Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Michael malice this is a special holiday
episode and it is made extra special
because it's announcing the release of
Michael's new book called the white pill
a tale of Good and Evil Michael and I
disagree on a lot of ideas in politics
and philosophy and we have a lot of fun
disagreeing
but there's no question that he has a
deep love for Humanity and puts his
heart and soul into his work especially
into this heart-wrenching deeply
personal book
so I ask that you support him by buying
it at White pillbook.com that should
hopefully forward to the Amazon page
as always we each dressed up in a
ridiculous outfit without coordinating
for the chaos that makes life so damn
interesting this episode is full of
humor darkness and love
which is the best way to celebrate the
holidays
this is the Luxe Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Michael malice
we probably should have coordinated this
better shouldn't we yeah I think so have
you since this is a Christmas special a
holiday special have you been a good or
a bad boy Michael this year well that's
interesting one of the people in the
book Granville Hicks his autobiography
starts with I was a good boy uh and he
wasn't a very good boy
um on a scale of one to ten
I'm trying to think of what bad things
I've done oh okay there's that okay wait
that's not that was no that was not that
that's all right I would say nine nine
yeah I try to do the right thing
okay what are you you're either is it
gonna be one or zero yeah no I'm
extremely self-critical I pushed to zero
okay I reach for the zero
well mission accomplished so this this
episode is announcing the release of the
white pill a book you wrote which is
um I've gotten the honor the privilege
the pleasure of being one of the first
people to read it you're the first so
I'm really I don't know if nervous is
the word but you are the first person
who has read it that I am speaking to
about it my first my last my everything
yes you say that to all the girls but
I'll take all the fem Bots all the fun
Bots but yeah it was a truly incredible
book it's basically a story of evil in
the 20th century
and throughout it you reveal a thread
that gives us hope and that's the idea
of the white pill so there's the the
blue pill and the red pill
there's the black pill which is a kind
of deeply cynical
um maybe apathetic just giving up on the
world given that you see behind the
curtain and given that you don't like
what you see given that there's so much
suffering in the world you give up
that's the black pill and the white pill
I suppose is even though you acknowledge
that there's evil in the world you don't
give up yes so if you're listening to
this and you're a fan of this podcast
you go to White pillblock.com it'll go
to it white pillbook.com and if you
don't know how to spell we'll probably
have a link that you can click on so for
people who also don't know Michael
malice is not just a troll
not just the hilarious comedic genius
who hosts his own podcast but he is an
incredible brilliant author dear reader
the uh unauthorized autobiography Kim
Jong-il so that's a story of North Korea
the new right to Journey To The Fringe
of American politics that's
the story
of uh the extremes of the United States
uh political movements and then the
anarchist handbook that's talking about
the ideologies the different flavors of
ideologies of anarchism but on top of
that you're now going in going into the
darkest
aspects of the 20th century with the
Soviet Union and the communism with the
white pill so
let me ask you uh let's start at the
beginning at the end of the 19th century
as you write the term socialist
Communists and anarchists were used
somewhat Loosely and interchangeably
because the prophecied Marxist Society
was one in which the state had famously
withered away that was a great
disagreement about what a socialist
system would look like in practice but
two things were clear first that
socialism was both inevitable and
scientific the way of the future and
second that the capitalist ruling class
were now going down without a fight so
what are the key points of disagreement
between the Socialists the anarchists
the Communists along that at that time
at the beginning at the end of the 19th
century at the beginning of the 20th
century the possibility of the century
laid before us that eventually led to
the first and the second world war the
idea when the Industrial Revolution came
and Marx was very much a product of the
industrial revolutionary thinking was
okay now that we have technology now
that we have science we can
scientifically match manage Society we
saw this very much with Woodrow Wilson
and this kind of idea of progressivism
that uh you know we could use technology
and kind of not capitalism in their view
unfettered capitalism was wasteful
you're making too much stuff you have
surpluses you have uh shortages if we
produce just exactly what we need and
you have these people Engineers their
engineering Society then you know
everyone will be happy and you won't
have to have any suffering or waste so
socialism at that time was used as a
broad umbrella it's not used in the term
that it means today of
necessarily State socialism it just
meant the idea of having Society
scientifically run so you had a huge
argument they're different Wings you
even had it from the beginning with uh
Marx versus bakunan because Marx was for
obviously State socialism uh the
absolute State running everything
although even with Marx and Engels it
was a means to an end after man is
remade in his very nature then the state
where there's a way and everyone's equal
and you have this kind of Heaven on
Earth situation but coonan you know was
the opposite he regarded the state as
inherently immoral and wanted to have
kind of like workers collectives and
things like that and Ultra localized
control so the end was always stateless
it's just that some people viewed this
state as a convenient effective
intermediate State well I think to me at
least there are plenty of others who
just regarded it you know have the work
have state owner have the workers you
know control the production via the
state by the way how does my hat look it
looks great festive it's good is this
side better than the other side I think
you want it on this side so people can
see you oh no no I wanna you know like
uh when you have like hair or peekaboo
hair it's called Veronica Lake I think
was her name and then I just glance
flirtatiously towards the camera
sometimes I gotta um
foreign
no glove No Love
the bad the bad aspect of white gloves
is uh
the blood stains them
so you have to get new ones every time
and now I glance flirtatiously after
that's there I'm sorry okay marks go
ahead so so there were there were there
were other socialists who did not regard
uh this kind of end times where the
state would do the way at all
um and they're you know very strange in
between where you know you'd have some
capitalism and some socialism uh you
know the concept of a safety net uh came
out of socialist thinking the labor
party uh came out of the Fabian
socialists in Great Britain uh their
their logo was a wolf in sheep's
clothing and then when that was too on
the nose they changed it to a tortoise
meaning we're gonna get to socialism
slowly uh in the sense of either uh
gradualism or boiling a frog and also
the big part of this thinking at the
time this is again the late 19th century
is the idea that there's going to be a
worldwide workers Revolution it wasn't
going to be that you know in one country
you know it was going to happen and then
all the other countries be capitalists
the idea was all right uh like the
workers in Germany have more income with
the workers in America then the workers
in Germany have with the capitalists in
Germany so the idea is all right like
the working class all over the world at
one point they're going to be like we're
being exploited uh it's getting worse
and worse for us we can't feed our
families uh we're getting injured and so
on and so forth and there's no
compensation for this we're just going
to overthrow our chains and we're going
to run everything ourselves we're the
ones running it already anyway
um and you know this was uh doing all
the work and we're doing all the work so
why why shouldn't we be getting all the
benefit
what's the role of violence in all of
this
so this was a big source of contention
so the fabians for example in Britain
who are all socialists they were very
heavily of the idea that we can do this
through The Ballot Box we can Advocate
and agitate and get the people to be
voting for their own self-interest and
furthering the state at the expense of
the capitalist class then there were the
people who were the hardcore anarchists
who were like uh if voting changed
anything they wouldn't let us do it and
the only way to have a revolution is to
have a revolution to kill to overthrow
to seize these factories and this was a
big argument uh and it also fed into the
idea of where does Free Speech end uh
are is it legal to be giving speeches
advocating for violence and revolution
is illegal Johann most you know who I
discuss in the book and in the
anarchistan book he published a book in
1800s about how to build dynamite and
how to build bombs and this is a big
Free Speech concern at the time because
now anyone in their own house can make a
bomb and kill lots of people and this is
something that was happening with
enormous frequency at the time and
people tend to think you know because we
have these kind of prejudices or we only
remember what's happening now but this
was a I mean World War II well excuse me
World War One got started with the
assassination of Arctic Franz Ferdinand
there were lots of people McKinley's
another one who I discussed in the book
his assassination there was lots of
violence happening uh very regularly and
with the creation of dynamite it kind of
exponentially became more dangerous and
threatening even now on Wall Street
there was a bomb that went off I think
in the 1920s and the shards of shrapnel
are still in the JP Morgan building I
believe
do you ever think if you were alive
during that time what you would be doing
you think of yourself as an anarchist
right would you be where would you be
would you be a socialist a communist
which parties would you attend uh
figuratively and the thing that was so
interesting back then is there was a
woman named Mabel Dodge Luhan uh and she
ended her days in Taos New Mexico she
found an artist colony and she had an
apartment on 9th Ave 9th Street and
Fifth Avenue in Manhattan uh a shadow
salon and everyone got together and
talked and you'd have Emma Goldman who's
an anarchist Margaret Sanger who
invented Planned Parenthood and
advocated for birth control and you'd
have the people from the wobblies the
the hardcore labor unions and everyone
kind of at Shell menkin didn't attend
but he was friends with them all so
there was this very weird
with the birth of modernism in art and
and in kind of modernist thinking there
was this idea of like all right like
this was the first time where you could
be intellectual as a class where there
really was this space for people who are
thinkers and they just sat around being
like all right like what are we gonna do
with ourselves uh you know and you have
it in modern art you had it in
literature you had it in politics
um so it was a very exciting time where
people were like all right like
everything is now on the table what are
we gonna do with this and they very much
were aware that this was a break with
you know the pre-industrial revolution
uh kind of farmer labor era do you see
do you think for you violence would be
compelling no first of all I'm just too
small
um but second I I just Dynamite
doesn't care about your size yeah but I
mean retribution does and I I think I I
don't know but to me violence is the
kind of thing where you think you're
running it but it's running you uh once
you you know cross that line you know
violence sings its own song so whenever
I hear even contemporary tabs or people
are advocating for you know violent
actions it's like when you start a fire
you're not like I'm just gonna burn down
this house you know it's it's and
there's many cases over and over of
people who are building bombs or trying
to assassinate someone or or things like
that and it ended up literally literally
literally blowing up in their own face
so and violence doesn't really work
necessarily because you know if you have
an assassination you're not
assassinating the presidency you know if
you take out you know a president
there's another president instantly
there so what have you accomplished
someone's husband Dad is gone you
replace them with someone who now is in
a position to crack back down and
retaliate with even more violence so
it's it the the calculus for me Isn't
there would I be advocating if we're
then who knows
um but I mean I don't know if I'd uh be
able to space to be I certainly wouldn't
have the space to be a podcaster or like
a media personality that wasn't really a
thing it to some extent it was in the
1920s with the Algonquin Roundtable and
all the people from The New Yorker
magazine
um but they were all drunks you know it
was very much
um uh a weird kind of situation to be a
thinker what would you think you'd do
work at a carnival you look good in
lipsticks so thank you
um I look at anything
um what would I I don't know I mean
you're not building robots I mean you
could have been a Tesla right okay I
didn't mean a car I meant the person
like I understand oh thank you for
explaining the way he comments to me at
all because you went in Einstein because
your name he was an immigrant so I
wouldn't work with the name again what
does that even mean no you would have
been a Tesla like figure there's already
a Tesla so you wouldn't literally be
Tesla that's why I said a Tesla oh ah
Tesla okay so all right I thank you for
the explanation see Mike Michael doesn't
only make funny things he also explains
them for you it wasn't funny man's plays
them it wasn't funny at all that I agree
with okay
okay so yes when when you achieve see
this is my Kanye didn't like you it's
this
all right I'm I'm downgrading it from a
nine down to an eight
and if you keep talking like this
uh a five is a real possibility all
right so uh vacuum is the kind of vacuum
that's created with violence is is
usually
um filled with like a with a harsh with
a harsher figure so so you don't think
violent revolution ultimately leads to a
positive Pro positive progress in the
short term well sometimes it does the
American Revolution I think was a
positive example and overthrowing the
Czar which was done peacefully uh was a
positive example but again uh when
violence happens people get scared and
they want the violence stopped
immediately and that's a call for
authoritarianism and you see it time and
time again and and they also want
retribution they were like bring this
back to normal uh and they don't really
worry about things like civil liberties
or things like that it's it's a very uh
uh and then it also creates this space
for Invasion from foreign sources or
demagogues you know like oh look they're
killing us in the streets now you got to
support me it's it's a very uh
deadly game obviously I remember
somebody told me
that uh I forget where it was but they
told me that from the very beginning was
obvious that communism is an evil system
that would or a system that leads to
evil
and uh to me at least that's not if I
had to put put myself in the beginning
of the 20th century at the end of the
19th century that's totally not obvious
they are
trying to elevate Humanity the the basic
worth of a human being of a hard-working
human being of the working class of the
people that are doing the work and the
striving and just uh really trying to
build up Society with their own hands
and she seems like a beautiful ideal uh
so I guess the question is
can you see yourself believing in that
in in the ideas of socialism and
communism yeah let's say if you were
living in Russia oh yeah easily so first
of all I I don't think anything is
obvious in politics uh it's not obvious
that you know uh humans have rights it's
not obvious that Liberty is better or
the Market's either either whether
you're for you know a welfare state or
you're for more free markets not that
those is obvious both of them involve an
enormous amount of thought and
background information so when someone
says something is obvious in politics
they really mean something is apparent
well it's not a parent on its face that
if we all get together and promote a
society based on equality and we all
chip in that it's gonna really be good
for everyone I mean that to me is the
promise of Communism
um and it was also very appealing to
many people because it was new
so the idea was all right we've tried it
these other ways there's all these
negative consequences you have all these
slums you have people getting you know
fired and then they have no recourse you
have women with 10 kids and they can't
feed their kids infant mortality you
don't have sanitation you don't have
food you know everyone's illiterate and
uneducated and then here's saying look
if we all chip in together everyone will
have clothes everyone have food everyone
will be educated everyone will do their
part it's going to be rough in the short
period that's a very compelling
case to be made for communism it's
really easy in many ways when something
hasn't been tried to make it sound
uh compelling because you just talk
about how great it's going to be and
then no one no one you know people are
always arguing about like Venezuela and
Sweden like oh we you know you want
Democratic socialism to be like Sweden
you don't want to be like Venezuela the
Venezuelans didn't vote for Venezuela
they voted for Sweden they ended up with
Venezuela so it's I think
and the thing with Communism especially
at that era it was very much a
correlated with uh people who are too
smart for their own good because they
had the idea that if we're just put in
charge instead of these like business
people or these heirs to Great Estates
if the people who are smart and get it
like us I don't mean you and me like the
people at the time who are advocating
for it once we're in charge since we're
good people and we want what's best for
everyone
um we're gonna make sure everyone's
taken care of and you know they always
talked about how much they cared about
the little guy and so I'm sure some of
them meant it a lot and they're like
look if the guy in charge is very much
concerned with the little guy he's not
going to slip between the cracks and
it's just going to be absolutely great
um and we don't have to worry about you
know uh you know the capitalist class
just basically exploiting people and
having these huge Estates while these
people can't even feed their own
families since we have a little bit of
momentum Can you steal me on the case
for socialism at that time and even
today
I don't know if it's
I don't know if there's a rhyme and uh
similarity to those to socialism as
implemented at that time and what could
possibly be implemented today but maybe
you can dance between the two the Steel
Man arguing for socialism is
if you have everything up to Private
Industry you do not have a guarantee
that someone won't fall between the
cracks and the other concern is in any
other context if someone is let's
suppose mentally ill right through no
fault of their own and they are or
someone's handicapped you know they
can't feed themselves or mentally
disabled or something like that
if you have everything up to charity
some if this you see this with like
endangered species right the species
that are cute it's easy to raise money
for them to protect them some weird kind
of frog somewhere that no one cares
about you can't raise money for it
there's people's interests are to what
they find interesting so if someone is
someone who's like not socially
appealing in some way whatever capacity
they're going to fall between the cracks
and they're screwed under socialism if
you have a government taking care of
everything no one is Left Behind you are
guaranteed that the lowest of the low
and the worst of the worst are still
going to make sure that they're not
starving the street or uh just left
behind so that is a big moral case to be
made for having the state running
everything in terms of economics it's a
lot harder but the argument there would
be it's why it's it's not fair a term
which in my view does not actually have
a good meaning but it's not fair that
because you were born a Rockefeller and
I was born in Poland that you never have
to worry about food for the rest of your
life whereas I have to worry about you
know paying for a doctor for my kid like
you just you won this Lottery when
you're born and now I have to be screwed
and have to respect all your property
why so
um that is another strong argument to be
made for socialism and the other
argument is if you have a media
apparatus that is operated under
profit-seeking principles it is going to
feed into people's worst
qualities most basic animal-like
qualities and sensationalist qualities
and will be used as a mechanism for
capitalist control whereas if the
government which represents all of this
all of us is running things then
everyone will have a right to have their
voice heard and won't be manipulated
that's the argument what about the
reaching towards the stateless version
sort of uh because you espouse the ideas
of anarchism it kind of has the same
conclusion which is reaching towards the
removal of the state to where we I guess
have
uh some distributed reallocation of
resources that are quote unquote fair
but the thing is the the Marxist vision
of the state withering away and uh
becoming anarchism it's really kind of
like um The Underpants Gnomes because
it's like tell me more well step one you
have Mark Tell Me Slowly
I'm sorry you have full communism the
state's running everything including
education step two question mark step
three anarchism so their idea was that
after enough time
the nature of man himself was going to
change changed and then the government
would be Superfluous because we would
all be uh equal and we would all
naturally or socially whatever term they
would use want to act the part that we
would need to do and in fact Reagan had
a great joke about this where there were
two where uh there were two comma Stars
I think in Moscow and one of them
they're walking around they're going is
this it uh is this have we done it have
we reached full communism the other goes
oh no it's going to get a hell of a lot
worse so you know that's kind of the
counter argument to that
do you think
culture Society can change the nature of
man no
so no matter you don't think this idea
that uh for example America has been
founded on that all men are created to
equal
that that idea can't permeate the
culture and in thereby change how we see
each other how we
think of the basic worth of a human
being and thereby change our nature it
doesn't change that's epigenetic I don't
think that that changes the nature of
man I think for example if I say someone
which I agree with that if someone is
innocent so proven guilty they're not
literally innocent they're regarded in a
legal context as innocent but that
person is or is not a murderer or thief
or so on and so forth so we can
legally and ethically regard everyone as
equal but as Thomas sull pointed out a
human being isn't even equal to himself
over the course of a day twins who are
genetic clones are not equal to one
another so it is a important thing
legally and it's a good yardstick but
it's not literally true but don't you
think that law becomes ethics so we
um
we that like idea of Justice starts to
like we start to internalize it that we
just
the way we behave the way we think about
the world no I I I think it's a complete
red herring because no one is no you're
a red herring okay see what I did there
um
because
someone is people are still going to
always prefer their family to strangers
or they're in group to our group so in
terms of you're going to have equality
that means it's going to not matter to
you whether someone is your mom or
someone is you know someone down the
street and I don't see how that will
ever become the case do you think it
would be possible if you were an
intellectual
uh like you are at the beginning of the
20th century would you be able to
predict the rest of the 20th century no
I I don't think at all I think there
were so many
um
out of nowhere turns that no one would
have seen their them coming for and as
an example
um Lenin seizing power and making the
Bolshevik Revolution a reality was
regarded as utopian and insane uh the
fact that he pulled it off is close to
miraculous and it was quite literally
unprecedented
um the fact that so that's a very big
one which aspect of it sorry to
interrupt which aspect was hard to
predict that a singular figure with just
some ideas would be able to take so much
power and and maintain that power and
remake that Society so drastically so
quickly despite such opposition also not
just a set of temporary protests by
Hooligans that lead to
um turmoil in the short term but then
stabilizes but literally changes the
entirety of the society yeah lutendorff
it was the German general he's like all
right we got to get this the Russians
out of world war one he's the one who's
like all right let's get this lunatic
Lenin who already tried and failed to
have a Revolution in Russia let's send
them back there and he's just gonna
cause problems to everybody and it's
gonna be great because it's gonna weaken
Russia and then our Eastern Front isn't
going to have to be a problem and then
to his surprise and everyone else is
including you know anarchists and
Communists worldwide uh they pulled off
this you know October Revolution and
then for a while it's like all right I
mean I mean I think my understanding is
even people at the time in St Petersburg
and in Moscow were like what does this
even mean right like no one took it
seriously and then very quickly you had
the checkout and and the secret police
and all these other kind of
implementations of the you know the
communist state and people like oh
they're not messing around but they're
like all right this is this is not going
to last for for long and you know the
USA the US and day we didn't even
recognize the Soviet Union's legitimacy
for a very long time there were no
diplomatic relations after certain point
it's like who's the if you don't
recognize Lenin and Stalin's government
who's the government of this of Russia
or the Soviet Union is it the Czar like
you have to recognize that it's just
they're not going anywhere so that was
something that was not I I think very
predictable the Great Depression in
retrospect there were certain things
that were predictable but it was not at
all the case that it needed to last as
long as it did in the states as FDR made
it do so there's all sorts of things I
mean if they uh um
fought Germany's re-militarization near
World War World War II could have been
prevented if you didn't have the Treaty
of Versailles would you have the
hyperinflation would you have Hitler
these are all I think Choose Your Own
Adventure moments where things could
have gone in other directions I don't
believe this kind of idea this is very
Marxist idea that like history is
inevitable and once you start with
certain premises the contradictions kind
of unfold I think it's ridiculous I feel
that there's power in the Santa Claus
outfit yeah I mean it's a fundamentally
communist idea right Santa Claus
arbitrary redistribution of wealth it's
not redistribution well at least I
decide who's good and bad only I only I
know this
and I mean I am somehow getting funding
from somewhere right no
okay listen there's I have so much to
teach you you have a word little Michael
Workshop yeah and how many people do you
think are employed in this Workshop
they're slaves yes I don't know how many
elves are in the workshop uh I think the
