Kind: captions
Language: en
a crazy thing in the kidnap business
we used to get asked by FBI leadership
when is this going to be over
and the answer would be when the bad
guys feel like they've gotten everything
they can now dissecting that statement
you're talking about when they feel
like they got everything they can so the
key to kidnapping negotiations are the
feelings of the bad guys we're talking
about feelings kidnappers feelings
which drives everything doesn't matter
what human endeavor it is
the following is a conversation with
Chris Voss former FBI hostage and crisis
negotiator and author of never split the
difference negotiating as if your life
depended on it
this is a Lex Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Chris Voss
what is it like negotiating for a
hostage with a kidnapper what is the
toughest part of that process
the toughest part is if it looks bad
from the beginning
and you gotta engage in a process anyway
what are the factors that make it bad
well that that makes you nervous that if
you're an observer situation where
there's General negotiation or it's a
hostage negotiation
what makes you think that this is going
to be difficult
if they want to make it look like
they're negotiating but they're not like
in a 2004 time frame
um Al Qaeda in Iraq was executing people
on camera for the publicity
and they wanted to make it look like
they were negotiating
so they'd come on and they say if you
don't get all the women out of Iraqi
women out of the the jails in Iraq in 72
hours we're going to kill a hostage
that was one of the demands in one of
the cases in that time frame
now first of all even if we'd have been
willing the US government Coalition
would have been willing to do that it
wouldn't be able to happen in 72 hours
so is it an impossible ask from the
beginning
and so then then that looks really bad
like they're they're trying to make it
they're trying to make it look like
they're talking reasonably and but
they're not so your hostage is in bad
shape there if they've made a demand
that you just even if you wanted to do
you couldn't do so then what makes that
very difficult is in kidnappings
especially
you're working with family members
you're coaching people
bad guys are in touch with family
members or if they're not directly in
touch with family members the other
thing that Al Qaeda was doing at that
time was they didn't give us a way to
talk to them they make they're making
statements in the media
but then not leaving their phone number
if you will yeah so that's one more
thing like they're intentionally
blocking you they're asking you to do
something you can't do
they're not giving you a way to talk to
them
so you gotta get with the family and
discuss with the family how you can
approach things now the family
definitely wants to know is this going
to help there's a bunch of cases like
that in that time frame
and you got to be honest with them it's
a long shot our chances here are slim
and none and when it's slim and none
it'll take slim but it's still very very
slim
and there were a number of people that
were killed in that time frame before
the tide finally got turned and it was
it was hard dealing with the families at
the time can you negotiate in public
versus like a direct channel in private
oh yeah bad guys pick the media
they're making statements in the media
so and that's a big clue they're they're
chant their channel of choice
tells you an awful lot and if they're
choosing the media then that means
there's people are trying to appeal to
that means in their view there's such a
thing as good media so if there's good
media there's bad media how do you make
it bad and we made it bad for them it
just unfortunately it had to go through
a number of iterations before they got
the message and quit
in that negotiation do you
think about the value of human life is
there a Dollar figure is there how do
you uh enumerate not enumerate quantify
the value of human life yeah that's uh
it's like Beauty Cindy had a beholder
so that was the first lesson on any
hostage negotiation really any
negotiation like it doesn't matter what
it is to you matters what it is to the
other side one of the things especially
in your in your conversation I listened
to with that Andrew
um by the way you guys uh I I another
thing I really liked about that
conversation first of all I think the
world of him Andrew huberman yeah Andrew
Ewan and uh You released it on my
birthday I appreciate that that was a
nice birthday perfectly just for you
yeah yeah nice job thank you
but uh empathy is in the eye of the
beholder uh in every negotiation whether
it's over car a house
collaboration in your company with the
bad guys how does the other side see it
now the nice thing about kidnapping for
ransom if they're if there's an actual
Ransom demand it's an actual demand
is it's a mercenary's business they're
gonna take what they could get and they
tend to be really good
at figuring out how much money somebody
has so
and again I'll keep drawing business
analogies
you're looking for a job with an
employer
there's a market price of the job
and then there's what the employer can
pay you
now maybe the market price of the job
Market's 150 Grand employer can pay 120.
but it's a great job you know we're
talking about Elon uh a minute ago
like I'd work minimum wage to follow him
around yeah you know that would be worth
it what are the value other than the
dollars and how hard is it to get the
dollars and how quickly can you get to
them
those these are all things that the bad
guys are good and kidnapping are good at
figuring out so
the value of human life to them is going
to be what can they get a crazy thing in
the kidnap business
we used to get asked by FBI leadership
when is this going to be over
NES would be when the bad guys feel like
they've gotten everything they can now
dissecting that statement
you're talking about when they feel
like they got everything they can so the
key to kidnapping negotiations are the
feelings of the bad guys we're talking
about feelings kidnappers feelings
which drives everything doesn't matter
what human endeavor it is
so it's not reason it's emotion
there's no such thing as reason
I should say for a little bit of context
I just talked uh yesterday with a guy
named Sam Harris yeah I don't know if
you know Sam but Sam and because I Was
preparing for a conversation with you I
talked to him about empathy versus
reason and he lands heavily on reason
yeah empathy is uh somewhere between
useless and erroneous and leaves you
astray and is not effective that reason
is the only way uh forward well it's
draw some fine lines there and the Two
Fine Lines I would draw is uh first what
is your definition of empathy and then
secondly
uh how do people actually make up their
minds and I'm and I'm going to flip it
I'm going to go with how people make up
their minds you make up your mind based
on what you care about
period
that makes
reason emotion based
what do you care about you start with
what you care about you see some guy
swimming out in off the coast of the
ocean and you see a shark coming up
behind him
who are you cheering for
if it's Adolf Hitler out there you're
cheering for the shark you might
actually feel bad for shark because it's
gonna it's gonna taste bad
who do you care about you mean the human
will taste bad yeah you you know if he
eats Adolf Hitler you know they're gonna
leave a bad taste in your mouth even if
you're a shark
so you're making up your mind on every
circumstance it's based on what you care
about yeah so then what does that do to
reason your reason is based on what you
care about from the beginning
now then empathy
if you define it as sympathy which it
was never meant to be sympathy ever
you know I uh
etymology I think is the word I keep
getting etymology and entomology mixed
up etymology being right the the where
words came from the origin entomology
being bugs
I got it right so
I like etymology where did something
come from also like entomology anyway uh
etymology the orig my understanding from
my research
uh the original definition of empathy
was an interpretation of a German Ward
where people were trying to figure out
what the artist was trying to convey it
was about assessing art
and so it was always about understanding
where somebody was coming from but not
sharing necessarily
the same thing
so then when I was with the FBI and I
first started collaborating with Harvard
Bob manukan wrote a book
Beyond winning second chapters the
tension between empathy and
assertiveness
still the best chapter on empathy I've
ever read anywhere
and Bob wrightson's book Bob was the
head of the program on negotiation he's
also agreed to be interviewed for a
documentary uh that about me and my
company
that hasn't been released yet but it
should be released sometime this year
what's the name of the documentary
tactical empathy good name
so Bob's definition of empathy and said
not agreeing
or even liking the other side
don't even gotta like them don't gotta
agree with them just straight
understanding where they're coming from
and articulating it which requires no
agreement whatsoever
that becomes a very powerful tool like
ridiculously powerful and if it if
sympathy or Compassion or agreement are
not included you can be empathic with
anybody I was thinking about this uh
when I was getting ready to sit down and
talk to you because you use the word
empathy a lot
um potent
I can be empathic with Putin easy it's
easy
I don't agree with where he's coming
from I don't uh agree with this
methodology
early on the Ukraine Russian war
I saw an article that was very
dismissive of Russia
that said Russia is basically Europe's
gas station
and I thought all right
so if you're in charge
and the way you feed your people
is via an industry that the entire world
is trying to quit
the whole world is trying to get out of
fossil fuels but that's how you feed
your people if you don't come up with an
answer to that the people that you've
taken the responsibility for are going
to die alone in the colds in the dark
they're going to freeze and they're
gonna die
all right so that doesn't mean that I
agree with where it's coming from or any
of his means
but where where is how does this guy see
things in his distorted word
you're never going to get through to
somebody like that in a conversation
unless you can demonstrate to them you
understand where they're coming from
whether or not you agree
early 90s last century I'm a last
century guy I'm an old dude
I refer to myself as a last century guy
also a deeply flawed human yeah
so
um
Tara's case New York City
civilian Court terrorism does not have
to be tried in military tribunals that's
a very bad idea it was always bad
the FBI was always against it
I'm getting ready we have Muslims
testifying in open court against the
legitimate Muslim cleric
the guy that was on trial
had the credentials as a legitimate
Muslim cleric the people who were
testifying against them
didn't think you should be advocating
murder of innocent people
we'd sit down with them Arab Muslims
Egyptians mostly
and I would say to them
you believe that there's been a
succession of American governments for
the last 200 years that are anti-islamic
and they'd shake their head and go
yeah
and that be the start of the
conversation that's empathy
you believe this to be the case I never
said I agreed I never said I disagreed
but I showed him that I wasn't afraid of
their beliefs I was so unafraid of them
that I was willing to just State them
and not disagree or contradict because I
I would say that and then I'd shut up
and let him react and I never had to say
here's why you're wrong I never gave my
point of view
every single one of them that testified
that's empathy not agreeing with where
the other side is coming from
now I'm not sure how Sam would define it
but common vernacular is its sympathy
and its compassion and that's when it
becomes useless
and there is a gray area maybe you can
comment on it is sometimes a drop of
compassion
helps make that empathy more effective
in the conversation
so you're just saying you believe
X
doesn't quite form a strong of a bond
with the other person
you're imagining it doesn't maybe you're
right yes I'm imagining it doesn't I'm
imagining you need to show that you're
on the same side
that you're but you you need to Signal a
little bit about your actual beliefs at
least in that moment even if those that
signaling is a is uh
not as deep as it sounds but at first
you know basically petting the person on
the back and saying we're on the same
side brother you know that's that's what
most people
when they're really learning the concept
that's the basic human reaction yeah and
in application especially in highly
adversarial situations
like
I I need I need a regular guy Muslim but
how's that guy gonna say buy it if I
like you know do it I'm on your side
I've been there I feel you no no no no
no
people get conned by that so much like
if we're on opposite sides of the table
and I try to act like I'm not on the
opposite side of the table that makes me
disingenuous
so
I would rather
be honest my you know my currency is
integrity
and at some point in time if you go like
you know where I'm coming from my answer
is going to be like look
I can agree on maybe where we're going
but if we're talking about you know am I
on your side now as a human being I want
to see you survive and thrive not at my
expense
I think the world is full of opportunity
I'm optimistic and again more than
enough reason for saying that
is enough for you for both of us
so I got no problem with you getting
yours
you know just don't take it out of my
head and I'm going to be honest about it
about both of those things I'm not
interested in you taking it out of my
hide I think there's plenty here for
both of us now I don't I don't need to
be on your side except in a in a human
sense but I don't do I have to side with
you of the war no or
the Howard Distributing the stock or how
much you get paid or how much you make
off this car
I think people my experience as a Layman
um is that empathy is not got a downside
that you don't you don't need me
to act like I'm on your side for us to
make a great deal
great deal well we'll talk about two
things a great deal and a great
conversation right they're usually
they're often going to be the same thing
but at times they're going to be
different that's a you mentioned
Vladimir Putin there is some zoom level
at which you do want to say we're on the
same side you said the human level it's
possible to say kind of zoom out
and say that we're all in this together
not we Slavic people we Europeans we but
we human beings we're on the same Planet
same planet right
several years ago and his name is
evidently been mud now
um but he was very nice to me a lawyer
here in town named Tom Girardi and no
shortage of bad reporting on him now I
have absolutely no idea if any of it's
true I do know that in my interaction
with him he was always a gentleman to me
and was very generous
um when he'd get into conversations with
people he'd always say like you know
let's look at 10 years from now
where we could both be in a phenomenal
place together
now let's work our way back from there
that's a good line yeah and then you
know I saw him do it in simulations he I
was teaching the USC
we are to function together
and a Gentleman uh at that time told me
that that who he was and it was really
influential so I walked up to the guy
cold and I said hey you know I'm gonna
come in and talking to my class at USC
he didn't know me other than the fact
that we had mutual acquaintance and he
