Kind: captions
Language: en
so the BBC reached out and said we want
to interview you I said we've got this
idea we want to take you to a park and
have you meet one of the protesters
who's been wielding his gun outside your
mosque and talked to him
it was really interesting because they'd
interviewed him before meeting me and
the things that he was able to utter
before meeting me and before meeting
Syrian refugees
was just awful I mean the most
dehumanizing rhetoric that you can
imagine
but then at the park he meets me talks
to me he meets a Syrian refugee family
uh one of the girls whose leg had been
blown off in an airstrike
and he said I feel like an idiot I mean
he expressed all sorts of regret
and was teary-eyed
that he could dehumanize people the way
that he was and so my whole thing was
and is come inside the mosque put your
gun down
disarm yourself and learn
and you'll be surprised what you'll walk
away with
and only took one meeting with him to
completely
shift
his worldview at the time
which
was made up of heroes and villains the
Muslims unfortunately being the villains
that had to be wiped off the face of the
Earth so that the Earth could continue
the following is a conversation with
Imam Dr Omar Suleiman he's a Muslim
scholar civil rights leader founder and
president of the yakin institute for
Islamic Research and he is a professor
of Islamic Studies at Southern Methodist
University he's one of the most
influential Muslims in the world and is
a Fearless kind-hearted human being who
I'm now proud to call a friend
as a side note allow me to say a few
words about Israel and Palestine
while this conversation with Omar
Suleiman was mostly exploring the
history and beauty of Islam and the
Muslim Community we did delve briefly
into the topic of Israel and Palestine
this topic is an extremely challenging
one and an extremely important one
it is Deep Roots and implications in U.S
politics in global geopolitics in
Military and religious conflicts Wars
and atrocities and basic struggle of all
human beings to survive to protect their
loved ones and to flourish as
individuals and as communities
I did not want to cover this topic in a
solely scholarly fashion much like with
the war in Ukraine it is not simply a
story of History politics religion and
national identity it is also a deeply
human story
to cover this topic in the way that my
gut and my heart says to do it I have to
talk to everyone to leaders and people
on all sides Muslim and Jewish Israeli
and Palestinian from refugees to
soldiers from Scholars to extremists
I'm not sure if that's possible
or wise but like Forrest Gump said I'm
not a smart man and maybe you know how
the rest of that goes
I just like to follow my heart to
whatever place it leads
I ask the Muslim and the Jewish
communities for your patience and
support as they explore this topic I
will make many mistakes and I'll be
listening to all voices so I can learn
and do better
I've become distinctly aware that my
Approach of talking to people from all
walks of life with empathy and
compassion but with backbone can create
enemies on all sides
I don't quite yet understand why this is
but I'm learning to accept it as the
reality of the world
hopefully in the end whatever happens
whatever silly thing I do has a chance
of adding a bit of love to the world
thanks for going along with me on this
journey
this is the Lex figment podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Omar Solomon
we've been trying to do this a long time
it's uh the world tried to prevent it
through the the funny ways that the
world does but uh here we are I'm a huge
fan of yours it's a huge honor to talk
to you I appreciate it thank you for
making the sacrifice and coming down for
coming up I guess I appreciate it it's a
short flight but a long journey let's
start with the biggest question who is
God according to Islam
God is
the most compassionate the most merciful
the creator of the heavens and the Earth
he is one God
he begets not nor is he begotten he's
unique
he is omnipotent he is beyond the
limitations of man
he is beyond the constructs of our
imagination
but he is ever accessible through
sincere supplication
when you call upon him
alone
one God he is closer to you than your
jugular vein the Quran tells us
he's known by many names and attributes
but his Essence is one he's one God no
human likeness
no human imperfection can be attributed
to him no partners
no image of him can be constructed
and that is God so God represents he is
a feeling of closeness that is
accessible to every human being well
God's Not A Feeling God is known by
names and attributes
we call upon God but
there is certainly a feeling of
closeness when you access him and so I
think the beauty of Islam is that
as perfect as God is described
he's also so accessible to the imperfect
and so the idea of sincere supplication
and connection to him we worship him
alone we call upon him alone there's no
clergy there's no barrier between God
and and us
and that encourages
a sincere devotion and commitment to him
alone and so he is certainly described
Supreme
and God speaks to us through the Quran
and we speak to him through sincere
supplication
and his attributes are the furthest from
us in terms of their perfection but he
is ever close to us through our
supplication through our prayers and
through our connection to him
to open the door to that connection to
have a connection with God how difficult
is that process how difficult was it for
you how difficult is it for the people
that for the many many many Muslims that
you've interacted with
well I think that there are different
layers of difficulty Right There Is the
personal difficulty submitting yourself
to God you know Islam requires a
complete submission to him and
one of the things that happens is that
if we
project
some of our bad experiences with
authority onto our relationship with God
then we immediately perceive him in a
certain way that might not allow us to
gain a closeness to him because maybe we
didn't have the best relationship with
our parents growing up maybe we didn't
have the best relationship with
authority figures in our lives and so
this idea of an ultimate authority to
whom you submit yourself can be very
difficult you know Malcolm X who was one
of the most prominent converts to Islam
in American history talked about the
difficulty of prostration for the very
