Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
euron Brooke one of the best known
objectivist philosophers and thinkers in
the world objectivism is the
philosophical system developed by Ein
Rand that she first expressed in her
fiction books The Fountain Head and
Atlas Shrugged and later in non-fiction
essays and books yaron is the current
chairman of the board at the IR Rand
Institute host of the Yan Brook show and
the co-author of free market Revolution
equal is unfair and several other books
where he analyzes systems of government
human behavior and The Human Condition
from the perspective of objectivism
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let me say that I first read Atlas
Shrugged and the Fountain Head early in
college along with many other literary
and philosophical works from n haiger
Kant lock Fuko wienstein and of course
all the great existentialists from kard
to kamu I always had an open mind
curious to learn learn and explore the
ideas of thinkers throughout history no
matter how mundane or radical or even
dangerous they were considered to be IR
Rand was and I think still is a divisive
figure some people love her some people
dislike or even dismiss her I prefer to
look past what some may consider to be
the flaws of the person and consider
with an open mind the ideas she presents
and yaron now describes and applies in
his philosophical discussions in general
I hope that you will be patient and
understanding as I venture out across
the space of ideas and the ever widening
oron window pulling at the thread of
curiosity sometimes saying stupid things
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Lex Friedman and now here's my
conversation with yuron
Brook let me ask the biggest possible
question first sure what are the
principles of a life well
lived I think it's to live with uh with
thought that is to live a rational life
to to think it through I think so many
people are in a sense zombies out there
there are alive but they're not really
alive cuz their mind is not focused
their mind is not you know focused on
what do I need to do in order to live a
great life so too many people just go
through the motions of living rather
than really Embrace Life so I I I think
the secret to living a great life is to
take it seriously and what it means to
take it seriously is to use the one tool
that makes us human the one tool that
provides us with all the values that we
have on mind a reason and to use it
apply it to living right people apply it
to their work they apply it to their
math problems to science to to
programming but imagine if they use that
same energy that same Focus that same
concentration to actually living life
and choosing values uh that they should
pursue that would that would change the
world and it would change day lives yeah
actually you know I wear this silly Suit
and Tie
it it symbolizes to me always it makes
me feel like I'm taking the moment
really
seriously I think that's really that's
right and and each one of us has
different ways to kind of uh condition
our Consciousness I'm serious now and
for you it's it's a student TI it's a
it's a conditioning of your
Consciousness to now I'm focused now I'm
at work now I'm doing my thing yeah
right and I think that's that's terrific
and I I wish everybody took that look I
mean it's a cliche but we only live once
every minute of your life you're never
going never live again this is really
valuable and and when people people
don't have that deep respect for their
own life for their own time for their
own mind and if they did again you know
one could only imagine look at how
productive people are look at the
amazing things they produce and they do
in their work yeah and if they applied
that to
everything wow so you kind of talk about
reason
where does
uh the kind of existentialist idea of
experience maybe you know fully
experiencing all the moments versus
fully thinking
through is there uh interesting line to
separate the two like why such an
emphasis on reason for life well lived
versus just enjoy like experience well
because I think experience in a sense is
the easy part I'm not saying it's it
it's it's how we experience the life
that we live and yes I'm all with the
take time to to to Value what you value
but I think I don't think that's the
problem of people out there I don't
think the problem is they're not taking
time to appreciate where they are and
what they do I think it's that they
don't use their mind in this one respect
in planning their life in thinking about
how to live so the focus is on reason is
because it's our only source of
knowledge there's no other source of
knowledge we don't know
anything with you know that does not
come from our senses in our in our mind
the integration of the of the evidence
of our senses now we know stuff about
ourselves and I think it's important to
know oneself through introspection and I
count consider that part of reasoning is
to is to is to
introspect but I think reason is
undervalued which is funny to say
because it's our means of survival it's
how human beings survive we cannot see
this is why I disagree with so many
scientists and and people like Sam hav
you mentioned Sam hav before the show um
we're not
programmed to know how to hunt we're not
programmed to do agriculture we're not
programmed to build computers and build
networks on which we can podcast and do
our shows all of that requires effort it
requires Focus it requires energy and it
requires will it requires somebody to
will it it requires somebody to choose
it and once you make that choice you
have to engage that choice means that
you're choosing to engage your reason in
Discovery in
integration and then in work to change
the world in which we live and you know
human beings had to discover figure out
solve the problem of hunting hunting you
know everybody thinks oh that's easy
I've seen the movie but human beings had
to figure out how to do it right you you
you can't run down a bison and bite into
it right you're not going to catch it
you're not going to you have no fangs to
bite into it you have to build weapons
you have to build tools you have to
create traps you have to have a strategy
