Kind: captions
Language: en
When you say to someone, "Okay, I'm I'm
signing up for you." Like, I'm there's 8
billion options and I'm picking you,
that's big.
>> Do you think there is still wisdom in
getting married? We're talking about a
technology that fails catastrophically
56% of the time. Staying together for
the kids even though you hate each other
or staying together because you don't
want to give away half your things is
also a failure. So, what's that? Another
10%.
>> Okay. Now, we have a technology that 76%
of the time fails. Marriage is a legal
status. It's a contract between you and
the government essentially. Like you and
Lisa have a prenup.
>> No,
>> no, no, you do. You do. It was written
by the government. It's written by the
government and they can change it
without your permission. The truth is
all marriages end. And when they end,
>> you've called love an economy.
>> Yeah.
>> In the way that people are exchanging
value.
>> Yeah. And I'm curious, what is it
exactly that people are trading whether
they realize it or not?
>> It's very funny because people find the
term economy, describing love as an
economy or relationship economy like a
little profane. And I love it.
>> Yeah. I don't I don't mean it in a
negative way. I mean it in like a really
honorable way that it's about a sharing
of value, like a trading of value. And
we're very much now in the zeitgeist of
talking about equality,
you know, and that like women are
capable of working, men are capable of
working, men should be caregiving with
children, women should be caregiving
with children. No one should be doing
100% of the labor in any sphere of
relationship. I understand that argument
and I think it's because there was an
imbalance for so long, you know, where
it was like women are exp. This is what
you do women. You are at home with
babies and that's your job. men, you get
out there and, you know, put the women
and children in bed and go out looking
for dinner. Like, this is your job, you
know. And there was no option other than
that. And now we kind of did what we do,
which is, you know, we treat dandruff
with decapitation. Like we went so far
in the other direction that now we said,
"No, everyone has to do everything. And
how dare anyone suggest that, you know,
you do my laundry or how dare you
suggest that the man has to do this?"
And so for me, an economy, you know, how
many apples is worth how many apples is
not an interesting question. One, that's
the answer. One apple's worth one apple.
>> How many apples is worth how many
coconuts? Now we're having an
interesting conversation because this
comes down to what value do you put on
apples and what value do you put on
coconuts? Like we have to figure out how
many of these is how many of these in
relationship.
I've seen a lot of unsuccessful
relationships in my line of work and a
lot of them there's this tally being
kept like unspoken or spoken
[clears throat] of look at what I'm
doing for you you know and look at how
hard I have it and look at how diff and
what's interesting to me is we're also
now as a society particularly on social
media where like girls versus boys
content is huge like if we want to go
viral like let's just say some real
misogynist stuff or some real misan
dangerous stuff and we're just going to
we'll get millions of views on that one
because in this war of girls versus
boys, everybody loves being like my
team's winning, you know, but we all
know that like a world in which, you
know, men are flailing is not a world
where women are thriving and vice versa.
So, I like to to really look at in
relationship
we're agreeing to be together and to
both bring value to this, right? If
there was no value, we just wouldn't we
wouldn't connect. We would just keep
moving. So, when you say to someone,
okay, I'm I'm signing up for you. Like,
I'm there's 8 billion options and I'm
picking you. That's big. Like, that's a
big big commitment. I can't really think
of any commitment in life that's bigger
than that other than maybe having kids,
right? It's comparable.
But really, what you're saying is you
you give me something like you give me
something and and I give you something.
And ideally, I it doesn't feel like much
of a sacrifice to give. If anything, I
take pleasure in the giving and you take
pleasure in the giving. But we've made
this idea that, you know, we have to
give the same things. And if you look at
the greatest partnerships in the world,
like look at Steve Jobs, Steve Waznak,
like without Steve Jobs, you know, Steve
Waznak's just an engineer, you know, and
without Steve Waznak, you know, Steve
Jobs just has a lot of interesting
ideas, but he doesn't know how to code.
He doesn't not an engineer.
>> Together, they changed the world. And so
what they both did is that which one's
more important? I I don't think you can
say like and and why would you want to
know like they're they're both together.
They made the music. Like they made the
thing perfectly. The chemistry of the
two of them made the thing and changed
the world. See also Keith Richards and
MC Jagger. See which one's more
important? I I don't know that you could
say like because together they So that's
what I mean when I say it's an economy
is that you know we're bringing to the
table different things. maybe some of
the same things, but the question is
not, you know, how hard would it be to
replace what you do? Like, well, how
many women would sleep with me and be
nice to me? Well, how many men would pay
all my bills? You know, we could do that
math probably. Like, if you're young and
gorgeous, there's probably a lot of men
that pay your bills. If you're rich and
successful, there's probably a lot of
women that would sleep with you because
they want. But the question really
becomes like, okay, long-term,
short-term, any
if both people in this equation,
neither one feels shortchanged, neither
one feels like they're being taken
advantage of, kind of whose business is
it, right? Like the economy of a
relationship is not like counting the
totals all the time and creating an
Excel worksheet of what do we owe each
other? It's more is this working? Do we
both feel like we're giving and
receiving value? Do either of us feel
deeply taken advantage of? And I think
that that is an economy and and that's
what it we need to look at.