first time putting your head on the
ground putting your face on the ground
and praying to God is a very humbling
thing submitting all of your Affairs to
him is very humbling
and ultimately you have to relinquish
control and you can't relinquish control
without trust so you have to learn to
trust God to trust God you have to know
him and to know him is to love him and
so
for me personally you know growing up uh
going through certain difficulties
having a sick parent who struggled uh in
her life with cancer and with Strokes
dealing with racism in south Louisiana
growing up
it was important for me to learn about
God through my difficulties for example
rather than let those difficulties turn
me away from him
many times people put a barrier between
them and God because they can't make
sense of the things that are happening
in their own lives
and so they project anger towards God
and at the same time deny their own
belief in him and do away with this
natural disposition that every one of us
has to believe in him so they're
intellectual barriers certainly there
are experiential barriers
but I think that one of the beautiful
things about Islam is Clarity uh there
is an explanation
for
his existence there's an explanation for
our existence there's an explanation for
the existence of difficulties in trial
and explanation for the existence of
desires and distractions
and it all comes together so beautifully
and coherently in Islam and so
I think that for many of us we want to
be our own Gods you know and ultimately
we create and fashion gods in ways that
allow us to still be the ultimate
determiners of our own fates of Our Own
story
and that's very unfulfilling when you
fail at your own plan but when you
realize that there is one who was all
knowing
that there is one who is all wise
you actually find peace in submitting
yourself to him and so submitting your
will to him submitting your desires
submitting your own fate to him becomes
actually an experience of Liberation
because you trust the one that you're
submitting to you trust his knowledge
over yours you trust his wisdom over
yours
and that gives you a lot of peace and
then you have direct access to them you
pray to him you call upon him you
supplicate
and
everything in your life suddenly has
meaning you know in our faith
everything is about intention and
there's an intentionality even behind
the most seemingly most mundane actions
a morsel of food in the mouth of your
spouse your family is looked at as a
great charity the way that you enter
into a place and exit out of a place
what foot you step in what foot you step
out with there's an intentionality
there's a word of remembrance that's
spoken
there's a word of Praise before and
after you engage in any action there are
things that you say before you eat
before you sleep there is meaning even
to your sleep one of the great
Companions of the Prophet Muhammad peace
and blessings be upon him he said that I
seek the reward for my sleep just as I
seek the reward for my prayer because
you sleep to refresh yourself so that
you can once again do great things and
the intentionality behind that allows
even the sleep to be rewardable you eat
to nourish yourself so that you can do
great things you seek to be in a
position of Independence and of being
sustained so that you can sustain others
so the prophet peace be upon Him says
for example that the upper hand is
better than the lower hand the upper
hand is the giving hand the lower hand
is the receiving hand so to seek a
position where you can help other people
everything becomes intentional and
there's no such thing as you know
something that is meaningless and
without purpose so every Pursuit is
ultimately a pursuit of God and when you
pursue God sincerely then he rewards you
not just with Paradise in the afterlife
but he rewards you with a great sense of
Serenity and self-satisfaction here you
mentioned part of the struggle growing
up was having a parent your mom
who was sick what do you remember
about your mom what are some happy
pleasant memories
so my parents were well my father I
thank God is still alive
um my mother was a Pious woman a
beautiful woman
a righteous woman a woman who was known
for treating everyone with a great deal
of love and respect she was a poet she
used to write poetry about oppressed
peoples around the world
from her homeland in Palestine to the
genocide in Bosnia she followed every
conflict before social media and poured
her heart into it she was a woman of
great charity
so when I think back to my mom growing
up she was known for her smile my mom
was always smiling and in fact every
picture of her she's smiling and at her
funeral you know people talked about her
smile that she would smile at everyone
and that was kind of her thing so if you
were left out of a gathering she was
smiling at you and she'd kind of welcome
you in
I remember my mom to be content she was
a woman of prayer and a woman of
contentment so I used to see her in her
prayer clothes all the time in fact when
I think back to her growing up I think
of her more in her prayer clothes than
in her normal clothes because that's how
often she was engaged in prayer
and I think of her
um making sure that everyone was
included in a conversation so she was
very interesting
and that she had several Strokes
um and each one of those Strokes
impaired one of her senses to some
extent so she was partially deaf because
of one stroke
and she'd be sitting in a gathering and
she'd be pretty quiet with a big smile
on her face very serene
and she would tell me you know
alhamdulillah which means thank thank
God all praise be to God that I can't
hear because uh I can tell when people
are gossiping when people are saying
negative things around me about other
people because she says even the look on
people's faces changes so it's it was
really interesting because she was that
spiritually rooted and and deep that she
said like you could see on the looks on
people's faces when they started to
speak ill about other people that their
faces would change that the Nate their
demeanor would change and she said I
would actually praise the Lord
that I couldn't engage in those
conversations and that I wasn't sinful
for hearing them and what she would do
is what what people said
at her funeral which was really
beautiful to me it was very comforting
to me and I took it as a life mission
that if you were new to a place or if
