Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Ayane Howard she's a roboticist
professor Georgia Tech and director of
the human automation systems lab with
research interests in human robot
interaction assisted robots in the home
therapy gaming apps and remote robotic
exploration of extreme environments like
me in her work she cares a lot about
both robots and human beings and so I
really enjoyed this conversation this is
the artificial intelligence podcast if
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and now here's my conversation with
Ayane Howard
what or who is the most amazing robot
you've ever met or perhaps had the
biggest impact on your career I haven't
met her but I grew up with her
but of course Rosie so and I think it's
because also who's Rosie Rosie from the
Jetsons she is all things to all people
right think about it like anything you
wanted it was like magic it happened so
people not only anthropomorphize but
project whatever they wish for the robot
to be onto but also I mean think about
it she was socially engaging she every
so often had an attitude right she kept
us honest she would push back sometimes
when you know George was doing some
weird stuff but she cared about people
especially the kids she was like the the
perfect robot and you've said that
people don't want their robots to be
perfect can you elaborate that what do
you think that is just like you said
Rosie pushed back a little bit every
once in a while yeah so I I think it's
that so you think about robotics in
general we want them because they
enhance our quality of life and usually
that's linked to something that's
functional right even if you think of
self-driving cars why is there a
fascination because people really do
hate to drive like there's the like
Saturday driving where I can just be but
then there was the I have to go to work
every day and I'm in traffic for an hour
I mean people really hate that and so
robots are designed to basically enhance
our ability to increase our quality of
life and so the perfection comes from
this aspect of interaction if I think
about how we drive if we drove perfectly
we would never get anywhere right so
think about how many times you had to
run past the light because you see the
car behind you is about to crash into
you or that little kid kind of runs into
the street and so you have to cross on
the other side because there's no cars
right like if you think about it we are
not perfect drivers some of it is
because it
our world and so if you have a robot
that is perfect in that sense of the
word they wouldn't really be able to
function with us can you linger a little
bit on the word perfection so from the
robotics perspective what does that word
mean and how is sort of the optimal
behaviors you're describing different
than what we think that's perfection
yeah so perfection if you think about it
in the more theoretical point of view
it's really tied to accuracy right so if
I have a function can I complete it at
100% accuracy with zero errors and so
that's kind of if you think about
perfection in the size of the word and
in a self-driving car realm do you think
from a robotics perspective we kind of
think that perfection means following
the rules perfectly sort of defining
staying in the lane changing lanes when
there's a green light you go and there's
a red light you stop and that that's the
and be able to perfectly see all the
entities in the scene that's the limit
of what we think of as perfection and I
think that's where the problem comes is
that when people think about perfection
for robotics the ones that are the most
successful are the ones that are quote
unquote perfect like I said Rosie is
perfect but she actually wasn't perfect
in terms of accuracy but she was perfect
in terms of how she interacted and how
she adapted and I think that's some of
the disconnect is that we really want
perfection with respect to its ability
to adapt to us we don't really want
perfection with respect to 100% accuracy
with respect to the rules that we just
made up anyway right and so I think
there's this disconnect sometimes
between what we really want and what
happens and we see this all the time
like in my research right like the the
optimal quote unquote optimal
interactions are when the robot is
adapting based on the person not 100%
following what's optimal based on the
roles just to linger on autonomous
vehicles for a second just your thoughts
maybe off the top of her head
is how hard is that problem do you think
based on what we just talked about you
know there's a lot of folks in the
automotive industry they're very
confident from Elon Musk two-way mode
all these companies how hard is it to
solve that last piece did the gap
between the perfection and the human
definition of how you actually function
in this world so this is a moving target
so I remember when all the big companies
started to heavily invest in us and
there was a number of even roboticists
as well as you know folks who were
putting in the VCS and and corporations
Elon Musk being one of them that said
you know self-driving cars on the road
with people you know within five years
that was a little while ago and now
people are saying five years ten years
twenty years some are saying never right
I think if you look at some of the
things that are being successful is
these basically fixed environments where
you still have some anomalies wait you
still have people walking you still have
stores but you don't have other drivers
right like other human drivers are is a
dedicated space for the for the cars
because if you think about robotics in
general where has always been successful
is I mean you can say manufacturing like
way back in the day right it was a fixed
environment humans were not part of the
equation we're a lot better than that
but like when we can carve out scenarios
that are closer to that space then I
think that it's where we are so a closed
campus where you don't have self-driving
cars and maybe some protection so that
the students don't jet in front just
because they want to see what happens
like having a little bit I think that's
where we're gonna see the most success
in the near future and be slow-moving
right not not you know 55 60 70 miles an
hour but the the speed of a golf cart
right so that said the most successful
in the automotive industry robots
operating today in the hands of
real people are ones that are traveling
over 55 miles an hour and in our
constrains environment which is Tesla
vehicles so we'll test the autopilot so
I just I would love to hear of your just
thoughts of two things so one I don't
know if you've gotten to see you've
heard about something called smart
summon wait what Tesla system part
Apollo system where the car drives zero
occupancy no driver in the parking lot
slowly sort of tries to navigate the
parking lot to find itself to you and
there's some incredible amounts of
videos and just hilarity that happens as
it awkwardly tries to navigate this
environment but it's it's a beautiful
nonverbal communication between machine
and human that I think is a from it's
like it's some of the work that you do
in this kind of interesting human robot
interaction space so what are your
thoughts in general water so I I do have
that feature new driver Tesla I do
mainly because I'm a gadget freak right
so I it's a gadget that happens to have
some wheels and yeah I've seen some of
the videos but what's your experience
like I mean your your human robot
interaction roboticist you're legit sort
of expert in the field so what does it
feel for machine to come to you it's one
of these very fascinating things but
also I am hyper hyper alert right like
I'm hyper alert like my but my thumb is
like okay I'm ready to take over even
when I'm in my car or I'm doing things
like automated backing into so there's
like a feature where you can do this
automating backing into our parking
space our bring the car out of your
garage or even you know pseudo autopilot
on the freeway right
I am hyper sensitive I can feel like as
I'm navigating like yeah that's an error
right there like I am very aware of it
but I'm also fascinated by it and it
does get better like it
I look and see it's learning from all of
these people who are cutting it on like
every
come on it's getting better right and so
I think that's what's amazing about it
is that this nice dance of you're still
hyper-vigilant so you're still not
trusting it at all yeah yeah you're
using it what on the highway if I were
to like what as a roboticist we'll talk
about trust a little bit what how do you
explain that you still use it is it the
gadget freak part like where you just
enjoy exploring technology or is that
the right actually balance between
robotics and humans is where you use it
but don't trust it and somehow there's
this dance that ultimately is a positive
yes so I think I'm I just don't
necessarily trust technology but I'm an
early adopter right so when it first
comes out I will use everything but I
will be very very cautious of how I use
it
do you read about or do you explore but
just try it they do like it's crudely to
put a crew they do you read the manual
or do you learn through exploration I'm
an explorer if I have to read the manual
then you know I do design then it's a
bad user interface it's a failure Elon
Musk is very confident that you kind of
take it from where it is now to full
autonomy so from this human robot
interaction you don't really trust and
then you try and then you catch it when
it fails to it's going to incrementally
improve itself into full full way you
don't need to participate what's your
sense of that trajectory is it feasible
so the promise there is by the end of
next year by the end of 2020 it's the
current promise what's your sense about
that journey that test is on so there's
kind of three three things going on now
I think in terms of will people go like
as a user as a adopter will you trust
going to that point I think so right
like there are some users and it's
because what happens is when technology
at the beginning and then the technology
tends to work your apprehension slow
slowly goes away and as people we tend
to swing to the other extreme right
because like oh I was like hyper hyper
fearful or hypersensitive and was
