Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with an
Julianne writer producer director and
one of the most important and impactful
communicators of science in our time she
co-wrote the 1980 science documentary
series cosmos hosted by Carl Sagan whom
she married in 1981 and her love for
whom with the help of NASA was recorded
as brainwaves on a golden record along
with other things our civilization has
to offer and launched into space on the
Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 spacecraft that
are now 42 years later still active
reaching out farther into deep space
than any human made object ever has this
was a profound and beautiful decision
and made as a creative director of
NASA's Voyager interstellar message
project in 2014 she went on to create
the second season of cosmos called
cosmos and spacetime Odyssey and in 2020
the new third season called cosmos
possible worlds which is being released
this upcoming Monday March 9th it is
hosted once again by the fun and the
brilliant Neil deGrasse Tyson Carl Sagan
Annie Julian and cosmos have inspired
millions of scientists and curious minds
across several generations by revealing
the magic the power the beauty of
science I am one such curious mind and
if you listen to this podcast you may
know that Elon Musk is as well he
graciously agreed to read Carl Sagan's
words about the pale blue dot in my
second conversation with him if you
listened there was an interesting and
inspiring twist at the end
this is the artificial intelligence
podcast if you enjoy it
subscribe on YouTube give it five stars
an apple podcast supported on patreon
I'll connect with me on Twitter at Lex
Friedman spelled Fri DM aen as usual
I'll do one or two minutes of ads now
and never any ads in the middle that can
break the flow of the conversation I
hope that works for you and doesn't hurt
the listening experience
this shows presented by cash app the
number one finance app in the App Store
when you get it use collects podcast
cash app lets you send money to friends
buy Bitcoin and invest in the stock
market with as little as one dollar
since cash app allows you to send and
receive money digitally peer-to-peer and
security in all digital transactions
it's very important let me mention the
PCI data security standard that cash app
is compliant with I'm a big fan of
standards for safety and security PCI
DSS is a good example of that where a
bunch of competitors got together and
agreed that there needs to be a global
standard around the security of
transactions now we just need to do the
same for autonomous vehicles and
artificial intelligence systems in
general so again if you get cash app
from the App Store Google Play and use
the code let's podcast you get ten
dollars and cash up will also donate ten
dollars the first one of my favorite
organizations that's helping to advance
robotics and STEM education for young
people around the world and now here's
my conversation with Ann Julianne what
is the role of Science in our society
well I think of what Einstein said when
he opened the 1939 New York World's Fair
he said if science is ever to fulfill
its mission the way art has done it must
penetrate its inner meaning must
penetrate the consciousness of everyone
and so for me especially in a
civilization dependent on high
technology and science one that
spires to be democratic it's critical
that the public has informed decision
makers understand the values and the
methods and the rules of science so you
think about the what you just mentioned
the values and the methods and the rules
and maybe the technology that science
produces but what about sort of the
beauty the mystery of science well that
you've touched on what I think is for me
that's how my way into science is that
for me it's much more spiritually
uplifting the revelations of science
collective revelations of you know
really countless generations of
searchers and a little tiny bit we know
about reality is the greatest joy from
me because I think it relates to the
idea of love like what is love that is
based on illusion about the other that's
not love love is seeing unflinching the
other and accepting with all your heart
and to me knowing the universe as it is
or the little bit that we're able to
understand at this point is like is the
purest kind of love and therefore you
know how can our philosophy our religion
if it's real isn't nature how can it
really be true I just don't understand
so I think you need science to get a
sense of the real romance of life and
the great experience of being awake in
the cosmos so that the fact that we know
so little the the humbling nature of
that so and you kind of connect the love
to that but isn't it also isn't it scary
isn't it why is it so inspiring do you
think why is it so beautiful that we
know so little
well first of all as Socrates thought
you know knowing that you know
is knowing really knowing something
knowing more than others and it's the
it's that voice whispering in our our
heads you know you might be wrong which
i think is not only it's really healthy
because we're so imperfect we're human
of course but also you know love to me
is the feeling that you always want to
go deeper get closer you can't get
enough of it you can't get close enough
deep enough so and that's what science
is always saying as science is never
simply content with its understanding of
any aspect of nature it's always saying
it's always finding that even smaller
cosmos beneath so I I think the two are
very much parallel so you said that love
is not an illusion no it's not well what
is love what is love is is knowing for
me love is is knowing something deeply
and still being completely gratified by
it you know and wanting to know more so
what is love what is loving someone a
person let's say deeply is not
idealizing them not putting some kind of
subjective projection on them but
knowing them as they are and so for me
for me the only aperture to that knowing
about nature the universe
it's science because it has that error
correcting mechanism that most of the
stuff that we do doesn't have you know
you could say the Bill of Rights is kind
of an error correcting mechanism which I
it's one of the things I really
appreciate about this society in which I