>> So very much agree. The thing that I
find interesting about the economy,
never thought I would think about it,
never thought I'd be drawn into it and
now the vast majority of my content
revolves around like traditional
economies.
>> What I find so powerful about it is that
it is cause and effect at its core. So
it is how humans work and you can just
see the nature of humans manifest in how
economies work, how to incentivize
people,
>> what they'll say yes to, what they'll
say no to, how they price themselves,
how they price the things they want, all
of that stuff.
>> So in a relationship, I think it's
equally as it's not a metaphor. It's
literally just okay, this there are
things that you make me feel I presume
is a big part of what you mean by this.
>> So how do we ground it? So, if somebody
right now is getting into a
relationship, maybe they've had failures
in the past or maybe they're brand new,
but either way, they need a way to
ground around what this exchange is. So,
if we were going to strip away the
metaphor, like is it like when my wife
and I founded a company together, we
expressly stated,
>> uh, these are my roles, these are your
roles, this is how we will handle
conflict. There's only two of us, so
it's one v one in terms of a vote. We
can hit a stalemate. How do we deal with
stalemates? We talk through all of it
with very concrete this is what happens
when we collide.
>> How should couples in your experience
>> encounter that moment of agreeing like
>> beyond the love of this all what is the
exchange in a relationship? uh the great
presupposition in there or the unspoken
piece that I think you have to start
with is
we don't even get close to that analysis
in modern society for most couples
>> because wing it emotionally or
>> it would be unour if you if you're a
friend of mine and you've been in a
relationship for a period of time and
you say we're getting married if I said
really why
that would be an incredibly rude rude
question. Why? Why is that a rude
question? Like, we're talking about a
technology that fails catastrophically
56% of the time. Meaning, it it results
in divorce. That's a catastrophic
failure. I'm going to say staying
together for the kids even though you
hate each other. Or staying together
because you don't want to give away half
your things is also a failure. So,
what's that? Another 10%.
>> I'm being nice. 20%
>> probably. Now, we have a technology
>> that 76% of the time fails. Okay. To me,
asking why is a really good question,
right? Because there are good answers,
by the way. There are good answers. My
religion, uh, my religion dictates it.
Um, my parents, it would really
disappoint my parents if I didn't.
There's tax benefits to getting married.
Um, there there's there's lots of
answers, but we don't even start by
asking the question. It's just assumed
this is a thing we're going to do.
>> And largely, it's because it's what we
do. like it's a it's a tradition and you
know I've said before that tradition is
in one way the wisdom of the people that
came before us and the things that
they've experienced and what we can
learn from it and in another way
tradition is peer pressure exerted by
dead people and and we're just
succumbing to it like oh well my you
know grandparents got married my parents
got married my great-grandparents got
married my great okay your great
great-grandmother used a buggy whip do
you use a buggy whip like your great
great-grandmother did not have the sum
total
of all human wisdom accessible to her in
an instant through the sky, godlike
knowledge in her hands. Why would you
think a technology that made sense for
her is automatically unquestionably
going to work for you, especially when
it has a 56 to 76% failure rate. So
that's a form of of kind of intentional
willful blindness or an ostrich approach
to a real problem, right? So I I think
starting with the question of
you and Lisa when you said okay we're
going to start a business and we sat
down and we said okay we're doing it
this way and it's one of one and these
are our roles. Okay. You're already
starting by saying what are we doing?
>> Like what's the target? What's the
target? What are we trying to do? Like I
think what's the target before you start
shooting is a really good question to
ask. You know because a a a a pro a pro
is someone who hits a target nobody else
can hit. A genius is someone who hits a
target nobody else can see, you know.
And I think fundamentally when people
get married who have the kind of mindset
that you and Lisa have and you you know
how you do anything is how you do
everything. And I think you approach a
lot of problem solving by saying okay
first where are we trying to go? You
know and it doesn't even have to be
precise. It can just be okay what do we
want to feel? You know what's the vibe
we want to create here? Like it doesn't
have to be like scientific. It can be
right. Like I know there's a lot of
people that are super analytical,
suited, super data driven. I'm sitting
across from one of them, I think. But
also, I think there's some gut stuff
that it's like, yeah, we want to be
happy. We want to be connected. We'll
get back to the show in just a second.
But first, if you rely on caffeine to
get through your day, I want you to
listen up. The problem with caffeine and
stimulants in general is they give you a
spike, then you crash hard. I have lived
that cycle. That's why I'm a fan of
ketone IQ. Ketones are your brain's most
efficient energy source. They cross the
bloodb brain barrier and power your
[music] neurons directly. I take half a
dose and it keeps me alert and focused
for hours. I use these when I'm riding
my [music] deep dives very frequently.
Ketone IQ was developed through a $6
million Department of Defense contract
to support elite cognitive performance.
[music] And keto going into ketosis
changed my life a little over a decade
ago. If you're done with the crash and
ready for focus that actually lasts,
visit ketone.com/impact [music]
for 30% off your subscription order or
visit your local Target and get your
first shot free. And now, let's get back
to the show. Just like in business, I
think in in marriage or in a
relationship,
it's this dance between simplicity and
complexity. Like business is complex.