awesome and we just tend to swing that's
just human nature and so you will have I
mean it is a scary notion because most
people are now extremely untrusting of
autobot they use it but they don't trust
it and it's a scary notion that there's
a certain point where you allow yourself
to look at the smartphone for like 20
seconds and then there'll be this phase
shift will be like 20 seconds 30 seconds
1 minute 2 minutes this is scary it's
opposition but that's people right
that's human that's humans I mean I
think of even our use of I mean just
everything on the internet right like
think about how relying we are on
certain apps and certain engines right
20 years ago people have been like oh
yeah that's stupid like that makes no
sense like of course that's false
like now it's just like oh of course
I've been using it it's been correct all
this time of course aliens I didn't
think they existed but now it says they
do obvious nth earth is flat so okay but
you said three things so one is okay so
one is the human and I think there would
be a group of individuals that will
swing right I just teenagers gene it I
mean it'll be clean it'll be adults
there's actually an age demographic
that's optimal for a technology adoption
and you can actually find them and
they're actually pretty easy to find
just the based on their habits based on
so someone like me who wouldn't wasn't
no robot Isis or probably be the optimal
kind of person right early adopter okay
with technology very comfortable and not
hyper sensitive right I'm just the hyper
sensitive because I designed this stuff
yeah so there is a target demographic
that will swing the other one though is
you still have these hue
that are on the road that one is a
harder harder thing to do and as long as
we have people that are on the same
streets that's going to be the big issue
and it's just because you can't possibly
know well so you can't possibly map the
some of the silliness of human drivers
right like as an example when you're
next to that car that has that big
sticker called student driver right like
you are like oh either I am going to
like go around like we are we know that
that person is just gonna make mistakes
that make no sense right how do you map
that information or if I'm in a car and
I look over and I see you know two
fairly young looking individuals and
there's no student driver bumper and I
see them chit-chatting to each other I'm
like oh yeah that's an issue right so
how do you get that kind of information
and that experience into basically an
autopilot yeah and there's millions of
cases like that where we take little
hints to establish context I mean you
said kind of beautifully poetic human
things but there's probably subtle
things about the environment about is
about it being maybe time for commuters
start going home from work and therefore
you can make some kind of judgment about
the group behavior of pedestrians or
even cities right like if you're in
Boston how people cross the street like
lights are not an issue versus other
places where people will will actually
wait for the crosswalk or somewhere
peaceful and but what I've also seen so
just even in Boston that intersection
the intersection is different so every
intersection has a personality of its
own so that certain neighborhoods of
Boston are different so we kind of end
the based on different timing of day at
night it's all it's all there's a
there's a dynamic to human behavior that
would kind of figure out ourselves we're
not
be able to we're not able to introspect
and figure it out but somehow we our
brain learns it we do and so you're
you're saying is there so that's the
shortcut that's their shortcut though
for everybody is there something that
could be done you think that you know
that's what we humans do it's just like
bird flight right this example they give
for flight do you necessarily need to
build the bird that flies or can you do
an airplane is there shortcut so I think
the the shortcut is and I kind of I talk
about it as a fixed space where so
imagine that there is a neighborhood
that's a new smart city or a new
neighborhood that says you know what we
are going to design this new city based
on supporting self-driving cars and then
doing things knowing that there's
anomalies knowing that people are like
this right and designing it based on
that assumption that like we're gonna
have this that would be an example of a
shortcut so you still have people but
you do very specific things to try to
minimize the noise a little bit as an
example and the people themselves become
accepting of the notion that there's
autonomous cars right right like they
move into so right now you have like a
you will have a self-selection bias
right like individuals will move into
this neighborhood knowing like this is
part of like the real estate pitch right
and so I think that's a way to do a
shortcut when it allows you to deploy it
allows you to collect then data with
these variances and anomalies because
people are still people but it's it's a
safer space and it's more of an
accepting space ie when something in
that space might happen because things
do because you already have the self
selection like people would be I think a
little more forgiving than other places
and you said three things that would
cover all of them the third is legal
liability which I don't really want to
touch but it's still it's it's still of
concern in the mishmash with like with
policy as well sort of government all
that that whole that
big ball of mess yeah gotcha so that's
so we're out of time what do you think
from robotics perspective you know if
you if you're kind of honest of what
cars do they they kind of kind of
threaten each other's life all the time
so cars are very us I mean in order to
navigate intersections there's an
assertiveness there's a risk-taking and
if you were to reduce it to an objective
function there's a probability of murder
in that function meaning you killing
another human being and you're using
that first of all yeah it has to be low
enough to be acceptable to you on an
ethical level as a individual human
being but it has to be high enough for
people to respect you to not sort of
take advantage of you completely and
jaywalking front knee and so on so I
mean I don't think there's a right
answer here but what's how do we solve
that how how do we solve that from a
robotics perspective one danger and
human life is at stake
yeah as they say cars don't kill people
people kill people people right
so I think now robotic algorithms would
be killing right so it will be robotics
algorithms that are prone oh it will be
robotic algorithms don't kill people
developers of the right account or there
was kill people right I mean one of the
things as people are still in the loop
and at least in the near and midterm I
think people will still be in the loop
at some point even if it's a developer
like we're not necessarily at the stage
where you know robots are programming
autonomous robots with different
behaviors quite yet not so scary notion
sorry to interrupt that a developer is
has some responsibility in in it in the
death of a human being this uh I mean I
think that's why the whole aspect of
ethics in our community is so so
important right like because it's true
if if you think about it you can
basically say I'm not going to work on
weaponized AI right like people can say
that's not what I'm
but yet you are programming algorithms
that might be used in healthcare
algorithms that might decide whether
this person should get this medication
or not and they don't and they die you
okay so that is your responsibility
right and if you're not conscious and
aware that you do have that power when
you're coding and things like that I
think that's that's that's just not a
good thing like we need to think about
this responsibility as we program robots
and and computing devices much more than
we are yes so it's not an option to not
think about ethics I think it's a
majority I would say of computer science
sort of there it's kind of a hot topic
now I think about bias and so on but
it's and we'll talk about it but usually
it's kind of you it's like a very
particular group of people that work on
that and then people who do like
robotics or like well I don't have to
think about that you know there's other
smart people thinking about it it seems
that everybody has to think about it
it's not you can't escape the ethics
well there is bias or just every aspect
of ethics that has to do with human
beings everyone so think about I'm gonna
age myself but I remember when we didn't
have like testers right and so what did
you do as a developer you had to test
your own code right like you had to go
through all the cases and figure it out
and you know and then they realize that
you know like we probably need to have
testing because we're not getting all
the things and so from there what
happens is like most developers they do
you know a little bit of testing but is
usually like okay - my compiler bug out
and you look at the warnings okay is
that acceptable or not right like that's
how you typically think about as a
developer and you'll just assume that is
going to go to another process and
they're gonna test it out but I think we
need to go back to those early days when
you know you're a developer you're
developing there should be like they say
you know okay let me look at the ethical
outcomes of this because there isn't a
second like testing ethical testers
right it's you we did it back in the
early coding days I think that's where
we are with respect
to ethics like this go back to what was
good practice isn't only because we were
just developing the field
yeah and it's uh it's a really heavy
burden I've had to feel it recently in
the last few months but I think it's a
good one to feel like I've gotten a
message more than one from people you
know I've unfortunately gotten some
attention recently and I've got messages
that say that I have blood on my hands
because of working on semi autonomous
vehicles so the idea that you have semi
autonomy means people will become would
lose vigilance and so on as actually be
humans as we described and because of
that because of this idea that we're
creating automation there will be people
be hurt because of it and I think that's
