Kind: captions
Language: en
When you say to someone, "Okay, I'm I'm
signing up for you." Like, I'm there's 8
billion options and I'm picking you,
that's big.
>> Do you think there is still wisdom in
getting married? We're talking about a
technology that fails catastrophically
56% of the time. Staying together for
the kids even though you hate each other
or staying together because you don't
want to give away half your things is
also a failure. So, what's that? Another
10%.
>> Okay. Now, we have a technology that 76%
of the time fails. Marriage is a legal
status. It's a contract between you and
the government essentially. Like you and
Lisa have a prenup.
>> No,
>> no, no, you do. You do. It was written
by the government. It's written by the
government and they can change it
without your permission. The truth is
all marriages end. And when they end,
>> you've called love an economy.
>> Yeah.
>> In the way that people are exchanging
value.
>> Yeah. And I'm curious, what is it
exactly that people are trading whether
they realize it or not?
>> It's very funny because people find the
term economy, describing love as an
economy or relationship economy like a
little profane. And I love it.
>> Yeah. I don't I don't mean it in a
negative way. I mean it in like a really
honorable way that it's about a sharing
of value, like a trading of value. And
we're very much now in the zeitgeist of
talking about equality,
you know, and that like women are
capable of working, men are capable of
working, men should be caregiving with
children, women should be caregiving
with children. No one should be doing
100% of the labor in any sphere of
relationship. I understand that argument
and I think it's because there was an
imbalance for so long, you know, where
it was like women are exp. This is what
you do women. You are at home with
babies and that's your job. men, you get
out there and, you know, put the women
and children in bed and go out looking
for dinner. Like, this is your job, you
know. And there was no option other than
that. And now we kind of did what we do,
which is, you know, we treat dandruff
with decapitation. Like we went so far
in the other direction that now we said,
"No, everyone has to do everything. And
how dare anyone suggest that, you know,
you do my laundry or how dare you
suggest that the man has to do this?"
And so for me, an economy, you know, how
many apples is worth how many apples is
not an interesting question. One, that's
the answer. One apple's worth one apple.
>> How many apples is worth how many
coconuts? Now we're having an
interesting conversation because this
comes down to what value do you put on
apples and what value do you put on
coconuts? Like we have to figure out how
many of these is how many of these in
relationship.
I've seen a lot of unsuccessful
relationships in my line of work and a
lot of them there's this tally being
kept like unspoken or spoken
[clears throat] of look at what I'm
doing for you you know and look at how
hard I have it and look at how diff and
what's interesting to me is we're also
now as a society particularly on social
media where like girls versus boys
content is huge like if we want to go
viral like let's just say some real
misogynist stuff or some real misan
dangerous stuff and we're just going to
we'll get millions of views on that one
because in this war of girls versus
boys, everybody loves being like my
team's winning, you know, but we all
know that like a world in which, you
know, men are flailing is not a world
where women are thriving and vice versa.
So, I like to to really look at in
relationship
we're agreeing to be together and to
both bring value to this, right? If
there was no value, we just wouldn't we
wouldn't connect. We would just keep
moving. So, when you say to someone,
okay, I'm I'm signing up for you. Like,
I'm there's 8 billion options and I'm
picking you. That's big. Like, that's a
big big commitment. I can't really think
of any commitment in life that's bigger
than that other than maybe having kids,
right? It's comparable.
But really, what you're saying is you
you give me something like you give me
something and and I give you something.
And ideally, I it doesn't feel like much
of a sacrifice to give. If anything, I
take pleasure in the giving and you take
pleasure in the giving. But we've made
this idea that, you know, we have to
give the same things. And if you look at
the greatest partnerships in the world,
like look at Steve Jobs, Steve Waznak,
like without Steve Jobs, you know, Steve
Waznak's just an engineer, you know, and
without Steve Waznak, you know, Steve
Jobs just has a lot of interesting
ideas, but he doesn't know how to code.
He doesn't not an engineer.
>> Together, they changed the world. And so
what they both did is that which one's
more important? I I don't think you can
say like and and why would you want to
know like they're they're both together.
They made the music. Like they made the
thing perfectly. The chemistry of the
two of them made the thing and changed
the world. See also Keith Richards and
MC Jagger. See which one's more
important? I I don't know that you could
say like because together they So that's
what I mean when I say it's an economy
is that you know we're bringing to the
table different things. maybe some of
the same things, but the question is
not, you know, how hard would it be to
replace what you do? Like, well, how
many women would sleep with me and be
nice to me? Well, how many men would pay
all my bills? You know, we could do that
math probably. Like, if you're young and
gorgeous, there's probably a lot of men
that pay your bills. If you're rich and
successful, there's probably a lot of
women that would sleep with you because
they want. But the question really
becomes like, okay, long-term,
short-term, any
if both people in this equation,
neither one feels shortchanged, neither
one feels like they're being taken
advantage of, kind of whose business is
it, right? Like the economy of a
relationship is not like counting the
totals all the time and creating an
Excel worksheet of what do we owe each
other? It's more is this working? Do we
both feel like we're giving and
receiving value? Do either of us feel
deeply taken advantage of? And I think
that that is an economy and and that's
what it we need to look at.
>> So very much agree. The thing that I
find interesting about the economy,
never thought I would think about it,
never thought I'd be drawn into it and
now the vast majority of my content
revolves around like traditional
economies.
>> What I find so powerful about it is that
it is cause and effect at its core. So
it is how humans work and you can just
see the nature of humans manifest in how
economies work, how to incentivize
people,
>> what they'll say yes to, what they'll
say no to, how they price themselves,
how they price the things they want, all
of that stuff.
>> So in a relationship, I think it's
equally as it's not a metaphor. It's
literally just okay, this there are
things that you make me feel I presume
is a big part of what you mean by this.
>> So how do we ground it? So, if somebody
right now is getting into a
relationship, maybe they've had failures
in the past or maybe they're brand new,
but either way, they need a way to
ground around what this exchange is. So,
if we were going to strip away the
metaphor, like is it like when my wife
and I founded a company together, we
expressly stated,
>> uh, these are my roles, these are your
roles, this is how we will handle
conflict. There's only two of us, so
it's one v one in terms of a vote. We
can hit a stalemate. How do we deal with
stalemates? We talk through all of it
with very concrete this is what happens
when we collide.
>> How should couples in your experience
>> encounter that moment of agreeing like
>> beyond the love of this all what is the
exchange in a relationship? uh the great
presupposition in there or the unspoken
piece that I think you have to start
with is
we don't even get close to that analysis
in modern society for most couples
>> because wing it emotionally or
>> it would be unour if you if you're a
friend of mine and you've been in a
relationship for a period of time and
you say we're getting married if I said
really why
that would be an incredibly rude rude
question. Why? Why is that a rude
question? Like, we're talking about a
technology that fails catastrophically
56% of the time. Meaning, it it results
in divorce. That's a catastrophic
failure. I'm going to say staying
together for the kids even though you
hate each other. Or staying together
because you don't want to give away half
your things is also a failure. So,
what's that? Another 10%.
>> I'm being nice. 20%
>> probably. Now, we have a technology
>> that 76% of the time fails. Okay. To me,
asking why is a really good question,
right? Because there are good answers,
by the way. There are good answers. My
religion, uh, my religion dictates it.
Um, my parents, it would really
disappoint my parents if I didn't.
There's tax benefits to getting married.
Um, there there's there's lots of
answers, but we don't even start by
asking the question. It's just assumed
this is a thing we're going to do.
>> And largely, it's because it's what we
do. like it's a it's a tradition and you
know I've said before that tradition is
in one way the wisdom of the people that
came before us and the things that
they've experienced and what we can
learn from it and in another way
tradition is peer pressure exerted by
dead people and and we're just
succumbing to it like oh well my you
know grandparents got married my parents
got married my great-grandparents got
married my great okay your great
great-grandmother used a buggy whip do
you use a buggy whip like your great
great-grandmother did not have the sum
total
of all human wisdom accessible to her in
an instant through the sky, godlike
knowledge in her hands. Why would you
think a technology that made sense for
her is automatically unquestionably
going to work for you, especially when
it has a 56 to 76% failure rate. So
that's a form of of kind of intentional
willful blindness or an ostrich approach
to a real problem, right? So I I think
starting with the question of
you and Lisa when you said okay we're
going to start a business and we sat
down and we said okay we're doing it
this way and it's one of one and these
are our roles. Okay. You're already
starting by saying what are we doing?
>> Like what's the target? What's the
target? What are we trying to do? Like I
think what's the target before you start
shooting is a really good question to
ask. You know because a a a a pro a pro
is someone who hits a target nobody else
can hit. A genius is someone who hits a
target nobody else can see, you know.
And I think fundamentally when people
get married who have the kind of mindset
that you and Lisa have and you you know
how you do anything is how you do
everything. And I think you approach a
lot of problem solving by saying okay
first where are we trying to go? You
know and it doesn't even have to be
precise. It can just be okay what do we
want to feel? You know what's the vibe
we want to create here? Like it doesn't
have to be like scientific. It can be
right. Like I know there's a lot of
people that are super analytical,
suited, super data driven. I'm sitting
across from one of them, I think. But
also, I think there's some gut stuff
that it's like, yeah, we want to be
happy. We want to be connected. We'll
get back to the show in just a second.
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to the show. Just like in business, I
think in in marriage or in a
relationship,
it's this dance between simplicity and
complexity. Like business is complex.
You know, there's so many variables,
economic forces, things beyond your
control, personnel issues. There's so
you could drill down forever. You could
try to read every book that's ever been
written on a business, but you'd fail.
And yet, there's also like a tremendous
amount of simplicity.
>> Identify a need, find a way to meet it,
identify a market, find a way to, you
know, get ahead of it. You know, simple,
simple, simple stuff. Love is the same
thing. What is marriage other than
fundamentally
you're my favorite person?
You're my favorite person of all the
people in the world, you're my favorite
person. Which, by the way, what four
words are more beautiful than that?
Honestly, like to say truthfully to
another person and to have another
person truthfully say to you, "You're my
favorite person." Like, saying it gets
me welled up. It's like, it's such a
lovely thought to to feel that way
sincerely about someone and have someone
feel that way about you. I can't think
of anything warmer and more wonderful
than that. And that's how all of this
kind of starts, right? It's simple, but
then there's a million pounds of
complexity in it and on top of it and
things that are antagonistic to it. And
so if you don't start from a place of
let's identify where it is we're trying
to go, let's start with like the simple
piece of this fundamentally. I want to
be your only person. and you want to be
my only person. Okay. I want to be good
at this. Like, do you want to be good at
this? Okay, good. We both want to be
good at this. How are we going to make
sure we're getting it right? Because the
two biggest mistakes I think people
make, and they're they're somewhat
antagonistic to each other, is
they think that if we get married,
things will change, right? So, you know,
he he parties a lot now, but like if we
get married, he'll stop. you know, you
know, she's like a little immature right
now, but like if we get married, she'll
she'll mature up, you know, and you
know, he drinks a lot now, but if we get
married, he'll grow up a bit. And you
know, say see also when people have
children, they're like, "Oh, you know,
when we have kids, he'll mature." So
thinking that a person will change
because you married is a bad bet. But
similarly, thinking that this person
won't change
>> is also a bad bet because if you're
going to be on a law, you've been
married 24 years, right? 23 together 25.
>> Okay. So, you've changed both of you
tremendously physically, mentally,
emotionally, your points of view, like
it's it changes constantly
and yet you still want to be able to say
like you're my favorite person. I'm your
favorite person and really feel that
connection. So, I think that you have to
have built into this
some technique for and and that's really
what my writing and my speaking is
largely about. It's about let's be
practical about this. Like it's a job
and you want to be good at this job.
Like the job of loving each other, you
know, and I'm not saying it's like, oh,
it's a job. It's a drudgery. No, I mean
like it's a passion. It's a vocation.
It's a you signed on for this. You don't
have to get married. Like you don't have
to get married. We live in a society now
a lot of things that used to require the
team like to work the farm. We needed,
you know, like if you ever I don't know
if you're watching any of those YouTube
channels where it's like baking a pie in
1800.
>> No.
That's my nightmare.
>> Let me tell you something. Like really
do one of these. Do a dive one day on
this and watch like the here's how we
make a full dinner and it's like a whole
day
>> to make a pie.
>> You ever watched alone?
>> Yes.
>> Similar idea.
>> Similar Jesus.
>> Right. And like you know I live in
Manhattan. Like you want a pie? I could
get us six different pies from six
different places delivered within a half
an hour but without getting off my
couch. It's amazing. So we we're no
longer in a position where it's like,
well, I got to work the fields and we
got to have the kids so the kids will
help work the fields and you'll darn the
socks and like the basics of our
day-to-day life are pretty easy to meet
these days. So we don't need marriage in
that way. Now it's like meeting an
emotional need. It's meeting a different
So I think it's a different thing. And
because of that, we we have to have some
check-ins, like some techniques built
into it about, hey, how am I doing at
this job that I didn't have to sign on
for, but I've decided to sign on for and
I want to be good at. Like you and Lisa
started a story 25 years ago.
