Kind: captions
Language: en
your oral microbiome is directly
connected to your heart disease is
connected to your diabetes is connected
to neurodegenerative diseases especially
Alzheimer's we as Humanity will wipe out
the cancer from the human body
Gene Jane welcome back to the show but
first of all this is one of the few
places I come back and just have such
great memories dude it's a lot of fun
anytime that we get to spend time
together especially I'm so obsessed with
the same thing that you're obsessed with
which is the microbiome and I want to
ask of the healthy foods that people
think are making their life better what
should people actually be avoiding what
this interesting thing is there's no
such thing as universal healthy food so
this thing is universally good yeah what
about universally bad so universally bad
is absolutely true so for example sugar
is just bad for everyone it is no one
who would say because it's refined or
like in a natural state would we yeah
Natural State it is much better but
especially in the process State and
there are many reasons obviously is
starting from the top of the tube your
digestive tube in your mouth every time
you eat something that has processed
sugar or even sugar your oral microbes
actually use that to produce lactic acid
that changes the pH of your oral
microbiome and now as we are learning
similar to like you and I were obsessed
about gut microbiome in the last two
years what we're learning is your oral
microbiome is directly connected to your
heart disease is connected to your
diabetes is connected to
neurodegenerative diseases especially
actually Alzheimer really fast and I do
want to get into the actual foods that
people need to be avoiding other than
sugar but give us a quick primer on the
enteric nervous system so I've heard you
say that we're a donut with a tube
through it that's right which I think
will hit people very strangely but what
is the enteric digestive tract okay so
your digestive tract as you can imagine
it starts from the top of the tube in
your mouth so that's where you start the
things and I don't know about you my mom
used to always see
you know eat slowly chew your food and I
always wondered why is she worried that
some other food is going to get stuck in
my throat well it turns out she must
have been a scientist because when you
chew your food and eat slowly your
microbes in your mouth the oral
microbiome is starting to pre-digest the
food so the nutrition can be absorbed in
your digestive tract so there's
signaling going on between the oral
microbiome and the microbiome in your
gut but more than just a signaling first
of all the microbiome itself is
pre-digesting the food and it's sending
the signal to the body the different
organs through the vagus nerve through
the metabolites that it releases right
so you're saying that as I'm chewing I'm
breaking down the food into metabolites
that's right those metabolites are
beating the food to the digestive tract
the microbiome poops out the metabolizes
which is microbiome they do it that fast
as I chew I'm already sending already
single to pancreas so every time you you
eat food and it's sweet it sends a
signal to pancreas hey the sweet stuff
is coming the sugar is coming start
releasing the insulin and when you eat
artificial sweetener guess what happens
the insulin is all there but the insulin
has nothing to do because there is no
glucose to process and now the people
who eat diet step diet soda diet stuff
thinking they're doing good and now they
become insulin resistant Nick they end
up getting diabetes because they're
taking a lot of the artificial sweetness
I want to get back to that because
anecdotally is the only thing I can
speak to that didn't seem to be my
experience but but set that aside so I'm
chewing something I'm sending a a
metabolite based signal to my digestive
so I'm pre-digesting it and sending the
sending a metabolite based signal down
to the gut gut and the rest of the body
remember the blood carries the stuff
that metabolites are absorbed by the
blood so as soon as they're absorbed
it's sending the signal to the whole
body okay now
in addition to that your gut is also
sending the signal through the vagus
nerve to the whole body right so if you
look at the v as humans we are really a
super organism we're 99 of all the genes
that are expressed in our body are not
our own they don't come from our mom and
dad they actually come from these
microbes that are in our mouth in our
gut in our eyes on our scalp on our skin
and literally everywhere and these
microbes and us are in symbiotic
relationship and when that relationship
gets broken is when your body is never
at ease and we call that dis-ease is
disease Okay so
when it do I have a microbiome in my
stomach that's right of course your
microbiome is all over your digest track
especially the 95 of that is in your gut
or quality well yeah so the gut I know I
wasn't sure if in the acidic level of
the stomach we also have a microbiome so
these up in the small intestine there is
microbiome okay and then there's
literally it's all through the Trap and
obviously stomach has very high acid but
a lot of the people who take are these
proton pump inhibitors like Nexium
that now allows all the oral microbiome
is swallowing give or take about one and
a half liter of saliva every day and now
they're saliva when it goes to the
stomach and there is no acid because
you're taking proton pump inhibitors now
all those microbes are going to the gut
which they don't belong and some of the
stuff at least the research shows the
fusobacterium nucleatum which is
actually oral microbiome is number one
culprit for things like colon cancer the
number one culture for colon cancer
starts in the mouth that is shocking to
say the least okay we're going to get to
cancer later
okay so I wanted that quick primer
you've got all these microbes they start
in your mouth you have a tube that runs
from your mouth through your stomach
down into the small intestine large
intestine colon yeah
we have a an ability to break those
nutrients down through the digestive
process the microbes also as you said
poop out metabolites that we then absorb
