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let's start with the basics so you've
also formulated a fascinating principle
of the free energy principle could we
maybe start at the basics and what is
the free energy principle well in fact
the free energy principle inherits a lot
from the building of these data analytic
approaches to these you know very high
dimensional time soon as you get get
from the brain so I think is interesting
to acknowledge that and in particularly
analysis tools that try to address the
other side which is a functional
integrations on the connectivity
analyses on the one hand but I should
also acknowledge it inherits all awful
lot from machine learning as well so the
free energy principle and is just a
formal statement that the the
existential imperatives for any system
that manages to survive in a changing
world is can be cast as a an inference
problem in the sense that you can
interpret the probability of existing as
the evidence that you exist and if you
can write down that problem of existence
as a statistical problem then you can
use all the maths that has been
developed for inference to understand
and characterize the ensemble dynamics
that must be in play in the service of
that inference so technically what that
means is you can always interpret
anything that exists in virtue or being
separate from the environment in which
it exists as trying to minimize
variational free-energy and if you're
from the machine learning community you
will know that as a negative evidence
lower bound or a negative elbow which is
the same as saying you're trying to
maximize or it will look as if all your
dynamics
trying to maximize the complement of
that which is the marginal likelihood or
the evidence for your own existence so
that's basically that you know that the
free energy principle of it but even
take us sort of a small step back or as
you said the existential imperative
there's there's a lot of beautiful
poetic words here but to put it crudely
it's a it's a fascinating idea of
basically just of trying to describe if
you're looking at a blob how do you know
this thing is alive what does it mean to
be alive what does it mean to be it to
exist and so you can look at the brain
you can look at parts of the brain or
you this is just the general principle
that applies to almost thing and yeah
and you system it that's just a
fascinating sort of philosophically at
every level question and the methodology
to try to answer that question what does
it mean to be alive
yeah so that that that's a huge endeavor
and it's nice that there's at least some
from some perspective a clean answer so
maybe can you talk about that
optimization view of it so what what's
trying to be minimized to maximize what
a system that's alive what is it trying
to minimize right you've you've made a
big move to make big moves but you've
assumed that the things the thing exists
before the in a state that could be
living on nonliving so I may ask you or
what lysis is you to say that something
exists that's why I use the word
existential it's beyond living it's just
existence so if you drill down onto the
definition of things that that exists
then they have certain properties if you
borrow the maths from non-equilibrium
steady state physics that enable you to
interpret their existence in terms of
this optimization procedure
so it's could you introduce the word
optimization
so what the free-energy principle in
it's sort of most ambitious but also
most deflationary and simplest says is
if something exists then it must by the
mathematics of non-equilibrium
steady-state exhibit properties that
make it look as if it is optimizing a
particular quantity and it turns out
that particular quantity happens to be
exactly the same as the evidence lower
bound in machine learning or Bayesian
model evidence in Bayesian statistics or
and then I can list a whole other you
know list of ways of understanding this
this this key quantity which is a bound
on on surprisal self information if you
know information theory there are whole
there are a number of different
perspectives on this contry it's this
basically the log of probability of
being in a particular State I'm telling
this story as an honest and attempt to
answer your question and I'm answering
it as if I was pretending to be a
physicist who was trying to understand
the fundaments of non-equilibrium
steady state and I shouldn't really be
doing that because the last time I was
taught physics I was in my twenties what
kind of systems when you think about the
free energy principle what kind of
systems are you imagining it's a sort of
more specific kind of case study you
know I'm imagining a range of systems
but you're at its simplest
a sim a single-celled organism that can
be identified from its eco nation or its
environment so at its simplest that
that's basically what what I always
imagined in my head and you may ask well
is there anything how on earth can you
even elaborate questions about the
existence of a a sim as
single drop of oil for example yeah what
but there aren't D questions there why
doesn't the oil why doesn't the thing
the interface between the drop of oil
that contains an interior and the thing
that is not the drop of oil which is the
solvent in which it is immersed how does
that interface persist over time why
