Kind: captions
Language: en
let's imagine you have a black rapper
who invites people on stage and let's
suppose they invite a black person on
stage and they're perfectly happy when
the black person
flew out with you know their lyrics
they invite a white person on stage
the white person is you know that
doesn't really you know sort of
mystified but it comes on stage and full
out with what the rapper says including
the infamous N word and then the black
rapper gets mad
imagine the white comedian who satirizes
that pokes fun at that
and in poking fun at that says the
infamous n-word am I angry no I'm not
angry not angry at all
the following is a conversation with
Randall Kennedy professor at Harvard Law
School and author of many seminal books
on Race law history culture and politics
including specifically on affirmative
action criminal justice policing and the
topic explores extensively in this
conversation the single most powerful
word and slur in the English language
the n-word or the hard r at the end
Randall has written a book with this
word as the title and word the strange
career of a Troublesome word
please be warned that Randall uses this
word throughout this conversation
deliberately and skillfully to discuss
its power and its role in The History of
the United States
I don't intend to shy away from
controversial topics like these and I'll
work hard to handle them thoughtfully
and thoroughly with respect and with
empathy
often with several guests who have very
different perspectives on the topic in
the end I believe in the power of
long-form conversations the heel divides
by furthering understanding of human
nature of human history and the full
diversity of The Human Experience this
is Alex Friedman podcast to support it
please check out our sponsors in the
description and now dear friends here's
Randall Kennedy
you wrote a book whose title is the
n-word spelled out with a hard r at the
end so let's start with the history of
this word what is the history of the
n-word the word you're referring to is
nigger
the book that you're referring to is
nigger the strange career of a
Troublesome word
the word dates back to the 16th 17th
century it's got a long lineage in other
words
basically
Latin basically Spanish basically
nig you know black in various
formulations
we don't know actually how the term
nigger became
a slur
so there were words that were close to
nijer that were used in various ways for
instance nigg
Uh u h has been was used in IGG you are
used and sometimes it was used in a way
that seemed to be
just purely descriptive we do know that
by the early 19th century it had become
a slur it had become a derogatory word
about which people complained but
exactly how that came about not all
together clear
so it's been 20 years since you've
written the book what have you uh what
wisdom have you gained about this word
since writing the book and maybe having
to interact with people having to read
having to see having to feel the
response to the book this book has
generated a lot of controversy I I
thought it would it's probably generated
more controversy that I had anticipated
it is certainly generated more
uh
uh more different sorts of experiences
that I had anticipated so for instance
I did not think that writing this book
would prompt people to ask me to be an
expert witness in cases
and over the past 20 years I've been an
expert witness in a number of different
cases I've been an expert witness in
case in a murder case
in various cases of uh of assault I've
been an expert witness in cases
involving
tort cases intentional infliction of
emotional distress I've been an expert
witness in a number of employment cases
um I I had not uh anticipated that nor
had I anticipated the extent to which
people would get in trouble
for using my book every year uh there
are teachers who are suspended or who
are fired uh because they will exert a
chapter of my book Let's uh let's
imagine a and this is not I'm not
imagining things does this happen that's
a teacher is teaching for instance
um The Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn
the word nigger appears in that book
over 200 times the teacher trying to be
Earnest trying to be sensible trying to
be serious will exert a part of my book
uh to acquaint students with the history
of the word and maybe the history of
controversy involving
the use of the word in this particular
novel the student you know the teacher
will give it out hand it out to the
teachers uh hand it out to students and
there have been a number of teachers
who've been suspended or worse because
of that uh t uh uh students will get
upset go home tell their parents their
parents will storm to the school and say
that this is you know this is terrible
the teacher is quote using the word
nigger uh in an offensive way and uh
oftentimes administrators will uh
basically abandon the the the teacher
and this when whenever this comes to my
attention
um I write I'll write the
you know superintendent of schools or
write the principal or sometimes I'll
you know I'll write a uh an opinion
editorial piece for the local newspaper
but every year there are teachers who
are
disciplined uh for using my book I I had
not I had not anticipated that
and what is the nature of the letter or
the or the op-ed that you write
on why they shouldn't be disciplined or
if they do they to the degree they
should be or shouldn't be there's
there's not been one case
uh that has come to my attention in
which it was even remotely sensible
for the teacher to be disciplined
and what I say is that number one
frankly I go through it's the what I
write is almost a synopsis of my book
number one this is an important word in
American history it is a word that is
explosive that's why people get so upset
it's a word that's volatile it's a word
that uh has typically has typically been
used in a terrible way it's a word that
is part of the soundtrack of racial
terrorism in the United States so people
ought to know about this word I mean if
you're interested in uh knowing the Real
History of the United States if you're
interested in knowing about lynching if
you're interested in knowing about the
way in which uh black people have been
terrorized in the United States you need
to know this word you need to know that
history so you need to know why it is
that people are upset about the word but
that's not but it doesn't end there
you have to know that and if you know
that then uh that knowledge should equip
you
to be careful
it should equip you to know that
you know to know to know the the range
of contexts in which this word appears
but again it doesn't just end there
because especially young people you tell
that to young people and they nod they
read they understand that
but then but then what but then they
turn on their radios and they turn on
you know they listen to Spotify they
listen to their some of their favorite
uh entertainers they listen to Dr Dre
they listen to The Ghetto boys they
listen to you know Snoop
uh and they listen to NWA
what do they hear they they they they
listen to stand-up comedians they listen
to uh Dave Chappelle they listen to Kat
Williams
uh uh they you know what do they hear
they hear the word nigger
or nigga
being used in a lot of different ways
and so they need to know about that as
well what are people doing what do
how does one explain
the fact that
Dick Gregory Dick Gregory was a comedian
activist
friend of Martin Luther King Jr a true
activist I mean he had a very a
flourishing
careers and Entertainer that he abandons
in order to struggle for racial Justice
throughout the United States and
including the Deep South how does one
explain the fact that the he wrote
several Memoirs but his first Memoir is
called nigger
a memoir how does one explain that
how does one explain the way in which
how does one explain Richard Pryor
I mean Richard Pryor's best album is
that nigga's crazy
well was Richard Pryor trying to put
down black people how does one explain
that one can only explain that by
getting deeper into the word by
understanding that yes
this is a word that has been used in a
derogatory way this has been this is a
word that has been used to put people
down this has been this is a word that
has been used to terrorize people you've
got to know that
but you also have to know that this is a
word that has also been put to other
uses uh there are artists there are
entertainers
who have used this word like Dick
Gregory used it to put up a mirror to
American society
and say look at this word and look at
the terrible way in which it's been used
we don't want you to look away no don't
look away
we're not no euphemism no asterisk no no
inward no nigger now we want you to look
at that
and we want to talk about that James
Baldwin
James bold there was a there was a
documentary
about James Baldwin a couple of years
ago highly lauded documentary
the title that was given as documentary
was I am not your negro that's not what
James Baldwin said anybody can talk go
to YouTube right now take a look James
Baldwin said I am not your nigger and
then he went on to talk about that
well you know James Baldwin wasn't again
he he wasn't sworn to cover up anything
he wanted people to face the facts of
American Life
and it seems to me that if you're a
teacher
and you want to have your students face
the facts about American life well
you've got to Grapple with the word
nigger now let me just quickly say you
know teachers have a tough job
and
um if we're talking about students of
course there's a wide range of students
am I saying that one ought to give my
book to kindergarteners no you know
kindergarteners are probably not ready
for such a book
uh third graders probably no not third
grade if we're talking however about
people in the 10th grade do I think the
10th graders can read my book yeah sure
absolutely 11th graders 12th graders
people in college there are people in
college
there are people in college there are
people in law schools teachers in law
schools have been disciplined
for uh because the word nigger has come
out of a teacher's mouth why in a couple
of cases recently teacher would be
reading a uh a court opinion
the word appears in the court opinion
the teacher pronounces the word ah
you know students get up
leave in a huff report the teacher
there's some instances in which teachers
have been under those circumstances have
been disciplined in my view that's bad
and people ought to say it's bad it's
bad pedagogically
uh and um
uh frankly in many of these instances
it's just not only is stupid and I don't
mind saying that I think that some of
these instances in which teachers have
been disciplined absolutely stupid
people say well the teacher used the
word excuse me use the word it'd be one
thing it'd be one thing if a teacher
looked at a student and called the
student nigger
you know get out of here nigger that'd
be one that'd be you know fine
discipline that's teacher that's that's
bad
but that's not what's going on
you don't have this these none of these
are cases in which you have an
individual who is a stranger to another
individual and this word just sort of
comes out no what we have here is a
class
involving a person who is a teacher
interacting with students
talking about subjects in which it would
be perfectly understandable why this
word would emerge as a subject of
conversation
now under those circumstances it's
somehow wrong for a teacher to you to to