you were kind of in the corner and not
not known to other people in the
community and you felt left out she was
the one that literally would look around
the room
and she'd see who was standing in the
corner and who was new to the community
or new to whatever place and she'd go
and try to include that person in the
Gathering so even when she had impaired
speech and impaired hearing uh with her
smile and with her warmth she was able
to welcome people uh wherever that was
and so the amount of people that came
to her funeral and the stories that I
continue to hear till this day 15 years
later after her passing away
of people that said you know no one ever
treated me the way your mother treated
me and she connected that to God
so that was actually part of my faith
Journey when I think of great people
when I think of people of faith
she's the first person that comes to my
mind because
despite her challenges she was always
the greatest person that you would meet
to anyone that met her and that knew her
would say I'd never I've never met
anyone that kind that was her reputation
and she was deeply empathetic she would
shed tears over people that she had no
connection to this is again before
social media before you know the the
heavy exposure that we have to people in
Conflict zones
she had to engage every single human
being in her life in a deep and profound
way because she had a profound
connection to God and she believed that
that was her calling
and none of her challenges made her
bitter in fact they only made her more
connected to God and they only made her
a better person until the last breath
that she took
do you miss her
yeah
there I mean yes absolutely but I
I feel like everything I do is an
extension of her
so you try to carry what she stood for
absolutely as part of yourself the
prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said
that when a person passes away there are
only three things that continue to
benefit them that continue to extend
them
a continuous charity
or a piece of knowledge that continues
to benefit people
or a righteous child that prays for them
and I want to be that child that prays
for her but also does charity in her
name extends her charity extends what
she taught me by being the person that
she was
to everyone around me and there's some
times where I don't feel like getting
out of bed sometimes where I don't feel
like doing for myself but I actually
feel like doing for her so everything in
my life that I try to do
I try to make it an extension of her and
um
that's been my calling and you know I
believe I'll meet her again
I believe I'll be with her again
I believe that everything I do that is
good will be of benefit to her
and I believe that it would make her
proud
and so as much as I miss her
uh as much as I am
fueled to do for her and so I continue
that and that's kind of become part of
my life it's been my life story
as a child and as an adult it's been
sort of the centerpiece of my life to do
things that extend her
and ultimately in the process hopefully
benefit me because I I believe that
she's a woman who I pray is destined for
paradise and I want to do the things
that would get me there too
what did you learn about death
about life from
losing her
I feel like the facade of the material
world
was made evident to me at a very young
age you know most children grow up
and
their parents want to protect them from
everything and and I felt that too you
know my my mother wanted to downplay her
own tragedy so that me and my brother
could live a fruitful and fulfilling
life my father wanted to protect us
from
the hardship of her life so that we
could live fulfilling lives he was he'd
often be the only father on a field trip
even though he was a distinguished
Professor I mean he was a busy man
he he was a very busy man but he tried
to show up at a field trip and tried to
make our lives as normal as possible
but
in the process we always understood that
there was more to life than
what other children were seeing it as
and now I know that as an adult there's
more to life than what other adults see
it as the material world
disappointed early on so that we could
see beyond it and I often tell people
that you know
there are many that grow up in tragedy
orphan children
um refugees
that
grow up and do incredible things because
they immediately see past
the
facade they see through all of the
material Promises of this world the
deception of it
and that you can choose to be bitter as
a result of that or you can choose to
be better
and I think that for me I had to
consciously make that decision that I
was going to live a life
of prayer I was going to live a life of
Charity I was going to live a life of
commitment
and
in that process
invest in something that's greater
invest in something that doesn't
disappoint
and so I believe in God I believe in the
hereafter
and I believe that God will not let any
trial
or effort in this life go to waste
without it being repaid in the Hereafter
and so I work towards that and so life
and death
I understood existence to be
Transcendent early on that if I believe
that there was nothing to life except
for life I would be a very bitter person
but because
I know that there is more to it than
this
I'm able to uh exist in it
without being depressed by it
existence is Transcendence
what happens after we die
after
the
material instantiation
uh Fades away
so the Quran tells us
that God brought us from the darkness of
the womb
into this life
you were nothing but a dirty drop of
fluid and you became this fully
proportioned human being from the
darkness of the womb you come into this
life
you experience it and then you go to the
darkness of the Grave only to be
resurrected once again
and that we are
Souls
with bodies not bodies with souls and
there's a huge difference between those
two things
this is the vehicle that contains us
here
this is the material world that we
encounter here
but we are not this
and this is not our entire existence and
so the soul continues this is a life in
which
we
seek to worship Him
and seek to live in accordance with the
purpose that he has set out for us
and after we pass away our soul
continues onwards
either to reward or to punishment or to
a mixture of both but it's a it's a
realm of accountability
and hopefully it's a realm of reward uh
should we exist in a way that he wants
us to exist
so he said that you can look to God for