graciously consented to come in
and he said what do you want me to talk
about I said look dude just from your
success here it doesn't matter what you
talk about
you know either I'm going to agree or
I'm going to disagree or I'm going to
learn from it my students are going to
learn from it so students want to role
play with them you know they dispute and
let's do a negotiation every single time
you go to pick a point in the future
where we're both happy
10 years 20 years from now and let's
work our way back not a hostage
negotiator same thing
I call into a bank
bad guy picks up on the picks up on the
phone
and I'm gonna say I want you to live
you know I want to see you survive this
you know whatever else goes with that
let's pick a point in the future that
we're both good with
and then we work our way back and people
make also
um we're talking before about emotion
and what you care about
people make their decisions based on
their vision of the future
like without question yeah uh there's a
I think there's a Hindu temple in the
United States
being a has been or being assembled same
way that the Hindu temples were in India
A Thousand Years Ago by hand volunteers
by hand
that these people are knocking
themselves out for a place in Paradise a
vision of the future what you will go
through today if the future
portends uh what you want you you'll go
through incredible things today so it's
a vision of the future
so you have to try to paint a a vision
of the future that the uh the person
you're negotiating with will like
just tough to do let's find out what
their vision of the future is and then
remove yourself as a threat sure you
know if we can collaborate together
at all if you think that I could do
anything at all to help you
to that point and you know Integrity is
my currency
I'm not gonna lie to you which gets back
before that I lied to you about whether
or not I'm on your side you know right
now not at the moment we're on opposite
size defense
that's not going to stop us from being
together in the future
inside you're going to say wow well you
didn't lie to me about today maybe you
won't lie to me about tomorrow
so going back to world leaders for
example whether it's uh Vladimir
zolenski or Vladimir Putin you don't
think it closes off their mind to show
that
you have a different opinion
depending upon when you showed it is
that is are you arguing from the
beginning or are you displaying
understanding from the beginning I don't
think it stops you from being
adversarial that was a thing about
um
uh manukins
a chapter in his book the tension
between empathy and assertiveness
I remember reading that reading that uh
name of the chapter thinking like ah you
know
in my business there is no tension
and then I got into it and I read I
thought this is a red herring
he's drawing people in because his
entire chapter is that empathy puts you
in a position to assert
and that there is no tension it's a
sequencing issue
and that's why again I think it's it was
written for lawyers yeah sequencing
issue so timing is everything so you
emphasize the importance of in terms of
sequencing and priority uh of listening
of truly listening to the other person
I'm sorry what'd you say that was a bad
joke
your timing is just perfect how do you
how do you listen
how do you truly listen to another human
being how do you notice them how do you
really hear them
I always hated the term active listening
if anything it's proactive
and as soon as you start to trying to
anticipate where somebody's going you're
dialed in more
um because along the way
either you're congratulating yourself
for being right
or when suddenly they say something that
surprises you you really notice it like
that's not what I expected
you're dialed in you're listening so
it's it's
proactive and then
one of the reasons
you know we name the book tactical
empathy
um name the name of the book never split
the difference but we're talking about
tactical empathy
uh calibrated emotional intelligence
what's calibrated by first it was
experiences hostage negotiators but and
we've come to find out that our
experience is hostage negotiators
is backed up by Neuroscience another
reason why I listened to Andrew
huberman's podcast all the time heavy
heavy heavy heavy on the neuroscience
and so then emotional intelligence
calibrated by what we know about
Neuroscience what do we know about
neuroscience and I'll talk about it from
a Layman's perspective and and to even
say wheeze is an arrogant thing you know
human beings I I didn't do the research
I'm scooping up as much of it as I can
as a Layman
the brain's largely negative
I think there's ample evidence people
would argue with you as to what the
wiring is and what does what
and the limbic system and all of that
but
the brain is basically 75 negative it's
an alignment I make that contention
number one number two
the best way to deactivate negativity is
by calling it out
and I could say look I don't I don't
want you to be offended by what I'm
getting ready to say
that's a denial your guard is up you're
getting ready to get mad
if I say what I'm getting ready to say
is probably going to offend you
now you relax a little bit
and you go all right what is it and then
I say it whatever it is and you're going
to be like oh that wasn't that bad
because
we knew from hostage negotiation by
calling out the negativity deactivated
and then number of Neuroscience
experiments have been done right and
left by calling out negativity
deactivating the negativity
calling out ahead of time so like
acknowledging that this is
the this is go ahead of time that this
is going to hurt
the experiments that I've seen
um have been when the negativity was
inflicted and then having a person that
was being inflicted upon simply identify
it just identify yeah what are you
feeling I'm angry and the anger goes
away
it's tough because I've had a few and
again we're dancing between things but
I've had a few conversations where anger
arose in the guests I spoke with
yeah and I'm not sure
identifying it
that that that's like leaning into it
and going into the depths
because
that's going to the depths of some
emotional
psychological thing they're going
through that I'm not sure I want to
explore that Iceberg with a little ship
we got I
um it's a you have to decide do you want
to avoid it
or do you want to lean into it it's a
tough choice it's the elephant in a room
it is an alpha in the room it is an
outfit especially when I think that's
the big difference between conversations
and negotiations negotiation ultimately
who is looking for closure and
resolution I think General conversations
like this
is more exploring
there's not necessarily a goal
like if you were to put like if I had to
put a goal for this conversation there's
no real goal it's curiously exploring
ideas
so that'll gives you freedom to not call
out the elephant
for for time you could be like all right
let's go to the Next Room get a snack
and come back to the elephant right
all right so I I'd make a tiny
adjustment on the negotiation definition
sure because you said I think um
seeking closure
um
you use two words enclosure was one of
them goals maybe another well yeah what
is what is negotiation well I would say
seeking collaboration
and because closure kind of puts a
little bit of a finality to it a real
problem in any negotiations always
implementation
that's why we say yeses I say we yes
there's nothing without how
and and yes and it's at its very best
it's only temporary aspiration it's
aspirational it's usually counterfeit
so if you're looking for yeah that's a
good lie yes it's usually a counterfeit
it's aspirational without the how yeah
it's just a good line yeah thank you and
we're working on it I was practicing I
in front of the mirror 14. pretty good
you got a bright future I think
you should write a book or something
okay
yeah
[Laughter]
uh your book is uh excellent by the way
thanks appreciate that what am I doing
here anyway this and Earth is on you
with you I don't know
I'm collaborating
why me though why why'd you why'd you
want to talk to me I've heard you speak
in a few places I was like this this is
a fascinating human
um I think on clubhouse and different
places then I'll listen to some YouTube
stuff and this is
just you've meet people that are
interesting that's that's what I love
doing with this podcast is just
exploring the mind of an interesting
person
you notice people sometimes you
sometimes as like a homeless person
that's outside of 7-Eleven I notice who
are you yeah yeah yeah it's fascinating
it doesn't like I don't look at the
resumes and the credentials and stuff
like that it's just being able to notice
a person because I've been leafing
through the different choices of the
podcast sure the uh the young lady that
um only fans and the sex workers that's
a fascinating human being like I want to
know what makes that person Tech a
thousand percent if that's anything
about her is her world view is almost
entirely different than mine and that's
always interesting to talk to a person
who just is happy
flourishing but sees the world and the
set of values she has is completely
different
and and is also not argumentative is
accepting of other World Views it's
beautiful to explore that yeah no
kidding I would agree and then yeah
thought provoking because I consider
myself
um
uh the word I was looking for before is
abundant I think it's an abundant world
so I'm pretty optimistic
I consider myself I don't know happy
exactly describes it but yeah you know
I'm so then if I'm happy optimistic
abundant I got a world view and then you
run into somebody that has a vastly
different world view and they're happy
and and they think it's abundant too
and you're like what is going on in your
head or mine or what am I missing huh
yes that's fascinating and the pie grows
which is useful for kind of negotiation
when you paint a picture of a future if
you're optimistic about that feature
does it kind of feeling like we're both
going to win here exactly and that's
easy we live in a world where both
people can win yeah and and in point of
fact that's the case although it's a lot
of people want us to think otherwise
mostly because of the negativity that I
was talking about before so the brain is
generally cynical yeah my description of
it is
the pessimistic caveman survived and
we're descendants of the pessimists yeah
you're optimistic yeah I got eaten by a
saber-toothed tiger
yeah but on the flip side the Optimus
seem to be the ones that actually build
stuff these days there's the switch like
so at what point in time do we catch on
because the difference between survival
and success mindset
the success mindset is highly optimistic
so where do we switch or how do we stay
switched from survival to success that's
the challenge
yeah somewhere we stopped being eaten by
saber-toothed tigers and started
building bridges and buildings and
computers and companies and we started
to experience we got enough data back
to collaborate
and we stopped listening to our amygdala
and we started listening to our gut
let me just to return briefly to
terrorists uh what do you think about
the policy of not negotiating with
terrorists well that's not the policy
first of all
now everybody thinks that's the policy
yeah it hasn't been in the policy since
2002 when Bush 43 signed a National
Security Presidential Directive nspd the
time it was nspd12
which basically said
um we won't make concessions that
doesn't mean we won't talk
so I'm in Colombia at the same time and
I have been intimately involved with the
signing of him signing that document
I knew exactly what it said and I and he
didn't inherit it from somebody else he
signed
and I'm in Colombia
and the number two in the embassy says
last night on TV the president of the
United States said we don't negotiate
with terrorists are you calling a
president United States a liar
and I remember thinking like all right
so
he probably said that and that's not on
the document that he signed
so I said look it you know
I'm familiar with what he's signed and
it that's not what it says well you know
and so the argument but that's always
been the sound bite that everybody likes
we don't negotiate with terrorists
depends upon your definition of
negotiation if it's just communication
we negotiate with them all the time
number one number two
like every president has made some
bone-headed deal with the bad guys
like Obama released five high-level
Taliban leaders from Guantanamo in
exchange for an AWOL soldier that we
immediately threw in jail
and I thought that was a horrible deal
and that would that's putting terrorists
back on a Battlefield
and then Trump turned around and topped
it by putting 5 000 tariffs back on the
battlefield
so we haven't had a president that stick
has stuck to that on either side of the
aisle since people started throwing that
out as a sound bike what do you think of
that negotiation forget terrorists but
the global negotiation like with with
Vladimir Putin the recent negotiation
over prisoners
The Exchange the breeding Gardener is
there a way to do that negotiation
successfully first of all I agree with
the idea that she was wrongfully
detained and that she had and she didn't
deserve to be in jail and
that US Government there should be no
second-class citizens ever and whether
you're an a WNBA player or you're just
some bonehead that walked into the wrong
situation your government should not
abandon you ever ever
now what they do
um in the meantime
there should have been a negotiation
they were desperate to make a deal at a
bad time they'd been offered far better
deals than prisoner swaps earlier and
turned them down
and then he gets turned up and thank God
for Brittany Griner that um the public
got enough attention they kept pressure
on the administration they made a deal
now governments want to make those kind
of deals that's fine as long as it
because that was basically a political
negotiation you're putting five thousand
Taliban back on a Battlefield
that ain't negotiating with another
government you're putting five of them
back on a battlefield that ain't
negotiating with another government
that's directly contradicting this thing
that you claimed and those were all bad
deals now was it Brittany grinder thing
a bad deal I think it was great for her
if I was in the middle of it would have
been better
and she still would have come home yeah
there's some technical aspects of that
negotiation what do you think is the
value just the link on it of meeting in
person for the negotiation I think it's
a great idea can I just just follow that
tangent along there's a war in Ukraine
now it's been going on over a year
it's uh for me personally giving my life
uh stories is is a is a deeply personal
one and I'm
returning back to that area of the world
that was there
uh Vladimir zielinski said he doesn't
want to talk to uh to Vladimir Putin
do you think they could get in a room
together
and uh
say you were there in a room with Putin
and zelenski and Biden is uh sitting in
the back drinking a cocktail or maybe he
is at the table participating how how is
it possible through negotiation through
the art of conversation to find peace in
this very tense geopolitical
uh conflict
I think it's eminently possible I think
the getting people together in person
has always been a good idea now how many
times who's getting them together under
what circumstances and how many times
you get them together
the um
the documentary the human factor about
the Mideast peace negotiations mostly
through the 90s mostly under the Clinton
administration
got kicked off uh under Bush 41.
