Kind: captions
Language: en
I think the world would be a lot better
place if more people understood that
political Authority is inherently
illegitimate you got to care about this
transgender bathrooms what's your
opinion we didn't care about it 5
minutes ago we're not care about five
minutes from now but you this is the
most important thing happening in
America right now it's impossible to
convince a man of something if his
salary depends on it not being true and
when those leaders have personal
consequences very quickly uh they start
changing their tun
Michael malice welcome to the show thank
you for having me I'm very glad to have
you and I want to ask you would life be
better the world be better if tomorrow
instantly everybody became an anarchist
to the best of their abilities and I
mean in real life the word better is a
loaded word because I think a lot of
people when they hear the word better
think there's no cost right so I'll give
you another example let's suppose I
waved them magic wand and instantly
everyone's lifespan was exactly one year
better one year longer right well you'd
have a lot of kids dying at one year of
age right who otherwise would have been
still born so there's a huge cost there
right so if everyone became an anarchist
the best their ability I don't know what
being an anarchist the best of their
ability would mean for a lot of people I
don't think most people
think philosophically or at all um but I
think the world would would be a lot
better place if more people understood
that political Authority is inherently
illegitimate um and that we are all
individually responsible and accountable
for our lives and for our communities
and things like that okay where the
rubber mea Road how does it become
better if more people think that uh
government is illegitimate because you
would have far fewer police
enforcing nonsensical edicts from
sociopathic politicians you would have
far more of an incentive and a mindset
for people to form solutions to problems
that have otherwise been left to the
mercy of the state you would have no war
you would have far more interest on the
local level in getting things done and
making things happen um and there would
be a lot less animosity
which I think politics engenders in
almost all of us for the specific reason
that if I am I don't know my neighbors's
political views are I don't talk to them
right but now I have to care because
government forces us into a polity where
we basically have to have this
relationship that is nonsensical and
illegitimate if that's taken away then
their political views are the same as
basically their musical taste if I don't
have to hear it more power to you I
think fewer police that that one's going
to trigger people so if you're police
enforcing they're right the nonsensical
laws but uh why would that be an
automatic reaction to people recognizing
that government's power is illegitimate
because if I'm a cop right I would
understand I have no power to do half
the things that I'm alleged to be able
to do I think so here's my reaction is
that that makes the hypothesis that the
crimes are being committed because of
the state
not that they're just a natural state of
human no I'm saying most police activity
is inherently criminal things like if
you have some drug in your house I can
break down your door and wave guns
around that is insane um almost all of
these kind of militarized police um
attacks on people's homes which would
make sense in the context of if there's
a hostage right or someone's in imminent
physical danger you break down the door
this we we don't have time to mess
around but any other circum it makes
absolutely no sense and yet it happens
on a daily basis this is something that
under anarchism you would understand is
completely illegitimate and insane and
those cops you just saw I'm sure a lot
of people saw recently cops knocked on
the door some guy opened the door
holding the gun at his side he was
ex-military and they killed him and then
they doubled down saying you know we
were scared you know this is this is
psychosis you don't get to knock on some
one's door and if they're in their own
home having not pointing at you draw on
them and kill them and not have conse
quences for it I mean these people
aren't going to jail they're probably
not even going to get fired it's just
deranged and this is what having a
populace raised in government schools
tends to accept as the norm and just
because something is common doesn't mean
it's normal or acceptable okay that's a
very powerful thing that I want to come
back to but um so when I think about
anarchism and as an ideology it the sort
of maximizing Freedom everybody is
responsible for themselves everybody's
free to choose as they want it's
consensual relationships all around I
don't know I'd say maximizing freedom
because it's kind of a binary because
just because you understand state power
is illegitimate doesn't mean you're
really in a position to do anything
about it right true if I understand that
I'm a hostage in this jail right that
doesn't really mean I'm in a position to
get out of this jail yep so I don't like
the term maximizing because that implies
that if something is like smaller
government where it's AOK it's more like
a binary switch that okay this is all
[ __ ] got it okay so we have to tease
apart two different things one a world
in which you have anarchists living
under a state trying to sort of migrate
the state in One Direction versus the
snap your fingers and everybody's an
anarchist you keep saying everyone and I
pushed back on that before it's not
everyone I don't think everyone has I I
this isn't Disney uh you know politics
is not for everyone I'm not a fan of
democracy and there's nothing wrong with
that I shouldn't be having an opinion on
meteorology modern dance lots of quis I
mean there's you got a list of things I
should be running my mouth about like
there's no shortage so the idea that
somehow everyone should have an opinion
on the state and political philosophy is
ridiculous and the only reason we accept
it even as a hypothesis is that we're
taught to the contrary since we were
kids in government schools and through
corporate media it makes no sense
whatsoever well I think there's a bigger
question that we're going to have to
tackle which is why we end up in this
place anyway with States sure which
seems to me to be there's there is a
natural thing that happens when humans
organize that leads to some sort of
State CU I've heard you say that even at
the hunter gatherer level you're going
to find people that they've created some
sort of proxy of a state this is the
thing people have this belief um which
is a lie spread intentionally that any
sort of organization is a government and
they'll be like well without a
government who's going to protect you my
bodyguard isn't my president My
Bodyguard who's the one giving orders
The Bodyguard or you as opposed to who's
giving the orders the government or the
citizen so these are not analogous
phenomenon even though the service stely
being provided is
security okay is there a default thing
in the human mind that as we get
together in collectives that we we don't
necessarily have to end up in the kind
of states that we see now correct or any
state at all I do think hierarchy is
inevitable okay in fact hierarchy is
inevitable the term pecking order comes
from Birds right so this left anarchist
anarco communist idea that hierarchies
can be abolished is impossible and and
incoherent because even children do it
you know any kind of group you know it's
not the people who claim to be natural
leaders but if even in a party people
are going to be centers of attention
people are going to be running the show
like people find their niche in
different contexts different ways and
some people are followers in all
contexts that's nothing wrong with that
I mean there's many I don't tell my
lawyer what to do I don't tell my
accountant what to do I don't tell my
doctor what to do I sit down and shut f
up and I am subordinate to someone who
knows what they're talking about in that
context so and there's some people who
are like look I just want to do my job
put in hard days work take care of my
family and that is not just commendable
but heroic but they're never going to be
leaders and that's fine okay so it is
not a foregone conclusion that people
will end up with States correct it is a
foregone conclusion that humans as
animals are going to end up in a
hierarchical structure we see that way
deeper than just humans yes so then the
question becomes do you think there's a
reason that the preponderance of States
at least that exist right
now leverage that I mean I used it in
the definition that they end up in
states that we would recognize yes it's
it's it's organized systematized
banditry which why did that start
because it's a great way for people to
Rob populaces and get enormously
powerful enormously wealthy without
having a lift a finger okay so if that
is basically um a marketplace where an
efficienc arises that so I think it
presupposes that that some part of the
population wants power correct which is
I think not in dispute for anybody yeah
no I don't think people are going to be
weird about that one uh so we've got a
part of the populace they're going to
want power and the state as we see it
now the different flavors but the state
as we see it now is a uh a market
efficiency coming to the four where it's
a great way for a select few to Garner
to co-opt the money Focus whatever it is
that they're trying to co-op of the
populace the money is secondary I think
the power is primary and the status I
mean humans are status seeking animals
uh I don't think a lot I think a lot of
politicians in fact i' bet a majority if
you ask them would you rather be super
wealthy or super powerful they they've
moving toward the powerful uh technique
I wouldn't call it market efficiency
because I think governments are
oppositional to markets by definition um
but it certainly fills some kind of
psychological need and I think a lot of
people again since geman times have been
you know the whole big man big man
theory of how governments arose people
do understand that we need security we
need some semblance of order the myth
and or I should say lie is that this has
to or can only happen as a function of a
government or someone imposing this on
the populace which if you think about it
for a few seconds is really demonstrably
false what I'm trying to parse out in
all of this is I find the uh Anarchist
as you define it I want to be very clear
CU you're my only interaction with
anarchism as a way of thinking but as
you define it it is pretty interesting
but then as I try to go okay well wait
are you trying to convince people which
you've made very clear off camera you're
not trying to prze or convince anybody
of anything but I'm trying to figure out
do you think this has real world
applications and people should really
give this a look or I don't use the word
should what word would you use this
whole concept of should I don't know
somebody else's context so if this is
something that people find interesting
or thought-provoking or or just
historically interesting then more power
to them they can read the anarchist
handbook and I do think the more people
who of a certain type who fall into line
with this kind of thinking the better
off we will all be but I don't believe
in this kind of there's that tricky word
better yes I don't believe in blanket
prescriptions for like a big audience
that that I mean a lot of people have
better things to do than think about
anarchism interesting do you feel the
West is going in a bad Direction it's
not going in a unitary Direction I think
there are certain aspects of the West
that are going in a horrifically bad
Direction horrifically quickly but there
are elements in the west where things
are going in a much healthier and better
Direction um so I don't think the West
as a whole moves like some big hulking
Mass uh I think there's Trends and it's
a question of which will win out and my
operating assumption which I think is
impossible to argue with is reality
always wins and that a worldview which
comports to reality which means based on
truth because that's what truth is that
which is real will in the long term
succeed but how long that long term is
is the question on the table and it's
certainly going to be a lot of bad
things to put a modly in the inter room
and and are currently happening so I
believe that the reason the elements of
the West are moving in the wrong
direction is an is one of ideas that yes
I actually don't think that we have free
will but I do think that we respond to
ideas humans okay some human I this you
think all humans are wired the same
mentally no definitely not okay yeah
okay I just don't think that we have
free will so I think we are all wired
and I think that 50% of us is hardwired
50% is malleable but the question is can
we choose in what direction to think
like we could we will probably go down a
very nonuseful rabbit hole right now if
we attack free will but just so I know
do you think humans have free will um I
think that's one of those things where
it's just a semantic discussion because
if people don't have free will it
appears as if they do you know what I
mean 100% it's talking circles perfect
okay so for this conversation I will
operate the way that I operate my daily
life which is I am influenced by ideas
and I believe I can influence other
people but this 50/50 thing doesn't pass
the sniff test with me because that
seems to me like lazy thinking it's re
this is where the science 5050 saying
the science even makes me tense but so I
have not gone in and pulled all the the
citations to to make sure that the
headlines that I'm reading are accurate
uh but I've heard that over and over and
over from people like Brett Weinstein
who I it back because I whenever there's
like oh these two sides are evenly
distributed that usually something
someone didn't do theom I agree and
that's probably true in the grand scheme
so we'll take it as sort of just
directional but this isn't me making up
that oh I feel like but the idea being
that ideas are going to be the thing
that influence the direction we're going
in so what I'm trying to figure out is
is um so with the base assumption I have
that you're a incredibly useful thinker
and that the world would be better off
for encountering your ideas that's the
spirit in which I'm trying to chase the
following thought down okay uh is
anarchism a red herring or because like
when I read your book the white pill
which is extraordinary and should be
required reading for anybody in the west
I've told you off camera how strongly I
feel about that book well you can't tell
an anist thing should be
required even if it's my book but what I
want to know is like that book doesn't
even seem to I don't remember it even oh
it does mention anarchism in the
beginning sure but like you certainly
don't put it forth as like and now we
need to be Anarchist so you don't
correct to fight this you don't have to
be an anarchist to be against the Soviet
Union so now that's put it modly thank
the Lord so the question becomes is
anarchy just a red herring and it's just
like a you thing and you're into it and
it's a fun idea and you play with it on
the weekends or is this like one of the
ideas that we need to put on the table
that we hope people will adopt in some
real where the rubber meets the road way
that will take those elements of the
West that are going very rapidly in the
wrong direction and help reorient them I
really would want to stop using the word
v in this conversation because I never
know who you're referring to and it
sounds like I'm being difficult so um
anarchism isn't a red herring because
anarchism is the norm for human behavior
and I'll give you some examples of
anarchist system which system which no
one thinks of as Anarchist but they take
for granted language is an anarchist
system there's no president of English
you can speak if you want to make a
language Tom and and you know talk it to
yourself it's going to have marginal
utility and marginal adoption there's a
reason reason English or some other
language historically have been a linga
franaqua sometimes it's mandated by the
government but a lot of times it's a
function of this is something
international trade or something like
that uh you can force your employees to
use proper English but slang is perfect
legitimate English language evolves
develops by infinite people making
marginal changes over time and over
space Cuisine is another Anarchist
system physics mathematics music these
are all systems of millions of people
throughout history making marginal
incremental changes moving the needle
and you're free to choose to adopt them
or not and in doing fashion and in doing
so everyone has or not everyone I'm
sorry a enormous amount of people have
benefit fitted and moved culture forward
and moved Humanity forward as a whole so
instead of thinking of anarchism as like
like a third political party it's more
of a system without a centralized State
control and if you think about how
common that is and how much we take that
for granted you'll see it's not a red
herring but is the basis for all that is
decent and good in
humanity okay uh am I trying to apply
Anarchy at the wrong level so I'm trying
to see if it if we would be better off
where who's we uh okay so I think some
people would be worse off because they'd
be hanging from lamposts interesting
tell me more I mean some of these evil
politicians who like in some of these
countries I mean like the reason I did a
book on North Korea as you know the re
one of the reasons North Korea hasn't
liberalized is because they understand
very well that if North Korea became
Freer they'd be coming for the dictators
and his minions and they'd be you know
putting them in the and with good reason
so it would not be better for everyone
if North Korea liberalized even though
be better for a huge percentage of that
population Kim Jong-un would have a big
problem so when I say we I mean humans
and I simply mean the vast majority of
humanity so my norstar when I try to
think through these problems is G gear
towards human flourishing for as many
people as possible because obviously
we're never going to be able to get it
for everybody uh but by way of quick
example so democracy beat out the
communism in the Soviet Union sure to me
that was just a straight line to this is
better yes um and can I want to add to
your point for the mouse traps people
have in their heads better doesn't mean
perfect correct and better doesn't mean
that some things didn't get worse it's a
net better and that's all we can do so I
agree with your point I just want to
make that clear because people have just
their brains just kick in they freak out
yeah no I I try to preempt the comment
sometimes where I'm like ah I know I
never called it a mouse trap but I think
that's exactly correct okay so that's
all I mean when I say we Humanity the
majority as close to everybody as we can
get making things better that this is
humans can flourish can spend time
defining that if it will help the
conversation but I don't know that we
but I don't know that I'm not looking I
don't know that the majority is the goal
because if there's a lot of horrible
people and if you look at books if you
look at TV shows if you look at podcasts
the majority are garbage but you
wouldn't say literature sucks or podcast
suck some podcasts many podcasts change
people's lives and have profoundly
positive consequences so when you're
looking at like the majority I think
that often is a misguided uh um goal I
think it's more like if you reach the
you know Ein Rand in her book The
Fountain Head at the very end spoiler
alert has the hero give a speech and the
opening line is you know I'm going to
paraphrase it thousands of years ago uh
some man figured out to to how to build
fire he was probably burned at the stake
that he taught his brothers to build so
I think a lot of times the majority is
the problem and I don't think that
they're reachable although they're they
would benefit as a consequence but if
you're trying to help them as your goal
it's missing the Mark I don't see a way
to avoid if I want to make my life
better I don't see a way to avoid
dealing with the masses do you no but
you don't have to deal the Ma I'm sure
Quest was never bought by majority of
Americans there's no product that 51% of
Americans consume not even a president
because yeah but now you've changed the
level again so you said majority yeah
yeah yeah but what I'm what I'm trying
to say is at at the level of governments
at States what's the what should be the
operating system there shouldn't be one
yep you don't like the word should well
there shouldn't be an Opera there
shouldn't be government that's an
anarchism means okay right but so the
absence of the state right anarchism
forgive me I will routinely make the
mistake of speaking of anarchism as if
it is rather than a relationship it is a
thing you've been clear it's just trying
to constantly be good about that my
apologies I do understand what you're
saying but again what I'm trying to
figure out is I think the bad ideas have
seeped into the West some elements of
the West are now racing into a horrible
Direction extremely quickly I'm trying
to identify what ideas people should be
you don't like that word I do I'll even
use a ought to be grabbing on in a
moralistic sense I think that some ideas
are more moral than others and so true
even at a minimum if I'm just trying to
figure out for my own life but I'm
nested inside of a system so I'm trying
instead of just talking at my sort of
micro level which is already nested
inside of a capitalistic democracy which
is having some troubles as of late by my
estimation um I'm trying to look to see
is this an idea set this being anarchism
a useful idea set at the level of a lack
of governing body or governing body so
that I can either adopt them myself and
try to spread them wider or be like yeah
this doesn't work where the rubber meets
the road and I've seen a ton of people
ask you these questions and it it will
often get either bogged down or it just
turns into comedy and I can never
[ __ ] like ah what the [ __ ] like am I
supposed to do this is it going to be
useful to lead people to human
flourishing or not that's where I'm
trying to figure out it will be useful
to lead some people and some people AR
you can't lead some people you can only
lead some people you can't lead
everybody so at the very least you're
going to have to pick and choose and
some people are going to be a net cost
as you're an entrepreneur you have to
have some Criterion some filtering
mechanism who's going to be working for
your company Y and some people are going
to be a net enormous net cost and that
that net cost can be uh pernicious and
spread throughout the company I'm sure
you've seen this over and over this is
this is not new to anyone who's even on
a small level involved in in
business I hope you're enjoying this
episode with Michael malice if you're
tired of trying to find the real truth
you have to strive to tell whether the
news that you're getting is actual real
reporting biased narratives trolling
selective reporting whatever the case
may be then you need to be using ground
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Newsom or use the link in the video
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sign up through my link you'll get 40%
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unlimited access to all their features I
really like ground news I think you guys
are going to love it they are doing
important work and I hope you're going
to check them out and stay informed and
get rid of your blind spots this is a
great way to do it with ground
news so there's two types of fil filters
right there's the filter where you keep
out people that you want and there's a
filter where you filter error and
there's a filter error where you let in
people that you don't want so my point
is if you are spreading ideas that are
valid and comport to reality uh and
maybe I should be more you know
proactive but I'm just despite being the
subject of book called ego and hebreus I
do have a sense of humility about what
impact I could possibly have I think at
a certain point you do reach the right
Minds people become activated and then
it's kind of like a spark setting a fire
um but in terms of its utility it's
enormously useful because instead of
wondering you know why are the
Republicans doing this why are the
