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Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Steven Pressfield author of several
powerful nonfiction and historical
fiction books including the war of art a
book that had a big impact on my life
and the life of millions of people whose
passion is to create an art science
business sport and everywhere else I
highly recommend it and others of his
books on this topic including turning
pro do the work nobody wants to read
your shit and the Warrior Ethos also his
books gets a fire about the Spartans and
the Battle of Thermopylae the Lionsgate
tides of war and others are some of the
best historical fiction novels ever
written some of you know I don't shy
away from taking on a big difficult
challenge one of the hardest for me for
millions of others is the discipline of
staring and an empty page every day
pushing on to think deeply to create
despite the millions of excuses that
fill the head in his work steven has
articulated this struggle better than
anyone I've ever read quick summary of
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here's my conversation with Steven
Pressfield
modern society many ways dreams of
creating universal peace and yet war has
molded civilization as we know it
throughout his history so let's start at
the high philosophically ville if you
could imagine a world without war
how would that world be different
perhaps put another way well purpose has
war served why do we fight
I think we're basically the same
creatures internally that we were in the
cave right in tribal society back for
however many you know hundreds of
thousands millions of years which means
that we're in our the dynamic in our
mind is that kind of an us-versus-them
dynamic where our tribe is the people
and everybody else are whatever you know
and I don't see that I don't think
that's changed one iota over the over
the centuries it's just a question of
how how one might sublimate that that
urge to compete you're a martial artist
you know that you know a great part of
your day I'm sure is dedicated to
reaching that place of you know of total
commitments and in the face of
competition in the face of adversity at
cetera et cetera which is I think
natural and great for the human race on
an individual basis so the the hope that
I have if there is any hope personally I
don't think the human race is gonna be
around very long but would be in in
sports or in other kind of sublimated
activities where people can act out
their need for conquest or aggression or
so forth but at the same time relate to
their opponents as human beings that
when the game is over
you know you embrace your competitors
stuff like that so you think war was
inevitable it's a it's a part of human
nature as opposed to a force a creative
force in society that
serve the benefit well I'm sure it has
benefited you know spreading cultures
and mixing cultures and stuff like that
but I think the the urge to conquest if
you think about Alexander the Great or
Julius Caesar Napoleon or anybody like
that or any even individual or if we
even think about one of the plants that
we're looking at right outside I mean if
you let a particular plant have its way
it would take over reading on the whole
hillside and certainly in the days of
Alexander the Great let's say there were
who knows over looking over the face of
the earth hundreds of little kingdoms
China Japan
you know Asia Europe wherever and every
prince that grew up dreamt of conquering
his neighbor and conquering a neighbor
after that that seems to be a universal
human imperative at least in the male of
the species so where is this the
realization of that imperative I think
so so you've written about Spartans in
the Battle of Thermopylae about
Alexander the Great about the six-day
war in 67 in Israel against Egypt Jordan
Syria what war not just out of those but
in general do you think has been most
transformative for the world well he's a
great questions Lex ah easy ones right I
mean I wish I knew more about the
Mongols because I certainly from what
I've what little I know I think that was
a very their conquests was a very
transformative bringing cultures you
know you know horrible bloody way
together but gosh what's then the most
transformative maybe the Roman conquest
you know establishing the Roman Empire
and bringing that culture maybe
Alexander the Great's Wars that you know
United East and West at least for a
minute it's a building of empire do you
have a sense
so there's Wars I mean the six-day war
is not about building empires
it's about deep how deeply held
religious cultural conflict and holding
the line holding the border and then
there is conquests like the Mongols that
what is it some large percentage of the
population is a descendant of Genghis
Khan believed right so that has
transformative effects in that in World
War two I mean personally and my family
and so on the transformative effects let
me ask you this Lex why are you what are
you trying to get at with these
questions what is this kind of the theme
that you're you're aiming here well I
talked to Eric Weiss that and he said
everything is great about war except the
killing and there's a romantic notion of
war certainly this romantic notion of
being a warrior but there's a romantic
notion of war that somehow there's a
creative force to it that because we
fight out of that fighting comes culture
comes music and art and more and more
desire to create with the societies that
win and to me war is not just hey I have
a stick and I want your land it's some
kind of it like it has echoes of the the
creative force that makes humans unique
to other animals like Wars you you it
can't be just four people or 10 people
or 100 people you have to have thousands
of people agreeing usually thousands or
more for something so deeply that you