utter this word in my view the answer is
no and
you know
um I said that 20 years ago I say I say
it even more emphatically now
still it is one of the most powerful
words in the English language
and uh there's a kind of
responsibility that we as humans should
have with words yes with statements
that word
if not used skillfully if not used
competently even when just read from a
legal transcript can do more more harm
than good
uh I agree with what you say yes words
are powerful words do matter
and so I am certainly not
suggesting that people be lacks I'm not
suggesting that people
um be irresponsible
it's precisely because words matter
however
that we need to be willing
to face words and grapple with words and
talk about words and talk about the
history of words precisely because words
matter
and
um among other things it seems to me
it's important to understand that words
can mean different things in different
contexts it's not the case that
a word
means the same thing in every context
the word discriminating
sometimes it's a very bad thing that
person discriminates
and when if you know again you know
intonation of voice means something if I
say that person discriminates
and I'm obviously being disapproving
implicitly what I'm saying is that
person
distinguishes between things on an
unjustifiable basis and that's a bad
thing on the other hand that person has
discriminating taste
oh that means something very different
that means that the person
differentiates in a way that shows that
they understand the difference between
excellent good and not so good and we
think that that's a good thing so words
can have different you know words can
mean different things in different
contexts it seems to me that that's
something that actually we ought to
recognized we ought to recognize and
talk about well some words enter this
territory of being a slur
and it seems like when they cross the
line into being a slur
the there's the number of contexts in
which it's okay to mention it
exponentially decreases
right uh no no I'm gonna no I'm gonna
resist that a little bit because the
whole idea of
you know slurs
slurs change
Yankee was a slur
Yankee was a slur in uh you know 18th
century United States
uh slur today
you know New York Yankees I'm a Yankee
fan I'm a Yankee
um
queer
queer uh you know you know and this is
in in in in my lifetime there was a time
you know that
you queer
and people would really run away from it
and that was you know a bad thing and
then thank goodness
uh Gay Liberation movement Gay
Liberation movement basically we're not
going to run away from this
we're gonna grab this quote slur
and we're going to affix it to ourselves
and we are going to repurpose it
now the word queer is again you know can
it be a slur yeah it can be a slur
doesn't have to be
and it seems to me that it's important
for people to know about
how a word a symbol in some context can
be a slur in some context doesn't have
to be
so the whole idea of
what's a slur
that could that's a that's a complicated
idea in and of itself it's very
complicated it's uh if I may say almost
fascinating how language evolves but if
we were to
kind of have a minute by minute
evaluation of the most powerful
intensely slur-like words in the world I
think the n-word with a hard r at the
end which is the title of your book is
number one on that list
well I probably so and of course that's
one of the reasons why I wrote a little
book about it yeah but it hasn't even
since you wrote a little book about it
it seems like it's maintained its number
one status you mentioned queer
uh it's uh maybe queer was in the top 20
I don't know for a while and now it's
sliding into the uh top uh thousand and
and the n-word is at the top you're
absolutely right the origins of this uh
book
I I clearly remember I was I was at my
office
and I was thinking about lecture topics
and I get invited to give lectures from
time to time
and I was thinking well you know what
what might make for an interesting
lecture and all of a sudden
the word nigger popped into my mind
now this is a word I've I've grown up
with this word I mean there's there's
never been a time in my life
when
um at least in my conscious life
that in which I've
in which this word's been absent I mean
in in my household for instance in my
household
my parents are black people
uh my parents were refugees from the Jim
Crow South I was born in the Deep South
South Carolina
in my household
I heard the word nigger used in every
possible way
I heard it used as a slur
I also heard it used with respect to
people who were praised
you know my father I clearly remember
my father whom I Revere
um uh that's the smartest nigga in the
world that's the bravest nigger in the
world that's the baddest nigger I know
it was he he wasn't putting people down
this is the way he talked and I grew up
hearing this word in various ways
and so I was thinking to myself God
where did this word come from
and one of the first things I did I
clearly remember just jumping up and I'm
a seat running up to the library Oxford
English Dictionary when did this word
first appear in English was the history
of the word
and then what really sort of grabbed my
attention
is um
I went I I I get my computer going
and I asked the computer system
um give me every case
every federal court case in which this
word appears thousands of cases
and then I said oh my goodness this is
really and you know this is really
interesting and then I started just
cataloging all the different cases
there came a point I'd say probably
about a month into this
I compared the usage I compared the
number of times
nigger came up with other sorts of slurs
so for instance kike
k-i-k-e long time you know you know
derogatory word for Jews how many times
does this word come up
there was a time
in which the word appeared but
nothing like the infamous inward nothing
and then I you know what about wet back
what about and then I just you know let
me let me just take a look at all the
other slurs
nothing came close not even remotely
close
to nigger and I think it has something
to do with
um I think it has something to do with
the uniqueness
of the color line particularly as it
pertains to African Americans
I think that the the fact that nigger
uh sort of occupies such a unique status
among slurs
I think that's a reflection
of the unique stigma
that has been imposed on African
Americans it's hard to know uh the
chicken or the egg
why one word is able to sow
distinctly and clearly encapsulate this
struggle between races that is
throughout American history I mean they
didn't have to probably be so but it
came to be that way it became that not
only that not only that but of course
then nigger spurred other slurs so Arabs
sand niggers
um the Irish the niggers of Europe
um women the niggers of the world John
Lennon even has a song that's right
well I think Yoko Ono I think had
something to do with that song
so I mean it is a slur that has
spawned other slurs and again this is
that's why you know as you indicated a
moment ago this is a quite
unique
term
but are you
conscious
are you deliberate in you saying this
word so let me just say from a personal
experience
maybe my upbringing where I came from
in my daily life
I don't think I've ever heard that word
with a hard R said is often used clearly
in my life that I've heard it today more
than I have ever heard of my entire life
and uh I think there's a
a few people who listen to this that
will be listening to this and be very
uncomfortable I would say not in a bad
way
probably in a good way
I'm uncomfortable now and I am almost
introspecting and trying to figure out
why am I uncomfortable and
I think even the title of your book is
making me think that just just looking
into my own mind and trying to
understand wow Words of Power and why
does it have so much power but are you
deliberate in that action and by the way
not only are the people listening to
this sweating this will be on YouTube in
part
and YouTube the people on the other side
will be sweating what do we do with this
yeah
well am I deliberate yeah the answer is
yes
and let me unpack that a little bit
first
that's right I mean uh am I deliberate
yeah I deliberately I deliberately wrote
a book called nigger the strange career
of a Troublesome word
and you know was that deliberate yeah
that was quite deliberate but the title
could have been n-word versus the title
could have been the title could have
been in word sure the title could have
been the title could have been
a book about a word that causes pain to
many people I could have named it that
uh there are many there are many titles
I could have used
um did I want a title that would be
provocative did I want a title that
would grab people the answer to that is
yes
what do you know I'm a writer I want
people to read what I write
was I being sensationalistic
well I mean if if you want to put it
like that yes
I don't I don't I'm not embarrassed to
say that I mean uh I'm sure that when
people write books they think really
hard about their titles and they try to
get a title that will you know grab
people's attention
I know people
respect people very deeply
who never
as a matter of principle never
utter this word
and I've talked with people I've had
people say
um you know I read your book let's talk
about it but let's be very clear I'm not
going to use the word I've had many
conversations with people who've asked
me not to use the word
I was on a I was on a the first time
this came up
was a book tour it was 20 years ago when
the first book first came out
and I was on one of these uh uh call-in
shows early in the morning
time came to call in seven o'clock I
call in at five or seven right before I
go on the host of the show says oh by
the way
we have a strict policy here at the
station we never use this word
and I said well gosh I wish you had told
me this earlier does this mean then that
you're never going to pronounce fully
the title of my book and she said that's
right and I had to make a choice right
then and there am I going to go on or am
I not what'd you do I went on and I
abided by the station's rules
and you know fine we had a perfectly
fine conversation
um and you know I there is a place for
euphemism the American language is a
very Supple language there are lots of
words that one can use I do not get
angry with people who
um don't you know they say as a matter
of principle they're not going to use
the word fine I I'm willing to I
understand where they're coming from
and uh often I will defer to their
wishes
um all I say is I want people to
understand where I'm coming from
I'm not just using this word willy-nilly
there's a pedagogical reason there is a
reason for why I'm saying what I'm
saying there is a reason why
I use the word
can you make the case why using the word
is a good idea and can you make can you
still man the case why it's a bad idea
maybe you've heard from some critics yes
who said that you saying this word out
loud is actually causing a lot of harm
not like uh harm because people's
feelings are hurt but increasing the
amount of racism and hate in the world
yeah critics let's start with the
critics
um one again going back to the when the
book was first published
I remember going to uh the first
bookstore I went to
and I talked about the book had a very
you know talked asked questions
and the last comment
wasn't a question but the last comment
was made by a
uh
an elderly black man
