Kind: captions
Language: en
it was just like one of those moments
where we saw it at the same time and
we're standing by the tail
and the snake was so big that I mean
this must have been a 25 foot anaconda
dead asleep with a with a probably a 16
foot anaconda like sprawled across her
and they're laying in the Starlight and
we're floating on top of a lake standing
there in the middle of the Amazon and JJ
just I just I could feel the blood drain
out of his face
and as a however old I was you know
maybe 20 years old I just said if I if
we could somehow
show people this
will be on the front cover in National
Geographic and we can protect all the
jungle that we want
and so I tried to catch it
yeah so I jumped on the snake and the
only measurement I have of this animal
is that when I wrapped my arms around it
I couldn't touch my fingers yeah and so
I was you know my my feet were dragging
into her credit this Anaconda did not
turn around and eat me because her head
was you know this bad and and she went
and she reached the edge of the the
Grass Island and she starts plunging
into the dark and so I'm watching the
Stars vibrate as this anaconda's going
and I had to make the choice
of either going head first down into the
black which no thank you or stopping and
just keeping my hand on this thing as it
raced by me and I just felt the scales
and the muscle and the power go by and
then eventually taper down to the tail
until it's Slipped Away into the
darkness and I was laying there just
panting
the following is conversation with Paul
rosly a conservationist Explorer author
filmmaker and real life Tarzan since for
much of the past 17 years Paul has lived
deep in the Amazon rainforest protecting
endangered species and trees from
poachers loggers and foreign Nations
funding them he is the founder of jungle
Keepers which today protects over 50 000
Acres of threatened habitat and Paul is
one of the most incredible human beings
I've ever met I hope to travel with him
in the Amazon jungle one day because in
his eyes I saw a truth that can only be
discovered directly by spending time
among the immensity and power of nature
at its purest
this is the Lex Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Paul rosly
in 2006 at 18 years old you fled New
York and traveled to the Amazon
this started a journey that I think
lasts this day uh tell me about this
First Leap what in your heart pulled you
towards the Amazon jungle
from the time I was you know three years
old I'd say you know I was dinosaurs
wildlife documentaries fever when you
name it and like when my parents said
you know nature versus nurture they they
nurtured my nature I was always just
drawn to
streams forests I wanted to go explore
where the little little creek LED I
wanted to see the turtles and the snakes
and so I was a kid that hated school did
not get along with school I was dyslexic
and didn't know it undiagnosed I didn't
read until I was like 10 years old like
way behind and so for me the forest was
safety like I remember one time in first
grade they had you doing those you know
those multiplication sheets that was
pure hell for me and so I actually got
so upset that I couldn't do it that I
ran out the classroom ran out the door
and went to the nearest woods and I
stayed there because that was safe and
so for me like once I got to the point
where I was like high school isn't
working out I had incredibly supported
parents that were like look just get out
take your GED get out of high school
after 10th grade you got to go to
college but like start doing something
you love and so I saved up and bought a
ticket to the Amazon and met some
indigenous guys and the second I walked
in that Forest it was like it's like the
first scene in Jurassic Park when they
see the dinosaurs and they go oh this is
it yeah I walked in there and just I
looked at those giant trees I saw leaf
cutter ants in real life and I just went
oh it was like the movie just started
you know that was when that was when
like I came online
can you put in towards what is it about
that place that felt like home what was
it that Drew you what aspect of nature
the streams the water the the forest the
Jungle the animals what what Drew you
uh it's just it's always been in my
blood I mean for any Forest I mean
whether it's you know Upstate New York
or or India or Borneo but the Amazon
it's it's it's all of that turned up to
this level where everything is
superlatively diverse you know you have
more plants and animals than anywhere
else on Earth not just now but in the
entire fossil record it's the Andes
Amazon interface there's just that's
terrestrally that's that's where it is
that's the greatest library of life that
has ever existed and so you're just
you're so stimulated you're so
overwhelmed with color and diversity and
beauty and this overwhelming sense of
natural Majesty of these you know
thousand-year-old trees and half the
life is up in the canopy of those trees
we don't even have access to it there's
stuff without names walking around on
those branches and it's like it just
takes you somewhere and so going there
it was like it you know the guys I met
just opened the door and they were like
you know how far do you want to go down
the rabbit hole how how much of this do
you want to see you mentioned Steve
Irvin uh you list a bunch of Heroes yeah
have he's one of them and he said that
when you're unsure about a decision you
ask yourself uh wwsd what would Steve do
why is that such a good heuristic for
Life what would Steve do he's a human
being that like everything we saw from
Steve Irwin was positive everything was
with a smile on his face if he was
getting bitten by a reticulated python
he was smiling if he was you know
getting destroyed in the news for
feeding a crocodile with his son too
close he was trying to explain to people
why it's okay and why we have to love
these animals and everything was about
love everything was about you know
wildlife and protecting and to me a
person like that that where you only see
positive things that's that's a role
model and it's just like an endless
curiosity and hunger to explore this
this world of nature yeah and an
insatiable Madness for for wildlife I
mean the guy was just so much fun I