would be willing to risk your own life
and there's a romantic notion to that
and because you've written so well and
passionate about some of these I wanted
to see
because I don't have any answers I
wanted to untangle that if there is a
reason we fight that's more than just
anger and hate and wanting to conquer
well let me take it from a completely
different side I don't think that I in
writing about war am really that
interested in war per se I'm more
interested in the metaphor I think for
me I'm really writing about my own
internal war and and the war against
myself and against my own resistance my
own negativity all of those things that
are that spirituality would would be the
opposite of so so I'm not really an
expert on war it's not like talking to
Jim mattis or to you know Victor Davis
Hanson or whatever to me the human being
we are spiritual beings in a physical
envelope and there's a automatic
terrible tension within that and and
which creates a war inside ourselves so
the outer the outer war when I when I
think about the Israeli army standing up
to you know whatever 10 to 1 odds or
whatever it was that is a metaphor to me
of the fight we were fighting inside
ourselves it for me the six-day war was
as you know my feeling was it was about
a return from exile it was sort of the
culmination of the reestablishment of
the State of Israel which had never
really been completed because the
holiest places of the Jewish people were
in the hands of their enemies so now on
the other hand Alexander the Great's
conquests I think were a whole other
different scenario where the metaphor
was that Alexander's father Philip I
think created the first nation capital
and nation
and he created a sort of a pathway for
these guys who were mountain men and
basically barbarians Macedonians and
Crete by creating this army and this
dream of conquering the world which
Alexander took to the you know really
enacted he gave them a way of rising out
of themselves of transcending themselves
not just individually but as a people so
that would go along with what you're
saying Lex of a certain creativity to it
but but again that's not for whatever
I'm just realizing this as I'm answering
this that's not really what's
interesting to me about these stories
and the Spartans to what was a hole at
Thermopylae that was a whole other kind
of metaphor of war that was a sort of a
willingly going to one's own death for a
greater cause just like to me the
Spartans at Thermopylae enacted as a
group what Jesus Christ enacted as an
individual a sacrifice of their lives
for the greater for the greater good I
don't know if that answers your question
but that's how I that's how I see it I
do feel like you know I get invited to
speak to Marine Corps groups and things
like that all the time and I decline
because I don't really feel like I'm a
spokesman for the warrior class or
anything like that it's not that's not
what's interesting about it to me but
didn't you just say with Wars a metaphor
that we're all essentially in various
ways warriors if we think of it in terms
of Union archetypes and think of our
life as at least as some as males and
the earliest archetypes that kick in are
the youth and the wanderer and the
student and that kind of thing and then
at some point around age 15 to 20
whatever the warrior archetype kicks in
and we want to play football I want to
do martial arts we want to join the
Special Forces we want to hang out with
our buddies that's our great bond we
want to test ourselves against adversity
and so on and so forth but at some point
that archetype we move beyond that
archetype and we become fathers and and
teachers and so on and so forth and then
there are many archetypes beyond that
towards the end so I'm I'm interested in
the warrior archetype but not to the
be-all and end-all of everything else
you know there's a in in my book the
virtues of war I have you read that
there's a character named telamon who's
actually it's a long story but when he's
with Alexander's army and when they
arrive in India he becomes fascinated by
the gymnast fists the fuckers the naked
wise men the the Yogi's and he says to
Alexander that these guys are our
warriors beyond what we are even though
they do nothing because they are inside
their own selves you know all day long
if we if we go to the Six Day War you
write about in Lionsgate you write about
the six-day war in Israel I think of the
wars you've written about it's the one
we're still in many ways in the midst of
today yes so what is it the core of that
conflict and
the israeli-palestinian conflict I mean
today it's the israeli-palestinian
conflict but it's uh echoes of the same
conflict in that part of the world with
Israel what is in your sense the nature
of that conflict what can we learn about
society and human nature from that
conflict that is one of the hottest
conflicts that still goes on today well
when I was working on the Lionsgate
about the six-day war I wrote in the in
the introduction that this was not going
to be a multi-sided story I was taking
it entirely I'm a Jew I identify with
the Israeli people I was gonna see it
entirely from their side so that's
probably not what you're asking but to
me the six-day war and that whole you
know it's it's a piece of land that's
holy to at least three religions and
probably more and from the Jewish point
of view it's where the State of Israel
it's where David founded Jerusalem it's
all whether twelve tribes were etc.etc
Moses came and brought the people so to
to me the the the six-day war was about
as I said a return from exile from
diaspora after 2,000 years now obviously
from the Palestinian point of view or
the Saudi Arabian point of view or
whatever as it's a whole other scenario
the religion is at the core of this
conflict in some ways the religious
beliefs religion and racial / ethnic