and then the documentary continues
through Trump
but just touching basically on it but
they're getting air fat and and the
different
Israeli Prime Ministers together in
person
and these guys do not want to talk to
each other and depend upon the prime
minister
you know the the mere thought of being
on the same planet with Arafat was
offensive
and they started getting these guys
together in person regularly and they
started seeing each other's human beings
and they started realizing that there
was enough room on the planet for them
and that people dying
was stupid
and they were and they would slowly work
things out by getting these guys
together in person
so how long does it take who's hosting
it
but it's a good idea but the skill of
uh achieving that thing that you talk
about a lot which is empathy and I would
say in that case not just empathy but
empathy plus a bit you might disagree
with this but a drop of compassion in
there but I think compassion compassion
is helpful
um but it's not essential
like if you just know where I'm coming
from
like it it the thought the feeling of
being
understood yeah pardon understood that's
powerful is yeah and and again I know I
picked the vast majority of this up on
on Andrews
um podcast but it picked it up in other
places because early on
when we were putting a book together a
tall Roz uh the writer uh my son
uncredited co-author so the books really
uh collaboration between me my son
Brandon and Tall Ross
and we're driving for that's right you
know when somebody feels like what
you've said is completely their position
they say that's right
now you're right but that's right
so tall says you know I think I think
what's Happening Here is you're
triggering a subtle Epiphany in somebody
so I'm like all right I'll buy that so I
start looking up the Neuroscience of the
feeling of epiphany
getting ahead of
oxytocin and serotonin
oxytocin is a bonding drug
you bond to me to you when you feel
completely understood by me you bond to
me
then in one of the relationship podcasts
that I'm listening to on on Andrew
um it says oxytocin inclines people to
tell the truth
you're more honest all right so you feel
deeply understood by me you bond to me
and you start getting more honest with
me
serotonin
the neurochemical satisfaction
Epiphany you feel oxytocin and serotonin
being understood all right I got you
bonding to me I got you being more
honest with me and I got you feeling
more satisfied so you want less
what more do you want out of a
negotiation
of course there's already with uh
leaders and great negotiators there's a
walls built up defense mechanisms
against that right there's you're
resisting you're resisting this basic
chemistry but yes you should have that
um you should work towards that kind of
empathy
and I I personally believe I I don't
actually understand why but I've
Observer time and time again but getting
in a room together
and really talking whether privately or
publicly but really talking
uh and like this so I'll I'll comment on
this so right now this is being recorded
and a few folks will hear this but when
you really do a good job of this kind of
conversation you forget there's cameras
right and that's much better than there
being even a third person in the room
but often when um world leaders meet
those like press or there's others in
the room like as you know man-to-man or
man to woman you have to like meet like
in like in a saloon just the two of you
and talk there's some intimacy and power
to that to achieve the the if you're
also willing to couple that with empathy
to really hear the other person yeah
yeah I don't know what that is that's
like a deep deep intimacy that happens
and I think there's actually
because we get access in a Black Swan
group all the time like how do you you
know Zoom that's bad you know because
you don't have the same visual feedback
on zoom and that's not true like you and
I I see you from the waist up right now
if we're on Zoom I'd be looking at you
from the waist up I'm not wearing pants
yeah
for the internet I apologize for that
sorry yeah yeah yeah you only see a
small portion
usually that's usually where I go but uh
anyway
I'm glad we both have ridiculous I
appreciate it
but what makes this different in person
I I actually think
um I think there's energy
that we're unable we don't have the
instrumentation to Define yet
and I think that there's a feel I think
there's an actual energetic feel that
changes and just because we don't we
again just because we can't
measure it
doesn't mean it's not there
yeah I would love to figure out what
that is uh folks that are working on
virtual reality are trying to figure out
that what that is during the pandemic
everybody was on Zoom zoom and Microsoft
everybody was trying to figure out how
do we replicate that I'm trying to
understand how to replicate that because
it sure is not fun to travel across the
world just to talk to Snowden or Putin
or zelenski I'd love to do it over Zoom
it's not the same it's not the same no
it's not the same
I'd go in a room with Putin you would go
I would yeah a thousand percent
I get it that's right Adam
that's right
well first you would give him a that's
right probably ah getting a given us to
see see that and here's the issue that
trips everybody up in negotiation the
difference between hearing and speaking
the same words are vastly different
and what I'm looking for is what I'm the
responses I'm getting out of you
because if you if you can't first that's
right especially like if you can't
appreciate what that really means
hearing it is unsatisfying so those two
words are really important to you talk
about this in your book what is why is
that so what does that's right mean why
is it important well it means that what
you just heard you think is
unequivocably the truth
like it's dead on it hit the target it's
it's a bullseye
and it's been a topic of discussion
especially between my son and I a lot
like what happens
the oxytocin bonding moment
and he his contention has always been
like Donald Trump is the poster child of
what it means because
Donald Trump's been addressing an
audience you know he's he's in a debate
with Hillary or he's given a speech
someplace
and when the people that are devoted to
him
when they believe that he what he's just
said is completely right it's insightful
they look at him or they look at the TV
and they go that's right
and it's a it's what people say when
they're bought into what they just heard
now if you're not convinced of the way
that Donald Trump's followers are bonded
to him
and he he also just like this in my view
destroys the idea of common ground
because when he first started to run for
president the pundits
all said eyes a New Yorker
nobody in the Republican party is going
to like him it's Middle America you know
it's blue collar you know it's regular
common folks
Factory workers
then I gotta like Trump because he's
from New York and he went to Ward and
he's an Ivy Leaguer and he's a son of a
wealthy Real Estate Mogul and he had a
million dollars handed to him when he
got out of college
he you know he's born with a silver
Spruce spoon in his mouth the rank and
five Republicans and never gonna accept
this guy
based on common ground
look how look how smart that was do you
think he's a good negotiator do you
think Donald Trump is a good negotiator
uh no
I think he's a great marketer
if you look at his negotiation track
record all right so I started following
Donald Trump in the 80s when I was in
New York I'm a last century guy he's the
last century guy we've got mutual
acquaintances
the minister that married him to milor
Maples was a friend of mine in a close
friend of mine and in 1998 I threw a
fundraiser in his apartment a Trump
Tower that he attended
so
um no shortage of mutual friends we went
to the same church
still have mutual mutual acquaintances
friends
I don't know and watched his track
record negotiation history
which is exactly his track record with
North Korea where are we with North
Korea what was the deal that he made
with North Korea
see your answer is the same as everybody
else's
well I remember it started out with a
lot of fanfare yeah but I don't know
what happened because nothing ever
happens as more public Fanfare so
marketing minded presentation with a
bang if he doesn't cut the deal in a
short period a really short period of
time he moves on
and everybody wonders what had happened
because it was so much fanfare at the
beginning now
at the beginning him even opening that
dialogue with North Korea was masterful
like I was I was such a fan when you got
a president of the United States
that is willing to sit down and talk
with the leader of another Nation when
every other president all our advisors
are saying the leader of North Korea is
beneath you you cannot dignify him by
responding to him directly and
consequently
the Trump Administration inherits a can
of worms
that has been simmering for 30 years
he didn't get us into that and he and he
opened up a dialogue where nobody else
was capable of opening a dialogue and it
just went away
nobody knows what happened
and there was no deal made
now great negotiators make deals
what do you think about these
accusations that he's a narcissist
if you're a narcissist does that help
you or hurt you
is there a more popular term these days
than narcissist ever like everybody's a
narcissist everybody you don't like is a
narcissist like the homeless guy Down on
the Corner he's a narcissist that's why
he's there
yeah it's lost meaning for you a little
bit Yeah and first of all most
psychological terms
as a hostage negotiator and really we
were never into psychology
and we steered away from because
psychology is at best is soft science
if it's not informed these days if it's
not informed by
real studies or
um
Neuroscience the guys that I'm impressed
with these days psychologists
neuroscientists now I wanna I'm I'm
interested in that that that guy or gal
but then psychology convention do you
get them all together and they all agree
but also the interesting thing about
psychology is each individual person
is way more complicated than the
category psychology tries to create and
there's something about the human brain
the moment you classify somebody as a
narcissist or depressed or bipolar
or insane in any kind of way for some
reason you don't use you give yourself a
convenient excuse not to see them as a
complicated human being to empathize
with them I had that when I was talking
to I did an interview with Kanye West
and then there's a lot of popular
opinions about
um him being mentally unwell and so on
right and I felt that that kind of way
of thinking is a very convenient way of
thinking to ignore the fact that he's a
human being
that again wants to be understood and
heard
and that's the only way you can have
that conversation
yeah I agree completely that's right
I feel so close to you now
am I because I'm not wearing pants
all right so uh you're funnier than I am
it bothers me all right
I'll say something stupid soon enough
don't worry about it uh but he said now
we were talking about uh terrorists and
non-negotiating with terrorists uh is
there something nice job going all the
way back to where that rabbit hole
started there's where rabbit where Alice
in Wonderland right now the the is there
something about walking away
of not negotiating is that is there
power in that all right so it depends
upon whether or not yeah
you're doing it with Integrity or a
tactic to start with
um and then also
uh hostage negotiators are successful 93
of the time
kind of across the board
which means that there's seven percent
of the time is going to go bad
and that was my old boss Gary nessner I
learned so much from Gary
but one of the phrase that he used over
and over and over again until I finally
worked the case and went bad was this is
going to be the best chance of success
best chance of success and then
something went bad and I remember
thinking like well best chance of
success it's no guarantee of success
so your question is are there
negotiations you should walk away from
if you got no shot at success then then
don't negotiate
and there you have to accept the fact
that some deals you never you're never
going to make you know we teach you my
company it's not a sin to not get the
deal it's a sin to take a long time to
not get the deal
and you know Gary in His Infinite Wisdom
you know they they realized that there
was something called suicide by Cobb
and that it might have Gary was very
much into clusters of behavior he kept
us away from psychological terms and
there would be clusters of behavior that
would be high risk indicators and he and
he wrote a block of instruction called
high risk indicators
which meant if you start seeing this
stuff show up this thing's probably
going bad and you're going to need to
you're going to need to recognize that
from the very beginning and adjust
accordingly and it's the same way in in
business and personal life I'm talking
to the head of a a marketing company I
have tremendous respect for I admire
that what this guy in this company does
started from scratch
he borrowed space in the back of a
drugstore
to start his company
and now it's usually successful and he's
laying out to me
that he finally had to confront
um a potential client
and walk away from
him and he said how do you think I
