Kind: captions
Language: en
The following is a conversation with
Oliver Anthony, singer songwriter from
Virginia, who first gained worldwide
fame with his viral hit Rich Men North
of Richmond. He became a voice for many
who are voiceless with his songs
speaking to the struggle of the working
class in modern American life. His legal
name is Christopher Anthony Lansford.
Oliver Anthony was his grandfather's
name. And so Chris used this name as a
dedication to his grandfather and to
1930s Appalachia where his grandfather
was born and raised. Dirt floors, seven
kids, hard times. As Chris says, he's
happy to be called either one, by the
way. I've gotten to know Chris more
since the recording of this
conversation. He truly is, as he appears
online and in his songs, down to earth,
humble, and a good man who deeply feels
the pain of the
downtrodden. This is a Lex Freedman
podcast. To support it, please check out
our sponsors in the description. And
now, dear friends, here's Christopher
Lford, or as many of you know him as
Oliver Anthony.
So, I was texting you uh last night uh
sitting at an open mic listening to a
guy perform Great Balls of Fire. Uh like
I told you, he was giving everything he
got for like five people in the audience
plus me. Well, you were there. I'd been
I'd have been doing it, too, if you were
out there like, "Oh, that's Lex
Freeman." No, man. He was uh this big
dude on a keyboard just everything.
Sweaty, long hair. You could tell like
he was there in his own little world. I
love the courage of that of just giving
it everything. I don't think he wants to
be famous. I don't think he wants
anything in life except to be there and
to play like his heart out. That's why I
love open mics. Like some people still
aspire to be famous when they play open
mics, but some people maybe they've
given up or maybe they never wanted to
be famous. They're just there for the
pure artistry of it. So yeah. And you
said you started out playing open mics.
What at Shady Bars? What was that like?
Well, yeah. Real quick before I forget
to a great example of a of a guy who had
that same mindset and was able to
maintain it really well is this mandolin
player named Johnny Stats in West
Virginia. to me he's one of the best and
he's won all these awards and stuff and
he still works for UPS full-time and
like he could go out and tour with play
man for anybody he wanted to but he but
man when you meet Johnny like you can
tell he's just got this um this joy in
him that I don't think he would have if
he but as far as me with the open mics
um yeah it was just it was a lot of them
were really a lot of them were
embarrassing there was couple I remember
there was times where I'd go up and try
to do I do like one song I get like
halfway through the next song and I'd be
so nervous by that point. I didn't I
couldn't remember any of the words. And
there's a couple times I I remember
there was one time in particular that I
just I just walked off halfway through
the song, put my guitar in the case and
just I just left. I didn't even like
couldn't even stay in there. Just total,
you know, just total freak out. Just
embarrassment. And I never drank in bars
either. Like I'm not a I wasn't really a
social drinker. So I was just there to
try to do the mic. So it was it was kind
of I was a little out of place anyway. I
feel kind of out of place in a bar to
start with. So yeah, this back when you
could smoke in bars. There's a whole
vibe to it. People smoking, drinking and
Yeah, definitely. You know, bombing in a
place like that when the
audience there's like five people and
they're bored. Yeah, there was one like
that. It was in Moka. It wasn't that far
from where I lived. The place is gone
now, but uh it was about as big as the
room we're in here, if that. You know,
like the the ceiling tiles were yellow
from where everybody had smoked in it
since the beginning of time. And but
like Yeah, that was my little spot.
Those little type of spots. You did
covers. What' you play? What was your
go-to back then? It was like uh I don't
know, Fishing in the Dark, Nitty-Gritty
Band or like
um any of those old Hank like Hank Jr.
songs like any of those bar type um
David Allen Co like You Never Call Me By
My Name, any of that kind of stuff. And
I haven't even played any of those in
forever now. But that was any of those
ones where you get people singing along
and stuff. That's what I'd always try to
do, you know. Yeah. That song you
performed, Take Me Home, uh, Country
Road, How's That Go, West Virginia.
Yeah, it's a good song. John Denver was
just uh, one of those guys that it's who
knows where he would have went long term
if he wouldn't have passed, but you know
what's a fun song that I love? I
shouldn't, but I love is uh, what is it
like? Thank God I'm a country boy.
I think that's what I liked about John
Denver was he was a little bit like he
let himself be a little bit corny in the
spirit of like having fun with it. Like
um great example, there's this old older
guy that not a lot of people have heard
of named Roy Clark, but um my farm is
like a mile down the road from Roy
Clark's old farm, but he he used to be
on Hehaw. I don't know if you ever heard
of that old show from like the 60s or
whatever, but crazy dude. He could pick
any instrument up. Like there's videos
on YouTube of him, but he would just sit
there and just pick anything up and just
rip it to death. But he would always
just be real silly about it. He never
had he never took it too never took
himself too seriously. You know, some
people go to the fun place. Some people
go to the dark place. Yeah. It's a you
know, country can do both. You you more
often go to the dark place to to the to
the pain. Yeah. Well, especially some of
the new songs that are coming out that
they'll be probably not I mean, I don't
know what they'll be. I don't know what
is country anymore anyway. I don't know
that many people who listen to the type
of music that I grew up listening to
probably listen to country radio anymore
anyway. Like I think there's there's
quite a lot of people who don't who sort
of disowned that space. You know, in
commercialized country, you only really
get what sells, which and a lot of what
sells isn't necessarily what matters.