Democrats doing this you know a it's for
power and you also know be they don't
believe what they're saying even as
they're saying it you're wasting your
breath in trying to engage with people
like I'll give you an example of what I
mean the best argument against gun
control isn't arguing with gun control
Advocates it's gun proliferation the
best argument for censorship is the fact
that it's impossible for me now to
censor a book I've used this example
many times 200 years ago if I didn't
want your book to exist what I got to do
I kill you I burn all the copies it's
it's ceases to exist now and if I told
you this 20 years ago I'd sound like a
lunatic I can take any book I can
duplicate it infinitely I can send it
anywhere on Earth at the speed of light
for free and I could encrypt it with a
magic spell such that only someone who
has the counter spell can read this book
so even if you kill me and you destroy
all the copies of my books that are on
this earth right now you still haven't
censored it cuz there's out there and
they could be infinitely replicated so
that is the answer to censorship instead
of of sitting here and talking past each
other about well is it appropriate for
this book to exist or this book to not
exist so the idea of anarchism in this
context is if the government says this
book is illegal there it is not morally
binding on you at all if Nancy Pelosi or
Donald Trump have an opinion it's only
of Merit in so far as this is an
impediment to work around as opposed to
you know I should really take this
person's opinion seriously after all
they are the speaker of the house that
is anarchism in practice if I'm
understanding you correctly I am sort of
looking at anarchism at the wrong level
that it really is a thing that you do at
the individual relationship level um yes
it's yes so would you think it then a
like if there were people out there just
campaigning hardcore to get nation
states to resend their nation state
goodness and adopt their the country
level organizing Principle as anarchism
would you be indifferent to that would
you be supportive of that would you be
against that I would be uh um
skeptical because if you I've always
said you don't need a majority you need
an alternative Elon Musk just having
Twitter I don't want to call it X sorry
Elon just having if Elon had had Twitter
during covid imagine how different the
conversation would be whether you like
it or not agreed if you have one Outlet
where there is a place for an
alternative view for a long time lefties
were having a complete meltdown because
Roger Al created Fox News right and it's
you had CBS NBC ABC CNN and then Here
Comes Fox and it's like holy crap
someone who takes right of Center views
seriously excuse me doesn't clown
conservatives they must be destroyed now
you know it's Off to the Races in terms
of of perspectives and channels point
being Fox never uh had the market of all
those others combined it was just one
alternative but just having that one
alternative is enormously powerful for
better for worse in terms of moving the
dynamic of the conversation so that is
kind of I think the key as long as you
have one in terms of the country though
that that's dangerous because if you
have this worldwide Global he hemony
where every part of the Earth has to be
under even Antarctica has to be under
the thumb of a country and and a
government and you have this one little
area that is like we're going to be
Sovereign and not recognized nation
states well if they make it work these
dominoes are going to start collapsing
and that very quickly means that
governments are going to start trying to
do what they can to invade that little
area anarchism isn't utopian at a
certain point even if you have the right
views an EV government evil government
can come in and Slaughter you all I mean
look at how many governments throughout
history have murdered religious people
for their views
peaceful religious people just killed so
it's a good bullwark against governments
as if you have a population that's
heavily armed and ready to prepare their
country that's going to be very tough to
take over as we as Afghanistan
demonstrated but at a certain point
again evil can win in the short term and
if they allowed this one Anarchist area
to exist The Jig would be up worldwide
so I would caution that place or that
population to like think this through
because right now and people don't
realize this because one of the
arguments against anarchism is well if
there's no Army then anyone can invade
there are many countries on Earth right
now with no military zero but they're
not invaded because they're there under
kind of the wing of other powerful
nation states who are forcing a
international hegemonic order but if you
have a country that's a threat to that
very quickly the dynamic changes because
now you're threatening the narrative and
the lie that has been spread throughout
the world and for the last 100 years
what is the lie that's government
Authority is legitimate and every part
of the Earth has to be under the thumb
of one government or another okay uh so
right now we are living through a very
fascinating moment where we are turning
back into a uni a multi-polar world from
many people listening to this will have
grown up in the whatever how many years
you want to clock it depending on if you
started at the fall of the Berlin wall
or the crumbling of the USSR but it's
roughly since the early 90s and it's
been Us hemony in the world um we're now
going back to where there are multiple
Powers certainly us China well I don't
think us it wasn't us hemony I don't
think most these nations had American
values agreed but you don't think that
us was the dominant Global superpower
with the reserve currency that when they
said do this people did that not
everybody I I always thought it had gery
as a monopoly as a function correct
right so I don't think the US had
Monopoly power over the world after the
fall of the Soviet Union certainly China
North Korea many African nations South
American countries they didn't have the
political influence you're just now
seeing China over the last call it 10 or
15 years really begins but I meant China
had influence over China right like
that's what I mean so a lot of these
countries although we were powerful
worldwide but like just by one way of
example the only reason China didn't
invade Taiwan is because us had
and so that's what I'm talking about
when I say hegemonic power and now China
is making noises like yeah we might oh
yeah because they're saying us is
getting weak we're getting powerful we
no longer have to listen to you and it's
a multi-polar yes I think that's
transition is correct yeah okay so the
reason I bring it up again I'm just
still trying to navigate where the edges
are I think I'm beginning to actually
understand this reasonably well I'm
going to try to present your thinking
back to you in a way that you will
recognize if any of of this breaks then
I'm still lost but let me try there's
something you just said that you've said
multiple times but it didn't sink in uh
until now that you just need an
alternative yes so I think I was trying
to apply anarchism at a level that you
would you said that you would caution
people again slow down really look at
because if you do it and you prove that
this works that it's going to cause
these bigger powers to attack you that
feels very sort of real politique and
can I give an example that's obvious
like when you have um uh um all like how
many of like drug legalization campaigns
were fought by like alcohol companies
right because if really you didn't know
this no yeah this is or or I remember
who it was point being if you have
people drinking less this is going to be
a threat to them so it's like behind the
scenes they're like we got to make sure
this gets dipped in the bud that's it
makes sensear but it makes sense horing
at the same time yeah oh yeah right so
in this context if you have an
alternative to the nation state wait a
minute this is going to be a big problem
for we got to make sure it gets nipped
in the butt okay don't apply it at the
state level God I worry that that word
won't feel right to you but um at that
highest level that organizes a
geographical reason region whatever we
want to call that I'll call it a state
or a
government we're good with that part
sure okay I it's it's it's not a
location it's a relationship no I
understand I'm I'm saying because I'm
was trying to apply it there it never
landed for you that that that I was
saying the right thing in terms of your
worldview right uh so don't apply it at
that level because it's a relationship
it's not a location uh that all the
incredible things that have come to pass
music fashion technology all of that
which very much are Anarchist people
come in they participate as they see fit
well I wouldn't say technology because
there was a lot of government
involvement there but okay my bad set
that aside uh so there are these groups
of things music and fashion being two
that named that are and Mathematics uh
that over time people have contributed
to nobody got to tell them how to
contribute they just came in they did
their thing and it either worked and
people thusly adopted it or it didn't
work and people ignored it right uh and
so there was no one group saying yes or
no that would be I just shout out to
Eric Weinstein who's going to have a
seizure right now because he thinks that
physics has been co-opted but that's a
whole another conversation uh so I get
what you're saying there so now this
becomes anarchism I believe you're
saying becomes a thing that you do at
that level that kind of level in your
interaction with other people voluntary
interactions whether it's creating a
podcast building your own company
whatever but it's going to exist inside
of another structure that you believe is
um invalid yes okay everything just has
corrected my to my perspective anarchism
is that alternative so for instance I
know one thing we haven't talked about
it yet but one thing that really drove a
lot of my wanting to question is that
you don't vote you don't believe people
can vote their way out of the problems
that we Face correct and I think
although this part I'm not sure about
you would tell people you're wasting
your time voting and there's no point
nope I don't believe in should I don't
tell people what to do I didn't say
should I said you're wasting your time
well that means you shouldn't vote you
didn't see the word should you implied
it right so there's a lot of people who
if they vote it perfectly I don't have a
problem people wasting their time yep I
have and if and I don't problem people
delusional if you want to be delusional
knock yourself out there are a lot of
people where for them voting is like if
you're an African-American and like your
grandfather couldn't vote and now you
want to go to the polls and it's going
to mean something to you more power to
you but is that just an emotional
satisfaction to in and of itself if
that's what it does for you great if I
want to eat a candy bar that's fine but
there's this view which is thankfully
very strongly decreasing in America at
least that we can't vote our way out of
this and this idea which was promulgated
among conservatives s did you say that
people are believing that l yes they're
believing it less that they
can't okay they're more losing faith in
voting correct correctly because for a
long time especially on amongst
conservatives it was because Democrats
had um Congress for 40 years from 52 to
94 54 to 94 rather um there was this
view okay we just got to vote in the
right people and this is going to get
fixed or better and they vote in the
so-called right people it's like well
they're really rhinos and they keep
voting in the Republicans and it keep
being somehow being rhinos at a certain
point you realize that Republican party
that you are so loyal to has never and
will never shrink the size of the
government well it's the democrat's
fault okay there's no Universe even the
one where they be Thanos where the
Democratic party ceases to exist so
you're dealing you call anarchism is
called utopian there's this is a fantasy
land that it's going to be hegemonic
100% Republicans and they're going to
shrink down the government to the size
of what the Constitution was
so that I think is a very healthy thing
this understanding that voting your way
out of this you can't vote yourself free
and you can't spend Yourself Rich um I
think that is a big uh component I think
people are starting to get that I'm not
saying don't vote though because because
again I'm not a contan people have this
idea and I'm not saying you're sharing
it at all which drives me crazy that if
they're like well what if everyone
thought like you so if everyone agreed
with you wouldn't vote then you'd be
completely destroyed if everyone thought
like me we wouldn't any murders we would
have any child abuse no robberies no
theft very few rapes so that's not a
concern it's good that's nice Uh I that
is very interesting you don't want to
what lie Fair thank you I appreciate
that uh okay so going back to this idea
that there are certain ideas that are
better off for human flourishing and
there are ideas that are worse off why
not tell people hey if you're going to
vote if you're going to vote vote for
XYZ I don't know what their everyone
individual's values are I don't know
what voting is helping them accomplish
and I I you can't vote this would make
sense how if you're like okay Michael I
need a dentist now this dentist might be
more expensive but it's he's a better at
it but you only have like a minor you
know plaque this guy is cheaper but he's
you know it's not as good these are two
things to solve for right and you could
see the as the pluses and minuses of
each one your vote's immaterial like I
can pick my dentist I can't pick my
politician it my vote is of no
statistical significance it's just a
ritual and if people want to engage in
rituals more power to them but this
belief that if I vote for this guy I get
this guy in no other context do we take
this as acceptable the idea I go in the
supermarket I'm like all right I want to
buy this Cola let's have a poll it's
bizarre it makes as much sense that my
neighbors should have a determination of
how much money money is stolen by the
government as they should have
determination over what music I listen
to what clothing I wear uh what books I
read it it or or some Aristocrat like if
I don't care what Camila Parker BS has
to say about my money why should I care
about someone just because they're
geographically approximate to me okay so
would you like it if everybody were
voting for all the cabinet positions
you're running this because you actually
know something about it you're running
that because you know something about it
would that give you the level of
granularity where you'd be like yeah
that makes sense to vote for and let's
get individual fums by these different
people no because you can't pick you're
an entrepreneur you can't preemptively
pick winners you can't just sit down and
be like just I don't know I I if I had
to bet money on if I was doing a protein
bar company I would put my money in your
uh um if I had like slots like I'd pick
my money on you but that doesn't imply
at all that there's someone out there
right now who's going to completely
outsell you and and run the table
against you and I'm sure that's going to
happen at some point that's just that's
just how the market works the problem
with picking winners preemptively is we
all have very very finite knowledge and
especially something politics everyone
has their lives to live you got to have
someone who's going to speak for you on
abortion and environmentalism and
Taxation and War it's like having your
lawyer be your dentist and also be your
account I don't I don't if what just
proposed does not land for you I don't
understand what you mean when you say
that so you're what I hear you saying is
you don't want one person in charge of
all these disperate things they
effectively know nothing about I I know
what I'm saying is I'm not in a position
and no one is to preemptively be like
just because this person knows a certain
amount of about protein bars that he
should be in charge of this entire
industry or that he was going to govern
it toward the human flourishing as
opposed to self being self-serving or
looking out for his buddies or be
extremely conservative and and fight
Innovation because it's worked a certain
way in the past therefore it's going to
work their way in the future yeah it
feels like either I'm not understanding
your position as well as I thought it
was or you're being inconsistent so uh
you agreed that at the what I call the
state level hopefully we have a working
understand do you mean like literally
like like the government or you mean
like Texas yeah the at the government
level okay so a nation state so that
anarchism is going to live within that
yes so now that we know this is not
Utopia and anarchism as a mindset as an
idea set that people can't adopt that
will either move them towards human
flourishing or move them away uh the
reality is that we vote people into
those positions so now when I go to a
which I will say I use the word ought
when I mean a moral obligation that
there there is a more or less moral path
so for instance I think people have a
moral obligation to vote for freedom of
speech speech and I think I read
somewhere that you hate the word fre or
the phrase freedom of speech you can
certainly debate that uh I also think
that people have a moral obligation but
freedom of speech isn't on the ballot
right if there was a referendum I could
wrap my head around what you're saying
cool then that's all I'm trying to get
to I'm just trying to get to where you
uh are operating within a system and you
think that that system has outcomes that
can be better or worse and therefore
people my language ought to do something
about it but doing something isn't
voting don't you get it like the if I
want to fight for freedom of speech the
best thing I can do is Elon buying
Twitter as opposed to me voting for a
Republican or Democrat do something
about it create a uh um system that is
uh impermeable to attack from nefarious
actors of which the government will
always be the primary one you know how
like apple made it so there's a pass
that they can't even get into your
iPhone even if the government asks for
it that's what I'm talking about okay is
this all predicated on your belief that
the government is corrupt and no matter
what you vote for you're going to get
what you get regardless of what the
populace tells the government they want
the populace is not capable of wanting
anything or telling anything uh there
people say things you studied enough
evolutionary psychology to understand
that people say a certain things and
what they say is of no relevance what
matters is revealed values everyone will
tell you they're a great mother everyone
will tell you that they love their
spouse I'm a terrible mother Mar are you
I'm terrible well shut your mouth um
people will will tell you with a
straight face that their F monogamy even
as they're cheating with their spouse
the ability of human beings to
compartmentalize and have cognitive
dissonance without missing a beat is
infinite and and this is well known
within uh evolutionary psychology
circles so people will most people do
not have IND independent thoughts so
they will this there's a reason why um
cultural values are not homogeneous
across nations in San Francisco there's
going to be enormous social pressure to
have left of center values and to bend
the knee to those around you in if
you're in tran you're going to be far
more amable toward having radical Muslim
views or or Muslim views as a whole so
people's views the masses are not a
function of this kind of Enlightenment
nonsense where I sat down and I read all
the great books and I've come to my
conclusion independently that is not at
all how people reach their views people
want to pass and as HL Menin one of my
great Heroes said the average man does
not want to be free he simply wants to
be safe and we saw that
resoundingly uh during covid you know
conservatives have this thing they've
been saying at least since Nixon that
there's this silent majority of these
like hardcore minus and they hate the
government and they just if that were
true people would be campaigning on
minarchism and no one is there it's a
complete fallacy uh that people want
this kind of sense of enormous
responsibility over their own lives okay
uh do you only have interest in speaking
to individuals or do you think it is
useful in moving people towards human
flourishing to speak to people on mass I
only speak to individuals okay but but
the individuals have audiences yep so I
like if I'm at a party like let's let's
let's give it counter example
and people want to start having a
political discussion I'm not interested
I will gladly have this conversation and
there's an audience so I am speaking to
people on mass but again that's just an
example of how a hierarchy is inevitable
you're not literally capable of talking
to a group they you're only capable
talking to a group either you're giving
a speech maybe there's some questions
but even when there's questions when the
audience you're still speaking that
individual people cannot speak as groups
because you can't hear
them uh people can't speak as groups
uh people can't speak as groups I
disagree with that but I think that's
probably in a literal sense you can't
because you they'll be yelling it's a
it's a sure but you cast a vote you can
get a sense you can get a sense through
see there you go if I'm if I'm casting a
vote I'm not speaking I'm delegating
someone to speak for me that's my point
that's your point say that in another
way meaning if you're asking are you
speaking for individuals or masses if
I'm speaking to a senator I am speaking
for an individual and ostensibly he has
the masses behind him but that's not
even true because even in that even the
senator has 60% of the vote there's 40
people per of people who didn't vote for
him and some of that 40 are going to
like what he's doing at that moment and
some of that 60 are going to hate what
he's doing at that moment so you can
only speak to individuals I'm not
speaking to like the audience hears what
we're saying y but they're not speaking
to us in any literal sense even in the
comments it's still going to be
individuals saying things which some are
very useful some are not yeah I think
I'm playing with a slightly different
idea so when two two well-intentioned
intelligent people think the other
person is crazy they have different base
assumptions so life has taught me so I'm
trying to figure out you and I believe
something different about people or the
world and I haven't yet figured out what
it is my most recent guess was that you
think you can sway the individual but
that so many people that make up the
collective are incapable and uned and
I've heard you say they don't have souls
and say that you're not kidding so even
just pushing it all the way to some
people just don't have the cognitive
horsepower I think you would agree with
sure uh
to be a useful speaker on behalf of the
masses they're never going to get the
message nor are they going to be able to
broadcast to elected officials what they
want them to do right that doesn't make
them bad people either I want to make
that clear because the mouse traps are
going off people yes that's I think very
smart to say that I just want to make
that really really clear if I am
contributing value put food in the table
for my kids I'm a a good dad who's there
that is a heroically moral person right
this lie which drives me crazy which is
promulgated through our corporate media
and through our government schooling
system that everyone has to have an
opinion on everything is completely
fallacious and
deranged feels like you're opening a new
Ken of worms do you feel I've said
something no but I mean this is
something that's just you haven't said
that at all but it's something that is
so pervasive in our culture that when I
go on shows and there some issue of the
moment and the issues are kind of like
one year it's going to Min skirts it's
like fashion right you got to care about
this transgender bathrooms what's your
opinion we didn't care about it five
minutes ago we're not care about five
minutes from now but you this is the
most important thing happening in
America right now and if you as someone
in our position who's just runs their