tribal identity I mean what is a Jew is
a Jew somebody that believes in the
religion or is it somebody of a certain
race that who that race arose in a
certain place same thing as a Muslim
what is a Muslim and they believe in you
know Muhammad or whatever or did they
arise in a certain place and a certain
ethnicity because if we landed from Mars
we couldn't tell a Jew from a
Palestinian could we you know just
looking at them you could easily mix
them and you'd never know and the the
specifics of the faith is not
necessarily the thing that defines no
person I don't think so the be like many
are secular Jew living in Israel and
still have a strong bond only definitely
in fact almost all of the Jews the
fighters that I spoke to from the
six-day war were secular and it really
was not you know a religious thing with
them as much as it was a national thing
so having spent time in Israel how's the
world where military conflict is
directly felt as opposed to maybe if we
look at the US was distant and far away
how is that world different how are the
people different it's very different as
you know yeah I've never been to Israel
actually we haven't even felt it ah well
you should definitely go I mean here in
the United States where when like
there's an incident like Charlottesville
comes up you know where people are
chanting Jews will not replace us blah
blah blah the impulse and the Jewish
community is to think about how can we
reach out to the other side you know how
can how can we show them that we are
human beings like they are and show them
that we care for them at cetera et
cetera that's the sort of distant from
war from if you're in Israel and you
know like if you and I were we're
Israeli citizens right now you would be
a fighter pilot or a tank commander or
whatever you know you would not just be
as you know working at MIT or whatever
and I would be in the Army too and so
from their point of view they say all
those people who hate us can I curse on
this court this thing that fuck them
will kill them kill you know if they
dare to cross the line and that's
they're a whole different point of view
to me it's actually a healthier point of
view you think so
yeah there's no so let me ask the hard
question is
well maybe it's an impossible questions
how do we resolve that conflict in
Israel and in Israel or anywhere
anywhere where the instinct is to reach
out in us and say a few and in the
people yeah here's my here's I think
that the only way that two warring sides
or two sides that are opposed to one
another can ever really come together is
when there's mutual respect we get to
some more water
when there's mutual respect and and and
as and they can see each other as equals
and theirs and when there's mutual fear
you know where where one side says we
don't dare cross a line with this other
side and the other side says the same
thing I think then you can kind of reach
across that thing and say okay they will
stay here you stay here we'll we'll
mingle in cultural ways in will have
interchange you know winter marriage dah
dah dah but as soon as one side has no
power as the Jewish people have had no
power throughout the Diaspora forever
right then it's just a human nature you
can see it in Trump and what he does to
any vulnerable minority right um it's
it's and he's not alone I'm not blaming
chemo alone that's human nature so I do
think that that idea of like fuck you if
you cross the line will kill you it's
really a good way is it's a good place
to start from because now you can sit
down on opposite sides of the table and
say you know what do we have in common
how can we we want to raise our children
you want to raise your children how can
we do this in a way that's that we're
not hurting each other so you kind of
said that he to arrive at a ballot some
kind of balance of power yet you haven't
spoken to the fact that there is deeply
rooted hatred
of the other so is there no way to
alleviate that hatred or is that I mean
what what role does love but hatred can
go away I really do I mean if you look
at even even now that I haven't seen
this in person but they say that the
Saudis and the Israelis are
collaborating on certain things you know
by their mutual fear of or antagonism to
Iran I do think that even really long
long long standing hatreds and
animosities thousands of years old can
can go away under the right
circumstances in uh on what timescale I
mean that for instance I don't know that
somebody thinking people have to die do
generations have to die and pass away
and new generations come up with less
hate or can a single individual learn to
not hate I think a single individual can
learn to not hate because it certainly
doesn't seem to over thousands of years
doesn't seem to work you know we keep
thinking that that's going to happen but
I think it's we're in a real spiritual
realm here when you're talking about
that you're in a realm of you know
Buddha Jesus whatever something like
that that we're a you know a a true
change of soul it happens but I do think
that's possible so what do you think is
the future of warfare especially with
what many people see is the expansion of
the military industrial conflict to what
do you I know you're not a military
historian
I'm asking more as a metaphor uh-huh and
we'll do you see us as people continuing
to fight you know it's a really great
question likes because because I think
now with social media TV movies all of
these things that create empathy across
cultures it becomes harder and harder I
think I think to totally demonize the
other the way it was in previous Wars I
also think I don't really see an
appetite for people wanting to go to war
these days I and in a way I don't know
if that's good or bad it's like
everybody's so fat and lazy and so
concerned with how many clicks they're
getting that you know whereas I know at