a beautiful thing I mean it's you know
it's many nights where I wasn't able to
sleep because of this notion you know
you really do think about people that
might die because it's technology of
course you can then start rationalizing
saying well you know what 40,000 people
die in the United States every year and
we're trying to ultimately try to save
us but the reality is your code you've
written might kill somebody and that's
an important burden to carry with you as
you design the code I don't even think
of it as a burden if we train this
concept correctly from the beginning and
I use and not to say that coding is like
being a medical doctor the thing about
it medical doctors if they've been in
situations where their patient didn't
survive right do they give up and go
away no every time they come in they
know that there might be a possibility
that this patient might not survive and
so when they approach every decision
like that's in their back of their head
and so why isn't that we aren't teaching
and those are tools though right they're
given some of the tools to address that
so that they don't go crazy but we don't
give those tools so that it does feel
like a burden versus something of I have
a great gift and I can do great awesome
good but with it comes great
responsibility I mean that's what we
teach in terms of you think about
medical schools right great gift great
responsibility I think if we just
changed the messaging a little great
gift being a developer great
responsibility and this is how you
combine those but do you think and this
is really interesting
it's it's outside I actually have no
friends or sort of surgeons or doctors I
mean what does it feel like to make a
mistake in a surgery and somebody to die
because of that
like is that something you could be
taught in medical school sort of how to
be accepting of that risk so because I
do a lot of work with health care
robotics I I have not lost a patient for
example the first one's always the
hardest right but they really teach the
value right so they teach responsibility
but they also teach the value like
you're saving 40,000 mm but in order to
really feel good about that when you
come to a decision you have to be able
to say at the end I did all that I could
possibly do right versus a well I just
picked the first widget and right like
so every decision is actually thought
through it's not a habit is not a let me
just take the best algorithm that my
friend gave me right it's a is this it
this this the best have I done my best
to do good right and so you're right and
I think burden is the wrong word if it's
a gift but you have to treat it
extremely seriously
correct so on a slightly related note
yeah in a recent paper the ugly truth
about ourselves and our robot creations
you you discuss you highlight some
biases that may affect the function in
various robotics systems can you talk
through if you remember examples or some
there's a lot of examples I use what is
bias first of all yes so bias is this
and so bias which is different than
prejudice so bias is that we all have
these preconceived notions about
particular everything from particular
groups for to habits to identity right
so we have these
predispositions and so when we address a
problem we look at a problem make a
decision those preconceived notions
might affect our our outputs or outcomes
so they're the bias could be positive or
negative and then it's prejudice the
negative courage is the negative right
so prejudice is that not only are you
aware of your bias but you are then take
it and have a negative outcome even
though you are aware wait and there
could be gray areas too that's the
challenging aspect of all questions
actually so I always like so there's
there's a funny one and in fact I think
it might be in the paper because I think
I talked about self-driving cars but
think about this we for teenagers right
typically we insurance companies charge
quite a bit of money if you have a
teenage driver so you could say that's
an age bias right but no one will click
I mean parents will be grumpy but no one
really says that that's not fair
that's interesting we don't that's right
that's right
it's a everybody in human factors and
safety research almost I mean it's quite
ruthlessly critical of teenagers and we
don't question is that okay is that okay
to be ageist in this kind of way it is
and it is agent right is that really
there's no question about it and so so
these are these this is the gray area
right cuz you you know that you know
teenagers are more likely to be an
accident and so there's actually some
data to it but then if you take that
same example and you say well I'm going
to make the insurance hire for an area
of Boston because there's a lot of
accidents and then they find out that
that's correlated with socio economics
well then it becomes a problem right
like that is not acceptable
but yet the teenager which is age it's
against age is right so we figure that I
was I
by having conversations by the discourse
let me throw out history the definition
of what is ethical or not has changed
and hopefully always for the better
correct correct
so in terms of bias or prejudice in
robotic in algorithms what what examples
do sometimes think about so I think
about quite a bit the medical domain
just because historically right the
healthcare domain has had these biases
typically based on gender and ethnicity
primarily a little an age but not so
much you know historically if you think
about FDA and drug trials it's you know
harder to find a woman that you know
aren't childbearing and so you may not
test on drugs at the same level right so
there there's these things and so if you
think about robotics right something as
simple as I'd like to design an
exoskeleton right what should the
material be what should the way P which
should the form factor be are you who
are you going to design it around I will
say that in the US you know women
average height and weight is slightly
different than guys so who are you gonna
choose like if you're not thinking about
it from the beginning as you know okay I
when I design this and I look at the
algorithms and I design the control
system and the forces and the torques if
you're not thinking about well you have
different types of body structure you're
gonna design to you know what you're
used to oh this fits my all the folks in
my lab right so think about it from the
very beginning it's important what about
sort of algorithms that train on data
kind of thing the sadly our society
already has a lot of negative bias and
so if we collect a lot of data even if
it's a balanced weight that's going to
contain the same bias that a society
contains and so yeah was is there is
there things there that bother you
yeah so you actually said something you
ain't said how
we have biases but hopefully we learn
from them and we become better right and
so that's where we are now right so the
data that we're collecting is historic
it's so it's based on these things when
we knew it was bad to discriminate but
that's the data we have and we're trying
to fix it now but we're fixing it based
on the data that was used in the first
place most right and so and so the
decisions and you can look at everything
from the hope the whole aspect of
predictive policing criminal recidivism
there was a recent paper that had the
healthcare algorithms which had kind of
a sensational titles I'm not pro
sensationalism in titles but um but you
read it right so yeah make sure read it
but I'm like really like what's the
topic of the sensationalism I mean
what's underneath it what if you could
sort of educate me and what kind of bias
creeps into the healthcare space yes so
he's already kind of oh this one was the
headline was racist AI algorithms okay
like okay that's totally a clickbait
title yeah oh and so you looked at it
and so there was data that these
researchers had collected I believe I
want to say was either science or nature
he just was just published but they
didn't have the sensational tiger
it was like the media and so they had
looked at demographics I believe between
black and white women right and they
were showed that there was a discrepancy
in in the outcomes right and so and it
was tied to ethnicity tied to race the
piece that the researchers did actually
went through the whole analysis but of
course I mean they're the journalists
with AI a problematic across the board
rights sake and so this is a problem
right and so there's this thing about
oai it has all these problems we're
doing it on historical data and the
outcomes aren't even based on gender or
ethnicity or age but I am always saying
is like yes
we need to do better right we need to do
better it is our duty to do better but
the worst AI is still better than us
like like you take the best of us and
we're still worse than the worst AI at
least in terms of these things and
that's actually not discussed right and
so I think and that's why the
sensational title right and it's so it's
like so then you can have individuals go
like oh we don't need to use this hey
I'm like oh no no no no I want the AI
instead of the the doctors that provided
that data cuz it's still better than
that yes right I think it's really
important to linger on the idea that
this AI is racist it's like well
compared to what sort of the we that I
think we set unfortunately way too high
of a bar for AI algorithms and in the
ethical space where perfect is I would
argue probably impossible then if we set
the bar of perfection essentially if it
has to be perfectly fair whatever that
means
is it means we're setting it up for
failure but that's really important to
say what you just said which is well
it's still better yeah and one of the
things I I think that we don't get
enough credit for just in terms of as
developers is that you can now poke at
it right so it's harder to say you know
is this hospital is the city doing
something right until someone brings in
a civil case right well were they I it
can process through all this data and
say hey yes there there's some an issue
here but here it is we've identified it
and then the next step is to fix it I
mean that's a nice feedback loop versus
like waiting for someone to sue someone
else before it's fixed right and so I
think that power we need to capitalize