gotta if it's okay uh read to you a few
of your own words you opened oh boy the
book Mother of God with the passage that
I think beautifully Paints the scene
before he died Santiago Duran told me a
secret it was late at night in a palm
thatched Hut on a bank of the temple
Potter river deep in the southwestern
corner of the Amazon basin besides the
mud oven two wild boar heads sizzling
sizzled in a cradle of Embers they're
protruding tusks curling and static
Agony as they cooked
the smell of burning
sacropia wood and cinched flesh filled
air
woven basket containing monkey skulls
hung from the rafters Where Stars speak
through the gaps in the thatching a pair
of chickens huddled in the corner
conversing Softly
we sat facing each other on sturdy
benches across a table hewn from a
single cross section of some massive
tree now nearly consumed by termites the
song of a million insects and frogs
filled the night
Santiago's cigarette trembled in the H
fingers as he leaned close over the
candlelight to describe a place hidden
in the jungle that line
the songs of a million insects and frogs
filled the night for some reason hit me
um what's it like sitting there
conversing among so many living
creatures all around you every night in
the jungle you live in constant
awareness of that out there in the
Darkness
are literally millions of heartbeats
around you and so like
we exist in this in this you know
domesticated paved world most of the
time but when you go out there past the
roads and the and the telephone poles
and the hospitals and you make it out
into Earth just wild Earth and there's
no there's no there's not like this is a
national park there's no rescue
helicopter waiting to come get you you
are out there
and you're surrounded at Night by I mean
there are snakes and jaguars and frogs
and insects and all this stuff just
crawling through the swamps and through
the trees and through the branches and
we put on headlamps and go out into the
night and just absolutely fall to our
knees with Wonder of the things that we
see it's it's absolutely incredible and
most of it doesn't make sounds like the
insects do the insects do the frogs do
you have some of the night birds making
sounds but a lot of it everything has
evolved to be silent invisible
I mean everything there is in the on on
the list like like I there's another
line in Mother of God where I said like
you know like life is just like a
temporary moment of stasis and like the
churning recycling Death March that is
the Amazon like it's um it's been called
the greatest natural Battlefield on
Earth I mean if any in any square acre
there's more stuff eating other things
than anywhere else and and you go
through a swamp in the Amazon
and there's like this tarantulas
floating on the water there's frogs in
the trees there's there's
tadpoles hanging from leaves waiting to
drop into the water this fish waiting to
eat them this Birds and the trees you
literally are surrounded by so many
things that your brain can't process it
it's it's just overwhelming
life
churning Death March
some of the creatures are waiting and
some of them are being a bit more
proactive about it
what do you make of that
churning Death March that the amount of
murder that's happening all around you
at all scales what is that you know we
uh we dramatize Wars and the millions of
people that were lost in World War II uh
some of them tortured some of them dying
uh with a gun in hand some of them
civilians but it's just millions of
people hmm what about the billions and
billions and billions of organisms that
are just being murdered all around you
is that
um do you does that change your view of
nature of life here it I've always kind
of wondered like that like when you see
like a you know wildebeest taken down by
lions and and eaten from behind while
it's alive and it makes you question God
you know you go how could how could how
could they let this happen
um in the Amazon
I find personally that these natural
processes make up
almost a religion
that it reminds you how temporary we are
that you know the the bot flies that are
trying to get into your skin and the
mosquitoes that are trying to suck your
blood and the you know when that when
you sweat you see you see the you
literally can like hold out your arm and
watch the condensation come off of your
skin and rise up into the canopy and
join the clouds and Rain back down in
the afternoon and and then you drink the
river and start it all over again and
it's like it's flowing through you so
uh the Amazon reminds me that that
there's a lot that we don't understand
and so when it comes to that
overwhelming and Collective murder as
Werner Herzog put it
um it's just part of the show it's part
of the freak Show of the Amazonian night
I see you I you in certain moments able
to feel one with a mosquito that's
trying to kill you slowly and one with
the mosquito is a stretch is it always
the enemy what I mean is like you're
part of the machine there right yeah and
it's like Fair Play It's like fair play
so like we have bullet ants and like you
know you get you get nailed by a bullet
ant you just go yeah well well done well
today's today's over I'm going back to
bed and I'm taking a pile of Tylenol and
you know do you think in that sense
when you're out there are you a part of
nature or you're separate from Nature's
Man a part of nature or separate I think
that's what's so refreshing about it is
that out there you truly are
and so whether we're bringing
researchers or film Crews or or whether
we're just out there ourselves on an
expedition
um you truly are a part of Nature and so
one of the things that that my team and
I started doing when I became friends
with these guys you know this is a
family of indigenous people from the
community of infierno and they took me
in and
as we got close they started saying you
know you can come with us on our like
annual hunting trip and I went okay and
it's four guys in a boat and you don't
want to get your clothes wet so we're
all in like our boxers in a canoe with a
motor going out past the places that
have names and you're out in the middle
of the Jungle and the thing is like when
you're when your motor breaks you are so
quickly reminded of