You know, there's so many variables,
economic forces, things beyond your
control, personnel issues. There's so
you could drill down forever. You could
try to read every book that's ever been
written on a business, but you'd fail.
And yet, there's also like a tremendous
amount of simplicity.
>> Identify a need, find a way to meet it,
identify a market, find a way to, you
know, get ahead of it. You know, simple,
simple, simple stuff. Love is the same
thing. What is marriage other than
fundamentally
you're my favorite person?
You're my favorite person of all the
people in the world, you're my favorite
person. Which, by the way, what four
words are more beautiful than that?
Honestly, like to say truthfully to
another person and to have another
person truthfully say to you, "You're my
favorite person." Like, saying it gets
me welled up. It's like, it's such a
lovely thought to to feel that way
sincerely about someone and have someone
feel that way about you. I can't think
of anything warmer and more wonderful
than that. And that's how all of this
kind of starts, right? It's simple, but
then there's a million pounds of
complexity in it and on top of it and
things that are antagonistic to it. And
so if you don't start from a place of
let's identify where it is we're trying
to go, let's start with like the simple
piece of this fundamentally. I want to
be your only person. and you want to be
my only person. Okay. I want to be good
at this. Like, do you want to be good at
this? Okay, good. We both want to be
good at this. How are we going to make
sure we're getting it right? Because the
two biggest mistakes I think people
make, and they're they're somewhat
antagonistic to each other, is
they think that if we get married,
things will change, right? So, you know,
he he parties a lot now, but like if we
get married, he'll stop. you know, you
know, she's like a little immature right
now, but like if we get married, she'll
she'll mature up, you know, and you
know, he drinks a lot now, but if we get
married, he'll grow up a bit. And you
know, say see also when people have
children, they're like, "Oh, you know,
when we have kids, he'll mature." So
thinking that a person will change
because you married is a bad bet. But
similarly, thinking that this person
won't change
>> is also a bad bet because if you're
going to be on a law, you've been
married 24 years, right? 23 together 25.
>> Okay. So, you've changed both of you
tremendously physically, mentally,
emotionally, your points of view, like
it's it changes constantly
and yet you still want to be able to say
like you're my favorite person. I'm your
favorite person and really feel that
connection. So, I think that you have to
have built into this
some technique for and and that's really
what my writing and my speaking is
largely about. It's about let's be
practical about this. Like it's a job
and you want to be good at this job.
Like the job of loving each other, you
know, and I'm not saying it's like, oh,
it's a job. It's a drudgery. No, I mean
like it's a passion. It's a vocation.
It's a you signed on for this. You don't
have to get married. Like you don't have
to get married. We live in a society now
a lot of things that used to require the
team like to work the farm. We needed,
you know, like if you ever I don't know
if you're watching any of those YouTube
channels where it's like baking a pie in
1800.
>> No.
That's my nightmare.
>> Let me tell you something. Like really
do one of these. Do a dive one day on
this and watch like the here's how we
make a full dinner and it's like a whole
day
>> to make a pie.
>> You ever watched alone?
>> Yes.
>> Similar idea.
>> Similar Jesus.
>> Right. And like you know I live in
Manhattan. Like you want a pie? I could
get us six different pies from six
different places delivered within a half
an hour but without getting off my
couch. It's amazing. So we we're no
longer in a position where it's like,
well, I got to work the fields and we
got to have the kids so the kids will
help work the fields and you'll darn the
socks and like the basics of our
day-to-day life are pretty easy to meet
these days. So we don't need marriage in
that way. Now it's like meeting an
emotional need. It's meeting a different
So I think it's a different thing. And
because of that, we we have to have some
check-ins, like some techniques built
into it about, hey, how am I doing at
this job that I didn't have to sign on
for, but I've decided to sign on for and
I want to be good at. Like you and Lisa
started a story 25 years ago.
I've never read a story that I didn't
lose the plot at some point. So, how do
you know when you've lost the plot? Like
how do you know if you don't take a
minute here and there and build that
into the relationship that we're gonna
like have some checks and balances? Like
you just talked about starting a
business together and you're already
talking about okay if there's an impass
how do we deal with it because only two
of us and we each get a vote. You're
already controlling for the inevitable.
We're going to disagree sometime. That's
okay. That's natural. We know that. So
what do we do? Let's now while there's
an abundance of optimism and goodwill.
Let's have a conversation about when we
disagree, what's that going to look
like? And [snorts] what does that really
take, by the way, from a technique
standpoint?
10 minutes a week of like, hey, what
what did I do this week that made you
feel loved? What did I do this week that
I could have done better at loving you?
Because love is, you know, love is a
feeling, but love's a verb, too. Like
love is a thing you do. So, what did I
do? Like, what did I do well this week?
You know, and what does that cost? Costs
nothing. And
>> why do people do it more then?
>> Because I think we've been sold a false
bill of goods. We've been told that
you're just supposed to be good at this.
Like how much time did you spend in
school learning how to multiply
fractions? I learned a bunch of that.