doesn't the oil is dissolve into solvent
so what special properties of the
exchange between the surface of the oil
drop and the external states in which
it's immersed if you're physicists say
would be the heat bath you know you've
got a you've got a physical system an
ensemble again with about genomics
ensemble dynamics an ensemble of it of
atoms or molecules immersed in a heat
bath but the question is how did the
heat bath get there and why is it not
dissolved how does in maintaining itself
exactly what actions is it I mean it's
such a fascinating idea of a drop of oil
and I guess it would dissolve in water
wouldn't dissolve in water so what
precisely so why not so why not why not
and how do you mathematically describe I
mean it's such a beautiful idea and also
the idea of like where does the thing
where does the drop of oil and yeah and
where does it begin
right so I mean you're asking the
questions deep in a normal area but what
you can do you see sorry this is a
deflationary part of it
can I just qualify mounds there by
saying that normally when I'm asked this
question I answer from the point of view
of a psychologist we talk about
predictive processing and pretty
decoding and the brain is an inference
machine but you haven't asked me from
that perspective I'm answering from the
point of view of a physicist so you you
know the question is not so much why but
if it exists what properties must it
display so that's the deflation in part
the 300 please we're in the 300
principle does not supply and answer as
to why it's saying if something exists
then it must display these properties
that's that's the other sort of the
thing that's on offer and it so happens
that these properties a must display are
actually intriguing and have this
inferential gloss this is this sort of
self evidencing gloss that inherits from
the fact that the very preservation of
the boundary between the oil drop and
the not oil drop requires an
optimization of a particular function or
a functional that's that defines the
presence of the existence of of this
order which is why I started with
existential imperatives the it ISM it is
a necessary condition for existence that
this must occur because the thing the
boundary basically defines the thing
that's that's existing so it is that
self-assembly aspect it's that for the
you hinting at in biology sometimes
known as Auto poiesis in computational
chemistry with self-assembly it's the
what what does it look like sorry how
would you describe things that configure
themselves out of nothing the where they
clearly demarcate themselves from the
states on the soup in which they are
immersed so from the point of view of
computational chemistry for example you
would just understand that as a
configuration of a macro molecule to
minimize its free energy his
thermodynamic free energy but it's
exactly the same principle that we've
been talking about that thermodynamic
free energy is just the negative elbow
it's the same mathematical common
construct so the very emergence of
existence of structure or form that can
be distinguished from the environment or
the thing that is not the thing
necessitates the you know the existence
of an objective function that it looks
as if it is minimizing it's finding a
free energy minima and so just to
clarify I'm trying to wrap my head
around so the the free energy principle
says that if something exists these are
the properties it should display yes
so what what that means is we can't just
look we can't just go into a soup and
there's no mechanism if free energy
principle doesn't give us a mechanism to
find the things that exist is that what
it what's implying is being applied that
you can kind of use it to reason to
think about like study a particular
system and say dude does this exhibit
these qualities that's an excellent
question but when's the DAAD after I
have to return to your previous question
about what's the difference between
living and nonliving things actually
Society so yeah that maybe we can go
there you kind of drew a line and and
forgive me for the stupid questions but
the you kind of draw a line between
living and existing yeah is there an
interesting sort of distinction
distinction yeah I think there is so you
know things do exist grains of sand
rocks on the moon trees you so all of
these things can be separated from the
environment in which they are immersed
and therefore there must at some level
be optimizing their free energy taking
this sort of model evidence
interpretation of this quantity that
basically means their self evidencing
another nice little twist of phrase here
is that you are your own existence proof
you know statistically speaking which I
don't think I said that somebody did
because I love that phrase you are your
own existence proof yeah
so it's ER existential isn't it you
would have to think about there for a
few days yeah the view that's a
beautiful line so the the step through
to answer your question about you know
what's it good for big girl on the
following lines first of all you have to
define what it means to exist which down
as you
rightly pointed out you have to define
what probabilistic properties must the
states of something possess so that it
has so it knows where it finishes and
then you write out that down in terms of
statistical independence is again
sparsity again it's not what's connected