I've never read a story that I didn't
lose the plot at some point. So, how do
you know when you've lost the plot? Like
how do you know if you don't take a
minute here and there and build that
into the relationship that we're gonna
like have some checks and balances? Like
you just talked about starting a
business together and you're already
talking about okay if there's an impass
how do we deal with it because only two
of us and we each get a vote. You're
already controlling for the inevitable.
We're going to disagree sometime. That's
okay. That's natural. We know that. So
what do we do? Let's now while there's
an abundance of optimism and goodwill.
Let's have a conversation about when we
disagree, what's that going to look
like? And [snorts] what does that really
take, by the way, from a technique
standpoint?
10 minutes a week of like, hey, what
what did I do this week that made you
feel loved? What did I do this week that
I could have done better at loving you?
Because love is, you know, love is a
feeling, but love's a verb, too. Like
love is a thing you do. So, what did I
do? Like, what did I do well this week?
You know, and what does that cost? Costs
nothing. And
>> why do people do it more then?
>> Because I think we've been sold a false
bill of goods. We've been told that
you're just supposed to be good at this.
Like how much time did you spend in
school learning how to multiply
fractions? I learned a bunch of that.
Okay. How much time did you learn like
how to resolve conflict with someone you
love? Like it is impossible to win an
argument with your spouse. It's
impossible.
>> What do you mean?
>> If if you lose, you lost. And if you
win, you lost. Your spouse feels small.
They feel like, you know, they lost.
Like, you really good question at one
point. I probably won't be able to
remember it verbatim, but it was
something like,
>> um, why doesn't
feeling connected feel as good as
winning an argument? And I thought, oo,
>> you can be right or you can be happy.
Said that before.
>> It's really, that idea is really
interesting on two levels. one, from an
evolutionary standpoint, why doesn't it
feel as good? If there's a survival
>> advantage to pair bonding, then why
doesn't being connected to that person
in the moment where you're arguing feel
like a way more interesting goal than
I'm going to prove that I'm right?
>> Yeah.
>> I think we've created an environment
where,
and particularly in recent years, I
think this has gone metastatic. I think
that we've created a world where and a
culture where there is so much
antagonism between the sexes.
>> What do you credit that to?
>> I mean, I know it's easy to say social
media. I think social media has
amplified it. I [snorts] think we want
to be right. We want someone to
understand our pain from our
perspective.
>> True. So, what
>> Yeah. I mean, I don't know that I I feel
like we we you know what is the the
saying when you apply technology to an
efficient system, you magnify the
efficiency. And when you apply it to an
inefficient system, you magnify the
inefficiency. [snorts] I think social
media
>> magnified
>> a tension between the sexes that has
been growing for many years, was present
for many years and we're where largely I
think people don't the tension is I
think people don't know what's expected
of them anymore.
>> It's interesting this so here's my
pitch. You tell me if you think this is
crazy. So this goes back to what you
were saying at the beginning. This is an
exchange of value. I think that value
used to be very clear because there were
the world was dangerous and my promise
to you is I'm going to keep you safe and
provide resources and so women would
pick the guy that was going to actually
be successful at that.
>> Uh and now the world has been safe since
World War II here in the West anyway.
And so people have begun to think that
safety is just a law of nature. And so
it is what it is. And so women are
stepping into the workforce, girl boss,
I don't need no man, like that whole
attitude. So men now are very confused.
All of their impulses to be ambitious,
to be strong, to go after that. They're
not celebrated. They're not rewarded. Uh
women can control fertility. So you can
have sex without getting pregnant. You
can keep yourself safe. You can monetize
your own money. Uh in many ways, women
have an easier time staying focused and
staying on task. And so the modern world
rewards that. Uh, and so all of a sudden
the incentives that we were
evolutionarily primed for, they're no
longer present. That has completely
broken down. And so there really is a
sense of
>> why exactly do I need to be in a
relationship? Guys can get at guys could
in a single day see more nude women
>> than they would have seen in a lifetime
200 years ago.
>> 100%. Yeah.
>> So you've got all of these crazy ass
distortions that go on with the thing
that would normally incentivize a male
to have sex. uh that would normally
incentivize a woman, access to
resources, safety, those things are
blown apart. And so now all of the
compromises that you have to make in a
relationship are like, why am I doing
this exactly?
>> And then
>> you put that together with social media,
being able to compare, being able to
swipe and just find the next person,
just super easy, and you're now playing
in a global market instead of just,
well, there's only six guys here. I got
to the whole village. So, um, that feels
like the deranging element to me is
effectively,
um, were overly safe. Things are overly
easy.
>> I totally agree. I don't think anything
you've I can't argue with anything
you've said there, but
I I do think that like most things, it's
it's a function of overcorrection.
Like I think the old way the structure
that was built on an evolutionary
reality. The world was a hostile
antagonistic place in a very real way.
Like there was a time like I'm not
talking about World War II era. Like it
wasn't like they were like, you know,
you walk out the streets and people were
just attacking and raping each other.
Like I'm talking about like primal
society. Like yes, you're right. Brute
force, violence, all those things. Like
it's a it was a different kind of a
world. Now I'm not saying we don't still
have those same drives. I'm not saying
that there aren't still those same
dangers in some way, but you know,
civilization and its discontents like we
we have figured out like, okay, we're
going to create laws and we're going to
create structures and societies and
civilizations that are going to result
in our suppression of certain drives
that we have for the purpose of the
greater good in civilization. So, I I I
get that.
I think that created
certain boxes that fit a lot of people.
Like a lot of men like to be the
provider and protector and it's a good
fit and a lot of women liked to be
provided for and protected and they
liked to nurture and and there's
something biological to it and there's
something social and personal to it. But
it became a prison. I really think it
became a prison. It became a prison
where that is all you're allowed to do.
Like my mother was, you know, a a
product of her generation. She was the
smartest math student in her public
school in Brooklyn. And they said,
"That's so great. You can be a nurse or
you can be a teacher."
>> Yeah.
>> And she said, "Well, why, you know, I
could be a doctor. Like, I I have the
absolute best math and science scores."
And they went, "Right, sure. That's
cute. You can be a nurse or you can be a
teacher. Those are your two options. And
then you'll be a wife and you'll be a
mother. Like, because that's what you
have. Those are your options. That's it.
You know, and and I'm of a generation,
I'm a bit older than you. I'm of a
generation that like you got to be Clint
Eastwood or Richard Simmons. Those were
your two choices. Like those were your
two choices. Like growing up, you were
either the stoic like hard guy who or
you were gay. You were like a feat. You
were And it really the the truth is
human emotional complexity like that's
not how it works. Like we all have, you
know, proclivities. We all have
different drives in us. But, you know,
there's a lot of men that are deeply
emotional and sensitive and poetic and
have like a lot of feminine, if you want
to call it that, traits. And there's a
lot of women that have tremendous
masculine energy, if you want to call it
that, or aggressive and good per. So,
the idea that like, but again, what did
we then do? We then said, okay, so
anything that says it's good that men
are strong willed and capable and
doineering and dominant and aggressive
is bad. And anything that says that
women are submissive and nurturing is
bad because you're trying to push people
in these boxes when in fact all we're
doing is like observing reality.
>> But we're making it a prison. We're
making it way too tight by saying it has
to be. So it was it has to be prison or
it has to be no prison. It has to be
this post-modern existential everything
is class struggle. Everything is right.
And so, you know, again, we we love this
as a culture, this overcorrection. We've
done it for a long time. But then add
the amplifier of social media. Add what
you just said, which is I will now not
only do I get to see more women in a day
than any man before me in my lineage saw
in a year or in their lifetime.
Women get to talk to
more women than they've ever talked to
in their whole lives. If you're
scrolling your Instagram feed, you're
listening to men and to women. And by
the way, the algorithm makes it even
more fun because now we know what's
going to infuriate you. And we know
what's going to like, you know, get you
like excited and and and behind it. So,
we're just start to feed that to people
again because we want your attention.
And it's an attention economy. It's
enragement engagement. Like, I get it.
But it's created this world where none
of it's really about nurturing something
in any of us. None of it's really about
the broader societal thread. Like what
is our common dream anymore? Like the
the thought that it's become
controversial to say I love America.
I I'm an American. I love America. By
the way, saying you love America but
seeming to hate Americans doesn't make a
lot of sense to me either because all
America is just a bunch of Americans
like e pluribus unum you know on our
money like you know from many one like
the the plurabus part's easy the plurus
part you just get a bunch of dissimilar
elements and put them in a room like the
unum part's [clears throat] the hard
part like how do you take all of these
different people from different
religions different cultures different
places different capabilities different
constitutions and we have this thing in
common. Well, we it used to be a thing.
We all stood up when the flag, you know,
got raised or we all that's gone now.
It's actually almost profane to say,
"Oh, I I love America." If you say, "I
love America," you're you're
automatically presumed to be right-wing.
You're automatically presumed to be You
couldn't possibly be a progressive
leftist, which by the way, I I lean more
progressive left politically, but I I
still think like there is value in these
common threads. We lost that. And then
to say, well, we lost our our touch
point, our our our our, you know, our
north star, our Rosetta Stone, like the
thing that made all of it make sense. We
lost that and we're wondering why we're
all wandering around like the Smurfs in
the woods without Papa Smurf. Like, I
don't think it's that hard to figure out
that that's what happened. And the same
thing happens in relationships because
relationships are just a function. You
know, again, it was always world,
country, culture, community, family,
couple.
And these these building blocks like
this basic one became very
unfashionable. And that's why in the
70s,
your temporary happiness
became much more important than the
broad social thread, the the thing
you're trying to do. Like when you and
Lisa started a business and when you
started the business of your family life
together, your couple, your coupling
together, like you decided to tr like
Jaco Willene would say, you you
discipline, you trade what you want now
for what you want most.
>> So you both said, "Hey, what I want most
is deep connection to another person for
a lifetime."
And so I'm going to trade the shiny
things. I'm going to trade autonomy. I'm
gonna trade maybe some of the pleasure
of solitude sometime. I'm gonna trade
that because I think this other thing is
worth more. That that's even
controversial to say now that like deep
connection with another person over the
course of an extended period of time and
again like not to tie it to the bigger
thing again but
you know it's not a coincidence that
around the 1970s
is when TV really proliferated.
And you know my mentor in graduate
school before I went to law school I I
got my master's degree and I was working
on my PhD in a field called media
ecology which is the study of
information environments.
>> Interesting.
>> And my mentor was Neil Postman and and
he was the chair of my dissertation
committee and he was the chair of my
when I wrote my master's thesis and Neil
wrote a book called Amusing Ourselves to
death public discourse in the age of
television
and he wrote a book called The
Disappearance of Childhood. He wrote a
book called Technopoly the Surrender of
Culture to Technology and he was very
precient like he He saw that technology
like our society is an ecosystem.
So when you add a salamander to an
ecosystem, you don't have the old
ecosystem plus a salamander. You have a
whole new ecosystem because that
salamander eats this bug, but that bug
used to eat this plant. And that plant
when it dies creates a By the way, now
you take the salamander out, you don't
have the old environment you had. you
have a whole new environment cuz now
that salamander changed things. So what
happens in the 1970s? Everybody's
focusing on hormonal birth control. And
I'm not suggesting that that's not a
real thing that the advent of hormonal
birth control changed sex. Sex was now
women had a tremendous amount of control
over pregnancy and whether they wanted
to be pregnant or not and it changed the
constitution of women. No doubt. No
doubt. A lot of really smart people have
talked about that. But it's also when
the proliferation of advertising began.
Because remember, television,
just like YouTube or just like any form
of social media, the purpose of
television is to keep you watching the
ads. It's not to entertain you. It's to
entertain you enough that you stay for
the ads. Like that's the purpose of
television. So advertising,
I believe, is the opposite of therapy.
If the purpose of therapy is to help you
cultivate and maintain some sense of
wellness and wholeness, then advertising
is the opposite of therapy. Because the
fundamental core message of advertising
you will never hear in an ad, you're
fine. You don't need anything. You don't
need to buy anything. You don't need to
do anything. You're fine. The core
message of every single advertisement is
the same. You're not okay. You're not
okay. You're doing it wrong. Redemption
is available. You You'll be okay, but
there's some stuff there's some stuff
you need. You need to get this or you
need to do this or you need to be more
like this. But it's all fundamentally
underneath those other messages is
you're not okay. [snorts]
If that now has become, by the way,
advertisement and information has become
a form of garbage. It comes at us from
everywhere all the time with devoid of
context most of the time. It's just
coming at us constantly and again that
fundamental message is you're not okay
and we're wondering why we're all not
okay. Like in the 1970s we unleashed on
society and since have continued to
amplify
at a steady trajectory the amount of
advertising that we are because by the
way what is Instagram other than an ad
for me?
Look at me. Look at how great I'm doing.
Like look at look at how beautiful my
life is. This is my greatest hits right
here. And by the way, you're watching it
when you're living your gag reel because
you're not when you're like having the
most wonderful time with Lisa or with
friends. You're not like, "Hang on, I
want to check my Instagram feed."