on a little bit more right instead of
having the sensational titles have the
okay
this is a problem and this is how we're
fixing it and people are putting money
to fix it because we can make it better
now you look at like facial recognition
how joy she basically called out
the companies and said hey and most of
them were like Oh embarrassment and the
next time it had been fixed right it had
been fixed better right and then I was
like oh here's some more issues and I
think that conversation then moves that
needle to having much more fair and
unbiased and ethical aspects as long as
both sides the developers are willing to
say okay I hear you yes we are going to
improve and you have other developers
are like you know hey AI it's wrong
but I love it right yes so speaking of
this really nice notion that AI is maybe
flawed but better than humans
so just made me think of it one example
of flawed humans is our political system
do you think or you said judicial as
well do you have a hope for AI sort of
being elected for president or running
our Congress or being able to be a
powerful representative of the people
so I mentioned and I truly believe that
this whole world of AI is in
partnerships with people and so what
does that mean I I don't believe or and
maybe I just don't I don't believe that
we should have an AI for president but I
do believe that a president should use
AI as an adviser right like if you think
about it every president has a cabinet
of individuals that have different
expertise that they should listen to
right like that's kind of what we do and
you put smart people with smart
expertise around certain issues and you
listen I don't see why a I can't
function as one of those smart
individuals giving input so maybe
there's an AI on health care maybe
there's an AI on education and right
like all these things that a human is
processing right because at the end of
the day there's people that are human
that are going to be at the end of the
decision and I don't think as a world as
a culture as
xiety that we would totally be and this
is us like this is some fallacy about us
but we need to see that leader that
person as human and most people don't
realize that like leaders have a whole
lot of advice right like when they say
something is not that they woke up well
usually they don't wake up in the
morning and be like I have a brilliant
idea
right it's usually a ok let me listen I
have a brilliant idea but let me get a
little bit of feedback on this like ok
and then it's saying yeah that was an
awesome idea or it's like yeah let me go
back already talked to a bunch of them
but are there some possible solutions to
the biases presence in our algorithms
beyond what we just talked about so I
think there's two paths one is to figure
out how to systematically do the
feedback in corrections so right now
it's ad hoc right it's a researcher
identify some outcomes that are not
don't seem to be fair right they publish
it they write about it and the either
the developer or the companies that have
adopted the algorithms may try to fix it
right and so it's really ad hoc and it's
not systematic there's it's just it's
kind of like I'm a researcher that seems
like an interesting problem which means
that there's a whole lot out there
that's not being looked at right because
it's kind of researcher driven I and I
don't necessarily have a solution but
that process I think could be done a
little bit better
one way is I'm going to poke a little
bit at some of the corporations right
like maybe the corporations when they
think about a product they should
instead of in addition to hiring these
you know bug they give these oh yeah
yeah yeah wait you think Awards when you
find a bug yeah yes Joey bug yeah you
know let's let's put it like we will
give the whatever the award is that we
give for the people who finally secure
holls find an ethics hole right like
find an unfairness hole and we will pay
you X for each one you find I mean why
can't they do that one is a win-win they
show that they're concerned about it
that this is important and they don't
have to necessarily dedicate it their
own like internal resources and it also
means that everyone who has like their
own bias lens like I'm interested in age
and so I'll find the ones based on age
and I'm interested in gender and right
which means that you get like all of
these different perspectives but you
think of it in a data-driven way so like
go see sort of if we look at a company
like Twitter it gets it's under a lot of
fire for discriminating against certain
political beliefs correct and sort of
there's a lot of people this is the sad
thing because I know how hard the
problem is and I know the Twitter folks
are working with a heart at it even
Facebook that everyone seems to hate I
worked in really hard of this it you
know the kind of evidence that people
bring is basically anecdotal evidence
well me or my friend all we said is X
and for that we got banned and and
that's kind of a discussion of saying
well look that's usually first of all
the whole thing is taken out of context
so they're they present sort of
anecdotal evidence and how are you
supposed to as a company in a healthy
way have a discourse about what is and
isn't ethical what how do we make
algorithms ethical when people are just
blowing everything like they're outraged
about a particular and a godel evident
piece of evidence that's very difficult
to sort of contextualize in the big
data-driven way
do you have a hope for companies like
Twitter and yeah so I think there's a
couple of things going on right first
off the remember this whole aspect of we
are becoming reliant on technology
we're also becoming reliant on a lot of
these the the apps and the resources
that are provided right so some of it is
kind of anger like I need you right and
you're not working for me
but I think and so some of it and I and
I wish that there was a little bit of
change and rethinking so some of it is
like oh we'll fix it in house no that's
like okay I'm a fox and I am going to
watch these hens because I think it's a
problem that foxes eat hens No right
like use like be good citizens and say
look we have a problem and we are
willing to open ourselves up for others
to come in and look at it and not try to
fix it in house because if you fix it in
house there's conflict of interests if I
find something I'm probably going to
want to fix it and hopefully the media
won't pick it up right and that then
caused this distrust because someone
inside is going to be mad at you and go
out and talk about how yeah they can the
resume survey because it's rightly the
best people like just say look we have
this issue community help us fix it and
we will give you like you know the bug
finder fee if you do did you have a hope
that the community us as a human
civilization on the whole is good and
can be trusted to guide the future of
our civilization into positive direction
I think so so I'm an optimist right and
you know we there were some dark times
in history always I think now we're in
one of those dark times I truly do and
which aspect the polarization and it's
not just us right so if it was just us
I'd be like yeah say us thing but we're
seeing it like worldwide this
polarization and so I worry about that
but I do fundamentally believe that at
the end of the day people are good right
and why do I say that because any time
there's a scenario where people are in
danger and I would use I saw Atlanta we
had Snowmageddon and people can laugh
about that people at the time so the
city closed for you know little snow but
it was ice and the city closed down but
you had people opening up their homes
and saying hey you have nowhere to go
come
to my house right hotels were just
saying like sleep on the floor like
places like you know the grocery stores
were like hey here's food there was no
like oh how much are you gonna pay me it
was like this such a community and like
people who didn't know each other
strangers were just like can I give you
a ride home and that was a point I was
like you know I like that that there
reveals that the deeper thing is is
there's a compassion or love that we all
have within us it's just that when all
that is taken care of and get bored
we love drama and that's I think almost
like the division is the sign of the
time is being good is that it's just
entertaining under some unpleasant
mammalian level to watch to disagree
with others and Twitter and Facebook are
actually taking advantage of that in the
sense because it brings you back to the
platform and their advertisers are
driven so they make a lot of money love
doesn't sell quite as well in terms of
advertisement so you've started your
career NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory
but before I'd ask a few questions there
have you happen to have ever seen Space
Odyssey 2001 Space Odyssey yes okay do
you think Hal 9000 so we're talking
about ethics do you think how did the
right thing by taking the priority of
the mission over the lives of the
astronauts do you think Cal is good or
evil easy questions yeah
Hal was misguided you're one of the
people that would be in charge of an
algorithm like Hal yes so how would you
do better if you think about what
happened was there was no failsafe right
so we perfection right like what is that
I'm gonna make something that I think is
perfect but if my assumptions are wrong
it'll be perfect based on the wrong
assumptions all right that's something
that you don't know until you deploy and
like oh yeah messed up but what that
means is that when we design software
such as in Space Odyssey when we put
things out that there has to be a
failsafe there has to be the ability
that once it's out there you know we can
grade it as an F and it fails and it
doesn't continue right if there's some
way that it can be brought in and and
removed and that's aspect because that's
what happened with what how it was like
assumptions were wrong
it was perfectly correct based on those
assumptions and there was no way to
change change it change the assumptions
at all and the change the fallback would
be to humans so you ultimately think
like humans should be you know it's not
Turtles or AI all the way down it's at
some point there's a human that actually