or what score elated or what depends
upon what it's what's not correlated and
what doesn't depend upon something again
it comes down to the the deeper
structures not in this is as
hierarchical but the suddenly the the
structures that emerge from removing
connectivity in dependency in this
instance basically being able to
identify the surface of the oil drop
from the water in which it is immersed
and when you do that use that you start
to realize well there are actually four
sub kinds of states in any given
universe that contains anything the
things that are internal to the surface
the things that are external to the
surface and the surface in and of itself
which is why I use a metaphor a little
single-celled organism that has an
interior and exterior and then the the
surface of the cell and that's
mathematically a Markov blanket just a
pause I'm in awe of this concept that
there's the stuff outside the surface
stuff inside the surface and the surface
itself the Markov blanket it's just the
most beautiful kind of notion about
trying to explore what it means to exist
you're automatically I apologize this is
a beautiful idea but came out of
California so that's I changed my mind
I'd take it off so sorry anyway so what
you were just talking about the surface
about the marble and so this surface or
this blanket these blanket states that
are this you know the because they are
now defined in relation to these
Independence's and your walker what
different states internal blanket or
external states can which ones can
influence each other and which cannot
influence each other you can now apply
standard results that you would find in
non equilibrium physics or steady state
or
thermodynamics or hydrodynamics usually
out of equilibrium solutions and apply
them to this partition and what it looks
like is if all the Norman normal
gradient flows that you would associate
with any non equilibrium system apply in
such a way that to their part of the
Markov blanket and the internal states
seem to be hill climbing or doing a
gradient descent on the same quantity
and that means that you can now describe
the very existence of this oil-drop you
can write down the existence of this old
up in terms of flows dynamics equations
of motion where the blanket States or
part of them we call them active States
and the internal states now seem to be
Ana must be trying to look as if they're
minimizing the same function which is a
lot of probability of occupying this but
these states the interesting thing is
that what would they be called if you
were trying to describe these things so
what we're talking about are internal
States external States and blanket
States
now let's carve the blanket States into
to sensory states and active States
operationally it has to be the case that
in order for this carving up in two
different sets of states to exist the
active States the Markov blanket cannot
be influenced by the external states and
I already know that the internal states
can't be influenced by the external
space cousin the blanket separates them
so what does that mean well it means the
active States the internal states are
now jointly not influenced by external
States they only have autonomous
dynamics so now you've got a picture of
an oil drop that has autonomy
it has autonomous States it has
autonomous days in the sense that there
must be some parts of the surface of the
oil drop that are not influenced by the
external States and all the Interior and
together those two states endow even a
little oil drop with autonomous states
that the
because if they are optimizing their
variational free energy or their
negative elbow their model evidence and
that would be an interesting
intellectual exercise and you could say
you can even go into the realms of pants
psychism that everything that exists is
implicitly making inferences on self
evidencing now we made the next move but
what about living things I mean so let
me ask you what's the difference between
an oil drop and a little tadpole or a
little larva nor plankton the picture
which is painted of an oil drop just
immediately in a matter of minutes took
me into the world of pants is where you
you just convinced me it made me feel
like an oil drop is a living a certainly
an autonomous system but almost the
living system so as a capability sensory
capabilities and acting capabilities and
it maintains something so what is the
difference between that and something
that we traditionally think of as a
living system that it could die or you
can't I mean a yeah mortality I'm not
I'm not exactly sure I'm not sure what
the right answer there is because they
can move like movement seems like an
essential elements should being able to
act in the environment but the oil drop
is doing that so I don't know easy the
mall drop will be moved but does it
inner of itself move autonomously well
it or the surface is performing actions
that maintain its structure you're being
too clever I was out of service asserted
by a passive it'll all dropped as a
sitting there yeah and the bottom of the
top of a glacier I guess what I'm trying
to say is you're absolutely right you
here you've even nailed it it's movement
yeah so where does that movement come
from if it comes from the inside then
then you've got I think something that's
living what do you mean from the inside