>> No, you're like having your moment.
You're in it. You're having a blast.
When are you looking at your Instagram?
When you're on the toilet, when you're
bored, when you're on the subway, when
there's nothing going, you're waiting
for someone, you know? So, you're in
like your gag reel. you're in your
boring moment and you're watching
everyone's curated amazing everything,
their filtered beautiful things, the
photos that are the best photos cuz
that's what anyone's posting. So, we're
now like living and creating our own
advertisements which are again the core
message is still you're not okay. You
need to do something different. You need
to be better. And we're wondering why
we're also kind of miserable and lost
and don't know what should be important
anymore.
I don't know. It's not that shocking to
me.
>> All right. So, given all of that, do you
think there is still wisdom in getting
married?
>> Marriage is a legal status. It's a
contract between you and the government
essentially. Like you and Lisa have a
prenup.
>> No.
>> No. No. You do. You do. It was written
by the government. It's written by the
government and they can change it
without your permission.
>> Fair.
>> Every marriage has a prenup. What's a
prenup? A prenup is a rule set. A prenup
says in the event that this marriage
ends in something other than death,
because every marriage ends, it ends in
divorce or death, but every single
marriage ends. I hope yours ends in
death. What a weird thing to say out
loud to a human being, right? Like I
hope you and Lisa end in death. Like But
I mean it.
>> So does my wife, by the way, she will
instantly go together.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Like in the same Yeah.
That's That's good. Like Like right when
you're both having sex at the age of 95,
the roof caves in and you instantly both
die. That's lovely. That's a Listen, I
You know what? I wish this for you. I
hope that this happens. But the truth is
all marriages end. And when they end,
there's a rule set applied, right? So,
do you not have a will because you don't
want to think about death? No. You have
a will because you don't want the
government to decide what happens to
your property, you know? Well, you have
a prenup. You just decided the
government's going to write your prenup.
And that's okay. You have the right to
do that. By the way, they can change it.
>> Like, it's the most legally significant.
Getting married is the most legally
significant thing you're going to do in
your life other than dying. It changes
all of your fundamental rights. It
changes your ownership rights. It opts
you out of the title system. It changes
your estate and inheritance rights. It
changes your rights and obligations when
it comes to the collection of support
from the other person and economic
stability. Like it creates a whole
bunch. By the way, you buy a house, you
get a HUD one, a lead paint disclosure,
you get married, you get a pamphlet, you
get anything? No.
>> Anybody give you a piece of paper?
Right? Most people learn legally what
they did when they got married when
they're in my office.
>> It's the first time that they learn what
actually happened legally. And so again,
like to me,
and I don't say this disrespectfully,
I think if you and Lisa didn't marry, I
think you'd be as happy as you are now.
Like happy together. Like I I think you
love each other. I think it's really
amazing to love each other. Look, it's
an unfalsifiable premise. I know. But
I'm telling you, I only know a couple of
happily married people. You're one of
them. I got a friend Chris. I got like a
couple. Not many. Not many. I got to
think about it. Like I bet you do, too.
If I said to you, "How many people are
unhappily married or divorced that you
know?" It's probably a bigger number
than the number of people that like, "Oh
my god, they are genuinely happily
married." It's true for most people. If
you look at that and you go, "Yeah, you
know, like this is people are not good
at this, right?" But the people that are
good at it, the people that are
genuinely happy with it, I I just don't
know that the legal status was required
>> for Rich, I'm not saying it doesn't
bolster it in some way. I'm not saying
maybe it does, you know, it adds a
signifier like saying, "Oh, she's my
girlfriend."
>> It's signifying a depth of connection
like, "Oh, no. This is someone to be
taken seriously. This is my this is my
wife, right? Like it's a signifier. But
again, like you know, the best
description I ever heard of God
is that God is the name we give to the
blanket we put over a mystery to give it
shape.
>> That's very interesting. Okay. And so I
think similarly,
marriage
is a is a wall we try to build around a
deep connection we have to another
person
to to protect it, to bolster it, to
prevent it from falling apart, to
prevent it from the thousand natural
shocks the flesh is heir to, right? And
all the all the the things that are
antagonistic to our bonds and our union.
Like we try to really bolster the thing,
it it doesn't work very well. Like it
doesn't work very well. Like people are
constantly cheating. People are
constantly just taking for granted their
connection to this person and letting it
fall apart. People are a lot of them
incredibly miserable in their marriages.
Now again,
is that in part because once we've built
those walls, we go, "Cool. I don't have
to think about that anymore. Like it's
safe now. I'm married. Like we we're
married. She's they're they're with me.
They're good. Like whereas
>> that on women, I don't think you're
going to get that with guys. Let let me
make a pitch here. Tell me uh what you
think about this. So
>> uh the most important book that I've
ever read that has impacted my marriage
more than anything else was a book
called The Power of Myth. Written by
Joseph Campbell, the guy that helped
George Lucas write Star Wars. And in it,
he puts forward the idea that we don't
have enough rituals in our lives
anymore. And I can't remember if he says
this expressly or this is just what I
was going through. And so it landed for
me this way, but my memory of it is he
was saying part of the reason I think
the divorce rate is so high is that
there's no meaningful transition between
not married and married. And so when I
think about marriage as an artifact of
evolution, like you were saying, the
wisdom that's passed down, this is
people that are like, "Okay, wait a
second. We understand that the kid has a
way better chance of surviving long
enough to have kids. If two people come
together, they stay together. We know
that the human mind has a very
fascinating ability to make a concept
very tangible. So God is a concept, but
oo buddy does it become very tangible.
People will kill for it, die for it, the
whole nine,
>> right?
>> And one of the ways we lock that in is
by putting people through a ritual.
>> Yeah. And so he was going through all
these different like coming of age
rituals used to be a thing and all that
stuff. And so
>> quests.
>> Exactly. So I said, "Okay, I want to be
different the day after I get married
than the day before."
>> I love that.
>> And so I went through a ritualistic
scarification.
>> I wanted it to be painful. When I tell
people it was a tattoo, they always get
disappointed. But uh for me, it's the
only tattoo I've ever gotten. It's the
only tattoo I will ever get. And I
specifically wanted to do something that
I didn't want. I did not want to tattoo.
I hated needles at the time. Not that I
love.
>> I was going to say if you said you hated
tattoos, we're going to have a trouble.
>> You and I are very, very different. But
uh I certainly didn't want to do it, but
I wanted to go through something painful
and I wanted a permanent reminder that
I'm a different person now.
>> Yeah. And having that psychology, going
into it like that, going in saying,
"Okay, listen." Barring, you know,
certain things, obviously, if my wife
was unfaithful or was in some way cruel
or abusive or whatever in a way that
crosses some line,
>> then sure, I would not stay in a
loveless marriage or anything like that,
but I wanted to make divorce like an
absolute like that is uh you're burning
the whole thing down. That is not the
thing that you do to get rid of
termites. You don't decapitate to get
rid of the dandruff. like this really
really needs to be something that we
protect. So
>> that thinking in that way is more
important than the act itself. But there
was something about
>> thinking like okay this I need a
transition. I need something that
demarcates my life before and after.
>> Yeah.
>> I want to treat this as something that's
ceremonial.
>> Like all of those things led up to just
walking into the marriage. the the
actual act of marriage in a way that was
like I am trying to cement something
that's going to be forever. And so when
I think about I think to sum up my
thesis on why men and women are going
wrong where the problem lies with modern
life in general is that we're no longer
living in accordance with the algorithms
in our brain. Mhm.
>> And because of that, like blank slate
beliefs are like the biggest violation
of the algorithms running in your brain.
Men, like anybody that is confused as to
how different men [snorts] and women are
need only watch how Lisa interviewed
you. So she just recorded an interview
with you before now.
>> If people watch them back to back, they
will see very quickly. I'm queuing on
different things.
>> Recording them back to back, I will tell
you is I'm getting whiplash cuz it's so
different. And I just spent a bunch of
hours with her in a very different
conversation and this is like the I I'm
doing contrast therapy right now. Like I
just got out of the sauna and you are
the cold plunge.
>> Correct.
>> And it's and I love it. Like I love it.
I love that. I do it all the time. But
man, I feel that that difference.
>> Now my wife has masculine traits. I have
feminine traits. So we're already closer
to the center than most people. So when
I think about people that are much
farther apart trying to blank slate
their way through life, I'm just like,
"Woo, buddy, you are going to be
routinely confused
>> because you have certain
>> uh tendencies, leanings, however you
want to think about it, that are pulling
you through life. And if you expect the
other person to be like you, you're
going to be eternally confused." Lisa
made no sense to me when I thought she
viewed the world the same way that I
did.
>> Yeah.
>> And it was only when I was like, "Oh,
wait. She has a different brain
structure. She perceives the world
differently than I do.
>> Uh she has slightly different value set
than I do. Hormonally is wildly
different. So
>> that has uh that was really
transformative to wake up and say she's
not me but illogical. She just actually
is experiencing a different animal.
>> Yeah. In a totally different way. So I
need to figure out, okay, wait a second.
What are you going through right now?
What is this like for you? to your
point, tell me what being a good husband
actually means for you. And I like the
way you say it. It's a verb. Ultimately,
it comes down to a thing you do.
>> There's no mystery in this, my love.
There's only like you want me to do a
thing. What is that thing?
>> But that's what I said when I said
there's simplicity and complexity and
it's this dance, right? Right. So, like
there's so much there to unpack and all
of it was really great and it's a
completely different conversation than
the one I just had with your wife. But I
will say and you know I would encourage
anybody watching this one to watch that
one because I have to tell you like
you're going to see a very different
thing. But what I would say first is
okay so first to to Joseph Campbell the
power of myth dial it back even further
to what inspired that which was Carl
Young man and his symbols. You know,
because you know, Jordan Peterson, a lot
of his stuff is informed by Joseph
Campbell, Joseph Campbell informed by
Carl Jung. So when we [snorts] think
about Carl Young and a lot of his, you
know, theories of the collective
unconscious and archetypes and all of
those kinds of concepts and the idea
that like that which you most need to
see is in is often in the place you most
fear looking, you know, that's really
where where Jung's perspective came
from. But he believed rightly we are
creatures of symbol and meaning makers.
Like we're constantly trying to make
meaning. And we all know this. Like no
no one could dispute that we're meaning
makers. [snorts] Like we we see anything
and we immediately start trying to make
sense of what's going on here. We start
to tell the story of like what is this?
Like you see me and you go okay he's a
lawyer and he's got tattoos and like
what's he trying to say? What's the
story he's trying to tell? What can I
extrapolate from this? You have like the
I'm very clean shaven. You have the
like, "Oops, I didn't know I was sexy
stubble." You know, like, but we're
we're both doing a thing. Like, we're
both doing a thing. And it's a choice.
And by the way, even not choosing is a
choice. Like, being like, "Oh, I I just
don't like this cuz I don't care." Cool.
That's a choice. Like, it's a story you
want to tell the world. And that's
great. Like, we're all telling stories.
We have all these symbols and we want to
either wear them or display them. Like,
this suit is as much of a symbol as
anything on my tattoos, right? Because
what is this supposed to say? [snorts]
Theoretically, what a suit says is I'm
taking what I'm doing seriously, right?
Like, why do you wear a suit to a
wedding? Why do you wear a suit to a job
interview? Why do I wear a suit to
court? Because I take this seriously.
That's the point. It's And again, I
don't know that that's accurate. I don't
know that you couldn't create a world
where you wear something like if you
wear a red hat, you take this very
seriously. It's just a symbol. We made
it up. Even the words I'm using right
now, right? When you think about like
logoraphic versus simographic writing,
if you look at like you know Julian
James and like the origin of
consciousness and the breakdown of the
bicameal mind like we we had this world
of of sort of infinite symbols and we
had to start reducing it to make meaning
and sense of it you know and Wickenstein
said you know where understanding fails
a word comes to take its place. So
because we have to try to fit things
into these little symbolic boxes so we
can explain them. So, do I think when
you say like I wanted to get a tattoo, I
wanted to like I am changing. This is
like a vision quest like I'm going to
now be a new person. I'm being you're
being baptized, you know, like I'm being
baptized into marriage. There's this
symbol, this symbolic event. I think
that's incredible. I think that's the
one of the most useful and primal basic
things that human beings across time and
across cultures do. And by [snorts] the
way, I think a wedding, like if you say
to me, do I believe in marriage? Like,
do I think marriage has value? I think a
wedding has a tremendous amount of
value. Like you just described a wedding
in the first part of your your
discussion there. You're you're not
talking about marriage. You're talking
about a marriage ceremony,
>> right? as a symbol of the start of a
journey, which is a marriage. But a a
wedding ceremony, who who wouldn't say a
wedding ceremony isn't amazing? And I'm
not talking about cuz like the cake is
good and you like little pigs and
blankets, although that's pretty good.
And [snorts] and like you like to do the
chicken dance or whatever it might be.
