Kind: captions
Language: en
I have had to do plenty of unpopular
things I think anytime you have to run a
company that endures a century and has
to endure another Century you will do
unpopular things you have no choice and
I often felt I had to sacrifice things
for the long term and whether that would
have been you know really difficult
things like you know job changes or
reductions or whether it would be things
like hey you know we're going to change
the way we do our semiconductors and a
whole different philosophy
you have no choice I mean and in times
of Crisis as well you got to be I wish
that it's not a popularity contest
the following is a conversation with
Jeannie vermetti who was a longtime CEO
president and chairman of IBM and for
many years she was widely considered to
be one of the most powerful women in the
world
she's the author of a new book on power
leadership and her life story called
good power coming out on March 7th
she is an incredible leader and human
being both fearless and compassionate it
was a huge honor and pleasure for me to
sit down and have this chat with her
this is the Lex Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Jeannie rometty
you worked at IBM for over 40 years
starting as a systems engineer and you
ran the company as chairman president
CEO from 2011 to 2020 IBM is one of the
largest tech companies in the world with
maybe you can correct me on this with
with about 280 000 employees
what are the biggest challenges running
the company of that size let's start
with us at a big overview question the
biggest challenges I think are not in
running them it's in changing them
and that idea to know what you should
change and what you should not change
actually people don't always ask that
question what should endure even if it
has to be modernized but what should
endure and then I found the hardest part
was changing how work got done it's such
a big company what was the parts that
you thought should endure the core of
the company that was beautiful and
powerful and could persist through time
that it should persist through time I'd
be interested do you have a perception
of what you think it would be
do I have a perception well I'm a
romantic for a history of long-running
companies so there's kind of a a
tradition as a AI person to me IBM has
some epic sort of research
accomplishments yes where you show off
you know uh deep blue and Watson just
impressive big moonshot challenges and
accomplishing those but that's I think
that's probably a small part of what IBM
is it's that's mostly like the the sexy
public facing part yeah no it is well
certainly the research part itself right
is over three thousand so it's not that
small that's a pretty big research yes
but the part that should endure ends up
being you know company that does things
that are essential to the world meaning
um
the who you know think back you said
you're romantic it was the 30s the
social security system it was putting
the man on the moon it was you know to
this day Banks don't run you know
railroads don't run uh
that is at its core it's doing Mission
critical work and so that part I think
is at its core it's a business to
business company
and at its course about doing things
that are really important to the world
be coming running and being better
running the infrastructure of the world
so doing it at scale doing it reliably
yes secure in this world that's like
everything and in fact when I started I
almost felt people were looking for what
that was and together we sort of in a
word was to be essential and the reason
I loved that word was I can't call
myself essential you have to determine I
am right so it was to be essential even
though some of what we did is exactly
what you said it's below the surface so
many people because people say to me
what does IBM do now right and over the
years it's changed so much and today
it's really a software and consulting
company consulting's a third of it and
the software is all hybrid cloud and AI
that would not have been true as you
well know back even two decades ago
right so
um it changes but I think at its core
it's that be essential you said moonshot
can all be moonshots because moonshots
don't always work but Mission critical
work so so
given the size though
when you started running it did you feel
the sort of thing that people usually
associate with size which is bureaucracy
and maybe the aspect of size a hinder
progress or hinder pivoting did you feel
that you would
um for lots of reasons I think when
you're a big company
sometimes people think of processes the
client themselves or the you know I
always say to people your process is not
your customer there is a real customer
here that you exist for and that's
really easy to fall into because they're
you know people are a master or to this
process and that's not right and when
you're big the other thing and boy
there's a premium on it is speed right
that in our industry you got to be fast
and go back like when I took over and it
was 2012.