I called on him
and he said I've listened to what you've
had to say and I appreciate what you've
had to say
but he he said but I remain unconvinced
and I remain unconvinced because
when I was coming up
this word
was used to put me in the back of the
bus
and this word was used to prevent me
from voting
and this was the word that was used to
justify me never being called as a juror
so to me this word has only one meaning
it's a terrible meaning
I'm never going to use the word
it hurts me when I hear people use the
word
especially those who don't know anything
about the you know really about the
history of it
and he went on to say I think that your
book though well intended
is probably going to be seen by some
people as giving them permission to use
the word
and then he stopped
and I thought there was a lot of power
behind that gentleman's comment
I think that what he said is probably
correct in so far is there probably some
people who read the you know read the
book they're probably some people who
are listening to our conversation right
now
who will
um
think that I'm giving people permission
to use the word
um
you know I have said that I'm I'm not
I want people to understand the word I
think that there is a burden that comes
from whenever whenever you utter a word
like this
uh but that's you know that's a critique
and I think there's I think there's
strength to that critique I'm not going
to say that that's a ridiculous critique
I think that there is something to that
and by the way I should say and that's
why
I would say to anyone
um
that's right if this word comes out of
your mouth you are taking on real
responsibility so for years it doesn't
happen so much now but they were I'd say
for about the first
five years after this book was published
I would get an email
at least once a week and it would begin
like this
you know Dear Professor Kennedy
uh I read your book and I'm calling to
ask you a question
and as soon as I saw that I knew what
the question was going to be and it
would what the person would say is the
following
I like rap and then I knew I knew it was
coming I like rap I'm white
and I have black friends and we listen
to rap and we're you know we're driving
in the car and we're you know we're
we're listening to the song we start you
know we start humming along and singing
singing along and my black friends sing
along and when nigger or nigga comes up
they sing
and I don't know what to do
is it wrong for me to sing along
this happened so often
that
I'd say about after about the tenth time
I got in such an email I wrote a form
letter
because I didn't want to just you know
take up time
writing you know you know sort of
crafting letter after letter so I wrote
a form letter and basically what I said
was listen number one
you know I'm flattered that you're
asking me but number one you you should
have a conversation with your friend
number two no matter what your friend
says let me put something else
for you to consider let's suppose for
the sake of discussion that your friend
says oh doesn't bother me I know where
you're coming from we're just enjoying
the music
I don't think that this is a you know a
racist utterance you know coming out of
your mouth let's suppose that your
friend says that
that doesn't end matters because
let's imagine the following let's
imagine that you're in a a theater
and you're waiting for the
you know film to start
and you just you know talking with your
friends or singing with your friends or
just you know kicking back with your
friends
and they're talking about nigger this or
nigga this
and you say it you the white boys say it
and the next thing you feel is a fist a
big fist in your mouth
that has been launched by a person that
you did not see who was right behind you
all this person saw was a white person
saying nigga and the next thing pal
that's not
you know some sort of overheated
scenario coming from some law
professor's mind that is a very
plausible scenario so you have to be
worried about lots of things including
mistake
so my advice to you my is be prudent
I would stay clear of the word unless
unless you're very certain and unless if
you're called on it
you feel you're in a position to defend
yourself defend what you're doing
but The Prudent thing would be to stay
clear there's so many questions I want
to ask there one is about the violence
the legal aspect of that it's very
interesting uh you raise that in the
book but you know I do want to bring up
something I probably disagree with you
on which is uh you say that there's not
a significant difference between the
different variations of the n-word
the one the or maybe maybe you don't I
just listened to a bunch of your
interviews so uh there's the the version
with the
uh ER at the end version with a ga at
the end and then g r o at the end
these are all different versions and I
feel like in that list of powerful words
you know I feel like there's a
distinction yes I feel that the number
one uh spot is the one with the hard R
and
I don't know maybe you can
um
try to shed light but I feel like the
one that ends in GA is really far down
the list
in terms of modern culture so this is we
talked about the evolution of the words
and uh the word queer for example it
feels like because maybe because of rap
because of comedians because it's become
much more it lost so much of its power
well oh you don't think so no I think
there's a difference between nigger and
nigga I mean people make a distinction
between them
and I think that to the extent that lots
of people make a distinction between
them I think you know just as a
sociological fact they are different
um
I think that people who get upset
if somebody especially white people so
you know if a white person says nigga
and they're you know and and they and
their
you know sort of criticized about it and
they say well I didn't say nigger I said
nigga I believe me I think most people
you know most people who are mad at them
are gonna stay mad at them
um now you you raise the word you know
so nigger and nigga I would put
in a very different category than negro
educate me here well yeah sure I'm happy
to
um negro
is a
um also controversial
it's also controversial
um
but
negro
has never been viewed by a substantial
number of people
as a derogatory term at least in the in
with the same amount of animus the same
amount of
um
it's it's it's a very different kind of
word than nigger or nigga I mean after
all I mean you know negro negro Martin
Luther King Jr
you know you know uh all of his great
oratory negro you read the work of
um the great W.E.B Du Bois negro
uh you read the work of
my boss so for instance I use the word
negro
I use African-American black
Afro-American
uh but I also use the word negro now
there are some people who get really mad
at me because of you know when I use the
word negro
and this so for instance they're
students who've gotten really quite
exercised
and they'll say you know I'll be giving
a lecture and you know a handle go up
I'll call on somebody and they'll say
listen are you using the word negro
in its purely because of the historical
time period that you're using so you you
know is that why you're using it or are
you using it in your own voice
and often I'll say well I'm using it in
my own voice and they'll say well I'm
offended
we think that this is you know that's
old-timey it's derogatory
when this first came up I
I said let's pause for a moment
and I'll take that under advisement
and let me let me look into this and I
ended up writing an essay about it an
essay about the history
of the terms that black people have used
to describe themselves
it's a long list you know black colored
Afro-American African-American negro Etc
so I go through all that and I said now
let me just tell you I I know for
certain when I started using the word
negro
uh often in in writing I can date it
uh 1983 the summer of 1983 is when I
started using the word negro
in my professional life
as a lawyer
and I did it for a very specific reason
I did it because my boss demanded that I
negro capital in
now who was my boss
my boss in the summer of 1983
was associate Justice of the United
States Supreme Court Thurgood Marshall
known as Mr civil rights
now it seems to me
you're telling me that this word is so
out of bounds that this word is
derogatory nobody should ever use this
word does the fact that Thurgood
Marshall demanded that I use this word
does that complicate things a little bit
and so I think that people again you
know ought to know more
I mean I've encountered students who
don't know very much
but who want to lecture me yeah on on
word usage
uh because they know you know three
sentences
about current fashion
and hold it you know hold it
by the way I I push it further I
sometimes use the word colored and then
some people really don't like that
color well you know there's there's a
there's an organization still very much
uh alive in American life and law
the National Association for the
advancement of colored people the NAACP
they haven't changed their name
and as far as I'm concerned it's a
wonderful organization
um there are people who have used the
word colored that's what my grandmother
used colored
perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned
so again
uh we there are lots of different words
that one can use you can use different
formulations understand that people have
different preferences
fine
I have my preferences at least know
where I'm coming from
still words have power and they have
power to hurt and there's
um
there's a lot of reasons
that I could see to justify the use of
the word in its full form as you're
saying when in this conversation is
you're using it one of them is perhaps
uh fighting for the freedom to be able
to use those kinds of words uh so let me
ask you about the freedom of speech
um
and the censorship of the word uh should
the use of the N word be censored for
example on social networks
so we can come up with different places
we can say University campuses uh maybe
in um op-eds or I don't know but I think
social networks currently is a very
interesting place there's a lot of
conversations that are happening on them
there's the ability the technical
capability to sentence
to remove the ability of people to use
the word uh do you think they should be
allowed to use the word on Twitter for
example
um my response is it all depends on the
way in which the word is being used if
the word is being used to intimidate if
the word is being used to
um
uh terrorize
then no along with lots of other words
by the way I mean you can have you could
I could use the word I suppose gentleman
I mean I'm sure that I could conjure up
a way in which that word could be used
and of you know intimidating way so
I'm
should would I be happy
if there was a technology
that always blanked this word
n-i-g-g-e-r Imma Be I would be against
that
for one thing it would erase uh the name
of one of my books
and uh I'm I think that you know and I'm
I think the book actually has a lot of
useful information makes some useful
points
um if and by the way if let's imagine
let's imagine a world in which there was
a technology
that
blanked every time n i g g e r appeared
you would have what would that do
to novels by James Baldwin by Tony
Morrison by what would that do to the
speeches of Malcolm X Martin Luther King
Jr what would that do to the comedy
albums of Richard Pryor Kat Williams
Dave Chappelle