rest of you are gonna have to look into
it no anyway in the red colors and
everything is that the biggest holiday
of all time Christmas like just in terms
of
the intensity of the festivities no I
think Christmas is a very recent
phenomenon I think historically it was
not a big deal now I know historical has
not been but in terms of
how much it captivates how intense it is
I guess from a capitalist perspective
like how much is going on how visual it
is how intense it is I think it grabs a
whole population I think it's because
the idea of Christmas is probably the
one of the most powerful holiday ideas
uh Easter is probably up there is
there's obviously up there because you
have Christ resurrect Christ dying his
resurrection so that's kind of a big one
but but Christmas is the symbol of
Brotherhood and kindness and magnanimity
you know one of the things I despise
about our culture is this glory and
something I'm fighting very heavily with
this book or at least attempting to is
this glorification of cynicism
this kind of like oh you like this song
that's cute stupid
um whereas Christmas is the one time of
year where you could be happy and joyous
and kind and people don't get to roll
their eyes at you they get to stop being
too cool for school and they get to be
like you know I enjoy your friendship
your your my sister my brother my dad my
mom whatever and it's the you know I was
Iran's favorite holiday I adore it and
especially Christmas in New York and
it's just this idea of like even though
we're called and it's dark outside you
know it's still it's kind of like it's
still cozy and you and the next let's
hope the next year is because with with
Russians Santa comes on New Year's so
it's kind of like let's make this next
year an even better one so it's very
much the holiday of Hope and joy
and like love for family for friendship
and kindness and benevolence yeah and
like almost the whole that whole rat
race of uh chasing material possessions
and all that gets put on hold for beef
moment it just all goes quiet but it's
also about giving people material
possessions like here like I value you
this is something that brings you Joy
yeah yeah you write in the book which by
the way
people should go get by right now if you
support this podcast or if you support
the ridiculous office that Michaels wear
wears the more books you buy the more
outfits he is going to wear I've got two
my next two appearances in the show
assuming I don't burn this bridge I've
got some good ones this bridge
has been burning for a long time we've
been going across the road by Kent canoe
at this point next time we're going to
be swimming
um how the hell are you gonna swim
yeah that's true sink to the bottom get
dragged across by rope okay you write in
the book cynics like to lie and call
themselves realists hoping for positive
outcomes can thus be dismissed as being
naive or utopian can you elaborate on
this point just like you said right now
I mean
it seems like a
I don't know if it's a fundamental
characteristic of our society today or
just societies throughout history but
there is a cynicism you write in the
Soviet Union it was a really there's a
deep cynicism that was good at the end
yeah
um and but there is a cynicism today as
well at least in like public discourse
yes why does it happen and how can we
fight it
um I think it is easy
to be like everything sucks uh you know
I had my friend Lux um she was a a
vlogger and she was an author she had
this great line because you know we
worked in media and she's like if you're
at a party and someone starts talking
about a new app or website and you don't
want anything about it just say oh I was
on that for a while it sucked and that's
all you need to say I'm like look that's
a great line but I I think it is and
especially I'm sure you had to you
experienced this as well with your
family I certainly did with mine there
is this idea especially in Russian
culture but in American culture to some
extent as well where if you have Aspira
aspirations I remember there was this
show called Russian dolls it was
oh I just got it like the matrushka okay
I just got it that's the name okay the
show is called Russian dolls it was
about Brighton Beach which is the
Russian Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn
it was supposed to be their version of
Jersey Shore it was a lifetime and it
had no ratings and I remember the last
four episodes they had to burn them so
they just ran it through like 8 A.M to
10 am one day and there was this one
scene where the when the girls I forgot
her name probably Natalia and she'd been
in college
and she had been
wondering what you want to major in
right and I this story was so perfect
I'm sure I've told it before and she
took an aptitude test and she went with
her mom to get like mani pedis or
something and she goes mom you know I've
had like 80 Majors I didn't know what I
wanted to do and she goes I took this
after test it really made sense to me I
am gonna go to law school I want to be a
lawyer and it's something I enjoy and
the first thing out of her mom's mouth
is how you're gonna pay for it and the
girl and I really related because if you
didn't have this Russian upbringing you
watched it you would think her reaction
was completely insane she just lost it
just screaming she's like people pay for
law school all the time I'll figure out
a way why is your first reaction to look
for a problem why is your first response
to be like oh wait are you sure you've
thought this through I have been
struggling with one problem for years
what I wanted to do for a living and now
like as soon as I solve this one big
problem of identity your first reaction
is like let's find a new problem why is
that Europe instead of let's figure out
how we're gonna pay for it and that kind
of approach is so
uh deadly and it it gnaws at you and I
always I don't like giving people advice
because I'm who the hell am I and also
if I don't know the context of the
problem I'm not informed enough to give
advice but this is piece of advice that
I do for Comfort giving if you are
someone who has around you people who as
soon as you have any accomplishment or
any hope that their first reaction is to
be like well what about this you have to
get rid of them or sit them down maybe
give them a chance because that is
something that is such so demoralizing
and it drains you and it's like you know
the example I've used all the time all
the time all the time I say if you want
to be an author right you can go to any
bookstore and look at all the shitty
shitty books like the white pill and you
could say to yourself I could be this
shitty author you don't have to be
having right so people should buy your
book just to know which it doesn't take
much it really does not take much shitty
writing is all about
and boring yeah you could just pick a
random random period in history and just
write a bunch of crap about it yes and
put a pretty stamp on the cover and just
go it was pretty yeah yeah but I mean
like like for you right like not you
don't I don't mean you left batteries by
the Wolves the wolf Bots there's lots of
stand-up comedians who aren't Jerry
Seinfeld yeah right if you want to be a
podcaster you don't have to be Joe Rogan
you could be someone who's got a medium
audience and are enjoying it so like the
idea that like something has to be
you have to be a massive Superstar or
you're a failure is also ridiculous but
that's cynicism
I mean you can even be a failed comedian
like Dave Smith uh yeah I don't
um this is a generic name I came up with
as an example
um I think he has like a podcast of some
kind he said I like it yeah not very
funny I don't know why you would call
himself a comedian but uv's being ironic
um don't you think yeah so even even
then you could do something special I
remember what you did with me in the
movie theater what's that
I don't is oh you continue can you
explain the jokes because I can't no I'm
not explaining jokes I'm wearing
lipstick it's not enough
now I remember what you did to me in a
movie theater and you wore lipsticks
that night too not when I was done
people for sure will think this this
feels like a gay porn
like like a very long intro because
we're not wearing pants yes there's many
reasons why this feels like this and the
outfits and just everything about this
uh how would you know I my friend I have
stories I thought you know I thought I
don't have friends
they're all suspiciously named either
Lex or Lux or some variation like you
lack complete creativity
just like in the writing or locks yeah
it's it's like you you didn't even use
like a thesaurus for your book the same
words over and over and over uh the the
sad thing about the cynicism is like
I don't think it's just a Russian thing
I I think the people let me just because
I didn't finish what you were saying
earlier in America it's not just a
Russian thing in American culture
if you have like a sitcom or a musical
it's regarded as less legitimate than a
drama right like if something's got to
be about someone's struggling or
someone's suffering whereas this is like
a joyous happy story like maybe
something like Pixar right like sure
they have conflict and they're going for
something but it's overall the
background the universe is taking in is
very joyous and happy that is regarded
artistically as less legitimate than
something which is dark and and the
background is Despair and that very
subtly sends a very to me pernicious
message that the you know that what's
real is Despair and happiness is the
aberration and I think if you have that
as your mindset you're setting yourself
up for maybe not failure but certainly
not happiness
yeah but that that's in the the figures
the ideas that the culture elevates but
at the local personal life of parents
and teachers that still happens a lot in
Russia and here just my whole life
especially because I'm a weirdo
I've been kind of told to
um
basically be less weird
be uh
um
there's a kind of
sense and where there's a certain path
you're supposed to take in life
and every time you have a little bit of
success on those very specifically
defined paths you're pushed to do more
and more and more on those paths as
opposed to celebrating the full
complexity of the weirdo that each one
of us is and I certainly am and I just
teachers even friends
and certainly family
have constantly been
um very cynical about
um my aspirations my dreams and so on
um
I think that actually created a deeply
self-critical engine in my brain
that I think It ultimately was
productive
because it was also
um
balanced by just an internal maybe
through genetics thing I have of
optimism about the world of just seeing
the beauty in the world but it is weird
looking back how much the how much
people that love me were trying to uh
bring me down yeah so strange it's also
very hurtful for me because when I
graduated college it was important for
me to be self-made and not take money
from my family and I remember my grandma
this was a huge argument an ongoing
argument and one time she you know as we
were leaving as she was leaving my house
she slipped money in under the door and
I threw it out and it made me so angry
um or like one year for my birthday she
gave me I think like 500 which was a lot
of money you know when you're like 22 or
23 and I was so pissed because that
told me that they didn't believe that
I'd be able to feed myself or make it on
my own and I understand their their
mindset but it's like I'm not I wasn't
you know I never was never hungry like
maybe I couldn't I remember I'd have to
wait on the subway because I couldn't
afford a cab
um so but that was a sacrifice I had to
make you know I had to wait that half
hour so it was a huge source and remains
a source of enormous uh tension and
contention and I think also I'm sure
speaking to your upbringing in their
minds unless you're going into an office
you can't pay the rent it doesn't make
sense
um so but there's just like you said
forget the office forget all that no
matter what
there's always whatever you accomplish
in life you always do you're always uh
negative about your current position
you always come up with another problem
just like you said it's always a it's
like a self-generating problem box yeah
I remember I didn't speak to my dad for
a few years then I'm like let me give
this guy another chance and in that time
period Harvey picar the author of uh
subject of American Splendor of the
movie and author of the series comic
books he and I became friends and he was
writing a graphic novel about me
and when I met with my Dad I'm like oh
uh someone's writing a book about me and
he goes I know so and it was one of
those moments where I'm like wow you're
an asshole and not the kind of asshole I
am you're just like not a good person
and I don't know or really at this point
care what the motivation or if there was
no motivation with the visceral
emotional reasoning for that but that
kind of thing is something I
you know much later now in life have
absolutely no tolerance for well my in
my own private life I try to forgive and
love those people but it is uh there
have been a few in my life like this and
I think they are they are incredible
people if you allow yourself to see it
but they're flawed and so
I tried to forgive them that said it is
true that uh the people that are close
to you especially family have a
disproportionate psychological effect on
you so you have to be very careful
having them in your life too much like
one thing is to love them
and the other is to actually you know
allow yourself to flourish surround
yourself with people that help you
flourish and like you said the advice
there is is really powerful especially
early on to have people that believe in
you in whatever crazy Big Dreams you
have they pat you on the back and say
you got this kid and and so value here's
the other thing
if you try
and you don't make it to that Rogan
level it's okay
like I have several books that I've
written that are on my hard drive that
have not been published and there were a
lot of work and it was really
disappointing when they went out and no
Publishers were interested in maybe I'll
publish them maybe I won't point being
it's fine I tried it's like a romance
novel one is one is a a romance no does
that have a Santa a guy in a scent
outfit okay you know can you please stop
asking me to send you gay pornography
he's calling me up all hours of the
night I need more gay porn I need some
ones I only have zeros yeah uh Never
Enough no I never enough this one almost
got a book jail this was it would have
been it was 16 years ago it was a ladlit
novel
um what kind of Novel ladlet it's like
The Corned Beef what the corn B about a
boy so there was a little mini genre of
these books about young men trying to
struggle their way through it's a whole
little there's a whole little series
then Fight Club uh is adjacent to that
uh it's not literally ladle it
um I feel like you would write a great
Fight Club type novel no you know fight
club's much and Chuck Paul and it's my
understanding admitted this fight Club
is one of the few things where the movie
is better than the book
oh that's interesting
but but the movie's so iconic yeah for
sure but but still isn't there a deeply
like philosophical it's kind of like
David Foster Wallace novels isn't
doesn't it doesn't Fight Club capture
some moment in time that's very kind of
I was hanging with Kurt Metzger a couple
weeks ago comedian very failed name drop
yeah hey Kurt watch out and he was he
had this great story he was hanging with
Patricia Neal the late comedian name
drop with the great comics of all time
and
uh Patrice goes Kurt was talking about
how much she liked the book or the movie
Fight Club and Patrice is like that is
the whitest book on Earth he goes your
problem in life is you don't have enough
violence in your private life you need
someone to beat you up that's not a
problem for me
yeah it wasn't I mean but still it it is
a very white book but it it still
captures a kind of anger and it angst
and a certain subculture in society yes
that's really powerful that probably led
to
in some parts of the thing you uh wrote
about and then you write oh for sure I
mean it was this kind of like there's
that line in the movie where uh um
Edward Norton says I'm a 30 year old boy
this kind of question of what is it
sorry to be Matt Walsh but what does it
mean to be a man right what does
masculinity mean what are why are so
many men so at such a young age feeling
so lost uh this idea that like if I fill
my house with nice furniture that's
still not going to be fulfilling to
anyone who met what who's Matt Walsh is
um he's from the daily wire he just did
a documentary called what is a woman can
you explain I don't know who he is so
Matt Walsh is someone who works for the
daily wire yes and he just recently did
a documentary called what is a woman I
think it was called and he went out to
lots of people working in gender Theory
and uh well that's thing and he asked
them to Define he went to the Maasai in
Africa the tribe and to talk to people
about transgenderism non-binary which is
a word I know you hate and the
documentary was a
um surprisingly well done is that like a
passive aggressive compliment
surprisingly well done well because Matt
is very
um aggressive on Twitter uh sure we
follow each other and
there was a lot of opportunities in this
film for him to really be like and
instead to his credit he let the people
speak and it it's possible is edit a
certain way of course it was obviously
edited but when he's just asked them can
you just Define a woman for me and
playing dumb we're not playing dumb just
saying what's your opinion a lot of the
people he was speaking to were getting
extremely uh agitated so it worked in
that kind of context as well it was not
his usual Style
speaking of which do you ever regret
your behavior on Twitter
there were a couple of times but very
rarely
can you describe the big strategy before
we dive back into the October Revolution
uh my strategy do you have a strategy or
is it does it come from the heart or
does it come from the brain
it comes from I want to have fun
that's literally what it comes down to
it's like this is Girls Just Want to
Have Fun
are you drunk what is it what are you
what is in there
I'm very cheeky I'm I have the holiday
spirit even though it's not the holidays
oh that's eggnog Delirious I did not
sleep much last night I've been uh which
is I think the second time we talked or
the third time the second time I I
stayed up almost all night oh I know I
keep track of when you come and go yeah
so my door camera points at your garage
so I know when you're leaving or coming
home my camera points at your bedroom
from the inside but I shouldn't have
told you that now let me ask you this
because if something's been bothering me
yes there was a chair that you threw out
yep and it's broken and I was looking at
my camera and I'm like let me see when
he threw this out and then one time you
went to the garbage and you adjusted it
to make it stick out of the garbage even
more what were you doing there
uh was I oh
to make sure that people know there's a
chair in there is that really what you
did well like the garbage person so they
know it's the chair so they don't get
like I I always think I don't want them
to get like hurt or whatever oh okay
like they open the thing it's like uh
chair I don't know I don't know what I
was thinking okay it was really odd I
didn't know how to get rid of a chair it
was broken it was like cracked and I
didn't it was uh it was a Twitter for me
I my point is to have fun it's also fun
to kind of smack down people who I
regard as Bad actors
um and also kind of to promote news that
I find interesting that maybe isn't as
prominently part of the culture as it
might otherwise be do you think
sometimes you draw too broadly the
category of people that are Bad actors
and then some thereby
sort of adding to the
the mockery and the cynicism in the
world I don't think mockery and cynicism
are at all synonymous I think cynicism
means everyone sucks I don't think
everyone sucks I think uh it is
undeniable that a lot of people suck
what if I told you most people don't
suck
could you could you
could you steal me in the case that most
people sure I can do it in a cynical way
honestly it's quite a cynical way but I
think most people are neither here nor
there
uh most people just kind of go with the
flow
um they're amiable human beings are
social creatures they want to get along
uh they don't want to cause problems
they don't have the capacity to be the
target of a problem so most people I
mean if people if most people sucked
then going anywhere would be
excruciating ordeal right like literally
and like the airport's annoying but if
most people sucked it would really be
annoying you know go in the supermarket
would be really annoying so I don't
think most people suck but I do think
that in public discourse there are lots
of people who are dishonest about their
agenda for example if I'm you know I
could be a
someone who has promoting a certain
ideology but I'm in the payroll of a
candidate or you know my Think Tank
needs this to happen or I'm being paid
for some something like that so that
sort of thing I think happens all the
time there's the line I have in the book
Upton Sinclair uh I forgot how he he
worked exactly but it's very hard to
convince someone of something if his
payroll depends on him not being
convinced of it right so I think things
like that are uh the thing I'm really
excited about with what elon's doing
with Twitter and I I'm just ecstatic
about this is to have the context now so
you'll have a politician making a claim
and they're going to award it in certain
ways like my favorite example is when
people are like if you look at the years
2002 to 2020 terrorism in America it's
like did anything happen in 2001 is
there a reason you just coincidentally
started in 2002 like things like that so
when people are manipulating things to
force an outcome that they want and to
promote an idea that they want
disingenuously to have that underneath
that in Twitter now where the audience
provides context I think is something
extremely useful and it's a great way to
nip propaganda in the bud and propaganda
pervades the entire political spectrum
of course
the interesting thing about Twitter is
also the discussion about free speech
and so on I think it's interesting to
discuss free speech and the freedom of
the press from the context of the Soviet
Union sure let's return to the October
Revolution at London
what was the October Revolution what uh
who was Lenin what's some interesting
aspects of this this human being and
also this moment in history that stand
out to you that are important to
understand I think the
interesting thing about Lenin is he was
a zealot and he was a Visionary and he
really kind of meant it and I'm skipping
ahead a little bit but Lennon also was
someone who was strategic so at a
certain point when they were trying to
advance communism throughout the Soviet
Union and the costs outweighing the
benefits he did a strategic Retreat he
that did the New Economic Policy you had
a rise of kind of these small
capitalists coming back you could hire
people again and for the hardcore people
in the Soviet Union hardcore Communists
this was a huge betrayal it's a step
back he didn't do it because he was some
kind of crypto capitalist he did it
because he's like all right we know
where we got to get to but we have to go
at a certain pace and we have to adjust
as we go along so to have someone who is
that much of an ideologue and that much
of a Visionary but still to have any
element of pragmatism to him is I think
a very rare uh uh combination and that
pragmatism do you think that's
ultimately where things go wrong sort of
uh
that's where you sacrifice the ideas
pragmatism is in this case was good
because by taking a step back you know
he kind of gave himself some breathing
room to allow the revolution to continue
to win the civil war there was a big
moment where Germany if it's it's just
there's lots of like little funny
anecdotes that I learned while
researching this book so you know they
were uh Germany and Russia they were
negotiating uh still a ceasefire because
they wanted Germany wanted to rush out
of the war and basically Germany was
like all right you will let you leave
but you have to sign this treaty and
basically hand over all this land that
we're currently occupying it was like
just parts of Ukraine parts of Poland
and Lenin tells Trotsky to stall he's
just just run the clock because he was
of the belief that now that they've
taken power in Russia you're going to
have a worldwide workers Revolution so
just like just just stall them and he
stall he stalled at a certain point
Germany's like all right you're signing
this tomorrow or we're invading and
Trotsky basically said yeah so so we're
leaving the war but we're not signing
anything and the Germans are like what
it's like yeah well that's what we're
doing so hey
um and basically it eventually he had to
sign the treaty and Seed huge paths to
land and a lot of money and this was a
very uh precarious moment for him to
maintain control of Russia and people
were telling him like you've lost huge
amounts of territory you know you you've
blown it you should be in jail and he's
like watch your mouth because if you
look for the future it'll be clear which
one of us is more likely to be the one
ending up in jail and he was absolutely
right
uh this was Trotsky or Lennon this is
Lenin saying this to Carl radic uh so
who are these figures here who's Trotsky
who's Lenin who's Stalin what are some
interesting aspects of all of this would
it sort of just to linger on it the
personalities the ideas that were
important well Trotsky came late to
bolshevism he was really the brains in
many ways of the October Revolution he
was an amazing strategist he never
forgot that he was in amazing strategist
had a very high opinion of himself and
by the way the October Revolution 1917
that's like a key moment
um
of course the the Russian Revolution
lasted a long time but this was a key
moment of uh what a phase shift towards
success
of the Bolsheviks well that was the
moment that was like all right we are
the government now and now we have to
make it's a you know like Thomas
Jefferson said I think it was Thomas
Jefferson or no it's Ben Franklin uh a
republic if you can keep it it's like
all right we've made our own kind of
government if we can keep it because
that was the big question you had an
international blockade you had the white
armies the tsars forces who want to
restore zaraism or at least the the
parliament from uh right before Landon
took over so this was a big kind of no
one's was you know in some ways it was
like the 2016 election it's like all
right we vote in Trump what's this going
to look like like no one no one had any
idea of what a trump presidency was
going to look like all we knew was this
guy's on Twitter running his mouth he's
insulting people and he's had all these
views somewhere over here some over
there and the funny thing is the
Russians hacked both elections
see that's true it was Putin in the
gremlin so Trotsky was you know Lenin's
right-hand man
um and he was you know enormous and to
this day a he remains this kind of
figure who is
supposedly a less authoritarian
anti-stalinist version of Communism that
people can endorse and Stalin of course
was Lenin's successor at first there was
a triumvirate running Russia as Lenin
was recuperating from Strokes then very
quickly not very quickly but gradually
and then suddenly Stalin became an
absolute dictator and he had a series of
uh of purges and so and so forth which
solidified his control over the country
and of course for Stalin Trotsky later
but throughout as you write seemed to
almost take on a supernatural character
wherein everything that went wrong in
the USSR was due not just to his views
but to his direct orders from abroad and
uh of course George Orwell brilliantly
and probably my favorite book of his
which is animal farm and also in 1984.