you know we had a lot of catching up to
do and a lot of things to do and it was
moving so fast and as you well know all
those Trends were happening at once
which made them go even faster and so
pretty unprecedented actually for that
many Trends to be at one time and I used
to say to people go faster go faster go
faster and honestly
I've tired them out I mean it kind of
dawned on me that when you're that big
yeah that's a really valuable lesson and
it taught me like the house perhaps more
important than the what because
if I didn't do something to change how
work was done like change those
processes or you know give them new
tools help them with skills
they couldn't they're just like do the
same thing faster if someone tells you
you know you've got hiking boots and
they're like no go run a marathon you're
like I can't do it in those boots but so
you've got to do something and at first
I think the ways for big companies I
would call them like blunt clubs you do
what everyone does you reduce layers
because if you reduce layers decisions
go faster there's just it's math if
there's less decision points things go
faster
um you do the blunt Club thing and then
after that though it did lead me down a
you know a long journey of they sound
like buzzwords but if you really do them
at scale they're hard around things like
agile
and um because you've really got to
change the way work gets done and we
ended up training God hundreds of
thousands of people on that stuff change
it correctly on how to do it correctly
that's right versus because everybody
talks about it but the idea that you
would really have small
multi-disciplinary teams work from the
outside in set those sort of interim
steps you know take the feedback pivot
and then do it on not just products do
it on lots of things was it's a hard to
do at scale
um people always say oh I got this agile
group over here 40 people but not when
you're a couple hundred thousand people
you gotta get a lot of people to work
that way the blunt Club thing you're
talking about so flatten the
organization as much as possible yeah
yeah I probably reduce the layers of
management by half and so it that does
that has lots of benefits right time to
a decision
um more autonomy to people because and
then the idea of like faster Clarity of
of where you're going because you're not
just filtered through so many different
layers and I think it's the kind of
thing a lot of companies if you're big
have to just keep going through it's
kind of like Grass Grows you know it
just comes back and you gotta go back
down and uh and work on it so it's a
natural thing
um but I hear so many people talk about
it like this idea of like okay well who
makes a decision you've often heard
nobody can say yes and everybody can say
no and that's actually what you're
trying to get out of a system like that
so
I mean your book in general the way you
lead is very much about we and us you
know the the power of we but is there
times when a leader has to step in and
be almost autocratic take control make
hard unpopular decisions oh I am sure
you know the answer to that and and it
is of course yes
yeah you know because I actually
um a there's a leader for a time but
then there's a leader for a situation
right and so I've had to do plenty of
unpopular things I think anytime you
have to run a company that endures a
century and has to endure another
Century you will do unpopular things you
have no choice and I often felt I had to
sacrifice things for the long term and
whether that would have been you know
really difficult things like you know
job changes or reductions or whether it
would be things like hey you know we're
going to change the way we do our
semiconductors and a whole different
philosophy
you have no choice I mean and in times
of Crisis as well you got to be I wish
that it's not a popularity contest so
that's none of these jobs or popularity
contests I don't care if your company's
got one person or half a million they're
not popularity contests but
psychologically is it difficult to to
just sort of step in as a new CEO and
to do because you're fighting against
tradition against all these people that
act like Experts of their thing and they
are experts of their thing to step in
and say we need to do differently when
you had to change a company
it's really tempting to say throw
everything else out back to that what
must endure right yeah but I know when I
took over to start I knew how much he
had to change more I got into it I could
see
wow a lot more had to change right
because we needed a platform we'd always
done our best when we had a platform a
technology platform you will go back in
time and you'll think of the Mainframe
systems you'll think of the PC You'll
Think of perhaps middleware you know you
could even call services a platform we
needed a platform the next platform here
to be there
um skills when I took over if I we
inventored who had modern skills for the
future it was two out of 10 people for
the future not that they didn't have
relevant skills today but for the Future
2 out of ten yikes that's a big problem
right
um the the speed at which things were
getting done that has to so you got so
much to do and you say is that um is
that a scary thing yes do you have to
sometimes dictate yes but I did find and
it is worth it I know every big company
I know my good friend that runs General
Motors is she's had to change go back to
what is
them them you know and when you do that
that back to be essential we kind of
started with hey it's be essential then
the next thing I did with the team was
say okay now this means New Era of
computing new buyers are out there and
eh we better have new skills okay now
the next thing how do you operationalize
it and it just takes some time but you
can engineer that and get get people to
build belief and for the skills though
that means uh that means hiring and it
means training you yes yeah oh boy
that's a long skills is a really long
Topic in and of itself I try to put my
view in it I learned a lot and I changed
my view on this a lot
um
I'll go back at my very beginning say 40
years ago I I would have said
at that point okay I was always in a
hurry of I was interviewing to hire
people I don't know how you hire people
40 years ago I'd be like okay I gotta
fit in these interviews I gotta hire
someone to get this done okay then time
would go on I'm like oh that's not very