Like what you're saying is, hey, let's
get everyone who was part of our journey
in a room
all together because they built us. And
then let's stand up and say, "I found my
person." There's eight billion people in
the world. I found my person. Like, I
found the person that in this
terrifying, dangerous world where we
have very little control over a lot of
things, I'm going to hold their hand and
they're going to hold mine. And we'll
never be alone. We're just going to look
out for each other. And you know what?
Pain is coming. Suffering is coming. But
we'll hold each other's hand and we'll
figure it out. And the joy will be that
much sweeter because we have each other
to share it with. And the pain will be a
little softer because we'll have each
other to like hold on to and to shield
each other from. And we'll see each
other's blind spots because I can't
learn everything I need to know about
myself from myself. So I like need
someone to help see my blind spots.
Ideally, someone who really has my back
and who I can trust that when they say
something, it's less for their
self-interest and more for the long-term
benefit of our things. Like what a great
thing to do that in a room and to say,
"Hey guys, everybody, so this is my
person. So if you see me like losing the
plot, you know, get involved." And by
the way, I'm going to wear this. I'm
going to wear this ring and I'm going to
like that's going to be a symbol so that
everybody knows, oh, I got my person.
Like if you're looking for a person, you
don't have to look at me cuz I got mine
already. You know, like this these are
lovely, valuable, wonderful symbols.
Getting married is beautiful. It's
incredible. It's fun.
Being married is the harder part.
>> Do you think that there are universal
themes as to why 70ish%
of them fail?
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think they're actually
really really simple and really complex,
but the simplicity
I think we don't always know what we
want.
We don't always know how to express it.
I don't know about you, but I am still a
little bit of a mystery to myself.
There's parts of me I don't completely
understand. And I don't have an
unexamined life. Like, I've been in
therapy a long time. I really try to be
reflective. I really try to be a little
egoless when I'm looking at like, hey,
what could I do different? What could I
do better? Why do I do what I do? Where
do I get it wrong? I have no shame of
like acknowledging that I have faults
and flaws. It's like I don't believe we
have to be perfect to be perfect,
but I still don't really completely
understand myself. I sometimes surprise
myself with like, "Wow, why did I do
that? Why did I say that?" You know, why
do I feel that? Like, you feel how you
feel. Like, sheer power of will
sometimes isn't going to change how you
feel. You feel how you feel. And you can
try to talk yourself out of your
feelings, but you feel how you feel.
Okay. Okay. So, if it's that hard to
navigate myself
and I'm in here with me, how am I how am
I going to navigate another person
like who just like me is having those
same struggles figuring themselves out?
Now, there's a school of thought that
would say, "Oh, maybe I'll actually see
you more clearly than you see me if
we're intimate enough." Like, if we're
honest enough, like what is intimacy?
But the ability to be completely
yourself with another person kind of
naked. I don't mean naked naked. That's
a piece of it like naked like raw.
Here's me. Here's my good parts, my bad
parts, the [ __ ] I need to work on.
>> And you know, we don't know. Discover
water probably wasn't a fish.
>> Like, so when you're in it, you don't
see it. So maybe there's value in like
seeing someone, you know, someone who
sees you really honestly and fully. I
think that would be the highest
aspiration in a marriage would be to be
able to say
at the end of your life like this person
helped me become the most authentic
version of myself. Like what a blessing
to say at a wedding. Like I I hope Lisa
helps you become the most authentic
version of yourself. I hope you help her
become the most authentic version of
herself.
>> But for some reason people don't.
>> Yeah. Because again,
I just don't find it surprising when
people like set off on a journey with no
map, no training on how to like find
trails and no idea where they're
actually going because you're not really
allowed to say it except the very
general terms like and then they get
lost and go, I can't believe we're lost.
Like I can't believe you didn't get like
that would be shocking if you didn't get
lost. Like it's like getting in a cab
and saying let's go where? Uh I'm not
sure. somewhere, you know, how are we
going to get there? Not sure. I don't
know. Somewhere somehow. Like it doesn't
make like we we we don't talk about
marriage as like a skill set. We we talk
about it like it's this
magical thing that you should just be
good at. And if you are not, you must be
a bad person or they're a bad person or
you picked the wrong person. They're not
your soulmate. You know, your soulmate'
be perfect. be perfect all the time and
you'd never even have to work at it. You
know, because that's the the two biggest
lies about marriage. I think we tell
people that marriage is work. Marriage
is hard work.
No, it not necessarily. Like it's hard
work. Like if you think paying attention
is hard work. If you think checking in
with a person is hard work. If you think
being communicating with someone is hard
work, okay, then maybe it's hard work.
But like it's not. Be a hot be a hot tar
roofer. That's hard work. You know, like
be a landscape. That's hard work. like
marriage, like quantum physics hard
work, you know, but like marriage, like
I I've had people say to me, you know,
oh, you know, like we just moved in
together and you know, that's like hard.
That's hard. And I'm like, well, really?
Like because I I remember it being like
a lot of putting IKEA furniture together
and having sex. Like that's a lot of
what early cohabitation was. So to say
like it's hard, but also to say it
should not be any work. It should be the
easiest thing. It should just be
effortless. That's equally ignorant.
Like what it really is is the this
balance between simplicity and
complexity. But again the fundamental
piece is we have a shared vision of
where we want to go and we have some
clarity together of like what are the
paths to get there? Like how do we how
do we check in? How do we know like when
we've lost the plot? Because there are
so many ways in a connection with one
person that you can unintentionally I
would even say like the things you do to
try to make each other happy very often
end up destroying the happiness you were
trying to create.
Like I'll give you the example of sex
because so many people that are in my
office
sexual dissatisfaction is a huge piece.
She stopped sleeping with me. He's
sleeping with his secretary. And by the
way, if you get the reason why we're
like every state is now a no fault state
pretty much is because the truth's at
the bottom of a bottomless pit. Like,
you know, we're getting divorced cuz he
cheated on me. No, I cheated on you
because you hadn't had sex with me in
three years. I didn't have sex with you
in three years because you haven't said
a kind word to me. Well, I didn't say a
kind word to you because all we do is
fight when we talk to each other. I
don't know. Like, we're off to the
races, man. Whose fault is it then? It's
everybody's fault or it's nobody's
fault. I don't know. Like, we're never
going to get there. But the truth is
like sex is important. We can all agree.
If if it's not, I don't know that you
need to get married. Like just have a
roommate. That's fine. Like there's a
sexual element to marriage. Like I don't
think that should be a hot take. Like
you're saying I'm going to Again, even
if you were like ethically non- monogous
or polyamorous, there's a sexual
component to marriage.
>> No. Is this where you would start if a
couple came and said, "Look, we really
want to make this work, but we're sort
of on the edge here." M
>> is this like okay tool number one get
your sex life right?
>> Yeah get your sex life right but I don't
think that that means what people think
it means. I think people think that
means have more sex or like have very
like ritualistic sex where it's like you
know tantric and long and make sure that
you know guy even though you really want
to have like just like fun dirty sex
that's a quickie that you have to like
nurture because women are women are
ovens and men are microwaves and like we
love that stuff like we love those
axioms. We want to turn everything into
a roomie poem. I get it. But you know
the truth is like it it's actually like
the example I give about sex is is this.
So you you start dating someone that's
how every relationship starts right we
meet we meet on the street you know I
meet her she meets me we catch each
other's eye whatever it might be we
secretly think like oh that might be fun
this might be someone I'd want to have
sex with or this might be someone who
looks interesting and I'd like to get to
know whatever whatever whatever
progression it is that you feel. So
[snorts] now we start seeing each other
whether that happens quickly or slowly
but at some point we have sexual
connection right a sexual connection
becomes part of our relationship now
chances are society we're not a virgin
right we're not a virgin
>> we're kids today
>> kids today are are their body counts are
high okay
>> kids
>> well no kids no kids know yes I'm sorry
yes when you say kids yes I I you're
absolutely right generationally
>> Galloway has talked a lot about this. A
lot of good people have talked about
this and they're absolutely right. Like
the current digital generation, Gen
Alpha,
>> yeah,
>> they are they are not having a bunch of
sex. Like, but go in the other go a
generation back and it was like, holy
cow, millennials got a body count. Okay.
>> So, either way, and even, by the way,
even if you haven't had sex, you consume
pornography. That's a big like the
proliferation of pornography is
gigantic. So you have some frame of
reference whether it's porn or actual
sexual experience or sexual experience
inspired or educated by porn
>> which is another variety. It's another
animal because if that's your sex
education is watching porn you are going
to have a really weird and distorted
view of what sex is supposed to look
like and be. And if you shape your sex
around porn you're going to make a very
specific kind of of sexual connection.
But let's just step all that back and
say, okay, [snorts] so you get with a
person and because this is an example
of, I think, people sabotaging their own
happiness with the absolute best of
intentions. So just saying to a couple,
you got to get your sex life right. What
the hell does that mean? So what it
means is, I think, is think about what's
really going on here. So you start
having a sexual relationship with
someone, what do you do? You use your
past experience or the education that
you have, wherever it came from, to try
to please them. It's the purpose of sex
to please yourself and please the other
person. And when you're, you know, you
want to be a good lover. So what do you
do? You throw everything you know,
[laughter] you throw every trick you can
at the person, right? Everything any
girl you ever were with liked. You're
going to try it. Oh, that she liked
this, so maybe she'll like this. And
then pretty quickly, you figure out,
okay, here's like the six things she
really likes. And here's like she
figures out pretty quickly, here's like
the five, six things he really likes.
This is easy. This is great. This is
great. And then what do you do? Play the
hits. Play the hits, man. Come on. Are
you gonna see Bruce Springsteen? Like,
I'm not here to hear like acoustic ghost
to Tom Jode. Like, play Born to Run.
Play Thunder Road. Like, play Born in
the USA. Like, play the hits. We got a
tight schedule here. Like, let's go.
Let's have Let's do the best stuff. And
by the way, such good intentions. I want
to please you. You want to please me?
Let's have like let's do the best stuff
that we know the other person likes.
What did we just do? We just made a
routine.
>> We just made a routine. And now, if we
have an environment where we've been
told, you're supposed to be naturally
good at this. it shouldn't require
preventative maintenance. You should
just be good at this. You shouldn't even
have to talk about it. It should just be
easy.
Well, now like you're kind of in this
routine. So, when you're in a routine,
when you deviate from the routine, it's
like kind of odd and sometimes it it
feels weird or it feels a little
disconcerting, right? Like when you go
to Europe, you know, you're six hours,
it feels a little weird. You're a little
upside down for a few minutes. You know,
I just came in from the East Coast. I'm
a little upside down right now. It feels
later. So, you don't you avoid that
conflict. You just go, "Okay, you know
what? let's just like we'll leave it,
you know, we'll leave it. Okay. Well,
now you're becoming dissatisfied with
your sex life because it's become
routine even with the best of
intentions. Novelty now starts to look
really good because when you've only
been eating like your favorite meal if
you ate it every single day for every
eventually you start to burn out on it.
So, I think it it becomes now again
there's a solution to that. So, when
you'd say to someone, hey, you're in a
relationship, you got to get your sex
life right. I would say it's even
broader than that. Just say, "Listen,
why wouldn't you just check in
on a regular basis? Build this into your
relationship." Like in my book, I talk a
lot about really simple, basic things
you could do that cost nothing. Like
once a week sending an email to the
other person or going on a walk-in talk
together for a half an hour where you
just say, "Tell me three things I did
this week that made you feel loved.
>> [snorts]
>> Tell me three things this week I could
have done better. Tell me three things I
did this week that kind of gave you the
ick. Tell me three times this week that
you looked at me and you were like, I
want to have sex with him. Like what
were three things I was doing? And by
the way, you'd probably be surprised by
the answers because like you said,
they're a different creature.
>> Oh yeah, men will be shocked.
>> They'd be shocked. Like I I work in an
office that has a lot of women in the
particularly in the front. So I have
like a lot of administrative assistants
and parallegals that are women. I feel
like Margaret me sometime like looking
at the Yanomamo tribe. Like I'm sitting
in the conference room eating my lunch
and I can hear them talking to each
other and the stuff comes out of their
mouth. I'm like
like really you guys like the stuff they
notice that we don't even like the stuff
they're attracted to the stuff they're
repelled by that we thought they liked.
Like it's crazy. It's a different
animal.
>> And so and again that's like not a
popular thing to say now to say men and
women are different. If you even just
say that sentence, men and women are
different. Oh my god. Like it's
blasphemy. It's heresy.
>> So, and we wonder why we're having a
hard time. [snorts] Like I I genuinely
think that if we built into our
relationship some basic my book is about
preventative maintenance. It's all it's
about. Like if you're in my office, it's
probably too late. like you, you know,
as a person who's been in the nutrition
space longer than most, it is a lot
easier to maintain your health and your
weight than to get really heavy and
really sick and then try to fix it. I'm
not saying
if you've become obese and you've got
type two diabetes, give up. You screwed
up. You're done. No, there's so much you
can do. The comeback stories are
amazing. People, the human body is so
resilient. It's amazing. But we all know
it's a whole lot easier to maintain than
to let something fall apart and then try
to build it. So with relationships,
here's what's amazing about marriage.