live to the extent that it's upheld and
we keep faith with it and the same with
science it's like we will give you the
highest rewards we have for proving us
wrong about something that's genius
that's that's why
that's why in only 400 years since
Galileo's first look through a telescope
we could get from this really dim fake
this big apprehension of another world
to sending our eyes and our senses there
or even going beyond so it is it is it
delivers the goods like nothing else you
know it really it delivers the goods
because it's always it's always
self-aware of its ability I'm not topic
I'd like to ask your opinion and a
feeling I have that I'm not sure what to
do with which is the the sceptical
aspect of science so the modern skeptics
community and just in general certain
scientists many scientists maybe most
scientists that apply the scientific
method are kind of rigorous in that
application and they it feels like
sometimes miss out some of the ideas
outside the reach of just slightly
outside of the reach of science and they
don't dare to sort of dream or think of
revolutionary ideas that others will
call crazy in this particular moment how
do you think about the skeptical aspect
of science that is really good at sort
of keeping us in check keeping us humble
but but at the same time sort of the
kind of dreams that you and Carl Sagan
have inspired in the world it kind of
shuts it down sometimes a little bit
yeah I mean I think it's up to the
individual but for me no I was so
ridiculously fortunate and that I my
tutorial in science because I'm not a
scientist and I wasn't trained in
science was 20 years of days and nights
with Carl Sagan and the Wonder I think
the reason Carl remains so beloved well
I think there are many reasons but at
the root of it is the fact that his
skepticism was never at the cost of his
Wonder and his Wonder was never at the
cost of his skepticism so he couldn't
fool himself into believing something he
wanted to believe
because it made him feel good at the
other but on the other hand he
recognized that what science what nature
is it's really it's good enough you know
it's way better than our fantasies yeah
and so if you if you're that kind of
person who loves happiness loves life
and your eyes are wide open and you read
everything you can get your hands on and
you spend years studying what is known
so far about the universe then you have
that capacity a really infinite capacity
to be alive but all and also at the same
time to be very rigorous about what
you're willing to believe for Carl I
don't think he ever felt that his
skepticism cost him anything because
again it comes back to luck he wanted to
know when HM really was like not to
inflict his you know preconceived
notions on what he wanted it to be so
you can't go wrong because it doesn't
you know I mean you know I think the
pale blue dot is that is a perfect
example of this of his massive
achievement is to say ok or the Voyager
record is another example is here we
have this mission our first
reconnaissance of the outer solar system
well how can we make it a mission in
which we absolutely squeeze every drop
of consciousness and understanding from
it we don't have to be scientists and
then be human beings I think that's the
tragedy of Western civilization is that
it's you know when it's one of its
greatest gifts it has been science and
yet at the same time it believing that
we are the children of a disappointed
father a tyrant who puts us in a
maximum-security prison and calls it
paradise who looks at us who watches us
every moment and hates us for
being our human selves you know and then
most of all what is our great sin its
partaking of the tree of knowledge which
is our greatest gift as humans this
pattern recognition this ability to to
see things and then synthesize them and
jump to conclusions about them and test
those conclusions so I think the reason
that in literature in movies the
scientist is a figure of alienation a
figure you know oh you see these biopics
about scientists and yeah he might have
been great but you know he was missing
and ship you know he was a lousy husband
he lacked you know the kind of spiritual
understanding that maybe you know his
wife had and it's always in the end they
come around but to me that's that's a
false dichotomy that we are you know to
the extent that we are aware of our
surroundings and understand them which
is what science makes it possible for us
to do we're even more alive so you
mentioned a million awesome things there
let's even just can you tell me about
the Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft and the
and the interstellar message project and
that whole just fascinating world
leading up to one of my favorite
subjects I love talking about it I'll
never get over it
yeah I'll never be able to really wrap
my head around the the reality of it the
truth of it what is it for so what's the
Voyager spacecraft
okay so voyagers 1 & 2 where our first
reconnaissance mission of what was then
considered the outer solar system and it
was a gift of gravity the idea that
swinging around these worlds gives you a
gravitational assist yes
which ultimately will send you out of
the solar system to wander the Milky Way
galaxy for one to five billion years so
Voyager gave us our
first close-up look of Jupiter Saturn
Uranus Neptune it's discovered new moons
it discovered volcanoes on Io it it its
achievements are astonishing and
remember this is technology from the
early to mid-1970s and it's still active
and it's still active we talked to
Voyager a few days ago we talked to it
in fact a year ago I think it was we
needed to slightly change the attitude
of the spacecraft and so we fired up its
thrusters for the first time since 1987
do they work instantly they it was as if
you had left your car in the garage
in 1987 yeah and you could key in the
ignition because you use keys then in
the ignition and it turned over the
first time you stepped on the gas and so
that's the genius of the engineering
yeah a Voyager and Carl was one of the
key participants in in in imagining what
its mission would be because it was a a
gift actually of the fact that every
hundred and 75 years plus or minus there
is an alignment of the worlds and so you