into the body so we actually want these
things yes
why is it going back to the foods that
we shouldn't be eating so we have sugar
as a universal but there's probably
caveats on that but are there other
things that are universally problematic
anything that's a processed food in
general that's not something that human
body was designed to because the ratio
is wrong because the chemical substrate
gets altered like what is the problem so
for example like when you eat wheat
right it has a lot of fiber in it and
now if you remove everything all you're
really getting is the process part right
which is just the part that normally
would be in addition if you had with
mixed with fiber would be easy to digest
and probably would be I think wheat
might be the perfect
case study to break this down so I have
a feeling as we talk that we're going to
find that there's a lot of things that
have happened that create the modern
disease that's right let me use wheat
and tell me where I go wrong so one we
have to start with the soil yes so we've
been doing Monograms
um fertilizers and pesticides and
pesticides so we're destroying the soil
yes the microbiome of the soil just to
be very clear right the bacteria the
viruses the phages yes we should talk
about phages I did some research on that
absolutely in anticipation of this we're
creating a problem at the soil level
we're also genetically engineering the
wheat to be higher yield to be more
resistant to parasites to be able to
handle a larger dosage of pesticides so
on and so forth and for whatever reason
gluten at least in the US and other
countries that use similar farming
techniques have now become really
problematic for a lot of people because
they break the epithelial lining for
people keeping score at home in the gut
which allows direct permeability between
what should be a tube allows actual
proteins to make their way into the
bloodstream oh by the bacteria into the
bloodstream so what's the bigger problem
what's I've always thought it was the
protein because with gluten in
particular gluten looks like a piece of
the hypothalamus if I remember correct a
part of the brain anyway there's a
protein made in a part of the brain that
looks exactly like the protein in gluten
and that's part of why people get quote
unquote brain fog it's not as simple
right so in some sense there are some
people who may actually have a Celiac
disease right there the gluten does
havoc to them right in general if you
think about gluten they're about 1.4
billion people that live in India right
they all eat gluten so it's not that
gluten is good or bad there are a couple
of problems how it is is grown and also
how your microbes actually metabolize
that right so if you let's step back for
a second and just let's look at the
human body and then we'll come back to
specific because I think we deck too
deep too fast so let's back up for a
second and let's start and say we as
humans co-evolve together with these
microorganisms right so as I was saying
that you one could argue that even
within ourselves we have these
organelles which are really like
cytoplasm you look at the things like
mitochondria so mitochondria has its own
DNA which is separate from our human DNA
which is separate from the microbes that
we are talking about it's in fact our
human cells are multi-organism you would
argue that in ancient cell these were
different organisms that actually all
got captured inside the same same cell
so we are really symbiotically made
there and then we looking at the
complete or you know as super organism
we're consisting of 99 of all that genes
that are coming from all the
microorganisms we've talked about right
70 percent of our immune system is along
our gut lining are microbes and our
human human immune system is constantly
interacting with each other in fact so
much so when the baby is born our
microbiome is constantly teaching or
teaching the immune system what's a
friend what's that for the fact is why
is it there are so many trillions of
these bacteria can live inside us and
our immune system is not killing them
why is that because if they think they
are foreign substance you will have a
constant inflammation the constant
bombardment of the things trying to kill
them what's happening is as the baby is
born these organisms are starting to
tell immune system we are part of self
don't need to get paranoid we are all
working together and then we together
will detach when there is an attack on
us the pathogen that's coming from
outside and then we can actually work
together in fact when the baby is born
the first few days I think we talked
about last time the first few days of
mother's milk contains oligosaccharide
which is literally is a fiber the
oligosaccharides cannot be digested by
the human body it can only be digested
or fermented by the microbes in your gut
and that through that the microbes are
releasing butyrate which are actually
the short chain fatty acids there are
anti-inflammatory so imagine what nature
is saying nature is saying we just
created this office spring to keep this
office being healthy and growing
we shouldn't be necessarily feeding it
you need to be feeding them to make sure
that we are all together
and then as you start to look at the
first exposure to the microbiome it
starts in the birth canal so when the
baby is being born is baited with the
birth canal so vaginal microbiome and
that's really the first exposure you
start to get and then as we start to
grow you could have identical twins you
still have different diseases in
different points right and we'll come
back to it in terms of why the DNA that
people say your genes are your destiny
why that is completely wrong right but
we'll get to it in a second here so
coming back to the human primer we
really are a super organism that are
symbiotically working together when the
relationship gets broken and we're not
feeding these microbes what they need to
survive they start to scrounge around
and they're starting to now do different
things their behavior completely changes
so it's not the organism change there
what functions they perform is
constantly changing right so same