Well, you had that whole experience
where they take what you recorded and
polish it, quote unquote, try to make it
perfect and in so doing destroy the soul
of the thing. And so probably that
happens with these big artists. They're
so famous. It's like a machine. And so
what the machine does is it overpolishes
things. And so the
raw like power of the person, the
uniqueness of the person, the soul of
the person is gone if you do that. Yeah.
Well, prof I think professionalism in
like applying the tactic the tactics of
corporate America to anything that is
yeah baseline artistic is not going to
end well. They're all individually
brilliant but together this corporate
speak comes out. Yeah. Just the soul of
the people dissipates. It like
disappears. Why are you all pretending
that like life is not terrible and
beautiful and like you're both scared
shitless and excited and this guy's
going through a divorce. This person
just fell in love. Like you're getting
the intensity of life with this
corporate like 9 to5. Like hi John, it's
great to see you
today. Oh, you too. you as well. You as
well. But when I look at it, I'm like,
why am I whining? I I feel like a
Bukovski type character because like
they're all really nice. They're all
good people, but like something is gone
when you have this corporate machine.
Well, they're they're there to fill a
role contractually. And if they I think
if they bring too many of their human
elements into that, then they jeopardize
losing their sense of security. And it's
all just out of fear. It's out of fear
of losing your job. I mean, it's the
reason why all the songs say Oliver
Anthony and not Christopher Lunford on
them, you know, like it's fear of it's
so difficult to especially now it seems
and I mean, who knows? I didn't I was
never around in the 40s or 50s to work a
job. I'm sure they were probably pretty
miserable back then, but you know, they
talk about now like how difficult it is
like the the impossibility of having a
single family household or anything
else, but like when you find a decent
paying job that you can do without it
just torturing you every day, that's
that's a pretty important thing now, you
know, like and so it it's pretty easy to
just it's pretty easy to kind of turn
yourself into a robot for eight or 10
hours a day out of fear of it's like you
don't want to be yourself too much
because maybe part of yourself isn't
something that's accepted in this like
dystopian nightmare that you go to work
at every day. And so you just got to do
your best to just not step on any toes
or do anything that that makes you stand
out too much, you know? And now it's
like now like when you scroll through
some of these videos of people like the
big even when I was still like when I
was still working my lame job it was
like there was this whole big thing of
people talking about quiet quitting or
something like that where they were just
going to go to work but not really do
anything. But that hurts me so much.
That hurts me when you just stop when
you're there but you're not really
there. That makes me so sad. Yeah. So
then they wonder these companies just
slowly kind of fall apart and
disintegrate because they're so worried
about structure and you know like I mean
god man even in even in America today
our culture has become because so many
big corporations own and manage
everything that we live under like food,
agriculture, healthcare, like social
media it's all in corporate structures
that it's almost like a lot of the
problems we find ourselves in now with
society I think are like it's just
because of it's almost like h corporate
HR has been implemented into our whole
thought process of everything. You know,
it's like um I think that's kind of what
you're touching on though. It's
like it's it's hard to be it's hard to
be a human and be a good little
corporate employee at the same time. Um
and as our whole society moves more into
like becoming a like basically one big
corporation, it's like you don't want to
piss the HR lady off. So, it's a lot
easier for me to just beep boop. We're
all sort of just turn we're all turning
into robots. you know, and that's I've
talked to to great engineers about this.