can't send two spacecraft to these are
the worlds and photograph them and use
your mass spectrometer and all the other
devices unvoyage ER to to really to
explore these worlds and it's the
farthest spacecraft is the farthest
human creation away from us today where
is your one where's your one these two
spacecraft not only gave us a our first
close-up look hundreds of moons and
planets these four giant these planets
but also it told us the shape of the
solar system as it moves through the
galaxy because there were two of them
going in different directions
and they finally and they arrived in a
place called the heliopause which is
where the wind from the Sun the solar
wind dies down and the interstellar
medium begins and both voyagers were the
first spacecraft that we had they could
tell us when that happened so it's a
consummate I think it's the greatest
scientific achievement of the 20th
century and engineering in some sense
engineering I mean really you know
voyagers and Voyager is doing this on
less energy than you have in your
toaster something like 11 watts so ok
but because of this gravitational assist
both voyagers were destined as I say to
they were just they were personal they
were supposed to function for a dozen
years and now it's 42 years since launch
and we're still talking to them so
that's amazing
but prior to launch almost a year hmm
eight nine months prior to launch it was
decided that since Frank Drake and Carl
Sagan and Linda sauceman Sagan had
created something called the Pioneer 10
plaque for the Pioneer spacecraft that
preceded Voyager which was kind of like
a license plate for the planet Earth you
know a man and a woman hands up you know
very very basic but very effective and
it captured the imagination of people
all over the world and so NASA
turn to Frank and to Carl and said we'd
like you to do a message for Voyager
because if it's going to be
circumnavigating the Milky Way galaxy
for one to five billion years you know
it's like 20 trips around the galaxy and
there's a very small chance that a
spacefaring civilization would be able
to flag one of them down and so on board
you see this exquisite golden disc with
scientific hieroglyphics explaining our
address and various basic scientific
concepts that we believe that would be
common to any spacefaring civilization
and then beneath this exquisite golden
disc is the Voyager record the golden
record and it contains something like
118 photographs images of life on Earth
as well as 27 pieces of music from all
around the world many people describe it
as the invention of world music world
music was not a concept that existed
before the Voyager record and we were
determined to take our music not just
from the dominant technical cultures but
from all of the rich cultural heritage
of the earth and there's a sound essay
which is kind of using using a
microphone as a camera to tell the story
of the earth beginning with its
geological sounds and moving into
biology and then into technology and
likes I think what you were getting at
is that at the end of this sound essay I
had asked Carl if it were in the making
of the record it was my honor to be the
creative director of the
project if it was possible to if I had
meditated for an hour while I was hooked
up so that you know every single signal
it was coming from my brain my body was
recorded and then converted into into
sound for the record was it possible
that these putative extraterrestrials of
the distant future of perhaps the
billion years from now would be able to
reconstitute this message and to
understand it and he just big smile and
so I did this and what were you thinking
about in the meditation like what I mean
it's such an interesting idea of
recording as you think about things what
were you thinking about so I was
blindfolded and couldn't hear anything
and I had made an a mental itinerary of
exactly where I wanted to go I was truly
humbled by the idea that these thoughts
could conceivably touch the distant
future
that's incredible so it's 1977 there are
some 60,000 nuclear weapons on the
planet the Soviet Union and the United
States are engaged in a you know to the
death competition and so I began by
trying to tell the history of the planet
in you know to my limited ability what I
understood about the story of the early
existence of the war of the planet about
the origin of life about the evolution
of life about our the history of humans
about our current at that time
predicament about the fact that one in
five of us was starving uh or unable to
get potable water
and so I sort of gave a kind of you know
it's general a picture as I possibly
could of our predicament
and I also I was Perry newly within days
of the moment when Carl and I fell in
love with each other maybe we fell in
love with each other long before because
we'd known each other for years but it
was the first time we had expressed our
feelings for each other acknowledged did
the existence of this yes because we're
both involved with other people and it
was a completely outside his morality in
mine to even broach the subject but it
was only days after that it happened and
for me it was a Eureka moment it was in
the context of finding that piece of
Chinese music that was worthy to
represent one of the oldest musical
traditions on earth when those of us who
worked on the Voyager record were
completely ignorant about Chinese music
and so that had been a constant
challenge for me talking to professor's
of Chinese music ethnomusicologist
everywhere and all through the project
desperately trying to find this one
piece found the piece lived on the Upper
West Side found the piece a professor at
Columbia University gave it to me and
he's of all the people I talked to
everyone didn't said that's hopeless you
can't do that that there can't be one
piece of Chinese music but he was
completely no problem I've got it and so
he he told me the story of the piece
which only made it an even greater
candidate for the record which and I
listened to it called Carl Sagan who was
in Tucson Arizona addressing the
American Society of newspaper editors
and and I left him a message
Hotel message center and he called me
back an hour later and heard this
beautiful voice say I came back to my
hotel room and I find this message that