wisdom to make sense of the world
there's a lot of stuff to us humans
that's difficult to make sense of
um like you losing your mother
there's a lot of Cruelty in the world
there's a lot of suffering in the world
uh what
wisdom uh
have you been able to find uh from God
about about why there is suffering in
the world why there's cruelty you know
there's a thing that I wanted to ask God
about why he allows hunger and War and
poverty but I was afraid he might ask me
the same question
God has certainly given us enough food
there's enough food in the world for
everyone to have a 3200 calorie diet a
day
God has certainly given us enough
guidance uh for us to not inflict on
each other the cruelty that we inflict
when we look to the world around us
first and foremost we have to have a
sense of accountability we are
accountable for our own actions we don't
blame God for the evil of man that's one
but at the same time we understand that
God and his wisdom allows for certain
outcomes that we cannot Encompass with
our own
and that to isolate these incidents
and to try to make sense of them is no
different than a baby in the womb
that doesn't understand the world that
it's coming into and trying to explain
to that baby that hasn't yet developed
its own senses and its own perception of
this world
what is happening to it right you know I
often think of the example of a child
and
you know having
been at this point now through the
experience of
Parenthood I'm still learning I'm just
going into having a teenager uh with
three kids
and being a softy for my kids you know
when you have to tell your child that
they can't have something that they
really really want
and that child thinks you hate them at
some point you know because why are you
stopping me from
putting this toy in my mouth
and choking myself they don't get it
right but at the same time you prevent
them out of love they're not in a
position to understand that you're
preventing them out of love
and to isolate these incidents with God
and to say the wisdom what's the wisdom
uh you're trying to make sense of a
pixel when you can't see the bigger
picture
your mind is not at a place where you
can make sense of the bigger picture you
haven't seen the bigger picture
and so
for him to even explain to us every
incidence
uh would completely defeat the purpose
of putting your trust in him so
we believe in a god that is
all-encompassing in his knowledge and
wisdom
that gives us and Islam is very PR you
know specific by the way that there is
what God tells us to do and there's what
God allows to happen
so what God tells us to do in terms of
the road map towards good and then what
God allows to happen in his Divine
wisdom that no outcome can escape him
but at the same time we are accountable
for our own actions and our own Deeds
so when you come to someone and say you
know why did God allow this to happen to
this person
I can't rationalize that for you because
my understanding is relegated to the
immediate experience in front of me
but if I know God and if I learn about
God
then
I don't have to make sense of the plan
but I can tell you that I trust the
planner
and I think that that's where peace is
found
you know a lot of times you look for the
light at the end of the tunnel what's
the light at the end of the tunnel in
Islam there's emphasis on God and the
Hereafter because to try to make sense
of
ah Divine decree and why certain things
happen in this world without the
existence of a God or without the
existence of a hereafter
will always fail you so the existence of
a god that is all-knowing what we don't
know I know what you don't know that
understands what we don't understand the
existence of a God who is not subject to
our constrictions
and the existence of a Hereafter where
all things find recourse where there is
divine recourse
allows for this world to be situated
within the existence of something
greater and not treated in isolation so
when you're trying to treat an incidence
of this world in isolation you're going
to fail and when you try to treat
existence in this world and of this
world in isolation you're also going to
fail and so the emphasis is the belief
in God
a god that is not limited like you are
and a belief in the Hereafter that is
not limited like this life
and so everything continues onwards and
there is divine recourse for everything
each and everything you know the prophet
Muhammad peace and blessings be upon it
mentions that
on the day of judgment a person who
lived the most difficult of lives will
be dipped into Paradise one time and
will be told have you ever seen any
sadness any hardship now when you think
about the most difficult life some of
the commentators in Islam they said that
this is perhaps referring to the prophet
job
Ayub peace be upon him because job lived
obviously a life of great difficulty but
that a person who lived a very hard life
would be dipped into Paradise one time
and just with a dip be asked have you
ever seen any hardship have you ever
seen any misery and that person would
say what is sadness what is hardship
what is misery now if you don't believe
in the Hereafter if you don't believe in
anything beyond this life then the
recourse has to happen in this life and
because we see so many people pass
through this life
without recourse of Cruelty Without
recourse of suffering then we're forced
to try to make sense of it and if you
are someone who believes that this
entire world came into existence through
Randomness that were just an existence
of
random atoms that collide with each
other and that all of this comes
together out of nothing
then how can you put your trust in
anything that is greater
so as a you know you asked me as a child
of a parent who suffered
I believe that every moment that my
mother
suffered
that she will be rewarded that she will
be elevated that all of that made her or
contributed to the beautiful person that
she was and will contribute to the
beautiful reward that she receives and
the recourse is certain to me as a
believer in that
so the right approach to making sense of
the world
especially making sense of suffering and
cruelty is that of humility
that we as humans
cannot possibly understand fully
absolutely in fact in the Quran it's
very interesting when God creates Adam
the Angels say to God
are you going to create
uh a race or a species that will spill
blood and cause corruption