the inerrant truths like the things that
nobody can argue with and we live in
such a human world where everything is
debatable religion and politics and
perspectives on everything and then you
get down to this point where it's like
if we don't
figure something out the river is going
to rise and take the boat that's the
truth and ain't nobody gonna like argue
with that and it's like to me there's a
beauty in that truth because then all of
us are united there and that and that
truth against like the natural facts
around us
and so to me I that's that's a state
where I I feel very very at home and the
Amazon is more efficient than most
places on Earth that swallowing you up
oh God yeah okay
so just a linger on that because you
you've spoken about Francisco de aralana
uh who's this Explorer in the in uh 1541
or 42 that still the length of the
Amazon probably one of the first and
that's just a few things
I should probably read I should probably
find a good book on him because the guy
seems like a gangster yes um some great
books on him so he sailed uh he led the
expedition that sailed all the way for
one end to the other
there's like a rebuilding of a ship
which is insanity yeah yeah so because
it speaks to the thing it's like
nobody's gonna come and rescue you no
you have to if your boat dies you gotta
have to rebuild it yeah so they came
down the Andes entered in the headwaters
of the Amazon constructed some sort of
raft boat craft something and made it
down the entire Amazon basin of course
his stories are the ones that led to the
Amazon being called the Amazon because
he reported tribes of women he reported
these large cities places where the
tribes lived on farms of river turtles
that they corralled and they lived off
of that protein and then when they came
out to the mouth of the Amazon if I
remember it correctly that just through
navigation and the Stars they were able
to calculate where the way was back to
Spain and make a boat seaworthy enough
to bring them home
hmm
incredible absolutely do people like
that inspire you your own Journey like
what gives you kind of strength that um
in these harshes of times in harshes of
conditions you can persevere yeah I mean
you look at the stories of people that
are so you know these stories of people
that have overcome incredible suffering
like that or like you know what
Shackleton did or something like that
and so like when you're you know I've
been you know your tent gets washed away
you go to sleep and the river Rises 20
feet and washes away your tent and you
crawl out and all you have is Machete
and a headlamp literally no bag no food
no nothing and you go wow the next six
days before I reach back to a town is
gonna be just pure hell I'm gonna be
sleeping on the ground covered in ants
destroyed by mosquitoes and then it
becomes you know am I in any capacity
any percentage as tough and resilient as
the people that I've read about that
have made it through things far worse
than this and and then that's the game
you play what goes through your head all
you got is the headlamp and the machete
so are you uh thinking at all
like I I've gotten a chance to interact
quite a lot with Elon Musk and he
constantly puts out fires having to run
several companies there's never a kind
of uh
whiny deliberation about issues you just
always
one one step forward how to solve right
this is the situation how do you solve
it or do you also have a kind of
self-motivating
almost egotistical like I'm a bad
motherfucker I can handle anything
almost like trying to fake it till you
make it kind of thing
there was a little bit of your machete
you know I got a sword
um
there there may have been a little bit
of that when I was like you know like 14
15 years old I'd like you know have like
a hunting knife in my dog and I'd go out
into the woods or like the Catskills and
survive for a weekend which my rule was
one match
you know you get one match and you got
to make shelter and then you know I'd
bring like a steak and like make a fire
and stuff and at that point there maybe
was some ego but in the Amazon you get
stripped down so completely that you
it's like that thing like you know watch
the atheism leave everyone's body when
they think they're about to die it's
like when you
find yourself staring up at the Amazon
at night and you go there is no hope of
getting out of here I mean I was once
lost in a swamp where it took me days to
get out of there and there was there was
moments where I just said this is you
know this is clearly it there's no
there's no ego there there's just hope
you you start you start realizing what
you believe in and
praying that you'll be okay and and then
trying to trying to summon whatever you
know about how to survive and
and that's it and so it's it's actually
again it's kind of it's kind of a
blissful state if you can walk that line
between like Adventure and tragedy and
sort of keep yourself right at that very
very fine line without going over ever
fear of death fear ever fear
um Tara no I don't want to die I wanna I
wanna you know I love the people in my
life and there's a lot of things I want
to do but every time I've been every
time I've been certain that I'm gonna
die it's been I've been very very calm
very calm and just sort of like okay
well if this is how the movie goes and
this is how it goes almost accepting
yeah
which is which is reassuring you
mentioned Herzog
just to uh Venture down this road of
death and fear and so on there's been a
few Mad Men like you in this world
uh he's documented a couple of them uh
what lessons do you draw from Grizzly
Man or into the wild those kinds of
stories I were you ever afraid that you
would be one of those stories oh yeah I
actually think that that's in Mother of
God where I said I almost until into the
wild did myself like I I went out there
and really I got so lost and so
destroyed that I said this this is this
is going to be the next one you know
this is gonna be the next story of some
idiot kid from New York who went to the
Amazon thinking he was Percy Fawcett and
then vanished because if you if you do
vanish out there your body's going to be
consumed in a matter of days like like
two you know if we see if we see an