don't think that and again because I do
human robot interaction I still think
the human needs to be part of the
equation at some point so what just
looking back what are some fascinating
things in robotic space that NASA was
working at the time or just in general
what what have you gotten to play with
and what are your memories from working
at NASA yes so one of my first memories
was they were working on a surgical
robot system that could do eye surgery
right and this was back in oh my gosh it
must have been Oh maybe 92 93 94 so it's
like almost like a remote operation oh
yeah it was it was a remote operation in
fact that you can even find some old
tech reports on it so think of it you
know like now we have da Vinci right
like think of it but these are like the
late 90s right and I remember going into
the lab one day and I was like what's
that right and of course it wasn't
pretty right because the technology but
it was like functional and you had as
this individual that could use version
of haptics
to actually do the surgery and they had
this mock-up of a human face and like
the eyeballs
you can see this little drill and I was
like oh that one I vividly remember
because it was so outside of my like
possible thoughts of what could be done
the kind of precision and uh hey what
what's the most amazing of a thing like
that I think it was the precision it was
the kind of first time that I had
physically seen this robot machine human
interface right versus because
manufacturing have been you saw those
kind of big robots right but this was
like oh this is in a person there's a
person in a robot like in the same space
the meeting them in person I like for me
it was a magical moment that I can't as
a life-transforming that I recently met
spot mini from Boston Dynamics Elysee I
don't know why but on the human robot
interaction for some reason I realized
how easy it is to anthropomorphize and
it was I don't know it was uh it was
almost like falling in love this feeling
of meeting and I've obviously seen these
or was a lot on video and so on but
meeting in person just having that
one-on-one time it's different so do you
have you had a robot like that in your
life that was made you maybe fall in
love with robotics sort of odds like
meeting in person I mean I mean I I
loved robotics yeah that was a 12 year
old like I would be a roboticist
actually was I called it cybernetics but
so my my motivation was Bionic Woman I
don't know if you know that is um and so
I mean that was like a seminal moment
but I didn't me like that was TV right
like it wasn't like I was in the same
space and I meant I was like oh my gosh
you're like real just linking I'm Bionic
Woman which by the way because I've read
that about you I watched a bit bits of
it and it's just so no offence terrible
I've seen a couple of reruns lately it's
uh but of course at the time is probably
disgusted the imagination
especially when you're younger just
catch you but which aspect did you think
of it you mentioned cybernetics did you
think of it as robotics or did you think
of it as almost constructing artificial
beings like is it the intelligent part
that that captured your fascination or
was it the whole thing like even just
the limbs and just so for me it would
have in another world I probably would
have been more of a biomedical engineer
because what fascinated me was the by on
it was the parts like the Bionic parts
the limbs those aspects of it are you
especially drawn to humanoid or
human-like robots I would say human-like
not humanoid right and when I say
human-like I think it's this aspect of
that interaction whether it's social and
it's like a dog right like that's
human-like because it's understand us it
interacts with us at that very social
level - you know humanoids are part of
that but only if they interact with us
as if we are human but just to linger on
NASA for a little bit what do you think
maybe if you have other memories but
also what do you think is the future of
robots in space will mention how but
there's incredible robots and NASA's
working on in general thinking about in
art as we venture out human civilization
ventures out into space what do you
think the future of robots is there yes
so I mean there's the near term for
example they just announced the the
rover that's going to the moon which you
know that's kind of exciting but that's
like near-term you know my favorite
favorite favorite series is Star Trek
right you know I really hope and even
Star Trek like if I calculate the years
I wouldn't be alive but I would really
really love to be in that world like
even if it's just at the beginning like
you know like voyage
like adventure one so basically living
in space yeah with what what robots
would a robots do data were roll the
data would have to be even though that
wasn't you know that was like later but
so data is a robot that has human-like
qualities right without the emotion ship
yeah you don't like emotion well they
know what the emotion ship was kind of a
mess right it took a while for for that
thing to adapt but and and so why was
that an issue the issue is is that
emotions make us irrational agents
that's the problem and yet he could
think through things even if it was
based on an emotional scenario right
based on pros and cons but as soon as
you made him emotional one of the
metrics he used for evaluation was his
own emotions not people around him right
like and so we do that as children right
so we're very egocentric we're very
egocentric and so isn't that just an
early version of the emotion ship then I
haven't watched much Star Trek I have
also met adults right and so that is
that is a developmental process and I'm
sure there's a bunch of psychologists
that can go through like you can have a
six-year-old dolt who has the emotional
maturity of a ten-year-old right and so
there's various phases that people
should go through in order to evolve and
sometimes you don't so how much
psychology do you think a topic that's
rarely mentioned in robotics but how
much the psychology come to play when
you're talking about HRI human robot
interaction when you have to have robots
that actually interact with you tons so
we like my group as well as I read a lot
in the cognitive science literature as
well as the psychology literature
because they understand a lot about
human human relations and developmental
milestones
things like that and so we tend to look
to see what what's been done out there
sometimes what we'll do is we'll try to
match that to see is that human human
relationship the same as human robot
sometimes it is and sometimes is
different and then when it's different
we have to we try to figure out okay why
is it different in this scenario but
it's the same in the other scenario
right and so we try to do that quite a
bit would you say that's if we're
looking at the future of human robot
interaction would you say the psychology
piece is the hardest like if it's I mean
it's a funny notion for you as I don't
know if you consider yeah I mean one way
to ask it do you consider yourself for
roboticist or psychologists oh I
consider myself a robot is's that plays
the act of a psychologist but if you
were look at yourself sort of you know
20 30 years from now do you see yourself
more and more wearing the psychology hat
another way to put it is are the hard
problems in human robot interactions
fundamentally psychology or is it still
robotics the perception of manipulation
planning all that kind of stuff it's
actually neither the hardest part is the
adaptation in the interaction so
learning it's the interface it's the
learning and so if I think of like I've
become much more of a roboticist /ai
person then when I like originally again
I was about the bionics I was looking I
was electrical engineer I was control
theory right like and then I started
realizing that my algorithms needed like
human data right and so that I was like
okay what is this human thing but how do
I incorporate human data and then I
realized that human perception had there
was a lot in terms of how we perceived
the world it's so trying to figure out
how do i model human perception for my
and so I became a HRI person human robot
interaction person from being a control
theory and realizing that humans
actually offered quite a bit and then
when you do that you become one more of
artificial intelligence AI and so I see
myself evolving more in this AI world
under the lens of robotics
having Hardware interacting with people
so you're a world-class expert
researcher in robotics and yet others
you know there's a few it's a small but
fierce community of people but most of
them don't take the journey into the h
of HR I into the human so why did you
brave into the interaction with humans
it seems like a really hard problem it's
a hard problem and it's very risky as an
academic yes and I knew that when I
started down that journey that it was
very risky as an academic in this world
that was nuanced it was just developing
we didn't have a conference right at the
time because it was the interesting
problems that was what drove me it was
the fact that I looked at what interests
me in terms of the application space and
the problems and that pushed me into
trying to figure out what people were
and what humans were and how to adapt to
them if those problems weren't so
interesting I'd probably still be
sending Rovers to glaciers right but the
problems were interesting and the other
thing was that they were hard right so
it's I like having to go into a room and
being like I don't know and then going
back and saying okay I'm gonna figure
this out I do not I'm not driven when I
go in like oh there are no surprises
like I don't find that satisfying if
that was the case I go someplace and
make a lot more money right I think I
stay in academic because and choose to
do this because I can go into a room
like that's hard yeah I think just for
my perspective maybe you can correct me
on it but if I just look at the field of
AI broadly it seems that human robot
interaction
has the most one of the most number of
open problems people especially relative
to how many people are willing to
acknowledge that there are this because
most people are just afraid of the human
so they don't even acknowledge how many
open problems are but it's a in terms of