and God says to the angels in response
to that question I know that which you
don't know
so even the angels have to Humble
themselves for a moment the Angels who
adore God who love God who worship Him
who obey him unconditionally they are
told
by God I know that which you don't know
and what we extract from that with many
of the early interpretations extract
from that is that
God knows that there are human beings
that will come out of this Enterprise of
humanity that make the entire existence
of it worth it and so just as yes there
will be criminals and corrupt ones
there will be prophets and beautiful
people that come out of this and sages
and saints that come out of this that
show that a human being
who unlike an angel who has no choice
but to worship God an angel has no sense
of will no sense of choice an angel is
created to worship and has no desires a
human being who has the choice of desire
and worship the choice of righteousness
and wickedness that there are human
beings who will choose worship and
righteousness that will choose charity
over cruelty
that will choose service and choose
dedication and devotion
over death and destruction that there
are human beings that will in fact
Ascend the angels in rank because they
will live lives where they choose that
capacity that part of themselves
and they lean into that and worship God
lovingly and Obey him you see in some of
the sages in Islam Scholars they
describe this as saying that the human
being has the capacity
to be anywhere from an animal to an
angel or even worse to be a devil you
know to an angel not in the sense that
we ever actually become Angels or become
animals but that an animal you know for
the most part seeks its desires over
everything doesn't really think about
you know many of the things that we are
supposed to calculate as human beings
doesn't think about which territory it's
infringing upon or you know how much of
its appetite it should fulfill it simply
exists to fulfill its appetite and that
many human beings simply exist to
fulfill their appetite and they choose
that over worship or reason or anything
that is greater just
they literally take their selves as gods
in that sense and their selves have no
limitation on appetite so they just keep
filling that appetite and filling that
appetite and filling that appetite
whereas
a human being can also go to the extent
of choosing something greater
and disciplining their desires
disciplining themselves because they're
seeking a greater reward you know we
know many people that achieve great
things
in the worldly sense
because they choose to study over sleep
for example
they choose to exert themselves towards
their careers towards their education
because they believe that ultimately the
outcome of those Pursuits are more
rewarding than the immediate fulfillment
of their desires so as Believers we
choose that love of God and we choose
that outcome that we seek and we
discipline ourselves to where we can
even Ascend past the angels and rank now
of course I said we can go as low as an
animal or as low as a devil
and we have tyrants
past and present and future as well
that can become satanic in their nature
because they allow their desires to take
such control over them that they not
only worship them but that every other
existing being around them
simply becomes a piece of their own
puzzle and pursuit of their own lordship
and their own satisfaction and they will
kill they will discard not because you
know and I always say this it's not that
tyrants
necessarily like killing people it's not
people's lives uh pose somewhat of an
you know an indifference to them they're
indifferent to people's existence and so
you become
either an object for or against me and
so they're willing to discard
children discard people discard the
rights of others because they ultimately
have chosen that the greatest pursuit of
themselves is the maximum position of
power
and a place to where they can fulfill
what they want to of themselves without
any limits and every everyone else
becomes either a threat or an
opportunity in that regard so we can be
Devils we can be Angelic like we could
be animals
we're somewhere on that spectrum and
every moment contains a set of choices
you can make absolutely every single
moment contains a set of choices and
that's where the intentionality comes in
right so the prophet Muhammad as peace
be upon Him says that I saw a person
strolling in Paradise because he removed
something harmful from the road
uh he tells us about a woman that lived
the life and prostitution but that
repented to God when she was thirsty one
day and she saw a dog that was also
thirsty and she said that I was thirsty
and God gave me water so I'm going to
choose to give water to that Thirsty Dog
and God enters her into Paradise as a
result of that
sometimes the small moments with a small
sincere deed
can have a huge impact on a person's
trajectory so every moment is a moment
of choices and
when we choose
belief righteousness a pursuit of
something greater than we find ways to
turn things that are otherwise mundane
and to
miraculous acts right where we can we
can choose God over ourselves and in the
process choose a better fate for
ourselves
how difficult is the process of knowing
understanding what is the righteous
action
of
knowing what it means to be a good man
or a good woman
well the truth has consequences so don't
seek out the truth unless you're willing
to abide by what you find so a lot of
people want to mold
their journey in accordance with a
predetermined Pursuit that they already
have and so when they approach religion
they approach it like another product
you know there was a uh an article that
was actually written by a rabbi I've
spoken about this in several sermons it
was called the Allure of narcissistic
spirituality the Allure of narcissistic
spirituality where he talks about
you know how religion becomes just
another product of your own self
adoration and worship to where you only
approach religion to the extent that it
gives you
more happiness in the worldly sense you
only approach of it what is therapeutic
so it becomes just as
secular
in its nature as any other practice of
meditation or whatever it may be or some
other product and it kind of mentions
you know how uh he he took that from a
person that is praying in a temple and a
guy walks into the temple and bumps into