animal dead on a trail it's you got dung
beetles and and fly larva and vultures
and there's a whole pecking order you
know you get the black vultures the
yellow vultures the king vulture they
all come in that thing is picked clean
in a couple of days what would be the
creature that eats most of you in that
situation probably the vultures probably
the vultures and the and the maggots
it's it's really quick it's really
really quick like like like you even as
far as like you can't leave food out you
know like if you have like a piece of
chicken you say oh I'll eat it in the
morning you leave it out you can't do
that it's not it's not good by morning
Grizzly Man for example like what
because that's a beautiful story it's
both comical and genius and especially
the way Herzog tells it well first of do
you like the way he told the story do
you like hers I do I love Herzog and I
love his his documentary the burden of
Dreams which is which is in the Amazon
not very far from where I work and the
the sheer Madness that you see this man
undergoing of just trying to recreate
hauling a boat over a mountain
um is is is wild and and the you know
the the extras that he hired to be to
play the natives are are the I think
they're matcha ganga tribesmen and
they're just they just look like all the
guys that I hang out with and it's like
you know they're doing all this stuff in
the jungle that months and months and
months and you can just see him
deteriorating with Madness because the
jungle you know your boat you know how
many times I've tied up a boat to the
side of the river this just happened
like a year and a half ago I tied up
through a lot through covet I pretty
much just lived in the jungle for a
while and there was nobody there and
there was no support and I tied up my
boat and the rain is just hammering like
like like the universe is trying to rip
the Earth in half the rain is just going
and the river's rising and I tied up the
boat
but then you go to sleep and you got to
wake up every two hours to go check the
boat and the boat is thrashing back and
forth and I so all night every two hours
I'd wake up barefoot in driving rain
like you know golf ball raindrops and
just go down check the boat and then by
morning I was like I fell asleep woke up
checked the boat and then I was like I'm
just gonna go make coffee I was so done
I was so like at the end of my rope
every time bailing the boat out and
stuff
and then we got 15 minutes of heavy rain
that filled the boat sanket
so now I'm stuck up River with no boat
and it's like that type of thing where
it's like no matter how hard you try the
jungle's just like listen
you ain't you're nothing you are nothing
and so it's that constant reminder and
so Herzog really threw himself into that
in that film and uh it's it's brilliant
to watch what do you think he meant by
the line that you include in your book
it's a land that God if he exists has
created in anger
said in German accent yeah overwhelming
and Collective murder
um
so that's that's
so you didn't really appreciate the
beauty of the of the murder I think he
appreciated it but to him it was very
dark you know I think he saw the
darkness in it and that's there it sure
is as soon as you do Ayahuasca you that
door opens and you see the darkness
because it brings you right into the
jungle like the the heart of it but I
think that for him it it is I think that
darkness is something that he Embraces
and that he loves there's another film
of his and I don't know if this is
accurate but my memory has it that
there's a penguin and I think it's in
Antarctica and the Penguins going in the
wrong direction away from the ocean yeah
and I feel like he goes on this
monologue about how like he's just had
enough yeah he's you know this one
penguin is just marching towards you
know yeah well he his because I remember
that clip from that uh documentary
and what Werner says is that the penguin
is deranged yes he's lost his mind and I
took offense to that yeah because maybe
that's a brave Explorer like how do you
know there's not some a lot more going
on like
it could be a love story those penguins
get super attached maybe his mate was
over there and he had to go find her
like or it's a lost mate and he last
time he saw her was going in that
direction exactly so this is like the
great Explorer they we we assume animals
are like the average of the bell curve
like every animal we interact with is
just the average but they're special
ones just like they're special humans
yeah that could be a special penguin ah
it could have been and I had the same
thought where I was like I was like he's
I I found it beautiful how he
interpreted it what I took away from
that was I found that born of herzog's
monologue there was was brilliantly dark
and also comedic
but but maybe irrelevant biologically
speaking towards penguins like you know
um which which happens a lot with
animals I find like there's so many
times where I'll find people be like do
you think that animals can show
compassion and you hear like a bunch of
people that have never left the pavement
talking about like wow this this one
animal helped another and it's like it's
like go ask Jane Goodall if animals can
show compassion go go talk to anybody
that works on a daily basis with animals
and they'll and so like to me there's a
there's always a little bit of
frustration in hearing people sort of
like pleasantly surprised that animals
aren't just you know you know these
automatons of you know just just what's
the word like um like programmed you
know nothingness first of all what have
you learned about life from Jane Goodall
because she spoke highly of your book
and eulitis is one of the mentors but
what what kind of wisdom about animals
do you draw from her
the wisdom from Jane is so diverse it's
I mean she first of all she's someone
that you know the work that she did at
the time she did it was so incredible
because I mean she she was out there at
a very young age doing that field work
she was naming her subjects which
everyone said you shouldn't do she broke
every rule she broke every rule she was
assigning and everyone said you know
you're anthropomorphizing these animals
by saying that they're doing this and
that and she she was like no they're