any card and I asked myself why didn't
you leave me this message ten years ago
my heart was beating out of my chest I
it was for me a kind of Eureka moment
okay a scientific breakthrough yeah a
truth a great truth it suddenly been
revealed and of course I was awkward and
didn't really know what to say and so I
blurted something out like oh I've been
meaning to talk to you about that Karl
which wasn't really true I never would
have talked to him about it we had been
alone countless times we humans are so
awkward
in his beautiful moments and I just said
for keeps and he thought for a very
brief like a second and said you mean
get married and I said yeah and he said
yeah
and we put down the phone and I
literally was jumping around my
apartment like a lunatic because it was
so obvious you know it was something
like of course and then the phone rang
again and I thought damn no he's gonna
say I don't know but he was like I just
want to make sure that that really
happened and I said yeah he said we're
getting married and I said yeah we're
getting married now this was June 1st
1977 the record had not been affixed to
the spacecraft yet and there had been a
lot of controversy about what we were
doing I should say that there you know
among the hundred and eighteen pictures
was an image of a man and
frontally completely naked naked and
there was I believe a congressman on the
floor that said NASA to send smut to the
stars you know and so NASA really they
got very upset they said you can't send
a picture and we had done it so that it
was so brilliant it was like this lovely
couple completely naked and then the
next image was kind of overlay schematic
to show the fetus inside this woman that
was developing and then that went off
into you know additional imagery of
human reproduction and it really hit me
that how much we hate ourselves that we
couldn't bear to be seen as we are
so in some sense that congressman also
represents our society perhaps his
opposition should have been included as
well yes well that's was one of the most
vigorous debates during the making of
the record with a you know the five or
six people that we collaborated with was
do we show do we only put our best foot
forward or do we show Hiroshima outwits
the Congo what we have done what do you
think represents humanity if you kind of
if you think about it did our darker
moments are they essential for Humanity
all the wars we've been through all the
tortures and the suffering and the
cruelty is that essential for happiness
for beauty for creation generally he's
really not essential for a happiness or
beauty as for sure I mean it's part of
who we are if we're gonna be real about
it
which is you know I I think we tell on
ourselves even if we don't want to be
real we you know I think that if you're
a spacefaring civilization and you've
gotten it together sufficiently you can
move from world to world then I think
they probably took one look at this
derelict spacecraft and they knew that
these were people in their techno
logical adolescence yeah and they were
just setting forth and they must have
had these issues but you know because
and so really you know that's the great
thing about lying is that a lie only has
a shelf life like if you make a great
work of art that's a forgery people can
be fooled immediately but 10 or 15 years
20 years later they start to look at it
yeah you know that begin to realize of
the lens our lens of our present is
coloring everything that we see so you
know I think it didn't matter that we
didn't show our atrocities they would
fill in the blanks they would fill in
the blanks so let me sort of ask you've
mentioned how likely it is that you and
Carla did two souls like yours would
meet in this vast world
what are you views on how and why
incredibly unlikely things like these
nevertheless do happen it's purely to me
a chance it's totally random
it's adjust I mean but and the fact is
is there some people or and it's
happening every day right now some
people are the random casualties of
chance and that and I don't just mean
the people who are being you know
destroyed in childhood in more time I'm
also or people who starve to death
because of famine but also the people
who um you know who who are not living
to the fullest all of these things I
think there's a rent my parents met on
the subway in rush hour and so I'm only
here were you because of the most random
possible situation and so I've had this
a sense of this even before I knew car I
always felt this way that I only existed
because of the generosity of the rush
hour I know just all of the things all
of the skeins of causality
yeah it's interesting because you know
that our shower is the source of stress
for a lot of people but clearly in its
moments it can also be a source of
something beautiful it's right of
strangers meeting and so on so
everything everything is has the
possibility of doing some fancy right so
let me ask sort of a quick tangent on
the Voyager so that this this beautiful
romantic notion that Voyager 1 is sort
of our farthest human reach into space
if you think of what I don't know if
you've seen but what Elon Musk did with
the putting the roadster letting it fly
out into space there's a sort of humor
to it I think that's also kind of
interesting but maybe you can comment on
that but in general if now that we are
developing what we were venturing out
into space again in a more serious way
what kind of stuff that represent since
Voyager was launched should we send out
as a follow-up is there things that you
think that's developed the next in in
the 40 years after that we should update
the the spacefaring aliens of course now
we could send the worldwide we could
send everything that's on the world wide
web we could send I mean you know that
was a time when we're talking about
phonograph records and transistor radios
and you know so we tried to be to take
advantage of the existing technology to
the fullest extent you know the computer
that was hooked up to me from my brain
waves in my heart sounds while I was
meditating was the size of a gigantic
room and I'm sure it's not that didn't
have the power of a phone as that phone
has now so you know we could just I
think we could let it all hang out you
