah. That said the people
that criticize tech folks also live in a
bubble. Yeah. and to sort of first of
all piercing bubbles in general is good
for people to to get along to understand
each other because uh people that say
all technology is evil unfortunately
techn even if that's true which I don't
think it is uh you it's coming uh it's
going to be built and so you have to
figure out how to do it in a way that
preserves our humanity that that doesn't
drag us into this black hole of like
just maximizing engagement maximizing
this dopamine thing where where instead
of reading Dusty, which I should be
doing, I'm looking at some girl doing
shaking her ass on Instagram and then
feeling horrible about myself 5 minutes
later. Uh that at scale is what seems to
be happening. And so like reminding
ourselves that this is not the way to
steer human civilization to progress to
flourishing. The problem is is I think
we're wasting a lot of our our
bandwidth. like a lot of the like we
only have so many minutes in the day to
even use our brains and our brains can
only do but so much in a day anyway and
when we're wasting any of it on just
that it's like the pro it's like I I see
it in my own professional opinion as the
world is becoming just a little more in
the last decade or two as the world
becomes a little more dreary and dark
and more problems happen and city
streets become more littered and jobs
are like all these kind of problems that
we that we all argue about all the time
as they become more prevalent. It's like
the internet and and just the visuals of
the internet become so much more
immersive and video games are so much
more everything's so much better here.
Everything's improving at lightning
speed in technology and it's degrading
in society and in the real world and
somehow there's got to there's got to be
a way to find a balance there. But right
now it seems like as technology becomes
more immersive and addictive and and
interactive, you know, like the way
these algorithms like feed us exactly
what we want and there's so much
psychology and just so much research
that goes into making them as addictive
as possible. It's like the real world
kind of sucks. Like you know, cities
that were beautiful and thriving are now
falling apart like and and and have all
kinds of problems that are being
unressed and lack of leader. It's like
there's got to be some kind of weight.
But it's and so it's easy for us to feel
more and more inclined to escape into
the digital realm because the digital
realm is becoming more fun while real
life is becoming less fun. And there's
got to be some kind of way to balance
between the two. I'm with you. I'm not
against technology at all. I think um
evil most certainly existed long before
there were computers like and and in
even more treacherous ways like now we
have the ability to do we're like I said
we're in a very we're in a very
temporary state right now in 2025 where
we have access where the general public
has access to basically all the
information there is and artificial
intelligence and just immense am and the
ability that like a guy can just set a
bunch of cameras up and start doing
podcasts and have just the like even
just the fact that this that platform
could be created is like immensely
powerful. It never probably never
existed in world history up until now.
But we also still have the problem is is
if we just keep going without being
careful about about losing the real
world aspect of it is that
like at some point we're just going to
get so lost and so immersed in the
space. We're not even going to know what
we're we're not even going to know what
we're missing out on. You know, all
there's going to be is girls on
Instagram. Like all there's going to be
is that. Yeah. I've been trying to
figure it all out. I I just did a super
long podcast with uh Tim Sweeney, the
CEO of Epic Games, who created Fortnite.