organism can produce something good in
one person one environment your gut
environment and the same organism in my
toxic environment could produce
something totally different to survive
right so what happens is people take
these probiotics like acromancia is a
great example A lot of people take a
commencia thinking is good for you that
is the number one organism if you Google
Ackerman CI and Ms that's the number one
organism that's directly connected to
causing Ms so why is it in some
environment acremancia produces good
stuff like that do we know what
environment is positive and what's
negative yeah and it's actually so when
when you have the inflammation in the
gut lining Remember economancia's full
name is acromancia mucinophila said
remember I had no idea yeah but uh yeah
so lover of Museum really okay
lover of music
so it really lives in your Museum and
when you are essentially have high
inflammation or you'll assist him go on
a long a long diet that you're not
eating food you're going to three day
fasting it starts to eat your music
right and now you all the barrier that
we had created is gone your gut lining
can get permeable so your gut lining
gets permeable because there is
inflammation what causes inflammation
your microbes are producing things like
lipopal lipopolysaccharide LPS high
amount of protein fermentation causing
uh producing ammonia or high amount of
food that's producing a lot of sulfide a
lot of pleasure assembly a lot of the
stuff that's going on that's highly
toxic that causes the inflammation in
the gut that breaks the boundary that
breaks the intestinal barrier to be
permeable and then not only the food
starts to go the bacteria start and the
viruses start to now translocate into
the blood causing a systemic
inflammation and by the way same thing
happens in your mouth when you have a
bleeding gums or leaky gums just like a
leaky gut you have leaky gums guess what
when it's bleeding all the microbes from
your mouth are going into the blood
causing the same systemic inflammation
and that's what causes the systemic
diseases in different organs
okay so now that we have that set up
let's go back to wheat so there's a lot
of things that have happened in modern
context that alter the way that we
respond to wheat
what is the bigger problem is and look I
get that this stuff is also intertwined
but
you hear a lot about well if you eat
bread in Europe you're not going to have
the same negative inflammatory response
you're going to have if you eat it here
so is the bigger problem that a modern
diet is changing the makeup of your
microbiome or is it that we've altered
the food substances themselves that even
if you were eating the same thing that
your you know ancestors ate long long
ago that you'd still have a problem
because of what we've done to the soil
genetic engineering you know all that
stuff
I suspect it is part of both in fact
even the people who go to Europe and eat
the pizza in Italy and they say come
back and say I have no problem with that
right so it is in that case it's really
how we produce wheat in our country
versus we produce wheat there it's much
more organically produced wheat right
the second part is are depending on if
you're eating lot of processed food our
gut microbes are actually no longer
friendly to our environment in that case
it is also in addition to the food we
eat that's how it is grown it is also
our microbes have completely changed are
no longer able to digest the food they
should have been able to do is it that
they can't digest the food or is it that
the makeup of my microbiome did so you
talked about acromancia there's God
knows how many thousands of different
species so is it that I have the wrong
makeup of the species or is it that what
I am feeding them is breaking them
because I mean you've talked about this
I can put a microbe in the ocean to eat
oil yes so if there's a microbe to
metabolize basically everything is it
really the problem with the the the
actual bacteria or is it that I've
gotten the bad bacteria to over
proliferate in my gut you have to have
the right set of oil there's not like
one single organism they could be tens
of thousands of different organisms that
can actually metabolize that food right
so one is part of having it other thing
is the environment it finds itself in so
there are lots and lots of bad stuff and
it's crowding out the good stuff when
the food comes in they may not even get
a shot at it right so in a sense the
things that could have been digested if
there was a better balance is no longer
anything in this environment it is
really interesting is not only we are
feeding them they are feeding each other
right so it is one set of organism can
take the food actually poop out or
metabolites that can can be metabolized
by some other organism and then it
produces something else so in an
environment whether it is really good I
mean it's actually not complicated look
at Amazon forest right if you look at
Amazon any type of rainforest every step
you take has a completely different
makeup yet the whole place is lash and
green that means you can have a nice
Lush and green environment they don't
have to be identical
they can be very disagree but that still
it feels like given the second and third
order consequences that this gets
complicated really fast and given what
I've been through release I know how
hard it has been at least historically
to fix
now maybe we're getting more inside
closer so what happened was what are you
what are we using to get closer is it AI
is it AI chomping through massive data
what's the big breakthrough so the big
breakthrough is actually analyzing the
body as a whole so let me just give you
an example of what we did seven years
ago we simply analyzed your gut
microbiome and time to figure out what
was there well who is there and what
they were doing right so remember before
us everybody including to date every
other microbiome company focuses on who
is there we change that and say we're
going to focus on not just who is there
but what they are actually producing
what are they expressing what are they
metabolizing right and then we see oh my
God that's look at what they're doing is