him and then he curses the guy out so he
didn't see his behavior towards that
person as uh part of his trajectory of
worship he just saw his being Godly as
the worship that he was engaged in the
truth has
consequences the truth has circumstances
that are required of you actions that
are required of you that may be somewhat
inconvenient so you have to be willing
to engage in a sincere Pursuit Of Truth
and look for Truth for what it is
and not simply look for comfort and
convenience
and when you engage in that journey of
wanting to know
you have to engage it thoroughly
and sincerely and try your best to
remove any bias I think that's what
makes the the religion of Islam such a
phenomenon for people that with all the
islamophobia and the bigotry towards it
still the fastest growing religion in
the United States and the fastest
growing religion in the world to know
that's not all birth rate
yeah we have a lot of kids but
um many people you know you met someone
just before we started this interview
many people in fact in a post-9 11 world
solve what they saw of Islam in the
media
and they actually you know went and
checked out copies of the Quran and
started to read about the religion and
in their sincere Pursuit Of Truth ended
up embracing religion that they believed
was the greatest source of Destruction
in the world and now it's the greatest
source of peace for them in their own
existence in their own lives and so you
have to be willing to engage in a
sincere pursuit of wanting to know
and then be willing to engage in sincere
commitment after you know otherwise the
heart rests and so there's a process in
the Quran talks about this of making the
heart like fertile soil towards truth so
you have a sincere Pursuit but then at
some point if you come to know and then
you ignore what you come to know then
the heart rests and it becomes harder to
recognize it the second time around the
third time around and so when people
come to me and they say you know
I'm looking for something I'm looking
for I'm looking for God I'm looking for
my purpose the first thing I tell them
as I say listen
what you need to do is if you're really
looking for God in your and you believe
in God and there are often people that
say I believe in God but I don't know
where to go with this right I know that
there's something greater in Islam we
call that the fitra a natural
disposition towards the belief in the
existence of God
um but where do I go from here you know
what do I do now and I say the first
thing you need to do is
you need to sincerely say oh God guide
me to the truth
call upon God sincerely say I'm calling
upon you alone and I'm asking you to
guide me to the truth show me what it is
right
and that's the heart function
then you need to actually investigate
and try to suspend bias right
investigate the world's religions
investigate the claims to Truth uh
investigate use you know rational
inquiry to the extent that the heart
becomes satisfied
and
suspend bias and you'll be surprised and
so for a lot of people
they come to me and they say you know
this this about Islam I'm like look I'm
if you're just going to talk to me about
what you've seen of Islam in the media
if you were serious about it you know if
you're serious about it then
uh you're not simply going to be
satisfied with
the highly edited images and distorted
facts that come towards you about this
religion right
what are you looking for right are you
are you looking for a scapegoat Islam
poses a threat to many people right are
you looking for a scapegoat are you
looking for the big bad scary foreign
enemy
or are you looking at
a religion that one-fourth of the world
adheres to and if one-fourth of us were
bad the world would not exist right so
are you looking towards this religion
that one-fourth of the world adheres to
are you going to read about the prophet
Muhammad peace be upon him are you going
to read the Quran yourself are you going
to investigate for yourself uh what it
is that this faith has to offer and find
in it a great sense of of of wisdom a
great sense of beauty a great sense of
Truth
and I think that for for a lot of people
you know they they find that Islam has
such a beautiful combination of the
intellectual proofs as well as the
spiritual experiences that often combine
uh what people seek in the Western and
the Eastern religion so I had an
interesting two weeks
uh two weeks in a row
um this was August two weeks in a row I
had someone who converted to Islam
that went from being that started off as
a Methodist went from being a Methodist
to being a Buddhist to being a Muslim so
two weeks in a row I had a Methodist
turn Buddhist turn Muslim great journey
yeah I I called my my Methodist uh
friends I have a lot of Methodist
Pastors in the city that I work with and
I said what's going on here man you're
sending people on to this interesting
journey of Buddhism and then Islam but
both of them had a very similar story
which is that they had sought in
Buddhism for example the
you know some of the meditative
practices that are found that that
really Western religion which has been
dominated by capitalism and dominated by
by very material things and uh can be
very unfulfilling they found that in
some of the Eastern philosophies and the
meditative practices and then they came
to Islam and it combined you know their
their belief in sort of the abrahamic
way it merged their belief in one God
and the prophets like Abraham and Moses
and Jesus peace be upon them all with a
a deep tradition
of meditative practices of consciousness
of connection to God on a regular basis
and they found that to be very
fulfilling both intellectually and
spiritually and so I was like that's
interesting you know two people in two
weeks that went through that Journey so
I think Islam is is very wholesome
comprehensive when people actually
approach it with humility and uh and and
appreciate what it has to offer
as you mentioned uh
in the minds of some Americans after 9
11 the religion of Islam was associated
with
maybe you could say evil in the world
yeah maybe you can say uh terrorism how
can you respond to this Association how
does it make you feel first of all as a
devout Muslim yourself and
um how can you overcome it personally
how can you overcome it as a community
and as a religious leader
it's interesting because 9 11 now we're
talking over 21 years ago
you know there's people born after 9 11.