the start of World War one that both the
younger generations were eager to go to
war you know I think it was it was it
was insane but it was that sort of
warrior archetype that we were talking
about before that that generational
testosterone arrows thing wears nowadays
I don't know I mean it's hard to say
there's not gonna be another war because
there always are but it's sort of hard
to imagine people getting off their ass
these days to do anything well it's
funny that you mention social media as
the place for empathy sure but it's in a
sense that's the place for for war or
death from hatred and and perhaps the
positive aspects of hatred on social
media is that it's somewhat less harmful
than murder
and so it kind of dissipates sort of the
hate folds you get the hate out at yeah
and uh you know it'll s yeah on a daily
basis and thereby never boils up to a
point where you want to kill it's also a
really weird thing that's going on I
don't know if anybody really understands
like with videogames where kids are
acting out these incredible horror
things right but you know that if they
cut their finger they would like freak
out I know and and I also don't think
that many of the people that are hateful
on social media if they were face to
face with the horse and they wouldn't so
there's a sort of a to to mental spheres
happening at the same time and I don't
know how that maps that out military how
that actually Maps the military
yeah yeah it's like when you uni United
States have a draft for example what how
the populace will respond different than
they did in previous generation yeah I
think they certainly would yeah
another question not sure if you thought
about it but I work on building
artificial intelligence systems in our
community many people worried about AI
being used in war so automating the
killing process the with with with
drones and in general is being used more
and more
I should recuse myself on that when I
really haven't thought about haven't
thought about it I'd rather ask you are
you thinking
well it's interesting I mean because
it's so fundamentally different from if
you look at the Battle of Thermopylae it
means just if we talk about the
different scene a gun and a sword I'll
tell you one Atlanta coat
there was a Spartan King I don't know
which one it was but at one point they
showed him a new invention and it could
launch a bolt that would you know kill
someone at a range of 200 yards and the
king wept and said alas valor is no more
was there a point of view of war it was
highly ritualized as you know and the
the the code of honor was that you were
not supposed to be able to kill another
person unless you yourself were an equal
danger of being killed and any other way
of doing that even bow and arrow was
considered less than manly and less than
honorable and maybe we should go back to
that because at least it makes the
stakes real and true and not that we
could not not that's the point you were
in the Marine Corps so if we talk about
the real the bloody conflicts you've
written about many of them
so let me ask a personal question
have you sort of as writing and in
general have you thought about what it
takes to kill a person if you yourself
could do it yeah well not about it yeah
and how that would make you feel of
course
one never knows I certainly I have not
been in combat I haven't killed anybody
but I would imagine in the real world
that it would change you utterly forever
because you can't help but identify with
a person that you've just killed and
it's another human being and I mean I
have a hard time killing a spider so I
would imagine that it's something that
warriors understand and nobody else
understands and he's spoken with many
how I mean you've spoken with people who
seem military combat oh yeah in Israel
what have they been able to articulate
the the experience of killing it's this
sort of just what I said I mean I'm even
thinking of one pilot that I interviewed
over there who you know was strafing a
tank in his Mustang and saw and at
really low altitude and you know saw
what his bullets did to the guy and
could see his face and everything like
that which is even you know one remove
or more removes from an infantryman when
an infantryman does and he said that
that same thing that I said that it just
changes you and you can never say it
they never look at the world or look at
anything the same way again and when
that happened that scale the thousands
the thousands of hundred yeah that
changes entire societies that's what
we've seen well at least it but the
problem is it doesn't change the
politicians back home right
how important is mortality
finiteness the the fact that this thing
ends to the creative process so killing
in war really emphasizes that but in
general the fact that this thing ends
gee it does it does shit and I was
serious no do you think about your own
mortality do you meditate on your own
mortality when you think about the work
you do other great question Lex actually
I'm 75 and I just was having I had
breakfast in New York a few months ago
with a friend of mine who spiked my
exact same age and I said to him I said
Nick do you ever think about mortality
and he said every fucking minute every
day and I was kind of relieved to hear
that because I do I do too
but I actually I always have I think and
I think you know the fact of mortality
is kind of gives meaning to life you
know I think that's why we want to
create that's why we want to make a mark
of some kind or and the other aspect of
it is what's on the other side of that
mortality I'm a believer in previous
lives so I I sort of and I the question
I've never been able to answer among
many many others just like why are we
even here right why are we in the flesh
you know I sort of I like to believe
that God or some force is we're on some