they're interacting they're showing love
they're showing compassion they're
showing hate they're showing fear and
and she broke straight through all of
those things
um and and it paid off in dividends for
her do you see the animals as having all
those human-like emotions of Anger of
compassion of longing of loneliness from
what you've seen with especially with
mammals yeah but with different species
out there do they have all that it
depends on the animal you know if you're
talking you know on the scale of a
cockroach to an elephant you know it's
like a lot of these things and I wonder
about this stuff all the time you know
I'll I'll have a praying mantis on my
hand and just go what is going through
your mind you know yeah or you'll see it
you'll see a spider make a complex
decision and go I'm going to make my web
there you know and you go how how are
you how are you doing this how are you
because he he made a calculation there
you know it's smart I was in the jungle
not that long ago and I'm I was walking
and all of a sudden this Dove comes
flying through the jungle right up to my
face lands on a branch like right here
right next to me I look at the dove dub
looks at me and she's like hey and she's
clearly like panting and I'm like I'm
like why why are you why are you so
close this is weird she's like I know
and then and then an ornate hawk eagle
flies up 10 feet away looks at both of
us and just like scowls and like sticks
up its head feathers and then just like
flies off and the dove is like sweet
thanks and then fluff flew in the other
direction and I was like dude you just
used me to save your life yeah the dove
knew see well this is what
because there's diff you know there's
Mike Tyson and there's Albert Einstein
yeah and I sometimes I wonder when I
look at different creatures even insects
like is this Mike Tyson or is this
Einstein yeah like because one or other
kinds of person like is this a New
Yorker or is this a midwesterner or is
this like uh San Francisco Barista of
the insects like there's all kinds of
personalities you never know so you
can't like project
like if you run into a bear and it's
very angry it could be just the asshole
New Yorker yeah sure sure as opposed to
what he's saying about New Yorkers man
exactly coin well made uh So speaking
about communicating with the dove um you
uh first met the crew in the Amazon you
talk about JJ as somebody who can
communicate with animals what do you
think uh JJ is able to see and hear and
feel that others don't that he's able to
communicate with animals when I say this
is the most skilled jungle man I've ever
seen and I know so many guys in the
region
um he has libraries of information in
his Cranium that we cannot fath it's
just it's just stunning like you know I
have seen him use medicinal plants to
cure things that Western doctors
couldn't cure I've seen him navigate in
such a way that he's not using the Stars
he's not using any any discernible you
know it's like when elephants sometimes
like you'll watch a herd of elephants
and they'll be like yo let's go we're
going this way and you'll see them sort
of communicate but there's no audible
sound they'll just decide that they're
going that way they all do it JJ has
this way in the jungle of you know he'll
stop and he'll go wait and you go what
is it and he goes
does it hurt a peccary coming and I'm
like where
based on what yeah you know and he's
like just wait you'll see and he'll sit
there
um yeah it's just experience it's
incredible experience it's it's growing
up Barefoot in the Amazon and the gift
is that he can speak fluent English and
so when I bring tourists and scientists
or news reporters down there he can
communicate with them he's actually good
on camera because he doesn't care about
cameras
um and like you know for instance we
were we were we were walking up a stream
a few months ago and I went hey look
Jaguar tracks and he went oh and I was
like what Jaguar tracks and he's like no
look look harder and I was like
the the toes are deeper than the back
and he was like Aha and where are they
and I was like by the water and I was
like the Jaguar's drinking it was
leaning to drink and he was like that's
right he's like now look behind you I
look behind me and there's scat there's
a big log of Jaguar shit sitting there
it's got butterflies all over it fresh
Pretty fresh and then there's another
one that's less fresh and so he's he's
teaching me as he does he's going look
at this look at this is that one as
fresh as this one no and then he goes
now look up look up
there's three vultures above us
the kill is near us the Jaguar has been
coming multiple times to the river to
drink as it's feasting on whatever it
killed and he's going it's within 30
feet of us right now and it's like
I'm like oh look impressions in the sand
he's like I just drew 19 conclusions
from that it's like watching Sherlock
Holmes at work it's just constructing
the crime scene incredible
[Applause]
does that apply also to be able to
communicate with the actual animals like
read into their body movements directly
uh into their whatever that Dove was
saying to you you'd be able to
understand or is that all just kind of
taking in the complex structure of the
crime scene of the interactions of the
different animals of the environment and
so on like what is that that you're able
to communicate with another creature
that he was able to communicate with
another creature he knows the intention
of pose he knows the habits he knows the
perspective when when when he talks
about animals he'll talk about each
species as if it's a person so he'll say
oh oh the the Jaguar she never likes to
let you see her and so he'll come back
from the jungle and he'll go oh I was
watching monkeys in this this Jaguar was
also watching the monkeys but I was
being so quiet she didn't see me and
then when she see me she feels so
embarrassed and she'd go and he'll tell
you this story like as if he had this
interaction with like his neighbor
and you know and he'll be like oh the
pukakunga it never does that you won't
see it do that and so one time one time
he caught a fish and I I was such a big
fish it was this big beautiful
pseudoplatistoma this tiger catfish this
