Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Lisa Feldman Barrett her second time on
the podcast she's a neuroscientist at
Northeastern University and one of my
favorite people her new book called 7
and a half lessons about the brain is
out now as of a couple of days ago so
you should definitely support Lisa by
buying it and sharing with friends if
you like it it's a great short intro to
the human brain quick mention of each
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as a side note let me say that Lisa just
like manolis Kellis is a local brilliant
mind and friend and someone I can see
talking to many more times sometimes
it's fun to talk to a scientist not just
about their field of expertise but also
about random topics even silly ones from
love to music to philosophy ultimately
it's about having fun something I know
nothing about this conversation is
certainly that it may not always work
but it's worth a shot I think it's
valuable to alternate along all kinds of
Dimensions like between deeper technical
discussions and more fun random
discussion from Liberal thinker to
conservative thinker from musician to
athlete from CEO to Junior engineer from
friend to stranger variety makes life
and conversation more interesting let's
see where this little podcast journey
goes if you enjoy this thing subscribe
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support on patreon or connect with me on
Twitter at Lex Freedman and now here's
my conversation with Lisa Felman
Barrett based on the comments in our
previous conversation I think a lot of
people will be very disappointed I
should say to learn that you are in fact
married as they say all the good ones
are taken okay so uh I'm a fan of your
husband as well Dan he's a programmer
musician so a man after my own heart can
I ask a ridiculously over romanticized
question of when did you first fall in
love with Dan it's actually it's a
really it's a really romantic story I
think so I was divorced by the time I
was 26 27 26 I guess and I was in my
first academic job which was Penn State
University which is in the middle of
Pennsylvania surrounded by mountains so
you have it's four hours to get anywhere
to get to Philadelphia New York
Washington I mean you're basically stuck
you know um and I was very fortunate to
have um a lot of other assistant
professors who were hired at the same
time as I was so there were a lot of us
we were all friends which was really fun
um but I was single and I didn't want to
date a student and there were no and I
wasn't going to date somebody in my
department that's just a recipe for
disaster yeah so so even at 20 whatever
you were you were already wise enough to
know that yeah a little bit maybe yeah I
wouldn't call me wise at that age but
anyways um not sure that I would say
that I'm wise now but um and so um after
a you know I was spending probably 16
hours a day in the lab because it was my
first year and as an assistant professor
and there's a lot to do and I was also
bitching and moaning to my friends that
you know I hadn't had sex in I don't
know how many you know months and it was
I was starting to you know become
unhappy with my life and um I think at a
certain point they just got tired of
listening to me and moan and said
just do something about it then like do
you know if you're unhappy and so the
first thing I did was I I made friends
with a sushi chef in town and this is
like a State College Pennsylvania in the
early 90s was there was like a pizza
shop and a sub shop and actually a very
good bagel shop and one good coffee shop
and maybe one nice restaurant I mean
there was really but there was a the
Second Son of a Japanese sushi chef who
was not going to inherit the restaurant
and so he moved to Pennsylvania and was
giving Sushi lessons so I met this guy
the sushi the sushi chef and we decided
to throw a sushi party at the coffee
shop so we basically it was the goal was
to invite every eligible bachelor really
within like a 20 mile radius MH we had a
totally fun time I wore an awesome
crushed velvet burgundy dress it was
beautiful dress um and I didn't meet any
I met a lot of friend new friends but I
did not meet anybody so then I thought
okay well maybe I'll try the personals
ads which I had never used before in my
life and um I first tried the paper
personals ads like a then newspaper like
in the newspaper that didn't work and
then a friend of mine said oh you know
there's this thing called Net News so
we're going this is like
1992 maybe so there was this Anonymous
you could do it anonymously so you would
you would read um you could post or you
could read ads and then respond to an
address which was Anonymous and you that
was yolked to somebody's real address
and um and there was always a lag
because it was this like a bulletin
board sort of thing so at first I read I
read them over and I decided to to
respond to one or two and you know it
was interesting sorry this is not on the
internet yeah this is totally on the
internet but it takes there's a delay of
a couple days or whatever right it's
1992 there's no web web no pictures
there's no pictures the web doesn't
exist it's all done in asky format sort
of
um and you know but
the but the ratio of um men to women was
like 10 to one I mean there were many
more men because it was basically
academics and the government that was it
those no I mean I think AOL maybe was
just starting to become popular
but
um and so the first uh person I met told
me that he was a um he wor he was a
scientist who worked for NASA
and um yeah um anyways it turned out
that he didn't actually yeah this is how
they brag is as like you elevate your as
opposed to saying you're taller than you
are you say like your position is high
yeah and I actually I would have been
fine dating somebody who wasn't a
scientist it's just that they have it's
just that whoever I date has to just
accept that I am and that I'm I was
pretty ambitious and was trying to make
my career and you know that's not that
that's not an I think it's maybe more
common now for men to maybe accept that
in their female Partners but at that
time not not so intimidating I guess yes
