Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Alex garland writer and director of many
imaginative and philosophical films from
the dreamlike exploration of human
self-destruction in the movie
annihilation to the deep questions of
consciousness and intelligence raised in
the movie ex machina which to me is one
of the greatest movies and artificial
intelligence ever made I'm releasing
this podcast to coincide with the
release of his new series called devs
that will premiere this Thursday March
5th on Hulu as part of FX on Hulu
it explores many of the themes this very
podcast is about from quantum mechanics
to artificial life to simulation to the
modern nature of power in the tech world
I got a chance to watch a preview and
loved it the acting is great Nick
Offerman especially is incredible in it
the cinematography is beautiful and the
philosophical and scientific ideas
explored are profound and for me as an
engineer and scientist were just fun to
see brought to life for example if you
watch the trailer for the series
carefully you'll see there's a
programmer with a Russian accent looking
at a screen with Python like code on it
that appears to be using a library that
interfaces with a quantum computer this
attention and technical detail on
several levels is impressive and one of
the reasons I'm a big fan of how Alex
weave science and philosophy together in
his work meeting Alex for me was
unlikely but it was life changing in
ways I may only be able to articulate in
a few years
just as meeting spot many of Boston
Dynamics for the first time planted a
seed of an idea in my mind
so did meeting Alex garland he's humble
curious intelligent and to me and
inspiration plus he's just really a fun
person to talk with about the biggest
possible questions in our universe this
is the artificial intelligence podcast
if you enjoy it
subscribe on YouTube give it five stars
on Apple podcast supported on patreon or
simply connect with me on Twitter and
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world and now here's my conversation
with Alex garland you describe the world
inside the shimmer in the movie
annihilation as dreamlike I mean that
it's internally consistent but detached
from reality that leads me to ask do you
think a philosophical question I
apologize
do you think we might be living in a
dream or in a simulation like the kind
that the shimmer creates
we human beings here today yeah I want
to sort of separate that out into two
things yes I think we're living in a
dream of sorts no I don't think we're
living in a simulation I think we're
living on a planet with a very thin
layer of atmosphere and the planet is in
a very large space and the space is full
of other planets and stars and quasars
and stuff like that and I don't think I
don't think those physical objects I
don't in the matter in that universe is
simulated I think it's there we are
definitely Soho problem is saying
definitely but in my opinion just about
that we I think it seems very like we're
living in a dream state I'm pretty sure
we are and I think that's just to do
with the nature of how we experience the
world we experience in a subjective way
and the the thing I've learned most as
I've got older in some respects is is
the degree to which reality is
counterintuitive and that the things
that are presented to us as objective
turn out not to be objective and quantum
mechanics is full of that kind of thing
but actually just day-to-day life is
full of that kind of thing as well so so
my understanding of the way the way the
brain works is you you get some
information hit your optic nerve and
then your brain makes its best guess
about what it's seeing or what it's
saying it's seeing it may or may not be
an accurate best guess it might be an
inaccurate best guess and that that gap
the best guess gap means that we are
essentially living in a subjective state
which means that we're in a dream state
so I I think you could enlarge on the
dream state in all sorts of ways but so
yes dream state no simulation would be
where I'd come down said going further
deeper into that direction
you've also described that world as
psychedelia so on that topic I'm curious
about that world on the topic of
psychedelic drugs do you see those kinds
of chemicals that modify our
option as a distortion of our perception
reality or a window into another reality
no I think what I'd be saying is that we
live in a distorted reality and then
those kinds of drugs give us a different
kind of distorted active yeah exactly
they just give an alternate Distortion
and I think that what they really do is
they give they give a distorted
perception which is a little bit more
halide to daydreams or unconscious
interests so if for some reason you're
feeling unconsciously anxious at that
moment and you take a psychedelic drug
you'll have a more pronounced unpleasant
experience and if you're feeling very
calm or or happy my have a good time but
but yeah so if I'm saying we're starting
from a premise our starting point is or
we were already in the slightly
psychedelic state you what those drugs
do is help you go further down an avenue
or it may be a slightly different Avenue
but that's what so in in a movie
annihilation the the shimmer this
alternate dreamlike state is created by
I believe perhaps an alien entity of
course everything is up to
interpretation right but do you think
there's in our world in our universe do
you think there's intelligent life out
there and if so how different is it from
us humans well one of the things I was
trying to do in annihilation was to to
offer up a form of alien life that was
actually alien because it would often
seem to me that in the way we would
represent aliens in in books or cinema
or television or well you know any one
of the sort of storytelling mediums is
we would always give them very
human-like qualities so they wanted to
teach us about galactic federations or
they wanted to eat us or they wanted our
resources like our water or they want to
enslave us or whatever it happens to be
but all of these are incredibly