what I mean is that the internal states
the can influence the active states that
we're
acta states can influence but they're
not influenced by the external states
can cause movement so there are two
types of oil drops if you like there are
oil drops where the internal states are
so random that they average themselves
away and the thing can not on a bounce
on average when you do the averaging
move so a nice example of that will be
the Sun the Sun sony has internal states
and there's lots of intrinsic autonomous
activity going on but because it's not
corded because it doesn't have the deep
in the Millennial sense a hierarchical
structure than the brain does there is
no overall mode or pattern or
organization that expresses itself on
the surface that allows it to actually
swim it can certainly have you're a very
active surface but on mass at the scale
of the actual surface of the Sun the
average position of that surface cannot
in itself move because the internal
dynamics are more like a hot gas they
are literally like a hot gas whereas
your internal dynamics are much more
structured and deeply structured and now
you can express on your mark of in your
active States with your muscles and and
your secretary organs yo nam ik novice
system and its effectors you can
actually move and that's all you can do
and that's something which you know if
you haven't thought of it like this
before
I think it's nice just realize there is
no other way
you can change the universe other than
simply moving whether that moving is
articulating my with my voice box yeah
or walking around or squeezing juices
out of my secreting organs there's only
one way you can change the universe it's
moving and in the fact that you do so
non randomly it makes you alive yeah so
it's that non-randomness so that the
that's what so he's a and that would be
manifesting we realize in terms of
essentially swimming essentially moving
changing one shape a morphogenesis that
is dynamic and
possibly adaptive so that that's what I
was trying to get out between the
difference from the oil drop in the
little tadpole then the tadpole is
moving around its his active states are
actually changing the external states
and there's now a cycle an action
perception cycle if you like a recurrent
dynamic that's going on there depends
upon this deeply structured autonomous
behavior the rests upon internal
dynamics that are not only modeling they
data impressed upon their surface or the
blanket States but they are actively
resampling those data by moving they're
moving towards chem it's a chemical
gradients and chemotaxis
so they've gone beyond just being good
little models of the kind of world they
live in for example an oil droplet could
in a pan psychic sense be construed as a
little being that has now perfectly
inferred it's a passive nonliving
oil-drop living in a bowl of water no
problem no but to now equipped that oil
drop with the ability to go out and test
that hypothesis about different states
and beings so we can actually push its
surface over there over there and test
for chemical gradients or then you start
to move to much more lifelike form now
this is all fun theoretically
interesting but it it actually is quite
important in terms of reflecting what I
have seen since the turn of the
millennium which is this move towards it
and then inactive and embodied
understanding of intelligence and you
say you're from machine learning yet so
what that means this this sort of the
central importance of movement
I think has yet to really hit machine
learning
it certainly has now diffused itself
throughout robotics and perhaps you
could say certain problems in active
vision where you actually have to move
the camera to sample this and that but
machine learning of the data mining deep
learning saw simply hasn't contended
with this issue what is done instead of
dealing with the movement problem and
the active sampling of data is he said
we don't need to worry about we can see
all the data because we've got big data
so we need nor movement so that for me
is you know an important omission in
current machine learned and Clara
machine learning as much more like the
oil drop yes but an oil drop that enjoys
exposure to nearly all the data here
single to be spaced as opposed to the
tadpoles swimming out to find the right
data for example it likes food that's a
good hypothesis test down let's go and
movin ingest food for example and see
what not you know is that evidence that
I'm the kind of thing that likes this
kind of food so the the next natural
question and forgive this question but
if we think of sort of even artificial
intelligence systems we just painted a
beautiful picture of existence and life
so do you do you ascribe I do do you
find within this framework a possibility
of defining consciousness or exploring
the idea of consciousness like what you
know self-awareness and expand it to
consciousness thing yeah how can we how
can we start to think about
consciousness within this framework is
it possible yeah I think it's possible
to think about it whether you'll get
again I'm not sure that I'm licensed to
like question you I think you'd have to
speak to a qualified philosopher to
either get a definitive answer that but
certainly there's a lot of interest in
using not just these ideas but related
ideas from