mouth for living to some extent it's
like you know what I haven't thought
about there nuanced you have to have
position to the point where they'll tell
you you're lying if you or you don't
want to say because you're going to
alienate XY and Z it's it's Bonkers it's
interesting I take a very different
approach to that which is um I will
think out loud about any topic okay and
so I'll just I'll tell people look I
don't know about this so there's in
inevitably going to be Nuance I'm
totally blind to that would radically
change the conclusion of my thinking but
just going from first principles here is
how I would build this up so for
instance when I was first asked about
Israel Palestine I was like hey let's
talk about something I couldn't know
less about if I tried but I will just
tell you that if the Palestinians don't
believe in their children having a
better future here on Earth than they're
having you're going to have problems
forever whether that's because it's a
martyr thing and they're like oh my kids
are better off dying in the here and now
because they'll go to heaven that's way
better or they're just like well Israel
is making life miserable here and so my
kids are going to have a worse life than
I have so this is terrible in either of
those reasons why they think that you've
got a problem now that's not me
proposing a solution beyond the
ham-handed you have to find a way for
them to care more about their which is
what you see me that's what's amazing
when people are happy like that's the
solution it's like that's a handwave
that's not a solution it's just like
well the problem should be resolved yeah
great thank you why I think that's
valuable is I think everything starts
with thinking up from first principles
and so now it's like what what I want to
do in my life is encounter people like
you that give me a better ability to
think through hard problems but I don't
think you're the norm at all okay why
does that matter I don't think people
even capable of thinking in terms of RIS
principles in fact they're they're
violently opposed to it I mean if you
look at movies from the 80s most people
would be like you're eating raw fish and
these same people now would tell you
about the differences between uni and
like the Hokkaido uni versus Saigon and
I'm a foodie they had to be they don't
think in terms of why do we eat this
versus that and if a lot of people are
eating this in in Japan maybe it's not
going to make you throw up immediately
right like maybe they know something you
don't they don't think like that they
just take what is in their culture as a
given and never look further than that
and that is is the default setting as my
buddy Bridget fasy calls it like people
leave with factory settings and they
never even think for a second as you are
doing well what's underneath this and
what's underneath that they they really
run away screaming from that kind of
mindset okay so you've encountered that
in your adult life and you've had a
reaction you haven't I have and I'll
tell you mine but I am far more
interested in hearing yours um so once
you realize that maybe at 12 maybe at 22
I have no idea when that occurred to
okay so at 17 you realize oh my God
these people are stuck on default
factory settings they some of them have
no soul your words yes uh and now what
what do you do you took away from that
is that when you found or started
pursuing what led you to anarchism
you're like I'm just going to deal at
the individual levels things like
fashion no it it was more like I didn't
I went to Bucknell which is this country
club School in Middle Pennsylvania which
I would say is probably the worst
mistake in my life was going there i'
never met people like this before coming
from Brooklyn um they are very bright
very
hardworking very
intelligent and fundamentally Limited in
their thinking and I didn't think this
this grouping of characteristics was
possible before and I would think okay
maybe it's possible like an aberant
individual but this was all of them uh
almost 21 and it was funny do you know
my I'm I'm guessing you know my other uh
you know my John Durant no oh he does he
does wild Ventures he I edited his book
The Paleo Manifesto I saw that on your
book list yeah he's great um he had a
friend whose name I won't mention and it
codified this mindset it was just like
it's like holy crap I'm seeing In the
Flesh because I we're playing a game
called would you rather right if you
played this game it's a fun game and I I
don't remember what it was but was
something like would you rather um lose
a foot or be morbidly obese for the rest
of your life and he goes goes neither
give me some good choices and in his
brain you have this kind of box that you
work in and when you leave this
framework it's just like weird and gross
and it's the same kind of people who
would be like that's like saying would
I'd rather have the flu or cancer it's
like you can't you don't know which to
pick like you don't know it's the flu
but because in their head if it's two
bad things a preference is a desire
preference is not if God forbid I found
out some one of my friends has cancer
I'm going to be like I hope it's
melanoma not pancreatic I don't want my
any of my friends to have cancer almost
but if they do some deserve it I run
with a different crowd than you if they
do you certainly want the one that's
curable but that's going in two
directions and they can't handle
that okay uh man this is very
interesting so okay that was your
takeaway when you realize some people
have factory settings there's just
nothing they can do yeah and they're
violently opposed to being pushed out of
them because it's weird and like what
are you doing
they they want to be in that very nice
house and this is what your wife looks
like this is what your music that you
listen to this is what your house looks
like it's it's very
Stepford yes agreed we've encountered
the same reality in life um my quick
thumbnail sketch was I graduate from
Film School start a business in building
that business I end up in the inner
cities all because I just want to tell
stories and while I'm in the inner
cities I don't know if I'm ever going to
succeed so I'm just like I need to make
this as good as possible and I'd come to
realize that a wise way to live your
life is to assume that your biggest
dreams are never going to come true
you're going to struggle with something
every day so what would you do and love
if you knew you were going to fail and
so oh my God yeah we could have a whole
thing about that yes oh that's awful no
it's beautiful oh my God it is the most
important question anybody can ask
because then you live not the question
the first part your dreams never going
to come true yeah PE people should
assume pursue it with everything you
have but make sure you're pursuing
something where it's not just about the
having of it it's about the pursuing oh
yes oh yeah oh yeah I agree completely
yeah yeah it's not you die in the way to
the the mountain you're 100% right you
better enjoy mountain climbing as cimu
put it maybe it's not about the happy
ending maybe it's about the journey yes
of course of course correct you're
absolutely correct beautiful way to say
so uh but I don't like that assume cuz
you're telling them not to hope no I'm
not anyway we'll go there because these
are all utterly fascinating threads to
pull on uh but just to finish this point
so um because I am like I want to see
these guys have an amazing life I'm
going to teach you everything I know
about entrepreneurship so you can
control your life because to me
entrepreneurship is just the ability to
think from first principles and apply it
to your real life can I add one thing
please if Government schools cared about
these inner city kids that's what they
would be teaching them in day one
because these kids have no resources but
if they knew how the tax system worked
how to start a business they'd have to
hustle a lot of them how much better off
with their lives be it's it's and a lot
of them are highly intelligent but are
trapped in these situations and the
system is designed to keep them trapped
in these situations you have just
eloquently articulated the animating
Spirit of my entire life yes so uh I'm
there I'm teaching everybody anything
they want to know literally I'm like
I'll help you build a competitive
nutrition company uh and what I found
was that 98% of the people did nothing
with those ideas 2% did but I had one
guy who his life changed completely from
encountering these ideas but he got in a
fist fight with one of the other guys
that I spent time teaching these ideas
to for drum roll please starting to read
so his friend quite literally punched
him in the face said you've changed
you've started reading and so in that
moment something in my spirit broke and
I was like I have to give up on adults
and so what I realize is if you ever
hear me talk talking to adults I'm
simply the bat symbol in the sky and I'm
just I'm throwing up things that I
believe will make people's lives better
but I I know that the vast majority of
humanity are going to ignore these but
the 2% that will hopefully say better I
know remember I'm just trying to map
your thinking no but I'm agreeing with
you yeah yeah I'm trying to find where
where are things exactly what I was
saying yes so uh because I have to give
up on adults and this is where we
disconnect I have now pointed myself at
doing entertainment for
what I call the age of imprint or what
is known as the age of imprint what the
Japanese call Shonen which translates as
the few years so it's from 11 to 15 when
kids really start pushing back against
their parents and they start drinking of
culture so I'm like to your point if we
are influenced by culture and I want to
positively influence people's lives what
I need to do is influence our culture
and you started out by saying the only
reason that people could possibly buy
into the legitimacy of the state is
because they're inculcated with that
belief from the time there too or
whatever yes and so I'm saying oh then
that works amazing so don't mind me
while I make comics and video games
about
empowering things that will make your
life better buried in a story but like
think Star Wars Empire Strikes Back like
that's my jam right Yoda gave real life
advice if you take Yoda's advice your
life will actually be better Morpheus
gives real life advice if you take his
advice your life will be better but I'm
like well then what that proves to me is
that if you can inculcate them with dumb
ideas then you should be able to
inculcate them with good ideas that's
not true and that really is
heartbreaking well we've at least found
where we disconnect one gr of poison is
not the same as one gr of nutrition
there's an asymmetry so just because
like you can teach a penguin to swim you
can't teach it to fly right so just
because you can ruin a mind does not
mean you can fix it keep going man but
there's nothing else to say I mean when
when you people have this is what I was
talking about the 50-50 before we tend
to whenever I in my brain have this my
brain feeds me like the Symmetry I'm
like whoa whoa whoa whoa hold on because
it's not always like both sides are the
same that that's something I think we
all should be very careful about I'll
use the word should in this context
those us interested in ideas because
it's a very common uh misstep to be like
well you know both sides end up being
identical even if they're maybe broadly
identical you're going to have
differences on a granular level and
those differences might be very
important wow okay that one cut
but am I wrong no that's why it cuts
okay yeah that is uh I find myself I
will spend an inordinate amount of time
when this interview is over rebuilding
my emotional commitment to uh helping
improve people because that's
devastating and on its face true but
think about this way like I've played
enough role playing games I'm sure you
have Final Fantasy right so snakes can
bite you and give you Venom they can't
bite you and give you healing right it
only works in One Direction
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Theory that's sort of true so I I've
asked myself over and over and over why
is every virus or bacteria bad they're
not all bad what stomach biomes yeah of
course and so then you realize oh that
just isn't true we're just aware of the
ones that make us feel bad but there's
no healing Venom from snakes there is no
healing Venom from snakes however if you
take the poison of an iasa plant and you
do it just right supposedly though I've
not done it uh it can help you anyway
I'm just saying that
there you you laid out a principle
instead of me trying to chase down that
analogy uh you laid out a principle that
there is an inherent asymmetry between
how easy it is to break a mind and how
difficult it is to fill it with the
right ideas life bears that out however
life also Bears out all the beauty all
the wonderment all the awe all the love
and connections so again going back to
my initial thesis that we're automat
anyway I cannot stop myself from doing
what I believe will make somebody's life
better I literally can't stop myself
even when it is uh stressful or overly
taxing on myself okay um but I love it I
love it and so that then leads me to
this whole idea that ideas matter ideas
may be the only thing that matter and
what is the way in which I can
contribute to giving people good ideas
that will help them uh lead a more
fulfilling life which is largely what I
mean when I say human flourishing well
that's great I I don't disagree with
that okay so slotting into that
framework it is I think the the point
that we disagree and and when we're
staring at it closely it doesn't feel
like it's a big deal but then it echoes
out to I think you and I do very
different things is that sense of it's
easy to break a mind it's hard to um get
it going in the right direction but my
entire worldview is predicated on and
all of my actions are predicated on I
can do that and so um I look at
everything through the lens of
efficacy and I have a few feeling that
like every time I try to make anarchism
make sense through the lens of efficacy
of making people's lives better that's
where we keep yeah I'm
noty interesting uh first of all it I
don't think of myself as having Maybe
I'm Wrong as this is kind of get over
yourself perspective that I have it's
just like if I I was not put on the if I
sat here and said with a straight face
even if it were true you were put on
this Earth to bring about an anarchist
you know system it's like okay let's
rain it in this kind of speaks to what
you're saying about the dreams kind of
you know being impossible but what I do
know that I can say with a straight face
that I've been put on this Earth so far
is
to create and tell stories and speak my
truth um and that I think is and be
entertaining in so far as I'm able that
I think in many ways accomplishes what
you are consciously trying out to do do
you have a filter by which you decide
what ideas you're going to
pursue yes that's a great question
so my legacy what I'm most concerned
about to sound P be as pompous as
possible is is not my podcast it's my
books like I the books is something
where if I'm gone this still going to be
on a shelf so for me when I take on a
project I want to be like this is
something that should be said and no one
is saying it and I'm going position to
do so so that's what I look at when I
pick on a project like a good example is
when I did my book on North Korea um I
knew there's no possibility of
liberating North Korea through my
minations what I knew I could do what I
hope to do is all I want to do my very
and I'm I'm sure you agree with this as
well to have when you have finite
achievable goals even that's why I tell
people to go to the gym if you're seeing
those numbers go up week to week it's
such great motivation because you have
indisputable concrete almost artistic
proof that things are going in the right
direction through your actions and that
sense of I can make things better is
intoxicating so my whole goal with that
North Korea book was to there's a camera
in North Korea there's this big clown
Kim jangel ha haa look at this Carnival
and all I wanted to do with my little
finite clout is move that camera just a
little bit because behind this clown
like the Joker the Batman is a clown
there just like the Joker there's a lot
of bodies corpses children and I'm like
just look behind him and then I I was
instrumental in having that happen now
no one thinks of North Korea as a joke
but when this this before the book came
out thanks in part to South Park and I'm
not yelling at them because they at
least brought attention to this country
which no one even knew about but people
like haha funny like what they do the
arong they have these big festivals and
they say these crazy things they dress
in these badges now everyone everyone
it's just a given that like my God like
what a horrible place these poor people
so having been part of the and I wasn't
alone in this being able to move that
needle and conversation that is just
really something I feel very proud of at
having
accomplished why have you focused on
North Korea and the rise and fall of the
USSR why those two because I think there
are a couple of things that Americans
don't understand at least a couple of
things and I was in a position to talk
talk about Americans are still
fundamentally naive about the nature of
evil Americans I maybe westerners more
broadly think evil is someone with a
wacky mustache pounding a Podium talking
in a crazy language they don't realize
evil is that next door neighbor who will
be delighted to turn you in and your
family to the cops simply because it's
going to make them feel important this
never enters their head I wasn't even
aware because when I was doing the white
pill and learning about the secret
police in these different countries I
had been under the impression that it
was things like I'm captive KGB takes me
and they're like hey you know uh you can
stay here for 20 years or you can
confess that when you were at Tom's
house you and Tom were plotting to kill
Stalin so what's it going to be it's
like oh yeah my he wouldn't shut up he
he hates him they're like great just
sign this and your you know what I mean
like but what I learned is the stazi the
East German secret police there was a
woman um and who interviewed her for one
of her books stazzy land he goes we
didn't even have to pay them they were
tripping over themselves to call us
because they wanted to feel important
they wanted to feel that they had
something over somebody and that is so
much more Sinister because any
dictatorship you really need buyin from
a lot of people because you're not you
only have so many eyes and ears you need
you need those snitches you need those
those uh turn coats from the General
populace and by empowering people's
sense of I got something over somebody
I'm big cuz he's small and I say this as
a very small man that is something I
don't think Americans get because
Americans are fundamentally kind and and
good nature never met a stranger kind of
thing and it's like guys this is
something that is not Universal so and
also I I one of the reasons I wrote the
white pill was so many people I know in
the circles I travel in
are convinced that it's a wrap the the
West is done whatever reason they have
at the moment it's over we can't
possibly win and I'm like the good guys
won from a far weaker position
bloodlessly over a far more entrench or
malevolent flow in our lifetimes and you
guys don't know the story and you can't
expect the New York Times to tell you
because the blood's on their hands so
I'm like I'm gonna do something about
this and I did so did you write that
because you thought once people
understand this they will see it in
others or they will see it in themselves
or both in others I don't think my
audience
are I I I never even thought of that I I
don't think there's very many people in
my audience who are like ecstatic to be
calling the cops on their neighbor for
not wearing a mask it's interesting
Jordan Peterson introduced me to an idea
that has been profoundly useful in my
life which is uh hey dear people that
can hear the sound of my voice don't
think of yourself as the one that would
hide and Frank your attic think of
yourself as the person who's the Nazi
guard correct now you might be the Nazi
guard that's like your your kid is 12
right no he's 14 no he's 12 right to
make sure that they survive um but you
still end up being the Nazi guard
because you have a family and you've got
to keep a roof over their head you're
not necessarily himler but you end up as
one of the bad guys and I was like whoa
that is a profoundly useful exercise to
keep me honest even if it's just to not
be silent and so it was that idea that
really got me CU originally my podcast
was all just about um mindset and then
Co hit and I started feeling like a
coward because it was like oh God this
BLM thing is kicking off and I feel
weird about it but I don't want to say
anything and like there were just a lot
of things happening and I was like oh
Jesus and so finally I was like o I
don't like the way this makes me feel
like a coward and I need to recognize
you know what ran said do because I've
read her book but please which book uh
she I'm assuming you're G to quote uh
God what's the big one the main one no
this isn't from it's one of her
interviews she said I'm not brave enough
to be a coward so I think that was your
position she you're like wait a minute
if I keep my mouth shut the costs are
going to wait the benefits yes yes even
on an internal level on an internal
level that was the thing I was most
worried about I'm not brave enough to be
a coward that's interesting I don't know
that my brain can handle that but uh
yeah so that really then did change the
certainly the course of the show for
better or worse but
um okay
so it is interesting to me that you
didn't think that you would sway people
from seeing that themselves because
reading reading your book so I I often
refer people to what I call the trifecta
of evil it's a series of books I think
everybody should read uh the gulag
archipelago um red famine rise and fall
of the Third Reich and when you sorry
and Ma the untold
story I'll put I'll put the red famine
as a as a honorable mention and they're
just brutal like it it's unrelenting yes
and those really woke me up now that
I've read the white pill I put it in
that Pantheon oh my God holy [ __ ] wow
well so I'll even push it farther I
don't think most people will read the
goog archipelago it's a thousand pages
of a guy screaming at the top of his
lungs about a level of inhumanity you
just can't possibly imagine there's no
payoff the white pill has a payoff the
gag archipel you leave this you're like
now what am I supposed to do interesting
that wasn't my beef with the gulag
archipelago it was just the the
unrelenting density of the horror the
screaming the I mean it was just like
whoa this is hard and so as an
experience is just hard so yours builds
to a climax which I think is what you're
getting to so you lay out all this
horror and then it's like and you can do
this um
but your book feels like a um a more
accessible version of the GG archipelago
yes that was my one of my big goals so
if I've achieved that I'm delighted to
hear that very very very much so um so
in doing that in writing that you just
for you it's just as simple as don't
forget no no no no no no no no but that
book first of all as someone who's born
in the Soviet you
it is um it it's
um I don't know if cathartic is the word
but it's it's I think it's important for
those of us who can to give testimony to
those who have suffered and lost their
lives and are being forgotten and I
think it's if you have that power or at
least for me to be like this this is
important because something bad happens
if we don't do that I don't I'm not even
going as far as that just in and of
itself when
these people's lives were destroyed
Millions for a long time and now it's
almost being regarded as a kitchy joke
so if I have the capacity as someone who
tells stories to be like hold on a
minute like these were families whose
you know lives ma many many people they
shouldn't be forgotten or certainly
sneered at uh and I have the capacity to
do something about that that's important
to me with my value system I think it's
also important that
um so much of I one of things I hate as
you've heard me say many times is
cynicism which uh you know my great hero
Albert Kimu fought with every fiber of