all of that requires
reason so the most important thing that
allows human beings to survive and to
thrive in every value from the most simp
to the most sophisticated from the most
material to I believe the most spiritual
requires thinking so stopping and
appreciating the moment is is something
that I think is relatively easy Once you
have a plan once you've thought it
through once you know what your values
are there is a mistake people make they
attain their values and they just and
they just they don't take a moment to
savor that and to appreciate that and to
even Pat themselves on the back that
they did it right but that's not what's
screwing up the world what's screwing up
the world is that people have the wrong
values and they don't think about them
and they don't really focus on them and
they don't have a plan for their own
life and how to live it if we look at
Human Nature you're saying the
fundamental big thing that we need to
consider is our capacity like capability
to reason so to me reason is this
massive evolutionary achievement right
in quotes right um if you think about
any other sophisticated animal
everything has to be
coded everything has to be written in in
the hard way it has to be there yeah and
they have to have a solution for every
outcome and if there's no solution the
animal dies typically or the animal
suffers and some way human beings have
this capacity to self- program they have
this capacity it there's not it's not a
A
aasa in the sense that there's nothing
there obviously we have a nature
obviously our minds our brains are
structured in a particular way but given
that we have the ability to turn it on
or turn it off we have the ability to
commit suicide to to to reject our
nature to work against our interests not
to use the tool that Evolution has
provided us with which is this mind
which is reason so that choice that
fundamental choice you know uh uh Hamlet
says it right to be or not to be but to
be or not to be is to think or not to
think to engage or not to engage to
focus or not to focus you know in in the
morning when you get up you kind of you
know you're not you're not really
completely there you're kind of out of
focus and stuff it requires an act of
will to say okay I'm awake I've got
stuff to do some people never do that
some people live in that Haze and they
never engage that mind and and when you
when you're sitting and trying to solve
a a complex computer prr problem or a
math problem you have to turn something
on you have to in a
sense exert certain energy to focus on
the problem to do it and that is not
determined in a sense that you have to
focus you choose to focus and you could
choose not to focus and that choice is
more powerful than any other like parts
of our brain that we've borrowed from
fish and uh from our evolutionary
origins like this whatever this crazy
little leap in evolution is that allowed
us to think is more important than
anything else so I think
neuroscientists pretend they know a lot
more about the brain than they really do
yeah um and that we know fired yeah I
agree with you and and and we don't know
that much yet about how the brain
functions and what's a fish you know all
this stuff so I think what what exists
there is a lot of
potentialities but the beauty of the
human brain is it's its potentialities
that we we have to manifest through our
choices it's there it's sitting there
and yes there's certain things that
going to evoke certain uh senses certain
feelings I'm not even saying emotions
because I think emotions are too complex
to have been programmed into our mind uh
but I don't think so you know there's
this big issue of evolutionary
psychology is huge right now and and
it's a big
issue you know I find
it to a large extent stand as way too
early and in storytelling about expost
storytelling about about stuff we still
don't you know so for example I would
like to see evolutionary psychology
differentiate between things like
inclinations feelings emotions
Sensations thoughts Concepts ideas what
of those are programmed and what of
those are developed and chosen and a
product of reason I think anything from
emotion to abstract ideas is all chosen
is all a product of reason
and everything before that we might have
been programmed for but the fact is so
clearly a sensation is not a product of
you know is is is something that we feel
because that's how our biology works so
until we have these categories and until
we can clearly specify what is what and
where where did they come from the whole
discussion in evolutionary psychology
seems to be rambling it doesn't seem to
be scientific so we have to Define our
terms you know which is the basis of
science you have to have some some clear
definitions about what we're talking
about it when you ask them these
questions there's never really a
coherent answer about what is it exactly
and everybody is afraid of the issue of
Free Will and I think I think to some
extent I mean Harris has this and I
don't want to misrepresent anything
Harris has because I you know I'm a fan
and I I like a lot of your stuff right
but on the one hand he is obviously
intellectually active and wants to
change our minds so he believes that we
have some capacity to choose on the
other hand he's undermining that
capacity to choose by saying it's just
determined you're going to choose what
you choose you have no say in and
there's actually no you he he he so it's
you know so that and that's to me
completely unscientific that's
completely him you know uh pulling it
out of nowhere we all experience the
fact that we have an
eye that kind of certainty saying that
we do not have that fundamental choice
that reason provides is uh unfounded
currently look there's a sense in which
it can never be contradicted because
it's a product of your
experience it's not a product of your
experience you can experience it
directly right so no science will ever
prove that this table isn't here I can
see it it's here right I can I can feel
it I I know I have free will cuz I can
introspect it in a sense I can see it I
can see myself engaging
it and that is as valid as the evidence