it good or bad and can we use the food
to say change that their behavior right
so that was first part and then we
realize and say videos said that's only
a small picture we don't know when these
things gets absorbed in the blood how
does a human host is reacting to it so
two and a half years ago we say wait I
said this is not going to give us
everything we need we're going to now
analyze both your gut and the finger
prick blood to know all of your
inflammatory biomarkers so what do we do
when you get a fingerprint blood we're
looking at all the human host gene
expression from your mitochondrial Gene
what are you referring inferring from
that the way that the body is responding
so
so walk me through could I have good
metabolites but a bad reaction so what
we're imagining is what is happening in
your immune system so when we do a
fingerprint blood the truth is at that
point you have red blood cells and you
have white blood cells right that blood
cells have no nucleus you end up really
analyzing the white blood cells that
means you're looking at all of the
inflammatory markers all the cytokines
right so you know interleukin one
interleukin and you're saying though
that you could look at the metabolites
and not be able to predict my reaction
to those metabolites so what we do is
we're looking at your metal you're
looking at what your microbes are
producing now we're looking at all the
inflammatory markers and are looking at
all the mitochondrial gene expression
right so now we're looking at what
mitochondria is producing what your
immune system is producing right what's
in the blood and then we're saying we
just said this is what we see happening
in the gut this is what we see the human
who's responding to it that's n of one
and then we start to look at n of C
hundred thousand in our case n of 500
000 right now we have lots of data to
see every time we see this this is
what's happening on N of one you cannot
make that conclusion because they could
be completely inconclusive if I'm
understanding this right it makes the
following prediction that eventually
you'll have looked at a data set large
enough that you'll be able to know from
the metabolites how they'll respond or
would you need to know my DNA and the
metabolite no so this is this is not not
we're looking at all of the immune
system how your immune system is
reacting yeah but what I'm trying to
figure out is it will immune systems
react to a metabolite in a predictable
fashion yes okay so you could then
eventually get a data set so basically
yeah and that was the first so this is
what we did three months ago we still
wait a sec we are still missing the
another part as we talked about the top
of the tube so we say we said what
happening here is also impacting the
human host so why not analyze
saliva to look at Oral microbial
activities and the human gene expression
in your saliva look at both the gut
microbial activity and the human gene
expression from the sh from the
epithelial cells shedding and then look
at the fingerprint block to understand
all the human gene expression and take
all this data together and can you start
making more sense out of it than just
one two or three samples right and now
that we have analyzed so many samples we
are able to in fact predict and give you
the score where you stand for example
when you do this test of full body
intelligence we analyze your saliva your
stool and a fingerprint blood and then
we give you your biological age the
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description alright my friend back to
today's episode before we add a
confounding variable of biological age I
want to make sure that I'm understanding
what you guys are looking for well so
we've got
there there's an impossible amount of
complexity here yes so are there really
billions of species of bacteria so there
are billions of species but in terms of
the number of Pathways or number of
metabolites are much more finite okay
usable thing is what metabolite is being
kicked off so I'm not worried so much
about what bacteria you have but I worry
a lot about what metabolites are being
produced right okay that's super helpful
right so now how many metabolites are we
talking about 10 000.
thousands okay but not tens of them okay
so we've got thousands of metabolites
that are being kicked off yes now those
thousands of metabolites
will you've already answered yes to this
but I have a feeling that I'm not fully
understanding what you're saying will
those metabolites impact everybody's
um epigenetic expression the same way or
will those metabolites be good or bad
based on my current epigenetic
expression then you see genetic versus
epigenetic I want to be very sure so
answer is yes because epigenetics is
changing your expression yeah that's why
I want to stick to epigenetics the
actual expression in this moment so
actual expression in this movement is
what really matters your DNA which is
your original genes not don't matter as
much right and the reason I don't say
don't matter as much is remember the
same alphabet can produce lot of
different things like in our body every
single part of our body from hair to
everything is produced by the identical
DNA right but we can make an eye out of
it we can make a nail out of it we can
make a hair out of it right so let's
focus what is epigenetic text let me
just Define clearly so your genes are
there which I think more you and I even
though we look so different and you're
10 times smarter than I am with the same
almost 99.8 same DNA what really matters
is in terms of tiny difference but how
epigenetically the things are being
expressed right so epigenetic means Epi
means over genetics right so in a sense
in your genes you could have methylation
which slows down the expression of that
particular gene or acetylation that
actually increases the expression of
that Gene just by changing the
expression of certain genes and under
expression of certain genes the same DNA
can produce my hair or it can become
eyes skin lung kidney heart whatever it
is right now once it is expressed it is
called RNA so you have DNA then you have
epigenetic then you have RNA right so