handle this and my answer was thousand
percent correct and as a matter of fact
the behavior that he indicated he's a
type
and you should have walked away sooner
than you did
because this guy was playing here the
whole time Al Qaeda 2004 they're playing
us they're not negotiating
we need we called them out on it
I don't think you're negotiating
you wouldn't say it exactly like that
but that was that was absolutely the
approach
you know confront people on their
behavior in a respectful way
and signal that you're willing to walk
away and mean it a thousand percent and
mean it isn't that terrifying I mean
it's scary because you don't want to
really walk away or do you have to
really want to walk away well yeah this
this gets core values your view of
reality if it's an abundant world it's
not scary to walk away
if it's a finite world with limited
opportunities then it's horrifying
but you have to uh use that world view
to be willing to actually walk away
here
it could be walking away from a lot of
money
it could be walking away from something
that's gonna hurt people
because if you lose a hostage
yeah well but if they're not gonna let
the hostage out yeah suicide by cop they
let them go
the seven percent how do most
negotiations fail
the bad guys were never there to make a
deal in the first place if it was
suicide by cop
if they were there
to if they're on a killing Journey
it's an Israeli phrase
um if they're on a killing journey and
the actions that they're currently
engaged in are part of that killing
Journey
killing journey is there advice you can
give about you mentioned uh
israel-palestine the Middle East
taking on a few conversations on that
topic is there hope for that part of the
world and from that hope is there some
advice you could lend yeah I think I
think I think there's hope there's
then I got friends on both sides
and um also
when I got my after I left the FBI
um most people listen to this probably
not going to remember who Rodney
Dangerfield was oh come on buddy still
doesn't get in your respect yeah yeah
yeah and and uh New York is he a New
Yorker I think he was the New York I
like Jersey or something yeah
yeah and um he did a movie a long time
ago called back to school he went back
to school he's an old guy back to school
so I went back to school after I left
the FBI I did get
um a masters at Harvard Kennedy
and that's where you know I'm running
across people on both sides of that
and when they could talk
they said let's start from the promise
that we both sides want a better life
for our kids
which is his version
that I was telling you um earlier from
Tom gerardi let's pick a point in the
future yeah that we're both happy with
and they found us they could talk
you know we all right so it might not be
better for us how do we make it better
for our kids
and that that's where the the Hope
derives from because I think both sides
ultimately wanted to be better for their
kids which is why
they still engage in interactions and
which is why I think the leadership
regardless of how
compromised they might be on either side
there are few straight players in the
game in the Middle East
or anywhere for that matter
um
but they want a better future for their
kids you get people to agree that you
want a better future for your kids now
you start talking about well how do we
work our way back from that and then all
right so we got a mutual point in the
future the israeli-palestinian
negotiations
also uh for me interesting because you
mentioned Clubhouse about almost two
years ago now
um when Israeli Israel was shelling Gaza
they hit the UPI office
you know they were hitting they they got
fed up with the rocket attacks from
Hamas and of course Hamas is putting
rockets in the UPI office or the AP
office whichever press office it was
there how's that office going to be
there otherwise Hamas is running a show
you're not going to run that office
unless they let you unless you let them
store weapons there that's just part of
the game
and and where are they gonna are they
gonna storm in specially designated
ammunition dumps no they're going to put
them in schools they're going to put
them in hospitals they're going to put
them in all places that when Israel had
some they're going to look really bad
so after a while Israel gets fed up they
start shelling Gaza and they're hitting
these places
a friend of mine Nicole Benham
is um hosting rooms on clubhouse and she
says you got to come on the vitriol is
killing me these are all turned into
screaming matches nobody's talking to
anybody
I said all right cool we'll go on we'll
we'll do it and watch we won't have a
single argument
we'll invite people on from both sides
the only there was one rule
before you started to describe what you
thought of the other side
you had to say before I disagree with
you here's what I think your position is
and you got to continue to stay at the
other side's position until they agree
that you've gotten
now what happened
no agreement and no arguments
that was what we were really going for
we wanted to show that people
on both sides in one of their emotional
time frames if your only requirement was
you had to State the other side's
position first
nobody got out of control
did it work
that's exactly what happened not one we
wanted to show people that you can have
conversations that do not devolve
into screaming matches with vitriol
talking about how you're dedicated to
the destruction of the other side just
first
see if you can outline where they're
coming from that's really impressive
because I've just having seen on
clubhouse people
which part of the reason I liked
Clubhouse you get to hear voices from
all sides they were emotionally intense
right
it was uh I mean I was I'm sweating just
in the build up of your story here I
thought it's gonna go could go to hell
but you're saying it kind of worked now
to one person lost control of the two
sides the people that were speaking on
behalf of the Israelis were a little
better yeah at articulating uh
supportive positions for the
Palestinians
most of the people who want to speak up
on behalf of the Palestinians they just
they they'd want to start in like you're
doing this and I'd say no no no you can
go there just not yet before you go that
you say that all you want
before you go there
you've got to try to articulate to them
where they're coming from they got to
tell you got it right and what would
consistently happen
is there's a leveling out of a person to
try to see the other side's perspective
and articulate it it's enormously
beneficial to the person who's trying to
do it which was really the point that we
were trying to make it's a really
interesting exercise I mean that that by
way of advice so if it works at
Clubhouse for people who don't know
that's a it's like a voice app where you
can be anonymous that's really regular
people but regular people who can also
be anonymous it's just it could be chaos
if it works there that's really
interesting for uh when you sit down for
a conversation across the table from
somebody
don't have them even steal me on the
other side have them just state
the other side
just just
explain your understanding of it yeah
that's it and every now and then I would
jump in
like you know and there's somebody
supporting Israel you know whoever the
heck they were
and they they say a couple things
and the Palestinian guy would be like
Argyle or supportive of them would say
you know you miss some stuff and I'd say
let me jump in
first of all I know what the Knack by is
the catastrophe that's the day Israel
was born you you know for the rest of
the world's birth of Israel for you to
nakba I said you've got members of your
family
that is still walking around carrying
keys to the front door of the house they
abandoned
and they'd be like yeah
and I'd say you feel bad that in point
of fact that in World War II
the world stood back and watched
while the Nazis threw the Jews off a
building
the only problem was they landed on you
and they'd be like yeah
that's where they're coming from
so articulating you know deeply what the
other side feels is transformative for
both people involved in a process
what's the toughest negotiation you've
ever been a part of or maybe observed or
heard of
what's a difficult case you
just stands out to you or maybe you just
want one of many
well the uh the stuff we went through uh
without Qaeda
um in and around Iraq Iraq in Saudi
first one was in Saudi in 2004 time
frame
the hardest part about that was working
with family members
and not deceiving them
about the possibility outcome yeah how
do you talk to family members is that
part of the negotiation yeah empathy
learning empathy the hard way
and then being able to take it up to
higher levels because at its base level
um a guy that we're working with now
that's coaching Us in the U.S and as a
business partner his name is Jonathan
Smith he pointed out to us
that there's kind of there's a shuhari
concept are you familiar with shoe
Harvey it's a martial arts concept
and she was
um do it exactly as the master is
telling you to do it wax on wax off
karate kid stuff
aha is when you've done the reputation
repetitions enough times you're getting
a feel for it
and you begin to see the same lessons
coming from other Masters you're seeing
the same thing show up in other places
and at the re-level
you're still in the discipline
but you're making up your own rules
it's almost a flow state
and you don't realize
that you're making up your own rules and
if somebody asks you where you learned
that
you probably say
I you know my my Sensei taught it to me
my master taught it to me
um this will come back around the
negotiating with families pretty quick
we did this once because there's a bunch
of people that we coach
um business people that are scared of
the amount of money that they're losing
if we're not coaching them regularly
one of these guys Michael we're
interviewing him
for a social media posting about two
years ago
and Michael says yeah you know you got
to gather data with your eyes
and I remember thinking and I went whoa
I like that
I said where did you hear that before
and he goes you know I don't know I
heard it from you I think and I was like
no no no
I didn't remember saying that yeah for
at that first time I've heard that he's
in re
so what's this got to do with families
empathy at its base level in a shoe
level I learned it on the suicide
hotline is saying like
you sound angry
I'm just calling out the elephant a room
your your emotions what's driving you
I'm throwing a label on your affect
and I'm saying you sound or it sounds
like you are
because that's the basic Karate Kid wax
on wax off
approach
now there are a lot of Hostage
negotiators that'll tell you empathy
doesn't work at home not true they've
never gotten out of shoe
you're getting ready to talk to your
significant other
and you want to go someplace
that you know is going to make her angry
you want to go do something now that's
real negotiation right there you could
say to
you sound angry in which case she's
going to blow up because her reaction is
you made me angry bozo
how can you act like you're an innocent
third party or that you were independent
of how I feel bad
and you learn learn a little bit more
and you say
the the high level is is probably going
to make you angry
and then what I did with families
I knew how they felt before I walked on
the door
I knew that they were scared to death
you find out that your your your husband
your father your brother has been
grabbed by Al-Qaeda who are in the
business of chopping people's heads off
you're going to be horrified I can't
walk into them and go like you sound
angry
of course I'm angry you idiot
but knowing what they are I used to walk
into family's houses
and I'd say I know you're angry
now what it now what are the
circumstances dictate that they should
also feel
they're going to feel abandoned by their
government they're going to feel totally
alone
they're going to be scared
and they're going to be angry
because they feel the government abandon
them now they're in point of fact is
this an accurate statement
that their loved one voluntarily went
into a war zone and voluntarily went
someplace their government told them not
to go
are the facts that the government
abandoned them absolutely not as a
matter of fact the government won't
tried to get them to knock out when they
went anyway
but that doesn't change how they felt in
the moment
and I'd walk into a house and I go I
know you're angry
I know you feel abandoned and alone
and I know you're horrified and I know
you feel the United States government
has abandoned you
and I would look at me and go like
yeah
what do we do now
now we're ready to rock
is there uh with Al-Qaeda or in general
is there a language barrier too it could
be just barriers of different
communication Styles I mean you got like
a New Yorker way about it
that might make somebody from like
I don't know Laguna Beach uncomfortable
do you feel that language barrier and
communication is
um that the language and communication
style and itself creating a barrier you
got a barrier when you think that your
way is the way sure that's the biggest
barrier yeah like and that happens all
the time
um when people talk about what about
cross-cultural negotiations
you know uh what hand do I gotta shake
hands with sure so that I can get my way