of my senses now I can't point at it so
that you can see the same thing I'm
seeing but you can do the same thing in
your own Consciousness and you can
identify the same thing and to deny that
in the name of science is to get things
upside down you start with
that and that's the beginning of science
the beginning of science is the
identification that I choose and that I
can reason and it now I need to figure
out the mechanism the the the rules of
reasoning the rules of logic the you
know how does this work and that's where
science come from of course it's
possible that science like for my place
of AI would be able
to if we were able to engineer
consciousness or understand I mean it's
very difficult to because we're so far
away from it now but understand how the
actual mechanism of that Consciousness
emerges that in fact this table is not
real that we can determine that it uh
exactly how our mind constructs the
reality that we perceive then then you
can start to make interesting but our
mind our mind doesn't construct the
reality that we perceive the reality we
perceive is there we perceive a reality
that exists
yeah now we perceive it in particular
ways given the nature of our senses
right a bat perceives this table
differently but it's still the same
table with the same characteristics and
the same identity it's just a matter of
we use eyes they use a radar system to
you know they use sound waves to
perceive it but it's still there
existence exist whether we exist or not
and so you could create I mean I don't
know how and I I don't know if it's
possible but let's say you could create
a Consciousness right and I I suspect
that to do that you would have to use
biology not just Electronics but you
know way outside my expertise um because
Consciousness as far as we know is a
phenomena of life and you would have to
figure out how to create life before you
created Consciousness I think but if you
did that then that wouldn't change
anything all it would say is we have
another conscious being cool that's
great but it wouldn't change the nature
of our Consciousness our Consciousness
is what it
is respect so that's very interesting I
think this is a good way to set the
table for discussion of objectivism
is let me at least challenge a thought
experiment which is uh I don't know if
you're familiar with uh Donald Hoffman's
work about reality so his idea is that
we're just our perception is just an
interface to reality so Donald Hoffman
is the uh is the guy you see ofine yeah
yes I've met Donald and I've seen his
video and look Donald has not invented
anything new this goes back to ancient
philosophy let me just state
in in case people aren't familiar I mean
it's a fascinating thought experiment to
me uh like of out of the boox thinking
perhaps literally is that uh you know
our there's a different there's a gap
between the world as we perceive it and
the world as it actually exists and I
think that's for the philosophy
objectivism is a really important Gap to
close
so can you maybe at least try to
entertain the idea
that that there is more to reality than
our minds can perceive well I don't
understand what more means right of
course there's more to reality than what
our senses perceive that is uh for
example I don't know certain certain
elements uh have uh radiation right
uranium has rad I can't perceive
radiation the beauty of human reason is
I can I can through experimentation
discover the phenomena of radiation then
actually measure radiation and I don't
worry about it I can't perceive the
world the way a bat perceives the world
and I might not be able to see certain
things that but I can we've created
radar so a we understand how a bat
perceives the world and I can mimic it
through a radar screen and create and
images like the bat its Consciousness
somehow perceives it right
so the beauty of human reason is our
capacity to understand the world beyond
what our senses give us directly at the
end everything comes in through our
senses but we can understand things that
our senses don't provide us but but what
he's doing is he's doing something very
different he is saying what our census
provides us might have nothing to do
with the reality out there that is just
a random arbitrary nonsensical statement
and he actually has a whole evolutionary
explanation for it run some simulations
simulations seem I mean I'm not an
expert in this field but they seem silly
to me they they don't seem to reflect
and look all he's doing is taking
Emmanuel Khan's philosophy which
articulate exactly the same cause and
he's giving it a veneer of of of
evolutionary uh ideas I'm not an expert
on Evolution and I'm not an expert on
epistemology which is what this is so to
me as as a semi Layman it doesn't make
any sense and uh you know I I'm actually
you know I have a I have this shiron
book show I don't know if I'm allowed to
pitch it but I've got this shiron book
show first of all let me pause a huge
fan of the BR I listen to it very often
as a small aside the cool thing about
reason which you practice is you have a
systematic way of thinking through
basically anything yes and that's so fun
to listen to I mean it's rare that I
think there's flaws in your logic but
even then it's fun cuz I'm like
disagreeing with the screen when and
it's great when somebody disagrees with
me and they give good arguments because
that makes it challenging any you know
so so one of the shows I want to do in
the next few weeks is is one of my
philosoph bring one of my philosopher
friends to discuss the video that that
Hoffman where he presents his St
because it surprises me how seductive it
is and it's seems to be so first of all
completely counterintuitive but but but
because you know somehow we managed to
cross the road and not get hit by the
car and if our our our sensors did not
provide us any information about what's
actually going on in reality how do we
do that that's and not not to mention
build computers not to mention fly to
the moon and actually land on the moon
and if reality is not giving us
information about the moon if our senses
are not giving us information about the
moon how did we get there you know and