amazing old fish and they're all excited
to eat it and I felt so bad watching
this thing gasp on the sand and I went
you know what we don't need this this is
for fun
threw it back oh no and then I took my
hand and I went
and I made like drag marks like so I
could say oh it it snuck back in the
water and so he walks up he looks at it
and he was like I hate you and I went
what no I said I must have it must have
just
it's not what happens he goes It goes
like this when it go he knew the track
of a fish and I was like oh yeah I was
like all right JJ I'm sorry I'll catch
you another fish
uh so stepping back to that way you open
Mother of God
yeah uh who was Santiago Duran what
secret did he tell you JJ's father was
uh at some point he was a policeman at
some point when he was a teenager he was
working on the boats that before this
little gold mining city of Puerto
Maldonado uh grew the only way to get
supplies in was to take canoes up the
temple Potter River up to the next state
which is puno and and where the mules
would come down from the mountains with
supplies and then he'd pilot the boats
down but they didn't have Motors at that
time so he would be pulling the boat so
he was he became this physically
terrifying man and I met him when he was
in his 80s and he was still living out
in The Jungle by himself and I mean he's
seen an Anaconda eat a taper which is
the you know a cow-sized mammal on the
Amazon he'd seen uncontacted tribes face
to face he once killed an 11 foot
electric eel
opened the back of the thing's neck
removed the nerve that he says was the
source of the electric then he cut his
forearm placed that nerve into his
forearm wrapped it with a dead Toad and
claimed that it would give him strength
through the rest of his life and
continued to be a jungle badass until
the day he quietly leaned back at a
barbecue and ceased to be alive
the man was incredible but the secret
that he told us was that if you want to
find
big anacondas you know if you want to
see the yakomama he was like you have to
go to the boyo the place of Boaz the the
place that we came to call the floating
forest and so he sent us there and it
became like this
this pilgrimage and you know in the
Amazon the a lot of the creation myths
are based around the Anaconda coming
down from the heavens and carving the
rivers across the jungle and if you look
at the Rivers it looks like that it
looks like the path of an anaconda
crawling through the jungle it's even
the right color
and so from the reference to the tribes
of women the Amazons to the Anaconda
mother everything in the Amazon is very
feminine based even the even the trees
the largest trees in the jungle the
mother of the forest the Madre De La
Selva is the K-pop tree and it's just
this monster tree these beautiful
ancient trees and that was the beginning
of the transition that we made from me
being like I hate school I want to go on
adventures you know Jane Goodall got to
do all this amazing stuff I'm just a kid
stuck here
to to eventually becoming something that
had to do with where my identity became
the jungle where my life became the
jungle the the secret that he told us
opened that door because when we started
working with these giant snakes that
started getting attention
it started getting people to go what are
you doing
um and it started it started allowing me
to have experiences that that solidified
and nailed down the fact that this
wasn't just like a weekend retreat this
was this was something that that I was
born to do and gave you more and more
motivation to go in into these Uncharted
Territory
which uh just a step back what nations
are we talking about here is there some
some geography what are we talking about
where is this so I'm in Peru yeah we're
in Peru and so which is a South American
Nation Peru's a South American Nation
Brazil has 60 of the Amazon which is
unfortunate because anything that
happens politically in Brazil has a
massive impact impact on the Amazon
Peru
has the Western Amazon and Ecuador has a
little bit of the western Amazon and
the Western Amazon is where the Andes
Mountains
the cloud forests which is a mega
biodiverse biome falls into the Western
Amazon lowlands and so you have these
the meeting of these two incredible
biomes and that's what makes this like
superlative incredible you know glowing
moment of life on Earth so yeah we're in
Peru in the Madre de dios which is the
mother of God which I always thought was
such a beautiful
you know the jungle is the source of all
life
and uh so we were with the essay ha
people and they belong to a community
that's called infierno which is given by
the missionaries who when they tried to
go bring these people Jesus got so many
arrows shot at them they just called it
hell
um and so so Santiago Duran helped unite
these tribes that were that were sort of
scattered through the jungle and get
them status government recognized status
as indigenous people so he was sort of a
hero he was sort of a legend for a lot
of the stuff he'd done out Barefoot with
just like a rifle and a machete in the
jungle he he had died he had 19 children
and the last one the the I think the
20th child that he adopted was a refugee
from The Shining path that floated down
the river and he just took him in and
you know this is this is just a guy that
was a you know everything he did like
when he died the whole the whole the
whole region showed up it was it was he
was somebody so just the fact that I
know him gives me Street Credit like the
fact that I knew him I can go like oh I
knew Santiago and people like no
I'm like yeah yeah so you have to get
integrated to the culture to the place
that I mean in every single way which is
which is tough for you for the being
from from New York yeah
yeah it could have been tough but it was
I took to it you know the jungle they
they were very uh you know JJ's teaching
me about medicines and we were doing
bird surveys and you know taking data on
macaw populations and JJ was just like
you really want to like he goes you got
to sleep and I was like I only have a
few weeks here I don't know if I'm ever
going to come back I'm never going to
sleep so we'd be out every night looking
for all the wildlife we could I wanted