good in fact someone once said to me hey
hire the best people to work for you and
your job gets a lot easier okay I should
spend more time on this topic I spend
more time on it then it was like okay
hire experts okay okay I hired a lot of
experts over my life
and then I was really like an epiphany
and it really happened over my tenure
running the company and having to change
skills
if someone's an expert at something and
has just done that for 30 years
the ads that I'm really wanting to
change a lot are pretty low and when
you're in a really Dynamic industry
that's a problem and so okay that was
like kind of my first revelation on this
and then when I looked to hiring
I can remember when I started my job we
needed cyber people and I go out there
and I look unemployment in the US was
almost 10 can't find them okay it's ten
percent and I can't find the people okay
what's the issue okay they're not
teaching the right things
that led me down a path and it was
Serendipity that I happened to do a
review of social Corporate social
responsibility we had this one little
fledgling School in a low-income area
and high school with a community college
we gave them internships Direction our
curriculum oh and behold we could hire
these kids
I said Hmm this is not CSR like I just
found a new talent pool which takes me
to now what I'm doing in my post you
know post-retirement I'm like this idea
that don't hire just for a college
degree we had 99 of our hires were
college and phds and I'm all for it so
you're very don't go I'm deeply offended
no you should not be I and I you know
I'm Vice chair at Northwestern one of
the device here but but I said I just
really like aptitude does not equal
access these people didn't have access
but they had aptitude it changed my
whole view to skills first and so now
for hiring that's kind of a long story
to tell you the number one thing I would
hire for now is somebody's willingness
to learn you know and you can test you
can try different ways but their
curiosity and willingness to learn hands
down I will take that trait over
anything else they have so the interview
process the question changed everything
changed the kind of things you talk to
them about is try to get at how curious
they are about the world testing and I
mean there's we triangulated around it
lots of ways and now look they're at the
heart of it what it would do is change
you don't think of buying skills you see
you think of building skills and when
you think that way with so many people
and I think this country many developed
countries being disenfranchised
you got to bring them back into the
workforce somehow and they got to get
some kind of contemporary skills and if
you took that approach you can bring
them back into the workforce yeah I
think some interesting combination of
humility and passion because like you
said experts sometimes lack humility if
they call themselves an expert for a few
too many years so you have to have that
beginner's mind and a passion to be able
to uh aggressively constantly be a
beginner at everything and learn and
learn and learn you know I I saw it
firsthand when we were beginning this
path you know down the cloud and Ai and
we said and people say oh IBM you know
it's existential they got to change and
all these things and and I did hire a
lot of people from outside very willing
to learn new things come on in come on
in
and I sometimes say shiny objects
trained in shiny objects come on in but
I saw something it was another one of
these you're not a shiny object I'm not
saying that it's uh but I learned
something okay some of them did
fantastic
and others they're like well let me
school you on everything but they didn't
realize like we did really Mission
critical work and then break a bank I
mean they would not understand the
certain kind of security and the
auditability and everything they had to
go on and then I watched IBM people say
oh I actually could learn something some
were like yeah okay I don't know how to
do that's a really good thing I could
learn and in the end there was not like
one group was a winner one was a loser
the winners were the people who were
willing to learn from each other I mean
it was to me it was very Stark example
of that point and I and I saw it
firsthand so that's why I'm so committed
to this idea about skills first and
that's how people should be hired
promoted paid you name it yeah the AI in
general it seems like nobody really
understand is now
what the future will look like we're all
trying to figure it out so like what you
know IBM will look like in 50 years uh
in relation to the the software business
to AI is unknown what Google will look
like what all these companies were
trying to figure it out out and that
means constantly learning
taking risks all of those things and
nobody's really skilled in AI It's like
because you're absolutely right that's
right I couldn't agree more with you on
that you uh you wrote In the book uh
speaking of hiring quote my drive for
Perfection often meant I only focused on
what needed to change without
acknowledging the positive this could
keep people from trusting themselves it
could take me a while to learn that just
because I could point something out
didn't mean I should
I still spotted errors but I became more
deliberate about what I mentioned and
sent back to get fixed I also tried to
curtail my tendency to micromanage and
let people execute I had to stop
assuming my way was the best or only way
I was learning the giving other people
control builds their confidence and
they're constantly trying to control
people destroys it so what's the right
balance between showing the way and
helping people find the way
that is a good question
because
like a really flip answer would be
as it gets bigger you have no choice but
to just you know you can't do it you
have to
you have to tell or show I mean
you've got to let people find their way
because it's so big you can't right
that's an obvious answer scope of work
bigger it gets okay I've gotta let more
stuff go
but
I have always believed that a a Leader's
job is to do as well
and I think there's like a few areas
that are really important that you
always do now it doesn't meaning you're
showing so like when it has to do with
values and value-based decisions like I
think it's really important to
constantly
show people that you you walk your talk
on that kind of thing is super important