human-like motivations and I was
interested in the idea of an alien
that was not in any way like us it
didn't share it maybe it had a
completely different clock speed maybe
it's way so what we're talking about
we're looking at each other we're
getting information like hits our optic
nerve our brain makes the best guess of
what we're doing sometimes it's right
something you know the thing we were
talking about before what if this alien
doesn't have an optic nerve maybe its
way of encountering the space it's in is
wholly different maybe it has a
different relationship with gravity the
basic laws of physics that operates
under might be fundamentally different
it could be a different timescale and so
on yeah or it could be the same laws it
could be the same underlying laws of
physics you know it's a machine created
it where it's it's a creature creating a
quantum mechanical way it just ends up
in a very very different place to the
one we end up in so so part of the
preoccupation with annihilation was to
come up with an alien that was really
alien and didn't give us and it didn't
give us and we didn't give it any kind
of easy connection between human and the
alien because I think it was to do with
the idea that you could have an alien
that landed on this planet that wouldn't
even know we were here and we might only
glancingly know it was here that just be
this strange point where the Venn
diagrams connected where we could sense
each other or something like that so in
the movie
first of all incredibly original view of
what an alien life would be and she said
in that sense it's a huge success let's
go inside your imagination did the alien
that alien entity know anything about
humans when it landed No so the idea is
you're both you're basically an alien
life is trying to reach out to anything
that might be able to hear its mechanism
of communication or was it simply was it
just basically they're biologists
exploring different kinds of stuff they
compete you see but this is the
interesting thing as as soon as you say
they're biologists you've done the thing
of attributing human type motivations to
it I I was trying to
free myself from anything yes like that
so all sorts of questions you might
answer about this notion or alien I
wouldn't be able to answer because I
don't know what it was or how it works
you know yeah I had I gave it some I had
some rough ideas like it had a very very
very slow clock speed and I thought
maybe the way it is interacting with
this environment is a little bit like
the way an octopus will change its color
forms around the space that it's in so
it's sort of reacting to what it's in to
an extent but the reason it's reacting
in that way is indeterminate
but it's Sobers Clark speed was slower
than our human life Clark speed are
inter but it's faster than evolution
first Laura then our solution yeah give
him the four billion years it took us to
get here then yes maybe it started eight
if you look at the human soul ization is
a single organism yeah in that sense you
know this evolution could be us you know
the evolution of the living organisms on
earth could be just a single organism
and it's kind of that's its life is the
evolution process that eventually will
lead to probably the the heat death of
the universe already something before
that I mean that's that's just an
incredible idea so you almost don't know
you've created something that you don't
even know how it works like yeah because
anytime I tried to look into how it
might work
I would then inevitably be attaching my
kind of thought processes into it and I
wanted to try and put a bubble around it
oh so no this is this is alien in its
most alien form I have no real point of
contacts so unfortunately I can't talk
to Stanley Kubrick so I'm really
fortunate to get a chance to talk to you
on this particular notion I'd like to
ask it a bunch of different ways and
we'll explore in different ways but do
you ever consider human imagination your
imagination as a window into a possible
future
and that what you're doing you're
putting that imagination on paper as a
writer and then on screen as a director
and that plants the seeds in the minds
of millions of future and current
scientists and so your imagination you
putting it down actually makes it as a
reality so it's almost like a first step
of the scientific method that you
imagining what's possible in your new
series with ex machina is actually
inspiring you know thousands of
twelve-year-olds millions of scientists
and actually creating the future of
you've imagined well all I could say is
that from my point of view it's almost
exactly the reverse because I I see that
pretty much everything I do is a
reaction to what scientists are doing I
am I'm an interested layperson and I I
feel you know this individual I feel
that the most interesting area that
humans are involved in is science I
think art is very very interesting but
the most interesting is science and
science is in a weird place because
maybe around the time Newton was a alive
if a very very interested lay person
said to themselves I want to really
understand what Newton is saying about
the way the world works with a few years
of dedicated thinking they would be able
to understand that the sort of
principles he was laying out I don't
think that's true anymore I think that
stopped being true now so I'm a pretty
smart guy and if I said to myself I want
to really really understand what is
currently the state of quantum mechanics
or string theory or or any of the sort
of branching areas of it I wouldn't be
able to I'd be intellectually incapable
of doing it because because to work in
those fields at the moment is a bit like
being an athlete I suspect you need to
start when you're 12 you know and if you
if you start in your mid-20s start
trying to understand
in your mid-twenties then you're just
never gonna catch up that's the way it
feels to me so so what I do is I try to
make myself open so the people that
you're implying maybe I would influence
it to me it's exactly the other way
around
these people are strongly influencing me