We're starting in the same place. There
were 8 billion people. We chose each
other. We we've decided to do this
specific job. We both want to be good at
it. That's the story we're writing.
That's the simplicity. Now, from minute
one, what are we going to do to shore it
up? Because again, if you don't have 10
minutes a week to devote to checking in
on your marriage, then you you need at
least a few hours a week, right? It's
like what the Tiknad Hans said, you
know, he was talking to a CEO who said,
you know, he said, "You should start a
meditation practice." And he said,
"Well, how would I meditate?" He says,
"Take 15 minutes a day and meditate."
And he said, "Well, I don't have 15
minutes to meditate." He said, "Okay,
then you need an hour."
And it's true. Like, I think we need to
build this in. And if you if you can't
be bothered
or well, I'm afraid we don't have that
kind of communication. Well, that's the
problem, man. That's the problem. Like,
the problem is that if we're in a place
where we can't like when I talk to
people about prenups, they're like, "Ah,
you know, like it's a hard
conversation." If you can't have hard
conversations with this person, don't
marry them. I beg you
>> because it's going to end poorly.
>> Like, you have to be able to have hard
conversations with this person. You have
to be able to to to have a little like
fearlessness, you know? I think you have
to be brave to be married. Like, you
have to be brave to be married. Well,
and and the mistake we make in this
culture, I think, is thinking that
bravery is just like a virtue that you
either have or you don't have. So,
you're either brave or you're scared.
Like I I think it's only brave if you're
scared.
>> Like if you're not scared, it's not
brave. Like it's brave when you're
scared and you do it anyway. And so I
think that's what makes, you know, this
harder than it needs to be is that we
we've taken away
any structure. We've never taught
anybody very basic practical things.
If you left your wife a note every
morning or a couple times a week on the
mirror or on the table where you know
she you know does that just said I
married the prettiest girl in the world.
What is this? What does this take? 10
seconds 10 sec 20 seconds to do
something like that. What does it cost?
Nothing. Cost nothing. Who wouldn't want
to get that note? Wouldn't you want to
get if if she left you a note saying
you're the hottest guy I know?
>> Like who wouldn't want to get that note?
>> Yeah.
>> Who wouldn't want to get like I've
jokingly said before and I've been
pillaried for it. I I've said that nudes
are for men what flowers are for women.
>> You pillared for that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Because why why do I have to
send nudes that men are there? Well, not
all men like nudes. Okay. Like really?
Like okay, you're right. But like most
men I know, I've never had a man I know
and I've never myself got a nude sent to
me by someone I was and went
who's got time for this. Like I don't,
you know, this is ridiculous. Like I
don't need that right now. I'm busy.
Like I'm always happy.
>> Correct.
>> Like 53 years old, I have never seen a
woman take her shirt off that I didn't
feel like I want to applaud. Like it's
just makes me happy, you know? So, we're
we're kind of easy creatures. Like, and
I don't know any woman, by the way.
Like, I don't think penis pictures have
the same effect on women.
>> I am sad to report
>> they're not. Yeah, they're not. And and
I can tell you cuz working in an office
full of women, if you send unsolicited
dick photos, everyone is going to see
them. Like, all of the women in the
office are going to see them. And by the
way, if you send unsolicited ones,
>> you're kind of opening yourself up to
it. If a woman sends you a confidential
private picture that you've solicited
from her and you show it to people,
you're a villain as far as I'm
concerned.
>> But if somebody sends you something
unsolicited, fair game, fair game, you
know. So, but again, what what is the
female equivalent of nudes? It's
attention. It's praise. It's, you know,
it's something that acknowledges that
you're seen, that you're valued, that
you're loved, that you're important. So,
how hard is any of this self-evident?
I'm shocked that that is um
controversial. So,
>> besides the guy who's been married for
20some years, like yeah, it could be
that you're good at a thing and maybe
people didn't have to teach you it.
>> Well, here's what I want to know. What's
the most controversial thing that you
believe that you're like, "Oh god,
>> this one is so the clip that gets
cancelled people up.
>> Is this [snorts] the is this?"
>> You'll never get cancelceled. You're too
good at what you do.
>> I know. That's the best thing about it.
Thank God. I have to tell you, thank God
I have a profession I'm really good at
because it's the only way I haven't
gotten killed for the stuff that I say.
Because, you know, early on in my
career, some of my colleagues, not early
on in my media career, I should say.
Like, I was already a very established
attorney for the last 25 years and I
only really started the media thing like
two years ago. And some of my colleagues
were like, are you are you afraid this
is going to screw up your legal brand? I
was like, not at all. Like, I'm just
great in a courtroom. Like, that's at
the end of the day, like people don't
care. Like if I listen, I'm like a
progressive person, but if I needed like
a very specialized surgery and they
said, "Look, this guy, he's the best guy
in the world at this surgery, but he's
racist." I'd be like, I want him to do
the surgery. Like, I want to have dinner
with him. I'm not friends with him.
Like, is he really good at the surgery?
Cool. Like, just do the surgery, man.
Like, the same thing for me. Like, I
don't worry about But the hottest take I
have on relationship, it it's all going
to be gender based stuff because gender
stuff is so fraught right now. It's so
[ __ ] right now. [snorts]
>> Well, it is crazy to me, but I get it.
>> I don't like really understand. I think
it is absurd. I think people are
shooting [snorts] themselves in the
face, or to use your language, they're
stepping on the rake over and over and
over.
>> But you don't think that it was born of
good intentions? Like, I really believe
that some of this stuff was born of good
intentions.
>> Fine. I literally don't care. My thing
is what works.
>> So, yeah. Yeah. You're you're you're I I
get that you're like outcome focused and
you're also like I want to look at the
truth. I don't want to like what I wish
was true. Like I don't live in the
should like oh well it shouldn't be this
way. Okay. Whatever it shouldn't be like
it is. This is what it is, you know? So
I I totally get that. But I think we
have to if we're going to like function
as a culture. Maybe it's because I argue
for a living.
>> I'm very interested in understanding why
other people feel the way they feel.
Like people I vigorously disagree with.
Like I want to understand where we
diverge. I want to understand like
because I genuinely believe like if you
were right I would agree with you, you
know. And I want to believe that like
you know there's I I don't I don't know
that I don't believe that like people
are evil. I think that people aren't
evil. They do evil things because they
mistake it for happiness. But I don't
think that they do it like insidiously
nefariously. Like I think they're
shortsighted. I think they they don't
realize what the second order effects
are going to be. I'm very impressed that
you do what you do for a living and are
able to hold that. I think some people
are evil, but that's a frame of
reference saying you were going
somewhere with a gender thing.
>> Yeah, I think gender look I I think
I think if we went back to a very
traditional
economic structure in this country where
women were at home and men were working,
it would be it would be better for the
divorce rate. like we would not have as
many divorces. I think that
>> that a function of late capitalism was
let's get women into the workforce as
quickly as possible. Like two is better
than one. Like two economic cogs in the
machine is better than one.
>> And by the way, they didn't sell it that
way. They sold it properly. They sold it
as why why can't your mom be a doctor?
She has the right to be a doctor. Why
couldn't your dad be a stay-at-home dad?
like you have a right to this. And by
the way, same thing with the gender
stuff. Like same thing with the gender
stuff. Like why why why does it have to
be such clear lines as to how all men
have to be? You said it yourself a
minute ago. You have some feminine
things in you. So you're already meeting
in the middle. She has some masculine
things in her. So we're acknowledging
there's a spectrum and we're
acknowledging that there are masculine
and feminine. And we're acknowledging
that it doesn't have to be rigid lines.
That there should be some movement
between this. You can have a little more
of this, a little less of this. So we
know that. So why would we like I
understand the way we sold it to the
world was to say hey why are we putting
people in prisons we all have masculine
and feminine in us and so maybe gender
is just like a spectrum and a construct
okay you've overcorrected now like
gender means nothing biology means
there's no such thing even as biological
sex and you know like that's garbage
and we've lost that plot completely
I think if we could figure that out
again ideally without overcorrect acting
back in the other direction.
>> Now, some people are going to hear that
and say, "Well, it'll [snorts] be better
for the divorce rate because the woman
can't take care of herself and so she's
going to stay in the marriage just
because she's trapped." I assume that's
>> you control for that. No, you I mean,
listen, maybe you have universal basic
income. Maybe you have some other
[snorts] metric that creates like the
ability because I agree that there's
something to that like that if you have
you know I've worked with victims of of
intimate partner abuse, coercive
control, domestic violence who are like
economically or socially trapped in a
marriage. And you know I' I've I've been
there. I've done that. So I I certainly
think like finance can be a weapon. You
know you can certainly weaponize
someone's economic need in a in a real
way. I mean
>> but that's not what you mean. So why do
you think it would be better for
marriage if we had and you're not saying
>> well no what I'm saying let's separate
the two things. What I'm saying is I
think that if people were allowed to
engage their natural
state as men and women
I and without shame like so if a woman
could say yeah I just want to stay home
and have babies and like keep the home
fire burning
>> and a man could say yeah I don't really
want to like do babies like is my thing.
I want to like get out there and work. I
want to like get out there and bend the
world to my will. Like I enjoy that.
Like I want to like, you know, fight the
fight. And that wasn't a dirty word. I
think we would find some satisfaction. I
think I think a lot more of us would be
a lot happier. I think we've created a
system that is serving no one's needs
right now. Like I think everyone feels
lost. Like whatever you're doing, you
think you're doing it wrong. Like I
don't know very many women that
understand what's expected of them
anymore. And I think they actually also
if they're being honest and I you know
people lie to their therapist but they
don't lie to their divorce lawyer as
often. They'll say like yeah when I'm
with my kids I I feel like I'm failing
at work. When I'm at work I feel like
I'm failing my kids. Like I just can't
get anything right you know. Whereas
there was a time where a man was like
yeah I'm at work. Like that's where I'm
supposed to be. Like that's my role.
Like it's simple. It's clear. It's
clean. Like I know what's expected of
me. Like, don't doesn't everything want
to know what's expected of it? Doesn't
everyone thrive better under conditions
where you know you you know what you're
supposed to do that day? And and that
way you can say like, "Oh, I did it
right or I did it wrong or I'm
successful or fail." Like there's no way
anymore. There's no gauge anymore of
success. It it it it's really become
like even if you're incredibly
successful economically, yeah, but
you're like spiritually bankrupt. Well,
I'm spiritually rich. Yeah, but you're
not economically rich. like it whatever
metric you're failing at some other
metric cuz that's how it works. So I
think that is the broader problem and
it's wildly antagonistic to marriage. I
I think that's a take that I have that
is potentially controversial because
it's tied to gender stuff. My other big
thing is I I don't think that people's
children should be their highest
accomplishment. I think we've created a
culture where everybody's like my
proudest accomplishment is my kids. That
seems very strange to me and actually
quite sick because growth for the sake
of growth is the ideology of a virus or
a cancer cell. Like it, let's play this
theory out. If the most important thing
I'll ever do is have children, what's
the most important thing my children
will ever do? Have children. Like, okay.
And the most important thing their
children will do to be have children.
Okay. So, the highest calling is to
reproduce.
>> And reproduction is the goal in and of
itself. Like it's the highest thing is
to to fulfill the biological imperative
to take this half-formed thing that
comes out of a woman. Like that you
better hope whatever meets you on the
other side's going to help because we're
helpless when we're born. So we're going
to take this halfformed thing. We're
going to turn it into something that's
self- sustaining and that fulfills the
biological can reproduce itself. Great.
Okay. So that that's it. That's the
goal. That's why we're here. That's the
whole thing. Like that's crazy to me. So
then why have we structured it that if
you say anything other than well my the
day my children were born was the
greatest day. My my children are my
greatest accomplishment that that is
somehow profanity. If I was to say yeah
my greatest accomplishment was like
becoming so good at my craft and feeling
such success at it. What about being a
father? Yeah, I love being a father. It
was really really fun. It was like a
really cool thing I got to do and I'm
doing and it's great and I learned a lot
about myself from it and I think I added
some value to the world by these two
wonderful men that I helped build like
but I don't know that it was like the
most rewarding experience like by the
way that's my preference. What business
is that of yours that I you know that
yeah I liked that like I like apples. Oh
why do you hate oranges? I don't hate I
didn't say that. I said I like apples is
I wasn't like making metrics on fruit.
By the way, if I don't like oranges,
what what is it? Go enjoy all the
oranges you want. Like go make your
children the great cuz the when I said I
dared to say I think it was on on Diary
of a CEO. I dared to say, yeah, you
know, I don't think having children
should be like, you know, I don't
understand that being like people's
highest accomplishment in life. Oh my
god, you to think that I said I should
be allowed to expose my genitals to
children in public. Like it was crazy.
It was the reaction was my ch how dare
you mustn't have your children must I'm
like
all I dared say there is that like in
the in the value like yeah this was
great it was lovely but I don't know
that it's the only purpose there has to
be some higher nobler purpose of life
whether it's I don't know if you want to
believe it's to glorify God if you want
to believe it's to build things that
will last after you're gone I I don't
really know
>> you believe it is
>> I mean I'm I'm not a nihilist
But
I I I don't think the purpose of dancing
is to move from one point of the floor
to another. The purpose of dancing is to
dance. It's just to feel the thing, to
experience something that's going to
end. And like the song will end and the
dancing will stop and there you can't
hold on to it. It was an experience. It
was a moment. It was a thing you did.