Jim Keller is a legendary engineer. Elon
Elon Musk is another example that you
need that I don't know what's a nice
term for it, but you need the asshole
because you you want to get to the
ground truth of things to the first
principle of things like how do we
simplify? How do we make it more
efficient? How do we move faster? How do
we get shit done? And that has no place
for this kind polite speak. And then,
you know, other great team members swoop
in and like repair the damage that the
tornado has done. Do you think that's
cuz I'm not I'm not super wellversed
about all this, so I'm probably dumb to
even mention it, but um this guy who's
been helping me with doing a
documentary, uh he's been following me
around since the very first show at the
August of 23. He his background was
doing um promotional videos for Boeing
like for on their new spacecraft to
pitch it to
whoever. And so he was we touched we
touched base a little bit on Boeing and
of course they're having a lot of
problems now it sounds like and he was
comparing that with
SpaceX or with you know like that that I
I think it's that exactly what we
touched on with that thought process of
that sort of dehumanization within
companies. I think that's what
ultimately causes maybe I don't know if
there's a connection there or not but it
seems like Boeing is a very would be
more of that they don't have that
tornado they're very like h like he was
telling me even just with his protocols
and some of the people he worked with
like everything's just very you know
lightly touch everything no one you
don't touch anything too hard so it's
not just HR it's also it's just this
managerial class where it's like Bob
from this department has to schedule a
meeting with John from this department
and Debbie
like they have to have a meeting 2 and
1/2 weeks from now and then there's
paperwork and then that bureaucracy
that's created in the managerial class
just slows everything down. And one of
the things that slowing everything down
does is it really demotivates the people
that are actually doing the shit. Like
the people on the ground, the engineers
that are building stuff. It's again
soul-drenching to like be excited, show
up, and now you hit this wall of
paperwork like you can't you have to
wait for John and Debbie and I forgot
the third guy's name kind of imagined in
my head uh to have a meeting. It just
and then you kind of slow down and you
disappear in terms of that fire, that
passion that's required to create big
things. So yeah, because they don't
believe there's a lack of leadership and
if they don't believe in if they don't
believe in that leadership then why the
hell would they be motivated? I mean I
remember
um a while back watching Jaco Wilnick
talk about a um talk about that when he
was in leadership when he was leading
his guys. I think he mentions it in his
book is probably where I remember seeing
it. Um, one of his books and he talks
about like how important it was for the
people under him in rank to believe in
what he was the actions he was giving
them even if he necessarily didn't agree
with them himself. It was like there
it's really hard to take orders and go
and like to to have human spirit and
especially in something that's
innovative and not if you if you're
working for a company where you just
think everybody's dumb. I mean, I can
certainly relate with that. I mean, God,
that's all and in my old job, that's all
we did was we spent half our day just
talking about how how dumb we thought
everybody was that was above us, you
know? It's like it's easy to fall into
that in the corporate world. And so,
yeah, the morale gets terrible and and
and everyone suffers as a result of it,
you know, like the the people at the top
who are implementing all that
dysfunction suffer and the people at the
bottom. It's like it's not good for
anybody. I had thought now that I'm
doing this that I could escape away from
that. But that exact same mentality and
that dysfunction and that um that
inefficiency like I still battle it
every day. That's why it takes it takes
unique characters to lead the way. Such
unique characters are very much needed
in the music industry to revolutionize
everything. Cut through the bureaucracy,
the bullshit that ultimately is just a
machine that steals money and doesn't
get any anything done really. Uh we'll
talk about it. By the way, all the love
in the world to Jaco. He's great. I've
been going through lots of ups and downs
in life, lots of low points for myself
over the past uh shit, three years
really, but
um uh recently especially. And he always
texts in this in this very high
testosterone way of like of like, you
good, bro? Just checking in. I mean,
he's a good man. He's a good man. He's
obviously an inspiration to millions of
people but also just
um is a good human being himself. So
maybe one sim one thing that we felt
similarly I'm just I I would imagine you
way more than me is just feeling like
like wow I have the ability to influence
or the ability to to to either bring
truth or to improve people's lives or or
you know every word that you say
sometimes matters so much and you're
just like man I'm an idiot like I don't
like I don't know you know like I would
have never guessed I mean we were kind
of talking about that before about like
it would have for guess that it would
have turn that this would have turned
into all this but it's it is a it is a
it is a weight that you bear whether you
really even acknowledge it or not you
know like um yeah and I think is like
you know the the songs you've created
they uh speak to the human condition to
the struggle of uh everyday working
people in a society that has the elites
that try to take advantage of those
working people and You're just speaking
through your music those truths of how
life is. And then that has a huge impact
on a lot of people. That's really
positive. But then you also get attacked
and misrepresented and lied about from
different angles.
And just the turmoil, the intense chaos
of that, it disorients it. It disorients
me like to be attacked by very large
number of people to be lied about to be
just the it because I love people and
just have I have a general optimism
about humanity. It just disorients me
like um it gives me this feeling like I
generally just like you said think of
myself as kind of an idiot not really
knowing what I'm doing. And when a lot
of people tell you that you're correct,
you don't know what you're doing, you
start to like want to hide. You want to
hide from the world, hide from yourself.
And then there's also just the the
chemistry of the brain. It's like you
shake up the brain a little bit. It
starts getting it starts getting weird.
And so it can get on many uh fronts, it
can get real lonely when you're getting
attacked, when you're kind of fucking
things up. in many ways it can get
lonely. Yeah. So it's been so you get a
text from Jo like you good? Yeah. Yeah.
And then I mean I have good friends.
Andrew Huberman's been great. Rogan's
been great. Well, you know you
Lex, however many years ago was in a
different place in society than Lex is
now. And so it's like every conversation
you have or every relationship you have
is inherently different. Even if you
aren't any different. friends that you
had from before maybe or even just new
people you meet, your interactions with
them are going to be a lot different
than if this wasn't a thing. And so it's
like that that can be tricky too at when
you've spent your whole life, you know,
from the time you're three years old and
you're starting to play with other kids
and like developmentally learning like
how to share and how to interact and
you're on the you're playing, you know,
you're playing on the playground with
kids and learning how to like set rules
and boundaries and how to like basically
fit into society and like so you have
this whole learning pattern up until
whatever point in time when when success
happens and then it's like all that
shifts pretty dramatically all, you
know, in a relatively short period of
time. And there so like how do you how
do you think like managing your previous
like previous friendships or your like
you know how has that been tricky for
you or like how does that it's been
tough. I you know I value deep close
long-term friendships and Yeah. But I
mean I have amazing friends but they
certainly do treat me a little
different. They they bust my balls
noticeably less. Yeah. And you need you
need that sometimes. I need I not
sometimes all the time. First of all,
it's how dudes show love is making fun
of each other. At least my friends.