[Music]
well if you strip it all down we're all
we're all basically the same blanks like
when we were born we gotta everybody's
got a limbic system everybody's limbic
system works pretty much the same way
people are driven by the same sorts of
decisions how does this affect my future
one of my risk of losing how does this
affect my identity you know I kind of
kidnapper
your New York City businessman you're a
tobacco Farmer in the south
all making those same same decisions
based on those same things
so as soon as I start to navigate that
and
I tailor my Approach which is what
empathy is to what you think how you see
things
so I can be
the biggest goofball ever from
if you live in the south yeah maybe I'm
a New Yorker or I'm somebody from LA or
somebody from Chicago
but my geography is foreign to you but
as soon as I start dialing in on how you
see things
suddenly you're listening
what about the three voices you talk
about the different voices you can use
in that communication right The
assertive's Voice direct and honest
I'm a natural born assertive
Natural Born I thought we're all Blank
Slate it's your boy stop catching me on
what I said how dare you through accuse
me of what I've said to quote Bono I
Stand Accused of what I've said the
things I've said that's a good line he's
got a few good lines
yeah so assertive voice you're born that
way which one uh what are the other ones
uh analyst
you're an analyst
and I can tell you're assertive
yeah what's the analyst voice
well an analyst is close the smarter
more thoughtful
no as a matter of fact
look you ever do a decision tree yeah
see you like it too don't you
so decision trees you know there's I'm a
computer scientist so we have I like
mathematical uh systematic ways of
seeing the world it's an analyst
you think Donald Trump would ever say
that
unlikely
well is he more of the assertive kind
he's a natural born assertive yeah yeah
are all New Yorkers like this is this
someone something in the water no that's
a crazy thing I mean there's an affect
that a city can have yeah
and um you know New York's Northeast not
just New York
but the Northeast is is a little more
the the the affect yeah of the area of
the culture of the area the individuals
individuals still boil down into the
three types cross-abort what's the third
one
um accommodator smiling optimistic
hopeful yeah I'm 100 a thousand percent
convinced that the phrase hope is not a
strategy
is designed at people's frustration over
a third of the population being
accommodators that are hope driven
I hope this works out
and they're very relationship they on
the surface they're very relationship
oriented they tend to appear to be very
positive and they are
but it's really built around hope and
the idea is you can adopt these three
voices you can yeah you can learn them
they're all learnable
the analysts
are often mistaken for accommodators
because as you said before
you know analysts are more introspective
more analytical
they're looking at the systems at work
and
if
um if they like to learn
they notice
that accommodators make more deals than
they make they also notice that there's
a higher failure rate of the deals
but since they notice stuff and they
think about it
they catch on faster than asserters do
that the pleasant nature of an ant of an
accommodator contributes strongly to
them making deals
like my daughter-in-law
um is an analyst you know another
another descriptor we have in that an
analysts are assassins
you know an analyst will snap you from a
thousand yards out in the middle of the
night
and you never know what hit you and
they're really happy with that
but uh has how has assertiveness the
assertive voice served you in
negotiation poorly
that's the sort of voice
is almost always counterproductive it
feels like getting hit in the face with
a brick
and that's almost always
counterproductive so for me to be more
effective especially in a negotiation
I'll need to slow slow down
and smile
you know I heard that uh Teddy Roosevelt
was a good negotiator and then he was
extremely stubborn
and perhaps the right term for that will
be assertive but he picked his battles
is there some value to
holding strong to principles so I don't
even know if that's probably the
opposite of empathy are there times when
you can just stick
be extremely stubborn to your principles
we do it all the time we just you know
we're just nice about it okay it helps
to be nice you're saying well yes
because I need you to hear me and the
assertive tone of voice
so when when we do our training
typically we do an exercise called 60
seconds so she dies
and I play the bad guy bank robber and I
ask you to be the hostage negotiator
and your job is to give you the four
cons real world constraints
and then you got to try and negotiate me
out of the bank now we're doing this now
the first voice that I always use in
that exercise is The assertive's Voice
which is the commanding voice
it's the voice that all police officers
have taught to use in the street
issued loud and clear commands
you know it doesn't it to me I don't
feel like I'm attacking you
I just feel like I'm being direct and
honest and clear
you on the other hand feel attacked
now we're doing this exercise in Austin
a couple of years ago the first
participant has an Apple watch on
he tells us afterwards
that's sitting still
not even answering
when he first gets hit in the face with
the assertive's voice his heart rate
jumped to 170. which is a typical fight
or flight reaction I come at you like
I'm fighting you
your your fight flight mechanism all
kick into gear which clouds you're
thinking you're automatically Dumber in
the moment
so if I want to make a great long-term
deal with you
highly profitable
I'm agnostic to you being profitable is
it you'd be profitable that's fine I'm
here to make money for me
making you dumber will always hurt me
me making you feel attacked
will always hurt me
so there's never a value in being in you
making me
afraid
there's never a long-term value in it
that's um
it's another thing that tall rise when
we were writing a book
brace me on
because he said there's scientific data
out there that's called strategic
umbrage
well there's data well whether or not
it's scientific I would call that into
question
but he said there's studies out there
that show that strategic umbrage works
and
another thing that I also enjoy
uh you probably get tired of me saying
wonderful things about Andrew
you talk there's never there's never
enough wonderful things to say about the
great Andrew huberman the host of the
human Lab podcast everybody should
subscribe to you should talk to Andrew
you're funnier than he is though I'll
give you that Andrew he's funny
accidentally he makes me laugh all the
time not when he's trying to be funny
yeah he's a really uh he's one of the
people in this world that's truly legit
he's a really strong scientist and a
really strong communicator and a good
human being and it those those together
don't come often and it's nice to see
yeah yeah
yeah he's a treasure National Treasure
anyway you were saying well he he sort
of taught me how to think about that in
studies and Science and
and also from different uh books that
he's turned me on to it's really helped
me think about this stuff so the study's
about strategic umbrage
were done the ones that I've seen that
show it's effective
there were simulated negotiations with
college students now here's the problem
with that
a simulated negotiation with a college
student college students are going to
sit down as part of their assignment
they're going to sit down one time
they're going to sit down for 45 minutes
and they're going to think that if they
didn't come to a deal at all that they
failed and there's no ongoing
implementation there's just a deal and
then they walk away a pretense situation
so they got no actual real skin in the
game
There's No Deal on Earth do you sit down
and come to agreement 45 minutes and
never see each other again because
there's the implementation of the deal
if even if it's only payment
so the data is flawed based on the way
it was collected it's a highly flawed
study
and all data is flawed as you know as a
scientist you just got to be aware what
the flaws are and decide whether or not
that destroys the study or or what do
you think you take a look at the data
there's no such thing as perfect data
look at the data see what you think of
it the data that says that strategic
umbrage works is based on flawed
circumstances can you explain strategic
umbrage get mad scaring the other side
into a deal
getting mad at using anger strategically
to bully the other side into an
agreement
that's nice to hear in some sense
it's nice to hear that empathy is the
right way in almost all situations
it's night best chance of success
not that it works every time just it
works more than anything else does what
is the technique of mirroring there's a
lot of cool stuff in your book they just
kind of Jump Around what's mirroring
mirroring is is like it's it's
it's one of the most fun skills because
it's the simplest to execute you just
repeat one to three
ish words of what somebody said usually
the last one with three words
um what I found about it is
people that really like mirroring love
it because it's so simple and so
effortless and invisible
they typically
for lack of a better term tend to be
both high IQ and high EQ like I'm not a
high IQ guy I'm average dude
I like to think that I can learn
in EQ emotional intelligence is a skill
you can build and I'm always working on
building it
but a lot of really regular average
people
were like marrying that stupid I'm not
doing that
and I don't know why they don't like it
but when I find somebody that loves the
mirror
I'll always ask them you know how'd you
I just go on I IQ and typically their IQ
is pretty high now I don't know why that
combination attracts people to Marin
because there's nine skills
um eight from hostage negotiation and we
then the ninth really was tone of voice
and we just Define that as a skill
and each one is different and focuses on
different
components of the conversation
and a lot of people don't like the
mirror they found it so awkward like I I
don't particularly I'm not particularly
strong in mirroring I got to do it
intentionally I'm good at labeling but
does it almost always work
oh yeah
yeah it's
it feels maybe awkward but there's it's
true there's got to be ways to signal
that you're truly listening
that's part of it I think you do body
language you can yeah there's a lot of
ways to signal that but mirroring is
probably just this trivial little hack
it kind of is
you know what there's a situation I had
a conversation with Stephen codkin he's
this historian and uh he would say my
name a lot throughout the conversation
he would be like we have to understand
Lex
is that and for some reason that was
making me feel really good I was like he
cares about me and I wonder if that key
if everyone has that key that could be
the name just using people's name could
be
powerful using the name is really
context driven
it can be extremely powerful with
someone who's genuine and it comes
across in their demeanor
and it's used in a way
that you can tell is meant to encourage
you yeah as opposed to explore you sure
and the people that are really into
exploiting will also use it do the same
thing so you have to be you have to
avoid using the things that people that
are exploiters manipulators use
because it's it might signal to others
that this person is uh trying to trick
me it'll be very conscious over here uh
what's labeling that you mentioned the
thing you like well you know I said
earlier that old progression from you
sound angry to this is probably going to
make you angry dude I know you're angry
labeling is is hanging a label on an
emotion or an affect and then just
calling it up
is that almost always good it could
could it be a source of frustration when
a person is being angry and you you kind
of put a label on it
uh call out the elephant
that is it possible that that will lead
to escalation of that feeling versus of
resolution well
the con what would make it bad like
um
if I'm pointing out like that blatantly
obvious like if I say look
I need you to get up and go down to the
bank and make the deposit let's say I'm
talking to my
if somebody works in my company I need
you to get on the phone with this person
and make the appointment
and I go
sounds like you want me to talk to this
person
yes that would be annoying if it's just
so absurdly obvious yeah that there's no
Insight in your label at all
and as soon as you're
demonstrating an awareness or a subtlety
or an Insight either to you or to them
now we're making progress
so the only time
a label could ever potentially be
counterproductive it's like if you
weren't actually listening yeah and the
label is
indicates that you're not listening
you know um
I'm teaching the USC
and I'm teaching labels and you know one
of the kids in a class he just wants to
take the skills and make his deals and
just hustle them
yeah and he's just looking for the
hustle
so he writes up a paper about you know
he goes there's some some malls I think
over by Palm Springs or someplace some
outlet malls a lot of people go to buy
suits
so he goes in there and immediately
starts the bargaining
uh that my book teaches with no empathy
