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Language: en
So fame and the brain. So let me give
you another I know you have some
thoughts on that and so let me just tell
you my personal experience.
>> So you know I started doing science
television
>> about 13 years ago and now people
recognize me and it's completely changed
the way I move through the world right
it doesn't make me have a big head or
anything like that. It gives me a
comfort because, you know, I grew up in
great violence, you know, common
violence, you know, and and I came of
age and I turned 18 in 1985, the crack
cocaine era. Anytime you went out,
somebody was mean mugging you, right? I
got I was at gunpoint so many times for
because of the way I was living my life,
you know, various things like that. But
I just have this I was just going
through the world on the defensive all
the time, you know, on edge, right?
Always looking.
>> [clears throat]
>> But now I expect that people are going
to greet me in a positive way, which is
kind of new,
>> right? And what it's done is it's really
just been a relief, right? It's just a
>> Yeah. You're not on the defense. You
don't think you're being attacked.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So I So it hasn't taken me
from like, yeah, I'm the man now. You I
don't feel that at all. Right. I'm still
just the same dude. But I Wow. I do feel
such a sense of relief.
>> Yeah. Not a threat then.
>> Not a threat. Yeah. Everybody's not a
threat anymore. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I think, you know, I so I I I've
gotten really interested in how fame
affects people and it's
>> it's not one sizefits-all. It's very
different depending on the So, so I'm
really interested in how different
personalities and intersect with this
phenomena of fame.
>> And if I can interject,
>> yeah,
>> you know, there's the phenomenon of
children who become famous and how
negative that can be in their lives. So,
do you differentiate between adults and
Yeah,
>> there's all different types of fame.
There's childhood stardom, right? that
that affects the developing brain. You
know, suddenly you're having this really
abnormal experience and all these sick
offense, you can have anything you want
and your brain isn't even fully
developed. You don't even have impulse
control. Like a lot of bad things if you
don't put things in place to help them,
it can go really south. And we've seen a
lot of cases of that. You know, you have
fame, you have infamy, being famous for
doing something, you know, you you get
famous for just doing living your life
and you do something amazing and then
you get famous. You have a sports an
athlete is just trying to do their, you
know, actors, politicians, there's
different types of fame. There's falling
out of fame, you know, getting
disgraced, getting cancelled.
>> Well, I'm really interested in the
psychology of this. Why do people chase
it? Why do they want it? What's the
evolutionary roots of it? Right?
>> Like what what we see from studies is
that actually the person who has the
best advantage is not the alpha, but
it's the beta. It's the best friend of
the famous person. It's the right
because everyone wants to knock the
alpha person off the thing. They're
constantly having to worry about can I
keep this and threats and people want to
knock them down. the guy just next to
him, the best friend, is getting all the
benefits of, you know, the, you know,
more chances to procreate and getting
more resources and getting all of that
and getting all into VIP clubs,
whatever. Cuz like, you know, when
you're Jay-Z's best friend,
>> you're getting all the good stuff, but
you're not getting all the people
digging at you and trying to knock you
down.
>> Yeah. You're famous, but free,
>> right? Exactly. So, fame comes with a
lot of perks, but it comes with
downsides as well. Um but but
evolutionarily now we're in this really
weird world where anybody can sort of be
famous and everyone thinks they're this
close to being famous which it's
elucery. It's not true. Like it's, you
know, internet fame isn't really what we
meant by being famously sustainable or
for having done something amazing in the
world. Like, you know, we're all going
to know
>> whoever, you know, as the person who
walked on the moon for the first time or
Miller or whatever, right? Like they did
things that that's why they're well
known. Einstein, right? But now it's
like I can create a meme and like
suddenly [laughter] but that doesn't
last long. And then you get the dopamine
high. Oh, people like me, you know, and
then you're seeking it. Oh, for more and
more and more becomes like a drug. So,
we see the same neuroscircuitry involved
in drugs of addiction
>> are involved. It's involved in fame.
It's
>> what about formerly famous?
>> Formerly famous. I mean, like people
who've been famous and fall out of fame.
So, there's different types. Some
continue the rest of their lives
searching to try to get that high back
again, right? It's like you got a
cocaine high and now you're just keep
trying to get back to that high. The
successful people who navigate that find
some other meaning and meaningfulness in
life, right? Like they become an
astrophysicist or they become, you know,
and they find other meaning. Other
famous people find meaning in now I'm
going to do something positive with this
platform or with this fame that I've
gotten and I'm going to turn it into
something good for the world and that
becomes reinforcing for them. You know,
you get dopamine from helping others.
Yes, you know, you bring up this another
point implicitly
>> that seems to track to all sorts of
positive benefits, right? Like
longevity, being healthier, and that is
living with purpose.