RNA tells you what is being expressed
and we are analyzing your RNA
specifically mRNA and the non-coding RNA
right can I ask you a question about RNA
and DNA so I was looking this up yeah I
don't understand RNA well yet so is the
process I know I'm oversimplifying it
but if this is directionally correct
that'll really help me understand yeah
so is RNA red so you're reading the DNA
yes and the reader is asking what is
currently being expressed of these genes
and then it Crea because RNA looks
exactly like DNA but half
so like it's been at least as it's shown
on YouTube it looks exactly like DNA but
cut in half and what does acgu instead
of ACG yeah so right and what is really
happening is it's control epigenetics
what is it okay
because it is made it unzips the DNA yes
it looks like a top and a bottom so
you're looking at the codons right so
you know you look at codons codons like
every three there is a start and and
there is a quota right so that literally
tells you take this stuff and express it
right so depending on what control
signals are there which is methylation
or acetylation it says make more of the
script or make less of these scripts
right make more and less or make don't
make what is make more or less really
yeah so it's still going to make some
yep interesting yes it's not like
methylation doesn't stop completely if
you're highly methylated it'll
completely stop it right but a slight
methylation will still produce it's not
like yes no it's not just on off I
thought it was on off no no it's
actually more like a dimmer okay right
very interesting and so having that
dimmer is what allows you to have much
more possibilities
right so that's the reason when you have
methylation clock it's not like oh my
God is this on or off it's a methylation
clock allows you to see how much of it
is on or how much of it's off how much
is dimmed and how much
so then I hate derailing us from because
I still don't understand RNA yeah but
yeah so the Horvath clock yes which is
checking methylation that's biological
checking the dimmer yes not on off yes
so are you looking for dimmer amount on
certain genes that's what they're doing
all genes so we look at everything so
we're not even looking at the dimmer we
are looking at post dimmer what is being
expressed
right so we don't need well I'm talking
about sorry one step at a time but just
the Horvath clock because you mentioned
your biological age yeah so I'm going to
come there in a second here so the way
we measure biological age is very
different then yeah density uh the
methylation clock the hormones really oh
you guys have a totally different way so
here's how we do it right because there
they're looking at one single source of
Truth which is how much your human genes
are methylated or not methylated just
human genes and the ignoring the 99 of
the other stuff which is on whole
microbiome right in your mouth in your
gut everywhere
completely ignoring it now right so what
we do is very different so when we say
this term is your biological age what we
do is we say look we have now collected
600 trillion nucleotides
600 trillion nucleotides from over I
really wish I knew what a nucleotide was
so RNA basically cgt base okay right so
each base pair is a nucleotides right so
once we have those base pairs now we are
saying is okay they're coming from these
half a million people half a million
samples right now we say okay
everyone we know what their biomarker
looks like so we create let's assume
some type of a algorithm that says this
is Tom's biomarker based on his saliva
blood and stool
and then now we have created the
biomarkers for every single age so
people who are 18 years old 19 years old
20 years or 21 and now we have whole
number of biomarkers for every single
age so we snapshot of what all the
nucleotides look like if you're 63 if
you're 50 if you're 47 exactly 21. now
you come along and we say oh we just
analyzed all your biomarkers you look
like just like this guy wow that's
really interesting if nucleotides
actually matter for anything what point
is this convince me that they do because
I know nothing basically so look at them
saying this is your all the genes that
are expressing your body they're letter
pairs but we're not looking just so
we're looking at letter pairs of the RNA
RNA okay so we're back to you you're
gonna have to help my slow Minds grasp
here's let me try to explain it and then
tell me where my understanding breaks
you're going to be tempted to just go
back to zero no no no tell me where my
understanding breaks offered use to
create RNA yes you begin with a strand
of DNA that's correct then there is a
thing I don't know what that thing is
yes there's a thing that cuts it yes
literally separates like a zipper top
and bottom of the deleting it actually
just keep going sorry say it again it's
reading it reading it but it's
separating them yes well except the
separation part happened actually it's
called four yeah so it's basically
creates an RNA from a single strand
creates two rnas single strength so
that's what is it true yes the top and
the bottom well it's these water is it
is because it's like it's oh God this is
where at the edge of my understanding
it's like uh what did they call it Prime
five yes and Prime three yeah so they
will go backwards so they go back this
way and this way okay yeah so I got yeah
only sort of understand this but it is
unzipping them yes so now I have the two
harness pairs but they are separated yes
and now those are RNA no so they are
actually just a single stranded DNA
still yeah right the RNA gets created
when they start reading it and you say
all right this is one this is one this
what so like you see this is beginning
and end this is one nucleotide one not
nucleotide it would say one codon one
codon okay and this basically starts
saying now this makes one
protein or one metabolites right so
literally start producing among amino
acids so remember every one of them
produces every codon produces an amino
amino acids right so some number of
codons will produce some so when I'm
Gene when when I am making the RNA
whatever I am yes I am reading the DNA
yes which is methylated so I know what's