Okay. How much time did you learn like
how to resolve conflict with someone you
love? Like it is impossible to win an
argument with your spouse. It's
impossible.
>> What do you mean?
>> If if you lose, you lost. And if you
win, you lost. Your spouse feels small.
They feel like, you know, they lost.
Like, you really good question at one
point. I probably won't be able to
remember it verbatim, but it was
something like,
>> um, why doesn't
feeling connected feel as good as
winning an argument? And I thought, oo,
>> you can be right or you can be happy.
Said that before.
>> It's really, that idea is really
interesting on two levels. one, from an
evolutionary standpoint, why doesn't it
feel as good? If there's a survival
>> advantage to pair bonding, then why
doesn't being connected to that person
in the moment where you're arguing feel
like a way more interesting goal than
I'm going to prove that I'm right?
>> Yeah.
>> I think we've created an environment
where,
and particularly in recent years, I
think this has gone metastatic. I think
that we've created a world where and a
culture where there is so much
antagonism between the sexes.
>> What do you credit that to?
>> I mean, I know it's easy to say social
media. I think social media has
amplified it. I [snorts] think we want
to be right. We want someone to
understand our pain from our
perspective.
>> True. So, what
>> Yeah. I mean, I don't know that I I feel
like we we you know what is the the
saying when you apply technology to an
efficient system, you magnify the
efficiency. And when you apply it to an
inefficient system, you magnify the
inefficiency. [snorts] I think social
media
>> magnified
>> a tension between the sexes that has
been growing for many years, was present
for many years and we're where largely I
think people don't the tension is I
think people don't know what's expected
of them anymore.
>> It's interesting this so here's my
pitch. You tell me if you think this is
crazy. So this goes back to what you
were saying at the beginning. This is an
exchange of value. I think that value
used to be very clear because there were
the world was dangerous and my promise
to you is I'm going to keep you safe and
provide resources and so women would
pick the guy that was going to actually
be successful at that.
>> Uh and now the world has been safe since
World War II here in the West anyway.
And so people have begun to think that
safety is just a law of nature. And so
it is what it is. And so women are
stepping into the workforce, girl boss,
I don't need no man, like that whole
attitude. So men now are very confused.
All of their impulses to be ambitious,
to be strong, to go after that. They're
not celebrated. They're not rewarded. Uh
women can control fertility. So you can
have sex without getting pregnant. You
can keep yourself safe. You can monetize
your own money. Uh in many ways, women
have an easier time staying focused and
staying on task. And so the modern world
rewards that. Uh, and so all of a sudden
the incentives that we were
evolutionarily primed for, they're no
longer present. That has completely
broken down. And so there really is a
sense of
>> why exactly do I need to be in a
relationship? Guys can get at guys could
in a single day see more nude women
>> than they would have seen in a lifetime
200 years ago.
>> 100%. Yeah.
>> So you've got all of these crazy ass
distortions that go on with the thing
that would normally incentivize a male
to have sex. uh that would normally
incentivize a woman, access to
resources, safety, those things are
blown apart. And so now all of the
compromises that you have to make in a
relationship are like, why am I doing
this exactly?
>> And then
>> you put that together with social media,
being able to compare, being able to
swipe and just find the next person,
just super easy, and you're now playing
in a global market instead of just,
well, there's only six guys here. I got
to the whole village. So, um, that feels
like the deranging element to me is
effectively,
um, were overly safe. Things are overly
easy.
>> I totally agree. I don't think anything
you've I can't argue with anything
you've said there, but
I I do think that like most things, it's
it's a function of overcorrection.
Like I think the old way the structure
that was built on an evolutionary
reality. The world was a hostile
antagonistic place in a very real way.
Like there was a time like I'm not
talking about World War II era. Like it
wasn't like they were like, you know,
you walk out the streets and people were
just attacking and raping each other.
Like I'm talking about like primal
society. Like yes, you're right. Brute
force, violence, all those things. Like
it's a it was a different kind of a
world. Now I'm not saying we don't still
have those same drives. I'm not saying
that there aren't still those same
dangers in some way, but you know,
civilization and its discontents like we
we have figured out like, okay, we're
going to create laws and we're going to
create structures and societies and
civilizations that are going to result
in our suppression of certain drives
that we have for the purpose of the
greater good in civilization. So, I I I
get that.
I think that created
certain boxes that fit a lot of people.
Like a lot of men like to be the
provider and protector and it's a good
fit and a lot of women liked to be
provided for and protected and they
liked to nurture and and there's
something biological to it and there's
something social and personal to it. But
it became a prison. I really think it
became a prison. It became a prison
where that is all you're allowed to do.
Like my mother was, you know, a a
product of her generation. She was the
smartest math student in her public
school in Brooklyn. And they said,
"That's so great. You can be a nurse or
you can be a teacher."
>> Yeah.
>> And she said, "Well, why, you know, I
could be a doctor. Like, I I have the
absolute best math and science scores."
And they went, "Right, sure. That's
cute. You can be a nurse or you can be a
teacher. Those are your two options. And
then you'll be a wife and you'll be a
mother. Like, because that's what you
have. Those are your options. That's it.