and he's like um throws a price to the
guy and the guy's like no
and he throws another price of the gang
guys like no
and then then he says to the the guy
behind the counter sounds like we can
make a deal
like no it doesn't I just shut down
everything you just said if anything it
sounds like we're never gonna make a
deal yeah but he tried to use this label
for manipulation
now the guy didn't get mad on the other
side but it's like clearly his dude is
not listening to me and at the core of
everything you have a bunch of like uh
you know almost like hacks
like techniques you can use but at the
core of it is empathy
yeah that's the main things and be able
to just sit there and listen
and perceive
yeah and look for insights
you know what I like silence or like
you're both sitting there chilling with
a drink looking up at the stars there's
a moment
the silence makes you kind of zoom out
and realize you're in this together as
opposed to playing a game
or some kind of like chess game of
negotiation you're in it to get I don't
know there's some intimacy to the
silence and like if I I'll ask a
question
and just let the other person
sit there and silence before they answer
or the vice versa they ask me a question
I sit there in silence that's a it's a
big physical big intimate thing
yes and
the other two types until they've
experienced that are afraid of it
and what I'm actually going to do is
for whatever reason I'm really I'm
really comfortable with silence I think
because I've I've experienced its
Effectiveness and also my son Brandon
like he's the king of dynamic silence
like he coaches people he says you go
silent count thousands to yourself
don't stop till you run out of numbers
it's a good light yeah he's also good
good full of good lines he is that is
and so
there's so much to it
but the other two types are natural
wiring against the white until they've
experienced it and you know you've got
Instinct intuition is giving you data
once you've experienced it yeah but your
amygdala is kicking into gear again
sorry I realize it's more complicated
than that
until you've experienced it so
accommodators hope based
how do they signal Fury the silent
treatment
ah
so when you go silent
they're scared the death you're Furious
yeah because that's how they indicate it
the assertive
thinks to use the analyst went silent
because you want them to talk some more
when a point of fact
you either
you're thinking or and I love your
description the feeling of intimacy and
silence and experiencing the moment
because I'm actually going to factor
that into trying to get
the accommodators love shared intimacy
they would love would love to experience
a moment and I can see that being very
compelling then be willing to cross that
Chasm and experience silence and see how
see how it works for them
yeah it's nerve-wracking which is why I
sent to me because you start thinking
what's the other person thinking we're
actually going to do this so we're going
to sit here for 10 seconds and come I
mean there's tricks to it I guess like
Brandon says is to just count it out and
realize through data that there's
intimacy to it at um uh a friend of mine
he uh lost his voice because
singing so you couldn't the doctor says
he can't talk for a week just to heal
the voice yeah the vocal cords but he uh
he hung out with other people with
friends and didn't talk to them he just
hung out and he said he was really
intimate they both they both didn't talk
to each other
they just sat there
and you enjoyed time together I don't
know it's it's a it's a wake-up call
it's a thing to try maybe with uh with
people in your life just hang out and
don't say anything like as an experiment
don't say anything the entire day
but we're trying yeah definitely it's
interesting I haven't tried it myself
it seems uh uh it's kind of like a
silent retreat but more uh active as
part of like regular everyday life
um anyway
the is there other other interesting
techniques we can talk about here so um
for example creating the illusion of
control
yeah that's principally you know by
asking what and how questions
because people love to tell others what
to do or how to do it
um it does a lot that was that was
really the way when the book was first
written
that we really thought about what and
how questions is giving the other side
the illusion of control
and there's a lot more to it than that
that we've discovered I mean it triggers
deep thinking it wears people down
deep thinking is could be exhausting and
you want so what's the what's the role
of exhaustion and negotiation is that
ultimately you gotta be careful with
that
um some people uh exhaust intentionally
uh one of my negotiation Heroes uh a guy
now who's unfortunately suffering from
um dementia and Alzheimer's
John Dominico Pico is the UN hostage
negotiators that got all the Western
hostages out of Beirut in the 80s
and he wrote a book called Man Without a
Gun
and I'm acquainted with Johnny at this
point in time I think I don't think he
has any memory of who I am at all
but he writes in his book uh
one of the great secrets of negotiation
is exhausting the other side
political negotiations that could be
Johnny was very deferential
he was in the middle of in in the 80s
leading up to about 1986-ish
every negotiation involved in
uh warring parties in the Middle East
that you can imagine
he was in Cyprus
he was in um
Afghanistan
Iraq and Iran the Iranian government had
tremendous
uh trust in him as a Westerner a
representative of the U.N got all the
westerners out of out of Beirut
and he was just ridiculously patient
and then which the other side found
exhaust would often find exhausting
so exhaustion is a can be a component of
finding resolution in the negotiation if
it's if it tamps down the negative
emotions often exhaustion will Tamp down
negative emotions if it puts you if in
getting the real trick is really getting
negative emotions out of out of the way
because you're Dumber in a negative
frame of mind
so the goal is always positive emotion
as you talk about that's what you're
always chasing together I think I think
so yeah and that's what the that's right
it's about yes
like whatever you're triggering whatever
the chemistry you're triggering in your
brain you're like yeah yeah we're doing
good here I think yeah long term for
long-term success absolutely
how's the word Fair used
the F-bomb as you call it how is it used
and abused negotiation it's usually uh
uh used it's most frequently used as a
weapon
it's abused as a point of manipulation
it's what people say when they feel
backed into a corner and they can't
um come up with any legitimate reason as
to why they're being backed into a
corner
like nobody uses the word f the F-bomb
nobody uses the word fair when they've
got criteria to back them up
so consequently when somebody started
starts dropping it you got to realize
the other side's got no legitimate
outside criteria they're they're feeling
very vulnerable they can't explain it
but they feel defensive
and it saying hey look I've just I've
given you a fair offer
is a way for me to knock you off your
game if you're if you're not you're not
aware of it
so a lot of cutthroat negotiations
negotiators are going to use it on you
to knock you off your game the um
uh the NFL strike probably now it's been
a good 10 years ago
um
and maybe even longer than that
one of this uh sticking points was the
owners were not opening their books to
the players players wanted to see the
numbers
and
in order to not open their books they
just sent a rep sell the press
conference saying we've given them
players a fair offer
well if it was fair you to open your
books
yeah if if you gave him a fair offer and
it was justified by what was in your
books you'd open them to prove your
point
so what ends up happening though that
well the owners gave the players a fair
offer starts to get picked up in the
media
and then it starts getting repeated and
now now there are different people on
the player's side are going like yeah
maybe maybe they have given us a fair
offer it caused
people to be insecure about their own
positions it's an enormously powerful
word that can be used and abused and it
almost always comes up in every
negotiation it's shocking the number of
times it comes up with people who don't
really understand
how or why it's coming up so usually
it's a signal of
um of a not a good place in the
negotiation without question I'm
completely convinced that if the person
is using the word
is a means of getting what they want
then
either accidentally or on purpose either
in their gut or they know they got a bad
position or their gut is afraid that
they are
do I use the word
what I'll say is I want you to feel like
I've treated you fairly and if any given
point in time you think I'm not treating
you fairly I want you to stop me
and we're going to address it
big ridiculous question but
how do you uh close the deal how do you
take the uh negotiation to its end is it
implementation ultimately you got to put
you gotta pivot to agreed upon
implementation to really to really move
out of the negotiation
um and I may say how do you how do you
want to proceed
and if you don't know I might say no
more into question is it a ridiculous
idea if I share with you some ideas of
how to proceed
and then you agree on the actual steps
and that's the implementation it's not
just the philosophical agreement it's
actual steps the big problem in all
negotiations is a lack of discussion of
next steps
that's deep who is the uh best
negotiator you've ever met yeah and
actually probably my son Brandon yeah
yeah he's ridiculously talented
I mean he's ridiculously talented
and yeah he's you know and what was it
Cole's book the culture the Talent Code
says that you know people just noticed
it and started getting good at it
there's no such thing as a child prodigy
just got interested when they were a kid
I mean
Brandon started learning how to
negotiate when he was two years old
and he's been in it and immersed in it
you know since he can make complete
senses even before he can make complete
senses he's ridiculously talented what's
uh what's his future what's he want to
do uh he's uh gonna he has been involved
he's he run and built my company and now
he's gonna be an Affiliated licensee run
his own operation he's pretty he's
pretty much going to end up doing very
much
uh uh he's going to open his
entrepreneurial opportunities to do
whatever he wants and not have his dad
say no
[Laughter]
and do a better job than his dad most
likely yeah yeah okay
do you see some of the techniques that
you talk about as manipulative
manipulation is whether or not I'm
trying to exploit you hurt you
um
am I trying to manipulate a bank robber
and to let me save his life
yeah
so manipulation is like what am I what
am I trying to do to you yeah
so but so you don't see the negative
connotation if you're trying to uh bring
a better future it's not manipulation
stop if I'm trying to bring a better
future if I'm being genuine and honest
like I compliment you yeah if if my
compliment is genuine
that's not manipulation like better but
you know if I think
you know you're you got a pair of shoes
that that are the dumbest looking things
I've ever seen and I go wow those are
great shoes no that's manipulation
so there's uh there's guys I call Warren
Buffett who are big on integrity and
honesty what's the role of uh
lying in effective like a bad idea lying
is just a bad idea for a variety of
reasons
first of all
um there's really good change the other
side it's a better life than you are
they're going to spot it right off the
bat yeah
yeah secondly
they could be luring you into a trap to
see if you will lie
thirdly the chances are they're going to
find out they lied to them eventually
is really high and then the penalties
and the taxes
are going to be way higher than what you
had in the first place so long term you
want to have a reputation of somebody
with integrity and the more you lie the
harder it is to maintain that reputation
yeah exactly and where it's going to get
out
yeah yeah so what's the if we can just
return to that question what's the
difference between a good conversation
and a good negotiation
can we uh because
I think just uh reading your work
listening to you
there's a sense I have that the thing
we're doing now and just conversation on
the podcast and so on is different than
negotiation it feels like the purpose is
different
and yet having some of the same
awareness
of the value of empathy
is extremely important but it feels like
the goals are different
or no
um really close fine line I mean I you
know I I Ruled in here not having any
expectations
not looking for anything other than have
an interesting conversation
and um to
hear what was behind the questions that
you were asking me and what interests
you
and then also
um your description of silence and a
power of Silence something I'm going to
take away as a learning point and how
learn to teach others
but I didn't come in here I suppose a
negotiation is when we're both aware of
a problem we're trying to solve
right there's no problem in the room
right just to solve except maybe like
The Human Condition and inside you know
wisdom Insight learning
how do you uh
train to become better at negotiating
um in business and uh in life yeah just
small Stakes practice for high stakes
results I mean decide what what kind of