difficult problems to solve exciting
spaces it seems to be an incredible for
that it is it is exciting
you mentioned trust before what role
does trust from interacting with
autopilot to in the medical context what
role distress playing the human robot
trap so some of the things I study in
this domain is not just trust but it
really is over trust how do you think
about over traffic what is for so what
is what is trust and what is overdressed
basically the way I look at it is trust
is not what you click on a survey just
this is about your behavior so if you
interact with the technology based on
the decision are the actions of the
technology as if you trust that decision
then you're trusting right and I mean
even in my group we've done surveys that
you know on the thing do my you trust
robots
of course not would you follow this
robot in a burning building of course
not right and then you look at their
actions and you're like clearly your
behavior does not match what you think
right or which you think you would like
to think right and so I'm really
concerned about the behavior because
that's really at the end of the day when
you're in the world that's what will
impact others around you it's not
whether before you went onto the street
you you clicked on like I don't trust
self-driving cars you know that from an
outsider perspective it's always
frustrating to me well I read a lot so
I'm Insider in a certain philosophical
sense the it's frustrating to me how
often Trust is used in surveys and how
people say make claims that have any
kind of finding they make about somebody
clicking on answer you just trust is uh
yet behavior just you said it beautiful
I mean the action your own behavior as
is what Trust is I mean that everything
else is not even close
it's almost like a absurd comedic poetry
that you weave around your actual
behavior so some people can say they're
they their trust
you know I trough trust my wife husband
or not whatever but the actions is what
speaks volumes but their car probably
don't I trust them I'm just making sure
no no that's
yeah it's like even if you think about
cars I think it's a beautiful case I
came here at some point I'm sure on
either Oberer lift right I remember when
it first came out I I bet if they had
had a survey would you get in the car
with a stranger and pay them yes how
many people do you would think would
have said like really you know wait even
worse would you get in the car with a
stranger at 1:00 a.m. in the morning to
have them drop you home as a single
female yeah like how many people would
say that's stupid yeah and now look at
where we are
I mean people put kids like great links
oh yeah my child has to go to school and
I yeah I'm gonna put my kid in this car
with a stranger yeah I mean it's just a
fascinating how like what we think we
think is not necessarily matching our
behavior and certainly with robots for
the tallest vehicles and and all all the
kinds of robots you work with that's
it's yeah it's the way you answer it
especially if you've never interacted
with that robot before if you haven't
had the experience you're being able to
respond correctly I know surveys is
impossible but what do you what role
does trust play in the interaction do
you think like is it good - is it good
to trust a robot what is over trust mean
what is it it's good to kind of how you
feel about autopilot currently which is
like for a roboticist perspective is
like is so very cautious yeah so this is
still an open area of research
but basically what I would like in a
perfect world is that people trust the
technology when is working a hundred
percent and people will be
hypersensitive and identify when it's
not but of course we're not there that's
that's the ideal world and but we find
is that people swing right they tend to
swing which means that if my first and
like we have some papers like first
impressions in everything is everything
right if my first instance with
technology with robotics is positive it
mitigates any risk in it correlates with
like best outcomes it means that I'm
more likely to either not see it when it
makes a mistakes or faults or I'm more
likely to forgive it and so this is a
problem because technology is not 100
percent accurate right it's not as if
it's inaccurate although it may be
perfect how do you get that first moment
right do you think there's also an
education about the capabilities and
limitations of the system do you have a
sense of how do you educate people
correctly in that first interaction
again this is this is an open-ended
problem so one of the study that
actually has given me some hope that I
were trying to figure out how to put in
robotics so there was a research study
that had showed for medical AI systems
giving information to radiologists about
you know here you need to look at these
areas on the x-ray what they found was
that when the system provided one choice
there was this aspect of either no trust
or over trust right like I'm not going I
don't believe it at all or a yes yes yes
yes and they was miss things right
instead when the system gave them
multiple choices like here are the three
even if it knew like you know it had
estimated that the top area you need to
look at was he you know someplace
on the x-ray if it gave like one plus
others the trust was maintained and the
accuracy of the entire population
increased right so basically it was a
you're still trusting the system but
you're also putting in a little bit of
like your human expertise like you're a
human decision processing into the
equation so it helps to mitigate that
over trust risk yeah so there's a
fascinating balance tough to strike I
haven't figured out again exciting open
area research exactly so what are some
exciting applications of human robot
interaction you started a company maybe
you can talk about the the exciting
efforts there but in general also what
other space can robots interact with
humans and help yeah so besides
healthcare cuz you know that's my bias
lens my other bias lens is education I
think that well one we definitely we in
the u.s. you know we're doing okay with
teachers but there's a lot of school
districts that don't have enough
teachers if you think about the
teacher-student ratio for at least
public education um in some districts
it's crazy it's like how can you have
learning in that classroom right because
you just don't have the human capital
and so if you think about robotics
bringing that in to classrooms as well
as the after-school space where they
offset some of this lack of resources
and certain communities I think that's a
good place and then turning on the other
end is using the system's then for
workforce retraining and dealing with
some of the things that are going to
come out later on of job loss like
thinking about robots and Nai systems
for retraining and Workforce Development
I think that's exciting
areas that can be pushed even more and
it would have a huge huge impact what
would you say some of the open problems
were in education so
it's a exciting so young kids and the
older folks or just folks of all ages
who need to be retrained we need to sort
of open themselves up to a whole nother
area of work what what are the problems
to be solved there how do you think
robots can help we we have the
engagement aspect right so we can figure
out the engagement that's not a what do
you mean by engagement so identifying
whether a person is focused is like that
we can figure out what we can figure out
and and there's some positive results in
this is that personalized adaptation
based on any con sense right so imagine
I think about I have an agent and I'm
working with a kid learning I don't know
algebra - in that same agent then switch
and teach some type of new coding skill
to a displacement Anik like what does
that actually look like right like
hardware might be the same content is
different to different target
demographics of engagement like how do
you do that how important do you think
personalization is in human robot
interaction and not just mechanic or
student but like literally to the
individual human being
I think personalization is really
important but a caveat is that I think
we'd be ok if we can personalize to the
group right and so if I can label you as
along some certain dimensions then even
though it may not be you specifically I
can put you in this group so the sample
size this is how they best learn this is
how they best engage even at that level
it's really important and it's because I
mean it's one of the reasons why
educating in large classrooms is so hard
right you teach too
you know the median but there's these
you know individuals that are you know
struggling and then you have highly
intelligent individuals and those are
the ones that are usually you know kind
of left out so highly intelligent
individuals may be disruptive and those
who are struggling might be you
disruptive because they're both bored
yeah and if you narrow this the
definition of the group or in the size
of the group enough you'll be able to
address their individual yeah it's not
individual needs but really gross needs
a group most important group needs right
right and that's kind of what a lot of
successful recommender systems do is
Spotify and so on say sad to believe but
I'm as a music listener probably in some
sort of large group it's very sadly
predictable been labeled yeah I've been
labeled and and successfully so because
they're able to recommend stuff that I
yeah but applying that to education
right there's no reason why it can't be
done do you have a hope for our
education system I have more hope for
workforce development and that's because
I'm seeing investments even if you look
at VC investments in education the
majority of it has lately been going to
workforce retraining right and so I
think that government investments is
increasing there's like a claim and some
of it's based on fear right like AI is
gonna come and take over all these jobs
so what are we gonna do with all these
non paying taxes that aren't coming to
us by our citizens and so I think I'm
more hopeful for that not so hopeful for
early education because it's this it's
still a who's gonna pay for it and you
won't see the results for like 16 to 18
years it's hard for people to wrap their