to take photos I wanted to see things
and and then you know the exchange came
with that he was like you know I'm
terrified of snakes and I said well I've
always worked with snakes I said I'll
teach you how to handle snakes and then
we just had this like little exchange
and when I left after my first time back
in 2006
you know I said I said how can I help
and and they were like look you know
we're out here trying to protect this
this little island of forest that is
going to be bulldozed and and the more
people that you can bring the more
knowledge and the more awareness that
you can bring to this it'll help and so
really at that age at 18 years old I
sort of
started dabbling with the idea of that I
could be part of helping these people to
protect this place that I loved and of
course at that time that idea seemed
like too large of a dream or too large
of a of a challenge so that I could
actually impact it
so what was the Journey of looking for
these giant snakes
of uh looking for anacondas
what are anacondas Anaconda is
the largest snake on earth so you have
reticulated pythons in Southeast Asia
they're actually longer
but anacondas are these massive boas
they give live birth and unlike a lot of
other species so an anaconda starts off
you know a little two foot anaconda just
a little thicker than your finger a
little baby and their food for
cane toads herons crocodiles you name it
they're they're pretty harmless
defenseless
but as they grow they're eating the fish
they're eating the Crocs and then they
grow a little more and they're eating
things like capybara and they're eating
larger prey and then at the end of their
life a female Anaconda you're talking
about a 25 30 foot 300 400 pound snake
with a head bigger than a football and
these things that means that they impact
the entire ecosystem which is very
unique moves up the food chain to become
basically the best Predator yeah yeah
the the apex predator of the rivers and
so that's so interesting is just eating
your way up to food eating your way up
the food chain if you can survive and
like that you know they're constantly at
war with everything else but
you know so I showed up in the Amazon I
was like so where the anaconda's at and
they were like oh no no it's not like
that they're like it's you you have to
find these things they're they're
Subterranean they're living in the
special swamps they're people kill them
and so we went to the floating Forest
after we'd come back from
an expedition we'd call like a 12-foot
anaconda and it's now it's become like
this like classic photo of me and JJ
with this Anaconda over our shoulders
and we were like we you know we 12 days
out in the jungle on a hunting trip and
we we came back and we showed his dad
and uh Santiago looked at us and he was
like that's the smallest anaconda I've
ever seen he's like you guys are
pathetic oh man 12 foot and he was like
look you go to the go he's like go he's
like I'm giving you permission go to the
boy you'll go to the floating forest and
so we went to this place and we reached
there at night and it was me JJ and one
of his brothers and his brother took one
look at it and was like I'm out and he
started walking back and me and JJ get
to the edge of this thing and and this
is our friendship it's both this two
idiots pushing each other farther and
farther and like I like put a foot on
the on the ground and it All Shook and
the stars are reflecting on the ground
and what we realize is that it's a lake
with floating grass on top of it yeah
and there's islands of grass floating on
this Lake very life of pie and the tops
of trees are coming out of the surface
of the water and so we start walking
across this and JJ's going
these are big anacondas and I'm going JJ
that's a two foot wide smooth path
snaking through the grass there's no
Anaconda that big yeah he was going shhh
they're listening I said they don't have
ears he goes they're listening and it's
like we're walking and we're walking and
then it's like maybe it's like 1am or
something
and it was just like one of those
moments where we saw it at the same time
and we're standing by the tail
and the snake was so big that I mean
this must have been a 25 foot anaconda
dead asleep with a with a probably a 16
foot anaconda like sprawled across her
and they're laying in the Starlight and
we're floating on top of a lake standing
there in the middle of the Amazon and JJ
just I just I could feel the blood drain
out of his face
and as I go however old I was you know
maybe 20 years old I just said if I if
we could somehow
show people this we'll be on the front
cover of National Geographic and we can
protect all the jungle that we want and
so
I tried to catch it
yeah so I jumped on the snake and the
only measurement I have of this animal
is that when I wrapped my arms around it
I couldn't touch my fingers yeah yeah
and so I was you know my my feet were
dragging into her credit this Anaconda
did not turn around and eat me because
her head was you know this bad and and
she went and she reached the edge of the
the Grass Island and she starts plunging
into the dark and so I'm watching the
Stars vibrate as this anaconda's going
and I had to make the choice
of either going head first down into the
black which no thank you or stopping and
just keeping my hand on this thing as it
raced by me and I just felt the scales
and the muscle and the power go by and
then eventually taper down to the tail
until it slipped away into the darkness
and I was laying there just panting
then I turned around and went JJ what
the fuck like where were you man and he
was just like completely white circuits
blown and I had to go then like kind of
like take care of him I was like are you
okay and he was like no
he you know he just couldn't and so we
came back with that and then
after that we were like okay clearly
clearly the parameters of reality that
we thought were possible are are are
just a tiny fraction of what's out there
like we we now that that sort of
recalibrated us we were like okay we're
rubbing up against things that are
bigger than we thought were ever
possible and so we were like okay now we
need to we need to concentrate on this
so how dangerous is that creature to you