negotiating resonates with you I mean
what's that means small Stakes practice
for high Stakes or small state it's a
small little
incremental like picking up girls at a
bar what are we talking about Well it
can't be uh for some people that's
that's high stakes practice
well you know labeling labeling mirrors
what are the basic tools of great
negotiation labeling mirroring
paraphrasing summarizing
so you start you start labeling a mirror
people that you just haven't regular
interactions with just to gain a feel
for whether or not you can read
somebody's affect or how accurate your
read is to get better at it
and so you know label the
the Lyft driver
or the grocery store clerk
or a person behind the airline counter
at the at the airport so putting a label
on their affect or throwing something at
them
that because negotiation is a parable
perishable skill emotional intelligence
is perishable so seeing if you can
indicate that you understand early
um one of my favorite labels to throw
out on somebody which you know maybe
re-level I might look at somebody who
looks distressed and I'll go tough day
so
several years ago
um at the counter at LAX oh well I'm
waiting the line to get to the counter
and a lady behind the counter is clearly
making a point to not meet my eyes so
that I don't approach
and she looks and so like you you know
you know when you're next in line and
they're making sure that you don't meet
eyes
and I'm thinking to myself all right so
they're having a bad day so I woke up
and as soon as I approach the counter I
go tough day
and she kind of snaps around
and she goes no no no how can I help you
and goes out of her way to help me
now I'm practicing but I also know it
made her feel better it relieves some of
the stress so now I'm going through TSA
I want to look for people having a tough
day it's a good place to find a good
place to find and practice
and I'm rolling through the line and I
realize I haven't tossed a label out on
any one of these guys and and there's
this guy watching the bags come out of
the X-ray machine he's just kind of got
an indifferent look on his face and I go
tough day
and he kind of goes I can see from his
body language like no
and I go just another day huh and he
goes yeah just another day you know he
felt seen but I missed and I'm
practicing and I'm trying to stay sharp
so these are the few words with just a
few words you're trying to like quickly
localize the effect and not live on it
very very very analytically said thank
you
thank you
I'm not letting it go
I love it
um
it does this thing apply to just
conversation in general just how to get
better conversation I think a lot of
people struggle they have insecurities
they have anxiety about conversation I
as funny as it's to say I have a lot of
anxiety about conversation
is that it basically do the same kind of
practice practice some of the techniques
yeah genuinely just trying to make sure
you heard somebody out yeah
what's the best conversation you've ever
been in except this one of course
wow what what I mean not the best
conversation but what stands out to you
as conversation that changed you as a
person maybe well there's probably been
a lot of them along the way I mean but
one that one that I remember on a
regular basis there's actually there's
two but um when I was in the bureau uh
I'm at Quantico I'm their financial
services another guy from New York buddy
of my name Lionel
and we're both trying to decide whether
or not we want to be try to get into
profiling or negotiation
because they're both about human
dynamics and both of us really like
human dynamics
and we're sitting around talking about
it and we're talking about several
things in any labels me and I know he
didn't know what he was doing I think I
think he was just he had picked it up
and I'd been talking about my family
quite a few things
and he said to me and I never said this
directly that we were close
but he said to me it sounds like your
family's really close and I can remember
in the Moment Like This Feeling Just
Like I felt great in the moment I mean
what he said just drew together
everything that I'd been saying and
nailed the essence of it and I have a
very clear recollection of how good that
felt in a moment
so a couple years later
I'm on a suicide hotline now I got this
line in the back of my head you know
um line technique reaction read whatever
you want to call it
guy calls in on a hotline
and I could tell the dude is rattled by
his tone of voice I mean just just amped
up
and he goes
you know I'm just trying to put a lid on
the day I need I need your help putting
a lid on today I gotta I gotta put a lid
on the day
and I go you sound
anxious
and he goes he goes yeah
and he and he came down a little bit and
he was a guy that was
he was telling me about he was battling
the disease disease of paranoia
and he's gonna go on a car trip with his
family the next day and he knew they're
on the card trip he was gonna you know
twist himself in the knots and so the
night before he's twisting himself in
the knots
and he's laying out everything that he's
done to try to beat
uh
uh paranoia and how much his family's
helping him
and and he's going on a car trip with
the family because they're going to take
him to see a doctor
and so I I hit him with the same thing
that my buddy Lionel said I said it
sounds like your family's close
it goes yeah we are close and you love a
lot a little bit more
and then he started taking off all the
things that he was doing to try to be
paranoia and he sounded determined
and so I said
you sound determined
and he goes yeah
I am determined
and I'll be fine tomorrow
thanks
and that was all I said so those two
conversations which are overlapping
conversations those two things really
stick out of my mind
do those things like through all the
different negotiations and conversations
you've had
Duke do they kind of echo throughout
like you basically
because when you empathize with other
human beings you start to realize we're
all the same
and so you can start to
pick little phrases here and there that
you've heard from others little
experiences they were all about like we
all want to be
um
to be close with other human beings we
all want love the world
I think we're all deeply lonely inside
and looking for connection
um or just if we're If we're honest
about it and so all humans have that
same all the same different components
of um
oh it makes them tick
so you you kind of see yourself
basically just
saying the same things to connect with
another human being yeah there aren't
that many different things that we're
looking for understanding on or
connection on or satisfaction of there
just aren't that many of them regardless
and so yeah you're looking forward
to manifest itself
in some form or another and you're
willing to take a guess on whether or
not that's what you're seeing or hearing
what uh advice would you give to me to
be better at
these conversations
to me and to other people that do kind
of um interviews and podcasts and so on
wow
that I really care about empathy as well
is there a kind of as a lifelong journey
in this process yeah well I think I
would advise you to take that approach
which is the approach you're taking you
care about it you're very curious about
it
you see it is a lifelong journey you're
fascinated by it
you enjoy
learning about it
and and you definitely do see it as a
lifelong journey as opposed to this is
what I can if I can acquire this then I
can manipulate people no I mean I I fall
in love with people I talk to there's a
kind of deep connection and it lingers
with you especially when I'm preparing
uh the more material there's in a person
the more you get to fall in love with
them ahead of time they think you get to
really understand not understand but
um what I mean by fall in love well
appreciate huh appreciate but also
become deeply curious that's what I mean
by following like yeah you appreciate
the things you know but you start to see
like Alice in Wonderland you start to
see that there's all this cool stuff you
can learn if you keep interact with them
and then when you show up and you
actually meet you realize
it's like more and more and more and
more it's like in physics the more you
learn the more you realize you don't
know and it's like it's really exciting
and then it could also be heartbreaking
because you have to say goodbye goodbye
I hate goodbyes I hate goodbyes seems
terminal right yeah it makes it reminds
me that I'm gonna die one day huh like
things end good things end it sucks but
then it makes the the moment more
delicious you know that you do get to
spend together yeah
okay uh I I just wanna I completely
forgot I want to ask you about this the
uh 7 38 55 rule it's really interesting
does this is there an all truth to it uh
that seven percent of a message is
conveyed from the words used 38 from the
tone of voice and 55 from body language
is that really true to that all right so
Albert Moravian I think is the name of
the UCLA uh Professor that originally
proposed the 738 55 ratio and discussed
it in terms of that it wasn't the
message but how much the he called it
liking like are you not that you're the
meeting is coming across but you're
liking of the message and so
that's been extrapolated heavily by
people like me
um to this meaning of the meaning in
738.55 from liking to the meaning
what I've seen regularly is
people that communicate verbally if
they're speakers Tony Robbins
738-55 guy he's he throws the ratio out
there
go that's it exactly that's exactly how
the message comes across this is how we
got to balance it
this is how we got to do it
those that communicate principally in
writing
the meaning of the words are much more
important to them
so they're deeply uncomfortable with
seven being Awards because the content
the words the meaning of the words when
you're writing it's so important
that you you hate to poo poo it that way
so I I first of all a thousand percent
believe it's an accurate ratio
but the real critical issue is not what
the ratio of those three things are
it's what's what's the message when
they're out of line
like what's the message when the tone of
voice is out of line with the words like
it don't matter what your ratio is you
got a problem if their tone does not
match their warts
yeah and that's that's hard to really
put
um
put a measure on exactly even in writing
there's a tone
I mean it's not just even in writing
it's not just the words there's the
words but there's like a style
underneath the whole thing right and
there's something like a body language
the presentation of the whole thing I
mean they're yeah yeah I'm a big fan of
uh constraint mediums of communication
which writing is or voice like Clubhouse
there's a personality to a human being
when you just hear their voice
there's it's not just it's you could say
it's the tone of voice but there's like
you can like what is it the imagination
fills in the rest
like what I'm looking for somebody I'm
like I'm imagining some amorphous being
right doing things when they get angry
I'm imagining anger I don't know what
exactly I'm visualizing if you if well
and so you you may think of a funny
story because we were talking about your
buddy Elon before yeah and I told you
you know about you know that I'd
interacted with some of the senior
executives
so I know that they that they that that
they love working with them and I think
he's an interesting guy and they realize
that he can be funny and he jokes around
yeah so that they tell me during this
conference call just words
and uh a guy on the other end the line
says something
um you know that wasn't wasn't was wrong
but wasn't bad yeah and so they said
they're on a they're on a phone and Elon
goes you're fired and then everybody in
the room with them can see that he's
joking yeah
but the person on the other side and
they're all going wait wait wait wait
they can't see your look on your face
right now you gotta stop you gotta stop
because the guy on the other side is
dying right now he doesn't realize
you're joking yeah so there was you know
there were the words and the tone of
voice and but it lacked the visual to go
with it
uh nevertheless it was probably funny
um
uh maybe not to him uh just just as uh
interesting to ask I don't know if
you're following along the developments
of large language models there's been
something called Chad GPT there's just
more
more and more sophisticated and
effective and impressive chat Bots
essentially they can they can talk
and they are becoming more and more
human-like right do you think it's
possible uh in the future that AI would
be able to be better in negotiators
than humans do you think about that kind
of stuff uh well so definition of better
or or versus less flawed like they're
they're you know the chat Bots have been
out there for a long time and um
probably about
five years ago now
uh company approached us because they
were doing a negotiation chat bot
and they said two things first uh first
of all I said you know why are you
talking to us it's a well-on point of
fact
we already spoke to the people that are
teaching quote the Harvard methodology
and you know the rational approach to
negotiation just doesn't work rational
approaches does not work it's our chat
Bots are not getting anywhere
but we're showing
in in around about 80 percent of the