He created Unreal Engine. A lot of
interesting video games, like
revolutionary video games. So, I don't
know if you know, but Fortnite is this
gigantic video game where people go into
a into an online world and they shoot
stuff. It's fun. It's it's not like Call
of Duty intense militaristic like raw
real kind of shooting. It's more fun
shooting at each other. But, you know,
at first I was skeptical like, is that a
good way to have to hang out with
friends, but then I got to do it with
people that I'm actually friends with in
physical reality. Yeah. And you get to
hear each other's voice and you just
talk and talk shit about each other
together. It's basically a phone call,
honestly, with some visuals. You're not
It's not about the visuals, it's about
the phone call. And it just makes it a
little more convenient to connect
regularly. Yeah. But I think you do need
to remember that all of that only works
if you're consistently returning to
physical reality,
you know. Um, in this case, like taking
the quote unquote
uh guy trip, not the Brokeback Mountain
style, but just friends, you know, just
friends, a trip out in nature together,
like like dudes on a hunting trip or or
just fishing or just hanging out in
physical reality together. It's really a
fun like we should not forget the
importance of that. You talked earlier
about loneliness. I think that got
brought up at some point, but I do think
that's like a big that's a problem
that's caused a lot of our symptoms is
that we are all like very lonely even
though we are all we all seem to be so
well connected digitally. We are all so
lonely. You got to think I mean Modern
Warfare 2 was a big thing. I was I was
supposed to been in class of 2010. So
you can think like when I was in
whatever grade, eighth grade or
whatever, Call of Duty was like the
thing, you know? I I've certainly like
trust me I'm not saying that I I'm right
in this space of digital immersion with
anybody else like I've I've I've been
there and seen it and done you know like
but I I've wasted who knows how many
hundreds of hours on Modern Warfare 2
and like I really built some great
friendships from it you know like I
there's there's a place for all that
stuff it's just
like we ha like there is just this we
have this innate responsibility to like
to again it just goes back to this goes
back to talking about our founding
fathers and the way this country was
created and the importance and the v
like the importance of of what it did
for the world. Um you know and my my
understanding is that it was the first
it was the first time ever that people
got together and agreed that like you
said every man was equal because they
were created in the image of God. They
had unaliable rights that no government
could take away from them. And that's
really important like we there won't be
Fortnite if we don't worry about that.
And it and honestly like just the
collapsing in our structure with the
mental health with our youth and the
suicide rates with our blueco collar
workers and all these kind of things
we've touched and talked about like th
those are all just things we just need
more time together in real life to fix
those problems. Those are just things,
like I said, I make the joke, but like
like there's never been one argument
that I've there's never been one dispute
with my wife that I've been able to
figure out how to fix through a text
message or like it takes it takes being
in person with people and and like
having human connection to fix any
problem and heal anything, you know? And
so it's difficult. It's like I don't
it's not anybody's fault that we're like
that. We're not even able to really get
to know each other and understand each
other through the internet. like we
almost have to be together in person to
even just get each other's point of view
and perspectives on things and you know
yeah fuck the division that the internet
creates honestly like the left and the
right is is been it's been kind of a
nightmare for me just to watch cuz I see
the very simple reality that we're in it
together and that there's a lot more
commonality between people. It seems
cliche to say, but it's like now that
needs to be
said more than ever because it when you
look on X, it feels like everybody's
divided, but we're not. Well, and people
are always going to think differently,
too. like just in our structure and the
way we you know again it's like that it
goes back to that Jordan Peterson
lecture about I think in maps of meaning
where he talks about people who think
more conservatively or more liberally
about things like it's been applied to
politics but it is more it's based more
in psychology than anything like some
people are going to have some people are
going to think more inside the box and
some people are going to think more
outside the box but we have to have both
in order to have a healthy society like
oh and also the the thing that bothers
me your song Richmond north of Richmond
a lot of people so a pretty even split
people on the left and the right in
terms of uh friends of mine and sadly
they've
drifted to towards the extremes a bit
uh those on the left definitely have
developed a case of uh Trump derangement
syndrome uh those on the right seem to
think that every person on the left is a
kind of radical leftist it's it's it's
like hilarious to listen to to people
talk. It's like everybody's lost their
mind. It feels like, but also on top of
that, people on the right see Trump as
uh as this savior, as this figure who is
who could do no wrong, who's going to
restore freedom in America and all, you
know, you can do a full list of really
positive things. And to me, he's yet
another rich man, north of Richmond,
Biden, Trump, it's all the same thing.
Now, some might be able to do more good
than others, but ultimately they're in
positions of power, and power corrupts.
And those in in those
positions often forget about the
everyday person, the working class, and
they leave them behind ultimately uh
serve the people that are close to them,
and sometimes serve themselves to
maintain power, to grow their power. I
think the good thing you can say about
them is they and I could say that about
both Donald Trump and Joe Biden
uh is that they really love their
family. As I could say that one of the
things that I love about both people is
that they genuinely love their family.
