Kind: captions
Language: en
I think the world would be a lot better
place if more people understood that
political Authority is inherently
illegitimate you got to care about this
transgender bathrooms what's your
opinion we didn't care about it 5
minutes ago we're not care about five
minutes from now but you this is the
most important thing happening in
America right now it's impossible to
convince a man of something if his
salary depends on it not being true and
when those leaders have personal
consequences very quickly uh they start
changing their tun
Michael malice welcome to the show thank
you for having me I'm very glad to have
you and I want to ask you would life be
better the world be better if tomorrow
instantly everybody became an anarchist
to the best of their abilities and I
mean in real life the word better is a
loaded word because I think a lot of
people when they hear the word better
think there's no cost right so I'll give
you another example let's suppose I
waved them magic wand and instantly
everyone's lifespan was exactly one year
better one year longer right well you'd
have a lot of kids dying at one year of
age right who otherwise would have been
still born so there's a huge cost there
right so if everyone became an anarchist
the best their ability I don't know what
being an anarchist the best of their
ability would mean for a lot of people I
don't think most people
think philosophically or at all um but I
think the world would would be a lot
better place if more people understood
that political Authority is inherently
illegitimate um and that we are all
individually responsible and accountable
for our lives and for our communities
and things like that okay where the
rubber mea Road how does it become
better if more people think that uh
government is illegitimate because you
would have far fewer police
enforcing nonsensical edicts from
sociopathic politicians you would have
far more of an incentive and a mindset
for people to form solutions to problems
that have otherwise been left to the
mercy of the state you would have no war
you would have far more interest on the
local level in getting things done and
making things happen um and there would
be a lot less animosity
which I think politics engenders in
almost all of us for the specific reason
that if I am I don't know my neighbors's
political views are I don't talk to them
right but now I have to care because
government forces us into a polity where
we basically have to have this
relationship that is nonsensical and
illegitimate if that's taken away then
their political views are the same as
basically their musical taste if I don't
have to hear it more power to you I
think fewer police that that one's going
to trigger people so if you're police
enforcing they're right the nonsensical
laws but uh why would that be an
automatic reaction to people recognizing
that government's power is illegitimate
because if I'm a cop right I would
understand I have no power to do half
the things that I'm alleged to be able
to do I think so here's my reaction is
that that makes the hypothesis that the
crimes are being committed because of
the state
not that they're just a natural state of
human no I'm saying most police activity
is inherently criminal things like if
you have some drug in your house I can
break down your door and wave guns
around that is insane um almost all of
these kind of militarized police um
attacks on people's homes which would
make sense in the context of if there's
a hostage right or someone's in imminent
physical danger you break down the door
this we we don't have time to mess
around but any other circum it makes
absolutely no sense and yet it happens
on a daily basis this is something that
under anarchism you would understand is
completely illegitimate and insane and
those cops you just saw I'm sure a lot
of people saw recently cops knocked on
the door some guy opened the door
holding the gun at his side he was
ex-military and they killed him and then
they doubled down saying you know we
were scared you know this is this is
psychosis you don't get to knock on some
one's door and if they're in their own
home having not pointing at you draw on
them and kill them and not have conse
quences for it I mean these people
aren't going to jail they're probably
not even going to get fired it's just
deranged and this is what having a
populace raised in government schools
tends to accept as the norm and just
because something is common doesn't mean
it's normal or acceptable okay that's a
very powerful thing that I want to come
back to but um so when I think about
anarchism and as an ideology it the sort
of maximizing Freedom everybody is
responsible for themselves everybody's
free to choose as they want it's
consensual relationships all around I
don't know I'd say maximizing freedom
because it's kind of a binary because
just because you understand state power
is illegitimate doesn't mean you're
really in a position to do anything
about it right true if I understand that
I'm a hostage in this jail right that
doesn't really mean I'm in a position to
get out of this jail yep so I don't like
the term maximizing because that implies
that if something is like smaller
government where it's AOK it's more like
a binary switch that okay this is all
[ __ ] got it okay so we have to tease
apart two different things one a world
in which you have anarchists living
under a state trying to sort of migrate
the state in One Direction versus the
snap your fingers and everybody's an
anarchist you keep saying everyone and I
pushed back on that before it's not
everyone I don't think everyone has I I
this isn't Disney uh you know politics
is not for everyone I'm not a fan of
democracy and there's nothing wrong with
that I shouldn't be having an opinion on
meteorology modern dance lots of quis I
mean there's you got a list of things I
should be running my mouth about like
there's no shortage so the idea that
somehow everyone should have an opinion
on the state and political philosophy is
ridiculous and the only reason we accept
it even as a hypothesis is that we're
taught to the contrary since we were
kids in government schools and through
corporate media it makes no sense