just stood send you know ever we I mean
that's the wonder like I would send you
know Wikipedia or something and not
being a gatekeeper but
this thing because we are you were also
it's interesting because it one of the
problems of the Internet of having so
much information is it's actually the
curation the human curation is still the
powerful beautiful thing yeah so what
you did with the record is actually is
exactly the right process is kind of
boiling down a massive amount of
possibilities of what you could send
into something that represents you know
the better angels of our nature or
represents our humanity so if you think
about you know what would you send from
the Internet as opposed to sending all
of Wikipedia for example all human
knowledge is there something just new
that we've developed you think or
fundamentally we're still the same kind
of human species I think fundamentally
were the same but we have a kind of way
we are we have advanced a to an
astonishing degree in our capacity for
data retrieval and for transmission and
so you know I would send YouTube I would
send no it really like think of all that
you know I I still feel so lucky that
there's any great musical artists of the
last hundred years who I revere I can
just find them and watch them and listen
to them and you know that's fantastic I
also love how democratic it is that we
each become curators that we each decide
those things now I may not agree with
you know those the choices that everyone
makes but of course not because that's
not the point the point is is that we
are you know we've discovered largely
through the internet that we are an
intercommunicating organism and that can
only be good so you could also send now
cosmos yes I love it
I will be proud I mean you're spoken
about a very specific voice that cosmos
I had in that it reveals the magical
science I think you said shamanic
journey of it and not the details of the
latest breakthrough so on
he's just revealing the magic can you
try to describe what this voice of
cosmos is with the with the follow-up
and the new cosmos that you're working
on now yes well a dream of cosmos is
really like Einsteins quote you know
it's the idea of the awesome power of
science to be in absolutely everyone's
hands you know it belongs to all of us
it's not the preserve of a priesthood
it's just just the community of science
is becoming more diverse and being less
exclusive than it was guilty of in the
not so recent past the discoveries of
science our understanding of the cosmos
that we live in has really grown by
leaps and bounds and probably we've
learned more in the last hundred years
about it you know the the tempo of
discovery has picked up so rapidly and
so the idea of cosmos from the 1970s
when Carl and I and Steven Soter another
astronomer first imagined it was that
interweaving not only of these
scientific concepts and revelations and
using you know cinematic VFX to take the
viewer on this transporting uplifting
journey but also the stories of the
searchers because the more I have
learned about you know the process of
science through my life with Carl and
since the more I am really persuaded
that it's that adherence to the facts
and to that adherence to that little
proximation that little bit of reality
that we've been able to get our hands
around is something that we desperately
need and it doesn't matter if you are a
scientist in fact the people it matters
even more if you're not and since you
know the level of science teaching has
been fairly or unfairly maligned and the
idea that once there was such a thing as
a television network which of course has
now evolved into many other things the
idea that you could in the most
democratic way make accessible to
absolutely everyone and most especially
people who don't even realize that they
have an interest in a subject or who
feel so intimidated by the jargon of
science and it's kind of exclusive
history the idea that we could do this
and you know in season 2 of cosmos
spacetime Odyssey we were in a hundred
and eighty-one countries in the space of
two weeks it was the largest rollout in
television history which is really
amazing for it
there is no science-based program by the
way just to clarify this series was
rolled out so it was shown in in that
many countries you said we were in well
our show the show the show which is
incredible I mean the the the hundreds
of million whatever that number is that
people that watched it it's just it's
crazy it's so crazy Pat for instance uh
my son had a cerebral hemorrhage here
ago and the doctor who saved his life in
a very dangerous situation when he
realized that you know that Sam and I
were who we were
he said that's why I'm here you know he
said if you come of age in a poor
country like Colombia and Carl Sagan
calls you to science when you're a child
then then you know you go to medicine
because
the only Avenue open to you but that's
why I'm here
and I have heard that story and I hear
that story I think every week how does
that make you feel I mean I the the
number of scientists I mean a lot of it
is quiet right but the number of
scientists cosmos has created is just
countless I mean it probably touched a
lives I don't know probably it could be
a crazy number of the 90% of scientists
or something I'd have been I was going
to do that census because I because
that's the month the greatest
gratification because that's the dream
of science and that's the whole idea is
that if it belongs to all of us and not
just a tiny few then we have some chance
of determining how it's used and if it's
only in the hands of people whose only
whose only interests are the balance
sheet or hegemony over other nations or
things like that then it'll probably end
up being a gun aimed in our heads but if
it's distributed in the widest possible
way a capability that we now have
because of our technology then this
chance is that that it'll be used with
wisdom that's that's the dream of it so
that's that's why we did the first
cosmos we wanted to take not just as I
say the scientific information but also
tell the stories of these searchers
because for us and for me it carrying on
this a series in the second and third
seasons the the primary interest was
that we wouldn't tell a story unless it