Yeah. Like you know when you watch Man
I'm going to get in trouble but when you
watch like women interact they're often
like really positive towards each other.
Like oh you look great
this watch dudes interact like close
friends. There's just like I mean
busting each other's balls. I'll stop
making fun of each other.
Uh and so yes, that has been a little
bit harder. I I try I try to break those
walls like
but that's why with the famous friends
it's a little bit easier because they
can still like Rogan roasts me non-stop.
So just it's uh and it just feels good.
I just sit there and get made fun of and
it's great. It's great. And I still do
it all the time. I just it's just a
different experience now. But I I'm like
a Goodwill junkie. Like um most of like
most of even my clothes were from
Goodwill, but like I have this I have
this like addiction with buying
paintings from Goodwill. Like the $8
paintings where it looks like somebody
was following along with like a Bob Ross
video and it didn't work out quite
right. Like I like I buy every one of
those. I'll go in there and buy like 10
of And so just even you know anytime you
got into public now it's just like you
know it's going to be a little different
than it was. You know I don't know if
that makes sense or not but Yeah. Yeah.
For sure. I mean, hey, you I'm trying to
deal with it, but all of it when you
talk to world leaders, when you step
into politics a little bit, and you
apparently stepped into politics, even
though you never meant to, you're not a
political
person. That that world is like, what
the fuck? It's very intense, especially
at an intense moment in history in in an
extremely divided country. So, yeah,
like saying that I'm not in politics,
people like, "Well, of course you're in
politics." And I don't know whether I am
or not, but just
um I do think a lot of people in
politics like as far as the people who
sit on the internet all day and argue
about stuff on X or on whatever, you
know, Facebook and all like I do think
their heart is in it for the right
reasons. They observe that there's a lot
of things wrong in the world that they'd
like to see different. It's
just how do you get those people out of
a how do you get those people out of
this 4x4 square and like really like
they're they're entrapped in a in a same
kind of box that the people at Boeing
might be with that struct you know it's
too there it's the tornado metaphor I
mean but it applies in politics too like
that there needs to just be a tornado
through politics and we need to figure
we need to just like lay all this other
stuff aside and just figure out what's
really pissing everybody off what's
really affecting our quality of life. A
lot of times we're arguing over the
symptoms of problems instead of
identifying the problems. If that makes
any sense. I mean that if Jordan
Peterson were here, he would tell us
about fire and how important that is and
burning and like it but it is all the
same. Water and fire and ice metaphor
and there would definitely be a
connection to the Bible and then we
would receive a three-hour lecture and
it's true. But it is it's all true. Like
it's all true. It is all it's all 100%
accurate. Yeah. That's the crazy thing.
But it all ties into that same thing
like you um yeah in politics now it's
almost like there's a rulebook that you
have to follow and if you you can't
agree with this unless you also agree
with that. You know, it's like and maybe
it's like the places the way that we
receive information about what's going
on in the political landscape is always
so biased and it's like the well it's
it's contingent upon this algorithm this
like al algorithmic system that we live
under where we're fed it's like we're
almost fed certain subcate and it's and
it's easy to fall into that because you
don't like hearing things you disagree
with and so it's a lot easier to just
turn the TV on or go on Facebook and
look at whatever page posts things that
you know you're going to consist
consistently agree with every day and
that's not going to challenge the way
you think in any little way, you know,
or or like expand your thinking at all.
It's it's easy to just it's kind of like
a it's a cult-like type of thing. It's
like, you know, here's this is what we
all agree with and if you don't then go
and get, you know, like but it it
doesn't it we're far too complicated for
it to really work that way. Well, this
actually relates to one of my favorite
things in your conversation with Jordan
where you're just where where you're
just shooting a shit about like uh
playing live music and he goes to
Kerkugard. Yeah. She's like Sauron
Kerkugard the
philosopher. I love Jordan so much. I do
too. He just goes to Carl Young Na. Um
and there this idea from Kugar that the
crowd is on truth. So when you there's
elements to the crowd that loses the
humanity and the honesty of a an
individual that makes up the crowd
because the default incentive of the
crowd is to
conform to some kind of narrative. It's
like
a it's like a distributed system that
arrives at a narrative and the narrative
holds control over that crowd as opposed
to the individual humans who are
thinking for themselves and being honest
with their own thoughts and realities
and so on. So that he he was saying that
as a reason from a communication
perspective to speak to individuals in
the crowd not to the crowd. M so from
the performer perspective the moment you
speak to the crowd you're speaking to
the lie that is the crowd according to
sen ko it's pretty hardcore kagard is
pretty hardcore Jordan's pretty hardcore
but that is true I mean but spec but
specifically in my case I mean really it
applies more than it probably does in a
lot of cases with crowds and music you
know talking about Richmond I wasn't
necessarily even excited that Richmond
did as well as it did it was Like in a
way it was almost like alarming that it
did so well, you know, and so those
crowds that show up like maybe they do
like my music, but I also think they're
there for something. There is something
bigger about it. I mean I I wish I would
have done a better job of having people
there at shows to capture some of those
crowds I had in 24. Man, you mean the
size, the intensity? The intensity like
it was revolutionary almost. Song of
revolution. Yeah. I think of redemption
song from Bob Marley. Like that song, it
just connected with people. There's
something there. Well, and so many
people identified different elements.