um you know what would that if if one
sort of plays that out
would one want to have all of those
blanks
in
important
literary
and political
uh performances
no I don't want such blanks
what I want I would want for people I
would want the word to be there and for
people to understand how to deal with
this word and by the way you've used the
word hurt an awful lot so let's talk
about her
um I think we need to be more careful
with the way in which we deal with hurt
because
um people can be justifiably hurt
you can have justifiably hurt feelings
and if somebody has justifiably hurt
feelings I then think that we should
turn to the person who has hurt those
feelings and say you have acted wrongly
because this person's feelings are
justifiably hurt in relationship to what
you've done
on the other hand
there are people who have hurt feelings
and frankly
it's unjustified so just just imagine
the following let's let's imagine that I
give a talk
about the greatness of Martin Luther
King Jr
and then let's imagine that a Ku Klux
klansman comes up to me after my talk
and says oh you have now hurt my
feelings
what am I supposed to be am I supposed
to apologize am I supposed to be
regretful that my talk about the
greatness of Martin Luther King Jr has
hurt the feelings of the klansmen no my
response is going to be you know you
need to reevaluate your feelings
because actually uh your feeling of hurt
is unjustified and no I'm you know no
there's no apology coming from me but
there there's a kind of line and perhaps
the gray area and maybe the word hurt
has been overused because if you try to
avoid hurting
uh a small fraction of society that is
mentally weak in a way where everything
hurts them that's that's the wrong way
to build a society but if we flip that
upside down and say trying to maximize
the amount of love in the world
uh and think about decisions we make in
terms of the language you use to try to
maximize the amount of love and not just
short term but long term okay and that's
where freedom of speech is very powerful
because it's a short-term painful thing
often but long-term beneficial thing
just having freedom and so there's where
the question of the n-word starts to
come in
how much
uh
how do we think about its use on the
internet on college campuses in a way
that maximizes the amount of love and
compassion and camaraderie in the world
I think that's good and I'm you know I
would associate myself with
uh your vision how can we maximize how
can we maximize love no I love that I I
think that's great so let's let's take
that on
um I doubt that the way of doing that
is to
um
uh erase
the infamous inward
I doubt that the way of doing that
is to
say to people
we understand that your feelings are
really hurt and we're going to do all
that we can
to avoid this symbolic action you know
maybe this word or maybe this symbol we
we're going to really we're going to do
all that we can to suppress it
so that we can have a more loving
Universe I doubt that that's the way to
do it I think a better way to do it I
think a better way to do it
would be to fully educate people
including educate people such that
you see that over there
that is the uniform of the Klu Klux Klan
I want you to be educated about the
uniform of the Klu Klux Klan so that you
can look at the uniform of the Ku Klux
Klan and know what it's about you're not
terrorized by it
you're not immediately you're not you
know you don't see it and sync to your
needs and start wailing and crying
you don't see it and say I'm traumatized
no you don't do any of that you see it
you understand it if somebody asks you
about it you're fully prepared to talk
about it
seems to me that that attitude that
Poise that strength that knowledge
would be a better way of equipping us
to have a more loving world and by the
way just so you know I would say that
about the swastika I would say it about
the infamous inward I would say it about
all of the things that we're talking
about it would be better for people to
be educated
so that they are not traumatized
so do you
you know uh
the n-word should not be
removed from
um Huck Finn Adventures of Huck Finn or
from the works of James Baldwin attorney
Morrison not at all in fact it seems to
me that the the boulderization
of uh of of these great artists literary
you know work is as far as I'm concerned
highly objectionable highly
objectionable
when is it okay for a white man to say
the n-word with a hard r
well you know
um here we need to focus on the word say
is it ever okay for anyone you know
black white pink yellow I don't care red
orange is it okay for anyone to use this
word in a way
uh to put down people to terrorize
people to intimidate people answer no
you know and I'd say that black person
I've seen I mean by the way I've seen
black people use this word to try to
intimidate put down other black people
bad so I'm against it with a black
person white person doesn't matter
on the other hand on the other hand
um
imagine
um
imagine a
white person
who is
giving a lecture
on the history of American racism
a lecture on the history of American
racism
and in giving that lecture
quotes
the you know
uh
white racist politicians
who until fairly recently in American
Life use the infamous inward
so imagine a white history Professor
giving a lecture about the history of
American racism and says in 1948
this is what so and so running for the
presidency of the United States said and
then
quotes
a paragraph or two
in which the infamous inward
is featured is that bad no that's not
bad no that's not bad
sounds like a perfectly good lecture and
I'm glad that you put the infamous
inward in there so that we can see that
as recently as 1948 people who were
running for the presidency in the United
States openly use the word that does not
bother me
I'll say this too now you know somebody
says well you know nice job Kennedy but
you've you've you've you know you've
limited it to over here you've put it in
an academic setting
what about other settings it does not
bother me let's imagine somebody who's a
comedian a white comedian
who is
um
satirizing
uh word usage
let's imagine a white comedian
who uh is satirizing our current
practice
and wants to poke fun
at the way in which
um you know let's imagine you have a
black rapper
who invites people on stage and let's
suppose they invite a black person on
stage and they're perfectly happy when
the black person
full out with you know their lyrics
they invite a white person on stage
the white person is you know that
doesn't really you know sort of
mystified but it comes on stage and full
out with what the rapper says including
the infamous N word and then the black
rapper gets mad
imagine the white comedian who satirizes
that pokes fun at that
and in poking fun at that says the
infamous N word am I angry no I'm not
angry not angry at all what if in the
process of satirizing that comedian is
not very funny you say that it's a bad
joke you were not funny okay
I don't object I don't object to the use
of the infamous inward I just like you
know you're not very funny
but because there's a there's a line
when the joke is not funny it just seems
like the the comedy is used as a cover
to actually say something hateful it's
interesting thing about comedy
I feel like the funnier you are
the more you can get away with probably
and that's something to do with the the
thing we said earlier which is when you
use words that have power you should do
so with skill and competence and uh the
responsibility those words carry again
the cases that I'm most familiar with
are the cases involving uh teachers
professors you know academic and it is
said sometimes oh you know why do I
object I object sometimes people say
because
uh up you know I suspect that this
teacher just wanted to say the word and
that all of this is a cover a pretext
do I you know in my sense my sense of it
is no I don't think it's a pre-text if
you know if it's pretextual that's bad
but in my experience I have not seen
that I don't believe that that's what's
going on I agree with you on that but
sometimes I do see people that kind of
have this uh fly
flying towards the light desire to say
something
um
controversial and edgy and they don't
realize that there's a responsibility
there there's a skill they should you
shouldn't just say I mean actually when
comedians first start out they'll
sometimes go into that church or they'll
say edgy stuff that's totally not funny
and then you realize this is not
like the edgier the thing the more
skills required to really serve like uh
if you're if you're cooking as a chef a
poisonous fish there's a responsibility
on how to cook the damn thing so you
don't poison the people eating it I
would agree
um but to get back to your question
let's imagine that somebody produces a
new set
of Lenny Bruce albums yeah so Lenny
Bruce White
Lenny Bruce used the term nigger in his
sets sure did question would I want
Lenny Bruce's albums now
to be purged
of the infamous inward my response
absolutely not as another follow-on sort
of question
what you think I've seen um interviews
you've done about this particular book
the title of those interviews on YouTube
and elsewhere would use the full word
what do you think about that should I
use this word in the title
in my view the answer would be yes
again are there are people I've been on
interviews I've you know been on stage
with people who
um had a different conclusion reached
and uh you know I was I respect a
different way again uh
there there is a place for for euphemism
again it all you know it all depends I'm
not I'm not offended let's imagine let's
imagine that you posted this
and you had asterisks instead of
spelling it out would I be offended no I
wouldn't be offended uh I would prefer
the full spelling but I would understand
where you're coming from would it offend
me now I wouldn't offend me well here's
the weird calculation is which version
of the word in the title as silly as
that is
uh uh brings more love to the world hmm
it's hard and basically your answer is I
don't know
your answer is kind of you have to do it
and find out
I'm not sure again you know there's
certain questions in which there's
certain questions you're not gonna
we're not really going to no there's no
sociologist who's going to be able to
tell us that so what do we do then then
we go to
secondary
positions
and my secondary position is
I don't know one thing that I hold on to
however very strongly
is uh the virtue of openness the virtue
of transparency the virtue of freedom
and I feel as though
if I'm holding on to those things
if I'm trying to engage in a serious
conversation
in which I'm trying to make other people
understand me and I'm listening
carefully to other people
I feel at ease
I feel at ease I feel
uh this is going to eventuate in
something positive
and
you know I feel okay
you are at Harvard you're one of the
most respected people in the history of
Harvard
um that said you did write a book with
the n-word in it and you also have a lot
of opinions that challenge uh the
mainstream perspectives on race from all
sides well hopefully we'll get to talk
about some of them
um but what's your view on Harvard and
universities in general and speech yeah
did you feel pressure from any direction
on
um on first of all the title of this
book the content of the book and in
general your views on Race yeah
I am very laudatory of Harvard
University
um I've been at Harvard since uh 1984.