Like what's the point of listening to
music? I don't know. It's just
beautiful. It just feels good. it it it
it you're part of some you feel like
you're part of something bigger. You you
in touch with something emotionally. I
think life is you know we're
experiencing something like we're we're
here to just move through and experience
something and it's impermanent and you
know I I don't know that we can know the
meaning. It's that's how I feel about
God. Like I think it's a form of hubris
to think you could understand God like
if there isn't is a God. [snorts]
>> Yeah. I believe in something. I I don't
I mean do I think like when people say
like God well he you believe God has a
penis like you called him he you you
think he has external genitalia like how
big is it then? Like I that makes no
sense to me. Like you don't actually
mean God's a man cuz I don't think you
think God has a penis and is it covered
or is he like wearing a loin cloth? Like
what what is God? So really what you're
saying is I think that there is some
force some some conscious omnipotent
creator deity that occasionally writes
books and talks to us and but stopped
recently you know okay so you believe
that right and by the way you believe
that if you imple him that he will
intervene.
So even though he created the entire
known universe and every single thing
that is happening,
he set into motion because you prayed
very hard, he cured your child's cancer.
The cancer he gave your child.
Like that to me that seems a little
strange. Like what's easier for me
personally to digest is if something
some force something could create the
entire known universe and is infinite
to think that I an ape right could
understand that thing is like hubris
like it's crazy like I there's I don't
understand like complex math like I
can't memorize like certain sets of
numbers with like if you tell me your
phone number now I'll forget it in 30
seconds like so and I think I'm going to
be able to understand the nature of an
omnipotent creator deity that created
the known universe but also was eternal
like so to me like the question of do
you believe in God yeah I I have a
feeling there's something I have a
feeling that there's no reason to be
afraid you know I was a hospice
volunteer for many years like I'm very
comfortable around death I've spent a
lot of time with death
>> and I see it like we've done ter a
terrible disservice to people by
distracting them and hiding death from
them. Like we live in a world where
death is just it happens behind closed
doors. You don't get to see it. How many
times have you been in a room and
someone died? Like I I've been in a room
a lot of times when people die. Like I
was a vigil volunteer for a number of
years.
>> Why seek that out?
>> It It's the most lifeaffirming
experience I think you could have. It's
incredible. It's an incredible
reminder of I think that our society is
designed to distract you from the fact
that you're going to die because if you
if you thought really and internalized
the fact that you're going to die, you
wouldn't pay attention to the
meaningless [ __ ] that keeps the machine
moving. [snorts] Like you would just
stop buying a lot of what they're
selling. I think that we deny death
because it's a great mystery. We're
terrified of it. and we culturally just
reaffirm it over and over by hiding it
from people. There is something for I I
will tell you being aos I think here's a
hot take. I think when you turn 18 you
should have to do a year or two of
mandatory hospice volunteering.
>> Damn. I [snorts] think if you spent time
with the terminally ill when you were
18, 19 years old, you would you would it
would change your it changed my entire
way of viewing the world
>> because they gave you a glimpse into the
finitness and that changes how you
>> just realize that just there's so much
of this [ __ ] doesn't matter. Like spend
time with people that are dying. They
don't they don't really all their stuff
is a great big pile of nothing. Like all
that they can talk about is like the
people that they love, the connections
that they made, the experiences that
they had that were beautiful or painful.
Like they and you when you're around
them,
like you could have a lot of stuff going
on in your day, but I would do like a
hospice visit. And by the way, like as a
hospice volunteer, you don't like sit
and talk about, you know, how are you
feeling about the fact you're dying.
Very rarely did anybody want to talk
about the fact that they were dying.
That was just a that was a reality they
couldn't deny. They're in a hospital bed
in their in their living room a lot of
the time. Like they wanted to talk about
their life. They wanted to talk about
what what's going on with the Yankees.
They wanted to talk about like other
things. They wanted to be alive, you
know? And and a lot of times what you do
as a hostage volunteer is you just are
there. You're just of service. You're
like, I'll I'll do the dishes. I'll take
out the trash. Like I do the grocery
shopping for you, whatever. Like I just
want to be of service. Like you're
dealing with this big thing. Let me help
with some of these other things. But I
would walk out of every single hospice
visit. And I was like a I was like a
samurai. Like I was like a zen monk.
Like I could hear the rain because I was
like I don't have esophageal cancer.
Like all the other stuff going on in my
life right now. I don't have that. Like
I don't have what's going on behind that
door right here on a street just like
the street you live on. There's a house
where someone right now is like they're
they're dying. Like their father is
dying. Their mother's dying. Like this
is it. This is it. and everything else
falls away. All the [ __ ] falls away.
All the things that were so important
five minutes ago when you got that
diagnosis or you got told we can't do
anything more. Like when my mom had her
last cancer surgery before she passed
away 10 years ago, they had said that
this is going to be about a 12-hour
surgery and there's going to be a team
of surgeons working because there's
different spots we have to. So we like
tucked in at the waiting room at Sloan
Catering. We're like, "Okay, we're going
to be here a really long time."
20 minutes later, they came in and they
said, "It's like a bomb went off, like
the cancer is everywhere. We opened her
up. We closed her up. There's nothing we
can do." And in that moment,
all of the other things that I was
stressed about, worried about, and all
that, the volume was turned so far down
on all those things because my mom was
going to die.
like and I all that became important was
how can I spend a little more time with
her? How can I make sure she knows I
love her? How can I savor this this
wonderful thing which by the way you're
dying?
Like Lisa's dying. There is a finite
number of times you will kiss your wife.
You don't know the number, but it's a
number. Like I'll be able to tell you it
someday. Like there's an finite number
though. Like and you won't know until
you've crossed over it, until you've
passed it. That that was it. That was
the last time. Like, and that [snorts]
to me, like if you don't keep that in
your line of sight, you're a fool.
You're a fool because you're going to
think you get to do that forever. You're
going to think you get to do that all
the time. And you don't. You will not do
that forever. Like there is a finite
number of times. And that's the most
beautiful thing in the world. It's what
makes that so special is that that that
it's finite. Like if it lasted forever,
like to live forever would be a curse.
Like being Dracula is a curse, you know?
But but the truth is like she's alive
right now. Right now she's alive. She's
in the other room. She's right there and
you get to kiss her as many times as you
want to. And isn't that the greatest
thing in the world? Like isn't that the
most, you know, Ticknot Han has this
this exercise that he says when you hug
someone?
You should think about the fact that
they're there and you're hugging them.
And then you should close your eyes and
think that they're dead and you're
hugging their dead body before you let
it go for the last time.
And then you should think about the fact
that they're alive and you're hugging
them.
If you do that, I'm telling you, your
whole way of viewing the world will
change. And so, hospice, for me, being a
hospice volunteer
was a a a undeniable glimpse into that
reality. And nothing has ever looked the
same since like nothing. And by the way,
it didn't change into like, well, now I
have to renunciate everything and become
a monk. And no, no. I just try to live
my life in a way that knows like every
time I say every single time I text or
talk to my sons who are 26 and 28, the
last thing I say is I love you. Even if
I'm fighting with them, even if I'm
pissed at them, I'll be like, "Well, you
know what? That's ridiculous. All right,
I'll talk to you later. I love you."
Because I know the last thing I said to
them is, "I love you always." Because
someday that's the last time I said it
to them. Like I have to tell you, as a
father, I was I was in
I was in Whole Foods a couple of months
ago and there was a a younger man than
me, a guy in his 30s and he was just
standing there and he had like that look
that like a tired young father has and
he had this little boy with him, his
son. And the son was like doing what
that thing that kids do where he's like,
"Dad, can this dad see this, Dad?" And
the guy had the look at his face like,
"Oh my god, please." Like I just want
like a minute, you know? And [snorts] he
was like, "Daddy, daddy, look at that.
Daddy, did you see? Daddy, can we get
some of this? that, you know, and I
I remember that like I remember that.
>> I remember how exhausting it was.
And something in that moment I actually
thought, [snorts] "Oh, I'm not daddy
anymore."
Like there was a last time
that my sons called me daddy and I
became dad.
I've be I've been dad ever since.
If you had told me that's the last time
when it happened
when they said like, "All right, daddy.
See you later." If you'd said, "Oh, by
the way, that's the last time he's ever
going to call you daddy." Like, I I
would have wept.
But that had to die for me to become
dad. Like, and I really like being dad,
you know? It's a really nice thing to be
dad.
like things have to end for the next
thing, you know, or because things have
to end. But like
for me being a hospice volunteer and
being a divorce lawyer, it was it was
the same thing. It's endings.
Like it's all endings. Everything to me
like I think we have to look at things
from the lens of endings because
everything is ending all the time. Like
it's always ending all the time.
And we we deny that. We hide from it. We
run from it. We we try to like shield it
from ourselves and from each other. And
I I think we're doing a tremendous
disservice. So like to tie it back to
marriage,
that couple,
you know, they're starting the journey
together. [snorts] I would say to them,
do you both know you're going to lose
each other? Like do you know this is
going to end? Right? Like you know this
is going to end. It might end next week.
One of you might walk out of the house
and boom, the satellite falls from the
sky and kills you. Like people die all
the time for no reason. No dis readily
discernable reason.
Maybe if we started with that, like if
you knew this is the last day you'd get
to spend with your wife, you would not
be talking to me, man. You wouldn't be.
Well, you know what? It could be. I God,
I hope it's not, but man, it could be
like one day is going to be that day,
man. So, like to me, I don't know. Like,
figure figure that out. If you figured
that out and keep that in your line of
sight, again, I'm not saying you have to
like renunciate, never go out because oh
my god, like I, you know, I could like I
have to spend every minute with my
spouse because, but just remember that
this is not permanently gifted. It's
loaned. Your wife's love is loaned to
you. Your love is loaned to her. She
doesn't own it. She'll never be able to
own it. It's not permanent. It's
temporary. So feel it fully. Embrace it.
See it as the precious thing that it is.
See it as the finite thing that it is.
Take it seriously. Treat it like
something that is going away.
And if it has value to you, you would
remember to say like if you knew this
was the last time we were going to talk,
there's some things you'd say, you know,
and that's what's so great about like
hospice. It's what's so great when I
knew my mother was dying, you know, we
walked out of that hospital and she
started hospice and she was on hospice
for two years. I'd already been a
hospice volunteer at that point for
quite some time, but it was a very
different experience. [snorts]
And it just changed a lot of things. It
didn't really matter that we disagreed
about some things politically and that
we didn't have a perfect relationship. I
was a hard person to have as a son. She
was not a perfect mom. Like, but it
didn't really matter. Like, we loved
each other. like, you know, she she did
the best she could do and I did the best
that I could do. And like all that
really mattered at that moment was like,
do you know I love you? Do you know that
like I'm good? Like you'll be gone, but
like I'm good. You built this thing.
Like you built this amazing thing, you
know, and like I'm so happy. My life is
so good. Like so if your goal was to
like do a good job on that, you did. You
did a great job on that. Like, and that
to me, like when you know I'm only going
to have like four or five more
conversations with this person, like
that's it. They're slipping away. Like,
you could feel it,
man. Like, you only have the
conversations that matter at that point.
And I just think
I don't know. We're just so You want a
hot take? Like, we're so [ __ ]
ungrateful.
Like, we're so ungrateful. Like we could
just we should wake up every single day
and just be so grateful, man. We woke up
today. I've got this body. It works
really well. Like I've got people in my
life who love me and who I love. Like
and I I get to spend another day
interacting with them in some fashion.
Like I get to eat delicious food and
breathe clean air. Like this is like
these are But again, like the machine is
constantly telling me that like I'm
doing it wrong and that there's other
things I should be chasing. And look, I
I get it. Like it's cool to chase other
things and stuff like that, but come on,
man. Like come on. Like every single
thing you own some points can be on like
the junk heap. It doesn't mean anything.
Like what really means something I
believe is like the deep connections and
love we feel. Like when you look back on
your life, like it's just a series of
moments where you felt loved and where
you loved someone. Like it's everything.
It's everything. Like I'm a divorce
lawyer. Like people imagine me to be
like the grim reaper of love and
marriage. Like and fundamentally like I
think I'm the total opposite of that.
Like I am being around endings
has made me so unbelievably grateful for
the core thing which is love and
connection to feel love. Because I think
our biggest fear is that we're not
worthy of love. That we don't deserve
love. That the people who love us they
don't really know us. if they knew us,
they wouldn't love us. They would know
that we're just a mess, you know? But
the truth is, like, it's not true. Like,
if you said to me, Tom, like off camera,
Jim, like I know I seem like I got it
together, but like I'm a mess, man. I
feel like a mess. Like, I'm so weak
sometimes. I make mistakes all the time.
