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Language: en
I'm trying to say that whatever
consciousness is it's not a computation
yes it's not a physical process which
can be described by computation but it
nevertheless could be so one of the
interesting models that you've proposed
as the orchestrated objective reduction
yeah that's going from there you say so
I say I have no idea so I wrote this
book through my scientific career I
thought you know when I'm retired I have
enough time to write a sort of popular
ish book which I will explain my ideas
and puzzles but I like beautiful things
about physics and mathematics and this
puzzle about computability in
consciousness and so on and in the
process of writing this book well I
thought I'd do it when I retired I
didn't actually I would didn't wait that
long because there was a radio
discussion between edward fredkin and
marvin minsky
and they were talking about what
computers could do and they were
answering and entering a big room it
imagined entering this big room with the
other end of the room two computers were
talking to each other and as you walk up
to the computers they will have
communicated to each other more ideas
concepts things than the entire human
race had ever commute that yes so I
thought well know where you're coming
from but I just don't believe you
there's something missing that's it's
not that so I thought well I should
write my book and so I did it was a
roughly the same time Stephen Hawking
this writing his brief history of time
and Hades at some point the book you're
talking was the emperor's new mind
that's right and both are and incredible
books the brief history of time an
emperor's new mind yes I think white
interesting because he got he told me
he'd got some Carl Sagan I think to rise
her forward good gosh what am I gonna do
I'm not gonna get anywhere unless I get
somebody so I know Martin gardener so
we do it so he did and it is a very nice
forward so that's that's an incredible
book and some of the same people you
mentioned Ed Franken which I guess of
expert systems Fame and Minsky of course
people know in the eye world but they
represent the artificial intelligence
that do hope and dream that a eyes
intelligences am I thinking well you
know I see where they're coming from and
from exercise rectus oh yeah you're
right
but that's not my perspective so I
thought I had to say it and as I was
writing my book you see I thought well I
don't really know anything about
neurophysiology what am i doing writing
this book so I certainly reading up
about neurophysiology and I'm rate had
nothing I'm trying to find out how it is
that nerve signals could possibly
preserve quantum coherence and all I
read is that the second electrical
signals which go along the nerves create
some effects through the brain there's
no chance you can isolate it so this is
hopeless
so I come to the end of the book and I'm
more or less give up and just think of
something which I didn't believe in this
maybe this is the way around it but no
and then you say I thought well maybe
this book will at least stimulate young
people to do science or something and I
got all these letters from old
people instead he's the only people who
could had time to read my book so I mean
except for Stuart Hameroff except for
Stuart Hameroff you don't have a rough
road to me and he said I think you're
missing something you don't know about
microtubules do you didn't put it quite
like that but that was more or less it
and he said this is what you really need
to consider so I thought oh my god yes
that's a much more promising structure
so I mean fundamentally you were
searching for the source of a non
computable source of consciousness
within the human brain yeah in the
biology and so what are mark if I may
ask what are microtubules well you see I
I was ignorant in what address I never
came across them and in in the books I
looked at perhaps I only read rather
superficially which is true but I didn't
know about microtubules
Stuart I think one of the things here
was impressed him about
when you see pictures of mitosis that's
a cell dividing and you see all the
chromosomes and the chromosomes get
their gate or gate line and then they
get pulled apart and so that as the cell
divides the half the chromosomes go
you know how their web is divided into
the two paths and they go two different
ways and what is it that's pulling them
apart well those are these little things
called microtubules and so he starts to
get interested in them and he formed the
view well he was his day job or night
job of where every call it is to put
people to sleep except he doesn't like
calling to sleep because it's different
general anesthetics in a reversible way
so you want to make sure that they don't
experience the pain that would otherwise
be something that they feel and
consciousness is turned off for a while
and then can be turned back on again so
it's crucial that you can turn it off
and turn it on and what do you do when
you're doing that what do general
anesthetic gases do and see he formed
the view that it's the microtubules that
they affect and the details of why he
formed that view is not what the girl
isn't clear to me but there but there's
an interesting story he keeps talking
about but I've found this very exciting
because I thought these structures these
little tubes which inhabit pretty well
ourselves it's not just neurons
apart from red blood cell red blood
cells they inhabit pretty well all the
other cells in the body but they're not
all the same kind you'll get different
kinds of microtubules and the ones that
excited me the most and this is may
still not be totally clear but they're
ones that excited me most were the ones
that the only ones that I knew but at
the time because they were there very
very symmetrical structures and I had
reason to believe that these very
symmetrical structures would be much
better at preserving a quantum state
quantum coherence preserving the thing
without you just need to because to
preserve certain degrees of freedom
without them leaking into
the environment once they leak into the
environment your loss so you ought to
preserve these quantum states at a level
which the state reduction process comes
in and that's where I think the NAM
computability comes in and it's the
measurement process in quantum mechanics
what's going on so something about the
measurement process what's going on
something about the structure or the
microtubules yeah your intuition says
maybe there's something here maybe this
kind of structure allows for the the
mystery the there was a better chance
yes it just struck me that partly it was
the symmetry because there is a feature