what did where did we go maybe we didn't
go anywhere um it's just it's
nonsensical to me and it's it's a it's a
very bad
place
philosophically because it basically
says there is no objective standard for
anything there is no objective reality
you can come up with anything you could
argue anything and there's no
methodology right my I believe that at
the end of the day what reason allows us
to do is provides us with a methodology
for truth and at the end of the day for
every claim that I make I should be able
to boil it down to C
yeah look you the evidence of the senses
is right then once you take that away
knowledge is gone and Truth is gone and
that opens it up to you know complete
disaster so you know to me why it's
compelling to at least
entertain this idea first of all it
shakes up the mind a little bit to force
you to go back to First principles and
you know ask the question what do I
really know and the second part of that
that I really enjoy is H it's a reminder
that we know very little to be a little
bit more humble so if reality doesn't
exist at all before you start thinking
about it I think it's a really nice
wakeup call to think wait wait a
minute I don't really know much about
this universe that humbleness I think
something I'd like to ask you about in
terms of reason when you you can become
very
confident in your ability to understand
the world if you practice reason often
and I feel like it can lead you
astray because you can start to think
it's so I love psychology and
psychologists have the certainty about
understanding The Human Condition which
is undeserved you know you run a study
with a 50 people and you think you could
understand the source of all these
psychiatrics The Source all these kinds
of things that's similar kind of trouble
I feel like you can get uh into with
when you when you overreach with reason
so I don't think there is such a thing
is overreaching with reason but there
are bad applications of reason there bad
uses of reason or or or the pretense of
using reason I think a lot of these
psychological studies are pretense of
using reason and and uh these
psychologists have never really taken a
serious stat class or a serious
econometrics class so they use
statistics in weird ways that just don't
make any sense and that's a Mis that's
not reason right that's that's just bad
thinking right so I I don't think you
can do too much good thinking and that's
what reason is it's good thinking and
now that the fact that you try to use
reason does not guarantee you won't make
mistakes it doesn't guarantee you won't
be wrong it doesn't guarantee you won't
go down a rabbit hole and and and
completely get it wrong but it does give
you the only existing mechanism to fix
it right which is going back to reality
going back to facts going back to reason
and and and and getting out of the
rabbit hole and getting up back to
reality so I agree with you that it's
interesting to think about these what I
consider crazy ideas because it oh wait
well what is my argument about them if I
don't really have a good argument about
them then do I know what I know so in
that sense it's always nice to be
challenged and pushed and and oriented
you know the nice thing about
objectivism is everybody's doing that to
me all the time right because nobody
agrees with me on anything so I'm
constantly being challenged whether it's
in by Hoffman on metaphysics and
epistemology right on the very
foundations of my knowledge in ethics
everybody constantly and in in politics
all the time so um I find that it's part
of you know I prefer that everybody
there's a sense in which I prefer that
everybody agreed with me right because I
think we live in a better world but
there's a sense in which that
disagreement makes it at least up to a
Point makes it interesting and
challenging and forces you to be able to
to rethink or to confirm your own
thinking and to challenge that thinking
can you try to do the impossible task
and give a whirlwind introduction to IR
Rand
the the many sides of ir Rand so IR Rand
the human being IR Rand the
novelist and irand the philosopher so
who was irand should so so her life
story is is one that I think is is
fascinating and but it also uh lends
itself to this integration of all of
these things she was born in St
Petersburg Russia in
1905 to kind of a middle class uh family
Jewish Family they they owned a pharmacy
a father owned a
pharmacy and uh you know she grew up uh
she grew up uh she was a very um she
knew what she wanted wanted to do and
what she wanted to be from a very young
age I think from the age of nine she
knew she wanted to be a writer she
wanted to write stories that was the
thing she wanted to do and uh you know
she focused her life after that on this
goal of I want to be a novelist I want
to
write and the philosophy was incidental
to that in a sense at least until some
point in her life she witnessed the
Russian Revolution literally it happened
outside they lived in St Petersburg
where the first kind of demonstrations
and and of the Revolution happened so
she witnessed it she lived through it as
a
teenag um went to school Under the
Soviets uh for a while they they they
were under kind of the in on the Black
Sea where the opposition government was
ruling and then they would they would go
back and forth between the commies and
the whites but but she experienced what
communism was like she saw the pharmacy
being taken away from her family she saw
their apartment being taken away or
other other families being brought into
the apartment they already lived in um
and uh it was very clear given her
nature uh given her views even at a very
young age that she would not survive the
system uh so a lot of effort was put
into how do we get how how does she get
out and her family was really helpful in
this and she had a cousin in cousin in
Chicago and uh she had been studying
kind of film at the University and uh
this is in her 20s this is in her 20s
early 20s and uh lenon there was a small
window where Lennon was allowing some
people to leave under circum certain
circumstances and she managed to get out
to go do research on film in in the
United States everybody knew everybody