Like I said, it goes back to when we
were kind of talking when we first got
here, but it was it was crazy how it was
almost like at the beginning with along
with the scrutiny and some of the other
things. It was a lot of different people
like almost fighting over me or fighting
over it like cuz it resonated with
different it it resonated with people
who voted differently than each other
which is which is probably a pretty
terrifying thing if you're if you're in
the business of keeping people divided
and angry at each other. So it, you
know, it was
a, it was one of the fir one of the only
times that I can think where there was
that that much of a sense of unity among
people who otherwise wouldn't. I mean
like I mean I think about 9/11 when I
was a kid. I was in fourth grade, but
God, man, people were just like people
just put everything aside there for a
little while. And it was kind of it was
kind of like there's bigger problems
that just aren't in our face. And if we
man if they're in your face for just for
a second or two, you realize
like it's it's hard to it's hard in your
mind to create a a graph that's got like
all these but you know we argue about a
lot of these problems, but if you were
to really look at them
like if you really to stand back and
look at all the problems we spend time
focusing about on the internet versus
all the things that are affecting us
like that really and probably at our
core even piss us off. It's it's got to
be very disproportionate. And like the
reason it got the reaction it did is
because we all like no matter what it is
that we're upset about or what we think
needs to be different in the world or
our opinions of things or how we're
raised or what our parents taught us,
it's like I think we all feel a little
bit out of control in this new society.
We all feel like we're
probably we probably all feel like we're
falling into this kind of like corporate
power structure where none of us where
we are we all are just robots. We're all
just we're not allowed to be ourselves
and be human almost, you know. And there
was enough people feeling that. I mean,
people on the left feeling like the
people in power fucking over the working
class, people on the right feeling the
exact same with different words assigned
to it. The deep state, you know, fucking
over middle America. Yeah. Whatever the
narratives are. And they're just when
enough of that is
happening again with the corporate
polite speak, there's something about
politeness that's really dangerous. I
feel like there's a lot of politeness in
the Soviet Union.
Yeah. Great example. Yeah. Underneath
that, it's like Chernobyl, uh, which is
this nuclear power plant that melted
down.
Um, I feel like the
bureaucracy needs politeness and
civility.
and paperwork to function. And then
atrocities can happen underneath that.
So everybody, people in power with a
smile on their face can just do horrific
things. Mhm. And then give propaganda
that look, you know, it's rainbows and
sunshine and and unicorns. Yeah. So
people that are rude, I mean, I'm
starting to awaken to this a little bit.
Like you need a little like Tom way says
uh I like my Tom with a little drop of
poison. You need some
like some poison, some some swearing,
some meanness, some bullshit, some like
intensity to shake up a system because
when it uh sort of converges towards
this polite bureaucracy, the atrocities
can happen and hidden away. And what's
probably the most terrifying to me is
that that politeness is just theatrical,
whereas it it emulates the respect that
we would normally give each other in
society if we were healthy and
functional. What was the process of
writing that
song? I mean, it really spoke to the
pain of and anger of millions of people.
So, there's magic there. Was that what
how many how many edits? How many like
lines did you write? Were there any
lines that you were like tormented by,
haunted by, come back? Should I do it
this way or this way or that? Do you Do
you have a I don't know. Do you Can you
pull Tik Tok up on this? So, if you go
to my page, so if you go down chickens,
go Yeah. Go down pre- Richmond, you can
see the original version of Richmond
where I put it up. This is so cool to
see the evolution. There it is. Okay.
So, that's that's if you play that.
That's I have too many unfinished songs.
Yeah. Play that. Click that and play it.
Sell my soul.
724 bullshit so I can sit out
here back home.
And if you read through this, it's so
funny. Everybody's like, "You're about
to blow up."
[Music]
That's all I had. So I had I had just
that. You should probably finish this
one. Might be real
popular. That's a post from a few days
later.
That was in That was in July. Fuck.
That's so inspiring, man. So, that's
what I had. That's so
inspiring. That's what like a couple
weeks before uh you posted the final.
Well, that's all I had ver Yeah, that's
all I had written at that point. Like
that in my mind, that's what that's the
inspiration for the song was that little
bit. And I wrote that just cuz I was on
job sites all day and um you know going
into like all these just terrible places
to work like dealing with different
contractors and stuff. You were talking
about wanting to go and talk to
bluecollar people and all. It's like
that's what I did for work basically for
eight years was build long-term
relationships with people in bluecollar.
I was in the industrial space. So I
would talk sometimes I'd talk to 20
different people a day. You know, when
you sit in a job site trailer and talk
to and talk to a group of dudes like and
you're not there with some news camera,
you're just there as like a random dude.