I
think it is a wonderful place to work
I
um there has not there I have
uh you know in in the various positions
I've taken with is in particularly with
respect to this book or all my other
books what is Harvard University done
Harvard University has done nothing but
Provide support sustenance encouragement
um you know I think that uh people get
down on Harvard University I would say
to anybody imagine the following imagine
that the ethos of Harvard University
became the governing ethos of the United
States overnight
tomorrow we would wake up in a much
better United States of America
I um you know I I have
um I've been supported by Harvard
University I think well of Harvard
University that's not to say that I
don't have criticisms of it
but um
by and large Harvard University more
than by and large overwhelmingly it has
provided me and I think it
overwhelmingly provides my colleagues
with a work setting in which they can do
their work uh without fear
and you know that's a good thing are
there certain are there certain you know
aspects of Harvard University about
which I'm critical yeah sure uh by the
way I think a few people rightfully
wrongfully would um
disagree with you that if the ethos or
Harvard University took over the country
it'd be a better place but there's a lot
of interesting ways to break that down
because Harvard is not one of these
though there's a lot of things going on
that are very interesting yes uh but one
of the things that's happening is uh the
disproportionate and kind of aggressive
growth of the administration versus uh
faculty and students I I think the power
universities should always be with the
faculty and the students that's where
the beauty is that's where the
flourishing happens and the more you
have kind of rules and bureaucracy and
all this kind of stuff the less powerful
the university is I think that uh at my
University and at many universities
that's right there's too much
bureaucracy too much regulation
uh and you know are there are there
dangers
to freedom of expression
at my University and at other
universities answer yeah there are
there are so
uh and this has really hit home for me
there was a there was a period of time
in which I was I was getting off of you
know I I had gotten I'd gotten off of
all boards I was just doing my work
forget it I'm just going to do my work
I'm not going to be on you know
associated with any organizations in the
last five years that has changed quite
dramatically I have I have gotten on
various I've associ I've reassociated
myself with various organizations mainly
organizations involving academic freedom
because
of what's going on uh at you know on
University campuses again I have been at
least thus far thus far
uh this hasn't pinched me where I live
but
um you mean in the space of ideas in the
space of ideas and the space of speech
in the face of you know teaching you
know I I haven't I haven't been pinched
but I am concerned about things so for
instance
let's imagine that you're applying for a
job you know you want to be an assistant
professor
or let's suppose that you're seeking a
promotion
uh in on many University campuses you
are asked to give a Dei statement
in which you say
um I plan to you know you know one one
of the reasons why you should hire me or
one of the reasons why you should
promote me is because I'm going to you
know Advance the you know the Dei
uh Ambitions diversity equity and
inclusion for people don't know this is
the general the set of programs uh that
most universities now have yes
that's right so you know you've got to
sort of
you know basically
what you're being asked to do
whether they say it explicitly or not
they don't say this explicitly but this
is what they're being this is what is up
what you're being asked to do is to say
I'm down with
the diversity equity and inclusion
ethos program policy campaign
and here's what I've done that shows
that I'm down with this program
and therefore I'm okay
well you know a lot of what I do would
fit very comfortably within that but
let's suppose that I didn't just suppose
I didn't like this
and by the way there's certain aspects
of the Dei you know industry that I
don't like
you mean to tell me that uh you know I'm
being judged at an academic institution
let's suppose I want to be a chemist
let's suppose I want to be a physicist
let's suppose I want to be I don't care
uh you know a you know a Critic of
literature
uh I oppose this program I don't you
know I'm I I don't think this is the way
in which higher education should be
going
should I have to on pain of
relinquishing my ability to be hired
uh should I have to sign on to this uh
just suppose and let's change it around
let's not make it a Dei campaign let's
make it a make America great again
campaign
what would we think then
let's suppose it was something that said
instead of it saying Dei let's make it
let's make it say
um the advancement of American
capitalism as we know it
we want you to be down with that what
have you done that shows us that you
believe in the advancement of capitalism
in America
would I be happy about no I would say
this is no
well no with respect to these as far as
I'm concerned
with the you know the Dei statements oh
here's another one
um I just learned and in fact I mean
there's certain things that are
happening
and I must say I mean I'm in Academia
but I it's it's news to me I didn't know
no until relatively recently about
positionality statements
so these are statements in which
somebody writes an article
let's suppose you know I write an
article
and
um
it's not enough for me just to submit my
article to some law review or some you
know some other sort of Journal
no in addition to me submitting My
article
I've got to give a a personality
statement in which I say whether I am
you know gay or straight or whatever
what have you in which I say my race in
which I say my nationality in which I
say my you know my stance toward this
ideological position or that ideological
position
interesting what
is this uh uh becoming a
kind of a standard I don't know how
widespread it is I know there was a
night a very good article in the New
York Times
uh a couple of days ago about these
position alley statements and in fact
that's what sort of tipped me off
somebody had told me there's a law
review at my home institution and I had
a friend
who sort of mentioned this offhandedly
and who said well I submitted an article
to this journal
and I was a little bit taken aback in so
far as
they did have me fill out a
questionnaire
in which in which
I was required
to State my race State this state that
state the other
and
you know
um
as far as I'm concerned well
what does that have to do
with
a proper assessment
of somebody's work
This concerns me
um I'm concerned about the fact you you
know a little while ago you mentioned
a little while ago you mentioned the
word negro
uh at I was talking with colleagues a
couple months ago and somebody mentioned
that
uh this word had come up in their class
because what had happened was
one student was
reading from a Supreme Court decision
and the word negro was part of what they
read out and another student held up his
hand
and said to the student who was reading
a you should be careful
because you know I find the word negro
offensive
and you need to be careful about even
saying a word
that would be offensive to someone and
this person and then you know the
teacher was you know well you know you
know what should I say in those
circumstances you know what should I
have said
and I volunteered you know and you know
and you know and I said well gosh that's
really interesting because see if that
had come up in my class
um I would have said well frankly I
don't you know I don't see what the the
I don't even see what the big deal is
because I use the word negro
and
[Music]
um
you know uh Harvard University is not on
you know on some Island that is
you know apart from everything else
that's happening in the world if these
things are happening in other places if
they're happening at Stanford if they're
happening at Yale if they're happening
at Columbia
uh you know they're gonna happen at
Harvard
um but thus far and I'm I'm I am most
especially
experienced in life at Harvard Law
School
Harvard Law School Is An Open
environment in which ideas are uh tested
and they are tested uh fully
and uh it's it's it's because of that
that I say I have been fully supported
at Harvard Law School feel that it is an
excellent place in which to do work I'm
I'm a fan I am a fan and I'm not
embarrassed to say it I am a fan
uh of uh of of my workplace Harvard Law
School I'm very happy to be associated
with Harvard Law School zooming out uh
in general in education
um there's something called critical
race Theory
um can you comment on what are your
thoughts about uh
this kind of perspective on race and
race in America uh to the degree that
it's becoming a part of the education
program okay so the first thing I want
to say what is it well the first thing I
want to say about critical race theory
is that critical race theory has
become a term so I'm going to put
quotation marks around the term critical
race Theory
we can we I'm in a minute I'll talk
about critical race Theory without
quotation marks but to begin with I want
to talk about critical race Theory
because the reason why people are
talking about critical race Theory so
much now is because politicians
mainly Republican
right-wing politicians
have
created a boogeyman
critical race Theory with quotation
marks around it they have created a
boogeyman
and they have tried to make it seem as
though this Boogeyman
believes all sorts of ideas that
Americans should loathe
and that Americans should fear
and they've created this Boogeyman and
they've created it and they've done a
very good job of creating the Boogeyman
and they have mobilized uh sufficient uh
um you know public support such that you
know there are a number of states that
have passed laws
are prohibiting the teaching of
so-called critical race Theory now the
first thing I want to say about this is
that
um this campaign this these laws these
various policies telling teachers don't
teach this and don't teach that and you
can't you can't use this book you can't
use that book
this is a frightening encroachment
on freedom
freedom of speech freedom to learn
freedom to listen freedom to read
that's terrible and it's one of the most
frightening things that has happened in
American Life in recent memory so that's
the first thing I want to say about
so-called critical race Theory now now
I'll say something I'm going to take the
quotation marks off of the term critical
race Theory
critical race theory is as a sort of a
you could have a nice conversation about
actually what it is
um one way of viewing it is to say that
well critical race theory is a community
of ideas
that comes from a community of people
the community of people would be people
in legal Academia
in the
um
you know the period 198 starting and
probably the middle of the 1980s
it would be associated with people like
Derek Bell it would be associated with
people like Kimberly Crenshaw people
like Charles Lawrence people like
Richard Delgado people like Mary matsuda
and these are folks who
held
uh embraced a couple of you know they
they articulated a couple of
propositions one of their propositions
was that
um
liberal
race policy
was insufficient
they would say that
um the racial policies of
a person like my old boss Thurgood
Marshall they'll live you know the
Liberal Liberal racial policies were
insufficient
to Grapple fully with the pervasiveness
and the depth and intensity of American
racism their their basic claim and I
think by the way it was a good claim
their basic claim was that American
racism is more Central
more deeply embedded in American Life
than uh most people perceived including
liberals and I think there was a lot of
strength to that proposition
um
but then they also took on some other
propositions with which I was in very
strong disagreement
so I think it's perfectly fine to say
that racism is a force in American Life
that is deeper more pervasive more
stubborn more resilient than I think
people often you know often understand
often perceive
but then some of the folks you know in
critical race Theory
um push further
uh one of the propositions that some of
the people in critical race Theory took
was the proposition that um
uh America was doomed
to always be a country
that would be governed
according to the dictates of white
supremacy
uh Derek Bell who was a colleague of
mine and a friend of mine took that
position he talked about the permanence
of racism in American life and he took
the position that the various changes
that had been wrought in American Life
were really you know mainly cosmetic
uh they didn't amount to a whole lot I
mean Derrick Bell took the position you
know the second reconstruction the Civil
Rights Movement
well yeah it made changes but at the end
of the day black people were still you
know after the second reconstruction
were still in a position of
almost you know you know I don't know
some of them would even say Neo slavery
well I think that's ridiculous
uh the second reconstruction changed a
lot
and as for neo-slavery neo-slavery we
talking about uh uh a black American was
President of the United States between
the years 2008 and 2016.