I'm thinking they're doing something
fascinating I'm concentrating and
working as hard as I can to try and
understand the implications of what they
say and in some ways often what I'm
trying to do is disseminate their ideas
into a means by which it can enter a
public conversation so so X Makana
contains lots of name checks all sorts
of existing thought experiments you know
shadows on you know Plato's cave and
Mary in the black white room and all
sorts of different long-standing thought
processes about sentience or
consciousness or subjectivity or gender
or whatever it happens to be and then
and then I'm trying to marshal that into
a narrative to say look this stuff is
interesting and it's also relevant and
this is my best shot at it so so I'm the
one being influenced in my construction
that that's fascinating of course you
would say that because you're not even
aware of your own
that's probably what Kubrick will say
too right is in describing why Hal 9000
is greater the way how 9000 is created
as you're just studying what's but the
reality when it when the specifics of
the knowledge passes through your
imagination I would argue that you're in
incorrect in thinking that you're just
disseminating knowledge that the the
very act of your imagination consuming
that science it creates something that
creates the next step
potentially creates the next step I
certainly think that's true with 2001 a
Space Odyssey I think at its best and if
it fails prove that that's true of that
it is best it plans something it's hard
describe it it inspires the the next
generation and it could be feel
dependent so your new series is more a
connection to physics quantum physics
quantum quantum mechanics quantum
computing and yet ex machina is more
artificial intelligence
I know more about AI my sense that AI is
much much earlier in its in the depth of
its understanding I would argue nobody
understands anything to the depth that
physicists do about physics in AI nobody
understands AI that there is a lot of
importance and role for imagination
which they think you know we're in that
what were Freud imagine the subconscious
we're in that stage of of AI where
there's a lot of imagination you didn't
thinking outside the box yeah it's
interesting the spread of discussions
and the spread of my anxieties that
exists about AI fascinate me the way in
which some people are some people seem
terrified about it what whilst also
pursuing it and I've never shared that
fear about AI personally but it but the
the way in which it educates people and
also the people who it agitates I find I
find kind of fascinating are you afraid
are you excited I use sad by the
possibility let's take the existential
risk of artificial intelligence by the
possibility an artificial intelligence
system becomes our offspring and makes
us obsolete I mean it's a huge huge
subject to talk about I suppose but but
one of the things I think is that humans
are actually very experienced at
creating new life-forms because that's
why you and I are both here and it's why
everyone on the planet is here and so so
something in the process of having a
living thing that exists that didn't
exist previously it's very much encoded
into the structures of our life and the
structures of our societies doesn't mean
always get it right but it does mean
we've learned quite a lot about that
we've learned quite a lot about what the
dangers are of allowing things to be
unchecked and it's why we then create
systems of checks and balances in our
government and and so on and so forth I
mean it's not say the other thing is it
seems like there's all sorts of things
that you could put into a machine that
you would not be so with us we sort of
roughly try to give some rules to live
by and some of us then live by those
rules to some don't and with a machine
it feels like you could enforce those
things so so partly because of our
previous experience and partly because
the different nature of a machine I just
don't feel anxious about it I I'm more I
just see all the good you know broadly
speaking the good that can come from it
but that that's just my that's just
where I am on that anxiety spectrum you
know it's kind of there's a sadness so
we as humans give birth to other humans
right petition in their generations and
there's often in the older generation a
sadness about what the world has become
now I mean that's kind of yeah there is
but there's a counterpoint as well which
is the most parents would wish for a
better life for their children so there
may be a regret about some things about
the past but broadly speaking what
people really want is that things will
be better for the future generations not
worse and so a and then it's a question
about what constitutes a future
generation a future generation could
involve people it also could involve
machines and it could involve a sort of
cross pollinated version of it too or
any but but none of those things make me
feel anxious and doesn't give you
anxiety it does excite you like anything
that does not anything that's new I I
don't think for example I've got I my
anxieties relate to things like social
media that so I've got plenty of
anxieties about that which is also
driven by artificial intelligence in the
sense that there's too much information
to be able to do is that an algorithm
has to filter that information and
present to you so ultimately the
algorithm a simple oftentimes simple
algorithms can
trolling the flow of information on
social media so that's another it is
yeah his but but at least my sense of it
I might be wrong but my sense of it is
that the algorithms have an either
conscious or unconscious bias which is
created by the people who are making the
algorithms and and sort of delineating
the areas to which those algorithms are
going to lean and so for example the
kind of thing I'd be worried about is
that it hasn't been thought about enough
how dangerous it is to allow algorithms
to create echo chambers say but that
doesn't seem to me to be about the AI or
the algorithm it's it's the my IVA T of
the people who are constructing the