Like, you hear so much about what really
goes on behind the scenes of of the
structure of what builds what builds
this country and keeps it going. And um
I think that's probably what it was. It
was just a it was how I felt, but also
how I guess a lot of other like you
know, it was just I don't know. It just
seemed like the truth. So, so you jot it
down even to the details like in a
notebook like those words? No, it's
always just on my phone. I would just
keep recording the I would just keep,
you know, like so if you were to go back
to Tik Tok like and look at any of those
original videos.
Um, so like the songs that ended up
charting, let's say like the ones that
were on there that charted with
Richmond, like this I've Got to get
Sober. So, literally, that's a good
song, man. So, literally what I did was
this video I took at my property. This
is my carport where my camper was. And
uh I took this video. I went to some
sketchy virus written MP3 to wave file
or MP4 to wave file transfer thing. I
would rip the audio off of this video,
put this on TikTok, and then put that on
Drokid. And that's the that was the
song. But basically, like this would
this would have been the first time I
played I've Got to Get Sober all the way
through. Like I would just keep writing
it and working on it, writing it and
record myself. And maybe I would record
myself 30 times over the period of like
two months. You know what I mean? Oh,
but it's when you say writing, you mean
in your head, not actually typed out or
written in, right? It was just mostly
just videos over and over. Just videos.
I'm just trying to figure out how to
make it. Yeah. But that's what all these
all these are like the audio file from
all these videos is what's is what ended
up on Spotify and all that. You know
what I mean? This is It's cool to see
these videos before you blew up. So,
this is a good song. You're playing up
guys. So, what what is this at the end?
Yeah. Yeah. These were all
Don't sell your soul, brother. This is
the best music I've heard in a long
time.
That's a comment before you blew up.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think I had about 10,000
followers or something.
What a fucking song. That's a good one.
And you got to think like this was like
that was my
that was when I quit drink. You know
what I mean? Like so
but the troules and
the world that were in knock me back off
my feet. So that's coming from from from
your heart right there.
Just imagine
the thousands of people you helped with
that.
Yeah. But it ain't going to happen
tonight. So pour them down
strong until I
[Music]
drown. And if I wake up
tomorrow, when that sun comes back
around, I'll be wishing I was sober.
It's so crazy how those cicas and stuff
come in.
Like I just felt like it was a god. I
don't know how to like that's just off
my phone. All that stuff's just there,
you know?
and the bowl. They've been saving my
soul from the pain that the world's put
on
me. And Lord, I know that upstairs
there's an old man who cares. And one
day he'll set me
free. I'll go
on the hill. That's a genius of song.
That's genius, brother. That's genius.
It's just crazy to think about.
Yeah. And what's this one right before?
What is this?
Oh, yeah. So, that's like the probably
the
And this is a nice recording. Got it.
Yeah. So, this video got uploaded and
then Draven from RadioWV would have
gotten a hold of me in between this and
that. He watched this and was like,
"Dude, you got" He said, "We gotta
record that one." And that like, so I
didn't have it all, but I just had
whatever was in that video is all I had
written. It was I I think it was just
the chorus and the first verse. Draven
saw that video. I said, "We got to do
this one." Reach out to me to record and
he's like, "Yeah." He's like, "No, we
got to do that one." And I was like,
"Dude, that's all I got." Tell me about
that guy, Draven. He probably is like,
you know, he's probably like my best
friend now. We we hit it off with this
and we're like b we're like brothers now
I guess but you talk about like what
he's doing for country for music in
general for country music for
discovering talent for like he's clearly
sees something in people. Yeah. He's
just this he's a little bit younger than
I am and he's he wrote music and played
and he's got some of his if you look up
Draven Refe. is going to kill me for
even saying this, but he's got some
pretty dude, he can if he was like a pop
singer, he would be like a he can write
the most catchy stuff ever. Um, let's
go. Yeah. So, click on like I don't know
like you go. All right.
That's him. Yeah.
[Music]
Where is this from? 5 years
ago. I was feeling on my way. I was 10
years old, walking underneath the
blanket of West Virginia snow. Then I
walked right by. No trespass sign. Did a
grass look green across property line.
Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
You know, he could probably do if he
does like he could probably be real
famous. Well, he's got a certain look.
that dude will sit there and he'll just
like we'll just be sitting there at like
two in the morning and he'll just all of
a sudden do this little thing and he's
got like the most amazing first part of
this like song or we just started to
co-write together like in the last few
months. So I'm really excited for that.
But if you go to his This is really
funny too. I'm sorry Draven I love you
man. So go to videos and go to oldest
first. This is what's so awesome about
Draven. He was originally working for
this lady who was trying to develop
different types of hair care products,
but he thought the market was too
saturated. So, he was going to get into
beard oil. So, he created
RadioWV as like a fake plug page for his
burly boy beard brand he was working
with. So, like click like if you look at
um Yeah. Like that very first video.
Yeah. It's like it's got all his beard
products and if you look there's a
there's multiple ones like that. Yeah.