I mean what what are we talking about
here
uh there's been a tremendous change
and I think people ought to understand
that now
am I saying that everything is peachy
keen and all right no
uh the United States is still
uh to a very large extent still a
pigmentocracy but that doesn't mean that
a lot hasn't changed a lot has
so I disagree with certain tenets of
critical race Theory and have been very
outspoken in my disagreement if there's
another one up by the way I need to
mention because we've talked so much in
our discussion about freedom of speech
freedom to teach freedom of listening
another big problem that I've had with
some of the people who
talk of themselves as critical race
Theory people
has to do with their attitude towards
freedom freedom of speech
some critical race Theory people
think that
the American legal system is wrong
in the latitude
that it gives to what they call hate
speech or the latitude that it gives to
what they would view as racist beliefs
uh some of some of the people who
associate themselves with critical race
Theory think that racist beliefs
or to be expunged
with the aid of state power if need be
well I'm against that
and
um you know I think we were at a moment
a an ironic moment
in which
actually it's the right wing that has
embraced some of the ideas that were
championed by some of this some of the
people who call themselves critical race
theorists you know they say oh we ought
to expunge
hate speech
well the right wing is saying this
critical race Theory that's hate speech
so let's expunge it
and
um so I you know again I've been very
outspoken in my criticism
of uh some of the illiberal
dimensions
of critical race Theory so I've you know
I've been a Critic of
certain features of critical race Theory
I have uh applauded certain features of
critical race Theory
um you know critical race Theory you
know there's some aspects of it that I
think have been useful there's some
aspects of it that I think have been you
know profoundly wrong-headed
um
so that's where I am and I certainly and
you know above all
I certainly am against
any efforts
to
remove it
from you know the intellectual Universe
it is a part of our intellectual
Universe people ought to know about it
and people ought to debate it and people
ought to be free to make up their minds
to conclude what they will about the
stress and weaknesses of critical race
Theory
and uh we'll talk about
the pessimistic and the optimistic
perspective on race in the history of
the 20th century in America I think you
have very interesting perspectives there
but before that I'd love to look at the
current moment
and um you had a conversation with Glenn
Lowry and John McWhorter and
from there it became clear to me
I think John made clear how important to
uh the conversation about race is
policing into in today's society that
that's where a lot of African-Americans
feel is sort of the the Pinnacle of
racism sits the people that believe
there's still racism in America there's
still a lot of racism in America that's
where it is so um
foreign to what degree do you think
there's widespread institutional racism
and policing yeah well
uh my first book
yeah was a book called race crime in the
law
and uh 1997 1997. wow
as time flies time flies
um
unfortunately
um
the
the impetus behind that book
stands
that book was
propelled
by a sense that with respect to the
administration of Criminal Justice
uh African-Americans
are
uh feel deeply aggrieved
and they feel deeply aggrieved with good
reason
and they feel deeply aggrieved with good
reason in at least two dimensions
on the one hand
uh African-Americans suffer
from under protection and in fact in
that book the central theme of that book
was that black Americans suffer from
under protection if you take a look at
the broad
you know the sort of the broad
trajectory of American history
and ask yourself
what you know in what way have black
Americans been
most
oppressed
well
take a look at
the Antebellum Period
period before the abolition of slavery
before the abolition of slavery
in the the locales where most black
people resided namely the slave states
in a lot of those areas question was
there a crime called the murder of a
black person
answer for a long period the answer was
no there might have been a tort you know
so of a white person killed the slave a
killed a Slave
uh that person could be sued
because they had they had injured the
property
of another
and would have to pay money to you know
for that but had they committed a crime
answer no
um
in the Antebellum Period
were black women protected
against the crime of rape
in Most states the answer was no there
was no such crime
let's go to after
you know slavery is abolished
thank God slavery is abolished then
let's see you know what happens what you
know so we hear lynching lynching
between the from from 1890
until let's say 1930.
well they you know in 1890 there were
there was probably you know I would say
there's probably on average a lynching
every day in the United States you know
well over 300 lynchings
uh it goes down that was the case in the
1890s probably the first decade of the
20th century and then it starts going
down
what was lynching about
lynching was about black people being
executed
outside the law
did the legal system do anything about
that answer no
you know you you show me show me cases
in which people were prosecuted
criminally
for engaging in lynching
you come up in most places with a null
set
black people suffered the under
protection of the law do black people
still suffer the under protection of the
law the answer is yes and people talk
about the Kerner Commission report 1968
uh black people were asked you know with
respect to the police
what's your what's your main complaint
in many places the main complaint was we
don't have police protection
you know when when things happen to us
when our houses are burgled
when our businesses
are um encroached upon by robbers when
our businesses are robbed
when we're assaulted
you know nothing happens
the police protect white people they
don't protect us
under protection
our society right now if you take a look
at the statistics
who is most liable to be raped robbed
the victim of assault
uh what have you
black people
I mean and then it's and it's not even
close
under protection
so that's one way in which the
administration of Criminal Justice
harms black people by not
doing what government is supposed to do
which is protect us
the 14th Amendment you know
protect equal protection I underline
protection of the law
so that was a big theme of race crime in
the law now second thing second and this
is a thing that gets most attention
and it's important I think that the
under protection story does not get
enough attention but then there's a
second story The Second Story is that
black people
have historically and still today
uh black people or subjects of invidious
racial discrimination when it comes to
when it comes to
um police action
so you know
uh
walking down the street
you have
a black person who's let's say 20 years
old you have a white person who's 20
years old let's make the men they're
both just walking down the street
and the question
attitude of the police towards these two
an attitude you know is a complicated
thing it can show itself in various ways
it can show itself in a look
it can show itself in who who gets the
look
you know
black persons you know walking down the
street or running down the street
white persons walking down the street or
running down the street
uh what happens with respect to the
police
um
let's suppose that you know who who gets
the second look
who is followed
who is detained for a moment
well some of it uh is just a on a small
tangent I apologize to interrupt but
attitude is an interesting one
um because a lot of it a lot of the
interaction doesn't show up in the data
so detained for example starts showing
up in the data but before then the
second look the third look the first
look this is where the gray area of
conversation happens because uh
very much so culture and Society happens
in the stuff that doesn't often show up
in the data yep
yep so I tell you uh this really came
home to me
several years ago I was I was in New
York City
and it was at a time when
there was a lot of discussion over the
um stop and frisk stop and frisk
basically you know racial profiling on
the street I was walking I was I was I
was in Harlem
I'm walking down the street
and
frankly you know the police weren't
bothering me I'm just walking no the
police weren't bothering me but you know
I'm of a certain age
I I did notice though I was I was
looking at the police
and
the way that the police
attitude you know had to do with body
posture it had to do with that's right
who got a second look it had to I
noticed I'm walking in the street I'm
walking in Harlem
they're you know they're they're white
people on the street you know most of
the people that were black
some some Hispanic
the level of contempt
the level of animus
the level of unfriendliness
that was pouring off the cop the police
they weren't they didn't say anything no
they didn't detain they didn't say
anything
it was palpable I could feel the
attitude that was being
being directed at the young black men
and the thing is see the thing is
it's not as if this doesn't matter it
matters because the way I saw it these
young black men knew they felt
the contempt that the police were
shedding and this was going to have a
consequence the consequence it was going
to have is let's imagine that the police
did say excuse me
um
uh you know what are you up to
now if you have been feeling this
contempt
if you feel like the officer who was
asking this question doesn't like you
doesn't know anything about you but just
doesn't like you on site
you might answer in a certain sort of
way
you're not going to give the cop the
benefit of the doubt and basically think
well you know policeman's just you know
asking me this you know probably just
trying to make the neighborhood safe
well if if that's your feeling you know
the police was just asking me this
trying to make the neighborhood safe
well officer the reason why I'm here is
such and such
and you know thanks for your service
that's one response
another response is
I'm not going to tell you anything
you know I'm not going to tell you
anything I know that you don't mean me
any I don't I know that you don't mean
me any good I'm not gonna tell you
anything am I free to leave
and then the cop having heard that
then says something bad you know after
five minutes what do you have you have
an altercation on your hand
and I I felt that and that is part
and you're absolutely right that's not
written down it doesn't get to court
it's it's it's it's it's it's there
but it's it's an important part of
street life
it's an informal part of Street and it
has Ripple effects because that young
black man will probably talk shit about
that cop later that day so the narrative
persists and then the cop will also talk
shit and then there's these narratives
and I think the content is such a it's
such a powerful thing it's so hard to
disentangle because you're absolutely
right the young man
let's suppose that the story ends quote
well right
he's going to go
and he's gonna be talking with his
friends and he's going to say let me let
me tell you what just happened to me
and his friends are going to say oh yeah
that doesn't surprise me let me tell you
what happened to me
and you know for two hours this goes on
the anger the feeling of humiliation the
feeling of a grievement
grows
it's disseminated
and that's part of what we have but
that's not all of that's not that's that
that's you know that's a important part