kind of journey but I'm not sure why why
we were put in this world where the
ground rules are if you think about
animal life that you cannot live from
one day to the next without killing and
eating some other form of life and what
a demented thing yeah you know why
couldn't we just have a solar panel on
our head and you know be friends with
everybody so I sort of I don't get what
that was all about but that's
sort of the big issue I have you read
the earners Becker's denial of death for
example is that Ernest Becker is a
philosopher that said that the death
that the fear of death is really the
primary driver of everything we do so
Freud had what the right I would agree
with that
so did you you've always thought about
your even your own mortality yes
definitely and can you elaborate on the
the reincarnation aspect what you were
talking about like that we kind of
what's your sense that we had previous
lies in what have you thought concretely
or is it a lot of it kind of as no I
thought can concretely about really I
mean it's very clear when you see
children young kids or even dogs and
cats that they come into the world with
personalities you know and three kids
and a family are going to become
completely different and completely
their own person and and and that person
that they are doesn't change over life
and I you know there's one of the things
that I did in my book the artist journey
is that there were certain things where
I tracked or just listed in order like
all of Bruce Springsteen's albums or all
of Philip Roth's books you know kind of
a body of work throughout over you know
a period of 30 40 50 years you know and
you can see that there's a theme running
through all of those things that it's
completely unique to that person nobody
else could have written Philip Roth's
books or Bruce Springsteen songs and you
can even see sort of a destiny there so
I asked myself well where did that come
from what it's it seems to be a
continuation of something that was that
happened before and that will lead to
something else because it's not starting
from scratch it seems like there's a
a calling a destiny in there already
this gets back to the Meuse and all that
kind of thing so yeah it's almost like
the there's this let's call it a God
it's passing it's almost like sampling
parts of a previous human that has lived
and putting that those into the new one
sampling this is probably a pretty good
work that taking some of the good boy
you can't take all the good parts
because the bad parts is what makes the
person right let's say taking all
together okay
this is humans only does it pass around
from animals in your view is they I
don't know that's above my pay grade I
don't know so okay see you talk about
the muse as the source of ideas maybe
since you've gotten a few glimpses of
her in your writing tell me let me what
is it possible for you to tell me about
about her
where does she reside what does she look
like I mean you can look at in many
different ways right the Greeks did it
in an anthropomorphic way right they
created gods or like human beings but if
you look at it from a Kabbalistic Jewish
perspective Jewish mysticism you could
say that it's the solo neshama right
that the soul is above us on a higher
plane our own your soul my soul and it's
trying to reach down to us and and
communicate with us and we're trying
simultaneously to reach up to it to it
through prayer or through if you're a
writer or an artist you know when you
sit down at the keyboard you're entering
into a kind of prayer you're entering
into a different state of an altered
consciousness to some extent you're
opening yourself opening the pipeline or
turning on the radio to tune into the
cosmic radio station and another way of
looking at it this is Anna do you ever
see the movie City of Angels the visual
of the movie it was meg Ryan and Owen
the game yeah I've seen a hip and right
the visual of the movies
was meg Ryan is a heart surgeon and as
she's operating on somebody suddenly
Nicolas Cage in this long duster coat
like Jesse James appears right next to
her in the operating woman he's an angel
and he's waiting to take out the soul of
the Prairie patient on the on the
operating table and she doesn't see him
she's totally unaware of him and so is
everybody else in the operating room
except maybe the guy who's about to die
I suddenly sees him but I kind of
believe that that there are beings like
that or if you don't like that it's a
force it's a consciousness it's
something that are right here right now
and we and they're trying to communicate
to us and like through a membrane like
tapping on that window over there
they're like right out there and they
carry the future they are everything
that is in potential all the works that
you will do Lex your startup whatever
else you're doing they they know that
and it's not really you that's coming up
with those ideas in my opinion those
things are appearing you know it's like
somebody knocks on the door yeah
and puts it in I mean in the Iliad where
gods and goddesses appear along with the
human antagonists on the battlefield all
the time right they'll be you know Homer
flashes to Olympus and then back to the
real world and there's the thing where
one Aphrodite let's say wants to help
Paris and so she says well I will appear
to him in a dream and I'll take the form
of his brother and I'll say bumpety
bumpety bump so that's creatures beings
on one dimension as the Greek sought
communicating with and I believe that
that's exactly what's going on in one
whatever analogy you want to use that
that communication to which degree
is do you play the role in that
communication as opposed to sitting at
the computer if you're a writer and
staring at the blank page and putting in
the time and waiting what so if in your
in your view it is are these creatures