And like it was always heartwarming to
me to see how much Joe Biden loves his
family. Yeah. Like and and honestly like
just do anything for his family. And
this the same is true for Trump. And
that just reminds you that they're human
beings. And yeah, all that to say is
like we need to see the humanity in each
of
us. Uh and to some degree always
distrust the people in power. the power
that people have only exists because we
allow it, whether willingly or just
through our own negligence. But I think
that's the important thing is
like, like I said, there's always more
of us than there will be of them.
There's always more there's always more
nobodies than there ever will be people
at the top. We just have to figure out
what to do with that and how to and I
think this is, like I said, a short
window of time to to where we can still
figure that out. You know, I got to ask
you about something before I forget. I
think I saw on Instagram you talked
about a three-legged cat. Is that a real
thing? What's the story behind the
three-legged cat? The reason I want to
ask you that, first of all, I want to
hear the story. And second of all, I
want to read to you uh one of my
favorite Bicoski poems afterwards. I
bought another cat. All right. What's
the story? I had this cat lady neighbor
who's a real sweet lady, but
um older lady lives in a trailer, single
wide trailer, has probably got I don't
know 30 or 40 cats that she feeds at her
house. Nice. It was a rainy Saturday
morning. It was pouring down rain. It
was going to be like it was like 8:00 in
the morning on Saturday. It was going to
be a great day. I was going to And then
I hear this lady yelling, "There's this
cat stuck in my car." And she's all
freaking out and don't know what to do.
And like I said, my wife's a veterary
technician or whatever, so she's got a
little bit more sense about animals than
any of us. But we go over there and the
lady's tried to start her car and
there's this kitten that is was up under
the hood and she started the car and the
cat basically it ri it it basically
almost ripped its whole front leg off
already. There was just a little bit
still attached like some tendon or
whatever, but the the leg was like
wrapped up under the water pump like the
pulley of the water pump. Yeah. Knock
the bell off. There was no way to get
there was no way to save this leg on
this cat. It was like and but the cat
was like pinned upside down. And so we
ended up grabbing a we asked the lady if
she had like a knife in the house. So
she gave us this like terrible looking
knife, but it's all that we had, you
know, I was like we were trying to get
this done. So yeah, my wife was the one
that did it, but we like got the rest of
the stuff cut and got the cat out. And
um and I don't know I just
like to spend like however I was like
over a grand we spent giving like
getting this cat's like getting it
properly sutured or whatever to where
the cat could have a healthy recovery
and all but I'm one of those type of
people like I'm not going to I couldn't
just let this little I'm not going to go
they were going to just go put the cat
down or whatever the lady you know. So
yeah it's my I named her hop. So that's
my little cat and it hops around and but
it was one of those things where
uh yeah I don't know I great example
with animals. I guess it's the same way
with people. I just always see the best
and I just couldn't Yeah. I mean that's
one of the most amazing things about
humans. It's it's
irrational to spend that much money on
this cat, right? Because there's so many
other cats that are suffering and dying
and so on. But that's what makes humans
really special. We see that the the the
the the person or the creature suffering
in front of us and we're we're willing
to move mountains to save that person.
Like it's irrational. Maybe it doesn't
make sense because the allocation of
money and effort might not be correct,
whatever. Uh we just don't give a shit.
The reason that we're willing to do it
for a cat, like I said, it's just like
the thing with the dogs about giving the
dogs your medication but not yourself.