and I actually think it's a struggle
young companies have because the values
aren't deeply rooted and when a storm
comes it's easy to uproot and
um so I always felt like when it was
that time I showed it I got taught that
so young as at IBM and even General
Motors that
um
in fact I write I do write about that in
the book first time I was a manager I
had a gentleman telling dirty jokes and
not to me but to other people and it
really offended people and some of the
women this is this is the very early 80s
and
they came said something I talked to my
boss I'm a first time manager and he was
unequivocal with what I should do he
said and this was a top performer it
stops immediately or you fire him
so there are a few areas like that that
I actually think you have to always
continue to role model and show right I
that to me isn't the kind that like when
do you let go of stuff right so the
values and relationships with with
clients yeah whatever you're in service
of and and the other thing was I really
felt was really important to role model
learning right so
you know I can remember when we started
down the journey
and we went on to this thing called it
think Academy IBM's longtime motto have
been think and we said okay I'm gonna
make the first Friday of every month
compulsory education
and okay I mean everybody like everybody
I don't care what your job is okay when
the whole company has to transform
everybody's got to get kind of have some
skin in this game and understand it I
taught the first hour of every month for
four years now nice okay I had to learn
something so
but it made me but I've like okay if I
can teach this you can do it right I
mean you know kind of thing so it was a
compulsory uh Thursday night education
for you oh a little bit I'm a little
better prepared than that but yes you're
so right yes so you you prepare yeah
you like to prepare yeah but there's
roots in that go back deeply deeply
deeply deeply I and I think it's an
interesting reason so why do why are you
you're preparer my friend yeah yes you
are you prepare for your interviews uh
sure the rest you Wing yeah I Wing but
that's okay I mean you don't have to
prepare everything I don't prepare
everything either no but I I
unfortunately Wing stuff I save it to
last minute I I push everything I'm
always almost late and I don't know why
that is I mean there's some deep
psychological thing we should probably
investigate but it's probably the
anxiety
brings out the performance that can be
that's very true with some people I mean
so I'm a programming engineer at heart
and so so programmers famously
overestimate or underestimate sorry how
long that something's going to take and
so I just everything always
underestimate and it's almost as if I
want to feel this chaos of anxiety of a
deadline or something like this
otherwise I'll be lazy sitting on a
beach with a pina colada and relaxing
yeah I don't know so that we have to
know ourselves but for you for me you
like to prepare yeah it came from a few
different places I mean one would have
been as a as a kid I think
um
I was not a memorizer and my brother is
brilliant he can he read it once boom
done and so I always wanted to
understand like how something happened
it didn't matter what it was I was doing
it whether it was algebra theorems I
always wanted don't give me the answer
don't give me the answer you know I want
to figure it out figure out so I could
reproduce it again and didn't have to
memorize so it started with that and
then over time
okay so I was in university in the 70s
when I was in engineering school I was
the only woman you know I meet people
still to this day and they're like oh I
remember you I'm like yeah sorry I don't
remember you there were 30 of you wanted
me and I I think you already get that
feeling of okay I better really study
hard because whatever I say is going to
be remembered in this class good or bad
and it started there so in some ways
I did it for two reasons early on I
think it was a shield for confidence
the more I studied the more prepared I
was the more confident that's probably
still True to this day
the the second reason I did it evolved
over time and became different to
prepare
um if I was really prepared
then when we're in the moment I can
really listen to you see because I don't
have to be doing all this stuff on the
fly in my head and I could actually take
things I know and maybe help the
situation so it really became a way that
I could be present in in the moment and
I think it's something a lot of people
that in the moment I I learned it from
my husband he doesn't prepare by the way
at all so that's not it but but I
watched the in the moment the negative
example no no no and I'm not going to
change that as he says he's a type c I'm
an A okay how love works yeah and I have
been married 43 years and that seems to
work so but that idea that you could be
in the moment with people is a really
important thing yeah so the preparation
gives you the freedom to really be
present
so just a linger on the uh you mentioned
your brother and uh it seems like in the
book that you really had to
uh work hard when you study to to sort
of
um given that you weren't good at
memorization you really truly deeply
wanted to understand the stuff and you
put in the hard work and that seems to
persist throughout your career so
um you know hard work is often
associated with um
sort of has negative associations well
maybe with burnout with dissatisfaction
is there some aspect of hard work at the
core of who you are that led to
happiness for you
did you enjoy it I enjoyed it so I will
be the first and I'm I'm really careful
to say that to people because I don't
think everyone should associate G to do
what you did you have to there's only
one route there right and that's just
not true and I I do it because I like it
in fact I'm careful and as time goes on
you have to be careful as more and more
people watch you whether you like it
you're a role model or not you are a
role model for people whether you know
it like it want it does not matter I
learned that the hard way and I would
have to say people hey just because I do
this does not mean I do it for these
reasons right this would be really
explicit and I'd come to believe usually
when people say the word power I don't
know do you have a positive or negative
notion when I say the word power we just