active and not active dimmer switch
so when do I remove things because I'm
like this codon is not active so this is
no so they only when it's reading now
see this is too deep a sign so I am not
I can imagine if you don't understand
fine I'm perfectly happy to get to the
edge of your understanding all right
this is now this is where our chief
science officer
don't give me the things from my
understanding again I'm not a scientist
here right is to say okay these set of
codons will produce this amino acids and
now we essentially are able to the way
we do is we look at all the
so your clock says this amino acid
profile or these looks like this for
this age looks like so we don't look at
amino acid we're looking at but you're
looking at the things that create the
amino acid that's correct and since the
only thing that matters is what they
create by proxy by process at least we
are looking at the amino acid but what
we're doing is really looking at the
transcripts of everything so we're
looking at every transcript we call them
mRNA transcripts right so we're looking
at all these but transcription is just
turning DNA into transcripts with
transcription is turning DNA into on it
and what's turned is transcript the
transcripts are they what grab the amino
acids
yes they make the amino acids okay so so
this is my understanding stops here so
these are the transcripts we are reading
then we basically look at the network
graph if these transcripts are over
expressed these transcripts are under
expressed what metabolite is going to be
produced based on these transcripts
right what would Steve Horvath say why
his method is better but if you had to
be super generous and steel man has
already no so I would simply say is look
there is no ground truth so in a sense
when someone says this is better or
worse or same or not is what are we
comparing against
so in a sense like we all know what a
chronological age is hopefully we all do
right the biological age is a concept we
all can determine but no one can see
this is the ground truth but the reason
you think yours is better is it's more
holistic it's more holistic and it has
lots more people so whole earth clock is
based on thousands of people this is
based on hundreds of thousands of people
and I'm not even suggesting that when
it's a better better compared to what
right you can relatively how do you know
who is active there is no ground throat
to saying the whole lives longer but
that'll ultimately be it look it's gonna
take time I get it but let's assume even
is to live longer live longer than what
somebody like if the Horvath clock says
oh you're 20 years younger take an
Actuarial Table yeah so you're supposed
to live to 78 looking at a statistical
average so it's again you're back give
me something but if your Horvath clock
tells me that I'm 20 years younger and
then I lived 20 years past the
statistical age we'll call that pretty
good no but not really I would say it
would be what are you using then if you
think my logic is flawed what do you use
so if something the logic of all of us
are essentially saying it hey we know
are you relatively younger or older than
your chronology yeah but I'm ultimately
all I care about is if the Horvath clock
tells me to eat more onions and you tell
me to eat less onions then I need to
know who's right who's right and that
point what our part I'm trying to make
is that from our perspective we look at
the stuff and saying okay let's assume
we were supposed to Live 105 yeah right
and let's assume you're 20 years younger
and you die at 95. yeah have you lived
your full life or you become your
biological classes all or you actually
were supposed to only live to be 95
right so pointy just because you were 20
years younger but died at 95.
but you couldn't get 205 that means
biological cops are going to do a really
complex problem but let's solve it so
what you're thinking through just to say
it in other words is we don't know what
the human life expectancy is in general
and forget the generalities what is your
max potential we don't know that so the
Horvath clock or any biological clock is
simply giving you how much under your
biological age you are but I have no
idea how long and that's that is what
I'm trying to say is it's basically
statistically we are saying you're
you're similar to the person who is of
this age looking at very large
population and it doesn't mean from a
functional standpoint from functional
perspective okay that is what so you
perform like somebody of this age but
who the hell knows how long you're going
to live that's right do you think that's
going to be a totally different clock so
if poorvath and your clock can we give
your clock a name is it the volume clock
biological clock all right Divine
biological clock
um if that is telling us performance yes
do you think there will be a totally
different clock that's going to tell us
uh average human expectancy times x so
1.1 1.2 like because that's the clock I
care about that's and and the point you
have is to the different companies are
looking at very different things so for
example the inflammation clock right so
the people say hey all it matters to you
is how well your immune system is acting
because that's what determines how old
you are so meaning the clock seems like
a weird choice of words there Gage well
they call that information for
inflammation clock I agree that's a
weird it's a weird name but it's
basically score is it a clock or is this
a gauge it's in school right call it
it's gauge school okay so your
inflammation is core in their mind is
the only thing that matters because that
determines how long you want to live
because end of the day if your body is
highly inflamed
to some extent inflammation chronic
inflammation is bad right no doubt about
it but that's not alone some people say
the only thing that matters your
cognitive health so if I can figure out
your cognitive Health score that's your
biological clock yeah some people say
well it's your heart health if I can
figure out how well your heart is
working that's your biological plot some
people say well what matters is how well
you breathe so I'm going to look at your