it's great you get to talk to them all
the time yeah so when I'm talking to
Young Muslims I'm talking about Post 9
11 Post 9 11 they're like I didn't I was
born in 2005. what are you talking about
Post 9 11 I'm like well you know I
remember being a teenager I remember
being in high school when this happened
right so a lot of us that experienced
911 as high school lures or as college
students and remember distinctly what it
was like to be a Muslim pre-9 11 and
Post 9 11. uh we can relate to that
experience and we could we could
identify that juncture you know very
clearly and talk about it and speak to
the change in the perceptions of Islam
that happened here in the United States
and around the world but a lot of young
people are born into that reality and
are experiencing the aftermath of it
and um you know unfortunately have to
deal with the bigotry that has uh not
just you know taken greater shape in
media constructions of Islam but also
policies right a lot of the civil
liberties of the Muslim Community were
taken away from us you read about the
Patriot Act you read about the
securitization of the Muslim Community
and some of the unfair practices that
have been engaged by the Bush
Administration the Obama Administration
the Trump Administration and continue
into the Biden Administration uh
International islamophobia and so
the hatred of Muslims and the bigotry
that is wielded against
Muslims on the basis of this idea that
we are a barbaric people not
ascribe to a religion of hate and
violence
has had immediate consequences for us no
matter where we are in terms of our age
and in terms of our experience we We
have dealt with that in different ways
now
the association of Islam to terrorism is
a lazy Association
it's one that ignores both
The History of Violence
as well as its everyday occurrence
you know we're good for how many mass
shootings a year
once when's the last time you heard of a
Muslim carrying out a mass shooting in
America right how many of those mass
shootings if you were to scrub the
social media what 400 500 mass shootings
a year
if you were to scrub the social media of
some of those that carried out those
shootings you know we're good for one or
two idiots a year right you know it's
unfortunate that you're gonna have
people that that carry out despicable
acts of violence
but when we as Muslims hear someone in
the media say terrorism has been ruled
out as a possibility
while the blood is still on the floor of
that Walmart we already know that the
police chief just said that that wasn't
a Muslim don't worry you know there was
no Kari the guy or an Isis guy
um it was it was one of our own right
and so it's it's become frankly
ridiculous because the association of
violence with Islam
uh is one that is used to actually uh
carry out acts of violence against
Muslims worldwide it justifies bad
policy towards Muslims worldwide and
then in the United States and it's just
factually so lazy there was a study just
about how the media gives more attention
to acts of violence done by Muslims and
immediately uh stamps it with Islam up
to 300 percent more than it will with
another act of violence carried out in
the name of anything else so you don't
hear about the acts of violence that are
carried out by others you don't hear
about the religion of the perpetrators
you don't associate terrorism with
actions frankly of State terrorism you
know when governments launch chemical
attacks or drone weddings
and do so while explicitly dehumanizing
the people just because they do so
with the government apparatus doesn't
make it any less terroristic than if
it's a lone person that goes out and
commits an act of violence trying to
achieve a political goal
so the association is lazy historically
speaking the Crusades I grew up in
Louisiana I saw Clan rallies ku klux
klan rallies my whole life and people
said well that's a thing of the past
well guess what you know we see many
semblances many acts that are carried
out with the same vitriol that was
generated by the Ku Klux Klan
we have people standing in front of our
mosques that belong to right wing hate
militias carrying
AR-15s talking about wanting to inflict
harm on Muslims I have been to
Christchurch New Zealand and buried the
victims of a white supremacist terrorist
who was inspired by the political
rhetoric here in the United States in
his own words in his Manifesto to go and
kill 50 innocent people in Christchurch
New Zealand one of the most peaceful
cities in the world
and by the way Lex I mean it's really
interesting like with Christ Church
you know the man wanted and I won't even
say his name
but his next Target after the two
mosques had he not been stopped was to
go to a Muslim daycare so what drives
someone
to dehumanize people to that extent that
he was willing to go to a daycare and
murder a bunch of kids because he saw
them as a demographic threat to
civilization so Muslims are terrorized
because they are falsely depicted as
terrorists Muslims suffer domestically
and globally because of this false
Association It's a lazy Association
and when someone comes around and says
well
um fine not all Muslims are terrorists
but all terrorists are Muslims I say
that
you clearly don't read statistics
whether we're talking about the 20th
century and I'm a student of history and
I believe you are as well all the isms
World War One World War II had nothing
to do with religion certainly nothing to
do with Islam fascism uh Soviet atheism
right many of these systems where people
were murdered in the millions Nazism uh
the Holocaust Rwanda Cambodia I can go
on and on the rohingya Today the
greatest atrocity towards the oyers
where is Islam fit in all of this people
do horrible things
they stamp it with religion at times
but the only group of people that seem
to suffer after an act of violence is
committed are Muslims because any act of
violence that is committed by a Muslim
will immediately be blamed on Islam and
two billion people will have to carry
the burden of the act of a single
perpetrator
and
just to reiterate
in case the numbers are not known you
mentioned Christ Church those are two
mosque shootings
oh 51 people killed and 40 were injured
in New Zealand yeah
so it's uh
it's hate manifesting itself and and
then uh actual human suffering and
destruction
absolutely is there similarities between
uh anti-Semitism and anti-muslim Hate
so is there something deeper to say
about hate in general here that is
beyond just particularly hate towards
Muslims absolutely look
um in Pittsburgh the synagogue shooting
the perpetrator particularly targeted
targeted that
synagogue because Tree of Life synagogue
is life synagogue 11 killed six wounded
in 2018.