algorithms to do that thing if you see
what I mean yes so a new series does
then we could speak more broadly there's
a let's talk about the people
constructing those algorithms which be
our modern society Silicon Valley those
algorithms happen to be a source of a
lot of income because of advertisements
okay so let me ask sort of a question
about those people are there current
concerns and failures on social media
they are naivety I can't pronounce that
word well are they naive are they I use
that word carefully but evil and intent
or misaligned and intent I think that's
a do they mean well and just go have a
unintended consequence or is there
something dark in them that that results
in them creating a company results in
that super competitive drive to be
successful and those are the people that
will end up controlling the algorithms
at a guess I'd say there are instances
of all those things so so sometimes I
think it's naivety sometimes I think
it's extremely dark and sometimes I
think people are are not being naive or
dark and and then in those instances are
sometimes generating things that are
very benign and and other times
generating things that despite their
best intentions are not very benign it's
something I think the reason why I don't
get anxious about AI high in terms of or
at least hey is that have I don't know a
relationship with some sort of
relationship with humans is that I think
that's the stuff we're quite well
equipped to understand how to mitigate
the problem is is is issues that relate
actually to the power of humans or the
wealth of humans and that's where that's
where it's dangerous here and now so so
what I see I'll tell you what I
sometimes feel about Silicon Valley is
that it's like Wall Street in the 80s it
it's rabidly capitalistic absolutely
rabidly capitalistic and it's rabidly
greedy but whereas in the 80s the sense
one had of Wall Street was that these
people kind of knew they were sharks and
in a way relished in being sharks and
dressed in sharp suits and and and kind
of lauded over other people and felt
good about doing it Silicon Valley has
managed to hide its voracious Wall
Street like capitalism behind hipster
t-shirts and you know cool cafes in the
place where they set up their and and so
that obfuscates what's really going on
what's really going on is the absolute
voracious pursuit of money and power so
so that that's where I get shaky for me
so that veneer and you explore that
brilliantly that veneer of virtue that
Silicon Valley has which they believe
themselves I'm sure so okay I I hope to
be one of those people and I believe
that so as a maybe a devil's advocate
term poorly used in this case
what if some of them really are trying
to build a better world
I can't I'm sure I think some of them
are I think I've spoken to once who I
believe in their heart feel they're
building a better work are they not able
to no no no they may or may not be but
it's just a zone with a lot of
flying about and there's also another
thing which is that this actually goes
back to I always thought about some
sports that later turned out to be
corrupt in the way that the sport like
who won the boxing match or how a
football match got thrown or cricket
match or whatever happened to me and I
used to think well look if there's a lot
of money and there really is a lot of
money people stand to make millions or
even billions you will find a corruption
that's gonna happen so so it's it's in
the nature of its of its voracious
appetite that some people will be
corrupt and some people will exploit and
some people will exploit whilst thinking
they're doing something good but there
are also people who I think are very
very smart and very benign and actually
very self-aware and so I'm not I'm not
trying to I'm not trying to wipe out the
motivations of this entire area but I do
it there are people in that world who
scare the hell out of me yeah sure yeah
I'm a little bit naive and that like I
it I don't care at all about money and
so I'm uh you you might be one of the
good guys yeah but so the thought is but
I don't have money so my thought is if
you give me a billion dollars I would it
would change nothing and I would spend
it right away on on investing it right
back and creating a good world but your
intuition is that billion there's
something about that money that maybe
slowly corrupt the people around you
there's somebody gets in that corrupts
your souls of you the way you view the
world money does corrupt
we know that but but there's a different
sort of problem aside from just the
money corrupts you know thing that we're
familiar with in throughout history and
it's it's more
about the sense of reinforcement an
individual gets which is so it
effectively works like the reason I
earned all this money and so much more
money than anyone else is because I'm
very gifted I'm actually a bit smarter
than they are or I'm a lot smarter than
they are and I can see the future in the
way they can't and maybe some of those
people are not particularly smart
they're very lucky or they're very
talented entrepreneurs and there's a
difference between it so in other words
the the the acquisition of the money and
power can suddenly start to feel like
evidence of virtue yes and it's not
evidence of virtue it might be evidence
of completely different things as
brilliantly put yeah yeah yeah that's
brilliant put like so I think one of the
fundamental drivers of my current
morality let me just represent nerds in
general the of all kinds is of constant
self-doubt and the signals you know I'm
very sensitive to signals from people
that tell me I'm doing the wrong thing
but when there's a huge inflow of money
it's you're there you just put it
brilliantly that that could become an
overpowering signal that everything you
do is right and so your moral compass
can just get thrown off yeah and it's
that that is not contained to Silicon
Valley that's across the board in
general yeah like I said I'm from Soviet
Union the current president is convinced
I believe actually he is he wants to do