So we see all the flaws and all the
problems and the all the disagreements
and all the anger we have with each
other just like you said your friends on
the right and the left and stuff and
like we could show that kind of
compassion and we do I mean humanity
does from time to time show that kind of
comp but we could show that kind of like
just undeserved
just
just love you know to each other too
like and
love is like it's funny you know you
talked about how both of those
presidents you could say they at least
love their family. But love is like I
think everyone's capable of love. It's
probably the most powerful thing there
is even beyond hate. I think is you know
like but it is crazy with it's so it
comes out of us so easily with animals
because they to us they're in they're
just these innocent little lives. We
don't have anything against them you
know like they don't have they don't
they don't they don't talk. They don't
have political views. They don't they're
just little creatures. But the reality
is is we're all just we're all just
creatures like that, you know? We do
that with human children. Yeah. But we
don't do it enough with adults who are
also kinds of children. They're still
we're still like we're still fucking
lost in this world. Uh so I got to ask I
got to I got to read you this. It's got
to be one of my favorite poems. It's
called The History of One Tough
Motherfucker by Charles Bukowski. And
people should go look at videos. Well,
there's videos of Bukauski doing
interviews with a
cat by his side, and that's the cat he's
talking about. All right, it goes like
this. He came to the door one night,
wet, thin, beaten, and terrorized. A
white, crosseyed, tailless cat. I took
him in and fed him, and he stayed. Grew
to trust me until a friend drove up the
driveway and ran him over. I took what
was left to a vet who said, "Not much
chance. Give him these pills. His
backbone is crushed." But it was crushed
before and somehow mended. If he lives,
he'll never walk. Look at these X-rays.
He's been shot. Look here. The pellets
are still there. Also, he once had a
tail. Somebody cut it
off. I took the cat back. It was a hot
summer, one of the hottest in decades. I
put him on the bathroom floor, gave him
water and pills. He wouldn't eat. He
wouldn't touch the water. I dipped my
finger into it and wet his mouth and I
talked to him. I didn't go anywhere. I
put in a lot of bathroom time and talked
to him and gently touched him and he
looked back at me with those pale blue
crossed eyes. And as the days went by,
he made his first move, dragging himself
forward by his front legs. The rear ones
wouldn't work. He made it to the litter
box, crawled over and in. It was like
the trumpet of possible victory blowing
in that bathroom and into the city. I
related to that cat. I had it bad. Not
that bad, but bad enough. One morning,
he got up, stood up, fell back down, and
just looked at me. "You can make it," I
said to him. He kept trying, getting up,
falling down. Finally, he walked a few
steps. He was like a drunk. The rear
legs just didn't want to do it. And he
fell again. Rested, then got up. You
know the rest. Now he's better than
ever. Crosseyed, almost toothless. But
the grace is back. And that look in his
eyes never left. And now sometimes I'm
interviewed. They want to hear about
life and literature. And I get drunk and
hold up my crosseyed shot run over
detailed cat and I say, "Look, look at
this." But they don't understand. They
say something like, "Uh, you say you've
been influenced by Seline?" No. I hold
the cat up. Influenced by what happens,
by things like this, by this? By this? I
shake the cat. Hold him up in the smoky
and drunken light. He's relaxed. He
knows. It's then that the interviews
end. Although I am proud sometimes when
I see the pictures later and there I am
and there's the cat and we are
photographed together. He too knows it's
bullshit. But that somehow it all
helps. So when you posted about the the
three-legged cat, there you go. And I I
I I think of your music and your life
story in the same way. It's just been
through some shit. Just like Bukowski.
Neither of you two have been through
what that cat's been through. But you
know, that's kind of life. That's what
it's all about. Uh I was wondering if
you could uh play a couple songs. Sure.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. Do you want to
take a break or No. Um No, I'm good. It
might we might take a break just just
for me to get this figured out. But
bathroom and break real quick. Of
course. Yeah.
Where is Where is the guitar? Like where
No, like positionally, I think. Yeah, I
think this will be
fine. So ghetto.
call Draven and be like,
"Help." Well, if you I guess I'll do um
if I was going to do anything on here
from the older songs that that was
relatable to everything we've talked
about, it it probably be I Want to Go
Home. Sounds good.
[Music]
Well, if it weren't for my old dogs and
the good Lord, they'd have me strung up
in the psych ward. Cuz every day living
in this new world is one too many days
to me. Son, we're on the
brink of the next world war. And I don't
think nobody's praying no more. And I
ain't saying I know it for sure. I'm
just down on my knees begging the Lord,
take me home.
I want to go
home. I don't know which road to go.