his beinga and I do as well this idea of
like what's the point it's so lazy like
I'm sure can you I'm sure there's a
parallel version of Tom that was like H
there's already protein bars like what's
the point we need another protein right
it was so easy and I'm sure you all the
time when there's pitches where people
it's so easy to find reasons why this
can't work you can never be an you know
what I tell I I give networking talk
sometimes and you've probably heard me
give this advice I tell them I go if you
want to be an author for example I go go
to Barnes &
Noble take a look around at all those
shitty shitty books that could be you
you could be that terrible author who's
all their friends are like how did this
get a book deal it's terrible this this
is horrible but that could be you but
when you put it in those terms all of a
sudden The Impossible becomes oh okay I
can be as bad as this you know horrible
writer or the moment
so I this sense of hopelessness I think
is spread by Design because if you teach
people especially the fighters that it's
a lost cause you don't have to fire a
shot You've Won they're going to go home
you know unpack their weapons and just
sit in front of the computer and you
you've completely conquered them so that
is something I wanted to Galvanize
people to fight for their Liberties and
to appreciate and also to give thank you
to you know the people in these
countries who fought you know
insurmountable odds and who won and and
and you know there there there's this
veneration of war in the west which
which I not just in the west which I
understand because unless you regard as
heroic how are you going to recruit
people and sometimes war is necessary
but isn't it so much better when you win
peacefully isn't it so much better when
there aren't millions of dead people and
orphans and and you know widows when
it's when the bad guys just go home and
they're like you know what it's a wrap
and just overnight things get freed that
to me is the most beautiful thing uh and
that beautiful story is not part of our
um cultural vernacular so I'm like all
right I like this is something more
people need to know about how did the
USSR break so bad so
fast I mean this is that's the whole I
mean I don't have a you I I just
recommend you to go to white pill
book.com and read that story I mean
gradually you know it was a Hemingway
who said how'd you go bankrupt two ways
gradually then suddenly I think it's
worth exploring so I'll lay out what I
think happened but obviously you know
this a lot better than I do you're
spoiling the book the USSR breaks up
yeah right spoiler alert happen back in
the 90s everybody uh it and the reason
this is one thing I can't tell if
there's friction between us on or not
but I really believe that if you
introduce somebody to a better idea that
they can actually steer their life and
the lives of others in a better
Direction yes I agree so I want people
to read the white pill and gulg
archipelago and about ma because I feel
that we are moving in a more and more
authoritarian Direction I think you've
rightly said Canada has bigger problems
than the us but I'm still super freaked
out as a child of the 80s watching
what's happening yes correct so anyway
what seems like after reading all the
books I've read with the most um special
finger put on yours is that you you had
a sequence of men who were so violent
and so Sinister that people became
terrified very fast and that earlier yes
and that your earlier supposition that
people don't want freedom they want
security people realized they had to lie
to get the security and so they would
snitch they would make things up they
would confess they would whatever they
needed to do to protect themselves to
protect their family and then uh in the
interview with you and Jordan Peterson
Jordan said something I thought was
pretty interesting because it really
shook my thinking of of why I ought to
be afraid of uh totalitarian Rule and
I've always thought that look this is a
problem of doing something top down as
soon as you have top top down
authoritarian rule you're G to have a
problem he said no that's not the
problem the problem is that everybody
begins lying and then it's all lies all
the time everybody lies about everything
everywhere always and so there's no
trust in the society people don't say
what they believe to be true and now all
of a sudden you just get lost somewhere
in this giant basket of lies and people
are then able to manipulate you and
essentially create any kind of vile
state that they want and people just
clam up because they're so afraid
they're so Covetous of little moments of
power they're Covetous of security and
so it when you have Lenin take over with
the bolik Revolution and then all the
things that he promised freedom freedom
of speech like all the stuff that he's
going to give to the workers once they
take over they take over and then he
still doesn't give it to them and he
realizes very quickly like we have to
stamp this out with a level of we have
to stamp out disent with a level of
Cruelty that is truly unimaginable
unless you read the book yes and so that
desire for safety and brag about it brag
about it tell me more brag about the
brutality like they weren't like oh sh
Shucks we got to kill these people
they're like no no we want we want blood
to flow like we're wiping we're going to
liquidate the bushwa it's not just you
know they're not going to be landlords
anymore we're going to destroy these
people as as a whole so leveraging
people's Petty resentments well no just
the idea that we're going to be we're
going to be killing a lot of people why
do people sign up for that because it's
their it's their why do people sign up
for hating the out group yes take the
coocks right so that one I found
shocking but then you're like yeah I get
it you've got the better farmer is how
I'll read kulok they better and you tell
the working class hey these guys are
aren't better peasants they're they're
evil essentially they're rich cuz you're
you're poor cuz they're rich exactly
Rich yeah yeah rightow two horses
exactly uh and so we're g to take away
their stuff their unjustly earned stuff
and so I get why the peasants are like
yeah [ __ ] them and that's the the kind
of mil I'm always on the lookout for
where there's Petty resentments that you
can take care of because otherwise I
just don't know why people would sign up
for we're going to go Smash and grab
these people like you need that petty
resentment I think well status people
always want to humans are status seeking
creatures and if this gives me an excuse
that he's bad I'm good and the more I
hate him the better I am well you've
just weaponized me right and you think
naturally people just take up to that
yes I mean human beings Define
themselves by opposition there was a
book called The nurture assumption and
she talks about how if you have a group
of kids and adults the kids will
perceive themselves as kids they're not
adults right if the adults leave they
become boys and girls because I'm not a
boy I'm a girl I'm not a girl and boy so
human beings Define themselves like what
they are not and this so all this kind
of Kumbaya you know we're we're all
citizens of the world nonsense is
completely impossible in practice
because there's going to be someone I'm
against I remember I was my friend was
having a dinner party in in Brooklyn and
it turned out everyone at the dinner
table was either first or second
generation immigrant so it was diverse
in like the literal sense and I made
since it was me I made us go around the
table and say who do our people hate and
there was this one girl I forget where
she was from she's like oh we don't hate
anybody I go who who's your neighbors
and she goes oh we don't hate them we
just think they're dumb so point being
and now as Americans for the most part
thankfully we can joke about these old
like ancient grievances about you know
and sometimes the Grievances are for a
reason your your people slaughtered my
people but when you're face to face with
someone you know it's just like okay
like I don't really hate you you I even
saw this in North Korea where there was
no perception from the guides that like
as Americans we want to wish them any
harm at all even though all their
propaganda is understandably you know
but for Kim Jong-un the US Imperials are
going to come come down here and
Slaughter you all so it's there was you
know that was at least um something
welcoming to see but but that sense of
hatred of the of them is just part of
the thing I want people to understand if
I could take a one thing and just it's
not anarchism it's that it's not that
human beings are basically good or
basically evil it's that they're
basically animals and this distinction
between humans and non-human animals is
grossly overblown and if you want to
understand politics don't read Hobs and
lock watch the dog whisper and watch how
those hierarchies and behaviors change
and then many things will grow clear to
your understanding it's so funny that
you say that so uh my biggest
breakthrough as an entrepreneur was from
watching the dog whisper wow and I tell
people that now I'm like yo you want to
be an entrepreneur cuz I have one guy
here who really wants to be like groomed
he's worked with me since he was 17 he
really wants to be groomed to be the
next CEO I'm like all right bro you got
to get on the dog can we use a different
word than what groomed oh [ __ ] yeah he
wants to he want to be he wants to be
groom so I sent him to the dog whisper
funny this is uh a word that uh has
taking on a
connotation uh yeah fair so anyway he
wants to be trained he wants to learn
how to be whatever words we want to use
he wants to sit and be a good boy
exactly yeah uh technically that is
exactly what he needs to learn not to do
but if he want to Be an Effective CEO
but anyway I told him to watch the dog
whisper and really understand that you
can train people and people respond just
like dogs do and when you see him so
anyway I think it's absolutely punish
bad behavior reward good behavior yep
correct
uh be predictable so that people know
they going to get yes set your
boundaries coherently and clearly yeah
yep and then understand that they are a
certain way so if you've got a dog
that's super aggressive you can't just
walk in and be like I'm going to
dominate you even though that may be
what you do down the road at first you
just have to turn your back on them and
you know walk in cautiously and protect
yourself and and understand that
sometimes people and dogs will do things
that make no sense and instead of trying
to figure out why I just realize you're
dealing with an animal it's interesting
I don't agree with that you don't think
human beings are fundamentally deranged
oo those are two very different things
Define derange and I'll tell you whether
I agree with it or not that human beings
will often you know the Lord of the
Flies right there's this idea for people
don't know it's a bunch of kids on an
island crash on an island and such a
good book it's not because it's
completely it's completely acious
because it happened in real life and
that's not what happened so what drives
me crazy and you as a Storyteller can
appreciate this people believe stories
more than they believe reality oh for
sure right so I've had people argue
because Lord the Flies is again a story
of a bunch of school kids they get
crashed to Des Island they turn violent
and tribal and start killing each other
but this happened in real life there
were a bunch of British school kids who
crashed on a desert island and you know
what they worked really well together
and one kid broke his leg they didn't
decapitate him they did his chores with
him they set his leg human beings are
not feral like we are capable of great
violence but we're also capable of great
Mutual Aid and the reason Survivor has
to have these kind of voting out because
if you put a bunch of people on a beach
they would work together and and quite
well and quite easily because human
beings are um social animals but do you
know pit Karen Island wait why do I know
that name because it's the exact
opposite of what you're talking about
right now and it was a group of people
that end up on an island and
unfortunately they did not evenly
distribute the women or one of them died
or something and so it was just mass
murder no no so I'm sorry once you
introduce women Society is impossible so
anyway point being
people will argue with me that Lord of
the Flies is real despite the fact that
what happened to the kids is not but at
the same time human beings if you think
about any little scars you have on your
hands little ticks think about the human
brain right or little your mind people
will do things that make no sense for
any reason and unless you're prepared
for these kind of wild card moments like
or or or expect to be everything to be
understandable you're going to be in for
a rude awakening and I'm sure you've
seen that happen many times with with
with work where like some or something
does things is like doesn't make any
sense but like what can I do about it
it's interesting so this may be purely
definitional and we're saying the exact
same thing just in slightly different
ways uh I'm trying to convince people
you're having a biological experience
and what I'm saying is all of those
people were moving towards pleasure and
away from Pain and while I may not be
able to predict why they did a thing I
know 100% that they have either a secret
belief hiding in their head or a known
one that they just aren't saying out
loud and they're moving towards that and
if you can identify what really moves
that person not what they say moves them
but what actually moves them they will
become far more predictable so my wife
and I have used this in our marriage to
tremendous effect where it's like hey
when we were first in love and we felt
like cocaine addicts and we were like
could not get enough of each other we
started saying this won't last it's
awesome let's enjoy it but it's not
going to last so we need to know how to
cross that next Chasm which is this is
going to mature into uh a very different
relationship and so so we were able to
do that well and then now as we've
gotten older we're like hey remember the
peak divorce for a couple is when the
woman goes through menopause the kids
leave the house so now the woman's like
I've been taking care of everybody
forever my estrogen just dropped and I
don't give a [ __ ] about taking care of
anybody anymore get the [ __ ] out and so
my wife and I have been talking about
that for a decade so now that we're
edging up towards her being in per
menopause we're like cool let's talk
about it how are your hormones impacting
you how do they make you feel so anyway
the more you can map somebody out and
you will get blindsided for sure but if
you get blindsided and your punchline is
humans are just unpredictable you're
going to I think miss a trick you want
to go oo interesting my map of that
person and how they think was wrong yeah
but you you you have you committed to
making it work this is your wife I'm
talking about if someone random at the
office you know who's just has a screw
loose like it's often not interesting
it's often like okay this person is a
crazy or what whatever the backstory is
to their acting uh at least on a
perceptual level as IR rational what
would you do in that moment uh um first
of all as as a Russian um and as someone
who has a lot of experience in business
I always come in with the assumption
that what's my plan be if this person
falls through so I'm never shocked or
hurt or like whatever and I'm sure
you've had to do this a lot it's like
all right let's assume this false
through what's my workaround so
especially when I was starting out as an
author I mean getting it you get a a
client then you get a book proposal then
you get a book deal I mean every step of
the way the floor can come out from
under you so you really have to be
prepared for okay what's my what can I
do to mitigate the damage here or just
work around it so but if I'm dealing
with someone and have you
never this this idea that everyone's
always seeking pleasure not pain have
you never God help you had to deal with
someone who's
borderline uh yes I have and would you
say that person is seeking pleasure or
they're just seeking pain for everybody
including themselves um they are seeking
a state that appeals to them right okay
I'll agree with that yes and so then my
job is to figure out what state is it
that appeals to them and do I have to
quarantine them out of my life because
it's a nonsensical state for me yes yes
but I'm always trying to so you gave a
definition of true I think earlier or
real uh that I loved which is there
there is truth in the world and that the
thing that is true is hard to identify
but there is a sort of tell all which is
if I understand this truth correctly it
will make a prediction and then when I
run that test then the prediction will
be validated if if that works out then I
have the accurate model of the truth yes
if it doesn't work out something in my
mental model is broken and I need to
update it that's right and so because
like you I believe that we're just
[ __ ] animals and that our psychology
is very surprising at times certainly at
the individual level oh yes uh and so I
do an exercise where I'm like okay I'm a
writer that's actually my primary
identity and so if I were a writer and I
were writing this person as a character
what would need to be true in their
internal life for them to act this way
and completely and so then I'm like oh
they'd have to think this or believe
this or be going through this then it's
like oh [ __ ] like maybe that really is
it and so that has helped me navigate a
lot now as a business person a lot of
times I'm just like yeah like even
though I can empathize and even though
I'm writing you as a character and I can
find out why he like this I can't have
that in my business um so it isn't like
I don't come to conclusions where this
person isn't savable but they're I think
they're again you have to know where
you're trying to end up but they are
very useful going back to my fetish with
efficacy they're very useful ways to
engage with somebody who just took you
caught you off guard is acting in a
weird way uh and sometimes the utility
is I'm really going to invest in this
person and find out why an otherwise
high- performing employee just did
something that I could see firing them
just for this but first I want to
understand and so that would be my
approach to that which sounds very
similar to yours I agree with every word
you said yeah it's very having a
Northstar and knowing what you're
steering towards and then having tools
and techniques to get you there are very
interesting yes um okay so going back to
the USSR and how they broke bad by
basically lie lie lie lie lie uh seeking
security over
Freedom did Co feel like there were
these parallels did you see flickers of
the things that made the USSR so
terrifying in the way the people
responded to co I try to avoid making
these comparisons at all costs because I
remember vividly when Mike Bloomberg was
governor excuse me mayor of New York
City and he was Banning like big gulps
at 7-Eleven and Mike Huckabee who had
been governor of Arizona at the time
Arkansas excuse me said oh it's just
like North
Korea if the worst thing about North
Korea is if you think the problem with
North Korea is they don't can't big
gulps at they're 7-Eleven like really so
I I think that because we are in many
ways still so free in the west and when
people make these kind of parallels I
think we got to be very very careful and
cautious uh these what goes wrong if you
draw the parallel because if you have to
dial because if you're in
2016 Trump is an as he was on the cover
of the Daily News Antichrist literally
Hitler the worst things ever happened to
America that implies you can't get worse
so what a historical example which is
not g to you know have people flipping
out is during World War I the Great War
there was all this propaganda about
Kaiser willhelm and the Germans the Hun
and they're doing all these War
atrocities I'm sure some of them were
true some of them were true but it's
like oh God so when Hitler comes along
and there's all this stuff about what
the Germans are doing the Nazis are
doing many people in the west including
reporters were like we heard this before
this is just [ __ ] like you guys are
just repeating the same old song but it
was true this time you know the moral of
the boy who cries wolf spoiler the wolf
shows up so if you're if anyone is like
you know Biden's I I you hear this all
the time with conservative Biden's a
communist is he like a communist like he
thinks the government should control all
industry he's not a puppet of Wall
Street like what are you talking about
um so I think any kind of comparisons
between even a largely uh um free
country and a totalitarian dictatorship
like the USSR was I want to be very very
cautious because that also feeds to the
cynicism people are like how could I be
happy in you know Nazi America I'm like
really you can't at all like you can't
listen to a song you like like that's
impossible to you so but the one but but
there is a commonality
because the Soviet Union citizenry and
the US citizenry and the North Korea
cenry they're all human beings and again
one of the big parallels
between um the Soviet Union and the US
and I think every other country on earth
is the need or desire for a lot of
people to get that pat in the head from
those who are in power for doing what
they're told even there's this book
Jordan Peterson talks about all the time
called Ordinary men where basically they
took a bunch of cops in I think Poland
and they just turned them into execution
gangs and they're like go shoot those
kids go shoot these old people in the
head and they even told them listen if
you're uncomfortable you can quit you're
not G have a problem and no one ever
said I'm having an issue shooting these
kids in the head so the again the the
dog whisper thing the um ability uh the
what's that the mgrm experiment
the desire and ability of so many people
I think a large majority of people to be
obedient and follow Authority a fedson
one of the reasons why I think anarchism
is true because this is just something
that's inherently malevolent but also is
something that is far more common than I
think most people realize because again
those people calling the secret police
thought they were the good guys and they
will think they're the good guys till
the day they die yeah uh walk me through
how that ends up being true so you've
got uh Walter Durant saying hey
everything here is great what are you
talking about uh there was somebody else
that you said went to their grave
defending Stalin and this is long after
the atrocities were laid bare what
what's the psychological psychological
principle playing out I I can't I don't
know Walter danty so I can't speak to
him specifically but broadly speaking um
it's it's a quote ascribed to Upton
Sinclair I think incorrectly that it's
impossible to convince a man of
something if his salary depends on it
not being true so if people have
proximity to power and their status is
based on those people in power being in
power for a reason it's very hard to
tell them you know this guy's the devil
right you know he's like killing a lot
of his his people and you're basically
shaking hands with this monster but I
shook hands with him he doesn't have
horns he's a nice guy he he he
compliments me he reads my book things
like this so you know the seduction of
power is something I think many people
tend to understand regards to their
political persuasion um and it's
something that's people who are kind of
sociopathic or power striving understand
how to weaponize you know very very well
because here's another great example
every politi I I don't know how many
politicians say this I'm fighting for
you who are you talking to and who are
you fighting against not you like your
the commercial is visible literally
everybody so you got to be fighting
somebody fighting for you you don't know
me [ __ ] I don't know you I don't want
to know you so you know things like this
and um and
the the but the other thing about you
know the Soviet Union you asked how it
fell is this speaks to another asymmetry
because if you tell me a thousand truths
and One Lie that lie is like a the dart
at the balloon you know I think of you
as a liar now especially if it's a big
deal and if you've been my mom you know