I I that has been said and so um and so
then the next one I actually
corresponded with and we actually got to
the point of talking on the phone and we
had this really kind of funny
conversation where you know we're
chatting and he said he he introduces
the idea that um you know he's really
looking for a dominant woman and I'm
thinking I'm a psychologist by training
so I'm thinking oh he means sex roles
like I'm like no I'm very assertive and
I'm glad you think that you know okay
anyways long story short that's not
really what he
meant okay got it yeah
so and I just you know that will just
show you my level of naive like I was
like I didn't completely I was like well
yeah you know no at one point he asked
me how I felt about him uh wearing my
lingerie and I was like I don't even
share my lingerie with my sister like I
don't share my linger with anybody you
know no no the third one I interacted
with was a banker who lived in
Singapore and
um that that conversation didn't last
very long because he made an anal I
guess he he made an analogy between me
and uh character in The Fountain Head um
the woman who's who's raped in the
Fountain Head and I was like okay that's
not that's not a good that's not a good
that's not a good one not that part not
that scene not that scene so then I um
so then I was like okay you know what
I'm going to post my own ad and so I did
I posted well first I wrote my ad and
then of course I checked it with my my
friends who were all also assistant
professors they're like my little greek
chorus and then I posted it and I got
some like uh I don't know 80 something
responses in 24 hours I mean it was do
you remember the
pitch um like how how you I guess
condensed yourself I don't remember it
exactly although Dan has it um but um
actually for our 20th wedding
anniversary he took our our exchanges
and he printed them off and put them in
a leatherbound book for us to read which
was really sweet um yeah I think I was
just really direct like I'm almost 30
I'm a scientist I'm not looking to you
know I'm I'm looking for something
serious and you know but the thing is I
I forgot to say where my location was
yeah and my age yeah which I forgot yeah
so I got lots of I mean I will say so I
printed off all of the responses and um
I had all my friends over and we were
you know had a big I made a big um pot
of gumbo and we drank through several
bottles of wine reading these responses
and
I would say for the most part they were
really sweet like Earnest and genuine as
much as you could tell that somebody's
being genuine it seemed you know there
were a couple of really funky ones like
you know this one couple who told me
that I was their soulmate the two of
them then they were looking for you know
a third person and I was like okay but
mostly super seemed seemed like super
genuine people and so I chose five men
to start corresponding with and I was
corresponding with them and then then
about a week later I get this other
email and okay and then I post something
the next day that said okay you know
thank you so much and I'm going to I
answered every person back but then
after that I said okay and I'm not going
to answer anymore you know because it
was they were still coming in and I
couldn't you know I have a job and you
know a house to take care of and stuff
so um and then about a week later I get
this other email and um he says you know
he just describes himself like I'm this
I'm this I'm this I'm a chef I'm a
scientist I'm a this I'm a this and so I
emailed him back and I said you you know
you seem interesting you can write me at
my actual address if you want here's my
address I'm not really responding I'm
not really responding to other people
anymore but you seem interesting you
know you can write to me if you want um
and then he wrote to me and uh I um then
I wrote him back and I it was it was a
non-descript kind of email and I wrote
him back and I said thanks for
responding you know I'm really busy
right now I'm I was was in the middle of
writing my first slate of Grant
application so I was really consumed and
I said I'll get back to you in a couple
of days and so I did I waited a couple
days I until my grants were you know
safe Grant application safely out the
door and then I emailed him back and
then he emailed me and then really
across two days we sent a 100
emails and text only was there pictures
and any of that text only text only wow
and then so this was like a Thursday and
a Friday and then Friday he said let's
talk on the weekend on the phone and I
said okay and he wanted to talk Sunday
night and I had a date Sunday night so I
said okay sure we can talk Sunday night
um and then I was like well you know I
don't really want to cancel my date so
I'm just going to call him on Saturday
so I just called I co called them on
Saturday and a woman answered oh wow
that's not cool not
cool and uh so she says you know hello
and I say oh you know it's down there
and she said sure can I ask who's
calling and I said it tell them it's
Lisa and she went oh my God oh my God
I'm just a friend I'm just a friend I
just have to tell you I'm just a friend
and I was like yeah this is adorable
right she doesn't and then he gets on
the phone not high nice to be the first
thing he says to me she's just a friend
so
I was just so Charmed really by the
whole thing so it was it was yam kapor
it was the Jewish um uh day of atonement
that was ending and they were baking
cookies and going to a break fast so
people you know as you know fast all day
and and then they go to a party and they
break fast so uh I thought okay I'll
just um I'll just you know cancel my
date so I did and I stayed home and we
talked for 8
hours um and then the next night for 6
hours and it basically it just went on
like that and then uh by the end of the
week he um he flew to State College and
you know we had gone through this whole
thing where ID said we're going to take
it slow we're going to get to know each
other you know and then really by I
think we talked like two or three times
these like really long conversations and
then he said I'm just going to fly there
and then so of course there's I don't
even know that there were fax machines