information theory to try and tie down
the the maths and the calculus and the
geometry of consciousness either in
terms of sort of a minimal consciousness
III even less than a minimal selfhood
and what I'm talking about is the
ability effectively to plan so have
agency so you could argue that a virus
does have a form of agency in virtue of
the way that it selectively finds hosts
and cells to live in and moves around
but you wouldn't endow it with the
capacity to think about planning and
moving in a purposeful way where it
countenances the future well as you
might announce you might think an ant's
not quite as unconscious as a virus it
certainly seems to have a purpose it
talks to its friends on Route chewing
its foraging it has a different kind of
autonomy which is biotic but beyond a
virus so there's something about so
there's some line that has to do with
the complexity of planning yes that may
contain an answer I mean it would be
beautiful if if we can find a line
beyond which you could say look being as
cautious yes it would be these are
wonderful lines that we've drawn with
existence life and consciousness yes it
will be very nice what one little
wrinkle there and this is something I've
only learned in the past few months is
the notion the philosophical notion of
vagueness so you're saying it would be
wonderful to draw a line and I had
always assumed that that line at some
point would be drawn
until about four months ago and the
philosopher told me about vagueness so I
know if you've come across this but it's
a technical concept and I think most
revealingly illustrated with at what
point does a pile of sand become a pile
is it one grain two grains three grains
or four grains so at what point would
you draw the line between being a pile
of sand and a collection of some of the
grains of sand in the same way is it
right to ask where would I draw the line
between conscious and unconscious and it
might be a vague concept having said
that I agree with you entirely I know
systems that have the ability to plan so
just technically what that means is your
your inferential self evidencing by
which I simply mean the dynamics
literally the thermodynamics a gradient
flows that underwrite the preservation
of your oil droplet light form are
described as a canvas who has an
optimization of Molag Bayesian model
evidence in your elbow that self
evidencing must be evidence for a model
of what's causing the sensory
impressions on the sensory part of your
surface or your Markov blanket if that
model is capable of planning it must
include a model of the future
consequences who your active States or
your action just planning so we're now
in the game of planning as inference now
notice what we've made though we've made
quite a big move away from big data and
machine learning because again it's the
consequences of moving it's a
consequence of selecting those data or
those data or looking over there and
that tells you immediately that even to
be a contender for a conscious artifact
or you know a as its strong AI or
general it'll know
then you've got to have movement in the
game and furthermore you've got to have
a German team model of the sort you
might find in say a variation or two
encoder that is thinking about the
future conditioned upon different
courses of action now that brings a
number of things to the table which
which now restart think more those
who've got all the right ingredients
talk about consciousness I've now got to
select an among a number of different
courses of action into the future as
part of planning I've now got free will
the act of selecting this course of
action or that policy or that policy or
that action suddenly makes me into an
inference machine of self evidencing
artifact that now looks as if it's
selecting amongst different alternative
ways forward as I actively swim here or
swim there all yes look over here look
over there so I think you've now got to
a situation if there is planning in the
mix you're now getting much closer to
that line if that line whatever to exist
I don't think it gets you quite as far
as self-aware though I think you and
then your you have to I think grapple
with the question how would formally
write down a calculus or a maths of
self-awareness I don't think it's
impossible to do but I think you would
be pressure on you to actually commit to
a formal definition or a Mumbai
self-awareness I think most people that
I know would probably say that a
goldfish no pet fish was not self-aware
they would probably argue about their
favorite cat but would be quite happy to
say that their mom was self-aware so I
mean but there might very well connect
to some level of complexity with
planning it seems like self-awareness is
essential for complex planning yeah do
you want to talk about further graphing
you're absolutely right again the line
is unclear but it seems like integrating
yourself into the world into your into
your planning
is essential for constructing complex
plans yes so I'm mathematically
describing that in the same elegant way
as you however the free energy principle
might be difficult
well yes and no I don't think that well
perhaps we should just can we just go
back that's a very important answer you
gave like I think if I just unpacked it
you know you'd see the truisms or you've
just you've just exposed or as bad but