whatsoever well I think there's a bigger
question that we're going to have to
tackle which is why we end up in this
place anyway with States sure which
seems to me to be there's there is a
natural thing that happens when humans
organize that leads to some sort of
State CU I've heard you say that even at
the hunter gatherer level you're going
to find people that they've created some
sort of proxy of a state this is the
thing people have this belief um which
is a lie spread intentionally that any
sort of organization is a government and
they'll be like well without a
government who's going to protect you my
bodyguard isn't my president My
Bodyguard who's the one giving orders
The Bodyguard or you as opposed to who's
giving the orders the government or the
citizen so these are not analogous
phenomenon even though the service stely
being provided is
security okay is there a default thing
in the human mind that as we get
together in collectives that we we don't
necessarily have to end up in the kind
of states that we see now correct or any
state at all I do think hierarchy is
inevitable okay in fact hierarchy is
inevitable the term pecking order comes
from Birds right so this left anarchist
anarco communist idea that hierarchies
can be abolished is impossible and and
incoherent because even children do it
you know any kind of group you know it's
not the people who claim to be natural
leaders but if even in a party people
are going to be centers of attention
people are going to be running the show
like people find their niche in
different contexts different ways and
some people are followers in all
contexts that's nothing wrong with that
I mean there's many I don't tell my
lawyer what to do I don't tell my
accountant what to do I don't tell my
doctor what to do I sit down and shut f
up and I am subordinate to someone who
knows what they're talking about in that
context so and there's some people who
are like look I just want to do my job
put in hard days work take care of my
family and that is not just commendable
but heroic but they're never going to be
leaders and that's fine okay so it is
not a foregone conclusion that people
will end up with States correct it is a
foregone conclusion that humans as
animals are going to end up in a
hierarchical structure we see that way
deeper than just humans yes so then the
question becomes do you think there's a
reason that the preponderance of States
at least that exist right
now leverage that I mean I used it in
the definition that they end up in
states that we would recognize yes it's
it's it's organized systematized
banditry which why did that start
because it's a great way for people to
Rob populaces and get enormously
powerful enormously wealthy without
having a lift a finger okay so if that
is basically um a marketplace where an
efficienc arises that so I think it
presupposes that that some part of the
population wants power correct which is
I think not in dispute for anybody yeah
no I don't think people are going to be
weird about that one uh so we've got a
part of the populace they're going to
want power and the state as we see it
now the different flavors but the state
as we see it now is a uh a market
efficiency coming to the four where it's
a great way for a select few to Garner
to co-opt the money Focus whatever it is
that they're trying to co-op of the
populace the money is secondary I think
the power is primary and the status I
mean humans are status seeking animals
uh I don't think a lot I think a lot of
politicians in fact i' bet a majority if
you ask them would you rather be super
wealthy or super powerful they they've
moving toward the powerful uh technique
I wouldn't call it market efficiency
because I think governments are
oppositional to markets by definition um
but it certainly fills some kind of
psychological need and I think a lot of
people again since geman times have been
you know the whole big man big man
theory of how governments arose people
do understand that we need security we
need some semblance of order the myth
and or I should say lie is that this has
to or can only happen as a function of a
government or someone imposing this on
the populace which if you think about it
for a few seconds is really demonstrably
false what I'm trying to parse out in
all of this is I find the uh Anarchist
as you define it I want to be very clear
CU you're my only interaction with
anarchism as a way of thinking but as
you define it it is pretty interesting
but then as I try to go okay well wait
are you trying to convince people which
you've made very clear off camera you're
not trying to prze or convince anybody
of anything but I'm trying to figure out
do you think this has real world
applications and people should really
give this a look or I don't use the word
should what word would you use this
whole concept of should I don't know
somebody else's context so if this is
something that people find interesting
or thought-provoking or or just
historically interesting then more power
to them they can read the anarchist
handbook and I do think the more people
who of a certain type who fall into line
with this kind of thinking the better
off we will all be but I don't believe
in this kind of there's that tricky word
better yes I don't believe in blanket
prescriptions for like a big audience
that that I mean a lot of people have
better things to do than think about
anarchism interesting do you feel the
West is going in a bad Direction it's
not going in a unitary Direction I think
there are certain aspects of the West
that are going in a horrifically bad
Direction horrifically quickly but there
are elements in the west where things
are going in a much healthier and better
Direction um so I don't think the West
as a whole moves like some big hulking
Mass uh I think there's Trends and it's
a question of which will win out and my
operating assumption which I think is
impossible to argue with is reality
always wins and that a worldview which
comports to reality which means based on
truth because that's what truth is that
which is real will in the long term
succeed but how long that long term is
is the question on the table and it's
certainly going to be a lot of bad