You know, and and I'm of a generation,
I'm a bit older than you. I'm of a
generation that like you got to be Clint
Eastwood or Richard Simmons. Those were
your two choices. Like those were your
two choices. Like growing up, you were
either the stoic like hard guy who or
you were gay. You were like a feat. You
were And it really the the truth is
human emotional complexity like that's
not how it works. Like we all have, you
know, proclivities. We all have
different drives in us. But, you know,
there's a lot of men that are deeply
emotional and sensitive and poetic and
have like a lot of feminine, if you want
to call it that, traits. And there's a
lot of women that have tremendous
masculine energy, if you want to call it
that, or aggressive and good per. So,
the idea that like, but again, what did
we then do? We then said, okay, so
anything that says it's good that men
are strong willed and capable and
doineering and dominant and aggressive
is bad. And anything that says that
women are submissive and nurturing is
bad because you're trying to push people
in these boxes when in fact all we're
doing is like observing reality.
>> But we're making it a prison. We're
making it way too tight by saying it has
to be. So it was it has to be prison or
it has to be no prison. It has to be
this post-modern existential everything
is class struggle. Everything is right.
And so, you know, again, we we love this
as a culture, this overcorrection. We've
done it for a long time. But then add
the amplifier of social media. Add what
you just said, which is I will now not
only do I get to see more women in a day
than any man before me in my lineage saw
in a year or in their lifetime.
Women get to talk to
more women than they've ever talked to
in their whole lives. If you're
scrolling your Instagram feed, you're
listening to men and to women. And by
the way, the algorithm makes it even
more fun because now we know what's
going to infuriate you. And we know
what's going to like, you know, get you
like excited and and and behind it. So,
we're just start to feed that to people
again because we want your attention.
And it's an attention economy. It's
enragement engagement. Like, I get it.
But it's created this world where none
of it's really about nurturing something
in any of us. None of it's really about
the broader societal thread. Like what
is our common dream anymore? Like the
the thought that it's become
controversial to say I love America.
I I'm an American. I love America. By
the way, saying you love America but
seeming to hate Americans doesn't make a
lot of sense to me either because all
America is just a bunch of Americans
like e pluribus unum you know on our
money like you know from many one like
the the plurabus part's easy the plurus
part you just get a bunch of dissimilar
elements and put them in a room like the
unum part's [clears throat] the hard
part like how do you take all of these
different people from different
religions different cultures different
places different capabilities different
constitutions and we have this thing in
common. Well, we it used to be a thing.
We all stood up when the flag, you know,
got raised or we all that's gone now.
It's actually almost profane to say,
"Oh, I I love America." If you say, "I
love America," you're you're
automatically presumed to be right-wing.
You're automatically presumed to be You
couldn't possibly be a progressive
leftist, which by the way, I I lean more
progressive left politically, but I I
still think like there is value in these
common threads. We lost that. And then
to say, well, we lost our our touch
point, our our our our, you know, our
north star, our Rosetta Stone, like the
thing that made all of it make sense. We
lost that and we're wondering why we're
all wandering around like the Smurfs in
the woods without Papa Smurf. Like, I
don't think it's that hard to figure out
that that's what happened. And the same
thing happens in relationships because
relationships are just a function. You
know, again, it was always world,
country, culture, community, family,
couple.
And these these building blocks like
this basic one became very
unfashionable. And that's why in the
70s,
your temporary happiness
became much more important than the
broad social thread, the the thing
you're trying to do. Like when you and
Lisa started a business and when you
started the business of your family life
together, your couple, your coupling
together, like you decided to tr like
Jaco Willene would say, you you
discipline, you trade what you want now
for what you want most.
>> So you both said, "Hey, what I want most
is deep connection to another person for
a lifetime."
And so I'm going to trade the shiny
things. I'm going to trade autonomy. I'm
gonna trade maybe some of the pleasure
of solitude sometime. I'm gonna trade
that because I think this other thing is
worth more. That that's even
controversial to say now that like deep
connection with another person over the
course of an extended period of time and
again like not to tie it to the bigger
thing again but
you know it's not a coincidence that
around the 1970s
is when TV really proliferated.
And you know my mentor in graduate
school before I went to law school I I
got my master's degree and I was working
on my PhD in a field called media
ecology which is the study of
information environments.
>> Interesting.
>> And my mentor was Neil Postman and and
he was the chair of my dissertation
committee and he was the chair of my
when I wrote my master's thesis and Neil
wrote a book called Amusing Ourselves to
death public discourse in the age of
television
and he wrote a book called The
Disappearance of Childhood. He wrote a
book called Technopoly the Surrender of
Culture to Technology and he was very
precient like he He saw that technology
like our society is an ecosystem.