let me so yeah III I'm mindful that I
didn't answer your question before well
yeah what's the pre hundred principle
good for is it just a pretty theoretical
exercise to explain non equilibrium city
states yes it is it does nothing more
for you than that it can be regarded as
cuz I'm a arrogant but you know it is of
the sort of theory of natural selection
or a hypothesis of natural selection
beautiful undeniably true but tells you
absolutely nothing else you know why you
have legs and eyes and you know it tells
you nothing about the actual phenotyping
and it wouldn't allow you to build
something so the free appraisal directly
then by itself is is as vacuous as most
tautological theories and by
tautological of course I'm talking to
that you know the theory of naturals the
survival of the fittest and once the
fittest doesn't survive while this
cycles the fitter in disc around in
circles is in a sense the free energy
principle has that same you know
deflationary tautology under your under
the hood it's yeah it's two ago it's a
characteristic of things that exist why
they exist because they minimize their
energy while the minified when you as I
finish it'll say exist now you just keep
on going round and round around but the
the what the practical thing which you
don't get from natural selection but you
could say has now manifest in things
like differential evolution or genetic
algorithms and I MCMC for example in
machine learning the
good thing you can get is if it looks as
if things that exist are trying to who
have density dynamics and because of
their optimizing a variational free
energy and a variation of free energy
has to be a functional of a gerund to
model a probabilistic description of
causes and consequences causes out there
consequences in the sensorium on the
sensory parts of the Markov blanket then
it should in theory possible to write
down the generative model work out the
gradients and then cause it to
autonomously self evidence so you should
be able to write down oil droplets you
should be able to create artifacts where
you have supplied the objective function
their supplies the gradients and
supplies the self-organizing dynamics to
non equilibrium steady state so there is
actually a practical application the
free energy principle when you can write
down your required evidence in terms of
well when you can ride down the journey
model that is the thing that has the
evidence the probability of these
sensory data or this data given that
given that model is effectively the
thing that the elbow of the variation
free energy bounds the approximate s--
that means that you can actually write
down the model and the kind of thing
that you want to engineer the kind of
AGI odd artificial general intelligence
that you want to manifest
probabilistically and then you engineer
or artwork that you would engineer a
robot an a computer to perform a
gradient descent on that objective
function so it does have a practical
implication now why am i witching all
about that it did seem rather than to
yes so what kinds of J so the answer to
what it would it be easy already hard
well mathematically is easy I've just
told you all you need to do is write
down your your perfect artifact
probabilistic in in the form of a
probability model probability
distribution over the causes and
consequences of the world in which this
thing is immersed and then you just end
near a computer and a robot to perform a
gradient descent on that objective
function no problem but of course the
big problem is writing down the
generative model so that's where the
heavy lifting comes in yeah so it's it's
the fall and the structure of that
journal team model which basically
defines the artifact that you will
create or indeed the kind of artifact
that has self-awareness so that's where
all the hard work comes very much like
natural selection doesn't tell you in
the slightest why you have eyes so you
have to drill down on the actual feeling
time the actual giant ear model so with
that in mind what did you tell me that
tells me immediately the kinds of gentle
models I would have to write down in
order to have self-awareness what you
said to me was I have to have a model
that is effectively fit for purpose for
this kind of world in which I operate
and if I now make the observation that
this kind of world is effectively
largely populated by other things like
me ie you then it makes enormous sense
that if I can develop a hypothesis that
we are similar kinds of creatures this
is in fact the same kind of creature but
I am me and you are you then it becomes
again mandated to have a sense of self
so if I live in a world that is
constituted by things like me basically
a social world a community then it
becomes necessary now for me to him
further it's me talking and not you
talking I wouldn't need that if as on
Mars by myself or if I was in the jungle
as a feral child if there was nothing
really
if there's nothing like me around there
would be no need to have an inference
that a hypothesis are yes it is me that
is experiencing or causing these sounds
and it is not you it's only when there's
ambiguity in play induced by the fact
that there are others in that world so I
think then the special thing about
self-aware artifacts
is that they have learned to or they
have acquired or least are equipped with
possibly by evolution Jarrett of models