things to put a modly in the inter room
and and are currently happening so I
believe that the reason the elements of
the West are moving in the wrong
direction is an is one of ideas that yes
I actually don't think that we have free
will but I do think that we respond to
ideas humans okay some human I this you
think all humans are wired the same
mentally no definitely not okay yeah
okay I just don't think that we have
free will so I think we are all wired
and I think that 50% of us is hardwired
50% is malleable but the question is can
we choose in what direction to think
like we could we will probably go down a
very nonuseful rabbit hole right now if
we attack free will but just so I know
do you think humans have free will um I
think that's one of those things where
it's just a semantic discussion because
if people don't have free will it
appears as if they do you know what I
mean 100% it's talking circles perfect
okay so for this conversation I will
operate the way that I operate my daily
life which is I am influenced by ideas
and I believe I can influence other
people but this 50/50 thing doesn't pass
the sniff test with me because that
seems to me like lazy thinking it's re
this is where the science 5050 saying
the science even makes me tense but so I
have not gone in and pulled all the the
citations to to make sure that the
headlines that I'm reading are accurate
uh but I've heard that over and over and
over from people like Brett Weinstein
who I it back because I whenever there's
like oh these two sides are evenly
distributed that usually something
someone didn't do theom I agree and
that's probably true in the grand scheme
so we'll take it as sort of just
directional but this isn't me making up
that oh I feel like but the idea being
that ideas are going to be the thing
that influence the direction we're going
in so what I'm trying to figure out is
is um so with the base assumption I have
that you're a incredibly useful thinker
and that the world would be better off
for encountering your ideas that's the
spirit in which I'm trying to chase the
following thought down okay uh is
anarchism a red herring or because like
when I read your book the white pill
which is extraordinary and should be
required reading for anybody in the west
I've told you off camera how strongly I
feel about that book well you can't tell
an anist thing should be
required even if it's my book but what I
want to know is like that book doesn't
even seem to I don't remember it even oh
it does mention anarchism in the
beginning sure but like you certainly
don't put it forth as like and now we
need to be Anarchist so you don't
correct to fight this you don't have to
be an anarchist to be against the Soviet
Union so now that's put it modly thank
the Lord so the question becomes is
anarchy just a red herring and it's just
like a you thing and you're into it and
it's a fun idea and you play with it on
the weekends or is this like one of the
ideas that we need to put on the table
that we hope people will adopt in some
real where the rubber meets the road way
that will take those elements of the
West that are going very rapidly in the
wrong direction and help reorient them I
really would want to stop using the word
v in this conversation because I never
know who you're referring to and it
sounds like I'm being difficult so um
anarchism isn't a red herring because
anarchism is the norm for human behavior
and I'll give you some examples of
anarchist system which system which no
one thinks of as Anarchist but they take
for granted language is an anarchist
system there's no president of English
you can speak if you want to make a
language Tom and and you know talk it to
yourself it's going to have marginal
utility and marginal adoption there's a
reason reason English or some other
language historically have been a linga
franaqua sometimes it's mandated by the
government but a lot of times it's a
function of this is something
international trade or something like
that uh you can force your employees to
use proper English but slang is perfect
legitimate English language evolves
develops by infinite people making
marginal changes over time and over
space Cuisine is another Anarchist
system physics mathematics music these
are all systems of millions of people
throughout history making marginal
incremental changes moving the needle
and you're free to choose to adopt them
or not and in doing fashion and in doing
so everyone has or not everyone I'm
sorry a enormous amount of people have
benefit fitted and moved culture forward
and moved Humanity forward as a whole so
instead of thinking of anarchism as like
like a third political party it's more
of a system without a centralized State
control and if you think about how
common that is and how much we take that
for granted you'll see it's not a red
herring but is the basis for all that is
decent and good in
humanity okay uh am I trying to apply
Anarchy at the wrong level so I'm trying
to see if it if we would be better off
where who's we uh okay so I think some
people would be worse off because they'd
be hanging from lamposts interesting
tell me more I mean some of these evil
politicians who like in some of these
countries I mean like the reason I did a
book on North Korea as you know the re
one of the reasons North Korea hasn't
liberalized is because they understand
very well that if North Korea became
Freer they'd be coming for the dictators
and his minions and they'd be you know
putting them in the and with good reason
so it would not be better for everyone
if North Korea liberalized even though
be better for a huge percentage of that
population Kim Jong-un would have a big
problem so when I say we I mean humans
and I simply mean the vast majority of
humanity so my norstar when I try to
think through these problems is G gear
towards human flourishing for as many
people as possible because obviously
we're never going to be able to get it
for everybody uh but by way of quick
example so democracy beat out the
communism in the Soviet Union sure to me
that was just a straight line to this is
better yes um and can I want to add to
your point for the mouse traps people
have in their heads better doesn't mean