portrayed Trotsky as a a snowball in
Animal Farm and Emmanuel Goldstein in
1984 is this embodiment of this evil
that will always have to be fighting and
you need that in order to hold
on to power you always have to have that
enemy right so that I mean that's
something I talk about uh in in the
white pill as well when things start
going wrong they always have to have
scapegoats right and there's this
Russian dot you know what the Russians
like to do is you can't say things out
loud but if you make jokes you can say
unspeakable truths and there's this one
anecdote where there's a Russian leader
and things are going bad and he looks in
his drawer and there were two letters
from his predecessor and he opens the
first letter in a panic and the letter
says you know for advice and the letter
says blame everything on me so he goes
out there and he's like oh my
predecessor sucked he was terrible blah
blah it's his fault and everyone's like
okay and then there's a Calamity again
and he's like a crap so it goes back at
his desk and he reads the second one and
it says sit down and write two letters
so when things start going wrong as they
constantly did throughout the history of
the Soviet Union uh or any you know
totalitarian authoritarian country it's
someone has to be the blame since we
know that our idea theology is true and
scientifically true if it's not working
in reality given the Perfection of the
ideology someone must be intentionally
undermining it and causing the
disconnect between thought and reality
and in the Soviet Union there were there
was a cool locks at one point then it
was the Wreckers uh the doctors it was
just different the cap there was always
someone and Trotsky uh was called a
fascist and was accused of plotting with
Hitler and all this other stuff and you
also write the problem with Communism is
that eventually you run out of possible
Escape boat Escape boats Escape boats
you run out of boats
who's going to carry them
uh eventually you run out of possible
skate because
uh it's it's my second language this
English thing
I'm a failed podcaster I'm a failure uh
eventually you run out of puzzle Escape
goats for failure at which point
acknowledging or even noticing that
something was wrong itself becomes a
form of treason yeah so I saw that in
North Korea right wherever you went in
North Korea something was wrong so if
you have four buttons for the elevator
one would be mismatched every wall had a
crack every floor had a stain uh the
bathroom would be rusted through when
you want to flush the urinal but if you
are someone who points this out you're a
troublemaker and you're oh you're crit
oh you're saying something's wrong
you're criticizing the operation you
create you're first of all you're you're
threatening the person who's in charge
because now they're incompetent and now
that's a big red flag for them but
second if you're just going around
saying this is wrong this is wrong this
is wrong even if it's objectively true
your troublemaker and your counter
revolutionary so at a certain point
everyone just has to put on blinders and
pretend that everything is fine one
example I use in the book an extreme
example was there was a photography
professor and he pointed out to his
class and he was an older man that
before the Revolution the quality of
photographic paper was better and he was
I think executed uh for this heresy so
yeah you have to pretend there was I
just I'm reading a book right now about
the Chinese
um Cultural Revolution and there was a
an academic I I forget his name Yushi I
think and he points out that in these
countries
not only do you not have freedom of
speech you don't have freedom of Silence
you can't just sit there quietly you
have to say how great things are and how
much you're enjoying and how wonderful
they are instead of just keeping quiet
because if you keep quiet that's
suspicious
yeah those um
they're always singing those songs about
how happy they are and how great
everything is and if everyone else is
singing who are you to sing not sing
yeah those uh pictures especially when
uh you know when it's Stalin giving
speeches and everyone's applauding any
dictator and you do you you don't want
to be the the first person that stops
applauding Stalin had to have a button
is my understanding at a certain point
to tell people stop applauding because
they're like you said if you're the
first one to stop clapping people are
going to notice and why'd you stop
clapping you don't like Stalin
but just imagine being one of those
people clapping but that's the thing
they they always had a sword over their
head and they had but they all had a lot
of blood in their hands too it's it's
it's it's a it's a very very precarious
life
but there's also I mean 1984 does a good
job of this
um what is that like two minutes of hate
or something like this you like lose
yourself in the in the in the hysteria
of it in the history so there's some
level of which
at first it's uh you're sacrificing your
basic individualistic ability to think
but then you get lost in this kind of
wave of emotion and you give into it you
allow yourself it's like a mix of fear
and then anger and then you direct that
anger towards like snowball or Trotsky
or whoever the and like and what is that
and you're also losing yourself in the
crowd yeah you're losing you're like
it's not just I'm angry everyone I know
we're all Angry together so you really
are becoming a part of something bigger
than yourself and having this kind of
communal very Primal emotional
experience
it's like the opposite of thanks of
Christmas right Christmas we're all
together everyone's sharing their Joy
everyone's sharing their love this is
the opposite literally the opposite like
everyone's together sharing their hate
and anger and rage but you're all kind
of having a mind meld
but I wonder what it's like to be an
independent thinker in those in those
moments like allow yourself to think
well we we know because there were a lot
of them and they were all punished
enormously so they can be noticed you
can notice them oh yeah you even noticed
it in America America is a free country
but when people start asking too many
questions it's like where are you going
with this you know like if you're in an
office even in a corporate setting uh
you're you're a troublemaker you're just
you know you're making problems for
everyone why can't you be normal why
can't you be just like everybody else so
people do not like having to be made to
think and they certainly despise having
to be made to justify themselves
um because that's a threat to their
status into their power and this applies
in totalitarianism applies to you know
Dunder Mifflin
I still can't believe you're wearing
lipstick I'm not
uh goes to show you can pull lipstick on
a pig
it's like a snowball
I think you've just been on a bender
that's what I think it's been rough it's
been rough it's been rough
I I feel kind of I feel like I can be
myself in this outfit like I honestly
feel like I could just go around in this
outfit and um
just be weird
because everyone will accept you if
you're wearing a Santa outfit like
you can say anything in a Santa outfit
right have you seen Bad Santa yeah
exactly you can't say anything my fuck
stick
how does Stalin come to power if we
return back to
those early days post the October
Revolution with Lennon and Trotsky
and Stalin how did he come to power so
what Stalin did very cleverly Stalin was
you know he worked the system he was you
know but he was very much in the
background and what he did better than
Trotsky is he was much more politician
he was a gladhander he made friends
within the party he made people feel
respect and appreciated uh and Len
entrusted him uh when after Lenin's
stroke Stalin was basically the one who
was keeping track of him Lenin asked
Stalin at one point for to kill him
because after The Strokes using
capacitated style and talked him out of
it but at the same time Lenin was like
if I need someone killed like this is
who I need to talk to you know Stalin if
you look up photos of him when he was
young he was a stud he was a gangster
he's a bank robber uh and
you know he basically worked the system
and you had the trotskyites on one hand
who were much more to the left Stalin's
big
I would guess I would call it a heresy
was he put forth the idea of socialism
in one country whereas like we're just
going to make it work here in what
became the Soviet Union the Trotsky idea
and this is really kind of the Marxist
idea is that the workers revolution has
to be worldwide uh this is just a
worldwide kind of new era of humanity
where Stalin's like no no we're just
gonna make it here and then later uh
behind what became the Iron Curtain but
this was sure this was an ideological
division between the two but what
happens in totalitarian countries it
happens in any kind of like you know
when you have intermingling of like
religion and government things that are
like ideological ideological disputes
like the Aryan heresy the Aaron Harrison
Christianity is that Christ is
subordinate to God the father right
whereas the Contemporary Orthodox
version it's three Gods one God and
three person excuse me so they're all
co-equal aspects of God in heaven but
that was an excuse to be like you guys
are evil you're on the inside the devil
we're going to kill you so these little
disputes about ideas are often a
convenient cover for people to have a
power struggle
in the guise of being like it's not that
I'm about wanting to be more powerful
I'm just on the side of Truth and you're
speaking lies and that's dangerous to
the revolution or to the true Faith so
he squeezed truck but the thing is
Trotsky had the seeds of his own defeat
because pertrotsky the party is always
right you cannot be right against the
party right so if you have this kind of
party structure and the party is saying
you're wrong as an individual you are
wrong because the collective is what
makes decisions the collective the
workers are who have the knowledge and
and the information and it is important
for you to kind of subordinate your
selfishness your individualism to this
greater good so he
kind of set himself up in many ways
is it clear to you why Trotsky Lost That
Power struggle so you just explained
that he sets himself up but you can see
how different ideologies can be used to
uh to achieve different ends is there
another alternative possible trajectory
where Trotsky could have been the the
head of the Soviet Union uh it would be
very hard because he was Jewish so when
they were seizing power Trotsky
explicitly said I can't be in charge I'm
Jewish so the Soviet Union remained
extremely anti-semitic uh one of the
reasons so many Jews became Communists
in the Soviet Union because the promise
was once the Communists took over we're
not going to have pilgrims anymore
programs was you had these Jewish
ghettos and under the permission or
encouragement of the Czar just gangs of
people go through killing raping robbing
stealing riding for days and just it was
just a clean Massacre and the idea is
like under communism everyone's going to
be equal we're not going to have this
anymore they still had it but to a
lesser extent but uh
since Trotsky was Jewish his real name
is Lev bronstein you can't it was almost
impossible to have a scenario where he
was going to be in charge and Stalin fed
into that to some extent also this kind
of idea of Jewish internationalism it's
like okay he doesn't really have loyalty
to Russia and many of the people who
were Jewish who were high up in Stalin's
um
uh government Administration they very
much had to prove their loyalty uh to
Communism as opposed to Judaism
throughout the 20th century what was the
relationship between communism
and um Jews in the Soviet Union
what in terms of anti-Semitism the ups
and downs of anti-Semitism it seems like
it lessened it was lesser and greater in
different parts of the 20th century well
it's it's the kind of thing where
um if something was bad it's there's
this Russian rhyme uh you could like
yesterday
like if there's if there's no water in
the sink who drank it all the Jews
um so if something goes wrong there's
there's just a convenient historical
scapegoat it's the Jew's fault so this
is something that's towards the end of
his life very much and this was after
World War II Stalin was getting ready
for another kind of series of programs
there all these Jews were getting kicked
out of their jobs uh Jewish doctors were
getting sent to the Far East instead of
being in cities uh the newspaper started
talking about uh Cosmopolitan rootless
cosmopolitans which was a term the Nazis
also used to kind of uh regard Jews as
others or as aliens and this was going
to be and and they were very clever
about it uh in Pravda they would and I
talk about this and then the white pill
improved that there were articles edit
the uh letters to the editor they were
like you know things are getting so
anti-semitic we really should round up
all the Jews and send them elsewhere for
their own safety so they were kind of
setting the the ground rules or the or
the basis to have this sort of uh
program come back but uh spoiler alert
um Stalin dies and immediately
um all this gets reversed and the new
Administration
um
rehabilitates the doctors who are
accused of trying to hurt him and all
this other sort of thing
what is it about the scapegoats in
society are we always going to be
looking for scapegoats what do you learn
from Human Nature that this seems to
keep happening I think because there's a
book called The nurture assumption
and I discussed this in the new right
and what the author learned
is that humans Define themselves by
opposition
so if you have a group of people and
it's kids and adults the kids will see
themselves as kids because we're as
opposed to adults if the adults leave
the kids see themselves as boys and
girls because I'm not a girl I'm a boy
I'm not a boy I'm a girl so they divide
so this idea which is very Lefty idea
that human beings naturally all get
along is not accurate and the best
example of this is look after 9 11. look
where there's a war nothing unites a
popular it's not like when times are
thriving that everyone's all working
together when things are bad and there's
an enemy you know it's it's the Japanese
of Pearl Harbor it's Al Qaeda that's
when everyone really comes together
because now we have someone to be
against so there will always be
someone has to be the out group and we
have to be the end group as opposed to
them
but there's a viciousness to the actions
you take to the uh towards the owl group
that that varies throughout his yes some
like the degree of viciousness can cross
the line towards like atrocities towards
genocide right and that's that's the
question of in
why does this sometimes do that why does
it sometimes cross into genocide I
understand it's a useful thing to have
the other to blame in this world
especially when times are rough but why
does that sometimes
lead to a sort of action that says I'm
going to murder well I'm going to
torture together the question really is
why sometimes it doesn't right and one
of the things I learned when I was doing
the new right is a lot of the uh Nazis
using that term loosely speaking
neo-nazis they make the point they're
like oh when the Holocaust happened it
really wasn't that big of a deal and
that only became a big deal in the
decades later and this just shows the
power of Jewish influence and I'm like
this to me is a great thing it's a great
thing that we sat down
pretty recently historically and we're
like wait a minute guys when we have a
war or we have Conquest you don't have
to just start killing everyone like this
is something that's bad and wrong and
and certainly in the last 60 years 70
years this is something that people have
come to take for granted but that wasn't
the case before it would always be or
not always but often if you conquer you
just go wild and just start slaughtering
massive people
um it's um who's the guy from um Harvard
um and he Stephen pink Steven Pinker I'm
sorry I forgot his name so he just talks
about like you know we know this is one
of the reasons also why there was so
much skepticism when the Holocaust
started because this was regarded as
something that was barbaric this is from
the Middle Ages from the Biblical times
we don't do this anymore we're civilized
now so genocide is
historically the norm I think it's also
harder to pull it off emotionally when
you have the visuals and when you have
the audio and when you have the voices
of the people being slaughtered we don't
know you know if this was 2000 years ago
and people you know in the Bible they go
kill this group go kill that group we
don't have their names we don't have the
visuals we have anything but when you
see someone being like you know they're
uh there's a book about I think the
Rwandan Genocide and the title is we
regret to inform you that tomorrow we
will be executed with all of our
families like a telegram and like when
you get a telegram like this it's very
different than reading some history book
about you know the Assyrians kill the
Phoenicians it's like I don't know who
this is I don't know who that is right
so I think this is something that has
changed uh very recently there was this
kind of interesting moment just that
speaks to the way technology has
liberated people from violence
um kristallnacht which was a moment in
uh the lead up to the Holocaust were
basically you know with Hitler's
blessing you had a nationwide burning of
Jewish businesses synagogues burnt down
and Kaiser Wilhelm uh you know the
Kaiser he said for the first time my
life I'm embarrassed to be a German but
that was the moment where worldwide even
plenty of people who did not think very
highly of Jewish people were like
this is
the rap this is a complete nightmare but
200 years ago 100 years ago maybe not
literally a crystal knocked but there's
an out group and we hate them and we're
gonna kill them and it's fine and you
think it's even more difficult now with
the internet yeah that kind of thing
yeah I'm not now more difficult this
mean doesn't happen or it can't happen
I'm not saying that at all but I'm
saying
the we know a lot about what's going on
in North Korea you know probably the
most secretive country on Earth uh
there's a lot of atrocities in Eritrea
uh which is kind of known so I think it
also it's also
like if you think about it if you're how
many years ago 300 years ago you only
know the people in your village and
they're all probably going to look like
you so on and so forth whereas now if
I'm on social media and there's someone
from any country and maybe their picture
looks a little different they use the
same anime picture as somebody else but
they're putting forth their ideas
you do see the humanity in them and you
do see a sense of familiarity and a
familial bond with them and when you
hear about these things you know when I
again like I did when I did dear reader
no one
and I was on Al-Qaeda and I was on Alex
Jones no one pushed back about like oh
the North Koreans they were all like
this is horrible if I had a magic wand
I'd give them food I wouldn't have them
live in fear uh and this is something
that I don't think was the case a couple
hundred years ago that said uh I'd love
to get your thoughts about what's going
on in Iran the protests it seems like
the the regime there is able to uh crack
down with violence my thoughts about
Iran let me just there's something else
about Iran which thinks interesting this
whole idea of careful what you wish for
because people have this site and
something I kind of one of the reasons I
have the white pill is Americans really
are very naive about the nature of evil
right they really think that a dictator
has a weird mustache and he's banging
the table and he's you know like a crazy
person and it's often not the case but
they also think if something is bad
therefore the alternative is going to be
better
um so you had the Shah of Iran and he
was kind of authoritarian and no he's
not a good guy so in 1979 there are a
lot of people like this guy's a horrible
he's oppressed in the Iranian people
let's get him the F out of there he's so
bad that whatever comes after it is has
to be an improvement and it's like no
that's if you think I mean this drives
me crazy when conservatives are like you
know Joe Biden's the worst president
we've ever had like this is destroying
America I'm like you have no idea
how bad things can get the fact that you
are in a position to complain means
we've got a ways to go yeah every time
you say that Donald Trump or Joe Biden
is the worst president ever that that
warms my heart because the yo because
you're allowed to say that yes yeah
it's like I just let it it's like music
because you're you're allowed to be
pretty in response to a president's
tweet you couldn't write that yeah yeah
and it still lives there and it's and
nobody uh arrests you yeah
which is a rare thing in human history
yes and still rare thing in the world I
mean what it does seem that Iran the
current regime is able to crack down on
communication channels it's still
it's surprising to me how much power
government can have like they could use
violence to control the population right
and nobody's gonna do anything about it
well the rest of the world just watches
but here's the thing right because if
the rest of the world starts doing too
much then they have a justification to
crack down even more this regime this
protests are not legitimate these are
this happened constantly Soviet Union
these are foreign provocateurs uh this
is in you know meddling in our country
uh uh curfew lockdown ID you know
mandatory searches everyone's a spy so
that narrative is a very convenient one
for people who are authoritarian
um I know a lot of people who are
Persian as I'm sure you do as well uh
very hard-working very bright great
people
um and you know all you could do is hope
for a peaceful uh liberalization of
here's that people don't realize how
liberal Iran used to be Andy Warhol Andy
Warhol used to be friends with the Shah
and if you read his Diaries He talks
about how he knew things weren't going
well for the Shah because they had less
caviar at the table but like this is he
was a really kind of know there's
there's I think a poor understanding in
America and I'm not sure why of what
these liberal Muslim countries are like
um I gave a talk in Bodrum and turkey
which is like a resort town in turkey
and I had thought previous to that or I
had suspected if push comes to shove and
they have to choose people in Turkey
between the west and like Al Qaeda not
Al Qaeda but like you know hardcore
Islam they're going to choose hardcore
Islam you go there and you're like oh
this is like Los Angeles like these
people are so liberal so and they are
the first to be killed they're the first
targets so that people like that in Iran
are who my thoughts are and with the I
gotta tell you like nothing makes me
more of a feminist than seeing the women
in countries like this fight for the
right to education the right to dress as
they please maybe we don't need them
driving but you know that's okay
there he is with that characteristic
brilliant humor
that you're so loved for and should
probably be banned for on Twitter I'm
doing my best every time you tweet I
just report report
you don't have a like a script
exactly well actually funny enough I do
um but I don't I don't abuse my power
I wear the ring like Frodo
and I respect the power but you look
like Gollum
that's not what your mom said last night
she said you're hung like Gollum
I'm not going down that road with you
I'm not holding hands one another time I
learned my fool me once okay
I my my close childhood friend is from
Iran oh wow okay and
um
uh I talk to him a lot
I I wanted to go to Iran but it's so far
away
I can see it from my house my friend
um I would love to take that trip even
now
it's I just uh culturally so all the
different little pockets of local
cultures that make up Iran I just heard
so many amazing things yeah my friend
Paul went there he had an amazing time
he just absolutely loved it he thought
the people were awesome uh it was so
interesting uh very developed uh just
like Tehran is I mean this is the
history in Tehran is insane yeah I would
I would I would really love to
um to visit now we've returned back I
don't know how we ended up in Iran
but let us let us stroll back to uh to
Stalin taking power what role did the
suppression of speech
the censorship the suppression of the
the freedom of the press have in um
Stalin taking hold taking power in Lenin
and Trotsky and Stalin having power well
it was a very useful mechanism to direct
public opinion and inform public
perspectives and everything so first of
all there was a lot of news about how
um great things were you have a bumper
crop here you know grain's never been
better you have there's this great
there's another anecdote where president
kalinian is talking about how
um
on Karl Marx Street in Clarke there's
all sorts of new skyscrapers being built
and it's just absolutely amazing and