lung clock and tell you if that is what
it is that's how I'm going to tell you
how old you're going to do it and it
probably will break out to those things
if your brain health isn't there do you
really care if your heart gives out do
you care that you're a better life
but this stuff directionally is very
interesting
at least today your saliva your stool
your blood and looking at those three
samples rather than just one sample
trying to get as close to the holistic
bio age as possible well let's abstract
it back out what is your what's the
thing that you Naveen Jane really care
about is I care about function and
duration so I care about not just one
thing so what we do is we say okay
you do this test I'm going to give you
your biological age that's one signal
not the only signal we give you your
immune Health score to now you're saying
hey look at your immune health is doing
good but not as good there is what do
you guys look at on that immune looking
at overreaction under reaction but no
actually looking at all of your
cytokines right so remember the immune
system is consist of all these
interleukins all these cytokines so
we're looking at the things that are
anti-inflammatory how are they being
expressed the things that are over
inflammatory how are they being in uh
Express so the more inflammatory signal
we are getting
that means higher the inflammation it is
in your body right so we're looking at
all of that stuff then we look at things
like your heart health you guys are
looking at inflammation already yeah so
it's called immune Health score in the
blood in the blood when you actually
count
we'll be talking to all the interleukins
and transcripts how many of them there
are is it just how many I just don't
know that's interesting we're looking at
hunts this we know we get about
10 000 different types of scripts in the
blood
all right so we're looking at all those
scripts and then we are also there is
scripts what do you mean transcripts
and now we're looking at your for
example cognitive Health score so the
separate score is called brain and
cognitive housing score either of the
blood or do you have people take it the
school blood and saliva but those three
tell you cognitive performance so we're
looking at approximation as much as we
get by looking at your Gaba production
your serotonin production so we're
looking at all the things that we know
today affect your cognitive performance
right so it's a proxy for a cognitive
health so say hey what is your vitamin D
level what's your Gaba production what's
your serotonin production and we see
over here are 10 other things that
improve or decline your cognitive
performance we're looking at proxy of
those right similarly we are looking at
the things on this heart health what are
the things that signal whether your
heart health is good or bad so we are
looking at the things that would cause
the heart health to be poor
such as your LDL production right so
we're looking at all the different
things that will produce the thing that
will in proxy Define your heart health
right similarly we're looking at the
things that would define your gut health
so we're not looking the things that
different parts of your body and these
are all different signals including your
biological age but we're saying is look
this is our approximation of where you
are relative to all the people we have
analyzed so you really may be 63 for
example me but I'm biologically fall as
if I'm 50 that means my biomarkers match
with other people who are 50 and that
changes so if I do a test a year from
now and if I'm not really taking care of
my health that may move up to 55 how far
do you think you can push that can you
be 95 and perform like you're 50. you
know
time will tell we have seen people what
20-25 years younger in their biological
age and chronological age right do you
know who Brian Johnson is I know of him
yes he's coming back on the show I think
so he claims God I don't want to put
words in his mouth that he's got the
biggest gap between or no sorry the
biggest reversal of age in the shortest
amount of time I think that's accurate
if you don't know what he measured
himself against him again you know in
some sense there is really no good I
mean there's no ground truth I mean how
do you measure you're proud of the fact
that you're 63 and measure out of it but
that's based on our measures right and
what I'm saying is that I my biomarkers
are similar to other people who are age
50 whatever that means so let's say that
that's the gold standard yeah if that
was a golden standard that means my
physical performance and mental
performance
is similar to the people
who are 50 years old but doesn't mean
I'm 50 years old I'm still 63. yeah but
I'm trying to figure that I get but
assuming that you kept those buyer I I
what I want to know very succinctly do
you think and I know you're guessing do
you think that we can hold our biomarker
static even as our physical age
I have seen it in the last
two and a half three years we've been
measuring the biological age I've done
lost six tests and then I know when I
actually go off Off Script eating the
stuff that I shouldn't be eating and I
literally go on a vacation eating all
kinds of junk and when I do a test my
biological age moved up now how fast can
you move it up and down I have not
tested I mean four to six months even I
test and I've seen that a quite a bit
difference like five seven year
difference whoa yeah is this like
um A1C where I can check like the your
last few months you have on average been
a 55 year old so if I look at my
biological age or look by the way so we
show you the longitudinal data of as you
test so I can see here with my gut
health here's what happened and as I'm
doing this I've done like 10 or 12 tests
where am I going so is it getting better
it's getting worse so every single thing
you can start to measure for yourself
because you know the ground truth I have
you behaving yourself or you're not we
don't know that right
okay this is really interesting so I
check my glucose I I wear I don't know
maybe four months out of the year I wear
a continuous glucose monitor amazing I