perfect correct and better doesn't mean
that some things didn't get worse it's a
net better and that's all we can do so I
agree with your point I just want to
make that clear because people have just
their brains just kick in they freak out
yeah no I I try to preempt the comment
sometimes where I'm like ah I know I
never called it a mouse trap but I think
that's exactly correct okay so that's
all I mean when I say we Humanity the
majority as close to everybody as we can
get making things better that this is
humans can flourish can spend time
defining that if it will help the
conversation but I don't know that we
but I don't know that I'm not looking I
don't know that the majority is the goal
because if there's a lot of horrible
people and if you look at books if you
look at TV shows if you look at podcasts
the majority are garbage but you
wouldn't say literature sucks or podcast
suck some podcasts many podcasts change
people's lives and have profoundly
positive consequences so when you're
looking at like the majority I think
that often is a misguided uh um goal I
think it's more like if you reach the
you know Ein Rand in her book The
Fountain Head at the very end spoiler
alert has the hero give a speech and the
opening line is you know I'm going to
paraphrase it thousands of years ago uh
some man figured out to to how to build
fire he was probably burned at the stake
that he taught his brothers to build so
I think a lot of times the majority is
the problem and I don't think that
they're reachable although they're they
would benefit as a consequence but if
you're trying to help them as your goal
it's missing the Mark I don't see a way
to avoid if I want to make my life
better I don't see a way to avoid
dealing with the masses do you no but
you don't have to deal the Ma I'm sure
Quest was never bought by majority of
Americans there's no product that 51% of
Americans consume not even a president
because yeah but now you've changed the
level again so you said majority yeah
yeah yeah but what I'm what I'm trying
to say is at at the level of governments
at States what's the what should be the
operating system there shouldn't be one
yep you don't like the word should well
there shouldn't be an Opera there
shouldn't be government that's an
anarchism means okay right but so the
absence of the state right anarchism
forgive me I will routinely make the
mistake of speaking of anarchism as if
it is rather than a relationship it is a
thing you've been clear it's just trying
to constantly be good about that my
apologies I do understand what you're
saying but again what I'm trying to
figure out is I think the bad ideas have
seeped into the West some elements of
the West are now racing into a horrible
Direction extremely quickly I'm trying
to identify what ideas people should be
you don't like that word I do I'll even
use a ought to be grabbing on in a
moralistic sense I think that some ideas
are more moral than others and so true
even at a minimum if I'm just trying to
figure out for my own life but I'm
nested inside of a system so I'm trying
instead of just talking at my sort of
micro level which is already nested
inside of a capitalistic democracy which
is having some troubles as of late by my
estimation um I'm trying to look to see
is this an idea set this being anarchism
a useful idea set at the level of a lack
of governing body or governing body so
that I can either adopt them myself and
try to spread them wider or be like yeah
this doesn't work where the rubber meets
the road and I've seen a ton of people
ask you these questions and it it will
often get either bogged down or it just
turns into comedy and I can never
[ __ ] like ah what the [ __ ] like am I
supposed to do this is it going to be
useful to lead people to human
flourishing or not that's where I'm
trying to figure out it will be useful
to lead some people and some people AR
you can't lead some people you can only
lead some people you can't lead
everybody so at the very least you're
going to have to pick and choose and
some people are going to be a net cost
as you're an entrepreneur you have to
have some Criterion some filtering
mechanism who's going to be working for
your company Y and some people are going
to be a net enormous net cost and that
that net cost can be uh pernicious and
spread throughout the company I'm sure
you've seen this over and over this is
this is not new to anyone who's even on
a small level involved in in
business I hope you're enjoying this
episode with Michael malice if you're
tired of trying to find the real truth
you have to strive to tell whether the
news that you're getting is actual real
reporting biased narratives trolling
selective reporting whatever the case
may be then you need to be using ground
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Newsom or use the link in the video
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sign up through my link you'll get 40%
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unlimited access to all their features I
really like ground news I think you guys
are going to love it they are doing
important work and I hope you're going
to check them out and stay informed and
get rid of your blind spots this is a
great way to do it with ground
news so there's two types of fil filters
right there's the filter where you keep
out people that you want and there's a
filter where you filter error and
there's a filter error where you let in
people that you don't want so my point
is if you are spreading ideas that are
valid and comport to reality uh and
maybe I should be more you know
proactive but I'm just despite being the
subject of book called ego and hebreus I
do have a sense of humility about what
impact I could possibly have I think at
a certain point you do reach the right
Minds people become activated and then
it's kind of like a spark setting a fire
um but in terms of its utility it's
enormously useful because instead of
wondering you know why are the
Republicans doing this why are the
Democrats doing this you know a it's for
power and you also know be they don't
believe what they're saying even as
they're saying it you're wasting your
breath in trying to engage with people