So, he started it just to do this beard
thing with and then like I don't know,
he just kind of felt called to like keep
going with it and it and it just sort of
naturally progressed. Yeah, that too is
inspiring. Like you start out one way
and then you discover something real
special. I mean, he's got a he's got an
eye for how to bring out I don't know
what it is like the both the audio side
and the video side. how to bring out the
bus in. He says he just wants it to
sound like the way he likes hearing it,
which kind of makes sense, you know,
like it's kind of in the same way
talking about when we were talking about
setting the cameras up and a
professional would tell you you needed
three lights and you're like, well, I
think it would work with the that he's
just kind of like, well, it'll just work
like this and and do it in a way where
he likes it. Yeah. Just do it for
yourself. He does it cuz he loves it and
that and you can see it shows, you know.
Yeah. You can see it in there. Um, and
there's some good talent like you were
showing me this new lady, Gabriel. Yeah,
she's got it. But not a lot of people
would uh record her doing that song. But
he's like I don't know. It just was
different. I just thought people ought
to hear it. But he's man, it was a
blessing that he came along when he did.
It was like um it really changed both of
our lives. We got to talk about that. So
you posted the the song Rich Men North
of Richmond on August 8th, 2023. I
remember I was at work that day when it
went up. Yeah. So it blew the fuck up
straight to number one on the charts.
tens of millions of views and
listens. Uh, and a few days later on
August 17th, he made a post that I
thought was pretty gangster. I was
beautiful and gangster. Uh, so one one
of the things he said is, "It's been
difficult as I browse through the 50,000
plus messages and emails I've received
in the last week. The stories that have
been shared paint a brutally honest
picture. suicide, addiction,
unemployment, anxiety, depression,
hopelessness, and the list goes on. And
then you went on to write, "People in
the music industry give me blank stairs
when I brush off 8 million dollar
offers. I don't want six tour buses, 15
tractor trailers, and a jet. I don't
want to play stadium shows. I don't want
to be in the spotlight. I wrote the
music I wrote because I was suffering
with mental health and depression.
These songs have connected with millions
of people on such a deep level because
they've been sung by someone feeling the
words in the very moment they were being
sung. No editing, no agent, no bullshit,
just some idiot and his guitar. The
style of music that we should have never
gotten away from in the first place. So,
huge props for that. for walking away
from lucrative multi-million dollar
record deals and I'm sure the money that
was just coming your way. Huge props.
You know, moments happen where you know
the world tests you and
integrity is what you do in those
moments. So, huge props for that. What
was your philosophy? What was your
thinking behind that? It was all those
messages I got. I mean, you can see it
in the comment sections of a lot of the
videos after everything h but people
just like felt this spark like like wow
like maybe we actually have a chance to
like maybe we actually do have some kind
of power you know like those people put
that song there nobody else and like
gave me the opportunity to make even
without sign anything I was still able
to make millions of dollars and have
financial freedom
and like I
just I just felt
like I felt like if I was going to do
anything like that that I'd be I'd be
betraying like I would be taking those
people and and almost betraying them
somehow, you know, like uh like they I
hate the big machine just like everybody
else. And I the last thing I'd want to
do is be is
ever supported or be a part of it. Like
I want to watch it crash and burn, you
know? Like see this is the really
important thing is whether it was
betrayal or not, we'll never know. But
you felt like that it was. And to have
the integrity to walk away from the bag
of money when you felt that way, that's
fucking epic. It was also, you got to
think a couple months before this, like,
of course, I had, you know, I had a wife
and kids that I loved and like I had a
lot of really important things to live
for, but I didn't have a whole lot to
lose. Like, like none of this was even
really real. Like it I didn't care about
that. like I didn't care to lose this
just as quick as I got it. Like this
didn't this was this didn't mean
anything to me. It just meant something
to me that like that I could do
something for like you know
you it's like even if I'm not smart
enough to figure out how to fix some of
my own problems in my life, the fact
that I felt like I could help fix
somebody else's like that meant a hell
of a lot more to me than any that's what
I didn't want to lose. I didn't want to
lose those people's trust or like feel
you know what I mean like Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And so I've just tried to make
every decision around like as best as I
can like what I think the right thing is
to do and who knows what the hell the
right thing is to do. But I just try to
follow, you know, we all have that
little voice in us like that. We all
have some whe and and I think sometimes
we mask it's hard for us to listen to
that little voice whether whether it's
like you know whether it's our gluttony
or our lust or our or
our you know we we numb ourselves with
medications or with alcohol or we we
scroll on YouTube for 4 hours a night
and instead of because we don't want to
listen to our conscience but there is
this like very intelligent discerning
thing inside of us that's able to tell
us what's right and wrong. And it's a
it's a spiritual thing, I guess. And I
just try to I just try to listen to that
when I can. I don't know. I just still
feel like I haven't done enough. I think
you I think you did a lot. I think you
did a lot. I think you're an
inspiration. You have helped a huge
number of people. And you're also an
inspiration to the other side of it,
which is the artists and just to humans
to have integrity. I don't think people
realize how much of a test of integrity
fame, money, you know, power
also is, you know, uh Rogan and I talk
about this quite a bit. We get to see I
mean Joe especially, but I haven't I've
had a bit of the same. You get
to see people become