really good by the country and by the
world but his moral clock may be our
compass may be off because yeah I mean
it's the interesting thing about evil
which is the I think most people who do
spectacularly evil things think
themselves they're doing really good
things that they're not they're thinking
I am a sort of incarnation of Satan
they're thinking yeah I've seen a way to
fix the world and everyone else is wrong
here I go in fact I uh I'm having a
fascinating conversation with a
historian of Stalin and he took power is
what he actually
got more power than almost any person in
history and he wanted he didn't want
power
he just wanted he truly and this is what
people don't realize he truly believed
that communism will make for a better
world absolutely and he wanted power he
wanted to destroy the competition to
make sure that we actually made
communism work in the Soviet Union and
that spread it across the world he was
trying to do good I think it's it's
typically the case yeah that that's what
people think they're doing and I think
that but you don't need to go to Stalin
I mean Stalin sure I think Stalin but
probably got pretty crazy but actually
that's another part of it which is that
the other thing that comes from being
convinced of your own virtues that then
you stop listening to the modifiers
around you and that tends to drive
people crazy it's it's other people that
keep us sane and if you stop listening
to them I think you go be mad so that
that also that's funny a disagreement
keeps us saying to jump back for an
entire generation of AI researchers 2001
a Space Odyssey put an image the idea of
human level superhuman level
intelligence into their mind do you ever
sort of jumping back to ex machina and
talk a little bit about that you ever
consider the audience of people who you
who are build the system's the robot
assisted scientists that build the
systems based on the stories you create
which I would argue I mean there's
literally most of the top researchers
about 40 50 years old and plus you know
that's their favorite movie 2001 Space
Odyssey and it really is in their work
their idea of what ethics is of what is
the target the hope the dangers of AI is
that movie yeah right do you ever
consider the the impact on those
researchers when you create the the work
you do certainly not with Xbox in
relation to 2001 because I'm not sure I
mean I'd be pleased if there was but I'm
not sure in a way there isn't a
fundamental
discussion of issues to do with AI that
isn't already and better dealt with by
2001 2001 does a very very good account
of of the way in which an AI might think
and also potential issues with the way
the AI might think and also then a
separate question about whether the AI
is malevolent or benevolent and 2001
doesn't really is it's a slightly odd
thing to be making a film when you know
there's a pre-existing film which is not
a really super job but there's a
questions of consciousness embodiment
and also the same kinds of questions
could you because those are my two
favorite AI movies so can you compare
how all 9000 and Ava how 9,000 from 2001
Space Odyssey na or from ex machina the
in your view from a philosophical
perspective they've got different goals
the to a eyes have completely different
guy I think that's really the difference
so in some respects ex machina took as a
premise how do you assess whether
something else has consciousness so it
was a version of the Turing test except
instead of having the machine hidden you
you put the machine in plain sight in
the way that we are in plain sight of
each other and say now assess the
consciousness and a way it was
illustrating the the the way in which
you'd assess the state of consciousness
of a machine is this exactly the same
way we assess the state of consciousness
of each other and in exactly the same
way that in a funny way your sense of my
consciousness is is actually based
primarily on your own consciousness that
is also then true with the machine and
and so it was actually about how much of
the sense of consciousness is a
projection rather than something that
consciousness is actually containing and
Plato's cave I mean this view really
explored you could argue that how sort
of space odyssey explores idea of the
Turing test for intelligence or not test
there's no test but it's more focused on
intelligence and ex machina kind of goes
around intelligence and says the
consciousness of the human do you
humanure by interactions more
interesting more important more at least
the focus of that particular particular
movie yeah it's about the interior state
and and what constitutes the interior
state and how do we know it's there and
actually in that respect ex machina is
as much about consciousness in general
as it is to do specifically with machine
consciousness yes and it's also
interesting you know thing you started
asking about the dream state and I was
saying well I think we're all in a dream
state because we're all in a subjective
state yeah one of the things that I
became aware of with ex machina is that
the way in which people reacted to the
film was very based on what they took
into the film so many people thought
xmax magnet was a stet was the tale of a
sort of evil robot who murders two men
and escapes and she has no empathy for
example because she's a machine
whereas I felt no she was a conscious
being with a consciousness different
from mine but so what
imprisoned and made a bunch of value
judgments about how to get out of that
box and there's a moment which is sort
of slightly bugs me but nobody ever has
noticed in its years after so I might as
well say it now which is that after Ava
has escaped she crosses a room and has
she's crossing a room this is just
before she leaves the building she looks
over her shoulder and she smiles and I
thought after all the conversation about
tests but in a way the best indication
you could have of the interior state of
someone is if they are not being
observed and they smile about something
with they're smiling for themselves
and that to me was evidence of Ava's