like I'll give you an example of what I
mean the best argument against gun
control isn't arguing with gun control
Advocates it's gun proliferation the
best argument for censorship is the fact
that it's impossible for me now to
censor a book I've used this example
many times 200 years ago if I didn't
want your book to exist what I got to do
I kill you I burn all the copies it's
it's ceases to exist now and if I told
you this 20 years ago I'd sound like a
lunatic I can take any book I can
duplicate it infinitely I can send it
anywhere on Earth at the speed of light
for free and I could encrypt it with a
magic spell such that only someone who
has the counter spell can read this book
so even if you kill me and you destroy
all the copies of my books that are on
this earth right now you still haven't
censored it cuz there's out there and
they could be infinitely replicated so
that is the answer to censorship instead
of of sitting here and talking past each
other about well is it appropriate for
this book to exist or this book to not
exist so the idea of anarchism in this
context is if the government says this
book is illegal there it is not morally
binding on you at all if Nancy Pelosi or
Donald Trump have an opinion it's only
of Merit in so far as this is an
impediment to work around as opposed to
you know I should really take this
person's opinion seriously after all
they are the speaker of the house that
is anarchism in practice if I'm
understanding you correctly I am sort of
looking at anarchism at the wrong level
that it really is a thing that you do at
the individual relationship level um yes
it's yes so would you think it then a
like if there were people out there just
campaigning hardcore to get nation
states to resend their nation state
goodness and adopt their the country
level organizing Principle as anarchism
would you be indifferent to that would
you be supportive of that would you be
against that I would be uh um
skeptical because if you I've always
said you don't need a majority you need
an alternative Elon Musk just having
Twitter I don't want to call it X sorry
Elon just having if Elon had had Twitter
during covid imagine how different the
conversation would be whether you like
it or not agreed if you have one Outlet
where there is a place for an
alternative view for a long time lefties
were having a complete meltdown because
Roger Al created Fox News right and it's
you had CBS NBC ABC CNN and then Here
Comes Fox and it's like holy crap
someone who takes right of Center views
seriously excuse me doesn't clown
conservatives they must be destroyed now
you know it's Off to the Races in terms
of of perspectives and channels point
being Fox never uh had the market of all
those others combined it was just one
alternative but just having that one
alternative is enormously powerful for
better for worse in terms of moving the
dynamic of the conversation so that is
kind of I think the key as long as you
have one in terms of the country though
that that's dangerous because if you
have this worldwide Global he hemony
where every part of the Earth has to be
under even Antarctica has to be under
the thumb of a country and and a
government and you have this one little
area that is like we're going to be
Sovereign and not recognized nation
states well if they make it work these
dominoes are going to start collapsing
and that very quickly means that
governments are going to start trying to
do what they can to invade that little
area anarchism isn't utopian at a
certain point even if you have the right
views an EV government evil government
can come in and Slaughter you all I mean
look at how many governments throughout
history have murdered religious people
for their views
peaceful religious people just killed so
it's a good bullwark against governments
as if you have a population that's
heavily armed and ready to prepare their
country that's going to be very tough to
take over as we as Afghanistan
demonstrated but at a certain point
again evil can win in the short term and
if they allowed this one Anarchist area
to exist The Jig would be up worldwide
so I would caution that place or that
population to like think this through
because right now and people don't
realize this because one of the
arguments against anarchism is well if
there's no Army then anyone can invade
there are many countries on Earth right
now with no military zero but they're
not invaded because they're there under
kind of the wing of other powerful
nation states who are forcing a
international hegemonic order but if you
have a country that's a threat to that
very quickly the dynamic changes because
now you're threatening the narrative and
the lie that has been spread throughout
the world and for the last 100 years
what is the lie that's government
Authority is legitimate and every part
of the Earth has to be under the thumb
of one government or another okay uh so
right now we are living through a very
fascinating moment where we are turning
back into a uni a multi-polar world from
many people listening to this will have
grown up in the whatever how many years
you want to clock it depending on if you
started at the fall of the Berlin wall
or the crumbling of the USSR but it's
roughly since the early 90s and it's
been Us hemony in the world um we're now
going back to where there are multiple
Powers certainly us China well I don't
think us it wasn't us hemony I don't
think most these nations had American
values agreed but you don't think that
us was the dominant Global superpower
with the reserve currency that when they
said do this people did that not
everybody I I always thought it had gery
as a monopoly as a function correct
right so I don't think the US had
Monopoly power over the world after the
fall of the Soviet Union certainly China
North Korea many African nations South
American countries they didn't have the
political influence you're just now
seeing China over the last call it 10 or
15 years really begins but I meant China
had influence over China right like
that's what I mean so a lot of these
countries although we were powerful
worldwide but like just by one way of
example the only reason China didn't
invade Taiwan is because us had
and so that's what I'm talking about