was a kind of a three-fer you know it
was not just a way to understand a new
sign a scientific idea but it was also a
way to understand what if it matters
what's true wow the world can change for
us and how we can be protected
and if it doesn't matter what's true
then we're in grave danger because we
have the capability to not only destroy
ourselves and our civilization but to
take so many species with us and I'd
like to talk to you about that
particular the sort of the dangers of
ourselves in a little bit but sort of to
linger on cosmos maybe for the first the
1980 in the 2014 follow-up what a what's
a or one of the or several memorable
moments from the creation of either of
those seasons well you know the critical
thing really was the fact that Seth
MacFarlane became our champion because I
had been with three colleagues I had
been slapping around from network to
network with a treatment for cosmos and
every network said they wanted to do it
but they wouldn't give me creative
control and they wouldn't give me enough
money to make it cinematic and to make
it feel like you're really going on an
adventure
and so I think both of those things
sorry in turn draw both these things are
given what cosmos represents the the
legacy of it and the legacy of Carl
Sagan is essential control especially in
the modern world I it's it's was
wonderful the Assad control he did not
really push it no I'm sure I know they
would look at me like I was nuts you
know and they probably must have
entertained the idea that maybe I didn't
really want to do it you know because
that was afraid or something but I kept
saying no and it wasn't until I met Seth
MacFarlane and he took me to Fox and you
Peter rice and said you know I'll pay
for half the pilot if I have to you know
and Peter rice was like put your money
away and Seth said that yeah and and and
and in every time since in the in the
10-year sense at every turn when we
needed Seth to intervene on our behalf
he stood up and he did it and so that
was like in a way that is the you know
the watershed for me of the everything
that followed since and then I was so
lucky because I know Steve and I Steve
Souter and I written the original cosmos
with Carl and were co-opted and
collaborated on the treatment for a
season 2 and then Brannon Braga came
into our project at the perfect moment
and has proven to be like just the
really I have been so lucky my whole
life I've collaborated I've been lucky
with the people my collaborators have
been extraordinary and so that was a
critical thing but also to have you know
for instance astonishing VFX supervisor
who comes from the movies who heads the
global Association of VFX people Jeff
oaken and and then and you know I can
rattle off ten more names I'd be happy
to do that and it was that collaboration
so the people were essential to the
creation of absolutely I mean when it
came down I have to say that when it
came down to the vision of what the
series would be that with me sitting in
my home looking out the window and I'm
you know really imagining like what I
wanted to do can you pause on that for a
second like what's that process because
it you know cosmos is also it's grounded
in science of course but it's also
incredibly imaginative and the words
used are carefully crafted thank you so
what if you couldn't talk about the
process of that the big picture
imaginative thinking and so the rigorous
crafting of words that like basically
turns into something like poetry thank
you so much for me these are rare
occasions for human self-esteem the
scientists that we bring to life in
cosmos are people in my view
who have everything we need to see us
through this current crisis it's there
very often they come they're poor
they're a female they're outsiders who
are not expected to have gifts that are
so pretentious but they persevere and so
you have someone like Michael Faraday
who is comes from a family dysfunctional
family of like 14 people and you know if
never goes to university never learns
the math but you know is the you know
there's Einstein years later looking up
at that picture of Faraday to inspire
him there so it's you know if we had
people we've had kind of humility and
unselfishness who didn't want to patent
everything me as you know Michael
Faraday created the wealth of the 20th
century with his various inventions and
yet he never took out a single patent at
a time when people were patenting
everything because that was not what he
was about and to me that's a kind of
almost a saintliness vet says that you
know that here's a man who finds in his
life this tremendous gratification from
searching and it's just so impressive to
me and there are so many other people in
cosmos especially the new season of
cosmos which is called possible worlds
possible beautiful title with possible
worlds well I stole it from an author
and a scientist with the 1940s but it it
for me encapsulate not just you know the
exoplanets that we'd begun to discover
not just you know the the worlds that we
might visit but also the world that this
could be a hopeful vision of the future
you asked me what is common to all three
seasons of
what is that voice it's the voice of
hope it's a voice that says there is the
future which we bring to life and I
think fairly dazzling fashion that we
can still have you know and in sitting
down to imagine what this season would
be the new season I'd be sitting where I
live in Ithaca beautiful trees
everywhere waterfalls yeah you're
sitting there thinking well you can't
how do you how do you awaken people I
mean you can't yell at them and say
we're all gonna die no it's not it
doesn't help it doesn't help but I think
if you give them a vision of the future
that's not pie in the sky but something
the ways in which science can be
redemptive can actually remediate our
future we have those capabilities right
now as well as the capabilities to do
things in the cosmos that we could be
doing right now but we're not doing them
not because we don't know how to how you
know with the engineering or the
material sciences or the physics we know
all we need to know but we're a little
bit paralyzed in some sense and you know
we're like I always think we're like the
toddler you know like we we left our
mothers legs you know and scurried out