true sentience whatever that sentience
was but those really interesting she we
don't get to observe a ver much or or
something like a smile in any context
except through interaction trying to
convince others that she's conscious
that's beautiful yeah exactly yeah but
it was a small it in a funny way I think
maybe people
saw it as an evil smile like ha yeah I
fooled them but actually it was just a
smile and I thought well in the end
after all the conversations about the
test that was the answer to the test and
then off she goes so if we align if we
just deliver it a little a little bit
longer on hell and Ava do you think in
terms of motivation what was how's
motivation is how good or evil is Ava
good or evil
Ava's good in my opinion and how is
neutral because I don't think how is
presented as having a sophisticated
emotional life he has a set of paradigms
which is that the mission needs to be
completed I mean it's a version of the
paperclip yeah you know the idea there
is just it's a super intelligent machine
but it's just performing a particular
task
yeah and in doing that tasks may destroy
everybody on earth or may may achieve
undesirable effects for us humans
precisely
but what if okay at very end you said
something like I'm afraid Dave but that
that maybe he is on some level
experiencing fear or it may be this is
the terms in which it would be wise to
stop someone from doing the thing
they're doing if you see what it means
yes absolutely so it actually has funny
so that's such of this is such a small
short exploration of consciousness that
I'm afraid
and then you just with ex machina say
okay we're going to magnify that part
and then minimize the other part so
that's that's a good way to sort of
compare the two but if you could just
use your imagination and if Ava sort of
I don't know ran the Quran easy was
President of the United States also has
some power so what kind of world which
you want to create if we here's you kind
of say good and there is a sense that
she has a really like I think there's a
desire for better
human to human interaction human robot
interaction in her but what kind of
world do you think she would create with
that desire she also really it's a very
interesting question that I'm gonna
approach it slightly obliquely
which is the if if a friend of yours got
stabbed in a mugging and you then felt
very angry at the person who'd done the
stabbing but then you learned that it
was a fifteen year old and the 15 year
old both their parents redic today
crystal meth and the kid had been
addicted since he was 10 and he really
never had any hope in the world and he'd
been driven crazy by his upbringing and
did the stabbing that would hugely
modify and it would also make you worry
about that kid then becoming president
of America right and Ava has had a very
very distorted introduction into the
world so although there's nothing as it
as it were organically within Ava that
would lean her towards badness it's not
the robots or sentient robots are bad
she did not her arrival into the world
was being imprisoned by humans so I'm
not sure she'd be a great present the
trajectory through which she arrived at
her moral views you have some dark
elements then but I like ever personally
I like over and I think vote for her I'm
having difficulty finding anyone to vote
right now in my country or if I lived
here in yours
I am so that's a yes I guess because the
competition she could easily do a better
job than any of the people I'd worked
her over Boris Johnson so what is a good
test of consciousness just can we talk
about consciousness a little bit more if
something appears conscious is it
conscious he mentioned the smile which
is seems to be something done I mean
that's a really good indication because
it's
a tree falling in the forest with nobody
there to hear it but does the appearance
from a robotics perspective of
consciousness mean consciousness - you
know I I don't think you could say that
fully because I think you could then
easily have a thought experiment which
said we will create something which we
know is not conscious but is going to
give a very very good account of seeming
conscious and so and and also it would
be a particularly bad test where humans
are involved because humans are so quick
to project sentience into things that
don't have sentience so someone could
have their computer playing up and feel
as if their computer is being malevolent
to them when it clearly isn't and so so
of all the things to judge consciousness
us humans are better
we're empathy machines so that so the
flipside of that the argument there is
because we just attribute consciousness
to everything almost and
anthropomorphize everything including
Roombas the that maybe consciousness is
not real that would just attribute
consciousness to each other so you have
a sense that there is something really
special going on in our mind that makes
us unique and gives us the subjective
experience there's something very
interesting going on in our minds I'm
slightly worried about the word special
because it it gets a bit it nudges
towards metaphysics and maybe even magic
in I mean in some ways something magic
like which I don't think is there at all
I mean if you think about there's an
idea of called pants like ism that says
consciousness is in everything whatever
but as brother yeah so the idea that
that there is a thing that it would be
like to be the son yeah no I don't buy
that I think that consciousness is a
thing did my sort of broad modification
is that usually the more I find out
about things the more illusory our
instinct is and is leading us into a
different direction about what that
thing actually is that that happens it's
in modern science that happens a hell of
a lot whether it's to do with how even
how big or small things are so so my
sense is that consciousness is a thing
but it isn't quite the thing or maybe
very different from the thing that we
instinctively think it is so it's there
it's very interesting but we may be in
it's sort of quite fundamentally
misunderstanding it for reasons that are