when I say hegemonic power and now China
is making noises like yeah we might oh
yeah because they're saying us is
getting weak we're getting powerful we
no longer have to listen to you and it's
a multi-polar yes I think that's
transition is correct yeah okay so the
reason I bring it up again I'm just
still trying to navigate where the edges
are I think I'm beginning to actually
understand this reasonably well I'm
going to try to present your thinking
back to you in a way that you will
recognize if any of of this breaks then
I'm still lost but let me try there's
something you just said that you've said
multiple times but it didn't sink in uh
until now that you just need an
alternative yes so I think I was trying
to apply anarchism at a level that you
would you said that you would caution
people again slow down really look at
because if you do it and you prove that
this works that it's going to cause
these bigger powers to attack you that
feels very sort of real politique and
can I give an example that's obvious
like when you have um uh um all like how
many of like drug legalization campaigns
were fought by like alcohol companies
right because if really you didn't know
this no yeah this is or or I remember
who it was point being if you have
people drinking less this is going to be
a threat to them so it's like behind the
scenes they're like we got to make sure
this gets dipped in the bud that's it
makes sensear but it makes sense horing
at the same time yeah oh yeah right so
in this context if you have an
alternative to the nation state wait a
minute this is going to be a big problem
for we got to make sure it gets nipped
in the butt okay don't apply it at the
state level God I worry that that word
won't feel right to you but um at that
highest level that organizes a
geographical reason region whatever we
want to call that I'll call it a state
or a
government we're good with that part
sure okay I it's it's it's not a
location it's a relationship no I
understand I'm I'm saying because I'm
was trying to apply it there it never
landed for you that that that I was
saying the right thing in terms of your
worldview right uh so don't apply it at
that level because it's a relationship
it's not a location uh that all the
incredible things that have come to pass
music fashion technology all of that
which very much are Anarchist people
come in they participate as they see fit
well I wouldn't say technology because
there was a lot of government
involvement there but okay my bad set
that aside uh so there are these groups
of things music and fashion being two
that named that are and Mathematics uh
that over time people have contributed
to nobody got to tell them how to
contribute they just came in they did
their thing and it either worked and
people thusly adopted it or it didn't
work and people ignored it right uh and
so there was no one group saying yes or
no that would be I just shout out to
Eric Weinstein who's going to have a
seizure right now because he thinks that
physics has been co-opted but that's a
whole another conversation uh so I get
what you're saying there so now this
becomes anarchism I believe you're
saying becomes a thing that you do at
that level that kind of level in your
interaction with other people voluntary
interactions whether it's creating a
podcast building your own company
whatever but it's going to exist inside
of another structure that you believe is
um invalid yes okay everything just has
corrected my to my perspective anarchism
is that alternative so for instance I
know one thing we haven't talked about
it yet but one thing that really drove a
lot of my wanting to question is that
you don't vote you don't believe people
can vote their way out of the problems
that we Face correct and I think
although this part I'm not sure about
you would tell people you're wasting
your time voting and there's no point
nope I don't believe in should I don't
tell people what to do I didn't say
should I said you're wasting your time
well that means you shouldn't vote you
didn't see the word should you implied
it right so there's a lot of people who
if they vote it perfectly I don't have a
problem people wasting their time yep I
have and if and I don't problem people
delusional if you want to be delusional
knock yourself out there are a lot of
people where for them voting is like if
you're an African-American and like your
grandfather couldn't vote and now you
want to go to the polls and it's going
to mean something to you more power to
you but is that just an emotional
satisfaction to in and of itself if
that's what it does for you great if I
want to eat a candy bar that's fine but
there's this view which is thankfully
very strongly decreasing in America at
least that we can't vote our way out of
this and this idea which was promulgated
among conservatives s did you say that
people are believing that l yes they're
believing it less that they
can't okay they're more losing faith in
voting correct correctly because for a
long time especially on amongst
conservatives it was because Democrats
had um Congress for 40 years from 52 to
94 54 to 94 rather um there was this
view okay we just got to vote in the
right people and this is going to get
fixed or better and they vote in the
so-called right people it's like well
they're really rhinos and they keep
voting in the Republicans and it keep
being somehow being rhinos at a certain
point you realize that Republican party
that you are so loyal to has never and
will never shrink the size of the
government well it's the democrat's
fault okay there's no Universe even the
one where they be Thanos where the
Democratic party ceases to exist so
you're dealing you call anarchism is
called utopian there's this is a fantasy
land that it's going to be hegemonic
100% Republicans and they're going to
shrink down the government to the size
of what the Constitution was
so that I think is a very healthy thing
this understanding that voting your way
out of this you can't vote yourself free
and you can't spend Yourself Rich um I
think that is a big uh component I think
people are starting to get that I'm not
saying don't vote though because because
again I'm not a contan people have this