some of the audience gets up and goes
comrade I work on Carmike Street I walk
there every day there's none of these
skyscrapers that goes see that's your
problem you're trusting your eyes
instead of reading something and
learning what's in the papers so there
was this kind of Disconnect between you
know uh uh I I forgot you probably know
the joke like proud
means truth but there's no truth to be
had in Prophet is that kind of Russian
line the point is it very much
and the other thing this is you know my
mom wasn't particularly politically
motivated but she talked about how you
didn't have to be smart to realize how
dishonest it was because one day someone
is the great hero of the Soviet people
and the next week he's been a traitor
and a class enemy and the worst and then
sometimes they reverted and it's like
okay like they couldn't even keep their
their story straight and in fact at a
certain point when they you know
Gorbachev liberalized they had to cancel
tests because the history books had to
be Rewritten so quickly
um so and the thing that also with these
newspapers is there was a lot of it was
very monotonous
because you know you had the same
message over and over uh a lot of these
papers were about kind of speaking to
the lowest common denominator Stalin's
great everything's great overseas bad so
it it uh very much was about not
informing but creating uh a certain
perspective in the public at large and
also it you you were educated as a
citizen on what you're supposed to think
and say so you have a lot of this was
this kind of uh
private truths public lies situation so
you could read the paper and at your at
your factory you could be like oh my God
this this guy Carl radax great he's like
oh my God yeah he's amazing you you knew
what to talk about and you knew how to
um look at it as well and then when you
get home you could just kind of be more
honest with family but the question is
to which degree does this propaganda and
this ideology infiltrate your actual
thinking
um you get you give examples as like
scientists in infiltrated science oh
yeah so basically you know lucenko is
the textbook example of senkoism in
biology so because Marxism is
materialist uh they didn't like the idea
that genes pass on
um you know from one generation to the
next so lysenkoism kind of was a
rejection of um Mendel and and that kind
of genetics and if you reject genes
you're really going in a bad Direction
in terms of biology the Soviet Union's
biological biological program became an
international laughingstock at one point
lucenko claimed he crossed the tomato in
a potato
um you had things where they said they
uh had nuclear which wait we have fish
in but they said they invented Fusion or
hard or heavy water or hard water or it
was point being
in cultures like this your
way to achieve uh status wasn't
necessarily about your accomplishments
but about your loyalty to Orthodoxy so
if you were saying things that got to a
result that was congruent with the
broader ideology as a whole that was
much better as a means of furthering
yourself in the Arts or in the
scientists in The Sciences than if you
had something that was Innovative
because if you're Innovative it's like
well how do I fit this in with the
broader ruling ideology the problem
totalitarianism one of the many problems
is everything literally everything has
to be perceived through the lens of
ideology so and that is you know there
were
um scientists who were arrested or at
least fired because of their theories
about Sunspot developments because it
was regarded as unmarxist uh there was
just there was a there was a
an epidemic and all these horses got
sick and because the vaccine didn't work
on the horses the bacteriologists were
arrested because they were regardless
Wreckers it's like we gave you a job you
didn't do it you're undermining the
social estate so it's kind of a
backwards series of incentives
um and it's designed to maintain at all
costs the ruling ideological
superstructure but you draw a small
distinction between the ideology and the
ideological superstructure and the
propaganda aren't those kind of
intermixed together well the ideological
is like in the sciences and what's true
in genetics or what's true in astronomy
that doesn't really percolate out to the
masses right so the the problem does not
is maybe covering this scientist's grade
or these discoveries are great but it's
not necessarily the same as day-to-day
or glorifying political leaders but uh
Providence and manifestation of the idea
that truth can be conjured up yes it can
be constructed and it could be altered
quickly and then
I just I wonder so 1984 caricatures that
I wanted to a degree
it really could control the way you
think
that like how many people it affected I
can give you an example a very easy one
so again with with regarding North Korea
Kim uh the great leader Kimmel sung who
was the founder of North Korea had a
tumor on the back of his neck and it was
too close to the skull the sky spinal
column so they couldn't operate on it
and throughout his life it got bigger
and bigger and I got mixed messages in
my research about whether North Koreans
knew about it because there was
photographed him from this angle
and I met a refugee
um and I asked him like did you know
that he had this tumor she goes yeah
yeah when people played him in the
movies they would you know you'd make up
there and she goes uh it was an old war
injury and I go why would a war injury
get bigger throughout your life and she
just stood there
and she was like holy but she never
questioned it but it was the kind of
thing where they put the idea in her
head and since there's no reason to
question it she just kind of went with
it her entire life until I talked to her
Audrey has a name
hi Audrey hi Audrey I wonder what
percent of the population is like that
here's the thing
if there is a cost to me questioning
lucenko as a great scientist and there's
no benefit why wouldn't I just go with
what's going to keep me my family safe
but I also mean just the psychological
there might be a very local
psychological cost so not a cost you're
going to jail but it costs like
you're going to kind of ruin the
conversation by bringing it up kind of
like yeah I don't I'm just trying to
it's like Debbie Downer right yeah but
there's also the the whole metaphor of
like there's two fish in the river one
says man the water is really great today
and the other one goes what's water yeah
like a friend of mine's uh um Adriana
her mom came to the west and they went
to supermarket and then mom's just in
front of all the Fanta this this so just
crying actually what's going on she goes
they told us we had more food than you
and when something is you can it's you
can underthink this story this guy's
enemy of the people he was the hero he
just offended someone this is bullshit
it's almost impossible psychologically
to think I'm living in The Truman Show
and that everything in the media is not
just wrong but a carefully constructed
narrative and a lie like what they're
never gonna tell the truth and how you
you know like what like you and even if
that even if you do understand that how
would you even read between the lines to
deduce what the truth is yeah it must
have been a strange experience there's
stories of soldiers the the Red Army
soldiers throughout World War II as they
go to different countries even Romania
but in Europe to just to to understand
that people live much better
than they did then the soldiers did back
in the Soviet Union and that's why a lot
of times when they went back Stalin had
them killed because they saw too much or
sent to the camps
so just to linger on this idea of free
speech so there's constant
discussion about free speech in this
modern debate about social media and all
that kind of stuff what what's your take
on it grounding it
not in some kind of shallow discussion
or Free Speech we have today but more in
the context of
and the suppression of speech in um
stalinist Russia I hate the term free
speech
um because it's used in many different
contexts some I agree with entirely some
I disagree with at all uh I don't think
everyone has something to say or
something after the conversation
um and you know I have my locals
Community
um and it used to be I think the the
boilerplate language is you know come
support free speech and free discourse
and I changed that because I I don't
like that term
um because people will tell you with
some reason that oh if you block me and
or on Twitter you're avoiding my free
speech it's like okay so I don't I don't
like that term as a whole but one of the
points of the white pill and something I
see enormous parallels with today
if you have one news Outlet or three
news outlets with identical ideology
you're not going to be able to get to
any kind of Truth or any kind of useful
information it's all going to be
pre-filted for you it's like a baby bird
and you're eating the mother Bird's
vomit right but
if you have what we have increasing now
with technology if you have a world
where everyone has a camera on their
phone if you have a world where anyone
can put their ideas out there maybe
they're banned from certain Outlets but
they're not literally vanished like they
were in the USSR that is very healthy
that is something I'm enormously
supportive of because back in the day if
you only had the TV Crews with cameras
you can only see what they're capturing
and they could edit it whereas now
we saw this recently during covid right
you had these reporters with masks on
and they're talking but the cameraman
wasn't wearing a mask so you'd have the
people on the street being like look
this they don't believe it you know or
as soon as they would start filming the
guy took the mask off and they'd film
them they go you are lying you don't
believe this you're putting this on for
some purpose whether you're leaving the
thickacy of mass or not that person
clearly does not is only putting on for
show so that's or crimes
it's people you know are anti-police
they say okay the cop said this did he
draw the gun in this guy necessarily so
on and so forth it is so much better
when everyone has access to as much of
the information as possible and can make
that informed decision themselves now
there certainly is
space for informed people to be like no
no no this isn't what it looks like if
you look here if you look there it's
cropped here so on and so forth but
that's still much more useful than just
having that 20 second clip that someone
has decided to edit for you so like
truth has a way of because it's
everything is so interconnected truth no
matter what has what finding his way to
the populace and also there's an there's
a big asymmetry in terms of trust
so if I tell you a hundred truths and
One Lie that lie is equal I'm I'm
screwed because once you catch me in
like a you don't have to kill someone
every day to be a murderer right you
only have to do it once so if you catch
me in a Brazen lie you're gonna look at
everything I say after that with an
enormous grain of salt
um so that is another big asymmetry in
favor of truth if someone trusts you you
have to be honest all the time and
you're gonna make mistakes you can own
those mistakes be like hey this is why I
made the mistake this is why I said such
and such okay but the flip side of that
which has been disheartening to me is
that people on the conspiracy side
conspiracy theory side of things
I've noticed how easy it is to just call
something a lie yes and then that
becomes viral for some reason there's a
desire for people yeah for anyone who
points out that the emperor is not
wearing a clothes even when the emperor
is fully closed
so I don't know what that is but that
really seems to mess with this tooth
mechanism so when uh when it becomes
viral to call people a liar whether
they're a liar or not it's like I'm feel
you feel like on unstable ground because
it to me that idea of revealing a lie
that somebody told is a really powerful
mechanism to keep people honest but when
you're like misusing a crying wolf too
much well it seems it seems to break the
system makes me nervous because there's
also like um well just if someone is a
liar that doesn't mean literally
everything they say is a Lie No but what
is a lie and what isn't I I just noticed
that there's money to be made in calling
out something as a lie
it's just
um the conspiracy theories straight up
uh the the the the the first thing some
traumatic event happened give an
explanation that's not the mainstream
explanation no matter what whether it's
true or lie there's a lot of virality
and money to be made in that and that
makes me nervous because it doesn't
matter if it's true or not it becomes
anti-establishment ideas are viral
whether they whether they're true or not
sure but I think establishment ideas are
powerful whether they're true or not so
I think on the whole I think you're
right I mean and the whole it's good to
test the power centers but it just makes
me
nervous in our attention economy that
the sexy thing seems to be the
anti-establishment message
and then it feels like that becomes a
drug where you uh everything
anything The Establishment says anything
is that you should say anything in the
mainstream says must be wrong because it
comes from the mainstream I I have that
line that you you're supposed to take
one red pill not the whole bottle yeah I
am certainly one of those people who is
of the idea that they are dishonest far
more more open that they're honest
um that said there are people who are of
the belief to use an extreme example
that Trump is still the shadow president
um and and you know there's going to be
these Q Anon Mass arrests I thought this
was something that like The Daily Beast
made up to make fun of Mega but I was
just on the phone with my buddy last
night and he was like no no if you go to
truth Central they're like all over
there and if you disagree with them they
call you uh controlled opposition or a
grifter or so on and so forth this is
unfortunately where uh trust Central
Trump's social media Outlet oh truth no
truth yeah but he he forgot the name of
it himself so he's like you gotta
explain the jokes they've got to explain
the jokes you do like uh like the the
way Twitter puts that context you gotta
you gotta do the joke and then pause and
expl like turn to the camera and explain
it and have a laugh track but yeah so
people know what the jokes are that's
that's how that's real humor yeah
absolutely and then we just clap and
everyone and then everybody clapped
um I think for the last two years
especially vis-a-vis covid the
overwhelming message was the experts
know what they're talking about and if
you are questioning this you're a vax
denier and you basically should be read
out of polite society and one obvious
counter example to this was social
distancing if social distancing was
efficacious why were there no attempts
ever to bring it back right when you had
different waves and if it wasn't
efficacious why was it so insistent that
we do it all do it at the very beginning
in fact in many places you'll still see
the signs on the floor where it's six
feet apart so there's an incongruity
there and I think it we are forgetting
as the people the intensity with and
understandably to some extent if you
have this worldwide deadly plague like
yeah like it's gonna be go where the
leakiest hole is so you really gotta
kind of get everyone on board but to the
the vehemence with which we're told we
know what we're doing this is the way to
solve it if you don't do it you are
causing Mass death that I think fed in
very heavily to people's enormous sense
of skepticism toward establishment
sources
speaking of the plague you opened the
book with uh yeah that quote from Camus
it's a strong strong quote Camus brings
me to tears and it's funny because I
reread the myth of Sisyphus which I've
been recommending to people I'm like
this book is not good but he's got his
ethos is my favorite of all the
philosophers it sounds like the myth of
Sisyphus was a myth
he says after I cute
all I maintain is that on this Earth
there are plagues and there are victims
and it's up to us so far as possible not
to join forces with the plagues and why
I have that as the introductory quotes
the book is
I think morality and ethics are very
very complicated subjects there's lots
of gray areas where you don't know which
way to choose but at a base level he has
another quote that subscribed to him he
never actually said but something about
um you know is the duty of thinking
people not to be in the side of the
executioners
if you are go we should do whatever we
can
not to have blood on our hands not to be
murderers not to want death and that in
and of itself is a big pill for a lot of
people to swallow we're all brought up
taught that war is a last resort and yet
when it comes to International Affairs
it's always often a first priority and
people are champing at the bit to start
going in and killing people and what war
means isn't good guy soldiers versus bad
guy soldiers it my concern is always
with the civilians with the kids who
become orphans with the wives who become
widows and and things like that and then
communities which are you know ruined
forever uh so I I love that quote of his
I think he's I mean the book started it
was going to be a recontextualization of
Camus thought I was going to rip off my
old body Vine holiday what he did with
the stoics and do about Camus and then
when I started rereading Camu I'm like
oh there's I've read more into him than
is really there and then it went the
whole other direction uh so you wanted
to do almost
like an existentialist Manifesto so like
imagine that one must imagine sis was
happy well more like kamu for today and
and what his philosophy can teach us
like Ryan did with his many books yeah
and it was going to be called the point
of Tears
live to the point of Tears yes but the
title was giving me the point of Tears
no I know but it does that from that one
that's a good line right he has so many
good lines yeah maybe it's not about
shitty in bed though right well no he
was a big he was a big lothario he was
pretty much he got around
what percent of the audience of humans
on Earth do you think know the the word
lotharia what percent of them have a
computer look it up
lothario it's not some weird term sorry
l-o-t-h-a-r-i-o lothario lothario a man
who behaves selfishly in response to
being his sexual relationships with
women they're seduced by handsome in
quotes they're seduced by Handsome
lothario who gains control of their
financial affairs oh I I don't think I
always thought it was divorce just
someone who's like a stud like a player
but not a player yeah there's a I'm 11
malevolent oh I didn't realize that okay
well then selfishly okay that's not him
irresponsibly in a Man Too
um
although Ein Rand would be proud
selfishly well nothing's wrong with
selfish she wouldn't like that kind of
selfishness that's sexy behaves a man
who behaves selfishly and irresp
irresponsibly in his sexual
relationships with women
huh
yeah okay so he was he was just a player
no no maybe it's maybe a stud I don't
think he was promiscuous particularly
Nietzsche didn't get he got he didn't
never got laid right yes
it was from prostitutes was it okay
possibly yeah if you're asking me like I
knew the guy I I heard it's from
um it he never had a deep loving
fulfilling relationship he had a very
skewed understanding on uh the way he
wrote about women although somebody
wrote to me and said that's a
mischaracterization that he was actually
very respectful yeah but he had that
line if you're going before women bring
a whip wasn't that him was that show but
if I were to quote you from your Twitter
yeah I think I could make a very
convincing argument that you're sexist
racist and probably a Nazi
well I do own like
some of Hitler's stuff exactly I I got
the I rest my case I feel like I'm a
Nuremberg
this isn't a time it's a noose
you should have thought about that when
you were saying all those things okay
what do you think of the leak of the
Twitter files
I
was
so
happy
that Elon gave the information to Matt
taibi and Barry Weiss who are both by
any metric lefties who are both
professional journalists of
long-standing with great resumes and
overnight now they're they're doing PR
for the world's Rich whatever the party
line was
the fact that you had all these
corporate journalists now having to play
catch up and not having control of the
microphone to me was just absolutely
amazing
um I think transparency is what brought
down in many aspects of Soviet Union and
what will bring down what negative
aspects of the regime we have here
when you see the machinations behind the
scenes and then when you see the
rationalizations after the fact you
realize oh these people are not acting
in good faith the fact that for example
the New York Post article about the
hunter Biden laptop and how the the New
York Times comforted as well they didn't
mention any kind of dick pics Twitter
made it so I couldn't even DM you the
link to the New York Post article which
was a tool they had previously used only
to prevent child pornography
so that shows to what extent they were
willing to put their thumb on the scale
but it also shows that
for any laymen when they're looking at
this to realize what you are perceiving
as news or information
is very much sculpted edited and guided
by powerful people who have a vested
interest in maintaining their uh Power I
think to me the important lesson is this
is not a left to right thing oh not at
all powerless yes and but and also the
important lesson there I think at least
in the case of Twitter in our society
it's a it's a slippery slope you don't
get there overnight
you start you start using those tools a
little bit a little bit to slow down
this information to just a little bit
that you start uh sending emails to each
other a little bit and it becomes more
and more
um you you start forming justifications
you start getting a little more and more
comfortable kind of talking about the
stuff
um I think
there are several ways to fight that one
is having hardcore Integrity up front so
don't even open the door but I think
realistically human nature is what it is
and so I think the only way is through
transparency is this is why the nice I I
hate the fact they got politicized I
really hate that the right has have run
with it like look the left is planning
the rig elections and so on to me that's
it shouldn't be left or right it
shouldn't be about politics it's that
transparency is good other companies
should do the same Facebook should do
the same and in fact that transparency
will protect Facebook it will protect
Google look like this is our situation
tell us what to do and we'll do our best
I remember when I was writing the new
right Twitter's line was we're not going
to tell you guys what the metrics are by
which we ban or censor people because
then Bad actors are going to navigate
around them and it's like what are you
doing like just tell people in any
establishment what are the rules for
which behavior is permissible if I go to
a store if I were return the sweater is
it cash back no refunds or if I get
store credit you know what I mean so
that they were having this place which
was presented as a
huge International Space for public
discourse and they're not telling you
ahead of time this is what we will
tolerate this is what we'll warn you
about this is what will kick you out
overnight that to me was crazy and
outrageous and I'm really pleased with
to what extent Elon is like it is being
open with their policies and what I
really want to commend him about
is now I'm triggered because one of the
things that he took over he's like our
first priority is getting rid of child
pornography and child exploitation yeah
yeah right that was he's like like
racial slurs homophobics there's
anti-semitic stories yeah yeah that's
cool kids kids getting harmed is number
one and you know he fired the old task
force because they weren't doing their
job uh Eliza blue who you know you know
she had been on this for a long time but
people who were victims of child
pornography child expectation were
emailing Twitter being like these are my
images get them off and they're like too
bad porn is allowed on Twitter he starts
trying to crack down on it this is a
very hard problem because these uh Bad
actors have mechanisms to evade uh you
know being banned they they want to get
there for lack of a better term product
out there Forbes Magazine
who is an agent of the devil had a tweet
and they tweeted this nine times you
know now that elon's here Twitter's
child porn nightmare has gotten much
worse they tweet us nine times I looked
up anyone listeners can look up look at
Forbes and do a search they never
mentioned this problem before so now
that Elon is doing something about it
now it's a problem for you no it's a
problem elon's the problem it's not the
child porn that you guys had a problem
with and that to me is like yeah I
understand that you think that Elon is a
bad guy because he's upset your apple