to the moon yeah and we had a moment of
wow we can do this and then we realized
and somehow we had a failure of nerve
and we went scurrying back to our mother
and you know did things that really
weren't gonna get us out there like a
Space Shuttle things like that because
it was a kind of failure of nerve so
cosmos is about overcoming those fears
we're now as a civilization ready to be
a teenager venturing out into college
we're returning back exactly you're
exactly and that and that's one of my
theories about our current
situation is that this is our
adolescence and I was a total mess I
wasn't I was reckless irresponsible
totally I didn't I was inconsiderate
yeah I the reality of other people's
feelings and the future didn't exist for
me so why should a technologically
adolescent civilization be any different
but you know the vast majority of people
I know made it through that period and
went on to be more wise and that's what
my hope is for our civilization on a
sort of darker and more difficult
subject in terms of so you talked about
the cosmos being an inspiration for
science and for us growing out of our
messy adolescence but nevertheless there
is threats in this world so do you worry
about existential threats like emission
nuclear weapons you worry about nuclear
war yes and if you could also maybe
comment I don't know how much you've
thought about it but I was there's folks
like Elon Musk or worried about the
existential threats of artificial
intelligence sort of our robotic
computer creations sort of yeah
resulting in us humans losing control so
can you speak to the things that were
you in terms of existential concern you
know like not to think and not to look
at for instance are rapidly burgeoning
capability in artificial intelligence
not and to see how sick so much of the
planet is not to be concerned and sick
isn't evil potentially well hum-hum is
cruelty and brutality is happening at
this very moment and I would put climate
change higher up on that list because I
believe that there are on
Sene discoveries that we are making
right now for instance all that methane
that's coming out of the ocean floor
that was sequestered because of the
permafrost which is now melting you know
I think there are other effects besides
our greed and short-term thinking you
know that we are triggering now with all
the greenhouse gases were putting into
the atmosphere and that worries me day
at night I think about it every single
every moment really because I really
think that's how we have to be we have
to begin to really focus on how grave
the challenges to our civilization and
to the other species that are it's the
mass it this is a mass extinction event
that we're living through and we're
seeing it we're seeing news of it every
day so what do you think about another
touchy subject but what do you think
about the politicization of science on
topics like global warming embryonic
stem cell research and other topics like
it what's your sense why what do you
mean by the politicization of meaning
that if you say I think what you just
said which is global warming as a
serious concerns human caused arrange
some detrimental effects currently
there's a large percent of the
population of the United States that
would as opposed to listening to that
statement would immediately think oh
that's just a liberal talking point
that's not I mean it's not so true
anymore
I don't think our problem is a
population events skeptical about
climate change because I think that the
extreme weather fire events that we are
experiencing with such frequency it's
really gotten to people I think there I
think that there are people in
leadership position
who choose to ignore it and to pretend
it's not there but ultimately I think
they will be rejected the question is
will it be fast enough but you know this
I don't I think actually that most
people have really finally taken the
reality of global climate change to
heart and they look at their children
and grandchildren
and they don't feel good because they
come from a world which was in many ways
in terms of climate fairly familiar and
benign and they know that we're headed
in another direction and it's not just
that it's what we do to the oceans the
rivers the air you know I mean you asked
me like what is what is the message of
cosmos is it's that is that we have to
think in longer terms you know I think
of the Soviet Union United States in the
Cold War and they're ready to kill each
other over these two different views of
the distribution of resources but
neither of them has a form of human
social organization that thinks in terms
of a hundred years let alone a thousand
years which are the timescales that
science speaks in and that's part of the
problem is that we have to get a grip on
reality and where we're headed and it's
I I'm not fatalistic at all but I do
feel like it you and in setting out to
to do this series each season we were
talking about climate change in the
original cosmos in Episode four and
warning about inadvertent climate
modification in 1980
you know and of course Carl did his PhD
thesis on the greenhouse effect on Venus
and he was painfully cognizant of it
when a runaway greenhouse effect would
do to our planet and not only that but
the climb
history of the planet which we go into
in great detail in the series so yeah I
mean how are we gonna get a grip on this
if not through some kind of
understanding of science can I just say
one more thing about science is that its
powers of prophecy are astonishing you
launch a spacecraft in 1977 and you know
where each and every planet in the solar
system is going to be in every moon and
you rendezvous with that flawlessly and
you exceed the design specifications of
the greatest dreams that the engineers
and then you go on to explore the Milky
Way galaxy and you do it I mean you know
the climate scientists some of the
people that we use stories we tell in
cosmos they their predictions were and
they were working with very early
computer modeling capabilities they have
proven to be so robust nuclear winter
all of these things this is a prophetic
power and yet how crazy that you know
it's like it's like the Romans with
their lead cooking pots and their lead
pipes or the Aztecs ripping out their