she's I would ask her about this growing
with s un she goes you don't have to
have any kind of understanding because
if they tell you when you're a freshman
that this guy was a great hero and two
and a sophomore year he's an enemy of
the people and then when you're junior
right one again once again you know he's
a great hero you realize they got to be
lying at some point like this doesn't so
these things they live in and we see
this in the corporate media today very
much people live in a natural present
where they'll have these story lines and
they the media stops talking about them
and we just stop thinking about it a
good example is social
distancing if social distancing was
there's your favorite word efficacious
right why didn't they bring it back
during the other waves and if it wasn't
efficacious why did we do it to the
begin with so you can have it both ways
but no one even brings up that term
anymore even though the stickers are
still on the floor sometimes because
it's because again we're in a Perpetual
present we're not talking about Co
anymore we're talking about whatever it
is we're happen to be talking about at
the moment and people don't sit back and
be like wait a minute I've been
bamboozled so one thing that I and one
more thing sorry that just reminded me
Caesar Milan always says dogs don't
think they react when you understand
that a lot of people live in a Perpetual
present and unless that guy or woman on
the screen whether it's a TV screen or
computer screen tells them hey remember
this it's literally
literally as if it doesn't exist for
them like if they're not hearing about
it now it never happened it's never in
their Consciousness on any level do you
believe that the slippery slope that
leads to that kind of um totalitarian
nightmare
is is inevitable is like the default
place that people end up if they don't
push back I don't think it's a slippery
slope at all so this is a conservative
claim that's not true
no nation has other than perhaps
Venezuela has gone from socialism to
Communism it's always been a violent
revolution it's not a thing all these
these Scandinavian countries all these
countri big welfare states Canada
although it's increasing its totalitar
now you had these leftist governments
pull back as the state got too big and
too cumbersome so it's not really a
thing that it's it's like gr tunberg
thinking like oh you know what
government has increased this amount
every year So eventually it's going to
become you know totalitarian it's not
inevitability at all uh nor do I think
it's a slippery slope I think it's an
Elevator Shaft I think a lot of times
when the conditions are right the people
in power know it they flick the switch
and they're like all right it's
totalitarian now so it's not this
gradual process at all um but I am of
course concerned but I'm hopeful because
I do think
technology is it's very hard to persuade
an entire population of something that's
not true if they even a significant
percentage of them have access to free
information because I don't have to show
that you're TR true or false about this
thing I just to show that you lie and
once I've shown that you lie what are
you going to do you can run your mouth
all you want even when you're telling
the truth this happened in
Czechoslovakia this I love this story so
during Czechoslovakia in uh The Velvet
uh Revolution there was a rumor that
went around cu the cops were beating
protesters there a rumor going around
that there was this student who was
killed right and everyone's this was an
escalation people were losing their
minds the Communists found I forgot the
guy's name it's in the white pill there
was not one but two students with that
name and they brought him out on TV they
go no no he's fine but they didn't
believe him but they were telling the
truth in that instance and no one had
been killed but because it had been
years in years of Lies he like I'm not
even listening to your [ __ ] anymore
so that asymmetry between truth and lies
is something one of the big Reasons I'm
so hopeful for the future of America and
the West because again it's not about
fighting an individual battle for this
issue or that issue where they don't
care about the [ __ ] that they're
saying at the moment even as they're
saying it it's about once you
demonstrate that these people are full
of it and you they know they're full of
it you tune them out and that's a very
healthy step forward now do you feel
like that's happened with the mainstream
media I never use that term and I would
encourage you not to use that term
because I think a group group of
depraved literal demons should not and
cannot be regarded as mainstream okay um
so I always refer to the corporate press
or something else because they are
ideological radicals and I'll tell
anyone listening to this who you know if
you had to have nine Supreme Court
Justices would you rather have nine
Democratic senators at random or nine
members of The New York Times editorial
board and very quickly unless you're
malist people understand oh wait a
minute I see what's going on here um
what was your question I'm sorry I'm
just trying to um better understand the
setup that leads to this I think it's
happening you asked if this happening
more with the corporate press I think
yes absolutely indisputably the by all
measures uh people are far less trusting
of media narratives than they were five
or 10 years ago across all political
biases okay so is that the asymmetry
that you're talking about people now
know this is just [ __ ] so now
they're not going to fall for it anymore
yes
that's one thing you think is going in
the right direction oh yes oh yes got it
what are the because I don't know much
about the Bolshevik Revolution my
research has sort of picked up Lenin
comes into power and then I have a
reasonable grasp of what happened um
what is the setup that people need to be
worried about and I'm asking this
question I and and you're really
influencing my thinking but I have come
into researching you with the sense of
this is a slippery slope we are way
headed down the wrong path and in some
ways yes and there
are things that where if if there is a
setup it isn't a slipper slope but
there's a setup that leads to the
Elevator Shaft that we are increasingly
acquiring those pieces on the chessboard
that setup whatever that um setup is
that leads to the and now we're
circumstances are right we flipped the
switch something feels off I can
illustrate exactly what I think is off
um but paint for me the picture I I know
Germany very well in terms of what
caused them to break bad uh into the
Third Reich but I don't know what led to
the Bolshevik Revolution well I mean I I
don't think that's analogous at all
because it was thear and then you had a
weak Parliament and this was a country
we had no history of democracy so there
was no buyin to the Duma uh that it was
legitimate and and you know you had a
very dis it was very poor country it was
very kind of uh uh you had no social
Mobility it it was really you know even
Marxist the idea that Russia would
become cuz ISM had the idea that a
country has to be industrialized first
and then you kind of kill the factory
owners and then you take over right
whereas Russia is just as backwards you
know agrarian joke so you know they
lenon had to do a little tap dancing to
kind of explain that away so I I don't
think the parallels are there uh at all
but I do think and I don't think
American authoritarianism would look
like despite you know a lot of
conservative views because for decades
the Soviet Union was the bad guys
correctly that doesn't mean the bad guys
now are going to be analogous to the
Soviet Union I think you're seeing this
kind of um it's much more maist in
character uh and it's being spread
through Corporate America this whole
idea of like we're gonna have a group
call and everyone's going to get up and
say I'm a racist is a struggle session
this is straight out of maoism um and
one of my tweets that that I'm kind of
proud of is Corporate America's done a
far better job of promoting maoism than
the Chinese Communist party ever D dream
because capitalism is so efficient and
if you think about it's it's it's kind
of the case this idea of the struggle
session for people don't know and this
they have to do still in North Korea
everyone the whole country every week
you get up with your group whatever it
is and you have to say what you did
wrong that week and then people berate
you for it and and you got the promise
to do better and you're encouraged and
North Korea you're mandated to look
around your shoulder and turn in
somebody else every week publicly and
you so everyone's keeping everyone else
responsible but it's this idea of like
sounds familiar yeah it's collectivized
guilt and and and collectivize
responsibility everyone's responsible
for everybody else so responsible
everybody else um in terms of things I'm
concerned about when governments have to
be more authoritarian and start cracking
down on things like they did in Canada
with the truckers that's again Thomas
Soul says there's no um Solutions there
only trade-offs there's a big plus
because one of the things Mar and I'm
not saying the plus that weighs the
negative by the way I'm just saying it
exists one things Martin Luther King and
I apologize for talking like a boomer
for bringing him up one things Martin
Luther King understood very well is that
there were a lot of people who were
racists and bigots who thought you know
who don't like black people had whatever
prejudices in their minds but who turned
on the TV and saw men and women in suits
being attacked by dogs and fire hoses
and be like okay like I'm Prejudice but
I don't take that quote out of context
they said that they're prejudiced but
I'm not for this like okay I've now not
all of them but enough people were like
all right this I've crossed the line so
when you see things like
authoritarianism being made public a lot
of people who aren't who probably AIT
often apolitical or you know moderate
whatever they're like okay this is
crossing a line that I'm uncomfortable
with uh because you always want to if
you're in power control through
persuasion and the velvet glove instead
of having to whip out the Baton because
a lot of people are going to start
getting antsy and be like whoa whoaa
whoa something's up here uh with a naked
display force it changes the energy in
the room if you're me and you are having
an argument even yelling argument as
opposed to like you start punching me in
the face these are very different
situations right for sure for sure okay
I want to see what you think about my
sense of what the table has to look like
or the chessboard just to [ __ ] pick
one metaphor and stick with it uh what
does the chessboard have to look like
for people to be ready to flip that
switch uh I think people have to be
scared even if it's just economics so
worried that I'm not going to be able to
pay uh so Yar Germany hyperinflation oh
my God what are we going to do there has
to be resentment so there has to be
enemy 100% And by the way if anybody
wants to know what I'm cribbing off of I
read uh minec conf that [ __ ] is crazy he
literally just said here's how it works
laying it all out uh but anyway they
have to be scared there has to be heard
the official book of quest bars is that
true don't you dare Michael M this is
where people clip [ __ ] out of contg to
remind everybody I'm no longer at Quest
Nutrition and I read uh his book not so
that I could get good at doing it so I
could get good at detecting when it was
happening clear let's be very it is not
the official [ __ ] my unofficial got it
you yes it's your struggle boys strg my
struggle session uh so okay anyway uh
they have to be afraid there has to be
an outgroup and then there have to be
these big Promises of this thing is
going to be the thing that saves you and
in all of that is like look it's just
temporary and we're just reacting to
these very bad people and so even in
that they had to now wasn't this is just
temporary well we can get into ma that's
good you're going to force me to check
my own uh beliefs because I've actually
spent more time with ma uh but they even
needed like there to be that one sort of
final thing and that was they themselves
burn down a really important building
and said that the opposition did it and
see now we have to go do this very bad
thing and I think that's what trigger
Crystal knocked right if I'm remembering
correctly so uh the Nazis are like hey
you guys are all terrified um there's
this group that's causing you a problem
that group just did a bad thing uh we're
going to take over with Force but don't
worry this is all for your own good and
then by the way they actually really
delivered results and they stabilized
the currency and got things moving in a
much better Direction Why does that make
you quest bars the delivered results
stop it's on the bar just read it what
you creating problems for other people
that's the worst part like you're trying
to troll me but it's gonna I don't own
the company anymore anyway uh God so
that is I think the the rough setup on
the board and so when I'm viewing what's
going there's one thing you're missing I
really want to reject it has to be a
binary give it to me you're either an us
or you're a them okay they have to
always set that up you you they so
you're forcing people to choose so you
sure you want to not be with us cuz
you're going to be with them is that
what you want that's partly I think very
important to point out because that's
one of the things that I see happening
now so I have been an apolitical animal
my entire life and it's only been again
I think we talked about this off camera
where I realized oh wait I during Co I
didn't understand money printing there
were people I wanted to help uh you
start peeling back that onion of just
trying to help people with their money
run into money printing which then takes
you into what the hell is the
fed and it just becomes this whole rat
nness of like whoa the world is not at
all what I thought it the world doesn't
work the way that I thought it worked
right no the world doesn't work the way
you were told it works too that is for
sure and so that becomes this whole
thing okay so now I can see the
increasing Division division division
division just like hyper radicalized and
that strikes me as a very bad idea one
of the things that I'm trying to do in
my very small way with my channel is
just show people even if I don't agree
with somebody first I need to understand
say their position in a way they would
recognize and it's like okay cool we can
figure out where we agree where we
disagree and then um I'm always trying
to move towards okay what can we do that
leads to human
flourishing uh but going back to the
pieces that have to be set the binary
that's super helpful but I see some of
these pieces getting put in place oh yes
and the big one was covid where people
realized oh just keep me safe and so
once I saw how thin the veneer was of
like I'm willing to do a lot of crazy
things just to keep myself safe um that
really unnerved me about how close we
are like I want to put together a
totalitarian clock that says how close
we are and I've thought about doing a
gimmick and asking all my guests like
how close are we to that I want to make
that the whole thing that I'm talking
about but that to me is a a really
interesting question like how close like
the atomic clock how close do people
think we are to
Annihilation but I'm going to point
something out which people in this space
often forget if you went back to 2021
and people who had this perception that
you do which is not Incorrect and you
asked them in
2024 will there still be vaccine
passports will there still be masks 90%
of the people said yes so they didn't
resend those things because they're nice
or started caring about Freedom all of a
sudden or realized oops we made a
mistake at a certain point these things
have a cost and at a certain point you
run out of the ability to pay those
costs dollars or political political
willpower and social you know
manipulation
points okay that makes sense uh and you
say that to remind people that if they
speak up it's obviously not voting if if
just to remind people that if you assume
that whatever bad thing is currently
happening is going to be there in
perpetuity here's an very obvious
counter example if you asked yourself a
few years ago and you would have been
certain we're always going to have
vaccine mandates we're always going to
have be wearing masks and would people
be misunderstanding you to also hearing
that someone somewhere has to speak up
to make the political cost untenable I
think speaking up is a bad way of
inflicting pain I think there has to be
a cost and like me talking to the
manager is one mechanism but it's not an
efficacious one so it could be as much
what probably ended up happening in
certain cases is some powerful person
call their governor Congressman are like
this is costing the hotel industry or
this is costing the airplane industry
and they're like we're not going to give
you money for re-election or whatever
like that they had to have personal
consequences for it and when those
leaders have personal consequences very
quickly uh they start changing their
tune just out of curiosity to find the
edges of my understanding of you if you
saw somebody who was like I really feel
like I want to go speak out and make a
lot of noise obviously you'd say yeah
cool if that's how you want to spend
your time I'm here for it but would you
say Ah that's actually good that some
people do that yes very much so okay
very much so yes okay got it and also I
would encourage them figure out what
works don't be self-indulgent about it
what makes you be persuasive what what
are you what do you have to say that no
one else is saying just like with a your
a product it's like okay there's this
you know the great thing about
entrepreneurs as you know I was a
business major is they see that space in
the Shelf that's empty that no one else
sees like wait a minute this is a hole
in the market same thing with politics
you're like wait a minute no one is
saying this I can point this out to
people that's how you get
ahead very interesting okay uh ma I'm
missing a piece in thinking that my
breakdown of because this whole thing
about this is just temporary I think
with now if I could be wrong um but I
just read some books on him fairly
recently the idea was this is permanent
we're overthrowing you know the landlord
class and we're bringing kind of this
heaven on Earth so sure some of the
measur might have been temporary but in
terms of the structure and you know they
do have this perpet this kind of Heaven
is a place on Earth you a few few
Generations down the road which never
seems to come but it wasn't like Lenin
where it's like this is war communism we
have to fight the Russian Civil War you
know uh freedom of speech is a bgea you
know contrivance that we can have you
know once we kind of are free from our
enemies I think with ma is a little bit
different it's interesting there may be
a distinction in there that's important
when I look at it he definitely had
moments like with the starvation where
it was like hey this is temporary his
own daughtering stuff and he was like no
no no look you need to suffer along with
everybody else this isn't going to be
forever everything's going to be fine uh
same with the um cultural revolution
where it's like oh we're just going to
destroy this real fast and then like
we're going to get moving in a good
direction um but I haven't looked
closely enough at Mao in terms of his
language of whether this is like the
permanent State of Affairs or if that's
sort of exactly the same of the
revolution has to happen and the outcome
is going to be forever but the
revolution I don't know if you use that
similar War language or I I know from
North Korea they basically talk about
Revolution as being a Perpetual thing
and they actually what's really great
about North Korea which I was surprised
to learn is that they address all the
Western criticism so I was like oh okay
um so one their books talks about like
when westerners hear Revolution they
think like murder and War Warfare
constantly what we mean and they're
talking about sides of their mouth is
this Perpetual cultural motion to making
things better better uh you know so it
it's it has a positive connotation for
them do they ever Define what the better
is that they're moving towards yes it's
you know uh the houses with blue tiles
they specifically fetishize that like
when the great leader kiml Sun
everyone's gonna have blue til houses so
it's it's it's it's exact it's it's it's
very bgea it's going to be more
education better jobs health care food
no one goes hungry everyone has
contributes to the society everyone's
taken care of
you know you orphans are Kings in this
country you know that sort of thing
would the average citizen in North Korea
have the same grocery store moment that
I forget which Russian leader it was
that saw it uh so North Korea doesn't
really have an average because they have
something called sun buun which is
everyone has a cast and this cast
determines where you could you don't
have internal migration you can't leave
your village without permission right so
unless you have a very high social
status which means your whole family
they interview your whole family you're
not allowed to step foot in Pyongyang
the capital city which is reported to be
the most beautiful thing on earth I
assure you spoil her it is not so I've
met refugees who are like oh what's
Pyongyang like because they have never
been allowed to step foot in it
so um there is an in this also speaks to
the a symmetry between truth and lies
North Koreans used to sing a song this
this the title of a very important book
by Barbara Deming North Korean called
the world envies us and now this an
understanding of yeah we're poor but we
work together and we're working together
for a better country so they've had to
to adjust their propaganda as more and
more North Koreans even in rural areas
were aware of uh we're not don't have
more food than everybody else that's
completely not true how long do you
think that they can keep going like
this well what do you mean like this uh
so great question I have a base
assumption that their population is
still starving no hungry yeah okay you
make that distinction because they can
stay at that level of hunger no I made
ation because 10% of the population
starve to death during the 90s and
that's not currently happening so they
actually had a mini genocide and uh they
didn't let food come in to feed the
population whoa okay whoa uh that's head
moment yeah that's less than ideal uh
that's not very efficacious yeah not not
in the slightest Mr mice okay so
interesting um when I look at Russia or
the USSR excuse me when I look at the
USSR that feels like an idea where it
just couldn't sustain it was just
getting so bad that it ultimately sort
of crumbled under its own weight when
Stalin died no that that's not first of
all they didn't crumble its own weight
when Stalin died that was St died what
53 so it had another 40 years so this
this kind of horoscope idea of like well
this the the USSR is definitely going to
collapse at some point well everything
collapsed at some point you don't think
things immediately started to change but
they start to change but my point is
North Korea had something similar and
instead of uh it being allowed to kind
of break up they chose to double down
and and let millions of people starve so
when the Soviet Union collapsed it
didn't have to collapse as it did it
could have collapsed with more
totalitarianism and more murder and and
widespread
famine okay uh what I'm saying is though
literally some months I believe after
Stalin died uh I forget again the name
of the person that gave the speech but
he gave the secret speech about look we
all have to be honest terrible yes and
by the way just I have to interrupt
because they're gerain people can watch
an AI reconstruction in English of him
giving this speech because there is the
transcripts yes who and I watched it and
I brought tears it brought tears to my
eyes because what you're hearing and for
people who read the white book white
pill are familiar with Soviet history
for for decades you know one of the
things I have receipts about in the book
is so many people in the west were like
this is all anti-communist propaganda
they have food they can read whatever
books they want you guys are just
Prejudice this is just the capitalist