cart this isn't a political issue this
isn't a gotcha moment this is all right
here are some tips we talked to 10
experts digital experts and here are
some techniques Mr musk that you might
want to take from us free of charge that
will help you solve this that would be a
great article
and I just want to use this opportunity
to say quite clearly and strongly that
even though Twitter and other parts of
the internet I are interpreting some of
my statements to me and I'm right
in this case meaning leaning right right
wing and in other cases leaning left
left wing I'm not I'm apolitical or at
least I try to be in my thinking take
one issue at a time I do take an opinion
on each issue at a time but I hate camps
I don't try to avoid political accounts
in general it just it sucks that
promoting transparency in this case or
celebrating transparency
um is somehow
connected to being right wing no it's
being made into so supposed euphemism
for being right wing
it's just it sucks uh it sucks even
though I'm wearing a red suit and this
is a very red themed conversation well
that's I mean the Revolution was the
color of blood
I'm just gonna let it sit on that for a
second okay uh you mentioned New York
Times bestseller list you chose to
self-publish yes can we just Linger on
that decision what's what are the pros
and cons of self-publishing the cons are
it is acceptable in our current business
climate or cultural climate for
corporate media Outlets to pretend the
book doesn't exist yep so basically and
there's reason for it I can make the
case of them pretty easily if someone's
doing it themselves who is this guy's
some crackpot writing crazy stuff from
his basement right it's a little
different I think for me because I'm an
established author uh C-SPAN gave me an
hour on book TV I'm still a crackpot but
yeah for dear reader I think I was the
first one to get an hour on book TV for
a book that I did myself
um so there is space for that
um it didn't go through a vetting
process the way a book going through a
corporate publisher did so those are the
minuses
the pros are
uh I can drop it and publish it
immediately
uh if you go through a corporate
publisher you have to wait a year
um you can do what you could have the
book you want instead of the getting
past the editor and some editors are
very very good and there's a whole
Spectrum some of them not so good some
are good
I know the real killers all right let's
be there's good people on both sides
yeah there's plenty of people at both
sides yeah and I don't mean the white
nationalists who I condemn totally
um
so but the thing is in terms of money
you get six times as much
uh profit when you're self-published
then when you go through a corporate
publisher
um the buck stops here it's you know in
one of my books that I co-authored I
won't even mention the name there is a
typo and they didn't they don't care
they didn't fix it for the paperback
edition here since I'm going through
Amazon if there's a typo I can fix it
live and it updates oh yeah yep you can
just update it yeah so that's very
useful like a Fight Club thing where you
can insert like a dick pic in one of the
pages okay why are you so why do you
keep texting me to send you dick pics
talk about your suggestion you're all
right all right all right yeah I guess
I'm not the editor I get it North Pole I
get it yeah
um the other advantage
just socially is I think people are like
I found this with the kickstarter I did
for de-reader people are much more
excited to buy it and promote it and
talk about it when they know you're
doing it yourself instead of you're
getting a big check from
you know St Martin's Harper Collins
penguin whatever are you also trying to
use some kind of service to get it
distributed to bookstores or you just
going to do Amazon no just Amazon yeah
and that's probably what most sales
happen a vast majority yeah so it's not
going to be in bookstores so what's how
difficult is the process of getting it
on Amazon so I'll tell you a funny story
about how Amazon works and because this
was a I always plan for because everyone
uh
people's here's another piece of advice
I will give people your life will be a
lot easier if you realize that the
majority of people in every industry are
bad at their jobs like once you have
that realization everything else makes
sense and you your life will be a lot
easier right so when I did the anarchist
handbook which was a collection of
essays from various anarchists
throughout history
when I submitted it to Amazon there was
a lot of copyright issues because
they're like do you have the rights to
this essay do you have the right to this
says it has to go back and forth with
them a lot uh to make sure I had
copyright where everything was public
domain and that and the thing is you
forward you know you update it you get
the information three days there's
another problem within three days so
it's weeks the other thing with their
CreateSpace program is the paperback and
the ebook the Kindle are approved
independently so just because it's
approved for one it's not for the other
after I published amarcus handbook and
it was a big success
they Unleashed enrolled excuse me a
hardcover Edition uh program so I'm like
oh great I'll put in hardcover they're
like sorry this is too similar to uh
Murray rothbard's Anatomy estate and
which is a pamphlet or short book that
Mary rothbard wrote I go well wait I
have the entirety of anatomy state in
here I have permission from The mises
Institute in writing which I'm giving to
you to reprint it and you guys already
haven't been published for a year as a
paperback and ebook and they're like too
bad blocked so it's not available as a
hardcover on Amazon even though it's
available maybe now it's going to be
pulled as paperback an ebook so with
this book I was anticipating all right
there's going to be some whatever I the
thing with how it works is you have to
upload it and hit publish and then you
got to wait for the approval yeah I'm
like okay this is gonna be who knows I
just wanted to get as fast as possible 4
AM
less than 24 hours I get a notification
congratulations your books available for
sale and have to run downstairs and pull
it yeah from publication because
otherwise it was out and I didn't finish
editing it yeah so that's the situation
there oh that's fascinating but that's
like powerful that's like you're it's
it's all in your hands it's all on you
yes and I think the program is great
um it charts just like any other book
um the quality of the books is great I
am uh very happy with uh I have no I
have no contact with them uh my buddy
Tucker Max he had a company that did
this and they basically helped people
self-punch their own book they did the
Goggins book I think you've talked to
him haven't you uh or yeah maybe they
emailed me or something yeah yeah and he
said I have done dozens maybe hundreds
of books with them I have never been
able to get someone on the phone so I
don't know what's going on over there
but guys if you want to reach out to me
um please call me it's Michael
lexfreegman.com
laughs
Friedman is spelled wrong yeah if you
ever have any complaints
please just add me at Twitter
about Michael no
uh why do you what do you think so if
you establish authors
self-publish
I mean why it seems like it makes
perfect sense in this modern society to
be able to when you finish the book to
publish it within a few days a few weeks
I think I talked to Jordan Peterson
about this at length and Michaela his
daughter who I'm also good friends with
she's actually named after Gorbachev
who's the big hero of this book also
friend Michael you know I was in talks
to interview Gorbachev and then covet
hit and that's one of the big regrets of
my life that I didn't get I think if I
met him I would be
on my knees literally kissing his feet
crying uh because of you I mean one of
the big points of the white pill is
there were so many moments
when they were calling him up sending
the tanks we want another Tiananmen
Square and he's like fuck you so when
you have anyone who has the capacity to
murder
thousands of people and chooses to
withhold that power like all I could do
is applaud he resisted the cynicism yes
wait so the why the authors why I don't
publish all the books I think they're
still in the you know how like there's
this whole idea about how if you're a
movie actor you don't go on TV because
that kind of ruins your brand so and
that's kind of going away there's a lot
of shows where the lead is now like a
former movie actor and this is kind of
like they're a big thing like Matthew
McConaughey you know he had a TV show um
on HBO I believe so I think there's this
kind of like wait a minute what's that
and he reset I said all right
you see all right all right all right
all right
Matthew McConaughey all right all right
I don't I don't I don't know what that
is sorry
um just I'll explain it this is what
look at the context below okay so I
think for them it might be a a loss of
credibility to some extent but B they
their agent
whose job is to sell them and get a big
Advance wouldn't be encouraging to
self-publish because you know so I don't
think it's percolated to powerful people
yet how feasible this is and how
profitable it is and how they'll still
be able to reach Their audience
um and I feel if you know I don't if
Anarchist handbook wasn't such a
gigantic success
um I would be much more nervous about
the white pill but the fact that it was
and that I saw it from start to finish
and I know the ins and outs now I'm like
what are you guys bringing to the table
so that's taking a year of my time and
introducing edits that I would not
otherwise agree with I think for some
people a book is a
is the sort of Beacon of reputation so
like so it's really important to not
there's somehow not as much reputation
associated with a self-published book
unless it's successful yes and then and
then like the it's success outshines the
actual however it was published I think
I guess David Goggins self-published uh
his book because it used to be you
self-publish when you can't get a book
deal so it's like an admission of
failure
yeah so you would recommend it as
something for for authors no I would
recommend it as something for authors of
a certain stature for lack a better term
because it is still in terms of your
resume and your experience it's better
to get a crappy advance and have a book
with Saint Martins that goes nowhere
than a self-published book that goes
nowhere so the other thing is you have
to make sure you have enough an audience
that you can move some copies
what about only fans would you recommend
authors
how much money do you think you and I
can make if we didn't like bathtub
scenes in only fans not just chilling
just reading like reading like Animal
Farm just like while sitting in the
reality
I don't know okay snowflake
okay
uh uh all right what was his name no the
horse uh boxer I'm hung like a boxer
I I will work harder
and that guy I think about that guy a
lot boxer yeah he's uh his motto was I
will work harder anything that happens
like the the the pigs would take
advantage and his response to everything
he was inspiring to me because he never
gave in to the cynicism right and they
killed him yeah spoiler sorry
but that's a good way to die never
giving in
well yeah there's a lot of that in this
book about the people who are like I'm
not you're not gonna break me like I'm
bigger than this
did you uh ever believe in Santa
uh I remember the day I woke up on New
Year's and there was a president under
my pillow and it was like holy shit
because left it that's the whole thing
he leaves your present under your pillow
right so you believed but what I thought
the story was going to be when you first
realized he's not real I don't remember
when I realized he wasn't real but that
story was I did think it was real I was
like oh my God and okay there's this
because I did too and I remember
I don't think I can put myself in the
mindset of the kind of person that
believed he was real
because what did I think what was my
world view that allowed
like a giant person in a red suit to be
real
although I do remember I think the first
time a Santa Claus showed up to our like
lived in this very small apartment and
uh when he first showed up to our
apartment
I just remembered because he was really
drunk and and smelled it was like a
party it was like a New Year's party or
whatever so one of the one of the people
dressed up with Santa Claus and just
remember this
wow this this gotten like real fast
like I I remember like thinking of
course of course it would be like what
was I thinking what was I thinking
there's gonna be some perfect
like being a perfect being like better
than like the best of humanity he was
just a regular dude
kind of fat but like not sexy fat it was
yeah uh not really that jolly and kind
of exhausted I really have not showered
in a while but also funny I I remember I
love telling the story how old I was and
I must have been five or six and it was
just that age where you distinguish
between what's real and what's not so
like Vikings and
um Knights and ninjas are real and
dragons and mermaids and elves are fake
and I was on the corner of shore parkway
right before the park in Bensonhurst in
Brooklyn and around the corner wearing a
denim vest
uh was a little person a dwarf and I saw
him and I was like all right back to the
drawing board like I don't know what's
real or not anymore because I just saw a
dwarf so I don't know what's going on
and since then
given your relationship with Alex Jones
you've continued the Journey of not
knowing what's real or not that's
correct all right let's talk about the
next steps after Stalin took power he
started to actually implementing some of
the economic some of the policies in
this idea of uh collectivization yeah
what's the story of that in the uh in
the 20s uh leading into the 30s what was
this idea what was the relationship
between the regime the ideology and the
the farmers well there's always been and
obviously very much this day an enormous
amount of
and enmity for lack of better term
hatred between Ukraine and Russia I mean
this is you know centuries in the making
if not more and the Ukraine or Ukraine
now but at the time the I'm speaking of
the region
is and still is the Bread Basket of
Europe it was very fertile lands this is
where the food comes from and this was a
issue also for Lenin as I discussed in
the book because when you had famines
there you know you have famines
throughout uh what later became the
Soviet Union
and the problem is this happened in
North Korea as well in the 90s when they
don't have food if you let in foreigners
and feed your people all of a sudden you
as the government are either Superfluous
or downright you know deleterious to
their well-being and that's a threat to
your power uh so Lenin let in an
American organization the early 20s
which was actually headed by Herbert
Hoover of all people and after a while
Hoover left because he found that the
Bolsheviks were just taking the grain
that the Americans were giving to feed
the people and selling it for export
while the people suffered and one of
people who grew up in these uh
starvation times was a young Mikhail
Gorbachev where he had you know I think
it's like a quarter or a third of his
village starved to death during one of
these periodic famines
um let Stalin's idea this was a good
mechanism for him to break
the idea of Ukraine being an independent
nation into within its own identity
um and you know he had this kind of
liquidation of the kulaks you know very
famously which thankfully is much more
discussed now than it was maybe when you
and I were kids
and akulak the real meaning or the
literal meaning is kind of this wealthy
landowner right but very quickly it's
kind of like it becomes out group so you
know there was a a big incentive to call
someone you didn't like a kulak and then
good luck to you because now the eyes of
the state are on you and you have to
prove that you know you didn't hire
people you you didn't have four cows or
how many acres or so and so forth they
took a huge percentage of the population
the kulaks and they just deported them
you know these are lands that they had
for generations and they just spread
them throughout uh uh broader Russia
many of them never made it and many of
them were killed this was by Design and
the dark thing about the cool Ox like
you said when it becomes abused when it
becomes the the owl group is
the clock is supposed to be uh wealthier
than sort of the general right
um farmer peasant and so basically it
gives you a mechanism of resentment
anybody that's better off must be better
off because they're cool let's get rid
of them and it has a
um just just from an economics
perspective uh even leaving ethics aside
it basically completely dis
de-incentivizes productivity like it
wants you to fail because if you succeed
you're a cool lock and you're going to
be tortured you're going to be deported
uh you're going to be derided all that
and also you're poor because he's rich
like that's a big part of it so while
this was going on and food was becoming
a problem because you had uh you know
for weather conditions
uh there was a campaign about oh the
reason you're hungry is because the
kulaks are hoarding all the grain yeah
uh and if you're somewhere else in in
the Soviet Union how are you supposed to
know any better because you're being
told every year the crops are bumper
crop bumper crop bumper crop but now
there's no food there's no bread and so
you see we we produced all this bread
it's not getting to you because the cool
locks are according to grain so there
they came like um in what became known
to haldemore and Applebaum uh who's a
great historian who unfortunately I
disagree with a lot in contemporary
politics but who's done so much great
work about the uh the Soviet Union that
I pretty much give her a blank check and
whatever she wants to say nowadays you
know she wrote a great book about this
called red famine and these activists
descended on these Villages like locusts
and their job was to requisition as much
food as possible and they would come
back you know at all hours of the night
to make sure you weren't hiding food and
this is what was so pernicious about it
your own body would betray you they
could look at you and see that you're
not losing weight you're got those
chubby cheeks that means you have food
and that's the government's food that is
the food of the people and if you are
keeping food for yourself you are
stealing from the people you're an enemy
of the people and you deserve whatever
comes to you and it got to a point where
they're eating they didn't have grain to
plant for the next Harvest
um and what was even sicker is you know
one of the big criticisms of of
Communists of the Czar was his internal
passport system that I can't go wherever
I want within Russia the Russian Empire
without permission uh Stalin
reintroduced this
so if your village was targeted you
can't leave now some people got away
they tried to get to the cities and so
on and so forth but you get to the city
and you're starving you have no clothes
you're a coolock I'm hungry because of
you and now you're too lazy to get the F
out of there and there were stories you
know uh you know I have them in in the
white pill of this like starving teenage
girl and she's begging for food and the
guy knocks the The shopkeep Knocks the
food out of her hand and she dies on the
spot and everyone in that line knew not
to you know give her uh any food or any
sympathy because she's a cool lock
sympathizer and very quickly if you're a
cool luck sympathizer all that has to
happen is someone has to call I think it
was the nkpd at the time you know the
different names for the Checker the
secret police and they had to be like oh
you see uh whatever her name was jenya
she was a kulak sympathizer we saw kulak
who was trying to shake us down for food
because too lazy to work and she uh felt
so bad for them so you might want to
check in on jenya so yeah
but in 32 and 33 holiday Moore
it wasn't just
um small Injustice here and there it was
mass starvation yes and suffering yes
Millions starve to death in the Ukraine
alone and by Design
so you uh mentioned and applebaum's book
red famine yeah Stars war in Ukraine but
another excellent book on on the topic
and by the way thank you for
recommending that to me so
um her work's amazing yeah it's it's a
really really powerful uh book about not
just about hanamore but like the context
of Ukraine
basically the history of Ukraine that's
relevant for today yeah
to understand understand the the
relationship between Russia and Ukraine
uh but another great book is bloodlands
Europe between Hitler and Stalin by
Timothy I don't know I think you also
recommend that to me at some point or
maybe not I haven't but I'm I'm familiar
with that and read it uh so he he does
quite a bit of it's brief but extremely
well researched writing about
cannibalism there okay and that it was
not uncommon during the Stalin imposed
famine in the Soviet Ukraine for parents
to cook and eat their children he writes
quote survival was immoral as well as a
physical struggle a woman doctor wrote
to a friend in June 1933 that she had
not yet become a cannibal but was not
sure that it shall not be won by the
time my letter reaches you
in quotes the good people died first
those who refused to steal or to
prostitute themselves died those who
gave food to others died those who
refused to eat corpses died those who
refused to kill their fellow man died
parents who resisted cannibalism died
before their children did and their
stories in there about
um
yeah cooking cooking your children
uh the the other thing about cannibalism
about famine in general that stood out
to me that unlike a lot of atrocities
is uh the people that are starving are
exhausted they're they're basically
unable to think
so they don't even have the energy to
protest
it's a it's a strange kind of way
to kill thinking in the populace
that that it kind of I suppose it was
obvious
but there's something fundamental about
starvation where it's slowly removes
your Humanity
um
yeah there's a there was a scene in the
book where um
a lot of times people literally go crazy
and there's a scene where Mom it's some
nursing train station was nursing her
kid and she was you know going mad from
hunger and she just starts beating the
crap out of her baby and kicking it and
then she just reverts to normal like
nothing had happened uh yeah Madness
like yeah yeah you lose yeah you lose
your mind yeah yeah and uh I mean I
don't know what the physiological cause
of this it's not it's I think it's you
know if someone has dealt with a
glycogen depletion it affects their mood
things like that so taken to an extreme
who knows what happens when parts of the
brain start functioning and start
imploding
um but yeah it's um
what I wanted what just happened this is
something that's really cool regarding
the holiday more so there was one
Western journalist Gareth Jones
who was like all right something's not
adding up here so he was supposed to
take a train uh through Ukraine and he
got out early
and decided to start walking through the
countryside to go from Village to
Village
and I'll get to his story in a minute
right before we started recording I got
this book in the mail I ordered on
November 28th from Great Britain it was
the only copy available on the whole
internet it's called experiences in
Russia 1931 it is anonymous
and it's uh Gareth Jones wrote the
introduction it was published by the
Alton Press in Pittsburgh it was
self-published and
she just says forward it just says by
the author
so it was the author who who went
alongside
um Gareth Jones was summoned by the name
of
Henry John Hines who was uh heir to the
Heinz Fortune
and you only know that if you start
looking the internet because his name's
not into this book well I open this book
up right when I got it right before
we're taping
and it's signed by him and it took me a
second I'm like wait a minute who's the
signed by and it's h.j Hines because his
name was Jack Hines but it was Henry
John Hines from so this is I'm very
excited that I had this little miracle
in the mail
um Christmas miracle it's a Christmas
miracle we traveled they traveled
together they travel together so this
book's a diary of their travels why do
you think so few journalists
they was able to do what he did so there
were several reasons first of all if you
were a western journalist in the Soviet
Union you were under very strict uh uh
circumstances first of all you could be
deported any time you had no there was
no pretense that you have a right to be
a journalist in uh as a special as a
representative of a capitalist by which
they meant Western paper uh second it
was a complete nightmare getting your
paper your articles filed because you
had a sensor that you had to go through
and the censor's job whose life depended
on it was to make sure that your story
was advantageous to the Soviet Union or
at least neutral uh and they had all
sorts of techniques you know they could