idea and I'm not saying you're sharing
it at all which drives me crazy that if
they're like well what if everyone
thought like you so if everyone agreed
with you wouldn't vote then you'd be
completely destroyed if everyone thought
like me we wouldn't any murders we would
have any child abuse no robberies no
theft very few rapes so that's not a
concern it's good that's nice Uh I that
is very interesting you don't want to
what lie Fair thank you I appreciate
that uh okay so going back to this idea
that there are certain ideas that are
better off for human flourishing and
there are ideas that are worse off why
not tell people hey if you're going to
vote if you're going to vote vote for
XYZ I don't know what their everyone
individual's values are I don't know
what voting is helping them accomplish
and I I you can't vote this would make
sense how if you're like okay Michael I
need a dentist now this dentist might be
more expensive but it's he's a better at
it but you only have like a minor you
know plaque this guy is cheaper but he's
you know it's not as good these are two
things to solve for right and you could
see the as the pluses and minuses of
each one your vote's immaterial like I
can pick my dentist I can't pick my
politician it my vote is of no
statistical significance it's just a
ritual and if people want to engage in
rituals more power to them but this
belief that if I vote for this guy I get
this guy in no other context do we take
this as acceptable the idea I go in the
supermarket I'm like all right I want to
buy this Cola let's have a poll it's
bizarre it makes as much sense that my
neighbors should have a determination of
how much money money is stolen by the
government as they should have
determination over what music I listen
to what clothing I wear uh what books I
read it it or or some Aristocrat like if
I don't care what Camila Parker BS has
to say about my money why should I care
about someone just because they're
geographically approximate to me okay so
would you like it if everybody were
voting for all the cabinet positions
you're running this because you actually
know something about it you're running
that because you know something about it
would that give you the level of
granularity where you'd be like yeah
that makes sense to vote for and let's
get individual fums by these different
people no because you can't pick you're
an entrepreneur you can't preemptively
pick winners you can't just sit down and
be like just I don't know I I if I had
to bet money on if I was doing a protein
bar company I would put my money in your
uh um if I had like slots like I'd pick
my money on you but that doesn't imply
at all that there's someone out there
right now who's going to completely
outsell you and and run the table
against you and I'm sure that's going to
happen at some point that's just that's
just how the market works the problem
with picking winners preemptively is we
all have very very finite knowledge and
especially something politics everyone
has their lives to live you got to have
someone who's going to speak for you on
abortion and environmentalism and
Taxation and War it's like having your
lawyer be your dentist and also be your
account I don't I don't if what just
proposed does not land for you I don't
understand what you mean when you say
that so you're what I hear you saying is
you don't want one person in charge of
all these disperate things they
effectively know nothing about I I know
what I'm saying is I'm not in a position
and no one is to preemptively be like
just because this person knows a certain
amount of about protein bars that he
should be in charge of this entire
industry or that he was going to govern
it toward the human flourishing as
opposed to self being self-serving or
looking out for his buddies or be
extremely conservative and and fight
Innovation because it's worked a certain
way in the past therefore it's going to
work their way in the future yeah it
feels like either I'm not understanding
your position as well as I thought it
was or you're being inconsistent so uh
you agreed that at the what I call the
state level hopefully we have a working
understand do you mean like literally
like like the government or you mean
like Texas yeah the at the government
level okay so a nation state so that
anarchism is going to live within that
yes so now that we know this is not
Utopia and anarchism as a mindset as an
idea set that people can't adopt that
will either move them towards human
flourishing or move them away uh the
reality is that we vote people into
those positions so now when I go to a
which I will say I use the word ought
when I mean a moral obligation that
there there is a more or less moral path
so for instance I think people have a
moral obligation to vote for freedom of
speech speech and I think I read
somewhere that you hate the word fre or
the phrase freedom of speech you can
certainly debate that uh I also think
that people have a moral obligation but
freedom of speech isn't on the ballot
right if there was a referendum I could
wrap my head around what you're saying
cool then that's all I'm trying to get
to I'm just trying to get to where you
uh are operating within a system and you
think that that system has outcomes that
can be better or worse and therefore
people my language ought to do something
about it but doing something isn't
voting don't you get it like the if I
want to fight for freedom of speech the
best thing I can do is Elon buying
Twitter as opposed to me voting for a
Republican or Democrat do something
about it create a uh um system that is
uh impermeable to attack from nefarious
actors of which the government will
always be the primary one you know how
like apple made it so there's a pass
that they can't even get into your
iPhone even if the government asks for
it that's what I'm talking about okay is
this all predicated on your belief that
the government is corrupt and no matter
what you vote for you're going to get
what you get regardless of what the
populace tells the government they want
the populace is not capable of wanting
anything or telling anything uh there
people say things you studied enough
evolutionary psychology to understand