famous and you get to see how they deal
with that and it's not easy. A lot of
people will sell themselves a bit, sell
the soul a bit, give away a bit of their
integrity of the spirit that made them
who they are. You get caught up in the
wave of it, you know, and so to to keep
on holding on to that, that's a powerful
thing. That's a really Yeah, that's all
I got though, you know? When you lose
that, what the hell are you like? And
you see it like you see these celebrity
people that just like fall off the they
fall off this, you know, they go off the
deep end. And it's like it's you got to
have you have to have something in your
life to and to keep you centered and to
keep you
um you know your whole perception of
reality and like you're just existence
in reality as all contingent upon this
sort of like this center that you exist
in and you have to if you don't have
that then you're just flying through spa
through sp I mean we're all just riding
on this rock that's going who knows how
fast. You said something uh I think to
Jaco that I really liked. Everything
that has purpose behind it comes with
risk. So there in that moment, I mean,
you're taking a hell of a risk. I was
terrified. I talked about this a little
bit with him, too, but I was terrified
to even put the song out. Like I knew I
was going to be the subject of scrutiny
and judgment, and I knew people were
going to like, you know, I kind of knew
all that was going to happen. And I was
like going back to that talking about
crowds like to stand in front of
thousands of people and everybody be in
some sense of unity. Like a lot of times
when I end the shows, I'll
always I'll always end with this
statement that just says, you know, no
matter what,
like no matter how you feel when you go
online, you know, everyone feels so
small and insignificant and and
powerless. But I just say no matter how
they make you feel online or when you
turn on the TV or when you look at
polling numbers or whatever, like when
you just look at all this trash that we
digest every day, like you're there's
always there will always be more of us
than them and and all that and but like
to see that like just to see the light
in people's eyes when you say that. But
the truth is like and it's like who is
us and who is them? And it's like us
just represents humanity and like and
and all the things we talked about so
far like
just you know the fire and the chaos and
but also the like the love and just just
life life is just such a crazy
complicated beautiful disastrous thing
and then them is like it is it's the
power structure it's the it's that same
terrible side of us that created things
like the Soviet Union and and and is
ultimately what's created this mon this
like monster that we all live under
today which now is not just doesn't just
exist within the confines of the Soviet
Union but seems to almost be a global
epidemic and then that song became the
rebel call against that against the
power structures that creates that.
Yeah. It's like how much fire am I
willing to play with cuz I know at some
point I am going to get burned from it.
I just pray a lot that God I don't have
a lot of selfworth in myself anyway. So
I don't really care what they say or do
to me or I don't care like I don't even
care if I die. Whatever. Just don't let
just just protect the people I love is
all. That's all I ask of God. I have
this dream of just creating this
parallel system that sits beside all
these stupid systems that we live under
that are all sort of engulfed in this
this thing that we talked about at the
beginning.
this this type of structure, you know,
we're none of us where we're all just
robots. And it's like if we hate, you
know, if we hate the way music is and
all these artists are complaining about
the way the venues are monopolized and
the ticket sales are monopolized and
let's just go find other places to play
music cuz there's so many people hungry
for music in places that don't ever get
it. And if you look at it, there's so
many passionate people that are fighting
all these different causes like like
just in food. It's the word they use for
b for more or less starvation. It's a
more polite it's called food insecurity.
But if you look up just in Virginia,
just where I live in Virginia in the
rural areas, how much food insecurity
there is and how many empty vacant farms
there are. It's like this is an obvious
problem that we should be on Twitter
talking about non-stop. Like this is
like everyone has to eat, you know? It
don't matter what you vote for or what
like what you look like or any of that
crap. if you can, you know,
like so like let's just like why why are
we living in a country where we have why
are we living in a country where half of
us are obese and eating shit food and
don't know any better and then the other
half of us don't have like how just it's
just it's lack of leadership that's
caused dysfunction and so if we're tired
of that then then let's just fix it.
Like we don't need anybody's permission.
Like that's the whole beauty. Like
that's the whole beauty of what America
is is like we don't we don't need some
greasyhaired corporate schmuck to give
us permission to go fix all these things
that are wrong. Let's just go do it. And
if they don't like it, fuck them. You
know, in all domains of life from from
food to the music industry honestly to
education also to government itself all
of it. And that, you know, your
music is also just the soundtrack to
that spirit that makes America great of
just constantly trying to revitalize
itself. When the bullshit piles up a
little too high, there's that
revolutionary spirit that says like, "We
need to fix this shit." And and that
inspiration that created this country
was from years of people living under
tyranny. like we forget the story of the
people who really created this country.
Like it's funny, I one of the statements
I made at the very beginning that got
taken way out of context, but I wasn't
in a position to like even begin to have
a conversation about is I made this
comment early on at one of the shows
about about how about about how our
diversity is a strength. But that term
has been hijacked now to mean something
a lot different than what it really
means. But it's like think about how
many different people came together just
at the founding of this country. like
people who spoke different languages,
different cultures, religions, ways of
thinking. So many different peo