who knew her knew she would never come
back that this was a oneway ticket and
and she got out she made it to Chicago
spent few weeks in Chicago and then
headed to Hollywood
she wanted to write scripts that was
that was the that was the uh the goal
here's this uh you know short woman From
Russia with a strong accent uh learning
English showing up in in Hollywood and
you know I want to be a script writer in
English in English writing in English uh
and U and this is kind of a one of these
fairy tale stories but it's true she
shows up uh at the cisa B demill
Studios and she she has a let of introdu
ction from her cousin in Chicago who
owns a movie theater and this is in the
19 uh the late
1920s and she shows up there with this
letter and they say you know don't call
us we'll call you kind of thing and she
steps out and there's this massive um
convertible and in the convertible is CB
de Mill and he's driving slowly past her
right at the entrance of the studio and
she stares at him and he stops the con
he says you know why are you staring at
me and she says you know she tells him a
story for Russ and you know I want to
want to make it in the movies I want to
be a script writer one day and he says
well if you want to if you want that you
know get in the car you she gets in the
car and he takes her to the back lot of
his Studio where they're filming the
King of Kings the story of Jesus and he
says here has a pass for a week yeah if
you want to be if you want to write for
the movies you better know how movies
are
made and uh she basically spends a week
and then she spends more time there she
managed to get an extension she lands up
being an extra in the movie so you can
see I man there in in one of the masses
when Jesus is walking by she meets her
future husband on the set of uh of the
king of kings she lands up uh getting
married getting her American citizenship
that way uh and she lands up doing odds
and ends jobs in Hollywood living in a
tiny little apartment um somehow making
a living her husband was an actor he was
you know struggling actors were
difficult times uh and in the evenings
English writing writing writing writing
and studying and studying and studying
and she she finally makes it by writing
a play that that uh is successful in in
um in LA and ultimately goes to Broadway
um and uh she writes her first novel is
a novel called We The Living which is
the most autobiographical of all her
novels it's about a young woman in the
Soviet Union it's a powerful story a
very moving story and
probably if not the best one of the best
portrayals of Life under communism and
the book definitely recommend we the
living it's her first first novel she
wrote in the
30s and it didn't go anywhere because if
you think about the intelligencia the
the the the people who mattered the
people who wrote book reviews this is a
time of Durante in who's the New York
Times uh guy in Moscow who's praising
Stalin to the
and the success so the the novel fails
uh but but she's got a novel out she
writes a small novelet called Anthem a
lot of people have read that and it's
it's read in high schools it's it's kind
of dystopia novel uh and uh it's won't
it doesn't get published in the US gets
published in the UK UK is very
interested in dystopian novels Animal
Farm uh and in 1984 84 is published a
couple of years after I think after an
there's reason to believe he read he
read Anthem uh that and uh George read
Animal Farm yeah just the small Side
Animal Farm is probably top I mean I
would it's weird to say but I would say
it's my favorite book which have you
seen this movie out now called Mr Jones
no oh you've got to see Mr Jones what's
Mr Jones it's sorry sorry for my
ignorance no no it's a movie it hasn't
got any publicity which is tragic cuz
it's a really good movie It's both
brilliantly made it's made by a Polish
director but it's in English it's a it's
a true story and and gej Well's Animal
Farm is featured in it in the sense that
during the story JoJo was writing animal
farm and and he's the narrator is
reading off sections of animal f as the
movie is progressing and the movie is a
true story about the the first Western
journalist to discover and to write
about the famine in Ukraine
and so he goes to Moscow and then he
gets on a train and he finds himself in
Ukraine and it's it's it's beautifully
and horrifically made so the horror of
the famine is brilliantly conveyed and
then and it's a true story it's a very
moving story very powerful story and and
just very well-made movie so it's tragic
in my view that not more people are
seeing it that's I was actually recently
just complaining that there's not enough
content on the the famine the 30s of you
know of of Stu there's so much on Hitler
like I love yeah the reading I'm reading
it's so long it's been taking me forever
the the rise and Falls the Third Reich
yeah I I love it but well I've got the
book to complement that that you have to
read it's called the ominous parallels
it's Lon peof and it's the ominous
parallels and it's about it's about the
causes of the rise of of of Hitler
better philosophical causes so whereas
the rise and fall is more of a kind of
uh uh the the existential kind of what
happened um but really delving into the
intellectual uh intellectual uh currence
that led to the rise of Hitler and maybe
highly recommend that and basically
suggesting how it might rise another
that's the ominous parallel so the
parallel he draws is to the United
States and he says those same
intellectual forces AR rising in the
United States and this is this was
published I think in published in 81 '
82 was published in ' 82 so it's
published a long time ago and yet you
look around us and it's unbelievably
predictive sadly about the state of the
world so I haven't finished IR Man story
I don't want I don't know if you want me
to no no no but on that point I'll have
to let's please return to it but let's
now for now let's talk let me also say
just just because I I don't want to
forget about Mr Jones it is true the
point you made that tons of movies that
are anti-fascist
anti-nazi and that's good but there are
way too few movies that are