at that point maybe there were but
I don't think so anyway so he we
decideed we'll exchange pictures and um
so he you know I take my photograph and
I give it to my secretary and I say to
my
secretary facts this I say this say send
this priority mail priority mail and he
goes okay I'll send a priority mail
Priority Mail he's like I know Priority
Mail okay and then uh so I get Dan's
photograph in the in the mail um and um
you know it's it's him in a in a in
shorts and you can see that he's
probably somewhere like the Bahamas or
something like that and it's like
cropped so clearly what he's done is
he's taken a photograph where you know
he's in in it with someone else who
turned out to be his ex-wife so I'm
thinking well this is awesome you know I
I've hit the jackpot he's he's you know
very appealing to me very attractive and
um and then you know my photograph
doesn't show up and it doesn't show up
and you know so like one day and then
two days and then you know he's he's
like you know you're I said well I I
asked my secretary to send a priority I
mean I don't know you know um what he
did and uh and he's like I said I'm like
well you don't have to you know you
don't have to come and he's like no no
no I'm gonna I'm gonna you know we've
had like five dates the equivalent of
five dates practically um and then um so
he's supposed to fly on a Thursday or
Friday I can't remember and uh I get a
call like maybe an hour before his
flight's supposed to leave and he says
hi and I say and it's just something in
his voice right and I say cuz at this
point I think I've talked to him like
for 25 hours I don't know and he says hi
and I'm like you got the picture and
he's like yeah and I'm like you don't
like it and he's like
well I'm sure it's not I'm sure it's
your I'm sure just not a good you know
it's not it's probably not your best oh
no you know you don't you don't have to
come and he's like no no no I'm coming
and I'm like no you don't have to come
and he's like no no I really want to I'm
you know I'm I'm getting on the plane
I'm like you don't have to get on the
plane um he's like no I'm getting on the
plane and so I go down to my I go I'm in
my office this is happening right so I
go downstairs to my one of my closest
friends who's still actually one of my
closest friends um who is one of my
colleagues and um Kevin and I say Kevin
and I go to Kevin I go Kevin Kevin Kevin
he doesn't like the photograph and
Kevin's like well which photograph did
you send and I'm like well you know the
one where we're shooting pool and he's
like you sent that photograph that's a
horrible photograph I'm like yeah but
it's the only one that I had that was
like where my hair was kind of similar
to what it is now and he's like
Lisa like do I have to check everything
for you you know you should not have
sent that yeah you know but still he
flew over but so he flew where from by
the way uh he was in he was in graduate
school at Amherst yeah at um UMass
Amherst so he flew
and um I picked him up
and at the airport and he was happy so
whatever the concern was was gone yeah
and um I was dressed you know I
carefully carefully dressed were you
nervous I was really really nervous cuz
I I am not I don't really believe in
fate and I don't really think there's
only one person that you can be with but
I
think
you know people who some people are
curvy they're kind of complicated and so
the number of people who fit them is
maybe less than I like it mathematically
speaking yeah I got it um and so when I
was going to pick him up at the airport
I was thinking well this could I could
be going to pick up the the person I'm
going to
marry or not I mean like I really but I
really you know like our conversations
were just very authentic and very moving
and um and we really connected and and I
really felt like he understood me
actually um in in a way that a lot of
people don't and um and and what was
really nice was at the time um you know
the airport was this tiny little airport
out in a cornfield basically and so
driving back to the town we were in the
car for 15 minutes completely in the
dark as I was driving and so it was very
similar to we had just spent you know 20
something hours on the telephone um
sitting in the dark talking to each
other so it was very familiar and we
basically spent the whole weekend
together and you met all my friends and
we had a big party and um and at the end
of the
weekend um I said okay you know if we're
going to give this a shot we we probably
we shouldn't see other people so it's a
risk you know it's commitment um but but
I just didn't see how it would work if
we were dating people locally and then
also seeing each other at a distance
because I you know I've had longdistance
relationships with war and they're hard
and they they take a lot of they take a
lot of effort and so we decided we'd
give it three months and see what
happened and that was it this such an
interesting thing like we're all what is
it there are several billion of us and
we're kind of roaming this world and
then you kind of stick together you find
find somebody that just like gets you
and it's interesting to think about
there's probably thousands if not
millions of people that would would be
sticky to you depending on the curvature
of your space
but what what is the could you speak to
the stickiness like to the just the
falling in love like seeing that
somebody really gets you maybe by way
of um telling do you think do you
remember there was a moment when you
just realized damn it I think I'm like I
think that's this is the guy I think I'm
in love we were having these
conversations actually from the really
from the second weekend we were together
so he flew back the next weekend to stay
College because my birthday it was my
30th birthday my friends were throwing
me a party and we went hiking and we
hiked up some mountain and we were
sitting on a cliff over this you know
Overlook and talking to each other and I
was thinking and I actually said to him
like I I haven't really known you very
long but I feel like I'm falling in love
with you which can't possibly be
happening I must be projecting but it be
projecting but it certainly feels that