spot they spied on you all the time they
followed you around because you know
you're a foreigner but also that sensor
had to answer to somebody so all the
sensor could has to do is be like look I
having trouble with my supervisor and
the reporter could be like well can I
talk to supervisor it's like well I'm
sorry that's not possible and he's on
deadline but it's too bad bureaucracy
doesn't recognize the needs of deadlines
so
there was a big uh pressure a lot of
pressure on Western journalists to have
to get through this net and that's
literally constant you know every story
it's going to be a fight so at a certain
point you're just going to be like all
right and you're going to pre-censor
yourself you know if you know all right
if I include this it's not going to get
through what are you supposed to do I
think human beings are naturally and
also a lot of these journalists were
pro-soviet they thought this is the
Society of the future at least
everyone's trying to make it a better
country for everyone not like back home
with a poor poor slip between the cracks
uh we got to do what we can to make this
work
and
you know there was a lot of I don't want
to say conspiracy but within the
industry there was a consensus that the
Stalin was the good guy and we were if
not the bad guy certainly not as good uh
in certain regards so when this news of
the famine started percolating all the
other Western journalists besides Gareth
Jones and Malcolm muggerage were saying
this isn't true it's nothing that they
haven't seen before the paper that took
the lead in this was New York Times with
their guy Walter Durante who had
previously won a Pulitzer and had
interviewed Stalin which was a
enormously rare honor for a Westerner
um and he because he has so much
experience covering uh Russia and the
Soviet Union he basically took the lead
and other people followed his lead you
know he was kind of the dean of the
press Corps in Russia and he made a
point and the thing there's so many
quotes I have from him
um where he's not only denying that this
Mass starvation is happening he's also
going after journalists who are
questioning the narrative and he you
know he says things like look this is
nothing that the Russians haven't
experienced before they're simply
tightening their belts and it's like you
only have to tighten your belt when you
don't have enough food it's not like
they started a new exercise regimen and
now their body Fat's dropping that's why
would someone tied their belt so that
was one and there the New York Times had
a 13 page article big headline Russians
hungry not starving and he went after
Jones he went after muggerage I believe
no he dig off the Margaret but the point
being that this is just propaganda from
people who want the Soviet Union to fail
you know they don't understand what
they're building here uh you know he had
so many excuses like oh you know the
reason all these Russians are supposedly
leaving their villages to go to the
cities isn't because there's no food
it's because they're nomadic it's
tradition they go from town to town
looking for new experiences and it's
just you know at a certain point and I
think it's 1941 where he was eventually
like or 51 rather I remember he was like
oh well uh
I guess I was kind of wrong and it's
like he's like any journalist worth his
salt can admit when he's wrong and it's
like well were you worth your salt
because you sure you he explicitly said
there's no point in sending out
journalists to look for themselves I've
been through the countryside and
everyone's fine and it's just that the
loudest people are making noise whereas
everyone else is doing the work and and
you know trying and and this isn't about
famine but it's about Western skeptical
about collectivization which is just
simply a new way of farming and yeah it
was a new way of farming and the results
were by Design and also accidentally
absolutely catastrophic
how how hard was it
to see the truth at that time do you
think do you think that was a mistake
that that's understandable to make as a
journalist if my job as a journalist
I have two bosses if I'm in Moscow I've
got my reporter in New York or London or
whatever but I've got my sensor here and
he is making sure I have
a house the department he makes sure I
have food he makes you have access to
dignitaries he's my lifeline if I piss
him off I'm on the next plane out of
town so is that enough is that enough to
uh
slowly suffocate the Integrity of a
journalist I don't think it was slow at
all and it was clearly enough and
because what are they going to disagree
with that I just I I I think the failure
of integrity
has to come from New York on the New
York on the American side that it's just
the flock of fish or whatever that all
move in the same narrative right
I think journalists
would like to be the kind of people that
have integrity so if they are conscious
of sacrificing their own Integrity they
wouldn't do it if they're conscious of
an act that's doing it they wouldn't do
it so it has to happen like a lobster
slowly boiling no I think it happens
when everyone else is it's a it's a
Greek chorus right it's a chorus but
that's exactly that's right so it's not
about the ACT but they will I mean I've
talked to no journalists where I get the
sense that they will sell their soul for
access
because that's their job
is it though because what they do what
journalists do I've seen American
journalists they take a huge amount of
pride for having gotten the interview
whatever that is the the Putin interview
and
first of all they they're gleaming
they're they're glowing with pride it
seems like they're always showing off to
the other journalists back in America so
they're going on they're showing off
like look I got the access you didn't
and second thing they're doing when they
show up to that interview is they ask
all the questions that signal to the
other journalists that we're on the same
side they ask the most generic
aggressive questions to which they know
the answers
to to they they just they want to they
want to basically get the access and ask
the quote unquote hard-hitting questions
that they know will not be answered and
this is this is the entire Machinery of
it it's not it's that's modern
journalism and I suppose at that time
it was worse it was worse they weren't
even doing the hard-hitting the uh the
display of hard-hitting questions right
because there's PR pieces think about
what high status that is if I'm an
American journalist in Moscow I'm
allowed in this secretive country I'm
you know I'm the I'm the guy who's very
privileged to have access to live in
Moscow and tell Americans which we're
all fascinated about this new Society of
the future what it's like and as soon as
I kind of uh start questioning the
narrative I'm gonna get kicked out and
humiliated very publicly I thought you
were in Moscow what am I supposed to say
so you know they uh Eugene Lyons
was you know he's one of the heroes in
the book he was a young communist and I
think it was United press he was working
for they sent him there and when he went
there he's like oh this is not what I
thought it was going to be like this is
horrible and he's he's turned very
heavily against it but he talks about
how they would write one thing and say
another thing and then think another
thing and each of those steps was just
more and more like kind of lying in
terms of maintaining your sanity and
maintaining your narrative
so you uh reference an apple bomb
and say that quote starvation was not
simply a consequence it was the goal and
it was the law Stalin intended to break
the ukrainians once and for all and thus
became common for villagers to spy and
inform on one another turning in a
neighbor for having a sack of grain
might be the easiest and safest way to
procure food for one's family yeah
um
to what degree was this the intention to
it to what degree does Stalin anticipate
this kind of suffering as a consequence
of the collectivization policy I don't
know that he intended the suffering to
be consequence of the collectivization
but he it was
quite
apparent and I think there's a pretty
heavy consensus nowadays that his goal
was very much because Ukraine again uh
you know resented the Czar and had this
kind of very contentious relationship uh
with Russia which obviously very clearly
remains today I mean the hatred of
ukrainians for Russians preceded Putin's
War I mean this is even when I was a kid
this uh you know I obviously don't
remember it but my parents just told me
like the hatred that they had
understandably I mean they're basically
under foreign occupation uh what they
regards for an occupation for so your
parents talked about a hatred by
Ukrainian stores Russians oh yes oh yes
I I mean I you know I
I certainly having visited there this
year because of the most recent invasion
in February in February that hatred is
uh Nationwide and very intense but I
don't know I think the feeling the
emotions were much more complex before
but at the same time at least they were
under occupation before right and they
couldn't speak Ukrainian they had to
speak Russian so this was a thing
but because of the forced intermixing
it's a it's a more complex story okay
but I mean they weren't certainly fans
yeah but there's
people that came from Marshall that are
living there they're marrying they're
falling in love they're working with
each other so like there is a the bigger
atrocity of the genocide of it but
there's also the reality of intermixing
over people's well sure I mean there's
the atrocity of slavery in the United
States but then there's also a reality
that there's now an intermixing of a of
a peoples and now they fall in love and
they live after after slavery is
abolished it's that's just the real like
uh
after the genocide right
precedes a kind of generational
integration
that still remembers like the the
suffering reverberates but there's still
um it's a different culture that's
created and now I think
I mean I have complexity most of my
family is from Ukraine so I have a and
it's my understanding is grounded in um
Soviet Ukraine but there's something in
the last 30 years that's different where
now after the collapse of the Soviet
Union there's a true
maybe you've renewed fight for
independence and that's a different
thing
but there's also a difference like you
know if I go to North Korea as an
American right they're very friendly now
right they don't perceive me as part of
the yank Devils they're like okay you're
an American but you know you come from
America so yeah there's going to be
intermarriage but that's a big
difference between the perception of
Russia as an entity as opposed to some
individual Russians
I just that wasn't the
um the experience I've had talking to a
lot of friends and family in Ukraine
until the war started really so they
really didn't have this kind of low-key
animosity towards Russians no there was
a lot of uh factional conflict
inside Ukraine okay
now the whole country is United I think
I think there's a clarity now the war
gave a clarity
that wasn't there before no this is I
was saying earlier how humans Define
themselves by opposition so now that
there's a war it's like okay this all
this little stuff doesn't matter we are
all United because we have a common
enemy but there's also as as you know
there's regions and there's
um there's just groups of different
people that people and then one of the
big divides of course is the City versus
Rural and then in the case of Ukraine
it's it's eastern Ukraine and Western
Ukraine it's very difficult to know what
the truth is because my personal
experience is sampled right you know I
don't know how many ukrainians I know
maybe like 30 or 40 before this trip
like 30 or 40 and then I'm close with
just a handful
but then it's hard to know because you
get a lot of Western press perspective
and you get the Russian perspective and
you got other perspectives it's very
hard to know how much hate there is
um outside of this conflict so my my
primary question is and this is what I
asked a lot of people when I visited
Ukraine is
will you ever will you ever be able to
forgive the Russians and a lot of people
said uh never
never so this isn't just about assuming
assuming we win they would say assuming
we win was still would not ever forgive
never never forgive and and they said it
in a way where like
not only us but our children will never
forgive and that and it wasn't just you
know what it wasn't just about uh Russia
or the Russian leadership is about
depression people
um but a lot of people also said that
this is where this is our feeling
currently we understand like you you're
lost in the Rage of War yeah
because you lose so much I mean if you
asked Americans would you ever be
friends with Germany or Japan you'd be
like are you kidding after Pearl Harbor
yeah but of course most Americans didn't
feel Pearl Harbor is different
um it's a good point when it's your own
land but uh
when when imagine it wasn't just Pearl
Harbor but it was New York right and uh
Chicago and
and Dallas and all these cities being
being bombed yeah yeah
it's it's
just a linger on this war in Ukraine
currently
does it break your heart to see what's
going on there now that it's on the same
land as the same cities
the same stories and I'll like brought
back to the surface like the the
generational pain as it was in the in
the time that you're writing about
do you think it's a fundamentally
different
country different War different
situation or does it uh do you hear
Echoes of the same I don't think it's
the same because I think there is
no one or I mean there is no one
who is like I'm glad this is happening
to the Ukrainian people right so even
the people who are for Putin and for The
Invasion and whatever justification they
might have for his War
no one is like yeah let's get those you
know darn ukrainians I think there was
that sense in America after 9 11 when we
invade Afghanistan and Iraq and there
was like if those Iraqis eftos Afghan
people
um whereas now I think it's completely
opposite uh I think I also think a lot
of Russians I'm sure if I ask them
they're not thinking like let's wipe the
Ukrainian people off the map I think
whatever reasons they have it's not kind
of going after this even if you have to
kind of rile up people against the
citizenry it's not to that level of the
history of the kulox uh hatred of uh of
of those Villages there's still a belief
though amongst the soldiers outside of
the big cities their belief that the
Ukrainian people
who the Russian soldiers believe are
their brothers and sisters are occupied
by an evil regime okay and they need to
save them from the evil regime that's
also very different from yes you know
the holiday more and also there is
dispute in the Press about the causes
the consequences the victims the
villains of Putin's War but when it came
to this
no one no one is denying
that the war is happening the New York
Times isn't saying everything is fine
and the only reason people are saying
it's a problem is because they hate
Putin or they hate zelinsky that's not a
thing and the fact that we have so much
footage of what's Happening uh uh in
Ukraine and you know you have it takes
two seconds to go on Google and you have
a map of you know Russian advancement
what are they what like for what parts
are they occupying what parts are not
out of the control uh you know I did a
little live stream I raised money for
European refugees to feed them because
that's my concerns just keeping people
fed uh there was none of that you know
and and the the two people who kind of
spoke the truth Gareth Jones was shot I
think the day
before his 30th birthday while he was on
uh undercovering uncovering news I think
he was in Mongolia Malcolm mugrage had
problem finding work when he exposed
this
um and I think the like we was talking
about earlier the ubiquity of things
like cell phones and camera phones uh
would make something like this
I don't know I wouldn't say an
impossibility if they could still do it
but it would be really hard to cover it
up well sort of to push back on that if
you just look at Iran I would draw a
different so I agree with you mostly but
I would also draw a different
distinction when the atrocities
happening to
your own people versus there's a war
Ukraine is a sovereign independent
nation there's now a war between two
Nations it feels like it's easier for
journalists to somehow reveal the truth
in that when the atrocity is happening
within the Soviet Union for some reason
that's easier to hide that's easier for
journalists to deceive themselves and
easier for the authoritarian leader to
hide them I think that's I agree with
you and so that's that's the dark I mean
that's why people maybe maybe you can
educate me on this but this is why I
think
people don't talk about
um holiday more and other atrocities the
the Great Leap Forward because it's
inside the country yeah versus the
Holocaust that's part of a war
why why is that that we uh
there were two almost like uh afraid too
polite to what is it that we don't want
to cover the atrocities because inside
the country like it's their business so
we don't want to touch it what is it I
think it's that what we refer to as the
news is in the business of selling
narratives right and The Narrative of
the Holocaust is a very powerful one
which is if you let hatred of a subgroup
in a population get out of control this
is the ultimate consequence and this is
something that we all have to be scared
of and do everything in our power to
avoid in the future for any outgroup
whereas what's The Narrative of the
holiday more sometimes governments kill
their own citizens there's nothing you
could do about it there's nothing we I
mean they wouldn't have let us send food
they wouldn't acknowledge like the
newspapers even even Russia weren't
acknowledging it like what's this like
this is some of the issues I had with
regard to trying to advocate for the
North Korean people the reporters be
like well what can I do as an American
it's a very natural question and I'm
like I don't know I I like all I know is
how to speak to what is happening but in
terms of next steps I don't have a good
answer for you so that is where the news
kind of does break down if there isn't a
story or a call to action the kind of
you're kind of almost like having a
movie with a cliffhanger and there's no
sequel It's like what am I supposed to
do here like this is not scratching that
itch which for me what as a consumer of
news you know Layman is like okay here's
the story there was a bad guy and the
cop shot him or they took him to jail
and now the bad guy's caught beginning
middle end here it's just like Mao did
this a lot of people were executed and
starved isn't that awful well and Mao's
still in power now Richard Nixon is
raising a toast to him like that story
is just like how am I supposed to feel
about this
yeah it feels like when there's tanks
and there's war and there's military
conflict then um it's more actionable
you can cover it yeah and uh it did seem
like Nazi Germany I don't know if
Holocaust was the thing that made it
most coverable I think it was that this
is a threat to the entire
so yeah they were a war with them yeah
this is that's what makes it coverable
and if the Holocaust was happening just
inside that country inside of Germany
or even if it didn't expand Beyond
Poland
yeah it would be like a footnote it
wasn't many ways a footnote like many of
the early steps toward it was like they
didn't cover it's just like all right
they're they're being oppressive toward
their own people okay especially given
some of the
uh maybe if you negotiate certain peace
treaties with the Soviet Union and which
are like you're too uh the basic the
pacifist imperative
oh boy
sorry Santa
so we say every time you uh masturbate
no after you're done you know I'm sorry
all right all right
now see I hate it when you don't yes and
because it leaves me in a hole I dug for
myself
um and I sit there in a hole is this
in my sadness
how long have you been writing this book
I mean two years mentally it was like
two years since you spent with the time
with it what um
no almost three two and a half yeah
and I I suppose it stages you much
longer like you said your family
so it in many ways this is a book you've
been writing your whole life I think
that's fair that all my work's been
leading to this yeah
it's certainly the most in my opinion
the most important thing I've done
what stands out to you uh about holiday
more what moments what what aspects of
human nature stand out to you
I don't know I think that story is I
don't want to say story but I mean like
that incident
is
I I mean I was familiar with it before
you know what I mean so I kind of knew
about it you know in part thanks to kind
of the North Korean work and coming from
Ukraine
um the thing that was also kind of
insane about it is that they were taking
all this grain and not using it even to
feed the Russian people they were
selling it for export for hard currency
um
yeah I I think what the takeaway there
and I think again this is something
westerners and especially Americans
don't appreciate they think that evil
often has
like a logic to it right and it's like
why would like because it makes no sense
to them like why would they kill their
own people
uh therefore it probably didn't happen
right there that there's that thing they
they really think like okay they can
understand you know country a country
Congress country B and because Slaughter
is a bunch of people country b as a
means of Conquest like that kind of
makes sense them they know that thing
but like why are you starving all these
people like what are you gaining out of
it that doesn't make sense to them and
because it doesn't make sense there's
kind of like well it's probably more the
story that I'm hearing and a lot of
times there's not it's just like evil
for the sake of power
um and we don't really have that
certainly anywhere near that scale and
never have
um certainly you know since since
America uh has been a thing I mean it's
it's it's and the fact that this is like
the 30s you know what I mean this isn't
that long ago
uh but I think also the the narrative in
some ways is
how
you know technology is also something
that kind of people have mixed feelings
about I think like I've said this before
and this is something I really believe
very strongly the ability of information
to be captured and spread easily is such
an effective tool in exposing uh
Humanity at its worst because that it's
one thing if I sit here and tell you
what I saw in these Villages it's
another thing that I sat you down and
showed you a YouTube and you know you
and I don't know what it's like to look
in the eyes of someone who's uh thinking
about kill eating their own kids I mean
and you see that face and you know it's
you know not something some CGI it it
will haunt you forever
just looking at the different mechanisms
that made all of this happen so this is
not just one guy Stalin having a policy
there's a whole system
I mean one of it is just a system of
fear
but how do you implement that system of
fear
well there's a giant bureaucracy of fear
yeah so what he implemented with the
great terror is that's in the in the 30s
in the late 30s well it's throughout the
30s but yeah like it starts in the um
mid to late 30s basically you know
communism was based on the common good
and the public good and anything private
which was Bourgeois was a problem when
they were started you know when the
revolution came the October Revolution
they wanted to recreate Society entirely
and that included like okay let's make
it so
um uh uh everyone eats in like
cafeterias so they're eating by
themselves let's design buildings so
everyone has to share bathrooms like
their whole plan was to have eliminate
any kind of concept of privacy at all
they also had this bizarre kind of
radical idea of uh like attacking shame
so many of these you know before the
1917 people were also very involved like
free love uh because the idea of like
having this private bond between your
husband and wife was also Bourgeois and
old-fashioned and you know we're the
Society of the future that changed
relatively quickly but they were talking
about things like raising kids
communally uh and and so on and so forth
so for Stalin
if you and I are friends
we have a bond that's a threat to him
the family's a threat the any kind of
organization is a threat because it's a
power center that is uh not between a
relationship between you and him now do
you have relationship with somebody else
so he systemically
went through that whole society and you
know it became you there's certain
things that became a crime then it
became a crime to be a spouse of the
enemy of the people now right away I as
a child become an orphan because my dad
was the name of the people my mom is
married to any of the people
now I don't have parents they get
arrested or executed or whatever but now
I know where to go but I can't go to my
friend's house because their family
doesn't want to take in a child of the