newspapers you know spreading lies about
the good natured Soviet Union and
Stalin's awesome he helped us kick
Hitler's ass how can you say anything
bad about him blah blah blah and then
his successor kushev sitting in Solin
seat literally gets up in the middle of
the night and delivers this secret
speech and is like it was all true these
people were tortured uh these like this
he just goes through the names he goes
this one was accused of being an enemy
of the state was based on no like he
just goes through name after name after
name like at this Congress there were
1100 delegates a thousand of them were
arrested and murdered how is this even
possible that if we could have a country
if that percent of the governing bodies
were all you know enemies of the state
and you can only imagine how sitting in
that room to hear Stalin's successor be
like all the stuff they were saying is
true we did these unconscionable
monstrosities against our own people and
it's just this beautiful moment uh
historically so to hear it in in
reconstruction of his voice in English
is just so amazing and you don't think
that the things were set in Motion in
that moment that led to oh LED to what
led to the downfall of the USSR oh it
certainly contributed what I'm saying is
downfall is one of those words that
could have a you know you got to stick
the landing right A lot of these
countries when they downfall look at
Libya there's the downfall of Gaddafi is
it really some kind of you know is Libya
today anywhere similar to like Lithuania
today I don't I don't think you could
make that case and so what was it that
happened that made it made them stick
The Landing
gorbachov I I think he was one of the
greatest people who ever lived and to me
one of what is a great example of beauty
you know people ask what is beauty right
um when I was reading the writing the
book and one things I researched is
there was time after time you know
Hungary tried to uh um you know had
revolted for 13 days against communism
The Velvet uh the um Prague spring in
1968 the Czechs tried to do it as well
and you know the Russians and the East
Germans everybody the Russians are
sending the tanks and come the late 80s
early 990s you know gorbachov was the
first uh Soviet leader to be born After
the Revolution he lost his family
members to Stalin and Stalin's purges um
and he saw what that did to you know his
own family and Country after country
this is again tenman Square was June uh
um June 4th 1989 right so this is during
his Reign country after is that today
yeah oh wow crazy how
fortuitous wow okay okay huh
um and chesu from Romania Haner from
East Germany as these count as the
people are rising up in these countries
calls up gorbachov and they say
truthfully you have to send in the tent
s if you don't send in the tanks it's
all going to go to [ __ ] and he goes nope
I'm not sending in the tanks and there's
this great moment that I learned about
during this book where you know one of
the big concerns of the Cold War is the
US and USSR had all these missiles
pointing at each other you know Mutual
assure destruction you know and Reagan
comes in in 81 and he's like okay like
this shit's got to stop like we are have
the capacity to destroy life on Earth I
can't have this on my wife watch and
what's amazing is
independently Reagan got taken down to
the bunker and walk through the
rehearsal of a nuclear war and what he'd
have to do and he's like so I press this
button and like millions of Russians are
killed in seconds they're like yep he's
like yeah okay and his AIDS were like he
wouldn't he wouldn't retaliate and
what's even more amazing is gorbachov
got taken down to his bunker walked
through the dress rehearsal and he said
explicitly I'm not pressing button even
in a simulation if they're going to fire
we're not firing back I'm not going to
have the death of millions of people on
my hands I don't care so but they
neither of them knew the other thought
this so you had this amazing poker game
where this hardcore anti-communist
Ronald Reagan who's head of the Screen
Actors Guild who rooted out communism in
in Hollywood was a total Dove when it
came to the idea of nuclear war so they
had this big Bluff and you know both
were on the same side and then you
thater you know in the Middle where
Reagan was talking to gorbachov about
destroying all nuclear weapons and she's
like you've lost her mind she's like you
can't uninvent something she goes how do
you know gorbachov wouldn't cheat I
would cheat so it's this great moment of
you know Thatcher being in the middle
and being this kind of uh uh realist
when it came to politics but between the
three of them you know you massively uh
decreased the nuclear threat worldwide
and you massively liberated you know
half the world without a shot being
fired and it was very important that
they had this relationship so that he
knew that if things
liberalized uh the West wouldn't in many
ways take advantage of the situation as
they've been
warned yeah it's a a pretty amazing
thing I assume the reason that you think
gorbachov was one of the greatest people
of all time because in that moment he
could have tightened the grip of power
if you're a powerful person with your
finger on the trigger and you take your
finger off the trigger that to me is
greatness whatever happened to him well
he died fairly recently really yeah he
just lived a nice quiet Li somewhere in
Russia no they hated him after a while
that that's that's kind of the sequel I
was actually in talks to interview him
and I would have kissed his feet
literally but then Co hit and he was
like 80 something he was living in San
Francisco what yeah gorbachov lived in
America oh yeah they they drove him out
because because of him the the C country
went to [ __ ] it fell apart right so the
the transition was not easy for a lot of
people it was it became this kind of
gangster regime it was still better
although it was hardly
ideal wow that's interesting I did not
know that he ended up in the US he used
to do Pizza Hut
commercials happening that that was
during the 80s though I'm now in like an
alternate timeline what do they call
that the Mandela effect this is a
Mandela effect there's no way that
gorbachov did pizza commercials and as I
think we're gonna need to pull that up I
think as head of the Soviet Union I need
to see if that's real gorbachov Pizza H
commercials that seems impossible that
is crazy let's see we're about to find
out if if we can spell
gorbachov there it's the second result
automatic right right
there oh was 97 I was wrong this is way
after
wow I am scandalized by two things one
that we have an account that shows
commercials while we're trying to watch
the show and then two M tight these days
huh actually
actually did a pizza Commercial
whoa wow my how things Chang but this is
Pizza Hut in Russia the ads are here
it's just staged yeah it's not a Pizza
Hut ad for Russians it's for it's
subtitles for
Americans This did not make my radar at
all
wow that's amazing well God bless it all
right you can stop it that uh that's
that was me crazy yeah I bet that is uh
that's very fascinating yeah okay so
what do all this history feels like a
Prelude obviously for now I don't like
that because sometimes the story is its
own thing do you know what I mean not
everything has to have contemporary
relevance yes I agree with that but is
not I if you're going to try to make
sense to the world today should you not
you sure yes yeah that's fair I'm just
saying deeply of
historical okay so uh I look at the
current moment I already get a sense
that you think people are overblowing
this and this is the boyo cried wolf no
no but the boyed wolf the wolf shows up
yes so is The Wolf on its way oh yes I
mean we should absolutely be concerned
about the wolf showing up but my point
is it's not a given the wolf's going to
show up and it's not a given that if the
boy knows the wolf showing up why is he
getting a she sheep dog or a gun so
what's the in as we race towards the
2024 election what's the sheep dog
what's the gun the I think this 2024
election is a complete misdirection in
the sense that I promise everyone
listening to this that if Biden has
another term it's not the end of America
we've been hearing this every four years
if this democrat's elected it's the end
of America I also don't think if Trump
is elected it's going to be the end of
America but I think people need to think
more long term Washington can only solve
cause problems it cannot provide
Solutions and I think there
is I don't know that I would advice per
se but I think social media is
organically doing the Lion Share of
delegitimizing corporate media and
government and that is something I am
extremely um grateful for and
enthusiastic about that makes a lot of
sense is is it just a function of an
alternative or do you think they're
actually proposing ideas that are
useful well I I what do you mean I'm
sorry in the alternative Medias or any
anything coming out that you think is
actually useful or is it just that there
is an outlet that Twitter exists or X
now I don't know that they proposing
other than like Bitcoin which I'm very
big fan of I don't know they're
proposing Outlets per se so much of an
understanding of you don't have to
accept the system as a given and you
also this idea that this vote every four
years is determinative of everything
that happens in your life is completely
fallacious and you know this mechanism
certainly that the Republican party is
going to be means of your salvation or
Trump personally is really uh uh I think
people have dropped a lot even though a
lot of people on the right will say they
infinitely pursue prefer Trump to Biden
they are not going to think okay if we
get them in you know everything's a wrap
they they they they understand that the
swamp's not getting drained in four
years agreed but if people perception is
reality so people believe that their
vote matters and that the election is
being influenced they probably wouldn't
use that word they probably use
something stronger but being influenced
by all the political law fair that Trump
has been targeted unfairly I mean there
are a huge number of people believe that
yes and so I one of the things on my
bingo card is uh enough people go uh
he's a felon I can't elect him right all
they needed was the mug shot right now
Trump loses and people go he didn't get
the votes I'm not even arguing that but
he didn't get the votes because these
people wrongfully targeted him with uh
political laware we're a Banana Republic
this is all a farce and some level of
violence maybe just 2020 sort of Street
Riot level uh but maybe more there is
some level of reaction that I love all
of that up to the violence so yes what
is this is the first time in our
lifetimes where whoever wins the
election I think the other team will not
regard it as legitimate I think if
Hillary won in
2016 the Republicans would be like all
right we knew Trump wasn't going to win
like they pulled out all the stops like
we we shot we swung for the fences we
didn't get it they'd be understanding I
hate her you know but this is how
politics work this kind of like what do
we expect uh
in 2020 I think if Trump got in the if
Trump got in again uh I don't I think
the Democrats would think he's
illegitimate in the sense of like in
2016 but not in the same way that he
stole it right like this guy doesn't
have a right to be president it's kind
of more their mindset this year I think
if Biden wins they will say it was
stolen and all this lawfare and if Trump
wins I think it'll be like this is
completely Beyond The Pale he's a felon
these people don't believe in the same
country we do like we can't sit down and
have discussion anymore so we are
reaching a kind of political breaking
point which I am very in favor of and I
am very hopeful
about okay talk to me about a national
divorce why are you hopeful I don't
think I don't I wasn't referring to
National divorce my comment just now uh
I'm just you refering I'm just referring
to this idea of a
mass disbelief in the legitimacy of
Elections and government because it's
really he said we can't sit down and
talk to each other anymore meaning the
point being that if you think this
system is
unsalvageable then you come to my way of
thinking that there's no point in
sitting down and talking because these
talks aren't being done in good faith uh
my opponents don't value my life at all
or they see see the world in ways that
are so fundamentally opposed to my own
that there's really no point in talking
because even best intentions we going to
be talking past each other and once you
have enough of a population who thinks
this prohibition is a good example if
you have enough people who are like this
is just [ __ ] and we talk about it
this just makes no sense and I'm not for
it then people just ignore uh enough of
the population ignores the law and does
what they decide is the right thing to
do and then it gets harder and harder to
maintain the sort of for my view
illegitimate nation state H okay uh so
let me see if I understand that uh in
practice so you like that we are having
uh contention between the two sides that
they both view this moment is just so
catastrophically ridiculous that this
whole thing is rigged they'll use maybe
different words but it's it's
illegitimate this process is completely
broken and now by default they're all
either at your position or closer to
your position and you guys now can at
least have a discussion about okay how
do we respond to this and the way that
we respond to this is it will just be
completely organic from the ground up
people will start saying uh this law
being imposed upon me is completely
asine and I feel that way because uh if
I'm a republican I'm just any in the
Democrats in office I'm just be like
nope I'm not gonna do that so I don't
know if this one C is another example
yeah perfect I was going to say the
border so uh you've got the governor of
Texas saying I don't care that you want
to let people in I'm going to lay razor
wire and and everybody can just deal
with it uh and you think that there'll
be so many of those little things that
it weakens the power of the state as we
recognize it today yes I wouldn't say um
completely organic I'd say largely
organic but other than that yes
everything you just said yes okay what
part won't be organic because I think
there's going to be astroturfing and
there's going to be people uh
manipulating and not using this word in
negative sense uh sentiment influencers
uh pushing people to become you know
more radicalized and less like let's sit
down and figure this out okay in your
sort of playing out the war games of all
of this is there a positive feedback
loop that you grow concerned about that
could push beyond what you're
comfortable with or yes because I think
violence sings its own song and once
things start getting violent this idea
that it's just going to end nicely
almost never happens it certainly does
not happen in in the short term it's
going to be you know a lot of bad things
almost always so I'm very concerned uh
this
this you know this whole talk of January
6 being an Insurrection it's talk about
the boy K wolf like if you think this is
as bad as you know the right can get
like you need to study your history
because if they popped off it would not
be symmetrical to 2020 if you had a
bunch of right-wingers who have guns who
really want to take matters into their
own hands it's not going to be pretty
you know for the people at
CBS and they should be very careful of
edging people toward that
goal but you don't see anything in the
setup to 2024 that leads to that
response I see a lot my point is this is
what I'm talking about with kind of like
sticking the landing like I am glad that
there is this growing contempt uh for
the state and its legitimacy I'm
concerned though that it's like whoa
whoa whoa whoa whoa like let's not like
things have their own momentum uh and
that's when things can get out of hand
in a very bad way who would be our
gorbachov In This Moment who would be
the the Lynch pin guy that if they break
One Way Or Break the other way then it
determines to be the President right or
to me it's I put Trump at the center of
all this whether he wins or loses it
will come down to how he responds if he
loses and he's like hey look this was
law fair horrific they never should have
done it however everybody this don't
break into violence there's a better way
to handle this I brought Michael Mouse
on my uh
alternate uh cabinet to talk about a Way
Forward for you guys so that you don't
have to be under the Yoke of this
illegitimate government but at the same
time I want to be just expressly
committed to a nonviolent Rebellion
against this farce whatever or if he
wins being a uniter and having the
moment like at the end of the Civil War
where instead of um telling his people
to go home and become Rebels and be um
do gorilla Warfare tactics I think it
was Lee uh said look we lost we lost
fair and square everybody pack up go
home go back to your normal life and had
he in that moment encouraged them and
said this is illegitimate the north
should never be recognized go home and
be guilla Fighters it would have been a
very different post Civil War reunion
but they did have Guerilla Fighters they
have the
clan yes do you think that
Lee's um request that they all go home
and and peacefully reassimilate had an
impact or it did but it was a finite
impact right and and I don't I think I
I if my political opponents here's the
thing with regarding Trump which I think
I would guess literally like 70% of
people would agree with what I'm about
to say I think he did it he paid her off
and it's ridiculous to think of putting
someone in jail for this and if this was
anyone else other than Trump no one
would be advocating for this person at
his age to be put in prison that would
not be a thing um so I don't see how he
can say someone who's known for like uh
um kind of speaking his truth and you
know can say to his
people yeah they try to put me or they
succeed in putting me in jail but you
should validate them I don't see how
that that I don't even if he said those
words it's going to be on deaf ears or
they're going to think okay he's being
has a guntis said he's being forced to
say these things which would not be
inaccurate okay then help me understand
why you don't think this escalates to
something deeply
problematic to escalates the violence
just I am very concerned about that I'm
not that's that I very concerned that's
my
concern period yeah no and we should do
this I don't really have a um I think
one of the costs of when you have an
elite population who have spent Century
manipulating and lying to the populace
at a certain point people's just tune
them out so I don't know what happens
then I think the other the the the
counter to that is I think people
on both sides broadly speaking the right
and the left are very heavily
law-abiding you know even the people who
are causing carage during 2020 were
still a small part of the population and
they were allowed to do this because the
police were were happy to stand down so
I think if violence broke out it
wouldn't necessarily be allowed to play
out as much because it didn't serve a
political purpose um but I think I don't
think the right is as close to popping
off as I fear in my you know worst
moments what makes you think that and
you're more so moments it's not really
kind of um it's not kind of in this in
these bubbling under conversations you
know what I mean they don't really it's
no one's organizing militias no one's
kind of mustering all this other stuff
that it's not really so for that to
happen it would really look differently
it wouldn't be just this kind of
overnight people are burning down cities
it would be much more targeted and and I
don't see that being uh uh happening and
if it is I think they're being
infiltrated by the feds but and not
without without cause right uh if Trump
is sentenced to jail time which I think
is gon to H when's this going to air uh
probably in the next two weeks okay he's
getting sent on July 11th so before he
before the before he airs for sure or
before this will air before he sentenced
yes I think he's going to jail don't you
I honestly haven't looked closely enough
at this I don't know I I think there's
every incentive for them to put so they
want him to that is I think the judge
was going to say go to jail and then I
don't know how I'm not attorney but I
think you have an immediate appeal and
it's going to go to the Supreme Court
very quickly um and I think you know
even the lefties on the Supreme Court
are you know there was all this talk
about this happened about kicking him
off the ballot and I said I bet you this
gets overturned by the Supreme Court and
I bet it's gonna be 90 and all these
conservatives like oh my God you're
crazy even the Dei hire even the Dei
hire she's still a judge with the great
reputation who knows the law it was 90
you can't just kick someone off a ballot
so I think if it gets the Supreme Court
which it inevitably will I think they'll
be
extremely reticent to send a president
to prison um especially during a
campaign season they don't like that
they they don't like upsetting the
appart yeah um Do You Feel Like We are
in and you might not necessarily uh be
bothered by this but do you feel like
we're in Banana Republic territory where
it's just like political law fair not
yet but it's getting
there I mean well when the president's
wife starts running for president that's
Banana Republic territory um so that's
kind of it's it's very kind of
incestuous situations that the Brazil
court with Christina kersner who and and
Eva Peron and all this other [ __ ] uh
in Argentina um I think we got a ways to
go I think here's another example of why
we're not in Banana Republic territory
eminent domain eminent domain is do you
know about this no that's amazing okay
see this is this is if the corporate
press cared about people being informed
this would be oneon-one stuff eminent
domain means if I think you Tom are a
drug dealer I can go to your house as
the cops seize your bank accounts your
car whatever you use to further your
drug deal and then you who's now broken
car lists have to fight back and
prove to the contrary it's not this
system of um
uh uh you know you were found guilty and
blah blah
blah as a result of this cops steal more
from people than our burglaries and
robberies combined this they recently
broke this this uh um barrier very great
accomplishment for them and of course
they have a huge incentive to take those
Ferraris and Corvettes and houses
because they get to sell it off and they
keep the proceeds for pennies on the
dollar state byst state have started
limiting the no that's not eminent
domain I'm talking about asset forfeit
I'm sorry eminent domain something
completely different yeah emminent
domain
take that take the house yes holy crap I
need another do wow I really didn't
understand this holy [ __ ] eminent okay
eminent domain is the idea that if I
want to build a highway I can take Tom's
house and put a highway through it
separate issue asset forture is Tom's a
drug dealer I think I'm a cop I can take
all his property and then it's
presumptively guilty and you have to
fight back and and prove your innocence
to get it back so it's completely
asymmetrical to you know normal jurist
Prudence right and as a result of this
cops take more than all other robberies
combined but state after State now is
limiting this so that is a sign that
we're not in a Banana Republic territory
because Banana Republic is basically the
cops decide whereever the laws at a
given moment and you have no kind of
property property rights or rights in
your property your own person uh uh to
be safe from the police but you don't
think that voting had any influence on
that it did have some I'm just saying
the ability of any individual to impa
it's it's the vote has less impact than
that person who has the politicians ear
so that vote you as a voter will have
much less impact than me as a real
estate realtor being like hey or me as a
donor being like you know what they took
one of my Mansions do you want to get
reelected that's how power really works
interesting so that's really interesting
and seems self-evidently true to be
hugely
impactful uh I don't know if I'm fully
on your team that the public when they
get loud enough it doesn't matter it
does matter but I'm saying that one you
voting is not going to matter although
if you want to do it more power to you
so but if you matter then you then your