way right like I don't believe in love
at first sight so this can't really be
happening but it sort of feels like it
is and he was like I know what you mean
and so for the first three months or
four months we would say things to each
other like I feel like I'm in love with
you
but you know but that can't but things
don't really work like that so but you
know so and then it became a joke like I
feel like I'm in love with you and then
eventually you know I think um but I
think that was one moment where we were
we were talking about I don't
just you know not just all the great
aspirations you have are all the things
but also things you don't like about
yourself things that you're worried
about things that you're scared of and
then I think the that was sort of
solidified the relationship and then
there was one weekend where we went to
Maine in the winter which I I mean I
really love the beach always but in the
winter particularly CU it's just
beautiful and calm and whatever yeah and
I also I I do find beauty in starkness
sometimes like so there's this Grand
Majestic scene of you know this very
powerful ocean and it's all these like
beautiful blue Grays and it's just it's
just stunning and so we were sitting on
this huge Rock in Maine and where we had
gone for the weekend it was freezing
cold and I honestly can't remember what
he said or what I said or what but I I
definitely remember having this feeling
of um I absolutely want to stay with
this person like I and I don't know what
my life will be like if I'm not with
this person like I need to be with this
person can we from a scientific and a
human perspective uh dig into your
belief that first uh love at first sight
is not is not possible you don't believe
in it because there is there you don't
think there's like a magic where you see
somebody in the in the Jack carck way
and you're like wow that's something
that's that's a special little oh I
definitely oh I definitely think can
connect with someone instant in an
instance and I definitely think you can
say oh there's something there and I'm
really clicking with that person
romantically but also just with friends
it's possible to do that you recognize a
mind that's like yours or that's
compatible with yours there are ways
that you feel like you're being
understood or that you understand
something about this person or maybe you
see something in this person that you
find really compelling or intriguing but
I think you know your brain is
predictive organ right you're you you're
using your past you're projecting you're
using your past to yeah make predictions
and I mean not deliberately that's how
your brain is wired that's what it does
and so it's filling in all of the gaps
that you you know there are lots of gaps
of information that you don't you know
information you don't have and so your
brain is filling those in
and
um but isn't that what love is no I
don't think so actually I mean to some
extent sure you you always you know
there's research to show that people who
are in love always see the best in each
other and they you know when there's a
when there's a negative interpretation
or positive interpretation you know they
choose the positive on there's a little
bit of positive illusion there you know
going on that's what the research shows
but I think um
I think that when you find somebody who
not just
appreciates your faults but Lo loves you
for them actually you know like maybe
even doesn't see them as a fault
that's you so you have to be honest
enough about what
you're what your faults are so it's easy
to love someone for all the things that
they um
uh for all the wonderful characteristics
they have it's harder I think to love
someone despite their faults or maybe
even the faults that they see aren't
really faults at all to you they're
actually something really special but
isn't isn't that can't you explain that
by saying the brain kind of like you're
projecting it's you're you have a
conception of um a human being or just a
a spirit that really connects next with
you and you're projecting that onto that
person and within within that framework
all their faults then become beautiful
like little maybe but you you just have
to pay attention to the prediction
error no but maybe that's what love like
maybe you IGN you start ignoring the
prediction error that's maybe love is
just your
ability uh like to ignore the prediction
era well I think that there's some
research that might say that but that's
not my experience I guess um but there
is some research that says I mean
there's some some research that says you
have to have an optimal margin of
Illusion which means that you um that
you put a positive spin on on smaller
things but you don't ignore the bigger
things right and I think without being
judgmental at all when someone says to
me you know um you're not who I thought
you were I mean nobody says has said
that to me in a really long time but
certainly when I was younger that was
you know you're not who I thought you
were my reaction to that was well whose
fault is
that you know yeah um I'm a pretty I'm a
pretty upfront person um I mean I will
though say that in my
experience people people don't lie to
you about who they are they lie to
themselves in your
presence yeah um and so you
know you don't want to get T tied up in
that tangled up in that and I think from
the ge-o Dan and I were just for
whatever reason maybe it's because we
both have been divorced already and you
know
um you know he told me who he thought he
was and he he was pretty accurate as far
as I pretty much actually I mean I
there's
very I can't say that I've ever come
across a characteristic in him that
really surprised me in a bad way
it's hard to know yourself it it is hard
to know yourself to communicate that for
sure I mean I'll say you know I had the
advantage of training as a therapist
which meant for five years I was under a
microscope yeah um you know when
I was training as a therapist it was
hour for hour supervision which meant if
you were in a room with a client for an
hour you had an hour with a with a
supervisor so that Supervisor was behind
the mirror why for your session and then