anti-communist just almost not yeah and
it's very interesting and if you remind
me later I'll tell you a story about
that but um so she publishes Anthem and
and then she starts and she's doing okay
in Hollywood and and she's doing okay
with with the play and then she starts
on her on on the book The Fountain Head
and she writes The Fountain Head and it
comes out um she finishes it in uh 1945
and she's um she sends it to Publishers
and publisher after publisher after
publisher turn it down and it takes 12
Publishers before this this editor reads
it and says I want to publish this book
and he basically tells his bosses if you
don't publish this the book I'm leaving
right um and they don't really believe
in the book so they publish just a few
copies they don't do a at L and the book
becomes a bestseller from word of mouth
and they end up having to publish more
and more and more and and it's you know
she's basically gone from this immigrant
who comes here with very little command
of English and and to all kinds of odds
and ends jobs in Hollywood to you know
writing one of the seminal I think Book
American books she is an American Author
I mean if you read The Fountain Head
it's not Russian the not DKI it feel it
feels like a symbol of what America is
in the 20th century and I mean probably
maybe you can so there's a famous kind
of sexual rape scene in there is that is
that like a lesson you want to throw in
some controversial stuff to make your
philosophical books work out I mean is
that why why was it so popular uh do you
have a sense or was well because I think
it Illustrated first of all because I
think the characters are uh a fantastic
it's got a a real hero and I think it
the whole book is basically illustrating
this massive conflict that I think went
on in America then is going on today and
it goes on on a big scale politics all
the way down to the scale of the choices
you make in your life and and this the
the issue is individualism versus
collectivism should you live for
yourself should you live for your values
should you pursue your passions uh
should you or should you do do what your
mother tells you should you follow your
mother's
passions and uh that's and it's a it's
it's very very much an individ a book
about individuals and people relate to
that but it obviously has this massive
implications to the world outside and at
the time of collectivism just having
been defeated communis well not Fascism
and and uh in and you know the United
States representing individualism right
is defeated defeated
collectivism but where collectivist
ideas are still popular in the form of
socialism and communism and for the
individual there's constant struggle
between what people tell me to do what
Society tells me to do what my mother
tells me to do and what I think I should
do I think it's unbelievably appealing
particularly to young people who trying
to figure out what they want to do in
life trying to figure out what's
important in life um it it it had this
enormous appeal it's romantic it's
bigger than life the characters are big
heroes it's very American in that sense
it's about individualism it's about the
Triumph of
individualism and uh so I I I think
that's what related and it had this big
romantic element from the I mean when I
use romantic I use it kind of in the in
the sense of uh um a movement in art but
it also has this romantic element in the
sense of a relationship between a man
and a woman who's that's very intriguing
it's not only that there's a uh I would
say almost rape scene right um I would
say but it's also that this woman is
hard to understand I mean I I've I've
read it more than once and I still can't
quite figure out Dominique right because
she loves him and she wants to destroy
him and she marries other people I mean
think about that too here she's writing
a book in the
1940s it's there's lots of
sex there's a woman who marries more
than one person has having sex with more
than one person very unconventional she
having married she's having sex with rck
even though she's not married to rock
this is
1945 and it's um it's very jarring to
people it's very unexpected but it's
also a book of its time it's about
individuals pursuing their passion
pursuing their life and not caring about
convention and and what people think but
doing what they think is right and U and
and so so I think it's it's it's uh I
encourage everybody to read it obviously
so that was was that the first time she
articulated start articulated something
that's sounded like a philosophy of
individualism I mean the philosophy is
there in we the living right because at
the end of the day the the woman is the
the hero of we the living is this
individualist stuck in Soviet Union so
she's struggling with these things uh so
the theme is there already it's not as
fleshed out it's not as articulated
philosophically and it's suddenly the
anthm which is a dystopia novel where
the this dystopia in the future has a
has uh there's no I everything is we and
it's about one guy who breaks out of
that I don't want to give it away but
but breaks out of that so these themes
are running and and then we have and we
and they've been published some of the
early irand stories that she was writing
in preparation for writing her novel
stories she was writing when she first
came to America and you can see these
same philosophical elements even in the
male female relationships and the
passion and the you know you in the
conflict you see them even in those
early pieces and she's just developing
them and same philosophically she's
developing her philosophy with her
literature and of course after the
Fountain Head she starts on what turns
out to be magnos Opus which is at
Shrugged uh which takes her 12 years to
publish by the time of course she brings
that out every publisher in New York
wants to publish it because the fountain
headit has been such a huge success um
they don't quite understand it they
don't know what to do with Atlas
Shrugged but they're eager to to get it
out there and indeed it's when it's
published it becomes an instant
bestseller and the thing about the
particularly the F head and and Al shrug
but true of of even anthem and we the