>> Yes.
>> Right. And and and and
>> you know, one of the sort of um
conflicts I have with the way we talk
colloquially, you know, we talk a lot
about being happy, right? know if I'm
happy. And and when I reflect on my own
life, you know, it hasn't so much been
happiness,
but fulfillment, right? And and one
example is um
uh I would when I was in the military,
you know, sometimes there would be some
screw- up we've all participated in. So,
they're going to punish us. So, they're
like, "We're getting up at 4:00 a.m. and
we're going to run for six miles." And
you know, when we wake up at that
ungodly hour and we're trying to fall
out and you it's a chilly morning, we're
all complaining.
>> Yeah.
>> But at the end of it, we're all like,
"This feels great because they just
showed us what we were made of, right?
They just extended us and pushed us and
we lived up to it." And I find in those
situations where I'm just drugged and I
persevere is some of the best feeling I
have. But I wouldn't describe it as
happy,
>> right? You know, it's the same thing
with, let's say, having children.
>> Having children doesn't make you
happier, right? [laughter]
>> Dr. That's the one thing that's come out
of this. Cut that one. [laughter]
>> She says, "No, but you know, you're not
sleeping. You're I mean, I'm like their
personal servant, you know, with the you
didn't make the pasta the right way.
Make it again." You know, you're driving
them around. You're not increasing your
level of happiness, but you are
increasing your fulfillment, right?
There's a joy you get from from hardship
and adversity because you're doing
something that has meaning and purpose.
Like I'm helping this human who's going
to like you know grow into something in
this world and that becomes my purpose
and that has meaning for me and every
interaction I have with them is valuable
and so yeah happiness you know it's
>> so what's happening in the brain when
you have fulfillment and meaning and
purpose and and why is that so
beneficial? It's different than so
there's highs you get in life right from
like a amazing peak moment which is
great and you know a lot of patients
come in like I don't know I don't feel
happy it's like it's not about happy
it's about
>> can you just it's like equinimity
>> first of all that's first and foremost
your baseline should just be I'm at
peace
>> right hopefully hopefully
>> yeah [laughter] right no most people
aren't and that's what we're just trying
to get there about it you know it's not
about oh I want to be happy those are
peak moments you can't always be happy
>> so That's first and foremost. But our
brains in some ways give us a reward or
give us some certain types of pleasure
from finding meaning in things. So like
when you solve a puzzle,
>> that's a good feeling. Yeah.
>> Right. You like and and there's
evolutionary reasons for why our brains
evolve to find pleasure in solving
problems. And and I think finding
meaning in in ambiguous things and
finding purpose,
>> it gives us a sense of this pleasure,
this contentment,
>> right?
>> Which is different than the high the the
big dopamine highs and the rushes like a
drug or fame.
>> So what what is it I inside the brain?
Is it turning things down?
>> It's hard to say. It's not necessarily
turning things down, but the when I
think people are fulfilled or feel at
peace or um have a sense of purpose, you
do get some dopamine. You get the
serotonin, which is the more
>> long-term feeling of h of sort of a
happiness or contentment. But it is
turning, if you want to say, turning
down those
>> the anxiety parts of our the rumination,
the the you know, obsessing over all the
negative things. when you're like you
know these negative things are happening
in my life it's really a sense of
resilience but I have purpose I have
meaning
>> right
>> it helps you build up this resilience
and we see that there's a genetic
component actually to resilience really
>> so there are people like let's say
who've been they look at studies with
PTSD same talk about being in the ar you
know in the military you go to war they
looked at soldiers who went to war both
experience the same horrible things a
certain subset goes on to develop PTSD
and the others don't what's is there
something neuroprotective And it turns
out there is there's certain genetic
differences that help make people more
resilient. People are studying this now.
How do we increase resiliency? But the
point is that when you have a purpose or
meaning in addition, let's say there's
some genetic components, but it can help
inoculate you against all these negative
things that inevitably happen in life.
People die, you lose a job, whatever.
That all happens to everybody,
>> right?
>> Some people overcome it because like I
have a greater sense of purpose. Some
people find that in religion, right?
Some people find that like I have a
higher purpose. When people go to AA,
they always say find a higher, you know,
but it's something greater than oneself.
>> Right. Right. Right.
>> It's like that kind of feeling. It's not
just about me and my little petty
problems, whatever. It's something
greater purpose. And when I think when
you link that
>> yourself to something bigger and that's
what I talk about as a cure to kind of
fame, it's not about me me I need all
the agilation and the likes and
whatever. It's
>> what's your greater purpose outside of
you, outside of yourself.