heads around that but on the retraining
part what are your thoughts there's a
candidate andrew yang running for
president and saying that sort of AI
automation robots universal basic income
universal basic income in order to
support us as we kind of automation
takes people's jobs and
to explore and find other means like you
have a concern of society transforming
effects of automation and robots and so
on I do I do know that AI robotics will
displace workers like we do know that
but there'll be other workers that will
be defined new jobs what I worry about
is that's not what I worry about like
we'll all the jobs go away what I worry
about is the type of jobs that will come
out right like people who graduate from
Georgia Tech will be okay right we give
them the skills they will adopt even if
their current job goes away I do worry
about those that don't have that quality
of an education right will they have the
ability the background to adapt to those
new jobs that I don't know that I worry
about which will convey even more
polarization in in our society
internationally and everywhere I worry
about that I also worry about not having
equal access to all these wonderful
things that AI can do and robotics can
do I worry about that you know people
like people like me from Georgia Tech
from say MIT will be okay right but
that's such a small part of the
population that we need to think much
more globally of having access to the
beautiful things whether it's AI and
healthcare AI and education may ion and
politics right I worry about and that's
part of the thing that you were talking
about is people that build a technology
had to be thinking about ethics have to
be thinking about access yeah and all
those things and not not just a small
small subset let me ask some
philosophical slightly romantic
questions all right but they listen to
this will be like here he goes again
okay do you think do you think one day
we'll build an AI system that we a
person can fall in love with and it
would love them back like in a movie her
for exam
yeah although she she kind of didn't
fall in love with him uh she fell in
love with like a million other people
something like that
so you're the jealous type I see we
humans at the judge yes so I do believe
that we can design systems where people
would fall in love with their robot with
their AI partner that I do believe
because it's actually and I won't I
don't like to use the word manipulate
but as we see there are certain
individuals that can be manipulated if
you understand the cognitive science
about it
right alright so I mean if you could
think of all close relationship and love
in general as a kind of mutual
manipulation that dance the human dance
I mean many patients a negative
connotation and I don't like to use that
word particularly I guess another way to
phrase is you're getting as it could be
algorithmic eyes or something it could
be the relationship building part can
yeah yeah I mean just think about it
there we have and I don't use dating
sites but from what I heard there are
some individuals that have been dating
that have never saw each other right in
fact there's a show I think that tries
to I weed out fake people like there's a
show that comes out right because like
people start faking like what's the
difference of that person on the other
end being an AI agent right and having a
communication are you building a
relationship remotely like there there's
no reason why that can't happen in terms
of human robot interaction was a what
role you've kind of mentioned what data
emotion being can be problematic if not
implemented well I suppose
what role does emotion some other
human-like things the imperfect things
come into play here for a good human
robot interaction and something like
love yes so in this case and you had
asked can i AI agent love a human back I
think they can emulate love back right
and so what does that actually mean it
just means that if you think about their
programming they
might put the other person's needs in
front of theirs and certain situations
right you look at think about it as a
return on investment like was my return
on investment as part of that equation
that person's happiness you know has
some type of you know algorithm waiting
to it and the reason why is because I
care about them right that's the only
reason right but if I care about them
and I show that then my final objective
function is length of time of the
engagement right so you can think of how
to do this actually quite easily and so
but that's not love well so that's the
thing it I think it emulates love
because we don't have a classical
definition of love right but
and we don't have the ability to look
into each other's minds to see the
algorithm and yeah I guess what I'm
getting at is is it possible that
especially if that's learned especially
if there's some mystery and black box
nature to the system how is that you
know how is it any different I was any
different and in terms of sort of if the
system says I'm cautious I'm afraid of
death and it does indicate that it loves
you another way to sort of phrase I be
curious to see what you think do you
think there'll be a time when robots
should have rights you've kind of
phrased the robot in a very roboticist
way it's just a really good way but
saying okay well there's an objective
function and I can see how you can
create a compelling human robot
interaction experience that makes you
believe that the robot cares for your
needs and even something like loves you
but what if the robot says please don't
turn me off what if the robot starts
making you feel like there's an entity
of being a soul there all right do you
think there'll be a future hopefully you
won't laugh too much of this but there
were there's they do ask for rights so I
can see a future if we don't address it
in the near term where these agents as
they adapt and learn could say hey this
should be something that's fundamental I
hopefully think that we would address it
before it gets to that point you think
so that you think that's a bad future is
like what is that a negative thing where
they ask or being discriminated against
I guess it depends on what role have
they attained at that point right and so
if I think about now careful what you
say because the robots fifty years from
when I'll be listening to this and
you'll be on TV is saying this is what
roboticists used to believe and so this
is my and as I said I have a bias lens
and my robot friends will understand
that yes but so if you think about it
and I actually put this in kind of fee
as a robot assists you don't necessarily
think of robots as human with human
rights but you could think of them
either in the category of property or
you can think of them in the category of
animals right and so both of those have
different types of rights so animals
have their own rights as as a living
being but you know they can't vote they
can't write they can be euthanized but
as humans if we abuse them we go to jail
like right so they do have some rights
that protect them but don't give them
the rights of like citizenship and then
if you think about property property the
rights are associated with the person
right so if someone vandalizes your
property or steals your property like
there are some rights but it's
associated with the person who owns that
if you think about it back in the day
and if you remember we talked about you
know how society has changed women were
property right they were not thought of
as having rights they were thought of as
property of like their yeah salting a
woman meant assaulting the property of
somebody else's butt
exactly and so what I envision is is
that we will establish some type of norm
at some point but that it might evolve
right like if you look at women's rights
now like there are some countries that
don't have and the rest of the world is
like why that makes no sense right and
so I do see a world where we do
establish some type of grounding it
might be based on property rights it
might be based on animal rights and if
it evolves that way I think we will have
this conversation at that time because
that's the way our society traditionally
has evolved beautifully puts just out of
curiosity at Anki geebo main field
robotics within robot curious eye how it
works we think robotics were all these
amazing robotics companies led created
by incredible roboticists and they've
all went out of business recently why do
you think they didn't last long
why is this so hard to run a robotics
company especially one like these which
are fundamentally HR are HRI human robot
interaction robots yeah one has a story
only one of them I don't understand and
that was on key that's actually the only
one I don't understand I don't
understand either it's you know I mean I
looked like from the outside you know
I've looked at their sheets I've looked
like the data that's oh you mean like
business-wise yeah yeah and like I look
at all I look at that data and I'm like
they seem to have like product market
fit like so that's the only one I don't
understand the rest of it was product
market fit
what's product market feel if it just
just that how do you think about it yes
so although we rethink robotics was
getting there right but I think it's
just the timing it just they're the
clock just timed out I think if they had
been given a couple more years if they
would have been okay but the other ones
were still fairly early by the time they
got into the market and so product
market fit is I have a product
that I want to sell at a certain price
are there enough people out there the
market that are willing to buy the
product at that market price for me to
be a functional viable profit bearing
company right so product market fit if
it costs you a thousand dollars and
everyone wants it and only is willing to
pay a dollar you have no product market
fit even if you could sell it for you
know it's enough for a dollar because
you can't you so hard is it for robots
sort of maybe if you look at iRobot the
company that makes Roomba vacuum
cleaners can you comment on did they
find the right product market product
fit or like are people willing to pay
for robots is also another kind of
question about iRobot in their story
right like when they first they had