living she is one of the
only dead authors that sell more after
they've died than when they was your
alive now you know that's true maybe in
music we listen to more Beethoven when
he was alive but it's not true typically
of novelists and yet here we are uh you
know uh what was it 50 you know 60 years
after the 63 years after the publication
of at Shrugged and it sells probably
more today than it sold when it was a
bestseller when it first came out is it
true that it's like one of the most sold
books in history no okay I've heard this
kind of statement any Tom Clancy book
comes out sells more than atly Shrugged
but or read I've heard so there was a
very and I shouldn't say this but it's
the truth so I'll say it a very
unscientific study done by the
Smithsonian Institute yeah probably in
the early 90s that basically surveyed uh
CEOs and asked them what was the most
influential book on you and at came out
as number two the second most
influential book and CEOs in in the
country but but there's so many flaws in
the study one well you want to guess
what the number one book Bible the Bible
yeah but the Bible was like you know so
maybe they serveed 100 people I don't
know what the exact numbers were but
let's say it's 100 people and 60 said
the Bible and 10 said Atlas Shrug and
there were a bunch of books over there
so you know I don't that's again the
psychology discussion what we're having
ex well and it's it's one thing I've
learned and maybe Co has taught me and
and uh nobody you know there are very
few people who know how to do statistics
and almost nobody knows how to think
probabilistically that is think in terms
of probabilities that it is a skill it's
a hard skill and everybody thinks they
know it so I see doctors thinking their
statisticians and giving whole analyses
of the data on covid and they don't have
a clue what they're talking about not
because they're not good doctors because
they're not good statisticians it's not
e you know people think that they have
one skill and therefore it translates
immediately into another skill and and
it's just not true
um so I've been astounded at how how bad
people are at
that for people who haven't read any of
the books that we were just
discussing what would you
recommend what book would you recommend
they read and maybe also just elaborate
what
mindset should they enter the reading of
that book with so I would recommend
everybody read Fountain Head and Aly
shrug and in what order so it would
depend on on where you are in life right
so it it depends on who you are and what
you are so found head is a more personal
story for many people it's their
favorite and for many people it was
their first book and and they wouldn't
replace that right um if Al shrug is a
it's about the world right it's about
what impacts the world how the world
functions how it's a biger book in the
sense of the scope if you're that if
you're interested in politics and you're
interested in the world read Atlas Shrug
first if you're mainly focused on your
life your career what you want to do
with yourself start with fad I still
think you should read both because I
think they are I mean to me they were
life altering and to many many people
they're life altering and you should go
into reading them with an open mind I'd
say and with a put aside everything
you've heard about irand put aside any
even if it's true just put it aside even
what I just said about IR man put it
aside just read the book as a book and
let it move you and let let let your
thoughts let it shape how you think um
and and it'll have you know it either
have a you'll either have a response to
it or you won't uh but I think most
people have a very strong response to it
and then the question
is do they are they willing to respond
to the philosop are they willing to
integrate the philosophy are they
willing to Think Through the philosophy
or not because I know a lot of people
who completely disagree with the
philosop philosop philosophy right here
in Hollywood right lots of people here
in Hollywood love the Fountain Head
interesting Oliver Stone who is I think
a a vowed Marxist right I think he's he
I think he's admitted to being a Marxist
he is his movie certainly reflect a
Marxist theme um is a huge fan of the
fountain head and is actually his dream
project he has said in public his dream
project is to make the Fountain Head now
he would completely change it as movie
directors do and he's actually outlined
what his script would look like and it
would be a disaster for the ideas of the
but he loves the story because to him
the story is about Artistic integrity ah
yeah and that's what he catches on and
what he hates about the story is
individualism right and I think that his
movie ends with Howard walk joining some
kind of commune of Architects that do it
for the love and don't do it for the
money interesting but so yeah so you can
connect with you without the philosop
and before we get into the
philosophy staying on iron
Rand I I'll tell you sort of my own
personal experience and I think it's one
that people share I've experienced this
with two people IR Rand and
N when I brought up IR Rand when I was
in my early 20s the number of ey rolls I
got from sort of you know like advisers
and so on
that of dismissal I've seen that later
in life about more more specific Concept
in artificial intelligence and Technical
where people decide that this is this is
a set of ideas that are acceptable and
these sets of ideas are not and they
dismissed
irand without giving me any
justification of why they dismissed her
except oh well that's something you're
into when you're 19 or 20 that's same
thing people say about nature well
that's just something you do when you're
in college and you take an intro to
philosophy course so and I've never
really heard anybody cleanly
articulate their opposition to IR Rand
in in my own private little circles and
so on maybe one question I just want to
ask
is why is there such opposition to iron
Rand and maybe another way to ask the
same thing is what's misunderstood about
iron
Rand so we haven't talked about the
philosophy so it's harder to answer
right now we can return to it if you