your voice will
matter if you matter your voice will
matter that's very well said
indisputable now why then because that's
a freakishly corrupt system it's not
corrupt it's human
nature why are those two mutually
exclusive because the idea that everyone
should have an opinion on everything and
that opinion should be validated is
ridiculous okay so this is I have to
keep uh hold in my mind your frame of
reference uh so you did you feel very
comt I think of was Socrates that
basically said democracy makes no sense
because these people are not educated
enough to have an opinion uh no cuz I
don't like that word education in there
because it's easier to train a smart dog
than a dumb one and the educated people
are often the most malevolent um it was
bakunin who was fighting Marx because
this they were the two strains of
Communism in the 1860s and you know Marx
had his totalitarian version and bakunin
had his Anarchist version and bakunin's
like your idea of Scientific Socialism
which was what Marxism was presented as
is God help you if you're not a
scientist so very quickly the elite
becomes self validating and anyone who's
not part of this educated master class
is by definition uned it's funny how um
you see all these conservatives being
like oh you should have taken IQ test
you know to to be able to vote it's like
who do you think is going to be
administering these tests and one of the
questions will be like are you if you're
not vaccinated you automatically have a
low IQ so they're just going to have the
people in power are going to have the
test run to maintain their power they're
not interested in having everyone have a
say that makes no why would
they well let me answer that question uh
and this is what I was getting at with
the how does a corrupt system yield
these positive results if you can think
longer term then you would because you
want a system that works for you you
want a system that works for your kids
and ideally you want a system that makes
you feel like you have integrity that
I'm voting for something that uh follows
my value system but but Tom have you
you've had you you ran an enormous
company I'm sure you had to deal with La
all the time right how does the law work
there's a judge or a tribunal Y and your
lawyer job is to give the judge the
rationalization for why they should vote
for you right so when I'm a realtor and
I call a politician it's not like you
know what they're really screwing me man
like you got know it's like no what
you're doing is really hurting blah blah
blah they give him an excuse so he
maintain and what he could say the
public so he maintains the sense of I'm
fighting for the good guys I'm a moral
person
even though it's being geared toward
helping that Realtor whoever that person
is who's calling him at that moment
listen I believe in real politique you
have to deal with the world the way that
it actually is and if you're in the
middle of a power game then you have to
play to win yes uh but at the same time
I do believe in being a person of
integrity and I've been put in enough
situations where I could have made a far
easier choice and maybe nobody would
have even known about it but I would
know about it and so I did I've made
decisions that have cost me tens of
millions if not hundreds of Millions
millions of dollars a politician might
not be able to afford that because at a
certain point I'm going to get voted out
but it's always going to be a percentage
so sure and yes to the voted out part
that's a whole different thing um and
look I am not a saint remember I look at
myself and say bro it's way too easy for
you to end up being the Nazi guard and
not the person hiding an Frank in their
closet you call yourself bro uh I do yes
very much so in fact uh I distrust
myself very um my emotions will lead me
astray so I'm constantly trying to be
very wary of the things that I will want
to do and what my initial impulses will
be and on and on but I think the moments
where I seem the craziest to you are the
moments where um you lose sight of I
think that people can be swayed by ideas
and so I'm in the idea business I'm
about trying to get the best idea out
into the world now I may be completely
delusional because of the asymmetry that
you so cruy introduced me to that uh
people can break someone's mind far
easier than they can build them up but I
when I look at okay how close are we
getting to a Banana Republic I really
want people to go and look I don't have
kids but I still want the world to be
better for the next generation of kids
that just seems like that that is my
value system and I want to live in
accordance with my values so by putting
that idea out there by living according
by showing people you can have a set of
values and live according to them it
will make you feel good good about
yourself and you're by yourself and
that's the whole [ __ ] point of life
and now like hey what is the honorable
thing here to pursue and I feel like if
nobody talks in that language if nobody
puts forth the idea of you ought to live
an honorable life you ought to have a
goal that is about not only your
well-being you should take yourself into
consideration 100% but also the
well-being of others if nobody talks
about it then people don't have the the
idea to bring into their life you keep
use I don't think anything you said is
crazy first of all you keep using this
word people as if humanity is
homogeneous in terms of their psychology
or their
morality that's absolutely insane okay
uh I will I will Define what I mean by
that because of course I'm uh giving you
the Punchy answer I'm just to say one
sentence because you demonstrated to the
contrary when you were talking to those
inner city kids and you gave them good
ideas and 98% of them you were Whistling
Dixie and 2% so that's what I'm talking
about okay perfect that's what I heard
and now what I want to say is it it is
universal nothing is universal I know
you somebody's mentally ill broken right
I got it yeah he implied it we all heard
I'm just gonna move on Mr mes so if if
you'll let me set that aside now you can
go okay I need to go Downstream I need
to get people in they're young if I get
people when they're young I can
introduce these ideas all people uh uh
again I'm asking you to let me set aside
if somebody's below a certain
intellectual threshold uh they won't be
able to do it unfortunately if somebody
encounters an accident if somebody has
mental illness schizophrenic some who's
nor typical right somebody who is unable
to uh think through these issues but the
the vast majority of humanity is wired
in such a way that you will be able to
get them on a good path so the perfect
example is the people in the inner city
um so for instance you actually brought
this up and I didn't stop you at the
time cuz I didn't want to break your
flow but uh I met a kid once who was
smarter than me in that he could process
raw data faster than I could okay and he
was very unsuccessful in life and I was
like hey why are you unsuccessful why
aren't you even trying you're so smart
and he said oh my mom told me that
people the world doesn't want people
that look like me to succeed my God
awful awful and was he ugly he was not
but he was not white which was his
punchline okay and so I was like even if
that's true that's the worst advice in
the world because of how it impacts your
behaviors yes so I'm just like and who
cares what the world wants [ __ ] the
world in that case yeah yeah totally so
anyway introduced him to the Kobe Bryant
quote boobs don't block dunks no matter
how much people hate you you can get so
good at a thing that they can't stop you
uh so I'm just trying to say you can I
like that quote a lot it's so [ __ ]
good yes uh so if you can get
people to for instance the number of
words that a child Hears by the age of
three is is going to wildly impact how
their brain develops this is I believe I
I'm not sure if I'm conflating this at
one point Drew is going to figure this
out for me uh but I always attribute it
to Jeffrey Canada uh Jeffrey
Canada looked at why are middle CL
middle class kids successful and
low-income kids are not like in terms of
Life prospects and he said a big part of
it is the number of words that a kid
Hears by the age of three because of
what it does to the language centers of
their brain plausible to me and the
ratio of positive to negative words and
so if kid hears 5 million words by the
age of three instead of 3 million which
is what they hear in the inner cities uh
just has this massive impact on their
language centers and then if they get
70% as encouraging things you can do it
well done Bravo uh versus don't do that
stop that's stupid why why are you doing
that uh when the ratio is 70 positive 30
Negative they do well when the in the
inner cities it's exactly reversed and
they hear 30% positive and 70% negative
he was like if I could just get people
to understand that will have this
massive impact in terms of the actual
development of their brains so I'm just
saying if an idea can then manifest in a
physical way it's all about you have to
like get these ideas out there you have
to get people to adopt them because it
will have this massive impact so this is
me responding saying humans are humans
and so even though there is there are
breaking points where somebody can I
think it's below like 84 or whatever
they are they are technically a [ __ ]
like that's the actual definition of it
may not be 84 but it's somewhere around
in there uh so sure there are going to
be some people that just don't meet the
criteria but focusing on the people for
whom that does work they are close
enough to Universal that you should just
get all of those ideas that prove over
time to be useful first of all 85 is one
standard deviation below the mean so
you're just hand waving away a third of
the population so you're starting I'm
probably wrong then about the actual
number you're under first you're
underestimating because if those metrics
using your own numbers why wasn't it 30%
of those inner city kids who liked your
ideas why was there only two well
because now we're getting into uh the
brain an adult can change but they won't
because there is so much neurological
baggage working against them uh maybe
you find this interesting enough I'll
give you a real answer so here's what's
really happening uh the brain exists in
a just bath of heuristics okay and it
has to you have to filter out more
information than you let in yes and so
if you know that neurologically your
brain is just screaming for one
heuristic after another uh you begin to
understand that oh people just live
their life by rules of thumb there is
actually a giant Blank Spot in Your
Vision which nobody perceives because
the brain goes don't wor I got you and
will fill that in right this yes ex my
point now as you get older all of those
heuristics become they're hardwired
literally through a process called
myelination so it is actually easier for
you to perceive the world through those
heuristics literally calorically easier
for you to perceive the world through
those fistic than it is to break out of
them and so while you can go through the
tremendously difficult process of
letting those melinated connections
atrophy and then build new connections
so that you make the new more useful
ways of being uh they become the
cognitively easier things to do it it is
just an unbelievable amount of energy
and you think that a vast majority of
people are interested in using an
unbelievable amount of energy for 2%
that's what I ballpark to that's why I
gave up on adults remember I covered
this so I'm not speaking to the 98% as
adults I can't it's pointless so I'm
just trying to sway the people that are
swayable now I've made up the 2% to
98% but because I refuse to believe in
futility for people that aren't watching
he is looking at me like I've lost my
mind so I'd like to give you a chance to
or I was technically looking like you
never had it so let's be let's be
precise okay fair I I think you are and
I'm baffled y I think you are grossly
overestimating the mental capacity of
someone who has a 100 IQ okay they are
living they cannot think in it it's
just incomprehensible to someone of your
intellect it's they're not sitting down
and grappling with the great ideas of
the world that's beyond their Ken it's
the kind of thing like I'm never going
to be some kind of huge like bodybuilder
it's not [ __ ] possible where there's
lots of guys genetically have that
capacity these people do not have the
capacity or interest and what's the
payoff for them either to kind of Juggle
a things at once in their head they
don't have the bandwidth for it doesn't
mean they're bad people but it means
that they're not reachable in the way
that you're arguing for and they're
functionally
fundamentally different human beings in
the same way that my brain and Steven
brain if he were alive and and mobile
are fundamentally different humans Can
you steal man what I'm saying what do
you think my strategy is um everyone
should read
minec that's what I heard it's good time
for the joke um I if I could steal man
your position you would say that yes it
takes a lot of work and most people
aren't interested in willing the work to
do the work but other than humans who
are but no fault their own somehow
incapacitated they have the capacity
even as adults though it's much much
much easier as children to work through
these issues and put their brains in a
fundamentally better direction that is
in touch with reality yep that's all
perfect I'll just add one thing so with
adult completely disagree that's great
and that'll be fun to talk through uh
the only thing I'll add is with adults
I'm just trying to get better her istics
so that okay they're like I'm only going
to operate on heuristics thank you for
giving me those and I watched over the
course of from Co till now heuristics
change everybody's lives correct and as
new heuristics enter the field through
very bright people uh all of a sudden it
was like oh whoa I had a new narrative
to your point about Alternatives and I I
have watched like miraculous amounts of
change in like a four-year period it's
been incredible and has really driven
home for me that the right idea set in
the right way makes massive change it
does primary focus is kids but it's not
massive change in terms of there's going
to be some people it'll reach and the
rest will be bandwagon okay it'll be
euristic for them and so what is so is
our disagreement over the impact of the
bandwagon people the no I think the
number not the impact the just the sheer
volume you're saying so the impact of
the sheer volume will you give me that
wait I don't if that's what you're
saying that where we're disagreeing is
that I you think I'm being blind to the
sheer volume
of people that
um will fail to adopt the new heuristics
that will fail to be able to create new
heuristics is so big they're just all
bandwagon people that there's so many of
them that you're never going to be able
to fight against them no you can you can
give them the good new ristics okay but
you're thinking you're converting them
and I'm saying no you're not converting
them they're just getting new ristics
and it's the same just putting on a new
set of clothes they're not actually
doing the work okay that's that yeah so
the number of who actually sit down and
do the work and and burn those calories
in terms of reprograming the brain is
not going to be a vast majority it's
going to be a tiny tiny minority and the
vast majority I don't think have the
capacity and you think they
do ah okay I see where we're
disconnecting um I I like to be
optimistic and I go about what about
questioning your feelings yeah no 100%
this is why I'm I am being honest about
what Isen happening right now because
privately I over the last seven or eight
years have grown to
lament something that bothers me because
I think it is dangerous and true here's
what is dangerous and
true it is true that holding nuanced
opinions is very difficult and I think
of myself I'm relatively smart if we're
looking at a bell curve I'll be generous
and say
I'm above average but I'm nowhere near
somebody who's really bright that's not
true just
my no no what give me numbers because
very bright it can be what do I think my
IQ is yeah what you think someone who's
very bright oh very bright north of 135
you're you don't think you're north of
135 definitely not you're deranged
interesting you're completely deranged
135 is not particularly impressive okay
if 135 is an impressive then where is
that you know it's like 135 is someone
who's like I I don't have the I wish
someone could look up the numbers but I
think it's like someone who's like 63
okay we see 63 people all the time
they're tall but it's not com no fo okay
which is tall but not that's 115 I think
it's one then I'm in there is my gut
instinct you are you are smarter than
someone who 63 is tall that strikes me
okay great I really don't want to
because I'm unlikely to see myself
accurately so great uh what I am trying
to map out is that
um I totally agree that there is uh this
very large number anyway getting back to
what is dangerous and true uh whether
I'm in the group out of the group almost
doesn't matter I the feeling that I get
is I have a hard
time understanding some of these very
like when BLM popped off I was frozen
because something felt wrong but I
didn't know what
and so I was trapped by great name bad
planning and
so I remember my wife posted about it
and I kept saying I wouldn't something
just doesn't feel right but because I
couldn't articulate what it was and so
as it all came out and people gave me
new heuristics I was like that's what's
happening I was like damn if I can't do
this quickly like it took me a long
[ __ ] time to wrap my head around
around what was happening and how I was
how I had a worldview that wasn't
accurate and updating it and [ __ ] it
took a long time so anyway I was like
whoa Nuance positions are extremely
difficult if somebody like me is
struggling and I'm reasonably smart we
don't have to get lost in that again but
if I can't do it or I can't do it fast
then this is really going to be scary
but I'm not just here's where it gets
dangerous I'm not willing to just go hey
quote unquote Elites think through
everything for me and just tell me what
to do or AI think through everything and
just tell me what to do both of those
sound [ __ ] terrible
so it's true though I acquas to your
point that there is a very narrow band
of people that can really not be
Bamboozled by a frame of reference where
somebody can't give them a frame of
reference that they just immediately
adopt something Trump is amazing at he
can quote unquote control the frame so
you bring an argument to him he'll just
Chang the frame and now you're arguing
about what he wants to argue about
absolutely brilliant yes very few people
can do it almost nobody can do it at
that level anyway that is dangerous in
that you can't just give it over to
Elites to think through it because they
will slide towards tyranny and Madness
uh but it's also true and so now what
now what Michael when you say you can't
give who do mean you all of us none of
us can afford to do that there's
simpletons whatever you want to think
there's no us there's if you're the
elite why would this be bad for you if
you're the elite I don't I mean I mean
if I'm I'm if I'm n yeah the elites I'm
sure are like yeah let's do it right so
it's not all of us so so if you're
creating this binary between the elites
and everybody else Elite rule is in many
ways inevitable people are going to have
someone who's going to be managing
aspects of their lives my goal is to
have that Elite be as decentralized as
possible because as I was saying earlier
it doesn't make sense for one person to
be making your decisions about your
accounting or your health and also your
legal practices but somehow in a
politician they're going to speak for
you when it comes to the environment and
gay rights and you know War it's it's
this bizarre package deal that we accept
in no other part of our life no one here
wants to have Coca-Cola pick their
groceries for them and their meats and
their shoes it's not a thing um but
again I I think a lot of people want to
be and there's nothing wrong with that
like as I said earlier I want my lawyer
to tell me what to do I want my doctor
to tell me what to do I want my
accountant to tell me what to do so this
idea of deference to the elites and I'm
saying this is an anarchist isn't
inherently wrong what's wrong is having
this one-sized fits-all Elite which is
imposing its will and there's no on you
with force and there's no exit door I
can fire my lawyer or I can have a
second opinion doctor to all these other
things if a lot of my neighbors like you
know Governor Abbott he's my governor no
I want a governor who can stand for
something yeah uh not to rehash the
initial thing but I I feel like you slip
you jump the track on level where that
level of thinking makes sense uh because
you I have a base assumption which maybe
you've got a great challenge for but I
have a base assumption that you do need
to organize things using some structure
yes and the current structure that we
have certainly in the west feels very
usable um where you've got your local
keep saying we yeah I don't know so yes
you have to gr there are different
there's different there's business we
have structures talk we and my family no
but I mean I can talk we and my state
what I'm saying is there's different
structures like there's the structure of
like business I go to the bookstore the
the publisher prints books the books go
to the bookstore I pay the book Merchant
I get my book that's a structure yep
drug laws are a structure Co laws I mean
there's there's overlapping structures
so some of the structures were work very
very very well and some of the
structures work very very poorly so to
say that broadly speaking our structure
is working I think it's it glosses over
things that could be easily be
subdivided okay I don't disagree with
any of that okay I'm just saying you
always get triggered with the word we uh
in any moment it depends on what I'm
referencing whe why I'm saying we so in
that exact moment I was thinking about I
think uh we in California uh or maybe I
picked that up because you started
talking about the governor but uh when
you are looking at the structures there
are some things that should be handled
at the family level there are other
things that should be handled at the
community level other things that should
be handled at the state other things
handled at the country other things that
require Global cooperation uh so there
are times you made a micro expression
that tells me something didn't land this
whole Global cooperation like what you
don't think what what is that is it what
the aliens are coming like what are you
talking about uh over
fishing okay that's that's but that's it
doesn't have to be coroporation it's
just you have to monitor the the um I'm
a huge Marine zoologist by the way yes
[ __ ] I knew that that for that reason
that could be very much at the very
least a function of uh the waters around
each like Japan is causing a problem
with the Wailing you know MH it doesn't
have to be Global okay but you so like
if Mexico's or some country if Chad or
some landlock country is against whaling
we don't need them okay right uh I'll
bring up I don't know what your take is
going to be on this at all and I don't
have a well formulated one but obviously
climate is one that most people go to
immediately that it does require Global
cooperation isn't it useful that this
this thing that is so kind of uh uh
ambiguous justifies government doing
something to literally everyone on Earth
one of my favorite tweets was uh about G
tunberg um uh you know the weather's
favorite special needs child saying how
um there's no one one more priv
privileged on Earth than the white girl
who refuses to go to to school until
literally everyone on Earth changes the
weather for her um the the climate stuff
is not having global cooperation it
wouldn't need Global cooperation even if
all the climate science were true it
would simply be a function of the
largest polluter agreeing not to admit
CO2 and everything will be fine you
don't need some of these little
countries to sign on at all it just
needs to have like the big three or four
and the climate the the um carbon
emissions would be collapsed to near
nothing but I think people's point on
that is if they're true uh if only the
us or only the UK does it it won't make