basically waiting to tell you about your
future or is their choice how many
possible futures are there how many
possible ideas are that's a great
question I think there's basically yes
they're all alternatives
you know degrees within it but IFIF you
look at Bruce Springsteen's albums how
much could he have done really
differently yeah he would you can just
see there's a whole impetus we're going
through the whole thing and nothing was
gonna shake him off that you know and
yeah maybe the river could have been
different it could have been called
something else but but he was dealing
with certain issues his conscious self
was dealing with certain issues that
were really out of his control he was he
was drawn he was called to it right
nothing could stop him and so it is sort
of a partnership but I think the
creative process between the creative
impulse that's coming from some other
place or it's coming from deep within us
is another way to look at it you know
it's a like if we are acorns and and
we're growing then to Oaks so the
conscious bird artist who's sitting
there at the keyboard or whatever is
applying his or her consciousness to
that but is also going into opening
themselves to the unconscious or to this
other realm whatever whatever that is I
mean certainly songwriters for a million
years have said you know a song just
came in over their head right home just
all I had to do is write but then you
ever see that thing where of Keats's
notes for a thing of beauty is a joy
forever
it's like covers an entire pay
it's like you know he's crossing this
out and that out yet so though his
consciousness is his conscious mind is
working on it but I saw I I do think
it's a partnership and I think that I
know when I was first starting out as a
writer I worked in advertising and I and
I tried to do novels that I could never
do I was like really unskilled at
getting to that tuning into that station
I just beat my brains out and was unable
to do it you know except and because I
was sort of trying too hard it was sort
of like a Zen monk or a monk of some
kind trying to meditate and just like
constantly thoughts driving you crazy
but overtime you know not would I've
kind of gotten better at it and I can
sort of let go of those that part of me
that's trying so hard and so these
angels can speak a little more easily
through the membrane can you put into
words the process of letting go and
clearing that channel of communication
what does it take that's like another
great question for me it just took I
took probably thirty years and I don't
even I would I guess I would liken it to
meditation even though I'm not a
meditator but it would seem to me to be
one of the hardest things in the world
to just sit still and stop thinking
right and so it's very hard to put into
words and I think that's why these
teachers of meditation use tricks and
cones and stuff like that but for me at
least I think it was just a process of
years of years and years of trying and
finally of beating my head in the wall
and finally little by little giving up
the bet beating of the the head but this
doesn't seem to be any trick everybody
wants a tack these days and I don't
think there is a hack I look at it in
terms of the goddess the muse he's
watching you down there beating your
head in the ball you're like a marine
going through an obstacle course
so a martial artist trying to learn you
know like uma Thurman during the casket
they'll try to make that little for its
punch you know the muse or the goddess
is just sort of watching on Lexi's turn
saying I'm gonna come back in another
couple of months and see if he's still
there yeah and finally she'll say all
right he's had it
he's beaten he's paid his dues I'm gonna
give it to him so the the hard work and
the suffering yep
but you know I'm also being Russian uh
in wrestling and martial arts were big
into drilling technique I was also just
even getting at there's certainly
there's no shortcut but is there a
process so your aunt the practice that
can be the process of practice so you
had to one yet an example of meditation
so it's essentially the practice of
meditation is you I think so same drill
I think is a good way to look at it too
but what do you what are you drilling
you're just sitting and you're you're
writing you know just writing you're
writing your then you're looking at what
you wrote you know you're hitting
moments when it flows you know and your
and your and in your other hitting
moments well you just can't do anything
and you're trying to from the moments
that weren't flowed you're trying to
come back and look at and say what what
did I do
how did it how did that happen or was in
my mind you know but I think it's just a
process of over and over and over and
over until finally it gets a little bit
easier and did you did you always when
you when you read something you write
did you always have a pretty good radar
for what's good enough after it's
written no I think I do now but but no
it was always really hard for me to know
what was good I mean do you edit the
process of editing is the process of
looking at what you've written and
improving it are you but a writer or an
editor
how often do you edit that's another
great question great question because I
do think that in writing the real
process of looking at it is the process
that an editor does rather than what a
writer does the gentleman I was just
talking about the phone is my editor
Sean Cohen who was the guy who bought
gates of fire when he was an editor at
doubleday and who basically when I
finish a book I give it to him and he
and he gives me you know he he editing
doesn't really mean like crossing out
commas it really means looking at the
overall work and saying does it work and
if it doesn't work why doesn't it work
is there something wrong here you know
like if you were building the Golden