do incredibly negative one yeah for some
stereotype or some view that that it
somebody's abused it in some way you can
read the newspaper somebody's doing
something
um personal people like I'll ask people
do you want power and they're like oh no
I'd rather do good yeah and I think the
irony is you need power to do good and
so that sort of led me down to in
it was I thought about my own life right
because it's it starts in a
like many of us you know you don't have
a lot but you don't know that because
you're like everybody else around you at
that time and a one end tragedy right my
father leaves my mother uh homeless no
money no food nothing four kids she's
never worked a day in her life outside
of a home
and I the irony that I hear I would end
up is the ninth CEO of one of America's
iconic companies
and now I co-chair this group 110 and
that journey I said the biggest thing I
learned was you could do really hard
meaningful things in a positive way so
now you asked me about why do I work so
hard
I ended up writing the book in three
pieces
for this reason when you really think of
your life in power
I thought it kind of felt like a pebble
in water like there's a ring about
you really care about yourself and like
the power of yourself power of me
there's a time it transcends to that you
are working with and for others and
another moment when it becomes like
about Society so my hard work
I'd ask you one day sit really hard and
think about when you close your eyes who
do you see from your early life right
and what did you learn and maybe it's
not that hard for you I mean it was
it's funny the things then
if I really looked at it it's no
surprise what I do today and that hard
work part my great grandma as uh you and
I were comparing notes on on Russia
right and never spoke English spoke
Russian came here to this country was a
cleaning person at the Wrigley building
in Chicago
yet if she hadn't saved every dime she
made
my mother wouldn't have a home and
wouldn't have had car right what did I
learn from that hard work in fact
actually she when I went to college
she's like you know you really should be
on a farm you're so big and strong you
know that was her view and then my
grandmother
another tragic life what did she do
though and think how long that's in the
40s the 50s she made lampshades and she
taught me how to sew right so I could
sew clothes when we couldn't afford them
but my my memory of my grandma is
working seven days a week sewing
lampshades and then here comes my mom in
her situation who who climbs her way out
of it so I associate that with well
strong women by the way all strong women
and I associate hard work with
how you are sure you can always take
care of yourself and so I think that the
roots go way back there and they were
always teaching something right my great
grandma was teaching me how to cook how
to work a farm even though I didn't need
to be on a farm my grandma taught me you
know here's how to sew here's how to run
a business and then my mother would
teach us that look but just a little bit
of Education look at the difference it
could make right so anyways that's a
long answer too I think that hard work
thing is really deeply rooted from that
background it gives you a way out from
Hard Times yeah you know I think I've
seen you on other podcasts say
I thought I did do you want to plan B
didn't you say no you would not like a
plan B yeah I don't know because you're
like I would prefer my back up against
am I remembering story like that
you seem to like at least certain
moments in your life seem to uh do well
in Desperate Times true enough I true
enough that's true I I learned that very
well but I also think
um that maybe this is the same kind of
plan B I think of it as like I was
taught like always be able to take care
of yourself
don't have to rely on someone else sure
and and I think that to me so so that's
my plan B I can take care of myself and
it's it's even after what I lived
through with my father I thought well
this set of bar for bad after this
nothing's bad and and that does it's a
very freeing thought the being able to
take care of yourself is that you mean
practically or do you mean just the
self-belief that I'll figure it out I'll
figure it out and practically both right
so you wrote quote I vividly remember
the last two weeks of my freshman year
when I only had 25 cents left I put the
quarter in a clear plastic box on my
desk and just stared at it this is it I
thought no more money
so do you think there's some aspect of
that Financial stress even desperation
just being hungry did that play a role
in that drive that led to your success
to be the the CEO you know one of the
great companies ever it's a really
interesting question because I was just
talking to another colleague who's CEO
of another great American company this
weekend and
he mentioned to me about all this
adversity and he said I said to him I
said
do you think
part of your success is because you had
bad stuff happen yeah
and he said yes you know and so I I
guess I'd be
lying if I didn't say I don't think you
have to have tragedy but it does teach
you like one really important thing is
that there is always a way forward
always and it's in your control I think
there's probably wisdom for mentorship
there or whether you're a parent or a
mentor
that uh easy times don't result in
growth yeah I've heard a lot of my
friends and they they worry they said
Gee my kids have never had bad times
yeah and so what you know what happens
here so I don't know is it is it
required
um and why you end up not required but
it sure doesn't hurt you had this good
line about an advice you were given that
growth and comfort never coexist growth
and comfort never coexist and you have
to get used to that thought if someone
said that they think of me like one of
the more profound sort of lessons I had
um in the eyes it's from my husband and
uh which is even more you know funny
actually you could just steal it I mean
you know I have shamelessly as he'll
tell you
um okay so the story behind growth and
comfort never coexist but honestly
I think it's been a really freeing
thought for me and it's helped me
immensely since
mid-career
and um as I write about it in the book I
mid-career and I'd been running a pretty
big business actually and the fella I
work for is going to get a new job it's
going to get promoted he calls me and he
says hey you're gonna get my job I