interactions
a higher success outcome with these chat
box
and they showed me what they were doing
and it was still a lot deeply flawed
emotional intelligence wise
but the reason why that they were having
higher success rates is the chat Bots
were never in a bad mood and you could
reach out for Chad Bach in the middle of
the night
so if you were talking to somebody that
was never upset and was always available
then you're going to have a higher
success rate negotiations go bad when
people are in a negative frame of mind
so the pot the natural ability
um of a chatbot to be positive it's just
going to give you a
higher success rate yeah and and they're
not they're not going to get mad and
argue with you you know you say
you say to a chadbot you know your price
is too high
chadbot is designed to come back with a
smiley face yeah you say to a person
your price is too high if you go how
dare you I'm trying to make a living you
know they're gonna go off the deepest uh
unfortunately or fortunately I think the
way chat Bots are going now they will
come back negative because they're
becoming more human more and more
human-like that's the whole point to be
able to pass the touring test you have
to be negative you have to be an
you have to have boundaries you have to
be insecure you have to have some
uncertainty what is them just doing
being having boundaries and being
negative like I can like you you threw a
proposal to me
but you know before I say no
I'm gonna say look I'm sorry that just
doesn't work for me
I'm gonna set up a real clear boundary
without being negative share so then a
lot of people
really struggle with setting boundaries
without being negative without name
calling without indignation without
getting upset but see there's a when you
are
when you show that you're not getting
upset
I'm not just seeing that I'm seeing a FL
I'm seeing a flawed human
that has underneath it a temper
underneath it the ability to get upset
right but chooses not to get upset and a
chatbot has to demonstrate that so it's
not just going to be cold and and uh you
know be this kind of corporate blank
empty sort of uh like vapid creature
that just says oh thank you thank you
for saying that no it's basically uh you
have to the chatbot has to be able to be
mean and choose not to be
interesting I don't know maybe I'd be
I'd be willing to to see that
play out and see uh see how it plays out
but I guess what I'm saying is to be a
good negotiator you have to be have the
capacity to be a bad person and choose
not really I think so see I I think you
just gotta have the capacity to set a
boundary and stick to it
interesting I because I think it's hard
for me to trust a person who's not aware
of their own demons
because if you say you don't have any
demons if you don't have any flaws I
can't trust you
yeah well it's first of all it's a lie
right so somebody's lying right because
it gets back to life yes so you have to
have a self-awareness about that uh but
he'd be able to control it demonstrate
be able to control it I mean this is
humans I just think humans
intelligent effective humans are able to
do this well and chat Bots are not yet
and they're moving that direction so
it makes me think about what is actually
required for Effective negotiation
that's what AI systems do is they make
you ask yourself
what is it that makes humans special any
discipline what is it that makes human
special chess and go games which AI
systems are able to beat humans at now
what is it that makes them effective at
negotiation what does it make them
effective at
um
something that's extremely difficult
which is navigating physical spaces so
doing things that we take for granted
like making yourself a cup of coffee is
exceptionally difficult problem
for robots yeah because of all the
complexities involved in navigating
physical reality we we have so much
Common Sense reasoning built in
just about how gravity Works about how
um objects move
the
what kind of objects there are in the
world it's a it's it's really difficult
to describe because it all seems so damn
trivial but it's not trivial right
because a lot of that we just learned as
babies we keep running into things and
we'll learn about that so AI systems
help us understand what is it that makes
humans really what is the wisdom we have
in our heads and negotiation to me is
super interesting because negotiation is
not it's about business it's about uh
geopolitics it's about running
government
is basically negotiating how do we the
different policies different uh bills
and programs and so on how do we
allocate money
how do we reallocate resources all that
kind of stuff that seems like AI in the
future could be better at that
but maybe not
maybe you have to be a messy weird
insecure uncertain human and debate each
other and yell at each other on Twitter
maybe you have to have the red and the
blue teams
that yell at each other
um in in the process of figuring out
what is true maybe AI systems will not
be able to do that I figure out the full
mess of human
of human civilization yeah interesting
well I mean the two thoughts that I had
along the way was
I mean anytime you're talking about
systems or scaling
you know yeah you're talking my belief
is
chatbot systems
things that don't require decision
making just following the instructions
at least 80 percent of what's going on
now the remaining percentage whatever it
is does it does it require the human
interaction and what's required like I'm
not I'm not I'm not like I am not
pro-conflict and I also know that
there's a case to be made in the
creative world
that some of the best thinking came out
of conflict
um
reading interviews about you too
you know their admiration for some of
the Beatles best music came when they
were fighting with each other
and the song one octoon which is I
believe from the album octum baby
those guys were fighting I mean they
were on the verge of breaking up
and their appreciation that conflict
could create something beautiful
and then when I was in a crisis
negotiation unit you know my last seven
years in the FBI
it was a guy that um named Vince
brilliant dude brilliant brilliant
negotiator
and he and I used to argue all the time
and then when we had a change in the guy
who was in charge
the guy was in charge took me off to the
side and he's like you know I can't take
you and Vince fighting all the time
and I said well I got news for you I
think we come up with much better stuff
as a result of our battles
and he said you know Vince said the same
thing to me
and I'm like so well if we don't have a
problem fighting why why do you have a
problem yeah
but you know some there is there is
something there that sometimes the most
difficult insights
you rack your brains as to why someone
is so
dug in on something that so you think is
so wrong
yeah maybe there's something to it I
think there's something to it there's
something about conflict even drama that
might be a feature not a bug of our
society very interesting
uh do you think there will always be war
in the world yeah
[Laughter]
uh so there will always be a need for
negotiators and negotiating well as it
turns out
um why do you think there will always be
a war is it what's your intuition about
human nature there yeah just because
we're basically 75 negative and then
for lack of a better term I call it two
lines of code like somewhere when you
everybody when we were little somebody
planted in two lines into our head we
don't know when it got in there
but somebody said something to us it's
stuck
and there are a lot of people that had
some really negative garbage dumped in
their brain
when they were little
and
just based on the numbers yeah what kind
of opportunity they were given
afterwards did they ever have an
epiphany moment
when I genuinely believe they can get
get themselves out of it like what is it
one of Joseph spends his book is
breaking the habit of being yourself
yeah you know like how do you get at
that two lines of code that that
either mean or well intentioned but
stupidly speaking adults said to you at
the wrong moment and plan it in your
brain like how the chances of everybody
on Earth getting out of getting that out
even the majority of people on Earth
getting that out of their heads is
really small
what advice would you give to a young
person today about how to have a career
they could be proud of or a life maybe
somebody in high school
College trying to figure out their way
in this world
it's probably a take on a cliche of uh
do what you love but um
if you if you figure out your ideals
and pursue your ideals
and stick to them
when it costs you
like a guy admire very much Michael
mogill uh runs his or operation crisp
video in Atlanta
in one of his talks he would say core
values are what you uh stick to that
cost you money
it's not a value that really matters to
you unless it's costing you
and stick to your values
now when I was in the FBI I worked
really hard at you know the number one
core mission of the FBI is protect and
defend the American people
so I could pursue that value
at all times which I did or I could
follow the rules
you don't have time to do both
when did you know you you found what you
love
like
when did you fall in love with whatever
this process is that is negotiating
it was in in a conversation on the
suicide hotline that I was telling you
about earlier with the guy who was
paranoid hmm
when I thought I can have that
significant of an impact on another
human being in this short of a period of
time
that's really cool
how hard is it to talk somebody off the
ledge
so this question is a big question now
why why the hell live at all
how do you have that kind of deeply
philosophical deeply psychological and
also practical conversation with
somebody and convince them that they
should stick around well it um
it's more clear and clearing the clutter
in their head
and and let them make up their own mind
that that was what volunteer on suicide
Island was really about just let me help
let me let me see how quickly I can
clear out the clutter in your head
if you're willing to have it cleared out
like did you call here because you're
actually looking for help
or did you call here to fulfill some
other
agenda
so are you you know are you willing to
have are you willing to clear the
clutter in your head not everybody is
so once you clear out the Clutter
as a the at least somewhat hopeful
chance that you'll uh you'll continue
for another day yeah
and and like if you step back like very
few people that commit suicide
physically or up against it that hard
like most of them by and large are
pretty intact physically human beings
they're struggling with emotional stuff
but
that it's an it's an emotional issue
it's not a physical issue
so if you would be a complete mercenary
like a guy I'm a very big fan of a guy
named Mark Pollock
uh born great athlete lost his eyesight
and then became paralyzed
like he's an emotional
um
uh leader he's about helping people
thrive and live great lives
like Marx was born he was a spectacular
athlete
and first he lost his side and one eye
then he lost his side and the other eye
and then he fell out a window in a
tragic experience like if there was ever
a dude that was saying like living sucks
you know and if there's any doubt in my
mind something worse happens to me every
few years
but Mark's about being alive and
inspiring other people
so the hard part with navigating was
somebody who's tossing it in because
they there is a chemical imbalance or or
there it's the way they're interpreting
the world there's clutter in their head
like how can you how can you help clear
that clutter in her head and help him
buy themselves
Inspire them to reinterpret that world
yeah as one worth living in yeah
uh what do you think is the meaning of
life
was lost why why I live what's what's
why what's what's a good reason well I
have I have um I have very strong
religious beliefs
um
spiritual you know I I don't a thousand
percent if you were to try to confine me
in a box
um I'd be a Christian
and I have tremendous respect for the
Jewish I don't think any religions got
it nailed exactly
I'm again you know I keep mentioning
them I'm kind of a Bono Christian I
think Bono's he's like what
uh
uh and I'm gonna butcher but you know my
belief in Jesus is what I've got after
Christianity leaves a room you know the
dogma of man's application of spiritual
beliefs
so but that being said I I truly believe
that my life was a gift and there's
there's a purpose here and
you know for my Creator decided that I
woke up in the morning because he still
had some cool interesting things for me
to do
and you have gratitude for having the
opportunity to live that day yeah
well you do one heck of a good job at
Living those days I really appreciate
your work I appreciate the person you
are
um thank you for uh just everything
you've done today for just being
empathic honestly you're a great
listener you're a great
conversationalist it's just an honor to
meet you and to talk to you this was
really awesome Chris my pleasure
thanks for listening to this
conversation with Chris Voss to support
this podcast please check out our
sponsors in the description and now let
me leave you some words from John F
Kennedy
let us never negotiate out of fear
but let us never fear to negotiate
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time