Gate Bridge you know and one span was
out of whack you know you could and I
think a really skilled editor what Sean
is understands what what makes a story
tick and he also has the perspective
that I've lost and something I've wrote
because I'm so close to it to say you
know this you know this isn't working
and that is working what kind of advice
is he giving you is it like lay out like
this story doesn't flow correctly like
it's you shouldn't start at this point
or does he even sit back at a higher
level and say I see what you're doing
but you could do better
no he doesn't do that okay but a lot of
it is about genre and kind of the
defining what genre you're working in
and I'm gonna get up here to Jim this
was one where Sean tore this down and
made me start from scratch and what the
the specifics of it were really this is
a supernatural thriller that's the genre
sort of like Rosemary's Baby or The
Exorcist and what he made what he showed
me was that I kind of I had violated
certain conventions of the genre you
know that and you can't do that you know
it's got to be
you know it has to be done the right way
and so he pointed out certain things to
me he must be a prolific reader himself
- actually that's such an it's a tough
job of editor yeah again he was sort of
born to do that he just kind of glommed
onto it and and but since he was his
first job publishing you know cat fur
Hillhurst you know cat detective but you
know he studied how it works what makes
a story work etc etc so he really he's
great and I think any really successful
writer unless they're utterly brilliant
on their own has got to have a great
editor behind them but you yourself edit
as well I'm constantly trying to learn
from him and teach myself everything you
see in my blog posts about that it's
about the craft of writing is me trying
to teach myself the rules so that you
know I'm sure it's the same in martial
arts or anything else right you you try
to not be dependent on that other person
because it's so painful to make those
mistakes you really feel like god I wish
I could get it right the first time the
next time I do it well research would go
through that in research more than
writing so what you do is a little more
solitary uh-huh in research there's
usually two three four people working on
something together and we write a paper
and there's that painful process of
where you write it down and then you
share it with other and not only do they
criticize the writing they criticize the
fundamental aspects of the approach
you've taken I would think so so that's
exactly like you know they would say
you're attacking you're asking the wrong
questions right - yeah and that's
extremely you know pay off especially
when you it was yes
painful and helpful but there's
disagreement and so on
it's and through that comes out a better
product yeah and if is you want to still
have an ego but you also want to silence
it every once in a while so there's a
balance in your book the war of art you
talk about resistance with
capital R as the invisible force in this
universe of ours that finds a way to
prevent you from starting or doing the
work where do you think resistant comes
from why is there force in our mind
that's constantly trying to jeopardize
our efforts with laziness excuses and so
on that's another great question I mean
in in Jewish mysticism in Kabbalistic
thinking it's called the yetzer Hara
right and it's a force that if this up
here is your soul of neshama trying to
talk to you
us down here the answer Harrah's this
negative force in the middle so I'm not
the only one that ever thought about
this but and I don't know if anybody
really knows the answer but here's my
answer I think that there are two places
where we as human beings can seat our
identity one is the ego a conscious ego
and the other is the greater self and
the self in the in the Union sense the
self in a Jungian sense includes the
unconscious and butts up against what
Jung called the divine ground which what
I would call the muse the goddess or
whatever
and I think and the ego is just this
little dot inside this bigger self and
the ego has a completely different view
of of life as from the self the ego
believes I'm going to give you a long
answer here like no perfect the ego
believes that death is real the ego
believes that time and space are real
the ego believes that each one of us is
separate from the other
I'm separate from you I could punch you
in the face and it wouldn't hurt me it
would only hurt you and in the egos
world the dominant emotion is fear
because we were all made of flesh we can
all die we can all be hurt we can all be
ruined bumpity-bump so we were
protecting ourselves and even our desire
to create as we were talking about
before comes out of that fear of death
the self on the other hand
the crater self that butts up against
the divine ground believes that death is
not real that time and space are not
real that the gods travel swiftest
thought and the ego also believes that I
mean the self believes that there's no
difference between you and me that we're
all one if I hurt you I hurt myself
karma right and in the world of the self
of the greater self the dominant emotion
is love not fear now so I think that let
me I'll go farther back here a long way
to answer your question when Jesus died
on the cross or when the 300 Spartans
willingly sacrificed their lives at
Thermopylae they were acting according
to the rules of the self death is not
real no difference between you and me
time and space are not real predominant
emotion is love so in my opinion we as
conscious human vessels have are in a
struggle between these two things the
ego and the self to me resistance is the
voice of the ego saying and it's a
fearful voice because if when we
identify with the self we move our
consciousness over to the self as as