really want you to have it and I said to
him no way I I said I'm not ready for
that job I got a lot more things I got
to learn that is like a huge job around
the world every product line development
you name it every function I can't do it
it looked at me
he says I think you should go to the
interview
I went to interview the next day blah
blah blah guy says to me looks at me and
he says I want to offer you that job
and I said
I would like to think about it I said I
want to go home and talk to my husband
about it
kind of looked at me okay
I went home my husband is sitting there
and he says to me I went on and on about
the story Etc and he says
do you think a man would have answered
it that way and I said
he says I know you he's like six months
you're going to be bored and you all you
can think of is what you don't know and
he said I know these other people you
have way more skill than them and they
think they could do it and he's like why
why and and for me it internalized this
feeling that
and it it I'm gonna I am gonna say
something it's a bit stereotype that it
resonates with many many women and I'll
ask you if it does after is that either
the most harsh critic of themselves and
so this idea that I Won't Grow unless I
can feel uncomfortable doesn't mean I
always have to show it by the way so
that's why I meant growth and comfort
can never coexist so I got I was like
he's exactly right now the end of that
story is I went in I took the job when I
went back to the man who was really my
mentor looking out for me and he he
looked at me and he said don't ever do
that again and I said I understand
because it was okay to be uncomfortable
I didn't have to use I mean
now I would take stack of the things I
can do right and really think or I look
for times to be uncomfortable because I
know if I am nervous
like I don't know if you're nervous to
meet me we never met in real person I'm
still terrified no you're not but then
it means you're learning something right
holding it together so well that to me
matters I think it's interesting the
maybe you could speak to the the sort of
the self-critical thing inside your
inside your brain because I think
sometimes
um is talked about that women have that
um but I have that definitely and I
think that's not just solely property in
the workplace but I also want to sort of
push back on the idea that that's a bad
thing that you should silence because I
think that anxiety that leads to growth
also that's like this discomfort so
there's this weird balance you have to
have between that self-critical engine
and confidence yeah I think that's a
good point you have to kind of dance
because if you're super confident people
will value you higher that's important
but if you're way too confident maybe in
the short term you'll gain but in the
long term you won't grow very good point
so I can't really disagree with that and
and to me even when I took on jobs
I always felt people say well is it you
know what point are you confident enough
and I came to sort of believe again a
theme of my beliefs that
if I was willing to ask lots of
questions and understood enough that's
all I needed to know
let me ask you about your husband a
little bit
so you write in the book you're you're
writing the book he's just like jumping
around like I said I'm a bit of a
romantic so how did you meet your
husband so I met my husband when I was
19 years old so I was a young kid
um and I met him when I had a General
Motors scholarship so I was at
Northwestern University through my first
two years I had a lot of loans financial
aid and a professor said hey you should
sign up for this interview they're
looking to bring forward diverse
candidates through their management
track now these programs don't exist
anymore like that they will pay your
tuition your room and board your
expenses uh Northwestern other Ivy
League school these very expensive
schools and um I think you'd be a good
fit
I am eternally thankful for that advice
I went and I interviewed I actually got
the scholarship
um I mean without it I'd have graduated
with hundreds of thousands of dollars of
debt
um so part of that was in the summer I
had to work in Detroit I lived a little
room by a cement plant uh not theirs but
I mean that's all I could afford it's
very romantic very very romantic and the
person who owned the house said you know
hey I'm having a party you're not
invited I'm going to fix you up with
someone tonight
and that turned out to be my husband and
so it was a blind date is uh is how we
very first and then it was over it was
story was written yep uh let's if it's
okay just zoom out to uh you mentioned
uh Power and good power a few times so
if we can just even talk about it your
your book is called good power leading
positive change in our lives working
world
what is good Paul what's the essence of
good power so the essence of it would be
doing something hard or meaningful but
in a positive way
um I would also tell you I hope one day
I'm remembered for how I did things
not just for what I did I think that
could almost be more important and I
think it's a choice we can all make so
the essence to me of good power if I had
a contrast good to bad let's say would
be that first off
you have to embrace and navigate tension
this is the world we live in
and by embracing tension not running
from it you would Bridge divides that
unites people not divides them it's hard
thing to do but you can do it
you do it with respect which is the
opposite of fear a lot of people think
way to get things done is fear and then
the third thing would be you gotta
celebrate some progress versus
perfection
because I also think that's what stops a
lot of things from happening because you
know if you go for whatever your
definition of perfect is it can it's
either polarization or parallelization I
mean if something happens in there
versus no no I can
if don't worry about getting to that
actual exact end point if I keep taking
a step forward of progress really tough
stuff can get done and so my view of
that is like honestly I hope it can you
know I said it's like a memoir with
purpose I'm only doing it it was a
really hard thing for me to do because I
don't actually talk about all these
things and I had to nobody cares about
your like scientific description of this
they want the stories in your life to
bring it alive so it's a memoir with