It's been so
long. I just know I didn't used to wake
up feeling this way. Cursing
myself every damn day. People have
really gone and lost their way. They all
just do what the TV say. I want to go
home. Four
generations farming the ground. grandson
sells it to a man out of town. And two
weeks later, the trees go down. Only got
concrete growing around. And I want to
go
home. I want to go
home. I don't know which road to go.
It's been so
long. I'll just know I didn't used to
wake up feeling this way. Cursing
myself every damn day. There's always
some kind of bill to pay. People just
doing what the rich man say. I want to
go home.
[Music]
Well, if it weren't for my old dogs and
the good Lord, well, they'd have me
strung up in the sideboard.
[Music]
That's probably one of the first I don't
know. It's not the first song I wrote,
but one of them. What a song, man. What
a song. What a song. What's the story of
that guitar? Well, the guy who made this
like saved my butt cuz everything blew
up and I was playing that little Gretch
resonator that's in all the original
videos and my my wife had got me that
off of Amazon I think or something for
like three or 4 hund bucks. It's like a
just an entry level like import little
Gretch and the pickup never would work
right in it. So, this string would
wouldn't work when you plugged it in.
Mhm. So, here we are. Everything happens
all at once and we're trying to do these
shows and
like, you know, I think the biggest one
I did, so basically what I ended up
having to do was go I bought one of
these suction cup rigs that sticks right
here and the mic goes down under here to
pick that string up. And I played like
we played like a I think the biggest
show I did with it was like 10,000
people. But it was enough to where I
couldn't be doing a $300 guitar with a
with a rigged up thing on it anymore. It
just wasn't going to work. So, this guy
reached out and um Gretch wouldn't help
me with my Gret like you know there's no
way to really get a hold of them because
they're such a big company at the I I
finally did get a hold of Diane Gretch
and she's like really nice and so it's
nothing personal against Gretch. It's
just at the time I couldn't get a hold
of them. I figured I would have been
able to cuz like everywhere sold out of
those that Gretch model when the song
blew up, you know, like it was a real
pop but that I couldn't get a hold of
him. So, this guy, Beard Guitar, Paul
Beard in Maryland, he reached out, fixed
my Gretch, and then um gave me one of
these and made it with a but it's all
handmade and all. It's
like, yeah, you can like whack somebody
over the head with it. Pretty good.
Yeah, it's nice and heavy. But yeah, he
makes them all by hand. Uh nice little
familyowned place. And I know nothing
about resonated guitars. Is that like
uh do you play regular acoustic? Yeah,
it's just basically a regular acoustic.
It's just a full step down is the only
difference. I've just got it tuned all
the way down. Is that it? Because
there's also like
the whole vibe to it. Oh, yeah. Well,
the body's different. So, you can see
it's got like a it's got like a solid,
you know, instead of it being a hollow
body, like an acoustic, it's got that it
almost looks like a hub cap. That black
all the cord that's all the same. It's
just Yeah, it's just the same. Yeah. I I
wouldn't be smart enough to play
anything special like it's just a
regular old guitar. I don't know.
There's a different vibe to it. Yeah.
Well, I like that. cooler. Well, the old
I'm real I'm real fond of like the older
music like
um so like where all my family's from.
So my dad was adopted so I don't have
any like Lunsford's not really even a
real last name to me. They're all just
it was just my grandparents that adopted
my dad. So all of my family's Engle is
like Ning GLE E that's like my real
that's on my mom's side of my family and
um they're all from this place about 20
miles from where like the Carter family
was from. So all that old
Virginia like kind of bluegrass folk
music and stuff and so I I was just
always attracted to that. And so that's
I I like the I like the resonator a full
step down because it kind to me it kind
of gives it that old sound like um you
know a lot of the instruments back then
had like bad dull strings and they were
older and they were out of tune a little
bit and stuff and I just I listen to a
lot of that type of music. So I like I
like the strings being a little out of
tune and dull and not everything and
just that. Yeah, that's why I was so
attracted to it. plus like some of the
old blues players like you know playing
the Dough Bro and stuff. But that was my
that's why I wanted to get the resonator
was just cuz that old I mean every
that's even why like you know I had to
use my grandpa's name as an alias but
that Oliver Anthony music is really
supposed to represent like old music
from like 1930s Virginia or something
like you know like it's kind of got that
type of feel to it or at least in in its
core you know it feels like from another
time but it also feels timeless. It's
also that my music catalog is so limited
like of what I listen to that a lot of
what's in my head like as you think
about when you're writing songs and like
coming up with chord progressions and
stuff you whether you realize it or not
it's all being influenced off of other
songs. So when you only have a lot of
older music and like some a little bit
of metal and stuff in there. It's like
there's not really a whole lot. It's
like that you know it's kind of going to
sound that way I guess just in anyway
because that's what's in your head
already.