that allow for the fat there are lots of
copies of things like them around and
therefore they have to work out it's you
and not me that that's brilliant I've
never thought of that I never thought of
that that the purpose of the the really
usefulness of consciousness or
self-awareness in the context of
planning existing in the world is so you
can operate with other things like you
and like you couldn't it doesn't have to
necessarily be human it can be other
kind of similar creatures and some
absolutely we would view a lot of our
attributes into our pets don't waste
them or we try to make our robots
humanoid and I think there's a your deep
reason for that that it's this much
easier to read the world if you can make
the simplifying assumption that
basically or me and it's just your turn
to talk and I mean when we talk about
pairing when you talk specifically about
planning the highest.if manifestation or
realization of that planning is what
we're doing now I mean the human
condition doesn't get any higher at
least talking about the philosophy of
existence and kind of the conversation
but in that conversation there is a a
you know a beautiful art of turn-taking
and it mutual inference theory of mind I
have to know when you want to listen I
have to know when you want to interrupt
an to make sure that you're online I
have to have a model in my head of your
model in your head that's the highest
the most sophisticated form of
generative model where the generative
model actually has a gentle model
something else is gently model and I
think that and what we are doing now
evinces the kinds of Geritol models that
would support self-awareness because
without that we birdly talking over each
other or we'd be singing together in a
in a choir you know where which is
probably not that's not a bridge analogy
for what I'm trying to say but you know
we wouldn't have this discourse yeah
what dance of it yeah that's right
Dallas to have as I interrupt
I mean that's beautifully put
I'll really listen to this conversation
many times there's so much poetry in
this and in mathematics let me ask the
silliest or perhaps the biggest question
as the last kind of question we've
talked about living in existence and an
objective function under which these
objects would operate what do you think
is the objective function of our
existence what's the meaning of life
what do you think is the for you perhaps
the purpose the source of fulfillment
the source of meaning for your existence
as as one blob in this soup I'm tempted
to answer that as a physicist free
energy I expect consequent upon my
behavior so technically that we are and
we get a really interesting conversation
about what that comprises in terms of
searching for information resolving
uncertainty about the kind of thing that
I am but I suspect that you you you you
you want a slightly more personal and
financier and but which is can be
consistent with that and I think it's
reassuring it's simple and harps back to
what you were taught as a child that you
have certain beliefs about the kind of
creature and the kind of person you are
and all that self evidencing means all
that minimizing variational free energy
in a net in an inactive and embodied way
means is fulfilling the beliefs about
what kind of thing you are and of course
we're all given those scripts those
narratives very early as usually the
form of bedtime stories or fairy stories
a I'm a princess I'm gonna meet a beast
who's going to transform a baby a prince
and the narratives are all around you
from your parents to the to the friends
to the society feeds these stories and
then then your objective function is to
fulfill exactly
now the narrative that has been in
cultured by your your your immediate
family but as you say also the sort of
the culture in which you made you grow
and you create for yourself
I mean again because of this active
inference this is an inactive aspect of
self evidencing you know not only am i
modeling my environment my ecognition my
my external states out there but i'm
actively changing them all the time and
it still isn't doing the same back we're
doing it together so there's a a
synchrony that means that I'm creating
my own culture over different time
scales so the question now is for me
being very selfish what scripts were I
given it basically was a mixture between
an Einstein and shark Holmes so I smoked
as heavily as possible try to avoid too
much interpersonal contact yet enjoy the
other fantasy that the the you know
you're a popular scientist who's gonna
make a difference and it's like a quirky
way so that's what's where I grew up on
my father my father was an engineer and
love science and enough he loved real
sort of things like Sir Arthur and his
space-time and gravitation which was the
the other the first understandable
version of general relativity and he so
although all the fairy stories I was
told as I was growing up were all about
these characters I'm keeping the Hobbit
out of this because I was quite nervous
there's a journey of exploration suppose
it's not so yeah I've just grown up to
be what I imagined a mild-mannered
Sherlock Holmes slush a lon star would
would do it in my shoes and you did it
elegantly and beautifully Carl was a
huge Island talking today was fun thank
you so much for your time
don't thank your shame
you