purpose and in the writing of it it
became the power of me the power of we
and the power of us the idea that you
build a foundation when you're young
mostly from my work life the power of we
which says
I kind of in retrospect could see five
principles on how to really Drive change
um that would be done in a good way and
then eventually you could scale that the
power really of us which is what I'm
doing about finding better jobs for more
people now that I code this co-chair an
organization called 110. so that essence
of
navigate tensions do it respectfully
celebrate progress
and
give me indulge me one more minute these
sort of again it's retrospect that I I
didn't know this in the moment I had to
learn it I learned it I am blessed by a
lot of people I worked with and around
and
but some of the the principles like the
first one is says
if you're going to do something change
something do something you got to be in
service of something
being in service of is really different
than serving
super different
and like I just had my knee replaced
and I interviewed all these doctors you
can tell the difference of the guy who's
going to do a surgery hey my surgery is
fine I really don't care whether you can
walk and do the stuff you want to do
again but because my surgery is fine
your Hardware is good
I actually had some trouble
and I had a Doctor Who's like you know
this doesn't sound right I'm coming to
you like the surgery was fine it was me
that was reacting wrong to it and he
didn't care until I could walk again
okay there's a big difference in those
two things and it's true in any business
you have
um a waiter serves you food okay serves
his food he did his job or did he carry
he had a good time so that thought to be
in service of it took me a while to get
that like to try to write it to get that
across because I think it's like so
fundamental
if people were really in service of
something you got to believe that if I
fulfill your needs at the end of the day
mine will be fulfilled
and and that is that Essence that makes
it so different and then the second part
second principle is about building
belief which is I gotta hope you'll
voluntarily believe in a new future or
some alternate reality and you will use
your discretionary energy versus me
ordering you
y'all get so much more done then the
Third change in endure we kind of talked
about that earlier
focus more on the how and the skills
and then the pardon good Tech and being
resilient so anyways I I just felt that
like good Tech everybody's a tech
company I don't care what you do today
and there's some fundamental things you
got to do in fact pick up today's any
newspaper right chat GPT you're an AI
guy
all right I I believe one of the tenants
of good Tech is
it's like responsibility for the long
term it says so if you're going to
invent something you better look at its
upside and its downside like we did
Quantum computing
great a lot of great stuff right
materials development uh risk management
calculations endless lists one day on
the other side it can break encryption
that's bad thing so we worked equally
hard on all the algorithms that would
sustain quantum
I I think with chat okay great
there's equal in in there are people
working on it but like okay the things
that say hey
I can tell this was written with that
right because the implications on how
people learn right if this is not a
great thing if all it does is do your
homework that is not the idea of
homework as someone who likes to studies
hard but anyways you get my point it's
just the upside the downside and that
there could be much larger implications
that are much more difficult to predict
and that's our response absolutely to
really work hard to to to figure that I
was talking to AI ethics a decade ago
and I'm like why Won't Anyone listen to
us you know I'm it's that's another one
of those values things that you realize
hey if I want to bring technology in the
world I better bring it safely right and
that to me comes with when you're an
older company that's been around you
realize that Society gave you a license
to operate and it can take it away and
we see that happen to companies and
therefore you're like okay
like why I feel so strong about skills
hey if I'm going to bring in it's going
to create all these new jobs job
dislocation then I should help on trying
to help people get new skills anyways
that's a long answer to what good Tech
but the idea that there's kind of in
retrospect a set of principles you could
look at and maybe learn something from
my sort of rocky road through there
but it started with the power of we and
there's that big leap I think that
propagates to the things you're saying
which is the leap from focusing on
yourself to the focusing on others so
that having that empathy you've said at
some point in our lives and careers our
attention turns from ourselves to others
we still have our own goals but we
recognize that our actions affect many
and it is impossible to achieve anything
truly meaningful alone so it's do you I
think maybe you can correct me but
ultimate good power is about
collaboration and maybe in you know in a
large companies like delegation on on
great teams the ultimate good power is
actually doing something for society
that would be my ultimate definition
because about the results of the things
yeah but how it's done right the how
it's done and so
um
you know when you set a leap do you
think you people make a leap when they
go from thinking about themselves to
others do you think it's a leap or do
you think it kind of just is a sort of
slow point I think the leap is in
deciding that this is uh oh it's like
deciding that you will
care about others that this is it's like
it's like a leap of going to the gym for
the first time it's yes it takes a long
time to develop that and to actually
care but the decision that I'm going to
actually care about other human beings
yeah yeah okay or at least like yeah it
just feels like a deliberate action you
take of empathy Yeah because sometimes I
think it happens a little it's maybe not
as deliberate yeah it is a little bit
more gradual because it might happen
because you realize that geez I can't
get this done alone so I gotta have
other people with me but how do I get
them to help me do something so I think
it does help and happen a little bit
more gradually and as you get more
confident you start to not think so much