enemy of the people
um you had this culture where everyone
was very much encouraged to turn people
in and if you turn if you're arrested
you know and tortured you're like okay
who are your accomplices and now you
just gotta name names people you knew
and then it becomes this whole chain and
it's like how am I going to protest my
innocence if Lex just said you know I uh
worked with Michael and we were working
with trotskits and we were plotting to
overthrow Stalin let's testify to this
he signed a confession what am I
supposed to do now right so it worked
its way in a most viral fashion through
the whole society there was this amazing
moment where these poor people peasants
because obviously the powerless are
often going to be caught in the web
they're going to jail for being
trotskyites and they had to ask
themselves what's a tractorist like they
didn't even know who Trotsky was uh and
the thing other thing is ethnicity was a
problem right if you were an ethnicity
you have more power with other members
of that ethnicity than you have with
this kind of broader Soviet culture so
he would just Deport entire populations
from their ancestral lands to other
parts a to spread the population around
but also to break that link between the
peoples and their lands there was this
1937 nkvd order against Polish people
where it's just like if you had come
from Poland or had uh just this whole
list and basically people were being
arrested because they had uh polish last
names and I think it was a million
people were killed like some
astronomical number
um so there was this anything that was a
bond was a threat to him and it went
systemically so after he had all these
kind of executions of people who were
like Lenin's people the old Bolsheviks
then he went after he started arresting
the secret police you know he arrested
all the cops he arrested all the judges
and all these prisoners got to see the
judges who yelled at them for being
counter-revolutionaries and spies now
they were in the jails if you were a
foreigner if there was a huge push from
the Soviet Union toward African
Americans right because they're like
look you were living in a racist country
here we have no
um
uh racial inequality come come live here
A bunch of them went and they were all
vanished you know anyone who knew
information about the outside world if
you're a foreigner
um uh Andre uh Babel I forget his first
name he had a French writer he was
friends with he was arrested in shock
because he's a spy because you're
friends with Melrose and that means if
you know Foreigner you're a spy speaking
Esperanto became a crime having a pen
pal literally anything that was some
kind of chain between yourself and
someone else was a threat and was
grounds for arrest it was uh the
Russians would joke
about how relieved they would be if
someone knocked on your door in the
middle of the night to tell your house
was on fire because it wasn't the nkvd
coming to arrest you and of course most
of the accusations probably were
completely false so not only could you
not do all of those things
you
were also a victim of just being late to
work became a felony and also not doing
your job became a felony because now
you're taking the food or product away
from the people and you're supposed to
be there working for the people there's
this one story which you know I I was
doing the audiobook and this is like I
still try and get through without crying
this was 1920. they were a bunch of kids
in Moscow who were pickpockets aged
between ages 11 and 15. they rounded
them up and they're like all right point
out your accomplices and they would take
them in the trams and you have to point
out people then they would take them
back to the this the seller beat the
crap out of these children and then they
take them out again and if they didn't
point out to anybody they'd beat them
they're like all right so they just
start pointing at random yeah and the
thing that was really sick about this
story if that wasn't sick enough is that
the screams that the other criminals the
adult hardened criminals had to hear
from these children as they realized
they were being taken back to the to the
seller it was just horrifying
and they so they tortured people they
tortured confessions out of people yes
at scale oh yeah I mean
and the dark aspect of this is it's all
it's like this weird it's it's a
bureaucracy of torture yes so like it's
not like there's
what is it the torturer is afraid of
like does it so that he doesn't become
the prisoner right because then it's
like oh you couldn't get a confession
out of him are you an enemy of the
people now as well and the thing that
was even crazier is that a lot of these
interrogators were frustrated because
they're like look we both know you're
innocent just sign this confession and
make my life easier they knew it was
crap Stalin joked about Stalin joked
about this this is one of his little
jokes there was a kid uh who was
arrested and he was said oh it was
forced to say you wrote Eugene o'negan
which is a play he goes that play was by
Pushkin and they tortured him they
tortured him tortured him and then his
parents are walking down the street and
they run into a secret police and they
go congratulations and they go for what
you go your son wrote Eugenia Negan like
he admitted to it last night like it's
just like they could get you to say
anything and what else was really really
sick which they understood is it they
lower the death penalty for kids I think
either 14 or 12 if I remember the top of
my head and what Stalin's head of the
secret police did is when you were
interrogating someone they would you
either had to have some of your family
member of that family members
um possessions on the desk or a copy of
the decree that's saying you know that
that they can go after your family and
the amount of people who would confess
to anything when they saw their family
was in danger and they knew this wasn't
a bluff uh uh was astronomical and then
it becomes a chain because if you
confess and I have your confession how
hard is it to get your neighbor
what do you make of the uh for time for
most of the time the nkvt was about the
head of uh and KVD
ente pavlovovich Beria now barrier yeah
I have a I have a death warrant signed
by him hanging in my kitchen that I uh
um acquired
um he was one of the most evil people
who ever lived
uh the thing that Americans don't
appreciate is how clever some of this
sadism
is so there was one uh actress I think
he took her back to his house and he
asked her to he tried to get her to
sleep with him then he promised her that
if she did her father and either her
husband or her grandfather and which one
it was it's going to be released from
jail well they're already dead at that
point he had them executed
um they're still finding the bodies of
the women he murdered uh in the grounds
of his Dutch it's an embassy now and the
thing is stalinu because at one point
Stalin there's a picture of Stalin's
daughter in his lap you know and she was
at his house one day and Stalin calls up
he goes get out of there immediately so
he like a good bureaucrat he had a he
kept the list of all of his sexual
partners it's still uh um sealed but
both him and his bodyguard had this list
so just to clarify yeah he headed the
operation that did this whole giant
mechanism of forced confessions yes he
was part of expanding the gulag so he
was in the head of the Glocks but he was
part of this giant and his famous quote
was show me the man and I'll show you
the crime yeah
but on top of that what you're
describing is he was also related or not
was also just a mass rapist yes and
there's some dispute by whether he went
after kids with his rapes but there's
plenty of adults women that were uh
targets for this there was also another
little joke about him about how Stalin
is looking for his pipe and he can't
find didn't he calls barrier and he's
like okay I can't find this pipe and in
the afternoon he calls Barry again he's
like oh I found the pipe he goes but but
comrade Stalin we've got four people to
confess to stealth already so you have
to laugh but then you think about the
nature of how it operates it well also
the fact that this kind of person was
allowed to run
I mean I I suppose
um it's all different kinds of evil and
rape was just a part of the story
his own personal
um willingness to uh
oversee torture and commit torture
himself
and rape but it's also what happens when
you're in a country where it has no
rights of any kind
and by the way I should mention that
people should get your book and audio
what is your audiobook coming up it's in
a couple weeks so I'll be out shortly
yeah uh you gave me the great honor of
uh voicing this man that's for the promo
yeah for the promo yeah excellent I
appreciate that
for a moment I actually
it was really difficult really yeah it
was just a sentence I understand I
understand
uh because it takes you to that place oh
yeah because he told her scream if you
want doesn't matter yeah and he was
right like that's the thing he wasn't
bluffing he could scream these women
could scream their head off no one's
gonna come help him he would drive
around Moscow at night in his limo
looking for victims but somehow me
saying those words was tough I'm sure is
uh stuff
because this is where we came from do
you know what I mean this isn't just
like some kind of uh Tolkien villain
but it also was tough because I could
see myself being somewhere in that
machine somewhere like somehow that put
me right there
like
any like they're
any Cog in that machine is committing
evil yes
that's the dark thing
um
I think the the hot the the higher you
are to the top the closer you are to the
top the more
ability you have to stop it
but the less the more freedom you have
to stop it I suppose
um to a point yeah
but like the little things
so barrier had the freedom to commit
rape
or not to
and so he chooses to
sort of increase the amount of evil he's
putting out into the world but then you
have to counterbalance that as as dark
as this calculus is after Stalin dies
like that week they start making the
gulag shrink they start pulling back on
the concentrate the labor camps
so I mean
so that is a big Plus in his side like
you start liberating having this Mass
amnesty and freeing people from uh work
camps that that's not minor things so
it's crazy like it's like I I'm not I'm
not saying Peter right I don't I I don't
know I'm not saying he's a good person
but it's kind of insane that someone can
do things that everyone listening to
this would regard as pure evil and at
the same time this guy also when the
time came saved
tens of thousands of lives so in some
sense Stalin is the kind of cancer that
permeates all yes all the Soviet minds
and once it's gone you almost like wake
up wait a minute
what the fuck was I a part of and
Khrushchev in it was a 56 when he gave a
secret speech uh you know behind closed
doors and he's just like all this
criticism of Stalin was true this is
complete I want marxistence you know he
tried to salvage the system this is not
what Marxist is about we can't have a
personality cult uh you know Stalin
killed all these top generals and when
Hitler turned to betrayed The Pact and
invaded Stalin didn't believe his buddy
Hitler was going to do this and as a
result of this we lost a lot of
territory in lives this is not a
military genius this was Stalin being an
idiot or an a moron whatever you
whatever term we want to be so you know
yeah there but the thing is Khrushchev
also was a butcher you know he had a lot
of blood in his hands you don't become
you know the textile seat without having
overlooked a lot of uh murder and Chaos
so
it's such a um that's why it's called
subtitled books the tale of Good and
Evil there's so much malevolence to go
around
what do you think was going through
Stalin's mind in the 20s and the 30s
like
did he directly
like allow himself to acknowledge the
reality
of the suffering he was causing like
what does it take to be that human I I'm
almost interested
to extract lessons from that for leaders
of today
like how hard is it is it that Stalin is
evil or can you just delude yourself
gradually into where you don't have a
sense of the effect of your policies in
the populace well you're not deluding
yourself because you have around you an
entire government of people telling you
24 7 how great you are how thankful they
are for you how awesome you are you're
the best uh so that certainly going to
play into it I've asked myself that
question as well like do these people
believe their own bullshit and I just
and I think the receipts are uh when
Elena chachescu who's one of the four
women on the cover when she's being
taken away to be executed in 1989 she's
yelling at the soldiers how could you I
raised you like a mother so she at least
believed her own bullshit
um
with Stalin he was obviously extremely
intelligent uh I think it's kind of easy
for us to kind of psychologize and say
he's a sociopath he's a narcissist he's
this he's that
um but at this at a certain point like
if you're surrounded by a culture
dedicated to glorifying you and everyone
you meet is so happy to see you and oh
my God all your pronouncements are so
good and it you know what if some if you
make a decision that's wrong the people
around you it's their job to tell you
why it's not your fault it's the fault
of the Wreckers or it's the fault of you
know Hitler or whoever it is the kulaks
at a certain point the human mind wants
to believe how great it is
especially someone in that vaunted
position
but he had his love there was this one
funny I'm using the word Loosely quote
when Hitler invades Russia and he
couldn't believe it and he's just
missing an action for days because how
could Hitler betray me we had to deal
birds of a feather and he had this quote
about like we've taken Lennon's Legacy
and shitted out our asses I think he was
very aware that that's no question that
he was aware that in terms of being a
philosopher or a thinker he wasn't on
Lenin's level right so that was I'm sure
played a lot into his psychology
that he never quite lived up to the like
everything he tried I mean there's some
sense that the collectivization
that this idea was a failure
the way he responds to the economic
policy being a failure is to lean in
and basically torture anyone who says
it's a failure and double down on the
policy
like that says something about it but it
wasn't a failure it broke the ukrainians
you don't think he believed early on
that's what it turned into but you don't
think in the very early days
there was a thought that
collectivization is the right mechanism
by which to
um enact communism I think his goal was
to break their spirit
and getting them fed was secondary right
and given the fact that they stopped
complaining because they're dead
he got what he wanted
he got a compliant population
I mean that's really interesting I
didn't
I wonder how much disagreement there is
about
because if that was the goal from the
beginning that's a different level of
evil I think that was clearly so his hit
what like I said earlier he broke with
Landon because he wanted socialism in
one country right that was his vision
right and he was also very aware that
what became the Soviet Union was
extremely diverse versus gigantic
country is the big country on Earth it's
not always gigantic you had all these
peoples these nationalities within it
that have had historical anemone and
they're not they're not gonna have
loyalty to Moscow he's a Georgian
himself this was always a big problem so
that was what he wanted to do as well is
to homogenize and have them be
standardized and I don't see how you do
that without either massive re-education
which is only going to go so far or
really just crushing people's spirits
so uh like a forced
homogeneity yeah
and the other big thing a big element of
Soviet culture and the Soviet mythology
I mean he called his name was uh his
name to style and I can't even
pronounced his George name jokes really
or something like that it means Man of
Steel so a large part of the and this
still remains in in Russian culture to
this day I see in my family too and like
other Russians I know there is this
pride in ruthlessness and this kind of
like I'm so tough like nothing's gonna
affect me like yeah we're gonna suffer
but it's for a greater good or for the
long term and not to be kind of
sentimental or squeamish about things
like that was a big part of it don't
take that away from me too Michael what
are you taking everything am I wrong
I admire uh not not stoicism but that
kind of hardness uh I look forward to
myself it has nothing to do with Stalin
but not to the extent that like if some
like for example like if you see
um someone suffering oh yeah and and
that's being used as a mechanism to get
you to change your opinion you're like
they're not gonna get to me like that is
very much part of that Russian
psychology right
uh at least at that time yes I think
still largely no
I'm not going to be manipulated by
someone else is suffering a weakness
that kind of thing I think that's really
part of it to this day
I don't know I don't know how much of
his character how much of it is reality
sure sure
um
I remember I knew that I knew as someone
who was him and his fiance were Russian
and they had this big fight she took off
the ring right and she's like you know
he's like that's it and it's just like
the way he told the story to me she's
like what do you want me to say oh don't
leave me baby I can't live without you
like that nasty cruelty I don't know man
I know I know you're so I I don't know
if there's a Russian thing that's just
that's just a people thing I don't think
that's an American thing
I think there's all kinds of flavors and
they're different by region of the way
that people are cruel to each other sure
that in America New Jersey is different
than Texas is different than California
you don't think Americans are higher
trust more kind Society than Russia even
today
the higher trust uh listen I'm not going
to so first of all I have a very complex
uh
feelings about Russia today I'm talking
about let's talk about January before
the war I'm talking about nowadays
I think it's a complex psychological
Dynamic of what trusting means I think
Russians are generally less friendly but
have more intimate
uh friendships yes I think that's true
so it's just a different it's not
different it's just one is more trusting
which is more trusted Americans
but then this would Define trusting
different because okay I'll give you an
example if someone's having a party in
America and people come over yeah okay
that's fine everyone's welcome if it's
in Russia it's like who who's that who'd
you bring and there's much more of a
like let me be sure that's okay this
person's here I maybe this there you
don't have parties I have never been in
a party and you don't come to mind
foreign
and I just lay on the ground instead and
feel sorry for myself it's not bad santa
it's sad Santa
well I can serve I can serve my
emotional energy towards this one day of
the year okay
intensely spread my joy
all right speaking of which you tell a
Christmas story in the book
are you spoiling that chapter it's
called die hard all right well I'm not
gonna spoil it it's really good I I was
very proud of that chapter why
because the ending that's the Christmas
story is just like I know everyone
reading is gonna go Google it'd be like
he can't he can't be real but it was
real because then it was on Christmas
yesterday
um I mean that this has to do with the
bigger picture we don't have to uh do
the big reveal but the bigger picture of
there there was an iron curtain and it
was coming down in complex ways
how would you define the Iron Curtain
there's a there's this a set of
ideologies a set of countries United by
an ideology and a set of countries you
know by a different ideology
and um
there's a curtain that divided them and
it eventually came down so how would you
describe how it came down
it came I I hate that I can never
remember ever ever remember if this was
Hemingway
uh no it was Hemingway is Mark Twain no
it came down two ways gradually then
suddenly
um
the thing with the Iron Curtain in the
Warsaw Pact these were a bunch of
nations with you know run under
communism but they were all almost all
under this way of Moscow so if they were
going to make big changes Moscow had to
uh prove it it was in 19 in the early in
the 50s we're in Hungary uh decided to
Rebel or not liberalize and they even
they were thinking of leaving the Warsaw
Pact and the Russians send in the tanks
and you had the development of what was
called the bridge Doctrine which was the
idea that it is the duty of all the
Warsaw Pac Nations if another country
tries to and this was also in 68 in the
Prague spring in Czechoslovakia if a
nation wants to leave uh socialism it is
uncommon of those socialist Nations to
to do whatever is necessary to make sure
there isn't a counter Revolution so they
were
very much under moscow's thumb
um and one of the big ways it changed
was one man and that was Mikhail
Gorbachev and he was the first Russian
leader to be born after the October
Revolution he grew up and his
grandfather was arrested for being a
trotskyite and the other one you know
was arrested for this or that he saw his
village starve as a result of Stalin so
even though he was a very committed
communist he also was very an
increasingly skeptical of
authoritarianism
and you know in Poland for example you
had the solidarity movement
um and this was a labor union movement
and the government didn't know what to
do they were getting a lot of support
from the peoples they had strikes that
um the dance Shipyard was was when them
started and basically Moscow told them
either you crack down or we're cracking
down on you
and they're like all right and they
declared martial law and they you know
arrested leaders put them away but then
when Gorbachev you know was in charge
there wasn't a gun to their back and it
was the Communist leaders themselves who
were like you know what there's this
really funny moment where
um like for Less is meeting with
Margaret Thatcher and she's he's telling
her what solidarity the movement wants
and she had been meeting with the Polish
government as well and she's like look
like
tell them like what because they they
had you tried they they wanted the
government wanted her to tell them that
we want to negotiate and work things out
she goes all right tell the government
what it is that you're asking for and he
just points to the ceiling she goes he's
like oh yeah our meetings are bugged
anyway
um but they then had the freedom because
they knew that Gorbachev wasn't forcing
them to drive solidarity underground so
they had the idea of like let's work
together with these people and as a
result of this you know Poland
liberalized and freed itself uh um
fairly easily and with a minimum of
Bloodshed in 89 and it there was this
whole argument for the Vietnam war with
something called Domino Theory which is
if you lose Vietnam then you're going to
lose Laos then you lose Cambodia one by
one the countries are going to turn
Communists like dominoes but people
didn't realize the reverse was true
because after Poland liberalized then
you have you know a Hungary then you
have you know Czechoslovakia then you
know that you had East Germany and the
fall of the Berlin Wall so it's a great
right thing because as this is happening
the people are looking around and
they're like wait like that's that's
that's it like this has got to be a
trick and it wasn't a trick so one of my
favorite books which was a big
inspiration for this one was by my
favorite historian I apologize to Victor
Patricia David Patricia and Arthur
Herman my second and third uh they're
tied but uh Victor Sebastian wrote a
book called Revolution uh 1989 and he
just talked about that year and how all
these countries one after another
liberalized and it's just such a beaut
and none of them thought this was
possible my one my favorite favorite
moments in this book
is helmet Cole who was the head of West
Germany is in Warsaw with like valessa
uh discussing the Berlin wall and like
Willis is like I don't think it's gonna
be around for like another you know few
years and and whole Nicole laughs in his
face
and he goes look you're young this isn't
how things work like this is gonna take
some doing it fell the next day and Hell
Nicole literally says I'm at the wrong
party and he got on a plane and got out
of Warsaw so there are why this book has
a broader message than the actual
stories of these incidents is that as
these wonderful things are happening the
universal consensus at the time is it's
never going to happen or if it does have
gonna happen it's gonna happen only
through an enormous amount of Carnage
and blood and when it doesn't then
everyone's like oh it was inevitable you
didn't say it was inevitable at the time
you only said it was inevitable after
the fact and the other thing that I was
really brought me a lot of joy is there
are so many moments of men with guns
saying we're not shooting anyone because