I'm shortsighted. I'm pessimistic. I'm
whatever. I would I be like, "Thanks for
letting me know, man. You suck. I'm not
talking anymore." No, I'd be like, "Hey,
Tom, man, don't be so hard on yourself.
What are you doing? Like, it's okay.
You're human. We're all human. It's
okay. Like, you're human, you know?
Okay. Well, if there was someone in your
life
who who talked to Lisa the way you talk
to yourself in your brain, you'd beat
the [ __ ] out of that guy. Like, I know
that's true of me. Like, if someone if
someone I we're like, you know, we're
not best friends, you and I, but we're
friends. Like you if if someone talked
to you the way I talked to myself in my
head, I would be like, "Dude, you're out
of order." Like, "How dare like you
don't know Tom? You don't know
everything he's been through. You don't
have a right to judge." Cuz I I am
brutal to myself. Like I get up in the
morning, I'm like, "What are you doing,
dude? Get out of bed. What are you Get
it going." And like get to the gym. Like
you're weak. You're getting old. What do
you do? Come on. Like all I do is beat
myself up. And so, you know, again, like
I I think that's all the framing. That's
all the the like we've been taught to
criticize ourselves constantly. We've
been taught to take our eye off the
plot. Like you and Lisa, the thing
you're doing well is you you don't lose
the plot. Like I can tell that about
you. It's obvious talking to either of
you about the other. Like the two of
you, you try to not lose the plot. Like
you're paying attention to the thing
you're building. You have this shared
goal and shared purpose. And you know
what?
We are playing a game. you can't win to
the utmost. Like we're just playing this
game like we're all going to die. We're
all going to lose each other. Everything
we built will crumble a hundred years
from now. Everyone who loves you will be
gone and everyone you love will be gone.
>> But it's like our immediate response to
that is why I'm not going to think about
that. That's terrible. That's a why that
should be the most liberating freeing
thought in the world. It should be the
most important thought in the world. And
[snorts] I guess that that's why I keep
you know you have a divorce lawyer
around talk about relationships and I
start talking about death. But I think
it's partly because like yeah it's
endings like divorce is an ending you
know death is an ending and and I I
think we need to look harder at endings
and it will the path of staying together
will be clearer to us because we won't
lose the plot so easily.
>> Yeah I uh I think you're very right
about that. Reminding yourself how
transient things are I think is
incredibly important. There's something
very interesting though about the way
that you approach the world. So
obviously going through all of that and
hearing how thoughtful you've been about
recognizing the ending of something,
grabbing a hold of gratitude,
recognizing [snorts] what a problem that
is. And I've also heard you say that you
put a ton of time and energy into being
great at what you do and you refer to
yourself as a weapon. Mhm.
>> And the fascinating thing about spending
as much time researching you as I have
is that you can swing all the way from I
mean what you've just done here
obviously very emotive. I've heard you
talk about
>> your dog. Yeah. I mean it's all
incredibly beautiful. But then I've also
heard you talk about being a weapon and
it's like hey
>> I am here to do a job and I'm going to
do it to the best of my ability.
>> Yeah. it what is the the container in
which yeah all of those I won't say
competing but those different facets of
your personality yeah live inside it's
not it's not living inside of a strong
sense of there's a god or religion but
it's living inside of something
>> yeah I don't you know I think I have a
moral sense but I think you know there's
a there's a line from uh Rissa
Sardonicus that I used to have hanging
on the wall of my office and it goes to
that weapon inside of me. And it is um I
used to have it memorized. I think I
probably still do. He said that I I have
resigned myself to temporary complicity
with evil in order to accomplish certain
strategic objectives for people whose
for people whose safety is more
important than my need to maintain moral
purity.
>> Damn.
So, I realize I have a set of skills.
Like, I'm I'm a very good advocate. I'm
a very good weapon. Like, I can use
words to make you cry. I can use words
to make you scared. I can use words to
make you feel safe. Like, I'm good at
words because that's the weapon. That's
all I have was words and gestures and
you know, like whatever. I'm a good
storyteller. My job is full contact
storytelling. Like it's hard enough to
be a good storyteller, but be a good
storyteller while someone else is trying
to stop you from telling the story and
tell the opposite story. Like then
you've got to be really good, you know?
And and I don't know why. I have a
god-given talent at this. Like I'm good
at it. I'm really good in a courtroom.
I'm good at this very strange amalgam of
skills you have to have to
extemporaneously speak in this very
specific kind of way. Plus, I'm really
good. I've memorized the rules of
evidence. like I'm, you know, I have a
very weird specific skill set. [snorts]
That to me,
I feel like I want to be of service
while I'm here. I don't know. It's this
I feel the most fulfilled when I'm of
service. Like I whether it was as a
hospice volunteer.
>> How old were you when you were doing
that?
>> 18.
>> I had just gotten out of So I I there's
a little context there. my when I was
about
six years old maybe five years old um my
mom was first diagnosed with leomio
saroma which is a soft tissue saroma
it's very rare [snorts] it's a cancer
that does not typically become
metastatic in any way but it grows very
rapidly so the first time that she was
diagnosed with it when they found it it
was the size of a dime and when they
took it out three weeks later it was the
size of a grapefruit fruit. Whoa. Yeah.
And it doesn't cause [snorts] necrosis
when it touches tissue, but the way uh
Murray Brennan, who was uh one of she he
did about four of her surgeries at Sloan
Catering, [snorts] great surgeon, great
guy. Um the way he described it to us is
he said it's kind of like a cow standing
in the middle of the road. Like at first
everybody can drive around it, but it
gets bigger and bigger and bigger and it
starts to take up the whole highway. and
now everything's crashing into it. So
that's what would happen. Like so when I
was about five or six years old, I
remember my mom crying in the bathroom
and I didn't know what was going on. And
my sister who six years older than me
told me that mom is sick and that she's
going to die. And I didn't exactly know
what that meant. I had a gerbil named
Cutie and he had died. And I knew that
that meant like, okay, you're not going
to see him anymore. [snorts] But I
didn't really know what that like meant,
the gravity of it. And uh and they they
told her and they told us that she had
six months to live.
>> Oh.
>> And then um they went in to do the
surgery and the tumor had encapsulated
meaning white blood cells had surrounded
it and encapsulated so it didn't grow
very much and they were able to take it
grew grew but it hadn't impeded
anything. They took it out she was fine.
[snorts] But at the age of six I was
told your mom's got six months to live.
Now I didn't really understand what that
meant. But when it happened again when I
was 11 and now they said, "Okay, she's
got six months to live."
>> And this time it had impinged on um her
uterus and her ovaries. So they had to
take her uterus and her ovaries.
>> Well, over the course of the next 15
years or so, my mom ended up having like
five or so. Every five or six months,
they would tell us she had six months to
live.
>> And they would do a surgery and they
would take another piece of her. They
would take part of her bowel. they would
take part of her and it it took her away
from us because she was just constantly
recovering from surgery, recovering from
chemo. Like it was just death was just
ever present. It was always there.
And so I think that I just I was just
very I couldn't deny
death. It was just always there. And so
I wasn't, you know, I wasn't I wanted to
move towards it. I didn't want to run
from it. Like I was afraid of spiders. I
didn't like spiders. And by the way,
it's really if you're going to be afraid
of something, be afraid of spiders
rather than death because everyone you
know is going to die and you're going to
die. But spiders you could kind of stay
away from if you wanted to, you know.
[snorts] But I was the opposite. I was
weird. I was like, "Okay, I'm afraid of
spiders. I'm going to get a tarantula
and I'm going to put it in a glass tank
right next to my bed. So, the first
thing that happens every morning when I
wake up is I have to look at a giant
spider. And it worked. I'm not afraid of
spiders anymore. Like if I see a house
spider now, it like crawls in my hand. I
put it on a plant or whatever.
>> Wow. [snorts]
>> I wanted to do the same thing with
death. I was like, I'm just going to be
around this. I want to be around this. I
want to not be afraid of it. And I
started doing it. And I found it very
life affirming to the point where then I
did what's called vigil volunteering
which is when when people don't have
family and they're in like a nursing
home or a facility and they're
imminently dying meaning they're like
unconscious cuz you know we have this
insane because we we don't spend any
time with people that are dying. We have
this bizarre Hollywood version of death
where it's like I loved you all and
[snorts] then we like fall you know or
like we just like fall asleep and like
death does not look like that.
like people, you know, like it's it's
and and when you talk to people who have
a dying family member on hospice, like
they're like, "Oh, it's not that they
died. He died without dignity." And it's
like, "No, he died the way people die."
>> Like you, they shut down. The machine
doesn't know to stop. It keeps going.
Yeah. It's rough. Oh, ple
>> my mom like I remember thinking like,
"Oh god, is this how I'm going to
remember her?" like 70 pounds yellow and
curled up like an insect
>> unconscious and breathing in this like
horrifying like something out of a
movie. Thank god the answer is no. Like
that's not how your memory is kind. Like
that was a moment. It was hard to watch.
It was hard to be there for. But she
died the way people die. Like people
with cancer die that way,
>> you know, and that's like that's natural
and you would know it if you had the
opportunity to be around it. And I I had
a tremendous comfort in knowing like, oh
yeah, this is how it goes. Like I know
what an aagonal breath sounds like, but
[snorts] when you're a vigil volunteer,
like I would just go and just sit in a
room, usually the overnight shift, and I
would sit there for five, six hours, and
I would read Winnie the Pooh out loud to
like a person who's probably unconscious
and can't hear me, but it was just
something to read. It was something like
I didn't want to read something
religious because I don't know this
person's religious feelings. I would
read like some nice story, something
warm, something and like Winnie the Pooh
felt like that to me. [snorts] And I
just, you know, being around that so
much, I don't know. It it it it really
changed the way that I view things, but
I just never I don't know. I I wanted to
be of service. I continue to want to be
of service. I have a skill set. I
figured it out in high school when I
joined the debate team that I'm good at
debate. And um I thought, how can I use
what I do to be of service? It was never
for I'm very glad I've been blessed
financially and I do really well. Um but
like I just love the game. Like I love
what I do. I'm really good at it. I love
being really good at something and I
love using my skills to the service of
people. At some point in the not too
distant future, I will probably stop
representing private clients and we'll
probably start working for like a
nonprofit agency just doing like
domestic violence cases proono or
something like that. like I've already
taken some steps to to to set that up
for myself because I think I'll always
enjoy being in a courtroom and doing the
thing, but I'm increasingly enjoying,
you know, talking about big things with
people. And I've been very blessed to
have this like I didn't seek this out.
Like I really didn't. I sort of stumbled
into this this whole media presence
thing. Like I never thought at 50
>> that all of a sudden I'd be like walking
down the street and people like, "Oh my
god, you're that guy." like and it's
like I've become something of people to
take a selfie with me. I'm like there's
way better use of your phone than that.
But you know it's it's a really I think
there is something I I didn't get it cuz
I I'm me so I don't really see me as
clearly but there's something I'm saying
that is resonating with a very large
audience
and it's making them feel something or
see something that apparently has value
to them. And so I'm I'm doing that and
I'm enjoying that. And I think that
that's that's what hospice work was for
me, too. It was like, yeah, this makes
me feel something. This makes me feel
like I'm of service. I'm serving some
purpose. That's a bigger purpose.
I don't know. It's a feeling.
[snorts]
>> Speaking of things that have value, um,
negotiating,
>> it's a very tricky thing to do. Well,
>> yeah.
>> It's 10x trickier in a relationship
because people feel almost icky about
it.
>> Yeah.
>> How do you help people approach
negotiating when you're talking about
things like how frequently we have sex,
what position we have sex in, who picks
up the laundry?
>> So, I I there's a a a great I think
point of entry, and that is
how you ask the question very often
dictates the answer.
So, there's an old joke. I don't know if
you've ever heard that two priests are
talking to each other. One's a smoker
and the other one's not. And uh they're
debating over smoking, whether like you
should smoke while you're praying. So,
they both they can't agree. They can't
find a chord. So, they both agree
they're going to write the pope. So,
they write the pope. A couple of weeks
later, they meet up in the middle of the
square and one of them says, "I heard
back. I was right." And goes, "No, no,
no. I heard back. I was right." He what
do you mean? He says, 'Well, I wrote the
pope and I said, 'Hey, is it okay to
smoke while you're praying?' And he was
like, 'No, when you're praying, like
pray, pay attention to what you're
doing. He's like, 'Well, I wrote him and
I said, 'Is it okay to pray while I'm
smoking?' And he said, yeah, you should
pray all the time. Like, pray whenever
you can. So, I say that to say how you
ask the question very often dictates the
answer. So, the question of why aren't
we having sex as much as we used to,
you're off to a bad start. You're off to
a terrible start. like this is not a
negotiation. This is a invitation to
feel attacked and to be defensive.
That's what that is. Because it the way
you've parsed this is you're failing me.
You're getting it wrong. [snorts]
Whereas if the entry point was
I love feeling close to you. Like one of
my favorite things about remember you
know what I was thinking about
yesterday?