So when you add a salamander to an
ecosystem, you don't have the old
ecosystem plus a salamander. You have a
whole new ecosystem because that
salamander eats this bug, but that bug
used to eat this plant. And that plant
when it dies creates a By the way, now
you take the salamander out, you don't
have the old environment you had. you
have a whole new environment cuz now
that salamander changed things. So what
happens in the 1970s? Everybody's
focusing on hormonal birth control. And
I'm not suggesting that that's not a
real thing that the advent of hormonal
birth control changed sex. Sex was now
women had a tremendous amount of control
over pregnancy and whether they wanted
to be pregnant or not and it changed the
constitution of women. No doubt. No
doubt. A lot of really smart people have
talked about that. But it's also when
the proliferation of advertising began.
Because remember, television,
just like YouTube or just like any form
of social media, the purpose of
television is to keep you watching the
ads. It's not to entertain you. It's to
entertain you enough that you stay for
the ads. Like that's the purpose of
television. So advertising,
I believe, is the opposite of therapy.
If the purpose of therapy is to help you
cultivate and maintain some sense of
wellness and wholeness, then advertising
is the opposite of therapy. Because the
fundamental core message of advertising
you will never hear in an ad, you're
fine. You don't need anything. You don't
need to buy anything. You don't need to
do anything. You're fine. The core
message of every single advertisement is
the same. You're not okay. You're not
okay. You're doing it wrong. Redemption
is available. You You'll be okay, but
there's some stuff there's some stuff
you need. You need to get this or you
need to do this or you need to be more
like this. But it's all fundamentally
underneath those other messages is
you're not okay. [snorts]
If that now has become, by the way,
advertisement and information has become
a form of garbage. It comes at us from
everywhere all the time with devoid of
context most of the time. It's just
coming at us constantly and again that
fundamental message is you're not okay
and we're wondering why we're all not
okay. Like in the 1970s we unleashed on
society and since have continued to
amplify
at a steady trajectory the amount of
advertising that we are because by the
way what is Instagram other than an ad
for me?
Look at me. Look at how great I'm doing.
Like look at look at how beautiful my
life is. This is my greatest hits right
here. And by the way, you're watching it
when you're living your gag reel because
you're not when you're like having the
most wonderful time with Lisa or with
friends. You're not like, "Hang on, I
want to check my Instagram feed."
>> No, you're like having your moment.
You're in it. You're having a blast.
When are you looking at your Instagram?
When you're on the toilet, when you're
bored, when you're on the subway, when
there's nothing going, you're waiting
for someone, you know? So, you're in
like your gag reel. you're in your
boring moment and you're watching
everyone's curated amazing everything,
their filtered beautiful things, the
photos that are the best photos cuz
that's what anyone's posting. So, we're
now like living and creating our own
advertisements which are again the core
message is still you're not okay. You
need to do something different. You need
to be better. And we're wondering why
we're also kind of miserable and lost
and don't know what should be important
anymore.
I don't know. It's not that shocking to
me.
>> All right. So, given all of that, do you
think there is still wisdom in getting
married?
>> Marriage is a legal status. It's a
contract between you and the government
essentially. Like you and Lisa have a
prenup.
>> No.
>> No. No. You do. You do. It was written
by the government. It's written by the
government and they can change it
without your permission.
>> Fair.
>> Every marriage has a prenup. What's a
prenup? A prenup is a rule set. A prenup
says in the event that this marriage
ends in something other than death,
because every marriage ends, it ends in
divorce or death, but every single
marriage ends. I hope yours ends in
death. What a weird thing to say out
loud to a human being, right? Like I
hope you and Lisa end in death. Like But
I mean it.
>> So does my wife, by the way, she will
instantly go together.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Like in the same Yeah.
That's That's good. Like Like right when
you're both having sex at the age of 95,
the roof caves in and you instantly both
die. That's lovely. That's a Listen, I
You know what? I wish this for you. I
hope that this happens. But the truth is
all marriages end. And when they end,
there's a rule set applied, right? So,
do you not have a will because you don't
want to think about death? No. You have
a will because you don't want the
government to decide what happens to
your property, you know? Well, you have
a prenup. You just decided the
government's going to write your prenup.
And that's okay. You have the right to
do that. By the way, they can change it.
>> Like, it's the most legally significant.
Getting married is the most legally
significant thing you're going to do in
your life other than dying. It changes
all of your fundamental rights. It
changes your ownership rights. It opts
you out of the title system. It changes
your estate and inheritance rights. It
changes your rights and obligations when
it comes to the collection of support
from the other person and economic
stability. Like it creates a whole
bunch. By the way, you buy a house, you
get a HUD one, a lead paint disclosure,
you get married, you get a pamphlet, you
get anything? No.
>> Anybody give you a piece of paper?
Right? Most people learn legally what
they did when they got married when
they're in my office.
>> It's the first time that they learn what
actually happened legally. And so again,
like to me,
and I don't say this disrespectfully,
I think if you and Lisa didn't marry, I
think you'd be as happy as you are now.
Like happy together. Like I I think you
love each other. I think it's really
amazing to love each other. Look, it's
an unfalsifiable premise. I know. But
I'm telling you, I only know a couple of
happily married people. You're one of
them. I got a friend Chris. I got like a
couple. Not many. Not many. I got to
think about it. Like I bet you do, too.