that people say a certain things and
what they say is of no relevance what
matters is revealed values everyone will
tell you they're a great mother everyone
will tell you that they love their
spouse I'm a terrible mother Mar are you
I'm terrible well shut your mouth um
people will will tell you with a
straight face that their F monogamy even
as they're cheating with their spouse
the ability of human beings to
compartmentalize and have cognitive
dissonance without missing a beat is
infinite and and this is well known
within uh evolutionary psychology
circles so people will most people do
not have IND independent thoughts so
they will this there's a reason why um
cultural values are not homogeneous
across nations in San Francisco there's
going to be enormous social pressure to
have left of center values and to bend
the knee to those around you in if
you're in tran you're going to be far
more amable toward having radical Muslim
views or or Muslim views as a whole so
people's views the masses are not a
function of this kind of Enlightenment
nonsense where I sat down and I read all
the great books and I've come to my
conclusion independently that is not at
all how people reach their views people
want to pass and as HL Menin one of my
great Heroes said the average man does
not want to be free he simply wants to
be safe and we saw that
resoundingly uh during covid you know
conservatives have this thing they've
been saying at least since Nixon that
there's this silent majority of these
like hardcore minus and they hate the
government and they just if that were
true people would be campaigning on
minarchism and no one is there it's a
complete fallacy uh that people want
this kind of sense of enormous
responsibility over their own lives okay
uh do you only have interest in speaking
to individuals or do you think it is
useful in moving people towards human
flourishing to speak to people on mass I
only speak to individuals okay but but
the individuals have audiences yep so I
like if I'm at a party like let's let's
let's give it counter example
and people want to start having a
political discussion I'm not interested
I will gladly have this conversation and
there's an audience so I am speaking to
people on mass but again that's just an
example of how a hierarchy is inevitable
you're not literally capable of talking
to a group they you're only capable
talking to a group either you're giving
a speech maybe there's some questions
but even when there's questions when the
audience you're still speaking that
individual people cannot speak as groups
because you can't hear
them uh people can't speak as groups
uh people can't speak as groups I
disagree with that but I think that's
probably in a literal sense you can't
because you they'll be yelling it's a
it's a sure but you cast a vote you can
get a sense you can get a sense through
see there you go if I'm if I'm casting a
vote I'm not speaking I'm delegating
someone to speak for me that's my point
that's your point say that in another
way meaning if you're asking are you
speaking for individuals or masses if
I'm speaking to a senator I am speaking
for an individual and ostensibly he has
the masses behind him but that's not
even true because even in that even the
senator has 60% of the vote there's 40
people per of people who didn't vote for
him and some of that 40 are going to
like what he's doing at that moment and
some of that 60 are going to hate what
he's doing at that moment so you can
only speak to individuals I'm not
speaking to like the audience hears what
we're saying y but they're not speaking
to us in any literal sense even in the
comments it's still going to be
individuals saying things which some are
very useful some are not yeah I think
I'm playing with a slightly different
idea so when two two well-intentioned
intelligent people think the other
person is crazy they have different base
assumptions so life has taught me so I'm
trying to figure out you and I believe
something different about people or the
world and I haven't yet figured out what
it is my most recent guess was that you
think you can sway the individual but
that so many people that make up the
collective are incapable and uned and
I've heard you say they don't have souls
and say that you're not kidding so even
just pushing it all the way to some
people just don't have the cognitive
horsepower I think you would agree with
sure uh
to be a useful speaker on behalf of the
masses they're never going to get the
message nor are they going to be able to
broadcast to elected officials what they
want them to do right that doesn't make
them bad people either I want to make
that clear because the mouse traps are
going off people yes that's I think very
smart to say that I just want to make
that really really clear if I am
contributing value put food in the table
for my kids I'm a a good dad who's there
that is a heroically moral person right
this lie which drives me crazy which is
promulgated through our corporate media
and through our government schooling
system that everyone has to have an
opinion on everything is completely
fallacious and
deranged feels like you're opening a new
Ken of worms do you feel I've said
something no but I mean this is
something that's just you haven't said
that at all but it's something that is
so pervasive in our culture that when I
go on shows and there some issue of the
moment and the issues are kind of like
one year it's going to Min skirts it's
like fashion right you got to care about
this transgender bathrooms what's your
opinion we didn't care about it five
minutes ago we're not care about five
minutes from now but you this is the
most important thing happening in
America right now and if you as someone
in our position who's just runs their
mouth for living to some extent it's
like you know what I haven't thought
about there nuanced you have to have
position to the point where they'll tell
you you're lying if you or you don't
want to say because you're going to
alienate XY and Z it's it's Bonkers it's
interesting I take a very different
approach to that which is um I will
think out loud about any topic okay and
so I'll just I'll tell people look I
don't know about this so there'