you went and had an hour of discussion
about what you said what you didn't say
learning to use your own react your own
feelings and thoughts as a tool to probe
the mind of the client and so on and so
you you can't help but learn a lot of
you can't learn help but learn a lot
about yourself in that process do you
think um knowing or learning how the
sausage is made ruins the magic of the
actual experience like you as a
neuroscientist who studies the brain do
you think it ruins the magic of like
love at first sight or are you do you
consciously are still able to lose
yourself in the moment I'm definitely
able to lose myself in the moment is
wine
involved not always chocolate I mean
some kind of mind altering substance
right but um yeah for sure I mean I
guess what I would say though is that
[Music]
um for me part of the magic is the
process like so ah you know so so I
remember a day there was well I was
working on this on this on this book of
essays I I was in New York um I can't
remember why I was in New York but I was
in New York for something and I was in
Central Park and I was looking at all
the people with their babies and I was
thinking every every that each one of
these there's a tiny little brain yeah
that's wiring itself right now and I and
I I just I felt in that moment I was
like I am never going to look at an
infant in the same way ever again and so
to me I mean honestly before I started
learning about brain development I
thought babies were cute but you know
not that interesting until they could do
interact with you and do things of
course my own infant I thought was
extraordinarily interesting but you know
they're kind of like lumps that you know
until they can you know interact with
you but they are anything but lumps I
mean like you know so and part of the I
mean I all I can say is I have deep
affection now for like tiny little
babies in a way that I didn't really um
before um ju because of the I'm just so
curious but the actual process the
mechanisms of uh the the the wiring of
the brain the learning all the magic of
the the neurobiology yeah and or you
know something like you know um when you
make eye contact with someone
directly sometimes you know you you feel
something right yeah and um yeah that's
weird what is it and what is that and so
so to me that's not um that's not
backing away from the moment that's like
expanding the moment it's like that's
incredibly cool you know when I was um
I'll just say that when I was when I was
in graduate school I
also was in therapy because it's almost
a given that you're going to be in
therapy yourself if you're going to
become a therapist and I had a deal you
know with my therapist which was that I
could call time out at any moment that I
wanted to As Long As I was being
responsible about it and I wasn't using
it as a way to get out of something and
he could tell me no you know he could
Decline and say no we're you're you know
you're using this to get out of
something but I could call time out
whenever I want and say what are you
doing right now like what are you here's
what I'm experiencing what are you
trying to do like I wanted to use my own
experience to
interrogate um what the process was and
that made
it more helpful in a way do you know
what I mean so yeah I don't I don't
think learning how something works makes
it less magical actually but that's just
me I guess I don't know would you yeah
uh
yes I tend to uh have two modes one is
one is an engineer and one is a romantic
and I'm conscious of like like the gear
like you like there's two rooms you can
go into the one the engineer room and I
think that ruins the romance so I tend
to there's two rooms one is the
engineering room think from first
principles how do we build the thing
that creates this kind of uh behavior
and then you go into the ROM ROM Mantic
room where you're like emotional it's a
roller coaster and then you're uh the
thing is let's take it slow and then you
get married the next night that you just
this giant mess and you write a song and
then you cry and then you send a bunch
of text and anger and and whatever and
somehow you're in Vegas and there's
random people and you're drunk and
whatever all that like in poetry and
just mess of it fighting yeah yeah
that's not those are two rooms and you
go back between between them but I think
the way you put it is quite poetic I
think you're much you're much better at
adulting uh with love uh than uh then
perhaps I am because there is a magic to
children I also
think like of adults as children it's
kind of cool to see it's a cool thought
experiment to look at adults and think
like that used to be a baby and then
that's like a fully wired baby and it's
just walking around pretending to be
like all serious and important wearing a
suit or something but that used to be a
baby and then you think of like the
parenting and all the experiences they
had like it's it's cool to think of it
that way but then you I started thinking
like from a machine learning perspective
but once you're like the romantic
moments all that kind of stuff all that
falls away I forget about all that I
don't know that's the Russian thing
maybe maybe but I also think it might be
an age thing or maybe an experienc thing
so I
think um we all I mean if you're exposed
to Western culture at all you are
exposed to the uh sort of idealized
stereotypic romantic romantic you know
uh exchange and what what does it mean
to be romantic and um so here's a test
um um I'm see how to phrase it okay so
not really test but this this tells you
something about your own ideas about
romance uh for Valentine's Day one year
my husband bought me a six-way
plug is that romantic or not
romantic like sorry 6p play that's like
an out like a yeah like to put in an
outlet is that romantic or not
romantic I mean depends the look in his
eyes when he does it I mean it depends
on the conversation that led up to that
point depends how
much uh it's like the music because you
have a very you're you're both from the
my experiences with you as a fan you
have both a romantic nature but you have
a very pragmatic like you cut through
the of of uh the fuzziness and
there there's something about a six-way