think that's the right way to go well
let me let me give a broad answer and
then and then and then we'll do the
philosophy and then we'll return to it
because I think it's important to know
something about her
ideas she I think her philosophy
challenges
everything it it really does it shakes
up the world it challenges so many of
our preconceptions it challenges so many
of the things that people take for
granted as
Truth uh from religion to morality to to
politics to almost everything there
never quite been a thinker like her in
the sense of really challenging
everything and doing it systematically
and having a complete philosophy that is
a challenge to everything that has come
before her now I'm not saying they AR
thread that connect they are right in in
politics they might be a threat and in
immorality they might be a threat but on
everything there's just never been like
it
and people are afraid of that because it
challenges them to the course she's
basically telling you to rethink almost
everything um and that is that that
people reject the other thing that it
does and this goes to this point about
oh yeah that's when you do when you're
14 15 right yeah she points out to them
that they've lost
something they've lost their
idealism they've lost their youthful
idealism yeah what is what makes
youthfulness meaningful other than you
know we're in better physical shape yeah
starting to feel because I'm getting
older yeah when we're young we you know
sometime in the teen years right there's
something that happens to human
consciousness we almost awaken a new
right M we we suddenly discover that we
can think for ourselves we suddenly
discover that not everything our parents
and our teachers tell us is true we
suddenly discover that this tool our
minds is suddenly available to us to
discover the world and to discover truth
and it is a time of idealism it's a time
of whoa I want to you know the better
teenagers I want to know about the world
I want to go out there I don't believe
my parents I don't believe my teachers
and this is healthy this is fantastic
and I want to go out there and
experiment and and that gets us into
trouble right we do stupid things when
we're teenagers why because we're
experimenting it's the experiential part
of it right we want to go and experience
life but we're learning it's part of the
learning process and and and we become
Risk Takers because we want experience
but the risk is something we need to
learn because we need to learn where the
boundaries are and and one of the
damages that helicopter parents do is
they prevent us from taking those risks
so we don't learn about the world and we
don't learn about where the boundaries
are so the teenage years of these years
of Wonder they're depressing when you're
in them for a variety of reasons which I
think primly have to do with the culture
but also with oneself but there are
exciting the periods of Discovery and
people get excited about ideas and good
ideas bad ideas all kinds of ideas and
then what happens we
settle we
compromise whether that happens in
college where we're taught that nothing
exists and nothing matters and start
being be a be annihilist be a cynic be
whatever or whether it happens when we
get married and get a job and have kids
and are too busy and can't think about
our ideals and forget and get just get
into the norm of conventional life or
whether it's because a mother pester us
pesters us to get married and have kids
and do all the things that she wanted us
to do we give up on those
ideals and there's a sense in which
irand reminds them that they gave up
that's beautifully that's so beautifully
put and it's so
true
it's it's worth pausing on that
uh this
dismissal people forget the the beauty
of that Curiosity that's true in the
scientific feel too is
Uh I that that youthful Joy of like
everything is possible and we can
understand it with the tools of our mind
yes and that's what it's all about
that's what Iron Man's ideas at the end
of the day all boow down to is that
confidence and that passion and that
Curiosity and that interest and if you
you know think about what Academia does
to so many of us right we go into
Academia and and we're excited about
we're going to learn stuff we're we're
going to discover things and then they
stick you into sub subfield and
examining some minutia that's
insignificant and unimportant and and to
get published you have to be
conventional you have to do what every
body else does and then there's the
tenure process of seven years where they
put you through this torture to write
papers that fit into a certain mold and
by the time you're done you're in your
mid-30s and you've done nothing you
discovered nothing you you you're all in
this minutia in this stuff and it's
destructive and
where holding on to that passion holding
on to that knowledge and that confidence
is hard and when people do away with it
they become cynical yeah and they become
part of the system and they inflict the
same pain on the next guy that they
suffered because that's part of how it
works yeah there's uh this happens in
artificial intelligence this happens
when like a young person shows up and
with like fire in their eyes and they
say I want to understand the nature of
intelligence and everybody rolls their
eyes be well for these same reasons
because they've spent so many years on
the very specific set of questions that
um
that kind of they compete over and they
write papers over and they have
conferences about and it's true those
that incremental research is the way you
make progress answering the question of
what is intelligence exceptionally
difficult but when you mock it you
actually destroy the the reality when
when we look like centuries from now
look back at this time for this
particular field of artificial
intelligence it will be the people who
will be remembered will be the people
who asked the question and made it their
life journey of what is intelligence and
actually had the chance to succeed most
will fail asking that question but the
ones that like had a chance of
succeeding and had that throughout their
whole life uh and I suppose the same is
t