artists or scientists opening ourselves
up to the cosmic dimension to the to the
other forces the ego is tremendously
threatened by that because if we're if
we're in that space that headspace we
don't need the ego anymore so I think
resistance is a voice of the ego trying
to keep control of us you there in a way
I'll give you a bad example Trump is the
ego it's probably a very good example
right you know it's a zero-sum world for
him yes and for anybody that's in that
and the opposite of that would be
somebody like Martin Luther King or
Gandhi and that's of course why they all
wind up getting assassinated
because that voice that ego is hanging
on to itself and feels so threatened
yeah by I could talk more about this if
you want to know for sure that that's
that's fascinating is just it's
interesting why the fear is attached the
ego I really like this dichotomy of ego
and self and that struggle
it's just ego has a you know the the
self obsession of it why why fear such a
predominant thing like why is resistance
trying to undermine everything the it's
very here it's out of fear let's think
about the whole thing in terms of
stories in a story the villain is always
resistance is always the ego the hero is
is always of course always not
everything but you know what I mean
pretty much it represents kind of the
self if you think about the alien on the
spaceship that's like the ultimate kind
of villain it keeps changing form right
first it goes on the guy's face then it
pops out of his chest but it always just
has that one monomaniacal thing to
destroy you know and just like the ego
just like resistance and maybe alien is
a bad example because Sigourney Weaver
has to sort of fight on the same terms
as as the alien but maybe a better
example might be something like
Casablanca where in the end the Pumphrey
Bogart character has to acting operating
out of the self has to give up his his
selfish dream of going off with Ingrid
Bergman Nilsa lund the love of his life
and instead you know puts around the
plane to Lisbon while he goes off to
fight the Nazis and you know in the
desert
I don't know if that's clear but in a
but in almost every story the villain is
the ego its resistance is fear is that
zero-sum thing and in almost every story
the hero is someone that is willing to
make a sacrifice to help others it's
letting go of that fear is what leads
the productivity into success yeah
do you think there's a it that's
probably the answer is either obvious or
impossible but do you think there's an
evolutionary advantage to resistance
like what would life look like without
resistance that sort of that's another
great question I think I also believe
that resistance like death gives a
meaning to life right if we didn't have
it it's gonna be you know what would we
be we'd be in the Garden of Eden picking
fruit and just happy and stupid you know
and I do think that that myth of the
Garden of Eden is really about this kind
of thing you know where where Adam and
Eve decide to sort of take matters into
their own hands and and acquire
knowledge that until then God had said
I'm the only one that's got that
knowledge and of course once they have
acquired that knowledge they're cast out
into the world you and I live in now
where they do have to deal with that
fear and they do have to deal with all
that stuff is the human condition the
human condition and the meaning and the
purpose comes from the resistance being
there and the struggle to overcome it
the overcoming right that's and also the
other aspect of it is that it's not real
at all it's not even like it's an actual
force it's all here right so the the
sort of in a way it's sort of a
surrender to it you know you know or
like turning on the light in a dark
thing it's like it's gone but not quite
because it's not quite because it comes
back again tomorrow morning exactly so
you have to keep changing lightbulbs
every day so what's been uh maybe
recently but in general maybe you know
life what's been the most relentless or
one of the more relentless sources of
resistance to you personally I mean it's
always the same it's about writing for
me and an evolving within my own body of
work you know it never goes away it
never gets any less you have particular
excuses particular justifications that
come out no it's always the same well I
would say it's always its same but it's
really not because resistance is so
protein you know it keeps changing form
and as you as you move to hopefully a
higher level resistance gets a little
more nuanced and a little more subtle
trying to fake you out but I think you
learn that it's always there and you're
always gonna have to face it
so I mean you're but your battle is
sitting down and writing to some number
Awards to a blank page yeah give a
process there with his battle you have a
number of hours you put end honestly
yeah I'm definitely a a believer that
even though this battle is fought on the
highest sort of spiritual level that the
way you fight it is on the most mundane
I'm sure it's like martial arts must be
the same way I mean I go to the gym
first thing in the morning and I sort of
am rehearsing myself faced you know the
gym is called resistance training right
you're working against resistance right
yeah and I don't want to go I don't want
to get out of bed I hate that you know
so but I'm sort of fortifying myself to
to be ready for the day and you know
like I said over not would over years
I've learned to sort of
get into the right kind of mindset and
it's not as hard for me as it used to be
the real resistance I think for me and I
think this is true for anybody is the
question of sort of what's the next idea
what's the next book what's the next
project that you're going to work on and
when I when I ask that question I'm
sorry I'm asking it of the muse I'm kind
of saying what do yo