plug that cuts to the that
connects to the human like he
understands who you are exactly yeah
exactly yeah that was the most romantic
gift he could have given me because he
knows me so well he has a deep
understanding of me which is that I will
sit and suffer and complain yeah about
the fact that I have to plug and unplug
things and I will and moan until
the cows come home but it would never
occur to me to go buy a bloody six-way
plug whereas for him he bought it he
plugged it in he arranged he taped up
all my wires he made it like really
usable and for me that was uh that was
the
best it was the most romantic thing
because he understood who I was and he
did something very or you know just the
Casual like we moved into a house that
went we went from having a two-car
garage to a onecar garage and I said
okay you know I'm from Canada I'm not
bothered by Snow Well I mean I'm a
little little bothered by snow but he's
very bothered by snow so I'm like okay
you can park your car in the garage it's
fine every day when it snows he goes out
and cleans my car every
day like I never asked him to do it he
just does it because he knows that I'm
cutting it really close in the morning
you know when we when we all used to go
to work um I have it timed to the second
so that I can get up as late as possible
work out as long as possible you know
just to and into my office like a minute
before my first meeting and so if it
snows unexpectedly or something I'm
screwed because now that's an added you
know an added 10 or 15 minutes and I'm
going to be late um anyways you know
it's just these little tiny things that
he's he's um he's he's a really
easygoing guy and he doesn't look like
somebody who pays attention to
detail he doesn't fuss about detail but
he definitely pays attention to detail
and it's it is very very romantic in the
sense sense that he
um you know he loves me despite my
little details it understands you yeah
it is kind of hilarious that that is the
six-way plug is um the the most
fulfilling
richest uh display of romance in your
life I love it I love that's mean about
romance romance is really it's not all
about chocolates and flowers and you
know whatever I mean those are all nice
too but um sometimes it's about the
sixth way plan sometimes it's about the
six way plan so um maybe one way I could
ask before we talk about the details you
also have the author of another book is
we talked about how emotions are made so
it's interesting to talk about the
process of writing you mentioned you
were in New York what have you learned
from writing these two books about the
actual process of writing and maybe I
don't know what's the most interesting
thing to talk about there maybe the
biggest challenges or the the boring
mundane systematic like day-to-day of
what worked for you like hacks or or
even just about the
Neuroscience that you've learned through
the process of trying to write them
here's the thing I learned if you think
that it's going to take you a year to
write your book it's going to take you
three years to write your book that's
the first thing I learned is that you no
matter how organized you are it's always
going to take way longer than what you
think um in part
because um very few people make an
outline and then just stick to it you
know the the some of the topics really
take on a life of their own and to some
extent you want to let
them get you want to let them have their
voice you know you want to follow leads
until you feel satisfied that you've
dealt with the topic um uh appropriately
but I and that part is actually fun it's
not fun to feel like you're con ly
behind the eightball in terms of time
yeah um but it is the exploration and
the foraging for information is
incredibly fun for me anyways I found it
really enjoyable and if I wasn't also
running a lab at the same time and
trying to keep my family going uh you
know it would have been the whole thing
would have just been fun um but I would
say the hardest thing about the most
important thing I think I learned is
also the hardest thing and that for me
which is
um knowing what to leave at out a really
good
Storyteller knows what to leave out in
in academic
writing you you shouldn't leave anything
out you you all the details should be
there right and
um and I you know I've written or
participated in in
writing over 200
papers um peer-reviewed papers so I'm
pretty good with detail knowing what to
leave out knowing what to leave out and
not harming the validity of the story
that is a tricky tricky thing it was
tricky when I wrote how emotions are
made but that's a
standard um popular science book so it's
300 something pages and then you know it
has like a thousand endnotes and then
each of the endnotes is attached to a
web note which is also long so I mean
you know it's um
and it start and I mean the final draft
I I wrote three drafts of that book
actually and the final draft and then I
had to cut by a third I mean or I mean I
you know it was
like 50,000 words or something and I had
to cut it down to like 110 so um
obviously it's I struggle with what to
leave out you know brevity is not my
strong suit I'm always telling people
that it's a warning so that's why this
book was a I you know I always been
really fascinated with essays I I love
reading essays and after reading a a a
small set of essays by an fatan um
called at large and at small which I
just loved these little essays what's
what's the topic of that those essays
they are they're called um familiar
essays so there the topics are like
everyday topics like
male um coffee chocolate I mean just
like and what she does is she weaves her
own experience it's a little bit like
these conversations that you're so good
at curating actually um you're weaving
together history and philosophy and
Science and also personal Reflections
and a little bit you feel like you're
like eavesdropping on someone's train of
thought in a way it it's really they're
really compelling to me and even if it's
just like a mundane topic yeah but it's
so interesting to um learn about like
all of these little
stories in the in the wrapping of the
history of like male like that's in