So, you're going to go out there a
little bit this
year. What are what are some things
you're looking forward to? You're going
to travel a bit. You're going to play a
bit. The idea is is to go to a town like
let's just use Iowa as an example.
Instead of in instead of the big city in
Iowa playing at the venue where
everybody books, let's find a farm field
45 minutes outside of that big city.
Figure out the ingress, egress, the
security. you find a good promoter that
can like a show organizer basically that
has experience to where it's still it's
still professional and it's done
correctly but establish like a new venue
space that can't be that can't be put
under contract by a monopoly that any
artist can go play like without like if
if all these musicians are sick of
Ticket Master and Live Nation then let's
just let's just start playing in fields
and on main streets and set these venues
up and establish them correctly and
professionally to where they exist as
their own space and then and then
imagine the economic impact that would
provide to a town that otherwise would
never h like and imagine what it you you
want to talk about trying to give
bluecollar people like some hope or give
them some relatability or do anything
for them like bring a big band to their
town that they would otherwise have to
drive an hour and a half somewhere to
see and couldn't even afford the tickets
to start with. Like my tour last year,
pretty much every show we did that was
mine had a $25 ticket option and
everybody scoffed at that. And I just I
was basically like made fun of for that
by people in the professional space.
Even people I was working with, they
just thought it was so stupid. But you
know what? There were people at my shows
that came up and the kids were wearing
hand-me-down clothes and and like you
could tell they didn't have any money
and they and they said it meant a lot to
them that they could come and that there
was a $25 option. And so, and I'll
continue to do these shows like this to
where any band that wants to come play
the show, all their expenses are
covered. Um, and I'm sure there's some
kind of tax writeoff component to them
for them, but basically they can come
in, do the show, help bring in a crowd.
Like, I'm taking the risk setting the
venue up and establishing it. The venue
will be owned or managed by either the
town or the farm or whatever, but it's
it's it'll be in a nonprofit. And then
that that space will always exist for
people to rent. And the idea is it's
like, man, imagine if I did if I could
do 20 of these a year, even if that's
even if that's all I can get done, like
that's 20 places that will always have
music and we'll always have a center
where people can go like and build this
sense of community. We talked about like
it's almost like a sanctuary, if you
want to call it that, but it's like a
it's just a space that can't be
perverted by by corporate America and
just a place where people can go and
like do all these things that we want to
do.
Um, what are you excited for this year?
Obviously, you're going to travel
overseas and you got sounds like you got
some some other cool stuff you're going
to do. Yeah, I'm going to see uh I'm
going to see some world leaders.
Hopefully, not end up in prison
anywhere. Um, part part of that honestly
I'm excited, you know, like India to see
the same humans but in very different
parts of the world. M I'm not a travel
guy, but I love seeing humans that
there's like a lot of us humans all over
the place and they're very different and
they have funny accents and just funny
way of being, you know, so I'm excited
to take it all in cuz I fundamentally
love people. Yeah, man. Like I I uh I
would definitely say if you're ever up
if you're ever over towards Virginia or
West Virginia, either one there, like
yeah, it'd be cool to spend a couple
days out in the woods or a day out in
the woods and do I I haven't really I
was I'm really new to the whole
psilocybin thing, but I have tried a few
smaller doses of it actually to help
with being up on stage and all and um
it's an interesting thing, but it's
great. Yeah, the dog definitely the dogs
and the woods part. I got you on that.