If I said to you, "How many people are
unhappily married or divorced that you
know?" It's probably a bigger number
than the number of people that like, "Oh
my god, they are genuinely happily
married." It's true for most people. If
you look at that and you go, "Yeah, you
know, like this is people are not good
at this, right?" But the people that are
good at it, the people that are
genuinely happy with it, I I just don't
know that the legal status was required
>> for Rich, I'm not saying it doesn't
bolster it in some way. I'm not saying
maybe it does, you know, it adds a
signifier like saying, "Oh, she's my
girlfriend."
>> It's signifying a depth of connection
like, "Oh, no. This is someone to be
taken seriously. This is my this is my
wife, right? Like it's a signifier. But
again, like you know, the best
description I ever heard of God
is that God is the name we give to the
blanket we put over a mystery to give it
shape.
>> That's very interesting. Okay. And so I
think similarly,
marriage
is a is a wall we try to build around a
deep connection we have to another
person
to to protect it, to bolster it, to
prevent it from falling apart, to
prevent it from the thousand natural
shocks the flesh is heir to, right? And
all the all the the things that are
antagonistic to our bonds and our union.
Like we try to really bolster the thing,
it it doesn't work very well. Like it
doesn't work very well. Like people are
constantly cheating. People are
constantly just taking for granted their
connection to this person and letting it
fall apart. People are a lot of them
incredibly miserable in their marriages.
Now again,
is that in part because once we've built
those walls, we go, "Cool. I don't have
to think about that anymore. Like it's
safe now. I'm married. Like we we're
married. She's they're they're with me.
They're good. Like whereas
>> that on women, I don't think you're
going to get that with guys. Let let me
make a pitch here. Tell me uh what you
think about this. So
>> uh the most important book that I've
ever read that has impacted my marriage
more than anything else was a book
called The Power of Myth. Written by
Joseph Campbell, the guy that helped
George Lucas write Star Wars. And in it,
he puts forward the idea that we don't
have enough rituals in our lives
anymore. And I can't remember if he says
this expressly or this is just what I
was going through. And so it landed for
me this way, but my memory of it is he
was saying part of the reason I think
the divorce rate is so high is that
there's no meaningful transition between
not married and married. And so when I
think about marriage as an artifact of
evolution, like you were saying, the
wisdom that's passed down, this is
people that are like, "Okay, wait a
second. We understand that the kid has a
way better chance of surviving long
enough to have kids. If two people come
together, they stay together. We know
that the human mind has a very
fascinating ability to make a concept
very tangible. So God is a concept, but
oo buddy does it become very tangible.
People will kill for it, die for it, the
whole nine,
>> right?
>> And one of the ways we lock that in is
by putting people through a ritual.
>> Yeah. And so he was going through all
these different like coming of age
rituals used to be a thing and all that
stuff. And so
>> quests.
>> Exactly. So I said, "Okay, I want to be
different the day after I get married
than the day before."
>> I love that.
>> And so I went through a ritualistic
scarification.
>> I wanted it to be painful. When I tell
people it was a tattoo, they always get
disappointed. But uh for me, it's the
only tattoo I've ever gotten. It's the
only tattoo I will ever get. And I
specifically wanted to do something that
I didn't want. I did not want to tattoo.
I hated needles at the time. Not that I
love.
>> I was going to say if you said you hated
tattoos, we're going to have a trouble.
>> You and I are very, very different. But
uh I certainly didn't want to do it, but
I wanted to go through something painful
and I wanted a permanent reminder that
I'm a different person now.
>> Yeah. And having that psychology, going
into it like that, going in saying,
"Okay, listen." Barring, you know,
certain things, obviously, if my wife
was unfaithful or was in some way cruel
or abusive or whatever in a way that
crosses some line,
>> then sure, I would not stay in a
loveless marriage or anything like that,
but I wanted to make divorce like an
absolute like that is uh you're burning
the whole thing down. That is not the
thing that you do to get rid of
termites. You don't decapitate to get
rid of the dandruff. like this really
really needs to be something that we
protect. So
>> that thinking in that way is more
important than the act itself. But there
was something about
>> thinking like okay this I need a
transition. I need something that
demarcates my life before and after.
>> Yeah.
>> I want to treat this as something that's
ceremonial.
>> Like all of those things led up to just
walking into the marriage. the the
actual act of marriage in a way that was
like I am trying to cement something
that's going to be forever. And so when
I think about I think to sum up my
thesis on why men and women are going
wrong where the problem lies with modern
life in general is that we're no longer
living in accordance with the algorithms
in our brain. Mhm.
>> And because of that, like blank slate
beliefs are like the biggest violation
of the algorithms running in your brain.
Men, like anybody that is confused as to
how different men [snorts] and women are
need only watch how Lisa interviewed
you. So she just recorded an interview
with you before now.
>> If people watch them back to back, they
will see very quickly. I'm queuing on
different things.
>> Recording them back to back, I will tell
you is I'm getting whiplash cuz it's so
different. And I just spent a bunch of
hours with her in a very different
conversation and this is like the I I'm
doing contrast therapy right now. Like I
just got out of the sauna and you are
the cold plunge.
>> Correct.
>> And it's and I love it. Like I love it.