that's really interesting and so I read
these essays and then I wrote to her a
little fan girl email um this was many
years ago and um and I said I I I just
love you I love this book and how did
you learn to write essays like this and
she gave me a reading list of essays
that I should read like writers and so I
read them all and anyway so I decided it
would be a really good challenge for me
to try to write something really brief
where I
could focus on you know one or two
really fascinating tidbits of of
Neuroscience connect it to connect each
one to something philosophical
or um you know like just a question
about human nature do it in a really
brief format
without
violating the validity of the
science that was a I just set myself
this what I thought of as a really
really big challenge in part because it
was an incredibly hard thing for me to
do in the first book yeah we should say
that this is uh the seven and a half
lesson is a very short book I mean it's
uh it's like it embodies uh brevity
right the whole point throughout is just
I mean you you could tell that there's
editing like there's pain in trying to
bring it as brief as possible as clean
as possible yeah yeah so it's I the way
I think of it is um you know it's a
little book of big science and Big Ideas
yeah really big ideas in and in brief
little packages and um you know I wrote
it um so that people could read it I
love reading on the beach I love reading
essays on the beach I read it I wrote it
so people could read it on the beach or
in the bathtub or you know a subway stop
yeah even if the beach is frozen over in
the snow yeah so my husband Dan calls it
the first Neuroscience Beach read that's
his um that's his phrasing
yeah and like like you said you learned
a lot about writing from your husband
like you were saying offline well he's
he is of the two of us he is the better
writer he is a masterful writer um he um
he's also I mean he you know he's a PhD
in computer science he's he's a software
engineer but he's he's also really good
at uh organization of knowledge so he
built for a company he used to work for
he built one of the first Knowledge
Management systems and he's he now works
at Google where he does engineering
education like he's he understands how
to tell a good
story just you know about anything
really um he's got got impeccable timing
he's really funny and luckily for me he
knows very little about psychology or
Neuroscience well now he knows more
obviously but so you know he was really
when how motions were
made um you know he was really really
helpful to me because um the first draft
of every chapter was me talking to him
about what on you know I would talk out
loud about what I wanted to say and the
order in which I wanted to say it and
then I would write it
and then he would read it and um tell me
all the bits that could be
excised yeah and sometimes we would you
know I should say I mean we don't he and
I don't really argue about much except
um directions in the car like we're
that's where're that's if we're going to
have an argument that's going to be
where it's going to happen where what's
the what's the nature of the argument
about directions exactly I don't really
know it's just that we're very I think
it's that spatially you know he he um
I use egocentric space so I want to say
you know turn left like I always I'm I'm
reasoning in relation to like my own
physical corporeal body so you know you
walk to the church and you turn left and
you then you you know whatever you know
I'm always like and his you know he
gives directions um aloc centrically
which means um organized around north
south east west right so to you the the
Earth is at the center of the solar
system and to him no I'm reason I'm at
theer you're at the center of the Sol
system okay so uh anyway so we we but
but here we you know we we had some
really RI roaring arguments like really
rip roaring arguments where he would say
like who is this for is this for the
1% and I'd be like 1% meaning not you
know not wealth but like civilians
versus academics you know are these for
the scientists or for the CI is this for
the civilians right so he speaks for the
for the people
for the people and I'd be like no you
have to and so he made you know after
one terrible argument that we had where
it was really starting to affect our our
relationship because we were so mad at
each other all the time um he made these
little signs writing and Science and we
only us them this this was like when you
when you pulled out a sign that's it
like the other person just wins and you
have to stop fighting about it yeah and
that's it great and so we just did that
um and we didn't really have to use it
too much for this book cuz this book was
in some ways
um uh you know I didn't have to learn a
lot of new things for this book I had to
learn some but I a lot of
um what I learned for seven and uh for
um how tions are made really St stood me
in good stead for for this book so there
was a little bit each essay was a little
bit of learning a couple were was a
little more than than a small amount but
um but I I didn't have so much trouble
here um I had a lot of trouble with the
first book um but still even here you
know um you know he would tell me that I
could take something out and I really
wanted to keep it and um I think we only
use the signs once well if we could dive
in some aspects of the book I I would
love that um can we talk about so one of
the essays looks at
evolution
let me ask the big question uh did the
human brain evolve to think that's
essentially the question that you
address in the essay can you speak to it
sure you know the the big cave out here
is that we don't really know why brains
evolved the the big why questions are
called
teologico those questions because we
don't don't know really why we don't
know the why
however for for a very long time the
Assumption was that Evolution worked in
a progressive upward scale that you
start off with simple organisms and
those organisms get more complex and
more complex and more complex now
obviously that's true in some like
really General way right that that um
life started off as single cell
organisms and you know things got more