of what we have but we have it's even
worse than that because then you ask the
question
you know what about what about
things we do know
um I know this from you know from my
teaching
this was brought up
you know there was a lawsuit in New York
City
and notice I didn't say you know I
didn't I didn't say Birmingham Alabama I
didn't say Atlanta Georgia I didn't say
Tallahassee Florida I didn't say you
know the Deep South I didn't say Montana
I didn't say Idaho New York City
yeah
Cosmopolitan Place Metropolis
in New York City the police were
challenged with respect to their
policies
a judge wrote a very lengthy opinion
and the facts were rolled out and the
facts were really quite horrifying
people they were there were there were
there were black men who had been
stopped many many times it wasn't just
once
over and over and over again
under circumstances in which they ought
not have been stopped
and you know this has real consequences
it doesn't just show up here though of
course it also shows up in other places
with respect to the administration of
justice
and uh we still have uh you know a big
problem now you mentioned you know the
police
if you ask yourself
who are the state agents
that are most
consequential
the police
I mean you walking down the street what
other agents
have guns on them
what other agents are authorized by the
law
to shoot you under certain circumstances
it's the police the police are the most
consequential agents of the state that
most people interact with I mean there's
there's uh to push back a little bit of
consequential in it in in the physical
sense but if we return to the power of
the psychological sense of contempt I
would say store clerks and stuff like
that can also be a source they're not
agents of the state right uh but if we
look at the landscape of contempt which
throughout the 20th century
you know uh or the bus right
you can experience the same kind of
contempt UK in other aspects of society
but yes the cops can I with consequences
still put the police the policemen
or the police person
is the person walking down the street
with a gun gun yeah
and if you think about the way in which
the law
the the extent to which the police are
authorized
to use their Force the police have
extraordinary
uh you know extraordinary Authority you
know you look you're you're driving your
car
and you're speeding
the police can arrest you right then and
there
and take you to jail
that's an extraordinary power but they
also have because of that the leverage
just one human to another they have more
leverage to be an asshole and the show
contempt to you to be to be the Lesser
to lean into the Lesser aspects of their
Natures all humans can just to be an
asshole to show contempt you had a bad
day
they have the the more freedom to do
that yes and that's why that's why
uh police officers are very important I
recognize I mean I I you know I know
police officers they have a very
difficult job
uh a very important job very important
again remember what I talked about under
protection I want the police to protect
me I want the police to protect me from
the rapist the robber so I you know the
police I'm with the police we need good
policing
we but
we need good policing and for good
policing we need accountability and one
of the scandals one of the just absolute
scandals of American law is the extent
to which the police are not held
accountable
it's absolutely remarkable the the
degree to which American law
fails to properly hold police
accountable
they have an important job a difficult
job I want them to be very well paid
as far as I'm concerned you know we
should be if police should make more
money
uh they should be given given the
importance of what they do they should
have more respect more Prestige more
money with all of that they should be
held accountable
and the way things are now they're not
held accountable and every day we see
the consequences in our newspapers or
just you know talking with people so
what do you make of the different
perspective on this uh from to to bring
up a person that I'll probably speak
with Heather McDonald
who wrote uh
a book called war on Cops and uh will
often bring up
the stuff that does show up in the data
to show the disproportionate amount of
homicides committed by African Americans
and uh we'll also justify racial
profiling on that basis in stop and
frisk programs and we'll also bring up
things like uh the Ferguson effect uh
saying that because of this pushbacks
pushback and all the stuff we've been
saying about
police
in those areas the police will step back
and crime will increase I was in one
debate with her and one of the things
that I said is it was a debate that was
that was sponsored by the Federalist
Society conservative Legal Group
you know these were law conservative law
students at Harvard Law School we had a
she made a presentation and they asked
me to respond and one of the things that
I said was
when we're talking about the police
I'm
um
I'm disappointed
with the
uh
reaction
of some of my conservative colleagues
and I would consider her to be one of my
conservative colleagues because what are
the sort of the
what are some of the
the important
precepts
of conservatives
one very important precept of
conservatives limited government
limited government
you know would a conservatives talk
about the tendency
of government to overreach itself and
governmental agents
to overreach themselves
and I say you're right
you're right I I you know right on
why is it that you somehow forget that
when you're talking about the police
you're never you you seem to be
unaware of this tendency that is so much
in your Consciousness and other places
but now when you're talking about the
police
you make it seem as though I'm you know
other people are being paranoid
when they talk about the danger of
overreach we need to be very careful
about the danger of overreach another
thing with respect to the pollution what
to conservatives
transparency in government
you're right
you're absolutely right we need
transparency in government so why is it
that so often when we're talking about
policing
why is it that conservatives actually
embrace police unions
and are the enemies of transparency
why is it that you want to prevent the
citizenry from knowing that officers so
and so
has you know there have been 10
incidents in the last year in which
citizens have complained about office or
so and so don't you think that the
citizenry ought to know that why is it
that you want to keep that Under Wraps
so overreach transparency the tendency
or you know the problem of governmental
agent corruption
um why is it that those sorts of things
are forgotten about
when some conservatives by the way not
all conservatives not all conservatives
there's some conservatives
who has stuck
and appropriately sowed their guns
and have said a uh we need to make sure
that the police stay in their Lane we
need to make sure that the police do not
overstep constitutional bounds we need
to be we need to insist on transparency
there are some conservatives who have
taken that line and I salute them but
there are a lot of conservatives and I
would say Heather McDonald is one of
them who all of a sudden
become just you know totally uncritical
status when they're talking about the
police so the the overstepping overreach
the lack of transparency
um of course we see this kind of stuff
in uh foreign policy as well which is uh
starting military conflicts and a lot of
the supporters at least uh with the Iraq
and Afghanistan wars were conservatives
and and Hawks and so on so there's a lot
of hypocrisy in terms of principles and
so on
um
but maybe one question is
in this discussion about racism and
policing there was a lot of
um cops that might listen to this and
feel like they're not being
the profession is not being respected uh
they're not being heard
not being respected to the difficulty of
the problem they're facing and uh can I
just interact remember a few moments ago
I mean if if if I were in charge of
things if I were in charge of things I'd
pay police
more in fact much more
than they receive
um I do police have a very difficult job
extraordinarily difficult job I mean for
one thing you know sort of maintaining
the law the law that's a very
complicated thing the law
that's not an easy thing I mean I teach
law
I spend a lot of hours with very smart
people trying to understand the law very
difficult
so here we expect people to understand
the law at the same time that they are
grappling with people some of whom are
violent it's very difficult I respect
police officers and I said we need
police officers you did not hear me say
by the way so for so let's let's get
down to Brandt's tax
you did not hear me say defund the
police did you in fact to the contrary I
said defund
actually I want more funds
for the police I want to hold them
accountable I understand the difficulty
of their job
I respect the police I want people to
respect the police I also want the
police to respect
civilians and demand that they do
uh I am not a police abolitionist far
from it far from it again we need good
policing
uh for good policing we need good people
to a degree
it's almost philosophically maybe
practically
do you think police should be doing
racial profiling
profiling in general okay it's a very
difficult
philosophical moral
human question yeah so first thing we
need to do
and here we get back to the you know
early part of our conversation because
we focus so much on you know first part
of a word
here we have another word profiling
question what is racial profiling
now here we have you know in the weeds
uh we have people talking past one
another
I've been in conversations with police
officers and debates and
uh we talk past one another because we
are defining racial profiling very
differently if you ask I've been on I've
been in conversations with police
officers and they say oh I'm totally
against racial profiling and then I say
well you know sir what do you mean by
racial profiling and here's what they
say
racial profiling is when police officers
act against somebody wholly on the basis
of race
that is that gets rid of the issue
because
you know most police officers don't act
against anyone wholly on the basis of
race
you could have the most racist police
officer and that that police officer is
not going to act adversely against the
90 year old black woman walking down the
street with a cane okay so it's always
it's so there you know if you Define
racial profiling that way you're getting
rid of the issue
the issue is the proper issue is this
should the police
be able to act against someone
uh taking race into account as a factor
so let's imagine that a black person
who's 25 years old is walking down the
street right next to a white person
who's 25 years old
some people would say you know what
under those circumstances it's okay for
the police officer to give two looks at
the black person and only one look at
the white person why because the
statistics tell us that the black 25
year old there's much more risk of that
person acting in an unlawful way if you
take a look at you know crime statistics
and ask the question
um
uh with respect to you know homicide
with respect to robbery with respect to
various you know crimes
uh what's the what what is there a is
there is there a difference between the
white 25 year old and the black 25 year
old with respect to certain crimes the
answer is in certain places the answer
is yeah there's a difference and there's
a and there is a greater risk that the
black 25 year old has engaged in various
forms of criminality I'm not you know
that okay
under those circumstances what do I say