love doing it but we built that into the
system already as AI tell me more so
what we did is we actually put a CGM are
you partnered with somebody or you guys
make your own so what we did we don't
have to partner anymore how do you get
the glucose data
so we basically built the AI model so
what we did is we took 11 I'm just hold
it for a second 1100 people
put a continuous glucose monitor fed
them 70 000 different types of food and
then looked at the microbial activity
yeah and said if we see this being
produced by microbes because we know
that's going to change the glucose
response can we build a AI that will
predict which is what your continuous
glucose monitor is showing can we
predict by looking at the gut microbial
activity and we published that paper
with 87 accuracy over what period of
time the glucose changes so rapidly well
it no it only changes from what foods
you eat it's not unpredictable so if you
have my glucose will fluctuate by 70
points within an hour no no but for now
see for the same food
yes what do you mean seven no no no no
let's say I eat a bowl of ice cream it's
going to spike hard and then two hours
later it's back to normal so we're
looking at a post-parent deal exactly
what it spikes to me and now you eat ice
cream again tomorrow yes would it Spike
the same or would it be different
definitively not the same same if we had
no other food just that correct that
come on no no no you know better than
that no no so what we do is actually the
difference in the intrinsically is about
13 or so I don't know what you mean by
that so basically so here's here's what
I'm saying if I exercise my ass off yes
and then eat ice cream it'll be very
different than if I don't absolutely
exercise and I eat ice cream that's a
huge difference if I don't sleep well
that so if I sleep well exercise eat ice
cream very different then don't sleep
well don't exercise it is completely
agree with you so why are you telling
some in the metabolites of my oh no so
what we're doing is we're saying is he
we took 1100 people right and we say
keep doing what you're doing so don't go
out and change your behavior
no but pointy and we bought the food for
them so we didn't say that hey go eat
what you you say here is a food for you
to eat okay right don't change your
habits so don't go work out four hours
today and then tomorrow you don't right
right so we were trying to essentially
normalize this stuff right I get it so
maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys
are trying to do so basically what we
were able to do was now we can predict
based on your gut microbial activity I'm
going to come back from the oral side in
a second yeah based on that we were able
to predict that when you eat carrot
you're gonna have higher glucose
response what's it say for banana or for
example or uh are you just trying to
come up with a
um like a glucose response per food per
food okay yes not on any individual
actually for each individual for each
individual okay so it's it's n of one
and of one
it's okay so I have to run through this
same battery of foods to get my own no
no so what we do is now that we built
the model we can see based on now that
we so remember reverse so we see this is
what's happening in your gut microbial
activity
if you were to eat carrot we know what
is going to do
right so we know this question what to
do okay so what I what my metabolites I
kick off what meta blacks you kick off
so we know this is your code so if you
don't know how my body is going to
respond right because there's so many
variables so let's so here's what we're
saying those variables change what you
metabolize what your microbial
activities are so you know when you
exercise a lot your microbial activity
changes yep so we have now seen that
when people exercise their gut microbial
activity changes right so we know now
based on the gut microbial activity
think of this your code that's a
self-modifiable code if we know what
this code is going to do
we can see if this input happens what
the output will be okay right so we know
this is we can analyze this this is
constants whether it's a carrot or
almonds or so let me see if I understand
this correctly if I give you my
microbial output yes you can tell me a
banana is going to affect you this way
this way
very interesting now where do you guys
see that going so what happens to now so
here so now we are able to predict to
say he don't eat banana but it's okay
for you to eat almonds or don't eat
almonds which are going to cause more
Spike than you normally normally people
say almonds should not be high glycemic
response we can say for you Tom almonds
are really high glucose response don't
eat almonds but you can eat banana okay
so having listened to as many interviews
with you as I have I know that your that
this stuff changes very rapidly and that
one day you're predicting that the
toilet will just give you this
information so you will make a deposit
and then the toilet is going to be like
hey eat almonds today after 3 P.M but
make sure that you do your normal 75
push-ups uh well but we don't really so
in a sense as long as we know what they
are expressing because all these things
you do whether it's exercise or sleep
all of those are changing the what
you're expressing so the reason you feel
bad or feel good is something is being
expressed differently how rapidly does
it change glucose is by the mineral so
glucose is not by the minute if you no
no no no no no so let's assume you don't
agree with that no so I'm just for not
for the same food if you don't change
anything else right understand so my
point is no so let's assume you don't
eat you today right now
if you say okay
I have no I eat the same oatmeal
four hours later and I have not done any
workout or I have I normally do 30
minutes of workout after I do variables
held today including in metabolite
production metabolic production we can
measure so you don't need so we say Hey
you work out we know what the what they
are doing because that's the code we can
analyze yeah right now once we know what
they're going to do we see this input
you give us we can tell you what the
output is going to be right and that i