of symmetry you can produce perfect
preserve quantum coherence much better
with symmetrical structures they said
there is a good reason for that and that
impressed me a lot I didn't know the
difference between the a lattice and B
lattice at that time which could be
important now that could in medicine
this year which isn't talked about much
but that's some in some sense details
we're good to take a step back just to
say these people are not familiar so
this this this was called the
orchestrated objective reduction idea or
orko R which is a biological philosophy
of mind the postulates that
consciousness originates at the quantum
level inside neuron so that has to do
with your search for where where is it
coming from so that's counter to the
notion that consciousness might arise
from the computation performed by the
synapses yes the key point he sometimes
people say it's because it's quantum
mechanical it's not just that see it's
it more outrageous than that you see
this is one reason I think we're so far
off from it because we don't even know
the physics right you see it's not just
quantum mechanics people say oh we know
quantum systems and biological
structures know we'll use starting to
see that some basic biological systems
does depend on quantum I mean look you
the first place all of chemistry is
quantum mechanics people got used to
that so they don't count that
so I said let's not come on Hank
chemistry we sort of got the hang of
that I think but you have quantum
effects which are not just chemical in
photosynthesis and this is one of the
striking things in the last several
years that photosynthesis seems to be a
basically quantum process which is not
simply create chemical it's using
quantum mechanics in a very basic way so
you can start saying oh well with
photosynthesis is based on quantum
mechanics why not behave you have
neurons and things like that
maybe there's something which is a bit
like photosynthesis in that respect but
what I'm saying is even more outrageous
than that because those things are
talking about conventional quantum
mechanics now my argument says that
conventional quantum mechanics if you're
just following the Schrodinger equation
that's still computable so you've got to
go beyond that so you've got to go to
where quantum mechanics goes wrong in a
certain sense you have to be a little
bit careful about that because the way
people do quantum mechanics is a sort of
mixture of two different processes one
of them is the Schrodinger equation
which is a an equation my Schrodinger
wrote down and it tells you how the
system the state of a system evolves it
evolves according to this equation
completely deterministic but it involves
into ridiculous situations and this was
much frightening it was very much
pointing out with his cat
he said you follow my equation that's
Schrodinger's equation and you could say
that you have two cat a cat was just
dead and alive at the same time that
would be the evolution of the
Schrodinger equation would lead to a
state which is the cat being dead and
alive at the same time and he's more or
less saying this is an absurdity people
nod I say oh well Schrodinger said you
couldn't have a cat with deadly it's not
that you see he was saying this is an
absurdity there's something missing
that the reduction of the state or the
collapse of the wavefunction or whatever
it is it's something which is has to be
understood it's not following the
Schrodinger equation it's not the way we
conventionally do quantum mechanics
there's something more than that and
it's easy to quote Authority here
because Einstein at least three of the
greatest physicists of 20th century who
were very fundamental in developing
quantum mechanics Einstein one of them
Schrodinger another Dirac another you
have to look carefully it directs
writing because he didn't tend to say
this out loud too much because he was
very cautious about what he said you
find the right place and you cease he
says quantum mechanics is a provisional
theory we need something which explains
the collapse of a wavefunction we need
to go beyond the theory we have now I
happen to be one of the kinds of people
there are many there is a whole group of
people they're all considered to be a
bit you know bit Mavericks who believe
that quantum mechanics needs to be
modified there's a small minority of
those people which were really a
minority who think that the way in which
it's modified has to be with gravity and
there is an even smaller minority of
those people who think it's a particular
way that I think it is you see so so
those are the quantum gravity folks for
what's well you see quantum gravity is
already not this because when you say
quantum gravity what you really mean is
quantum mechanics applied to a
gravitational theory so you say let's
take this wonderful formalism of quantum
mechanics and make gravity fit into it
so that is what quantum gravity is meant
to be now I'm saying you got to be more
even-handed that gravity affects the
structure of quantum mechanics too it's
not just you quantize gravity you've got
to gravity as quantum mechanics and it's
it's a two-way thing but then when you
even get started so that you're saying
and we have to figure out totally new
ideas entirely no yes it's you're stuck
we don't have a theory that's the
trouble so this is a big problem if you
say okay well what so they're I don't
know
so we're maybe in the very early days
sort of it is in the very early days and
they but just making this point yes well
you see Stuart Hameroff tends to be open
road says there's got to be a reduction
of the state and so so let's use it
the trouble is Penrose doesn't say that
Penrose says well I think that no no we
have no experiments as yet which shows
that yes there are experiments which are
being thought through and which I'm
hoping will be performed there is an
experiment which is being developed by
Jeremy Stowe who is a I've known for a
long time who shares his time between
Leiden in the Netherlands and Santa
Barbara in the US and he's been working
on an experiment which could perhaps
demonstrate that quantum mechanics as we
now understand it if you don't bring in
the gravitational effects it has to be
modified and and then there's also
experiments that are underway that kind
of look at the microtubule side of
things to see if there's in the biology
you could see something like that could
you briefly mention it because that's a
really sort of one of the only
experimental attempts in the very early
days of even yeah about I think there's
there's a very serious area here which
is what Stuart Hameroff is doing and I
think it's very important one of the few
places that you can really get a bit of
a handle on what consciousness is is