a difference that's not Global you just
need you just I agree with you right
they're correct International does that
feel better sure that's much better than
Global okay so International cooperation
but that's very different though Fair
totally acquest but I'm just my point is
I feel like your ideology works at some
levels and not at others I I think the
climate change ideology is working very
well in a very nefarious way
yeah that's a whole different one which
I don't know enough about uh and have
inherent skepticism based on what I've
seen over the last four years I would
have been totally on board until I saw
that I was being lied to left right and
Center this also speaks to what we're
talking about with revealed preferences
which is if I was genuinely I've said
this on Rogan and people lost their
minds and I'll say it again because I
was right if people in the know revealed
preferences are I can tell you I like
your headbands but if I'm never buying
them not wearing them how much do I like
them right so if I'm telling you I think
you're going to have rising sea levels
and I'm putting all my money on Coastal
real estate I don't really think that
the sea levels are going to rise so if
you see all real estate agents
politicians they're buying beachfront
property they're not thinking it's going
to be underwater in 5 to 10 years so
that says a lot more than what their
mouths
do yeah there's no doubt about that um
okay uh talk to me about the national
divorce you have spoken about it before
you said earlier when I brought it up
you said ah that isn't what I was
talking about in this moment yeah um do
you want a national divorce and what
does that look like exactly I am
gladdened that as part of the Texas
where Texas where I am now Texas
governor of Republican Party platform is
to have a referendum on Texas
reasserting its independence and leaving
the union um I think it is going to be a
matter of time I think if I asked people
in 19 in sorry in
201 um 15 less than a decade ago 2014 a
DEC let's say a decade ago which do you
think is more likely that Texas secedes
from the union and becomes a country
again or Donald Trump will be our next
president 99% of people would say the
former right um I think this country has
been held together since the beginning
with Dum tax and string we have at very
least two separate cultures probably
more um and I think at a certain point
it's like why are we putting ourselves
through this and I think as you talked
about earlier with the Border there is
going to be increasing incentives and
increasing actions from different
Governors both Democrat and Republican
looking at what's being done in
Washington saying this doesn't speak for
me screw you uh M who's that there was
that quote about um uh uh uh justice
Warren made his decision let him enforce
it it's the kind of thing where it's
just like oh the president thinks this
happens Sanctuary cities right now where
it's just like yeah you know what Isis
and welcome here I don't care what the
federal government says happens with
drug legalization where you had
marijuana and all these drugs that are
legalized state level all illegal and
federal level every marijuana dispensary
is right now breaking the federal law at
a certain point they're like you know
we're just not going to enforce it or
the governor are like you're you're
coming across my border Over My Dead
Body so all these little things are
moving toward I think U um further
breaking up our Union which I think is
long overdue long overdue okay so the
reason that that would be good one there
's a sense of illegitimacy to this one
thing overseeing everybody yes uh two
there is um people no longer have to be
with people that you know like you said
just because a bunch of people think
Governor Abbott should be the governor
hey that doesn't speak for me and so I'm
able to sort of regionalize off you're
still going to have those problems but
at least maybe you're now having them
with people who think more like you are
there other reasons why you think that
would be good and I'm imposing that I'm
I have the whole thing about human
flourishing you've never really pushed
back on that so I'm guessing something
akin to that rides over the top of your
worldview as well not really because one
of the big counterarguments is like I
hope Texas secedes you're going to be
brok and you're going to be begging to
be moved back in America in a week and
the answer is there's lots of people
who'd rather be poorer and Freer and
live in a country that aligns more with
their value than wealthier and
subjugated so even if it's counter
flourishing I know using flourishing in
a broad sense not just meaning Financial
but even if it's counter flourishing in
the Financial sense there's plenty of
people who will be like fine I'll take
that gam Britain they have the NHS
socialized Healthcare Britain is is
poorer than the poorest American state
but they're like you know what we rather
have this and have this National healthc
care that we're obsessed with uh and
even though everyone's poor it's like
fine you want that more power to
you okay so uh is the thing that
overrides your
decisions
Freedom just you want choice you want
people to be able to make their own
decisions but I think freedom and human
flourishing are uh indistinguishable in
the terms of inseparable for the simple
reason that in a free system uh it is
the it by definition maximizes the
capacity of human beings to create
things of value and to provide for human
flourishing and are incentivized to do
so what do you do you know
bology balachi yeah yeah am I
pronouncing his name wrong I don't know
one of us is cuz I thought it was bology
Noy yeah I've met it yeah I think he's
might be one of the smartest people ever
met I know he's one of the smartest
people ever met yeah can do you know his
philosophy about the network State well
enough to break it down no I would not
feel comfortable speaking for him I this
is a flaw in my personality I feel very
comfortable saying this is what I think
I understand uh so I'll break it down
andology by all means strike me down if
I am incorrect or everybody can watch
the episode that I did with bology where
he goes into this um okay so he has a
concept called the network
[Music]
ofes don't know how muchy think
itely uh is the more I learned about
money the more I realized that money was
going to be the way to fight against the
government most effectively yes and that
when Bitcoin was
created and I don't know if they were
sort of intentionally quiet about this
or if I just missed where they basically
said PS government this is how we take
your power away yes um but by creating
Bitcoin as I learned about it I was like
wait hold on like this is going to strip
the government of a ton of its power yes
so I uh and this is obviously why I
thought you might know bology so B's
whole thing is okay uh once you take
money out of the hands of the government
now people really can begin to organize
themselves along different lines and he
said the everybody is trapped in this
box of thinking that the lines that are
going to be drawn are going to be
Geographic and he said in a world where
money can travel at the speed of light
instantly in a world where communication
can happen at the speed of light
instantly people can live anywhere and
they can organize themselves not along
Geographic States but along Network
Community even if they're not together
States and that people will vote and
live lives according to laws according
to their group now laws is the first
word that triggered something in my
subconscious that maybe I'm not
remembering the words that he used well
uh so set that one aside yeah Norms
maybe even closer to what he likes
they're imposed so it's rules yeah okay
perfect so in his vision there is sort
of this complete
disillusion of all of the things that we
think of as the organizing bodies of Our
Lives do you know how you can sum all up
all everything you just said in one word
Anarchy yeah you are describing the
anarchist system of governance M but
when I brought that up to you earlier
the what I heard you say because one of
my as I whenever I have somebody that
thinks in a way that is um very new to
me I'll try to map at okay what do I
think about this uh so that I can at
least find like in my nent approach to
this topic where will I Collide or want
Clarity or whatever and one of the
things um I wanted to better understand
was well if you in in reality you're GNA
have this moment where there is an state
that is anarchist and they're going to
if they have resources that somebody
else wants they're just going to get
trampled and so just what do you mean
justan you mean they're just gonna get
[ __ ] they're not gonna fight back I
make a base assumption that they would
not be well enough organized but you may
have already thought through this
problem and I me this is another
asymmetry where like you have a small
population and even if you have an army
it's still going to punch way above its
weight yeah but in the beginning you did
say and which is why I never even asked
a question you were like you're going to
have this isolated region they're going
to be living by these principles they're
going to be vulnerable to other people
sure that's why I would tell them to be
careful I'm not saying they can't win
but I'm saying if you're going to take
on the whole world like really think
things through right whereas if it's
even smaller if it's just like some
ranch or something like that it might be
easier for them to get away with it
because they're not trying to make an
example that everyone else on Earth can
see so if when I had asked you at the
beginning of the interview hey is this
something that you want to see everybody
adopt what would that look like would it
be a better place would it be worse you
didn't go yeah let me tell you this
thesis about Network States and how
we're going to group up so there's some
reason that that wasn't your answer at
the beginning and I would like to cuz
now it seems like hey you're making my
case for me but am I or is is this
somehow doesn't scratch your itch so
what he bagian are doing are I think the
same and I I don't know if I'm blowing
his cover I don't want to speak for him
certainly I Define anarchism as the
precept that you do not speak for me and
everything else being application I
don't know what the second half of that
statement means does it matter yes but
we get a second um point being I am
advocating for dogs and he's for puppies
and he's advocating for baby dogs so
he's giving you a description for people
who need to know what it would look like
and how it could work in practice
whereas I and they he's um doing an endr
run around the concept of government
legitimacy he's like you know what you
believe governments are legitimate
that's cool here's an alternative so in
the same way that if you have a public
road and a private road and the toll for
the private road is significantly
cheaper and the road is uh smoother less
potholes and less accidents you don't
have to persuade anyone that private
roads are better they're just going to
go by the benefits as opposed to doing
the work mentally I'm looking at it the
other way I'm going at it top down that
all this is
illegitimate have that as you're
operating assumption and I'm not here
building possible Alternatives so I
think our worldviews are me and him are
extraordinarily uh uh complimentary and
we're speaking toward different types of
minds I think he speaks to people who
are much more um established and system
Builders and probably older in life and
and can think things through whereas I'm
trying to
radicalize uh especially young
people and it's much more of an
emotional approach in the sense of
having them have this visceral
abhorrence and and and and hatred
interesting so what I just heard and
tell me if I got this right is that
that's a really clear way of saying okay
what bology wants to do is paint the
picture of where you're going we need
people like that I'm glad he's doing it
not just what speaks to me as a person
what I want to do is tell you why the
current status should enrage you yes
okay it does speak to me as a person but
I just don't I'm not the guy uh whose
approach is his and he's doing a like
we're talking about with entrepreneurs
he doesn't need me there's his place on
the shelf and he's doing a superb job of
it got it okay um I have to know I want
my audience to
know more about you and why you're so
hard to put in a box I find you utterly
fascinating so I was fortunate enough to
find myself at your house in Austin
which thank you by the way I was very
generous I was a stranger to you
entirely when I walked through the door
that's not true I've eaten a lot of
quest bars in my day I'm not kid did you
know that I was the guy no no yes did
cuz you followed me on Twitter once okay
oh interesting I didn't know you had any
of those puzzle pieces put together as
far as I knew when I I didn't that that
was you though when you that's what I'm
saying know as far as I knew in that
moment I was just a stranger to you uh
and what I said with to you is you have
been on my radar as somebody so
interesting because I cannot put you in
a box uh it has been really enjoyable to
map your thinking and figure out sort of
the anarchist approach and I'm actually
beginning to understand Anarchist
approach not and fair fa
you're certainly maybe not in this
interview but in others have made that
abundantly clear uh but there's also
like all these crazy sides to you so I'm
I'm gonna they're all crazy just some
just pass better but they're so
interesting so you give talks on
networking which I would have not
understood based on your public I know
you don't like persona but I don't know
what okay cool you're public persona but
because I've had a private communication
with you
uh on WhatsApp I went to my wife and
like I was like he's good at a thing
that I I couldn't be more toned de to
this is before I knew that you did
networking stuff because I literally
reached out and was like Hey thank you
for having me over I would love to have
you on my show and you without missing a
beat I mean there might have been a
brief exchange on that but as if you had
Tourette's you started sending me uh
fish stuff like things about uh fish
aquariums I don't remember how it came
up but I was like I was I didn't just
bring it up out of nowhere it felt like
that to me oh man look because I again
this is a me I lack the ability to um
build relationships like that so I went
to my wife and I was like this is
incredible like he's picked a thing he
cares about and he's just like sharing
it with me hold on hold on no no no no
no no no no you want to see like if it
was or if I said hey tell me about did I
say something about the aquarium house I
didn't just bring up fish out of nowhere
I'm so curious now oh yeah because I
sent you uh a picture of um the Harvey
PE card drawing of me which was fish
story about my aquarium and then you're
like was that out of the blue well you
had booked me on the show yep right so I
was giving you a little bit of backstory
about who I am got it and then you're
like oh is that Co that fact you have in
the picture about fish true because I
was working on a graphic novelet that
was a graphic novel I was involved in
already and then when you were asking me
about fish I was giving you more fish
information got it it wasn't out of
nowhere that's interesting to me it
would never I mean people would have to
read the specifics it would never occur
to me it was so wonderful and I'm trying
to learn from it that the way that you
felt like you invited me into this I
don't I didn't at that time know if you
talked about it publicly or not but
invited me into like this really
fascinating part of your life if you've
ever heard somebody say there's nothing
more interesting than talking to someone
who's passionate about a thing like I've
never thought about sea creatures before
but because you were so interested it
was are you using my line because I I
talk about this all the time so I don't
know if you're referencing this I say
there's two types and this is talks to
earlier about those people who are stuck
in their the buckel people I said you go
to a party what someone goes to a party
and you meet someone who's I don't know
a hamster breeder and there's two
approaches hamster breed reader that's
weird or sit down and tell me everything
and my people are the second one and the
first people I want to alienate and want
nothing to do with and to who do you
guys hate do you hate the guinea pig
people do you hate the rabbit they hate
somebody like which are the rare ones
like do you know how do you clean them
there so much there so to me
intellectual curiosity about something
anything
is basic to having any sort of
communication with them like if they
don't have that it's just like it's a
wrap my initial impression of you and
this is partly why I think I was so um
caught off guard by you so quickly
sharing something that clearly was like
a real deep interest of yours my initial
take on you was Internet troll somebody
was just trying to go for the ls I know
that's what I'm saying is that word just
exactly so I can't put you in the troll
box am in the troll but okay I had this
okay do you ever have IIA imagine
arguments no uh I think I know what you
mean sure I just have never given them a
name okay or I imagine a conversations
sure where I think through both sides of
this what I I've had this um imagin
conversation with you for weeks now
because yes because you said this when
we met like I don't know what box to put
you in and I'm glad I can pick your
brain on this I've often said that human
beings don't have a true false filter
they have an us them filter what
utility do these boxes serve you where
people who think like this other than us
or them I don't think it's that it's
certainly isn't that for me it is I'm
trying to be able to predict the um if I
do this thing with you or to you what
outcome will I get and so if I can
predict the outcome of an interaction
with somebody that's far more useful
because now I know what I'm going to get
if I can't predict the outcome then it
gets harder and so ultimately I'm trying
to filter people into known archetypes
okay they're more or less like this
nobody's completely the archetype
obviously but uh you can usually put
into an archetype yes so like take Cody
Sanchez an a incredible human being very
bright but when you think of her as a
driven entrepreneur it's like you're
going to get 80% of the way there you'll
be surprised at the margins but she
really fits neatly into that box both
socially both in real life like all of
the things I mean when I say that you
get to engage with her at that level now
I'm thinking uh you're an Internet troll
right but clearly very smart I've seen
enough of your inter where I'm like
you're fascinating but I'm always like
whoo like the troll will come in a weird
way or something that I would be
mortified by like I can't watch the
British office I am so horrified by that
kind of Comedy I just can't do it and I
heard you give like this three minute
dissertation about how you love comedy
where you are so uncomfortable and you
just want I forget when you say throw up
or you want your life tself whatever and
you're like and I just I love that and I
I hate that so much I am so
uncomfortable so anyway that tells me
you're that kind of person so I have
that kind of image in my mind when I
walk into your house and then I look at
your wall and you have all these comics
and so I'm like oh these are ironic so
I'm like oh I may have even asked you
something like like is this irony like
what is this you're like no I love
Comics so I'm like you've actually read
these Comics you're like yes because I
have a passion for comics and you were
so sincere and then I look over on the
island in your kitchen and there's a
Lego set fabuland and I was like oh
what's the Lego set and you said when I
was a kid I always wanted fabuland and
now I have it constructed and everyone's
always happy in fabuland so when you
look at it it puts you in a good mood
and I was I'm just completely disarmed
it's really really interesting so
uh help me understand Michael malice
what are what are all the pieces you
just broke my brain because until you
said said that and you're right and I'm
wrong I
never I I I want to say almost never
think through how a person is going to
react I just do what I want and it's
worked for me and I surround myself with
people who I respect and who are
interest to me are interesting to me so
I and I want them to surprise me like if
I ask one of my friends you know what
you think of this book I don't want to I
want to be like okay I might be able to
guess broadly speaking but one of my
clest friend Steph there's a song I just
saw and I'm like I I think you'd
absolutely love the song she goes I can
see why you think that I don't so it's
kind of cool to me but I don't have a a
a career or whatever it is where I have
to think about how the person's going to
react I I think I always think of if
they say yes I do this if they say no I
do this and well I forget where I heard
this quote and it's been one things
that's helped me out the most in life
where someone said to me it's either a
yes or a no everything else is just
noise and if you look at that approach
when you're trying to work with someone
or something like that it's really takes
a lot of the emotion out of it and all
the sting out of it because if someone
doesn't return you've had to deal with
this a lot in your career I've had to
deal with this a lot in my career where
someone just blows you off like they
don't respond like if you don't if you
learn not to take it personally it makes
your life a lot easier and be like okay
if this editor doesn't respond to my uh
um proposal who's Plan B who's plan C if
this project is DOA what am I going to
do next that's kind of how I Orient
myself no I get that and being surprised
is fun that obviously is one of the
reasons that I found you so intriguing
um so but yes I am try I will update my
mental model every time somebody
surprises me and try to understand what
does that mean what does that tell me
about this person uh being able to
develop a rich theory of Mind of other
people is one of the great joys in life
for me I absolutely love it but I think
few people have Rich minds too
mine sure but why is that important well
just because earlier you're talking
about how so many people there there's
so much going on in there and I think
it's test patterns interesting um how
much of a guiding principle is that for
you in life extremely really yes is that
why you troll no I troll because it's
awesome um it's a guiding principle like
if I go to an event I have to make sure
I have an escape hatch do you mean that
literally like this could get dangerous
and I like if I'm not having fun I have
to have an like like if I'm at a dinner
party I better have backup you know what
I mean I'm not like I get asked to like
do these talks or like you know hey come
speak to our thing and it's just like
I'm G to be trapped there and like I
don't think there's any amount of money
that I can be paid for this because I
already know at the end they're going to
be like Oh see it wasn't so bad was it
I'm like you don't know me this is still
work it's very interesting very
interesting um give me the
what do you hope is the punchline of
Michael mice's life this was the title I
pitched for my biography e hubis that
they said
no uh it still would have been a better
title The Little Engine That Could but
shouldn't it's good I love
that yeah I love that so you're gonna be
successful at things that are I don't
think you literally mean you shouldn't
have but in the cheeky way yes awesome
Michael where can people follow you uh
twitter.com Michael malice and x.com
Michael malice malice. locals.com and
I've got a couple of fun books in The
Works which I'm very excited about
brother the second they already let me
know I'd love to have you back on this
was a lot of fun thank you much for
doing it all right everybody if you
haven't already be sure to subscribe and
until next time my friends be legendary
take care peace if you like this
conversation check out this episode to
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the democratization of everything has
given us some insight into how rotten
our institutions were in the first place
there's a kind of woke ification of the
right is that is happening it's like
professional wrestling nobody cares that
it's fake if I