Oh, I would love to join in. I mean,
I've I've I've taken mushrooms a few
times. And listen, I usually just love
everything anyway, but with mushrooms,
you just love it a little bit more.
Like, especially out in nature, but I'm
look out in nature. I'm just in awe of
how incredibly beautiful it is. And just
I could stare at a
tree for hours. And then you take
mushrooms and like that tree starts like
having some more dynamism to it. So,
it's just a little boost. But like,
yeah, I get into this crazy, like I
said, it's only been a handful of times
because I've
I don't know. It's one of those things
where it's I'm It's still a little
unfamiliar to me, but
like like talking about trees and
psilocybin, you know, you think about
you start to look in those trees and you
think
like in their relative perspective of
time, you know, cuz they're constantly
moving around and growing and doing all
these things. And you think about like
in their perspective maybe we're just
we're just moving way faster than their
perception and they're they're moving at
just a normal speed. I don't it's just
you get into all these crazy trains of
thought when you sit out in the woods on
that stuff. But 100% man. I mean like
maybe that's the history of uh life. I
mean humans will have some chance of
destroying 95 99% of the population with
nuclear weapons. And the trees will
remain and they will reconstruct the
environment of Earth and help the the
few humans that remain to survive. And
it'll be the fucking trees that we'd be
grateful for. Their actual
deep ancient
uh
wisdom. So maybe they're the intelligent
ones. Maybe we are the idiots. When
you're out in nature like that and just
reading about just looking at and
studying the way all those systems work
with soil and trees and animals and how
it all just integrates in together so
perfectly, it does give you some sense
of peace that maybe there is some there
is some system at place that's out of
our hands that can just help us with our
fa our faults and our repercussions. And
again, like for me, just
um yeah, I think just being out there,
especially now that now looking at it
through the lens of of God, of their,
you know, of of God, it helps. There's
I've found no greater peace than just
being out in the woods and and praying
or just trying to focus my mind on on
that. Like I But yeah, I would love for
you to come out there sometime and I'm
100% will and visit. Um, see like
feeling peaceful out in Virginia in the
woods is easy. Try doing it in the
Amazon jungle when a giant Oh, I'd love
and just bites you. Dude, I would do
anything to go to the and all the pieces
is is gone. You're like, motherfucker,
what are you what is and then it like a
second one joins in, kills the first
one, and bites you again. And then
you're like, okay, nature is not all
Yeah, it's not. I mean there is uh there
is harmony to it but it part of the
harmony is the violence. Yeah. It's just
the reality it's um sex and violence.
Like I guess that's the thing about it
though is like it has all the same
components of humanity just almost you
know like almost to a comical level. I
mean the real comedy is the monkeys up
in the trees. They're it's like it's
like little humans and they're arguing
and screaming at each other throwing
stuff. getting into fights. It's like
it's like reality TV but like more pure,
more real, more distilled down to his
fundamentals. Like we we are that, you
know? Yeah. We we put on clothes these
days and have fancy words that we say to
each other and look all sexy on
Instagram, but we're the same monkeys,
apes. It's like the old lobsters, you
know?
But it really is true.
like like uh we all we all yeah we're
all on that same kind of same operating
system in a way. Brother, this was a
huge honor. I can't I I don't have the
words to describe how incredible this
was and I think uh it was just fun. It
was really fun talking to you. Total
honor to be able to come on here for me
as well. And um especially just to get
to meet you in real life and see like
you know you are what I you are what I
expected you to be like in a good way.
Like you know you just don't ever like
Yeah. You're just you're a good dude. So
I appreciate what you're doing. I got to
show you the sex dungeon downstairs
where I
where I keep sex slaves. It's very
different. No. Yeah man. All right. Time
to wake up. Let's go back to
reality. Thanks for listening to this
conversation with Oliver Anthony. To
support this podcast, please check out
our sponsors in the description. And
now, let me leave you with some words
from George
Orwell. Political language is designed
to make lies sound truthful and murder
respectable and to give an appearance of
solidity to pure
wind. Thank you for listening and hope
to see you next time.