they wanted
several Tiananmen squares they wanted it
in you know East Berlin uh they wanted
it in Romania they wanted in Moscow and
these strong tough trained men with guns
were like no we're not shooting the
civilians and then everything else was
history
yeah just as surprising as the mass
violence committed by uh like police and
the Army on its own citizenry equally
surprising is when they choose not to
yeah somehow yeah
and what is that what um how do you
explain uh 1989 how do you explain this
progress
that happened so suddenly
how do you explain that in the at the
beginning of the 20th century
so much Revolution happened that created
communism
and how do you explain then the collapse
of that across So Many Nations at the
same time I think a large part of it had
to do with the closer
um interconnections between people like
Gorbachev and Thatcher and Gorbachev and
Reagan because both of them visited red
square and you know in the years before
these are these are enemies you know
they want to invade they want to kill us
the Americans thought this about the
Russians the Russians thought this about
the Americans obviously not so much the
British and
they got on really well uh when
Gorbachev came to Checkers which is the
prime minister's uh Countryside estate
uh Thatcher sat him down and she's
lecturing him about human rights and
she's lecturing about economics and
she's lecturing about this and that and
then she's lecturing him about why he's
in eating while he's yelling at her and
he goes Mrs Thatcher like I know you
have a lot of strong opinions
I do too I haven't been sent here to
recruit you to the Communist party and
she just started laughing but right away
there was such a sense in the air of we
can do better we're spending all this
money on missiles we're spending all
this money on the military it's
expensive and for what uh we don't have
to be looking at each other as enemies
we can try to work together to kind of
at the very least lower the the the the
volume and the the heat how much credit
do you give to Gorbachev the man so
meaning how much power does a single
individual have I I could not give him
more credit uh I had a tweet last year
where I said who do you think is the
greatest person alive right now and my
answer by far would be Gorbachev then he
died I don't know who it is right now
but it's just funny because Gorbachev
also had a tweet
but it was it was like and he said oh
sure
um that would be a good now I wish I
interviewed Gorbachev and asked them the
the famous question of what would you
like best about uh Michael Mouse look
the transition after the Soviet Union
fell to Russia and Yeltsin was not a
smooth one by any means uh you know as I
say at the end of the book it's not like
they lived happily ever after yeah uh
but my point broader point is you take
the wins when you can get them uh people
now had access to passports they don't
have to have uh they can leave the
country they have food they have access
to information it's somewhat censored
but it's certainly nothing like it was
uh under the Soviet Union
um and they didn't have to live in this
kind of
constant fear and they had opportunities
and it's such a step forward uh um and
there was this one great moment and I'm
good there's a super Boris Yeltsin
became president of Russia he's also
mayor of Moscow at one point or the
equivalent of Mayor
and he came here to visit NASA on in the
in the capacity of one of the other and
while he was there he went to visit a
supermarket it was a Randall's then I
think it's a food town now it still
exists I'm gonna go there I'm gonna
start bawling
and as he's looking around like he had
never seen so much food and this is food
that like even wealthy people in Russia
don't have access to and there's
pictures of him just like this like what
and the scene that really was poignant
to me is on his flight back he's sitting
there on the plane like this
and he's like they had to lie to the
people because if they knew they
wouldn't have been able to get away with
it and that's the moment where it's just
like oh this wasn't like skewed
propaganda you know this was like they
knew and it was a lie from A to Z and he
was just like holy crap just like and
you can just imagine him on that plane
his brain reprogramming because if
you're taught since you're a kid and he
was no he was an older man he was no
dummy you think okay the Americans are
starving and poor and they're lynching
people every day and then you go to a
supermarket the most banal place on
Earth and you see like I think when the
article said like they couldn't believe
how big the onions were or something
like that and you're seeing this and
you're seeing these like janitorial
School teachers these aren't dignitaries
and they're regular people just picking
whatever they want and you're just like
like you you it's like the equivalent of
having a stroke
yeah I do think that that's one of the
most powerful things is the grocery the
grocery store is that guy in terms of
drawing a distinction between the two
systems yeah because uh you know you
could have like technology you can show
off technology and so on but you can
kind of sign up write-off Technologies
like okay that's the mechanism
uh of the devil but when you look at
just
uh
fruit and veggies and like very big
fruit and veggies and like yeah and
fruit in particular like certain kinds
of fruit that are just not available in
Russia
I mean it's yeah that really shows wait
a minute
it's uh interesting like when you're
older and you have to face the reality
that uh what you believe to be true that
your whole life has been based on a set
of lies and your stuff not not mistakes
not like a little bit like blatant lies
from top to bottom start to finish that
I don't know what that's like
how much uh you've um you start the book
I think you start the book with Iran yes
yes yes
as one does
so before the Revolution she was born in
in in Russia and she witnessed the
revolution
uh and moved uh to the United States in
the 20s 26th 1926 yeah 1926. I remember
like it was yesterday anyway uh she uh
you write that she spent a lot of her
life trying to convince Americans in the
world that uh um
the negative effects of totalitarian
government just you know maybe using her
as an example but also this question can
we draw a distinction between
authoritarian regimes and communism is
it possible to steal man the case that
not all implementations of socialism and
communism would lead to the atrocities
we've seen in the Soviet Union and uh in
China under Mao oh like when you in
studying all of this how much blame do
you put on the ideologies on the Marxist
ideologies versus the particular leaders
and dictators well you have to blame the
leaders a lot because they had different
leaders in different countries where
uh different from each other Duke who
took over Czechoslovakia and he tried to
introduce socialism with the human face
in the Prague spring of 1968. he was
like all right we got to do away with
this authoritarianism we gotta have more
free speech he was thinking of
introducing elements of democracy now
then the Russians sent in the tanks but
the point is he certainly was someone
who was like all right this this has got
to stop this is just absolutely crazy
um Khrushchev and Stalin were not the
same animal at all
um so I I think the problem with uh
communism in in the Marxist sense is
that you're going to have an introduced
an element of authoritarianism simply
because you can't have
um economic planning if I don't have a
price mechanism I don't know how price
is what is me knowing as a consumer or a
producer what should be produced or what
had there's a shortage of as prices
increase that's a signal that we have a
shortage here as prices decrease that
means that there's a surplus here but if
I'm setting the price I don't really
have know how much weed I need to
produce if I'm compared to Corn as
compared to shoes as compared to Santa
costumes so that is a big problem the
other issue is if you have one agency
the government having a monopoly on
let's suppose the news like you were
talking about earlier with Twitter it's
going to be really hard to have any kind
of objective discourse because everyone
is going to be working for the same
organization that is going to cause a
problem in terms of having a feedback
mechanism even in the best scenario in
terms of this is a problem this isn't a
problem and when you have a monopoly
which is what a government is I think
people are very familiar with what the
problems happen with Monopoly this lack
of accountability bureaucracies are
faceless and then no one's to blame but
you know uh and yet everyone kind of
suffers as a consequence so it doesn't
necessarily have to be as authoritarian
as stalinism but you can't have have it
a government which is Authority by its
nature be this pervasive
without a strong amount of of Oppression
and same thing with even if you just
have like let's go socialized Healthcare
you're going to have to make it illegal
for doctors to practice privately you're
going to have to have rationing so on
and so forth now that might be a price
that people are willing to pay because
you can't have infinite spending on
health care right so something's gonna
have to give somewhere so there is an
element of authoritarianism there and
people are comfortable with that and I
can wrap my head around it but if you're
going to have one organization running
literally everything in society I don't
see how you do that and have any measure
of liberalism
why do you think Iran Rand had so much
trouble
telling people the danger of
Soviet stalinism
well I I think uh
more pertinent question is why did Emma
Goldman and Alexander Berkman have so
much problems so they were hardcore
these are anarchists yeah they're Emma
Golden's on the cover they were deported
um from the U.S J Edgar Hoover saw them
off at Ellis Island they were sent to
Russia they were bloodthirsty
revolutionaries they had no shortage
advocating violence when necessary and
when they went there they were just like
this is a complete nightmare they both
individually had meetings with Lenin
complaining about political prisoners
complaining about lack of free speech
she told them you know this is a
revolutionary time you could do that
later and when they both left they she
wrote her Memoir was split into two
books my disillusionment in Russia and
my first dissolution in Russia uh he
wrote the Bolshevik myth and she was in
England and she gave a speech and she's
just like if you guys think this is for
the workers this is the biggest lie I've
ever heard like they're oppressing the
workers like no capitalist has ever
imagined and you know as she described
it like people were just shifting their
sheep seats they're interrupting her and
she when she opened her talk she had a
standing ovation and when she was done
you could hear a pin drop so they didn't
want to hear it because this was this
kind of and Eugene lines talks about it
later this was like the guinea pig
theory of the Russian people like we're
gonna experiment on them over there
if it works great we're right if it's
wrong it's their problem and sure these
animals squeal but they're beneath us
and of course they're going to make some
noise but you know this is a noble
experiment but they're experimenting on
a country several countries
um so I think an ideology like this
which appeals to intellectuals because
you know if it works or if it's
implemented they're the ones who are
gods in effect in a society like their
status cannot be higher they really want
this to work like they want a society
where they are the new aristocracy that
the most important people uh and their
criticisms of America if they had a
binary worldview if America is bad and
this is the opposite of America then by
definition it's good and the the other
binary that they bought into is you know
the Nazis and the uh the fascists hate
the Communists and the Communists it's
true uh to up to a point hated the
fascists and the Nazis okay well Hitler
is evil so this guy's against Hitler
we're with him so that's an argument
that's still made in in you know schools
growing up when you talk about World War
II where they're like Latino with Stalin
and they don't really talk about Stalin
being a bad guy but it's like you know
we worked with him to fight Hitler
because Hitler was a unique evil now
that is certainly true that Hitler's
unique evil but that doesn't mean or
even imply that Stalin is somehow uh an
angel or a saint
do you think some of the lessons of
History are forgotten here in our in in
our modern political discourse that are
important to remember I was so triggered
because I was in the supermarket and
there was like a company that's selling
Russian Ice Cream because it meets these
high-level Soviet standards and I'm just
like you think this is some kind of joke
you think this is some kind of kitschy
punch line that you had Decades of
people who were taught in school to turn
their parents into the police if they
were hoarding grain even if it cost them
their own lives where it was a crime to
be married to someone who was an enemy
of the state where you had torture being
the norm where people were
institutionalized uh because they were
politically disadvantageous and they
were called insane like this isn't just
like like oh this hammering stickles
this cool wacky symbol like the amount
of blood under this symbol was just
enormous and and so yeah I think that
lesson has very much been forgotten how
did the ice cream taste it was fine okay
I'm a Baskin Robbins guy to be honest
but van lewins does some great work
basketball doesn't have any Soviet
flavors no
um those dark jokes dark dark jokes uh
I'm gonna I'm gonna self-publish a book
of jokes
um coming out
um in a grocery store near you okay uh
what was the hardest part about writing
this book spent two years writing it
so when I write books for celebrities
and I was co-authoring them I did it
kind of like method acting I tried to
get into their head as much as possible
to kind of speak in their voice
and when you're dealing with
children being tortured harmed starved
and you're trying to empathize with the
characters it's it's hard to take
um the other big part I had like I was
saying earlier is just I was just very
very concerned that I told this story
and did it justice because I think this
is something that is I I still don't
understand and I'm kind of angry about
it that it's fallen on me
to tell this story this isn't some minor
incident that happened some random town
and pick a state this is half the world
for you know 70 80 years and the fact
that it's this is the 80s this isn't we
were I mean you and I are old enough to
remember the 80s there's a show I
remember the 80s the fact that all these
things have just kind of we have this
Collective Amnesia
um and if not even Amnesia I think a lot
of this stuff even I like was not known
even at the time or was kind of obscured
uh this is I I remember I was at the
blaze which is a network run by Glenn
Beck and they're conservatives and I
have a lot of fun there and I'm just
sitting there and then you know
sometimes Dave you're off they're like
oh Biden's a communist I'm like okay
okay bite's the Communist but I'm like
we talk so much about you know slavery
in the Civil War the atrocities we talk
about World War II and the Holocaust I'm
like how is no one talking about this
and and this was can very easily be
portrayed as like conservatism's big
victory because Reagan and Thatcher were
so instrumental in in guiding this to a
safe landing and I'm like how is no one
telling the story and then one day my
brain is like you know you write books
for a living this is kind of your job
and I'm like all right but I I still
don't I still I gotta tell you I'm uh
kind of confused that
I'm the one who has to do this because
this should be they should be you know
there should be a 30 books like this
yeah and this is a model to follow yeah
and it's also
um
that is such recent history yeah
but it also kind of makes you realize
that there might be
other fights
for Progress going on right now oh the
world that we don't know about so you
wrote about North Korea I I don't know
to what degree there is could possibly
be fights there for progress
but there could be they could be uh
boiling up in China that could be
boiling up battles for progress in other
parts of the world
um Russia that could be
um and in America in America and these
are all different kind of battles of
progress and now
um
sometimes
sometimes I you know um
we somehow tend to criticize these
battles of progress like uh if it's on
the left we'll call it like wokism or
whatever and we pick extreme elements of
it and show how silly and ridiculous it
is not realizing it not acknowledging
that there's a a more civil battle going
on underneath for actual for for
respecting human dignity uh from all for
people for all walks of life and the
same we tend to call anybody who
questions mainstream narratives
conspiracy theories we dismiss them
immediately and they're ultimately
fighting for Progress so people who
criticize fallacy and everybody else I
don't know if they're I think they want
institutions that serve the public
they're fighting for Progress too and we
tend to dismiss them like each side
tends to caricature the other but the
battle for progress is happening and I
guess that's what your
um that's the hopeful message with the
white pill right is that there there's
progress being made somehow we're all
making progress here I think more the
hopeful message is that it's not
possible that we have to lose like if
someone tells you the straight face you
can't win the enemy is too impressive
and strong I'm like what are you talking
about we I mean look this was the Soviet
Union and it it happened you know
relatively quickly and and relatively uh
peacefully I mean again and it wasn't
because uh Hanukkah and East Germany was
like oh I'm just gonna I'm just gonna
vacate my seat he was like sending the
tanks and the military guy said no yeah
so they wanted blood there were plenty
of people who wanted blood and would
have been happy to have it so to you
uh the maybe if not to follow the Soviet
Union then the the fall of the Iron
Curtain
is is a great leap of progress in the
20th century I don't see how anyone can
argue against that point
with a straight face so that gives you
hope that that we that we Humanity were
able to do that
yes and at the same time we were told at
the time give it up be realistic it's
utopian to think this is going anywhere
maybe in a hundred years look there's a
recent checkup was on Star Trek because
the idea is even the far future you're
going to have America and you're going
to have the Soviet Union like this is
the reality it was called real politic
we're gonna have Dayton because it's you
know it's this permanent stalemate we
had the Vietnam War we got our asses
kicked Russia's not going anywhere
America's not going anywhere we got to
learn to live each other blah blah blah
and Reagan said you don't want to hear
my uh strategy for the Cold War some
people might say it's simple or even
simplistic here it is we win they lose
and the people who won were the Russian
people and the Ukrainian people and the
Lithuanian people and the Polish people
and the Romanian people especially and
the Hungarian people
um and and it's it's just just there's
so many moments of great joy uh that you
know just tears coming down my face
because you're you're go you're like in
Prague when dupchek who again who tried
to liberalize in 1968 and then when they
said in the tanks they deport him to
Slovakia somewhere to do some forestry
job like he appears in their big square
is just waving from the balcony like
this ghost uh from 20 years prior being
like look you know the spirit of 68 is
still alive here uh in Czechoslovakia
and it was like a matter of weeks the
entire government resigned and then they
liberalized it's just so many things
about just overnight uh just change for
the profound better
um and you know people are so
committed to making sure you don't have
hope and if things get better oh it
doesn't really matter because the
broader picture never gets better and
there's lots of data to the contrary
where that's happened before and this
isn't some magical Faraway place this is
the opposite of magical far away place
it's Eastern Europe
and to me I think one such narrative
that people assume will always be true
or just to a degree will always be true
like in American politics is the extreme
levels of division
and it seems to me like that too we can
overcome
uh so the the division in American
politics that seems to be
counterproductive I think that can be
overcome
and I think the the division in
geopolitics currently with Russia China
and the United States particularly uh
China and the United States can be
overcome
and I think that requires great
leadership
that that galvanizes the populace
uh to the better angels of their nature
like I have hope for that people have
become really cynical on social media
and elsewhere in the way they talk the
Liberals are destroying this country
the conservatives that destroying this
country this kind of language is
becoming more and more popular
um I think that's I hope that that's
temporary
at least that's that's my weight pill
I don't know if you have that kind of
hope for like what does Hope look like
for you in
American politics forget American
politics American the nation the country
the people
um
My Hope
uh
which I don't think is an unrealistic
one
is that
the Next Generation has a better life
than you and I have had in this country
and I think anyone who thinks
that America is over
or is one president away from being
destroyed
cannot in good conscience call
themselves a patriot because if you
think America is so weak that it takes a
Biden or a trump to irreva or an Obama
to erotically destroy it then it's
already a wrap
and I think that's just absolutely
ridiculous if you look what this country
has survived Great Depression World War
II the Civil War I mean my God so we've
been through worse before uh it wasn't
always easy certainly not but I am
I I it's so hard for me as someone who's
a hopeful person not by my nature I'm
not you know Michael kindness who does
work for random house or at least he
died last time I talked to him
I look at even like this the thing is
when you speak positively it sounds
corny that's how it screwed up our
cynical have you seen my Twitter
you're verified now
so that's good but even like something
like Etsy like you can go in Etsy I paid
eight dollars for that verification
I earned it it's an opportunity for
Independent Artists to create something
special and cool and I've bought a lot
of stuff from them that in and of itself
is something that's pretty awesome
there's so much I'm into shaving soaps
right of course you are the point is
there's like dozens of artisans
every day when you have a shave it
brings you uh um some Joy so there's
just so many things that are wonderful
and I know there's people listening to
this rolling their eyes how can you talk
about shaving soaps when my daughter or
when my wife or when blah blah blah and
I'm not disparaging or dismissing what
you're regarding as a problem my point
is Hope means the belief that it's not
at all a certainty that this problem
will be insurmountable that's all it
means
what do you look forward to in 2023
since this is a holiday special
honestly like if I I look forward to a
lot of young people
realizing that they still have lots of
opportunity in this country and taking
control of their own selves and
realizing they can be a better person
tomorrow than they are today that the
entirety of their identity is not a
function of a culture which may they may
not identify our government which they
might not identify with or like or think
is is deplorable and realize you know
what I have it in me to improve and find
joy and happiness and also that fact
that that is so compelling and
contagious that is what I would want in
uh 2023 and also for New York to get
nuked
so those two things could be
accomplished can I go back and switch
the order because I think New York won
oh the jokes the jokes and one day
friends if you uh if you work hard
enough in believing yourself you too can
nuke New York no you too can uh spend
your
days dressing up
grown men dressing up in a Santa outfit
and putting on lipstick and having hours
upon hours of conversation with each
other and loving every second thank you
for writing this really really important
book please buy the white pill I love
you brother I love you too
thanks for listening to this
conversation with Michael malice to
support this podcast please check out
our sponsors in the description and now
let me leave you some words from Shell
Silverstein
listen to the Muslims child listen to
the don'ts listen to the shouldn'ts The
Impossibles of the wants listen to The
Never haves then listen close to me
Anything Can Happen child anything can
be
thank you for listening I hope to see
you next time