complex but the idea that um that brains
evolved in some upward um trajectory
from simple brains in simple animals to
complex brains in complex animals is
called a philogenetic scale um and um
that philogenetic scale is embedded in a
lot of evolutionary thinking including
darwins actually um and it's been
seriously challenged I would say by
modern uh evolutionary bi biology um and
so you know thinking is something that
rationality is something that humans at
least in the west really prize um as a
great uh human achievement and so the
idea that the most common evolutionary
story is that you know brains evolved in
um like sedimentary rock um uh with you
know a layer for instincts that's your
lizard brain and a layer on top of that
uh uh for emotions that's your limic
system lyic meaning border so it borders
the parts that are for instincts oh
interesting and um and then um the uh
neocortex or new cortex where um
rationality is supposed to live that's
the sort of traditional story it just
keeps getting layered on top by
Evolution right and so you can think
about you know I mean sedimentary rock
is the way typically people describe it
the way I sometimes like to think about
it is um you know thinking about the
cerebral cortex like uh icing on an
already baked cake you know um where you
know the cake is your inner Beast these
like boiling you know roiling instincts
and emotions that have to be contained
and the the by the cortex and the the
it's just um it's a fiction it's a myth
it it's a myth that you can trace all
the way back to stories about morality
um in ancient Greece but what you can do
is look at the scientific record and say
well there there's others there are
other stories that you could tell about
brain Evolution and and the the context
in which brains evolved so when you look
at creatures who don't have brains and
you look at creatures who
do what's the difference
and um you can look at you know some
animals um so we call scientists call an
environment that an animal lives in a
niche their environmental Niche what are
the things what are the parts of the
environment that matter to that animal
and um so there's some animals whose
Niche hasn't changed in 400 million
years so they're they're not these
creatures are modern creatures but
they're living in a niche that hasn't
changed much and so their biology hasn't
changed much and you can kind of verify
that by looking at the genes that lur
deep you know in the molecular structure
of
cells and so you can by looking at
various animals in their developmental
State meaning not you don't look at
adult animals you look at embryos of
animals and developing animals you can
see you can piece together a different
story and that story is that brains
evolved under
the selection pressure of hunting that
in the Cambrian Period hunting emerged
on the scene where animals deliberately
ate one another um and what so you know
before the Cambrian Period the animals
didn't really have well they didn't have
brains but they also didn't have senses
really the very very rudimentary senses
so the animal that I wrote about in
seven and a half lessons is called an
amphioxys or a lancelet and um little
amphioxys has no eyes it has no ears it
has no nose it it it it has no eyes it
has a couple of cells for
um uh detecting light and dark for
circadian rhythm purposes so and it it
it can't hear it has a vestibular cell
to keep its body upright um it has a
very rudimentary sense of touch and it
doesn't really have any internal organs
other than this like basically stomach
it's like a just like a it doesn't it
doesn't have an enteric nervous system
it doesn't have like a gut that you know
moves like we do it just has basically a
tube yeah um so it's like little
container like a little container yeah
and so and really it doesn't it doesn't
move very much it can move it just sort
of wriggles it doesn't have very
sophisticated movement and it's this
really sweet little animal it sort of
wriggles its way to a spot and then
plants itself in the sand and just
filters food as the food goes by um and
then when the food concentration
decreases it it just it it just um
ejects itself wriggles to the ne some
spot randomly where probabilistically
there will be more food and plants
itself again so it's it's not it's not
really aware
very aware that it has an environment it
has a niche but that Niche is very small
and it's not really experiencing that
Niche very much um so it's it's
basically like a little stomach on a
stick that's that's really what it is
and um but but when animals start to
literally hunt each
other um all of a sudden it becomes
important to have to be able to sense
your envir ironment because you need to
know is that blob up ahead going to eat
me or should I eat it mhm and so all of
a sudden you want distance senses are
very useful and so in the water distance
senses our
vision and a little bit
hearing um old faction smelling and
touch because in the water touch is a
distant sense because you can feel the
vibration so it's right so in um on air
on land you know vision is a distant
sense touch not so much but for
Elephants maybe right um the vibrations
vibrations um all faction definitely
because of the concentration of you know
the more concentrated something is the
more likely it is to be close to you so
animals developed senses they developed
a head like a literal head so aoys
doesn't even have a head really it's
just a what's the purpose of a head
that's a great question is it is it to
have a jaw that's a great question so
jaw so yes Jaws are a major um useful
feature yeah I would say they're a major
adaptation after there's a split between
vertebrates and invertebrates so
amphioxys is thought to be very very
similar to the animal that's before that
split but then after the development
very quickly after the development of a
head is the development of a jaw which
is a big big thing and um and what goes
along with that is the development of a
brain it's weird is that just a
coincidence that the thing the part of
our body of the M mammal I think body
that we eat with and like attack others
with is also the thing that
contains the u