I love that. I do it all the time. But
man, I feel that that difference.
>> Now my wife has masculine traits. I have
feminine traits. So we're already closer
to the center than most people. So when
I think about people that are much
farther apart trying to blank slate
their way through life, I'm just like,
"Woo, buddy, you are going to be
routinely confused
>> because you have certain
>> uh tendencies, leanings, however you
want to think about it, that are pulling
you through life. And if you expect the
other person to be like you, you're
going to be eternally confused." Lisa
made no sense to me when I thought she
viewed the world the same way that I
did.
>> Yeah.
>> And it was only when I was like, "Oh,
wait. She has a different brain
structure. She perceives the world
differently than I do.
>> Uh she has slightly different value set
than I do. Hormonally is wildly
different. So
>> that has uh that was really
transformative to wake up and say she's
not me but illogical. She just actually
is experiencing a different animal.
>> Yeah. In a totally different way. So I
need to figure out, okay, wait a second.
What are you going through right now?
What is this like for you? to your
point, tell me what being a good husband
actually means for you. And I like the
way you say it. It's a verb. Ultimately,
it comes down to a thing you do.
>> There's no mystery in this, my love.
There's only like you want me to do a
thing. What is that thing?
>> But that's what I said when I said
there's simplicity and complexity and
it's this dance, right? Right. So, like
there's so much there to unpack and all
of it was really great and it's a
completely different conversation than
the one I just had with your wife. But I
will say and you know I would encourage
anybody watching this one to watch that
one because I have to tell you like
you're going to see a very different
thing. But what I would say first is
okay so first to to Joseph Campbell the
power of myth dial it back even further
to what inspired that which was Carl
Young man and his symbols. You know,
because you know, Jordan Peterson, a lot
of his stuff is informed by Joseph
Campbell, Joseph Campbell informed by
Carl Jung. So when we [snorts] think
about Carl Young and a lot of his, you
know, theories of the collective
unconscious and archetypes and all of
those kinds of concepts and the idea
that like that which you most need to
see is in is often in the place you most
fear looking, you know, that's really
where where Jung's perspective came
from. But he believed rightly we are
creatures of symbol and meaning makers.
Like we're constantly trying to make
meaning. And we all know this. Like no
no one could dispute that we're meaning
makers. [snorts] Like we we see anything
and we immediately start trying to make
sense of what's going on here. We start
to tell the story of like what is this?
Like you see me and you go okay he's a
lawyer and he's got tattoos and like
what's he trying to say? What's the
story he's trying to tell? What can I
extrapolate from this? You have like the
I'm very clean shaven. You have the
like, "Oops, I didn't know I was sexy
stubble." You know, like, but we're
we're both doing a thing. Like, we're
both doing a thing. And it's a choice.
And by the way, even not choosing is a
choice. Like, being like, "Oh, I I just
don't like this cuz I don't care." Cool.
That's a choice. Like, it's a story you
want to tell the world. And that's
great. Like, we're all telling stories.
We have all these symbols and we want to
either wear them or display them. Like,
this suit is as much of a symbol as
anything on my tattoos, right? Because
what is this supposed to say? [snorts]
Theoretically, what a suit says is I'm
taking what I'm doing seriously, right?
Like, why do you wear a suit to a
wedding? Why do you wear a suit to a job
interview? Why do I wear a suit to
court? Because I take this seriously.
That's the point. It's And again, I
don't know that that's accurate. I don't
know that you couldn't create a world
where you wear something like if you
wear a red hat, you take this very
seriously. It's just a symbol. We made
it up. Even the words I'm using right
now, right? When you think about like
logoraphic versus simographic writing,
if you look at like you know Julian
James and like the origin of
consciousness and the breakdown of the
bicameal mind like we we had this world
of of sort of infinite symbols and we
had to start reducing it to make meaning
and sense of it you know and Wickenstein
said you know where understanding fails
a word comes to take its place. So
because we have to try to fit things
into these little symbolic boxes so we
can explain them. So, do I think when
you say like I wanted to get a tattoo, I
wanted to like I am changing. This is
like a vision quest like I'm going to
now be a new person. I'm being you're
being baptized, you know, like I'm being
baptized into marriage. There's this
symbol, this symbolic event. I think
that's incredible. I think that's the
one of the most useful and primal basic
things that human beings across time and
across cultures do. And by [snorts] the
way, I think a wedding, like if you say
to me, do I believe in marriage? Like,
do I think marriage has value? I think a
wedding has a tremendous amount of
value. Like you just described a wedding
in the first part of your your
discussion there. You're you're not
talking about marriage. You're talking
about a marriage ceremony,
>> right? as a symbol of the start of a
journey, which is a marriage. But a a
wedding ceremony, who who wouldn't say a
wedding ceremony isn't amazing? And I'm
not talking about cuz like the cake is
good and you like little pigs and
blankets, although that's pretty good.
And [snorts] and like you like to do the
chicken dance or whatever it might be.
Like what you're saying is, hey, let's
get everyone who was part of our journey
in a room
all together because they built us. And
then let's stand up and say, "I found my
person." There's eight billion people in
the world. I f