own people's hearts this is us we know
better and yet we are acting as if it's
business as usual yeah the beautiful
complexity of human nature there's a
speaking of which let me ask a tough
question I guess because there's so many
possible answers but what aspect of life
here on earth do you find most
fascinating from the origin of life the
evolutionary process itself the origin
of the human mind so intelligence the
some of the technological developments
going on now or us venturing out into
space or space exploration what just
inspires you inspire me but I just say
that to me
at the archana as I've gotten older to
me the origin of life has become less
interesting interesting well because I
feel well not because it's more I think
I understand I have a better grasp of
how it might have happened do you think
it was a huge leap so I may think it was
that we are a byproduct of geophysics
and I think it's not I my suspicion of
course which is taking it with a grain
of salt but my suspicion is that it
happens more often and more places than
we like to think because you know after
all the history of our thinking about
ourselves there's been a constant series
of demotions in which we've had you
realize no no so to me that's not at the
center of the origin of consciousness is
to me also not so amazing if you think
of it as you know going back to these
one celled organisms of a billion years
ago who had had to know well if I go
higher up
I'll get too much Sun and if I go lower
down not I'll be protected from you know
UV rays things like that they have to
know that or you I eat me I don't I mean
even that I can see if you know that
then knowing what we know now it's just
it's not so hard to fathom it seems like
you know there's I never believed there
was a duality between our minds and our
bodies and I think that even
consciousness all those seem to me
except my Oh physics chemistry yes
geochemistry geophysics absolutely of
you know it makes perfect sense to me
and it doesn't make it any less wondrous
it it doesn't wrap it at all of the
wonder of it and so yeah I think that's
amazing I think you know we tell the
story of someone you have never heard of
I guarantee and I think you're very
knowledgeable of a subject who was more
responsible for our ability to venture
out to other worlds when anyone else and
who was completely forgotten and so
those are the kinds of stories I like
best for cosmos you tell me who buy my
book you know but I'm just saying like
this person would be forgotten but you
know I you just the way that we do
cosmos is that like I ask a question to
myself we really want to get to the
bottom to the answer and keep going
deeper deeper until we find what the
story is a story that I know because I'm
not a scientist if it moves me if it if
it moves me then I want to tell it and
other people be moved
do you ponder mortality yes human
mortality and maybe even your own
mortality oh all the time
I just turned 70 so yeah I think about
it a lot I mean it's you know how could
you not think about it but uh what do
you make of this short life of ours a I
mean let me ask uh sort of another way
you've lost Carl and speaking of
mortality if you could be if you could
choose immortality you know it's
possible that science allows us to live
much much longer is that something you
would choose for yourself for Carl Carl
definitely I would you know in a
nanosecond I would take that deal but
not for me I mean if car were alive yes
I would want to live forever but no
would it be fun forever that's I don't
know it's just that the universe is so
full of so many wonderful things just
discover that it feels like it wouldn't
be fine but no I don't want to live
forever I I have had a magical life I
just might you know Mike
craziest dreams have come true and I
feel you know I forgive me but this
crazy quirk of fate
it put my most joyful deepest feelings
feelings that decades later of 42 years
later I know how real how true those
feelings were everything that happened
after that was an affirmation of how
true those feelings were and so I don't
feel that way I feel like I have gotten
so much more than my share um not just
my extraordinary life with Carl my
family my parents my children my friends
the places that I've been able to
explore the but the books I've read the
music ever heard so I feel like you know
if it'd be much better if instead of
working on the immortality of the lucky
few of the most privileged people in the
society I would really like to see a
concerted effort for us to get us our
act together you know that to me is
topic a more pressing
you know this possible world is the
challenge and we're at a kind of moment
where if we can we can make that choice
so immortality doesn't really interest
me I I really I love nature and I have
to say that I I because I'm a product of
nature I recognize that it's it's great
gifts and it's great cruelty well I
don't think there's a better way to end
it anything thank you so much for
talking to us at all it's wonderful
really appreciate it I really enjoyed it
I thought your questions but great thank
you
thanks for listening to this
conversation with Andrew Ian and thank
you to our presenting sponsor cash app
downloaded use code let's podcast you
get ten dollars and ten dollars we'll go
to first
an organization that inspires and
educates young minds to become science
and technology innovators of tomorrow if
you enjoy this podcast subscribe on
YouTube give it five stars in a podcast
supported on patreon or simply connect
with me on Twitter Alex Friedman and now
let me leave you some words of wisdom
from Carl Sagan what an astonishing
thing a book is it's a flat object made
from a tree with flexible parts on which
are imprinted lots of funny dark
squiggles but one glance at it and
you're inside the mind of another person
maybe somebody dead for thousands of
years across the millennia and authors
speaking clearly and silently inside
your head directly to you writing is
perhaps the greatest of human inventions
binding together people who never knew
each other citizens of distant epochs
books break the shackles of time a book
is proof that humans are capable of
working magic thank you for listening
and hope to see you next time
you