because
he believed that they were taking in
Syrian refugees or supporting Syrian
Muslim refugees
you think about that
the San Diego synagogue shooting that
took place shortly after he went to a
mosque and then he went to a synagogue
um
look the idea of
scapegoating minority populations
and attributing to them
a disproportionate sense of power and a
nefarious element where they can't be
trusted
and unless we wipe them out
then they're going to wipe us out
underlies many of the bigotries that
exist I mean look um after Trump
announced his Muslim ban there was a
shooting in Canada an attack in Canada
on a mosque in Quebec where six people
were killed
the shooter explicitly said that the
reason why he went to that mosque in
Quebec and shot dead six Muslim
worshipers was because he was afraid
that because of the ban on Syrian
refugees in the United States they would
come to Canada and he didn't want them
to feel welcomed in Canada
so there is a connection
and I think it's when you are able to
dehumanize large groups of people
and attribute a nefarious element to
them
then unfortunately in a world that's
becoming more and more polarized where
people are able to construct their
entire world views based on an algorithm
that their social media caters to
you're going to have
some of these attacks happen and there's
going to be an unfortunate connection
between them
so what I what I tell people is that you
know I think with all of these people
that shoot up synagogues and shoot up
mosques and even before that actually
the
Charleston South Carolina shooting at an
AME Church
you know
when he went there
he actually said that before he murdered
nine worshipers in that church
he was taken aback by how nice they were
to him he sat there for two hours before
he turned a gun on
many people who were over the age of 80
years old
and murdered Them In Cold Blood
so this is what I talk about when I say
that as human beings we have the
propensity unfortunately uh
to become worse than Devils or we can
choose
to be angelic
when we choose worship and righteousness
over ourselves
so that's a spiritual crisis as well and
a crisis of meaning and emptiness
where I think
people are willing to inflict great pain
on others when they can't make sense of
their pain in their own lives
I'd like to try to figure out together
with you sort of um
a way out
to try to decrease the amount of hate in
the world but maybe it's useful to talk
about the BBC documentary that
um it's kind of interesting that people
should check out it's called United
States of hate Muslims under attack and
you um you appear in that you have
conversations with people who are uh
anti-muslim and it's I believe most of
it takes place here in Dallas yeah and
can you just tell me about this uh
little documentary about that time what
it was like to interact what was the
group in the documentary and what was
like to interact with them you know in
the very beginning of um the rise
of at that time actually Ted Cruz Donald
Trump like when when islamophobia
uh was at the center of many of the
presidential candidates campaigns at the
time so this must have been 2015 yes
2015.
um the mayor of Irving at the time Beth
Van Dyne who is now a congresswoman
had put out the idea
that Muslims were operating at Sharia
Court in Irving Texas
and suddenly there was hysteria because
again there's the idea that Muslims are
here to dominate Muslims are here to
overthrow everything that you have
um in the United States there was a
hysteria here
and it was unfortunate because
um what it Unleashed you know especially
with the national discourse at the time
again the presidential campaign you know
Donald Trump says I think Islam hates us
when he uses those words I think Islam
hates us
when Ted Cruz suggests that Muslim
neighborhoods could be patrolled or
should be patrolled
and then you have the Irving mayor
saying that one of the most populated
cities with Muslims in America they're
operating under an alternative uh legal
and Alternate legal system and
funny enough the year before that she'd
come to the mosque and she praised the
diversity of Irving and she was talking
about how welcome she felt in the mosque
and the next thing we know you have
these crazy white supremacist groups
openly white supremacists that affiliate
themselves with
the clan and others
protesting regularly in front of our
mosques with their AR-15s and
um telling people to go back home and
I'm like I'm from New Orleans I'm not
planning to move back to New Orleans I'm
home we're we're home we're good you
know we're staying put
and we refuse to be intimidated
but then when the Syrian refugee crisis
is unfolding as well
Dallas has been one of the more popular
destinations if you will I'm not talking
about it like a vacati