that it's about you and you start to
think about this other thing you're
trying to accomplish and so that's why I
felt it was a little more uh gradual I
also felt like I can remember so well
you know
this idea that um again now we're in the
80s 90s I'm a woman I'm in technology
and I was down in Australia at a
conference
and I gave this great speech again me
power of me you know I'm thinking give
this great speech financial services
this guy man walks up to me after I
think he's gonna like ask me some great
question and he said to me I wish my
daughter could have been here
and in that moment
and I and at that point up to then I'd
always been about look please don't
notice I'm a woman do not notice that I
am I just want to be recognized for my
work
crossing over from me to we
like it or not I was a role model for
some number of people
and
maybe I didn't want to be but that
didn't really matter
so I could either accept that and
embrace it or not I think it's a good
example of that transition I did have a
little Epiphany with that happening and
then I'm like okay because I would
always be like no I won't go on a
Women's Conference I won't talk here I
won't you know no no no
um but then I sort of realized wait a
second you know that'll say you cannot
be what you cannot see
and I I said to myself what oh wait a
second okay
I am in these positions I have a
responsibility too and it's two others
and that's what I meant I felt like it
can be somewhat gradual that you come
and you may have these like pivotal
moments that you see it but then you
feel it and you sort of move over that
transom into the power of Lee you're one
of the most powerful Tech leaders ever
and as you mentioned the word power you
know the old saying goes power corrupts
and absolute power corrupts absolutely
was there an aspect of power that was
uh
that you had to resist
its ability to corrupt your mind to um
to sort of delete dilute you into
thinking you're smarter than you are
that kind of all the ways that's very
dangerous I agree with I mean I think
you got to be careful who you surround
yourself with that's how I would answer
that question right and people who will
hold the mirror up to you can be done in
a very positive way by the way it
doesn't mean you know but uh that we're
sycophants you cannot have that right I
mean it's like I always say to someone
like um Hey listen to me tell me tell me
what would make me better or do
something or I have a husband that'll do
that for me quite easily by the way
you'll always tell me he's the one okay
I have been surrounded myself with a
number of people that will do that and I
think you have to have that I had a a
woman that worked with me for a very
long time and um at one time we were
competitors and then at some point she
started to work for me and stayed with
me for quite a while and she was one of
the few people that would tell me the
truth in in you know sometimes that's
like enough already and and she'd be
like do not roll your eyes at this and
you absolutely have got to have that and
and I think it also comes it'll go back
to my complete commit commitment to
inclusion and diversity because you've
got to have that variety around you
you'll get a better product and a better
answer at the end of the day and so that
to resist that Allure I think it's
around about who you surround yourself
with current politics would say that too
so you uh you write about in general you
value diversity a lot so can you speak
to almost like philosophically what does
diversity mean to you
diversity to me means
I'm gonna get a better product a better
answer
I value different views and so it's
inclusion so
I was saying inclusion diversity is a
number inclusion is a choice
and you can make that choice every
single day
it's a good line
I really believe and I've witnessed it
that I've had when my teams are diverse
I get a better answer my friends are
diverse I have a better life I mean all
these kinds of things and so
um I also believe it's like no Silver
Thread there's no easy way you have to
authentically believe it I mean do you
authentically believe that that
diversity is a good thing yeah but I I
believe the diversity it like broadly I
very broadly Define it yeah so like
there's you know sometimes the way
diversities looked at with the the way
diversity is used today is like surface
level characteristics which are also
important um but they're usually
reflective of something else which is a
diversity of background A diversity of
thought A diversity of struggle uh some
people that grow up middle class uh
versus poor different countries
different motivations all of that yeah
it's beautiful and different people from
very different walks of life get
together yeah it's beautiful to see but
like sometimes it's very difficult to
get
at that on a sheet of paper of of the
characteristics that defines the
difference I know so it is it's just
like oh I can't hire exactly for or if
I'm trying to and but I do know one
thing that when people say well I can't
find these kind of people I'm looking
for I'm like you're just not looking in
the right places right you have to open
them just you gotta really open up new
pools yeah right you have to think yeah
like everybody you don't have to have a
PhD just like you said yeah sorry to say
it you know I know I know it's very
valuable but you have trust me but well
it could it just like you said it could
even be a a negative so you mentioned uh
like for good power you are a CEO of uh
you are a CEO for a long time of a
public company were there times when
there was pressure to sacrifice
what is good for the world
um for the bottom line
in order to do it because there were a
lot of times for that I mean I I think
every company faces that today and that
um I always felt like there's so much
discussion about stakeholder capitalism
right do you just serve a shareholder do
you have multiple
I have always found and I've been very
vocal about that topic that um when I
participated The Business Roundtable
wrote up a new purpose statement that
had multiple stakeholders
I think it's common sense like if you're
going to be 100 years old you only get
there because you actually do at some
time balance all these different
stakeholders in what it is that you do
and short term long term all these
trade-offs and I always say people who
write about it they write about it black
and white but I have to live in a