what turns it off and when you're
thinking about general anesthetics it's
very specific these things turn
consciousness off what the hell do they
do well Stuart and a number of people
who work with him and others happen to
believe that the general anesthetics
directly affect microtubules and there
is some evidence for this I don't know
how strong it is and how watertight the
cases but I think there is some evidence
pointing in that kind of direction it's
not just an ordinary chemical process
there's something quite different about
it
and one of the main candidates is that
the anesthetic gases do affect directly
microtubules and how strong that
evidence is I wouldn't be in a position
to say but I think there is fairly
impressive evidence and the point is the
experiments are being undertaken with
yes I mean that is experimental it's a
very clear direction where you can think
of experiments which could indicate
whether or not it's really microtubules
which the anaesthetic gas is directly
affect that's really exciting one of the
sad things is as far as I'm from my
outside perspective it's not many people
are working on this
so there's a very Michael Stewart even
it feels like there's very few people
are carrying the flag forward on this I
think it's it's not many in the sense
it's a minority but it's not zero
anymore you see when I originally was
serious you know we were just just us
and a few few of our friends they
weren't many people think so but it's
grown into into it one of the main
viewpoints yeah there might be about
four or five or six different views that
which people hold and it's one of them
so it's considered as one of the
possible lines of thinking yes you
describe physics theories as falling
into one of three categories the superb
the useful or the tentative I like those
words it's a beautiful categorization do
you think we'll ever have a superb
theory of intelligence and of
consciousness we might we're a long way
from it I don't think we're even whether
in the tentative scale I mean it's uh
you don't think we've even entered the
realm of tentative probably no I think
yeah that's raised you know what do you
see the circle is so controversial we
don't have a clear view which which is
accepted by majority I mean you say yeah
people most views are computational in
one form or another
they think it's some but it's not very
clear because even the the IIT people
who think
think of them as computational but I've
heard them saying they know
consciousness is supposed to be not
computation I said well if it's not
coming in what the hell is it what's
good what's going on but physical
processes are going on which are that
what does it mean for something to be
computational then so is um well there
has to be a process which is it's very
curious the way the history has
developed in quantum mechanics because
very early on people thought there was
something new with consciousness but it
was almost the other way around you see
you have to say the Schrodinger
equations says all these different
alternatives happen all at once and then
when is it that only one of them happens
where one of the views which was quite
commonly held by a few distinguished
quantum physicists this when a conscious
being looks at the system what becomes
aware of it and at that point it becomes
one of the other that's a row where
consciousness is somehow actively
reducing the state my view is almost the
exact opposite of that it's the state
reduces itself in some way which some
non computational way which we don't
understand we don't have a proper theory
of and that is a building block of what
consciousness is so consciousness it's
the other way around it depends on that
choice which nature makes all the time
when the state becomes one of the other
rather than the superposition of one and
the other and when that happens there is
what we're saying now an element of
proto consciousness takes place proto
consciousness is roughly speaking the
building block out of which actual
consciousness is constructed so you have
these proto conscious elements which are
when the state decides to won't do one
thing or the other and that's the thing
which when organized together that's the
oh our part in orko our but the ork part
that's the the Oh our part at least once
can see where when driving it as a
theory because it's the quantum choice
of going this way or that way but the
ork part which is the orchestration of
this is much more mystery
Arius and how does the brain somehow
orchestrate all these individual our
processes into a genuine genuine genuine
conscious experience and and it might be
something that's beautifully simple but
we're completely in the dark about yeah
I think at the moment it's that's the
thing you know we happily put the word
or walk down there to say orchestrated
that's even more unclear what that
really means just like the word material
orchestrated yeah
it's who knows yes and we've been
dancing a little bit between the word
intelligence or understanding in
consciousness do you kind of see those
as sitting in the same space of mystery
as yes you see I tend to say you have
understanding and intelligence and
awareness and somehow understanding is
in the middle of it you see it's I like
to say could you say of an entity that
is actually intelligent if it doesn't
have the quality of understanding maybe
I'm using terms I don't even know how to
define but who cares really there's
somewhat poetic so as I somehow
understand them yes
things that they're not mathematical in
nature yes you see as a mathematician I
don't know how to define any of them but
at least I can point to the connections
so the idea is intelligence is something
which I believe needs understanding
otherwise you wouldn't say for any
intelligence an understanding needs
awareness otherwise you wouldn't really
say it's understanding you say of an
entity they understand something and
it's unless it's really aware of it then
our normal usage so there's a three sort
of awareness understanding and
intelligence and I just tend to
concentrate on understanding because
that's where I can say something okay
that's the kernel theorem things like
that but they what does it mean to be
perceived the color blue or something
yes that's much more difficult
question I mean this is the same if I
see a color blue and you see it if
you're something with this this
condition wants to call them or were you
assign sound - yeah yeah that's right
you get colors and sounds mixed up and
and that sort of thing I mean an
interesting subject term here
but from the physics perspective from
the fundamentals perspective we don't I
think we're way off pretty much
understanding what's going on there
you