based on intuition so I have to ask this
is this kind of an interesting question
the ex machina for many people including
myself is one of the greatest AI films
ever made
well it's number two for me thanks yeah
number one I'd really have to was anyway
yeah whenever you grow up with something
right you may grow up for something it's
it's an it's in the wood but there's uh
one of the things that people bring up
and can't please everyone including
myself this is what I first reacted to
the film is the idea of the lone genius
this is the the criticism that people
say sort of me as an AI researcher I'm
trying to create what what what nathan
is trying to do so there's a brilliant
series called Chernobyl yes this one
tested how so you spec talk I think I
mean as eyes are I mean they got so many
things brilliant right but one of the
things again the criticism there yeah
great nice place with lots of people who
need your one character that represents
all nuclear scientists you wanna comb
yet you know it's a composite character
that presents all scientists is this
what you were is this the way you were
thinking about that or is it just
simplifies the storytelling how do you
think about the lone genius well I'd say
this the series I'm doing at the moment
is a critique in part of the lone genius
concept
so yes I'm sort of oppositional and
either agnostic or atheistic about that
as a concept I mean they're not entirely
you know where the lone lone is the
right word broadly isolated but Newton
clearly
exists in a sort of bubble of himself in
some respect such as Shakespearean do
you think we would have an iPhone
without Steve Jobs I mean how much Steve
Jobs clearly isn't alone genius because
because there's too many other people in
the sort of superstructure around him
who are absolutely fundamental to to
that journey are you saying Newton but
that's a scientific so there's an
engineering element to building Ava but
just to say what ex machina is is really
it's a thought experiment I mean so it's
a construction of putting four people in
a house nothing about ex machina adds up
in all sorts of ways in as much as that
who built the machine parts did the
people building the machine parts know
what they were creating and how did they
get there and it's a thought experiment
yes so it doesn't it doesn't stand up to
scrutiny of that sort I don't think it's
actually that interesting of a question
but it's brought up so often that I had
to ask it because that's exactly how I
felt after what you know there's
something about there was almost a
defense I got wash your movie the first
time in at least for the first little
while in a defensive way like how dare
this person try to step into the AI
space and try to beat Kubrick that's the
way I was thinking like this because it
comes off as a movie that really is
going after the deep fundamental
questions about AI so there's a there's
a kind of a you know nerds do psyche is
automatically searching for the for the
flaws and I I decide exactly the same I
think in annihilation and the other
movie the I was be able to free myself
from that much quicker that it's a it is
a thought experiment there's you know
who cares if there's batteries that
don't run out right those kinds of
questions that's the whole point
yeah but I bits nevertheless something I
wanted to bring up it yeah it's a foot
it's the first thing to bring up for me
the you you had all the lone genius
thing for me it was actually people
always said ex machina makes this big
leap in terms of where AI has got to and
so what pay I would look like if it got
to that point there's another one which
is just robotics I mean look at the way
Ava walks around the rooms like forget
it building that it's that that's that's
also got to be a very very long way
often if you did get that would it look
anything like that it's a thought
experiment
actually it's figure we I think the way
as a ballerina Alicia vikander
brilliant actress actor that moves
around that we're very far away from
creating that but the way she moves
around is exactly the definition of
perfection for roboticist it's like
smooth and efficient so it is where we
want to get where I believe like I think
because so I hang out with a lot of like
human robotics people they love
elegant smooth motion like that that's
their dream so the way she moved is
actually what I believe that would dream
for a robot to move it might not be that
useful to move that sort of that way but
that is important the definition of
perfection in terms of movement drawing
inspiration from real life so for devs
for ex machina look at characters like
Elon Musk what do you think about the
various big technological efforts of
Elon Musk and others like him and that
he's involved with such as Tesla SpaceX
your link do you see any of any of that
technology potentially defining the
future worlds you create in your work
so Tesla's automation SpaceX is space
exploration your link is brain machine
interface somehow merger of biological
and electric systems I'm in a way I'm
influenced by that almost by definition
because that's the world I live in and
this is the thing that's happening in
that world and I also feel supportive of
it so I think I think amongst various
things Elon Musk has done I'm almost
sure he's done a very very good thing
with Tesla for all of us it's really
kicked all the other car manufacturers
interfaces kicked the fossil fuel
industry in the face and and they needed
kicking in the face and he's done it so
and and so
that's the world he's part of creating
and I live in that world just bought a
Tesla in fact and so does that play into
whatever I then make in some ways it
does partly because I try to be a writer
who quite often filmmakers are in some
ways fixated on the films they grew up
with and they sort of remake those films
in some ways I've always tried to avoid
that and so I looked at the real world
to get inspiration and as much as
possible sort of by living I think and
so so yeah I'm sure
which of the directions do you find most
exciting space trouble space travel so