You remember when we were first dating
and we went to that we we got tickets to
that thing and we were staying in that
hotel and we never ended up going to the
thing because we were just rolling
around in the bed in the hotel. You
remember that? Like it now. Okay. Who's
not going to be like oh yeah I remember
that. That was like I was so like you
know what like we haven't done that in
so long. Like I love I love our like
physical connection. Like I love it man.
Like it's so I don't know the last time
I told you that but man it's so good.
I'm so glad for dude now we have primed
the pump man. We are ready like now
we're going to have because what's this
about? I want to be good at this. I I
want to feel I want to be good at being
your and I want to want only you. We
made an agreement that we're going to
just we're going to be each other's
sexual outlet. I want to meet your needs
sexually and I want you to meet mine. I
don't want to like [snorts]
[sighs]
I believe
and I I know a little of your marriage.
I think you have sex with as many women
as you want to.
>> That's a cool way to say it.
>> I think you do. I think you have sex
with as I think you and Andrew Tate or
anybody else in the man have sex with as
many women as you want to. And I think
that's awesome. Like I think you have
sex with as many women as you want to
and it happens to be one. Like I murder
and rape as many people as I want to.
>> Which is zero cuz I'm not a monster.
Right. But it's I don't not do it
because it's illegal
>> and I'm afraid I'll get in trouble. No,
I don't I don't do it because like So I
think ideally
you would want Lisa to only have sex
with you because she finds sex with you
deeply satisfying.
When you've eaten, you're not hungry
anymore. So you she feels like you guys
have sufficient quality and quantity of
sex for her needs to be met. That you
believe trading variety for depth is
good. and that you guys feel you've
found a real intimate connection
together that you couldn't easily re you
know like like reproduce with someone
else like not you know we we'd get I'd
get in trouble or like well you know
then we might divorce like if the only
thing keeping you from sleeping with
other women is the threat of Lisa
divorcing you like don't don't do her
any favors man like I think at the end
of the day like you guys sleep with as
many people as you want to and it's one
and that's great that's a beautiful
beautiful thing but I'm willing to bet
that part of that is that you guys have
open connection about that communication
about that you ask questions of like hey
if something has changed if we're having
more sex less sex we're having different
kind of sex I'm having but again in the
negotiation of it so the way that you
because the question was about
negotiation
the the example I always give is I I
don't believe in like I believe in
radical honesty but I also believe that
like sometimes times it's good to like
take a take a different route somewhere
like behavior modification like I
manipulate people's emotional state for
a living that's my job like courtroom
lawyer that's my job I want the judge to
feel sympathetic towards my client and
dislike the other side I want the other
side to feel unsafe I want them to feel
scared I want my client to feel safe and
protected I want I want the court
reporter to like me because then when we
call a recess and testimony and they go
in the back with the judge they're going
to go Jim's really good he's a nice He's
a good lawyer, you know. So, I want I'm
want to work everyone's emotional state
in that room. So, this is my job is to
like manipulate. That's what I mean when
I say I'm a weapon. Like, I'm a weapon.
My job is to manipulate everyone's
emotional state. Now, I can use my
powers for good. I can use my powers for
evil. But [snorts]
why not leverage some of that in your
own relationship? So, you know, if you
say to your like [snorts] you have a a a
sexual desire that you're having, I
don't know, it's like not in your
current menu of things you and your
spouse do, but it's something you want
to try. Something you want to do.
You could say like, "How about we never
do D?" Okay, now it's defensive
position. This is not a good way to
start. You could go without, like, I
don't want to say it out loud. It's a
little, you know, I feel a little weird
about it. You go elsewhere. you go like,
"Hey, you know, like some of the, you
know, like with your wife, you know,
there's like some thing like it's kind
of hard to do certain things with your
wife and then look her in the eye, you
know, so okay, like maybe that's the
approach you take." Or maybe you take, I
think, the very healthy approach of
like, "Hey, who we are in bed and who we
are in life doesn't have to be the same
thing." Like I I don't know a lot of
women
that if you sent them a text that said,
you know, you know, I respect you,
right?
>> [snorts]
>> you know, because in about 20 minutes
when I get home, it's going to seem like
I don't just for a little while. Like I
think most women would be like, "Okay,
I'm in. That'll be interesting." Like,
let's see what that turns into, you
know? So, like I think if your wife said
to you like, "Listen, I love you and
you're smart and you're great and we're
building a life together and all that,
but like I kind of am going to objectify
you right now. Like, I just I think
you're really hot and I want to have sex
with you." Like, dude, I'd be thrilled.
I'd be like, "Okay, this sounds great.
Objectify me. I'm sick of being in love
for my brain." Like, so, okay, that's
all really good stuff. So again, what's
the entry point? Well, be creative. Like
the and lie a little bit, but but again
with with good reason like and the
[snorts] example I always give is
say to your wife if you said to your
wife like there's something you want to
try and you said, "Oh my god, the dream
I had a dream about you last." I can't
even look you in the eye. The dream I
had about you last night. Like what's
she gonna What was it? Right.
>> What did you say? No, I can't I honestly
I can't I can't even I can't even say it
out loud. No. What was it? I don't know
if it's like that I ate too much dairy.
I don't know before I went to sleep.
Like I don't know what it was. I just it
was like And then you say the thing
you've been thinking you might want to
do and she's going to probably react one
of two ways. She's either going to go is
that like something you want to try and
then you go I don't know like I didn't
think it was but maybe it is like
something in my brain brought it up and
it was kind of hot. Like okay and maybe
now we're having a dialogue about this.
That's the negotiation.
Or she's going to go oh I would not be
into that. you go, you know, I know like
it's so like uh like I don't know what
it was like that that was I mean it's
not that big of a deal to me or at least
we're having a conversation now about
it. But again, like the entry point is
from a place of connection. It's from a
place of intrigue. It's from a place of
storytelling. Like I'm hooking you.
That's the cheese in that trap, right?
But like again, all for the benefit of
this relationship. like all for the
benefit because there's no downside to
that. Like to share with your partner
what you want and what you desire and
what you're feeling. Like in a perfect
world, you're absolutely right. You just
be able to say like, you know, babe,
I've been having this thought lately.
And by the way, if you did what I said
earlier where you built into your
relationship these these periodic
check-ins, you know, and again, like I I
don't like the idea because I think
there is like a measure what matters
thing and people that can reduce things
to metrics and statistics a little too
much. Like I've seen people like
quantifi like I represent a lot of quant
people and it's almost like they're on
the spectrum and they feel like they
have to everything has to be measured
and everything. Like Brian Johnson, God
bless you buddy, but that life looks
miserable to me. Like I honestly like
I'm not eating that much kale and I'm
not like he eats so many pills he's
full. Like you can keep it, man. Like
it's okay. Like I said, I'll die sooner.
I'm good. Like I'll die sooner. That's
fine.
But again, like what what was the
purpose of all of this? The purpose is
like, hey, we want to be each other's
like vibrant sexual partner. We want to
have a good time. Why wouldn't you build
into your relationship
a practice that, by the way, I think
could be very fun and romantic? Like
wouldn't you want to hear if if once a
week one of the questions we asked is
what were three times this week you
wanted to like have sex with me like I
was doing something. What was it? Like
for men it's easy. Oh, you were like
bending over picking up that thing, you
know? Like what? But oh, you were
wearing that shirt and when you like
leaned over I could see a little
cleavage. Like I'm sure there's some
little thing which by the way she might
not even know because remember we're
different creatures.
Like I bet
for me, right, my answer would be
something very visual about her form,
you [clears throat] know, like like my
partner would be like, "Oh, it's her
form." Like you like leaned over, you
bent over, I saw your cleaver, whatever
it might be. It might be some very
visual. I'm very visual or maybe
auditory. Like it would be something
like that. women a lot of times it might
be that but it might also be like oh
when you asked me about this or when you
like you know you were really tired. I
had a I had a a woman who
we were talking about like what this is
a romantic partner of mine and I had
said to her um we were talking about
like what what's something you find sexy
about each other and mine were like so
obvious like they were just typical
things you know and she was like oh
there's this way there's a little bit of
hair of yours that sticks up sometimes
and it sticks up because when you've
been stressed you like lean this way and
I can tell you had like a really
stressful day at work because this
little bit of hair is stuck up because
you've you've been like rubbing your
temple. And she's like, and I think it's
really sexy because it's like a it shows
me that you were like really into it
today and really like working and I feel
like I want to like a I want some of
that intensity and also that like I want
to like comfort and soothe you.
>> Yeah. I do. You know how much time I've
spent trying to get abs?
Do you know honestly like you know how
many grilled chicken breasts I've eaten
>> and broccoli? It's insane how much I've
worked on my obliques
>> and it turns out
like this like I could do that just
right before I get home. Like I could
just be out all day having fun and I
just have to do that like but it turns
out it would never have occurred to me
that that's a thing. But again, you know
how fun that conversation is? What a
pleasure that conversation is. What a
privilege to get to hear that. What a
lovely thing to feel so seen and so
loved and to know that there's something
about me that I didn't even know this
person finds attractive and likes and
that deepens our connection. And just
having that conversation is fun. And by
the way, I'm not afraid either to like
do the shadow side of that. Like what's
some things I did this week that made
you not want to have sex with me?
>> Like was there a moment? And again, make
it a praise sandwich so it's fun. Like
what did I do right? What did I get
wrong? What did I do? What could I do
better? Instead of saying what did I get
wrong, what could I do better? You know,
but what was a moment that made you less
inclined to me? What was something I did
that like made you turn turned you off
this week? I would want to know,
wouldn't you?
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. So, why not build that? And by the
way, you don't think women want to have
this conversation like, you know, men's
magazines don't have the like, you know,
take this quiz to see what your
relationship? That's women's magazines.
Like, that's women's. If you think
saying to your female partner, you know,
hey, like let's let's let's write each
other a list of 50 things we love each
other and let's it's due next week. You
don't think she's going to love that
assignment? Even if she doesn't like
doing it herself, she can't wait to hear
yours. So, she'll do the homework so she
gets to hear yours. Like, and what does
it cost? Nothing. What does it really
take? Not much. It's not a math quiz.
You're answering a question that like
you actually know that you don't have to
study for that test. Like what are some
things you like about this person? Like
we could we could do this right now.
Maybe not the sex part, but we could do
this right now. Like Tom, what are what
are I'll tell you three things I like
about you. You could tell me three
things you like about me. That's nice.
That's fun. Why wouldn't we do that?
Like you know, if we're really intimate
and we we're friends, you know, Tom,
what are some things you think I could
work on? Like we've been talking for a
while now. Like what are some things you
think I I I might not see like the
things I've said to you like that or the
work of mine you've seen. What are some
things? What do you think are some of my
blind spots? What an easy thing. What a
free But again, there'll never be a
commercial for this. You can't sell it.
It's got no price tag on it. Like you
can't scale it. You can't make an app
for it. I mean, I'm sure you could find
a way to make it an app. The check-in,
you know, you call it I don't know. I
just gave away the idea. There you go.
like make a little weekly app that sends
a reminder and you have to send each
other. Cool. Okay, somebody go do that.
Somebody go do that. Like, but the
reason we're not sending this message is
that again like we wouldn't be focused
on all this other [ __ ] We wouldn't be
chasing all these red herrings all day
if we went back to this core important
thing and the simplicity of it. Because
again, I I said it to Lisa in our
conversation.
The four words,
you're my favorite person. Like that's
the starting point of it. That should be
the ending part, the ending point of it.
Like I hope 50 years, whatever many
years from now, that it's the last time
that you're with your wife, it's the
last conversation the two of you have. I
really hope you get to say to each
other, you're my favorite person at at
make it five words at that point. You're
still my favorite person.
>> What a gift. What a gift. What a worthy
pursuit. What other goal do you have
that's as important as that one?
>> That's awesome, man. This has been
incredible. Where can people engage with
you?
>> If you're walking around New York City
and West Chelsea, you'll probably bump
into me because I never leave like a
threeb block radius. Um, my gym is
there, my jiu-jitsu school is there, my
office and my apartment are all within
the same radius. So, if you hang out by
the vessel, you'll see me. Um, you can
find me on Instagram at NYC Divorce
Lawyer. You can find my firm at
nycdivorces.com.
You can find my YouTube channel at
stextonshow.com.
[snorts] Um, and yeah, that's Oh, you
can find my book on Amazon or wherever
fine books are sold. Uh, it's been
translated now into Bulgarian,
Ukrainian, Polish. There's a UK edition,
so apparently apparently the whole
world's trying to figure it all out. And
you can listen to it on Audible. You can
go on Audible or Google Play or any of
those. If you want to hear me talk for
eight and a half hours. Um that's it's a
long that's a lot of sexton. Um but
yeah, any of those places.
>> I love it. All right, guys. If you
haven't already, be sure to subscribe.
And until next time, my friends, be
legendary. Take care. Peace. If you like
this conversation, check out this
episode to learn more.
>> Yes, I do believe women are delusional
with what they want. Women have been
hijacked with liberal values. Even women
[music]
are now using women as sexual objects.
We defined hypergamy by can I manipulate
you? Yes or no? Yes, of course. I would
love it if you can just get as fat as
you want.