to to humans to humans not at all I mean
Mike
um what are are Cooks uh father-in-law
was was eaten by an anaconda but like
you know then again like the way you say
that tell that story sometimes it
happens it happens I mean come on every
now and then somebody gets stung by a
bee and dies like you know it's it once
in a while it happens but you gotta have
a really big anaconda really hungry and
like anybody that works in the wild I
mean just you know if you you walk up to
a Crockett even a giant Nile crocodile
you walk up to the most of the time
they're gonna run into the water they
don't want confrontation they hunt in
their way on their terms sneaky you're
not going to see them and so with an
anaconda it's like yeah if you're I mean
the guy who got eaten like if you're
drunk and you go to the edge of the
water and you go for a midnight swim by
yourself in an Amazonian Lake I mean
whose fault is that but if you jump on
an account and try to uh yeah try to
hold on then you're safe
um apparently I mean I think I've I
think at this point we've you know the
research we've done I think I've handled
or caught you know over 80 anacondas in
the field and
um not one of them has bitten me they
always choose flight over fight they're
like just leave me alone let me go I'm
just gonna crawl under this thing
um they're not an aggressive animal I
mean no snake no I actually like I kind
of like the only time I get particular
was like you know the words is like
people go that's an aggressive black
mambas are aggressive no snake is
aggressive a rattlesnake is going to
Rattle to say hey back up Cobra is going
to stand up and show you its hood and
people go oh look he's being aggressive
he's not being aggressive he's going
don't step on me don't make me do this
they're actually being very peaceful
that's the way I look at it because if
there's a cobra in the corner of this
room right now he would crawl under the
curtain and we'd never see him again
yeah it's like uh Genghis Khan before
conquering The Villages he always
offered for them to join the Army
doesn't need to be like this yeah join
us nobody gets destroyed if you want to
be proud and Fight for Your Country then
uh then we're gonna watch him exactly
okay so how do you how do you catch uh
actually let's step back because there
is
in part you are a bit of a snake
Whisperer so what what is it that
that others don't understand that you do
about snakes
what's maybe a misconception
or what what is uh what have you learned
from the language you speak that snakes
understand I don't know it's just it's
an animal that has has many times in my
life I've been responsible for helping
um the you know I started catching
snakes when I was very young I'd watch
Steven wouldn't go out and catch a
garter snake or a black rat snake in New
York and
um
and then I had a rule I said I have to
catch a hundred non-venomous snakes
before I'm allowed to handle a venomous
snake if I ever need to handle a
venomous snake and then you know I was
on a trail one time I think in Harriman
State Park and some guy you know like
some big hero he tells us you know he's
like back up I'm gonna get this and he
like picks up a stick and he like goes
to like assault this poor Copperhead
that's sitting on the trail
and so like at like 16 years old I had
to go and like shoulder this guy out of
the way and I like got the thing by the
tail and used a stick to very gently
just put it off the trail
Copperhead was not going to do anything
to him but he wanted to you know beat
his chest and show his wife that he was
tough
but then in India you know I've lived in
India for five years at this point in
and out you know periodically and and
snakes are always getting into people's
kitchens
um one time we had a king cobra get into
someone's kitchen an 11 foot snake like
a monster like a god of a snake this
thing stood up you know stand up and be
able to look at you over the table
and this terrifying monster thing
um it's a giant gorilla dog thing like
we caught it with one of the local snake
catchers and we brought it out and he
goes
you know I wonder why I was in the
kitchen yeah looking for food and they
go no they eat snakes king cobra opio
figures Hannah they eat snakes
and he goes
she's thirsty so we got a bottle of
water and we got footage of this and we
she's standing up she's going don't make
me kill you don't make me kill you
you're scaring me right now I don't want
to kill you we took the bottle of the
water and we poured it on our nose and
she started she started drinking you can
see you could see her just drinking and
the snake just took this long drinks
drank a whole water bottle and then said
thank you so much and crawled off
and it's like to me the fact that people
are scared of snakes they have symbolic
hatred of snakes you know you you know
if someone's evil and sneaky we call
them a snake and like to me it's like
when I take volunteers or researchers or
students out into the jungle and we find
an emerald tree boa or an Amazon Tree
Boa or or a vine snake and it's like
this is it's one of the few animals like
you can't really catch a bird and show
it to people you're gonna scare the
birds feathers are going to come out you
might give it a heart attack snakes you
can lift up a snake you know if there's
a snake in the room right now I could
lift it up and say Lex here this is how
you hold it and we could interact calmly
with this thing and then put it back on
its branch and then it'll go and I've
seen what that does to people I've seen
how the Wonder in their eyes and so to
me snakes have always been this
incredible link to teach people about
Wildlife about nature because they have
naturally a lot of fear towards this
creature and to realize that the fear is
not justified it's not grounded or is
not as deeply grounded in reality of
course there's always was New Yorker
snakes right there's always going to be
an asshole snake here and there coming
for me man
uh well okay so back to the Anaconda how
do you catch an anaconda like what uh
how do you hand because it's such a 25
foot or even 12 foot yeah these giant
snakes how do you how do you deal with
this creature how do you interact with
them we had to learn how to do that
because one of the first