you haven't really explored space travel
in your work you've said you've said
something like if you had unlimited
amount of money I think I now read at a
ma that you would make like a multi-year
series space Wars or something like that
so what what is it that excites you
about space exploration well because if
we have any sort of long-term future
it's that it just simply is that if
energy and matter are linked up in the
way we think they're linked up will run
out if we don't move so we got to move
and but but also how can we not it's
it's built into us to to do it or die
trying I was on Easter Island a few
months ago which is as I'm sure you know
in the middle of the Pacific and and
difficult for people to have got to but
they got there and I did think a lot
about the way those boats it must have
set out into something like space it was
the ocean and and how sort of
fundamental that was to the way we are
and it it's the one that most excites me
because it's the one I want most to
happen it's the thing it's the place
where we could get to is
like in a way I could live with us never
really unlocking fully unlocking the
nature of consciousness I like to know
I'm really curious but if we never leave
the solar system and if we never get
further out into this galaxy or maybe
even galaxies beyond our galaxy that
that would that feel sad to me because
because it's so limiting yeah there's
something hopeful and beautiful bar
reaching out any kind of exploration
reaching out across earth centuries ago
and reaching out into space so what do
you think about colonization of Mars so
go to Mars does that excite you the idea
of a human being stepping foot on Mars
it does it absolutely does but in terms
of what would really excite me it would
be leaving this solar system in as much
as that I just think I think we already
know quite a lot about Mars and but yes
listen if it happened that would be I
hope I say in my lifetime I really hope
I say in my lifetime I do it would be a
wonderful thing without giving anything
away but the series begins with the use
of quantum computers a new series does
begins with the use of quantum computers
to simulate basic living organisms or
actually I don't know if it's quantum
computers are used but basic living
organisms simulated on a screen and yeah
the cool kind of demo yeah that's right
they're using yes they are using a
quantum computer to simulate a nematode
pill so returning to our discussion of
simulation or thinking of the universe
as a computer do you think the universe
is deterministic is there a free will so
with the qualification of what do I know
because I'm a layman right layperson but
with big imagination thanks with that
qualification yeah I think the universe
is deterministic and I see absolutely I
I cannot see how freewill fits into that
so
so yes deterministic no free will that
would be my position and how does that
make you feel it partly makes me feel
that it's exactly in keeping
with the way these things tend to work
out which is that we have an incredibly
strong sense that we do have free will
and just as we have an incredibly strong
sense that time is a constant and turns
out probably not to be the case or
definitely in the case of time but but
but it's the the problem I always have
with free will is that it gets I can
never seem to find the place where it is
supposed to reside and yet you explore
just but a very very but we have
something we can call free will but it's
not the thing that we think it is but
free was so what we call free will is
just what they call it as the illusion
of it and that's a subjective experience
of yeah the yeah yeah which is a useful
thing to have and it partly it partly
comes down to although we live in a
deterministic universe our brains are
not very well equipped to fully
determine the deterministic universe so
we're constantly surprised and feel like
we're making snap decision decisions
based on imperfect information so that
feels a lot like freewill it just isn't
it would be might that's why I guess so
in that sense your sort of sense is that
you can unroll the universe forward or
backward and you will see the same thing
and you would I mean that notion yeah
sort of sort of but yeah sorry go ahead
I mean that notion is a bit
uncomfortable to think about that it's
good you can roll it back and and
forward and well if you were able to do
it it would certainly have to be a
quantum computer yeah something that
worked in a quantum mechanical way in
order to understand a quantum mechanical
system I I guess but but and so that
unrolling there may be a multiverse
thing where there's a bunch of branching
what will exactly because it wouldn't
follow that every time you roll it back
or forward you'd get exactly the same
result which is another thing that's
hard to rapamycin fact yeah but but but
that yes it but essentially what you
just described
that the the yes forwards and yes
backwards but you might get a slightly
different result works very different
though or very different
along the same lines well you've
explored some really deep scientific
ideas in this new series and I mean it's
just in general you're unafraid to to
ground yourself and some of the most
amazing scientific ideas of our time
what what are the things you've learned
or ideas you find beautiful mysterious
about quantum mechanics multiverse
string theory quantum computing that
you've learned well I would have to say
every single thing I've learned is
beautiful and one of the motivators for
me is that I think that people tend not
to see scientific thinking as being
essentially poetic and lyrical but but I
think that is literally exactly what it
is and I think the idea of entanglement
or the idea of superpositions or the
fact that you could even demonstrate a
superposition or have a machine that
relies on the existence of super
positions in order to function to me is
is almost indescribable beautiful I it
it it fills me with all it fills me with
awe and also it's not it's not just a
sort of grand massive or of but it's
also delicate it's very very delicate