enough of a runway right when they first
started they weren't doing vacuum
cleaners right they were a military
contracts primarily government contracts
designing robots yeah I mean that's what
they were that's how they started right
and they still do a lot of incredible
work there but yeah that was the initial
thing that gave him enough funding to
then try to the vacuum cleaner is what
I've been told was not like their first
rendezvous in terms of designing a
product right and so they they were able
to survive until they got to the point
that they found a a product price market
right and even with if you look at the
the Roomba the price point now is
different than when it was first
released right it was an early adopter
price but they found enough people who
were willing to defend it and I mean
though you know I forgot what their loss
profile was for the first couple of you
know years but they became profitable in
sufficient time that they didn't have to
close the doors so they found the right
there's still there's still people
willing to pay a large amount of money
so or a thousand dollars for for vacuum
cleaner unfortunately for them now that
they've proved everything out figured it
all out the other side yeah and so
that's that's the next thing right the
competition and they have quite a number
even
like there's some some products out
there you can go to you know you're up
and be like oh I didn't even know this
one existed so so this is the thing
though like with any market I I would
this is not a bad time although you know
as a roboticist its kind of depressing
but I actually think about things like
with the I would say that all of the
companies that are now in the top five
or six they weren't the first to the
stage right like Google was not the
first search engine
sorry Alta Vista right Facebook was not
the first sorry myspace right like think
about it they were not the first players
those first players like they're not in
the top five ten no fortune 500
companies right they proved they started
to prove out the market they started to
get people interested they started the
buzz but they didn't make it to that
next level but the second match right
the second batch I think might make it
to the next level do you when do you
think the the Facebook of Roja the
Facebook of Robotics sorry take that
phrase back because people deeply for
some reason I know why but it's I think
exaggerated distrust Facebook because of
the privacy concerns and so on and with
robotics one of the things you have to
make sure all the things we've talked
about is to be transparent and have
people deeply trust you to let it well
robot into their lives into their home
what do you think the second batch of
robots local is it five ten years twenty
years that will have robots in our homes
and robots in our hearts so if I think
about and because I try to follow the
the VC kind of space in terms of robotic
investments and right now I don't know
if they're gonna be successful I don't
know if this is the second batch but
there's only one batch that's focused on
like the first batch right and then
there's all these self-driving X's right
and so I don't know if they're a first
batch of something or if I
like I don't know quite where they fit
in but there's a number of companies the
co robot I'll call them Co robots that
are still getting VC investments they
some of them have some of the flavor of
like rethink robotics some of them have
some of the flavor like hurry
what's a col robot of course so
basically a robot in human working in
the same space so some of the companies
are focused on manufacturing so having a
robot and human working together in a
factory some of these Co robots are
robots and humans working in the home
working in clinics like there's
different versions of these companies in
terms of their products but they're all
so rethink robotics would be like one of
the first at least well known companies
focus on this space so I don't know if
this second if this is a second batch or
if this is still part of the first batch
that I don't know and then you have all
these other companies in this
self-driving you know space and I don't
know if that's a first batch or again a
second batch yeah so there's a lot of
mystery about this now of course it's
hard to say that this is the second
batch until it you know approves
outright correct exactly yeah we need a
unicorn yeah exactly
the why do you think people are so
afraid at least in popular culture of
legged robots like those work than
Boston Dynamics or just robotics in
general if you were to psychoanalyze
that fear what do you make of it and
should they be afraid sorry so should
people be afraid I don't think people
should be afraid but with a caveat I
don't think people should be afraid
given that most of us in this world
understand that we need to change
something right so given that now things
don't change be very afraid
what which is the dimension of change
that's needed so changing of thinking
about the ramifications thinking about
like the ethics thinking about like the
conversation is going on right it's not
it's no longer a
we're gonna deploy it and forget that
you know this is a car that can kill
pedestrians that are walking across the
street right it's we're not in that
stage where a we're putting these roads
out there are people out there yes a car
could be a weapon like people are now
solutions aren't there yet but people
are thinking about this as we need to be
ethically responsible as we send these
systems out robotics medical
self-driving and military - and Miller
and military just not as often talked
about but it's really we're probably
these robots will have a significant
impact as well correct correct
right making sure that they can think
rationally even having the conversations
who should pull the trigger right but
overall you're saying if we start to
think more and more as a community about
these ethical issues people should not
be afraid yeah I don't think people
should be afraid I think that the return
on investment the impact positive impact
will outweigh any of the potentially
negative impacts
do you have worries of existential
threats of robots or AI that some people
kind of talk about and romanticize about
and then you know in those decade in the
next few decades no I don't singularity
will be an example so my concept is is
that so remember robots AI is designed
by people yes it has our values and I
always correlate this with a parent and
a child
all right so think about it as a parent
would we want we want our kids to have a
better life than us we want them to
expand we want them to experience the
world and then as we grow older our kids
think and know they're smarter and
better and more intelligent and have
better opportunities and they may even
stop listening to us they don't go out
and then kill us right like think about
it it's because we it's instilled in
them values we instilled in them this
whole aspect of community and yes even
though you're maybe smarter and more
have more money and data it's still
about this love caring relationship and
so that's what I believe so even
like you know we've created the
singularity and some archaic system back
in like 1980 that suddenly evolves the
fact is it might say I am smarter I am
sentient these humans are really stupid
but I think it'll be like yeah but I
just can't destroy that yeah for
sentimental value it's still just for to
come back for Thanksgiving dinner every
once in a while exactly this so
beautifully put you've you've also said
that the matrix may be one of your more
favorite AI related movies can you
elaborate why yeah it is one of my
favorite movies and it's because it
represents kind of all the things I
think about so there's a symbiotic
relationship between robots and humans
right that symbiotic relationship is
that they don't destroy us they enslave
us right but think about it even though
they enslaved us they needed us to be
happy right and in order to be happy
they had to create this Kruti world that
they then had to live in right that's
the whole but then there were humans
that had a choice wait like you had a
choice to stay in this horrific horrific
world where it was your fantasy and life
with all of the anomalies perfection but
not accurate or you can choose to be on
your own and like have maybe no food for
a couple of days but you were totally
autonomous and so I think of that as and
that's why so it's not necessarily us
being enslaved but I think about us
having this symbiotic relationship
robots and AI even if they become
sentient they're still part of our
society and they will suffer just as
much as us and there there will be some
kind of equilibrium that we'll have to
find some somebody out of relationship
and then you have the ethicist the
robotics folks that like no this has got
to stop I will take the other peel yeah
in order to make a difference so if you
could hang out for a day with a robot
real from
fiction movies books safely and get to
pick his or her there brain who would
you pick gotta say it's data data I was
gonna say Rosie but I don't I'm not
really interested in her brain hmm I'm
interested in data's brain data pre or
post emotion ship pre but don't you
think it'd be a more interesting
conversation post emotion ship yeah it
would be drama and I you know I'm human
I deal with drama all the time yeah but
the reason why I went to pick data's
brain is because I I could have a
conversation with him and ask for
example how can we fix this ethics
problem right and he could go through
like the rational thinking and through
that he'd also help me think through it
as well and so that's there's like these
questions fundamental questions I think
I can ask him that he would help me also
learn from and that fascinates me I
don't think there's a better place to
end it thank you so much for talking I
was an honor thank you thank you this
was fun thanks for listening to this
conversation and thank you to our
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and now let me leave you with some words
of wisdom from arthur c clarke whether
we are based on carbon quan silicon
makes no fundamental difference which
should each be treated with appropriate
respect thank you for listening and hope
to see you next time
you