should the police officer therefore
be allowed to take action vis-a-vis the
black person as Oppo you know as against
the white person my answer is no
I'm fully willing to concede let's
conceive D for the point of art you know
for the point of discussion that there
is more risk
there might be
but
for
for reasons of constructing the sort of
society I want
we should not Empower agents of the
state
to act towards certain people
uh in a way that's you know adverse to
them
let me try to break this down in a
little different way
um
let's go back to
let's let's let's let's talk about what
happens when you want to get on an
airplane
you know it wasn't so low you know 9 11
wasn't all that long ago it was a while
ago but it wasn't all that long ago and
this very issue came up with the respect
to the profiling
of Muslims and there were some people
who said geez you know in the aftermath
of 9 11
profiling of Muslims makes sense
you know no hard feelings but you know
the 11 people who you know were on those
planes were all Muslims
now
there is a rationale you could just
simply say it's not it's not Prejudice
it's not animus it's not invidious it's
just
you know the facts take us this way well
the facts never take us this way there
are facts and then there is our choice
of how we want to respond to those facts
now you could respond by saying well
we perceive Muslims to be more likely
to you know do bad things on an airliner
you could you could respond in that way
on the other hand you could say no
we want a society
in which people or do not have to
Grapple
with prejudice on the basis of their
religion on the basis of their race
and to deal with that we are going to
demand we're going to demand that agents
of the state
act towards people in the same way
and so if that means
that
everybody getting on the airplane before
they get on the airplane has to
you know open up their luggage
and it slows things down
foreign but everybody has to open up
their luggage
I would prefer that
over a system in which we focus on
people who are Muslim and one of the
reasons and I'm gonna bring this back to
our to the racial thing one of the
reasons why I I want to insist upon that
is because if you know if we all have to
open up our luggage
what that means is we're all paying a
tax
for more security
and we're all likely to ask ourselves
hmm do we want to pay this tax whereas
if we focus simply on the Muslims and
allow the Muslims to be the only ones
who are sort of paying the tax
we'll force that on them
same in the you know black person white
person 25 years old walking down the
street
do we want to impose a racial tax on the
black 25 year old
some people would say yes I say that's a
mistake black people aren't stupid they
know that they're paying this tax
it is a violation of it seems to me the
rules that we ought to want to have to
govern our society
I say spread the costs
make the police deal with everybody
the same
um and don't don't allow a situation to
develop in which a group of people can
can
um accurately say
we are paying more of a cost than these
other people over here so it's a better
avoiding profile is uh
while it may have
uh costs on security in the short term
in the long term it's the embodiment of
the principles that all men are created
equal so it has a much bigger benefit
yes you know representing the fairness
yes that is uh at the core of the ideals
of this country yes
let me ask a big philosophical question
why do you think there is racism in the
world
oh now you've okay fine you've now
you've asked me a question which I throw
up my hands and I don't know will there
always be why is there tribalism are
humans always finding this way to divide
ourselves and
um
how bad of a problem is that it's a huge
problem I don't you know I mean I I
don't I'm not going to pretend that I
know enough
to Grapple in a satisfactory way with
such a question I mean to really grapple
with that question one really has to
have all you know a uh
a very broad
knowledge base in which they can make
comparisons I mean the world's a big
place now from from the little bit I
know about the world and I I I read I
read as much as I can I've been I'm a
very privileged character I mean I live
in a university so I'm reading
constantly and listening constantly
from what I gather the problem of
divided societies is a problem that is
worldwide
there's you know and it seems as though
it seems as though human Ingenuity is
such that
humans will find something
to divide over
you know it might be texture of hair
it might be
um uh you know complexion of skin
uh political ideology political ideology
if the texture if the texture if the
texture of skin
is the same
it'll then be well
you know you you wear these sorts of
clothes
you speak in this sort of way
um you believe this whereas I believe
that
I mean it seems like a human Ingenuity
is such they will humans will find some
way
of distinguishing themselves and then
they seem to want to embellish the
distinction it's not just a distinction
it's not just you believe this and I
believe this okay that makes the world
interesting you know let's talk about
what you believe and what I believe no
it's usually associated with you believe
this I believe this of course my way my
belief is superior to your belief
and
I want to put you down
and now we're headed towards War the
interesting thing is if I were to step
outside of this whole thing from an
alien perspective visiting Earth
I think America is one of the greatest
if not the greatest countries in the
history of human civilization and I
think that the the line between white
and black the racial struggle is the
thing that
in part made it a great nation there's
something about the division and the way
you alleviate that division through the
struggle for human rights that makes for
a great nation and so it's interesting
that the division is almost the fuel for
the greatness for our discovery of what
it means to be human what it means to be
or what Justice Means of
um and it's interesting that it seems
like there's the struggle that you're
you're where you're elucidating now but
that struggle itself is our search uh a
man's search for meaning and Justice and
freedom I think there's something to
that as you were speaking I was
immediately thinking of
a person who you know most jumped to
mine was The Great Frederick Douglass
so I mean here you have a person who in
my view is one of the great people in
the history of the world
and you know one of the things that
ironically enabled him to become one of
the great people of the world he was
born he was born into slavery
his overcoming
was the very thing
that in a sense made him
this Larger than Life figure and
I think there's something to you I will
say this because a minute ago you
mentioned optimism and pessimism
and
uh
I'd say in the last
few years
my feeling about the United States
has
changed
and it's changed in a somber way for
most of my life
for most of my life
I've been in the optimistic camp with
respect to my view of American race
relations
you know the the optimistic camp that
was the camp that's the camp that
believes We Shall Overcome
uh that's that's Martin Luther King's
camp I mean Martin Luther King you know
Martin Luther King you know hours before
he's killed I've been to the Mountaintop
I might not get there with you
but I've glimpsed the Promised Land
that optimism uh Frederick Douglass
would be in that would be in that
tradition
um there would be other people
uh wonderful good people who would be in
that tradition would you Sergeant
interrupt put in the pessimist account
would you put Malcolm X on the
pessimistic Camp the pessimistic Camp is
the more interesting I mean ideological
I mean it is it's the more interesting
camp because in the pessimistic Camp you
have I mean if I was going to list some
of my pessimists
pessimist number one Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson the author you know
principal author Declaration of
Independence he was also the author of
notes on the state of Virginia
and he said in notes on the state of
Virginia
basically we shall not overcome
uh he talked he said you know
um the black people
will always know
that their forebears were enslaved
and they will always be resentful of
that always be aggrieved by that
Jefferson did not think that we would
ever have in the United States a
multi-racial democracy
he was very critical of slavery now he
was a hypocrite he had slaves he sold
slaves
he was terrible in that way but he did
understand that slavery was horrible
but
he did not want he he all but he he did
not want to free the slaves for a
variety of reasons but and one reason
was because he thought that it would be
impossible to have a society in which
blacks and whites
were
equal neighbors he was thoroughly
pessimistic another pessimist Alexis de
tocqueville
thoroughly pessimistic
so who were some of the other pessimists
Abraham Lincoln
pessimistic that's why he was so
interested in colonization he basically
said you know I don't like slavery but
blacks and whites are not going to be
able to share the United States maybe
the best we can do is just you know put
blacks ship black someplace else can you
elaborate on that I I think people would
be surprised to hear oh yeah you will
put Abraham Lincoln in the pessimist
camp Oh Abraham Lincoln's thoroughly
pessimistic he was like he he believed
he was Auntie he he was anti-slavery
but he did not believe that blacks and
whites would be able to share the United
States together
and he was always very interested
therefore in colonization
even after the even during the Civil War
he was interested in you know maybe
maybe maybe all black people would all
black people be interested in maybe
going to Panama would they be interested
in going someplace else because you know
Lincoln was aware of how racist white
people were including himself
and he did not think that black people
and white people would be able to share
the United States
now there's the black nationalist
tradition you mentioned Malcolm Maxwell
before Malcolm X you know Marcus Garvey
um my father
my father was a thorough going pessimist
his view was a the United States was
born as a white man's country it's going
to remain a white man's country
uh and that's the way it is he was
thoroughly pessimistic you mentioned uh
just a brief aside about your dad that
uh when you moved to South Carolina to
Washington DC
um and you asked them why his response
to you was because either a white man
was going to kill me or I was going to
kill a white man yes
so he saw race as an important line that
divided people in the United States he
certainly did and he thought that the
line
my father did not
my father had passed away
before the elect before Obama was
elected I would have loved to have
talked with my dad what do you think he
would have said
and you've ridden you wrote a book about
the Obama press I did I did and I didn't
I never
what would my father has said my father
would have been delighted my father
would have been happy about his election
I do think though
I do think that my father would have
said I'm happy that Barack Obama has
been elected
hold on to your seats
let's see how the white people respond
so he would have predicted Donald Trump
I think that my father I think that in
2016 I think that in 2016 you would have
said I told you yes
yes I think that in 2016 my father would
have said
all of you people
who are talking about I don't know
what's happened to America and how could
this have happened and you know
no I think my father would have said
this is America being America
and what has happened
is that America has been
put off kilter
by a black family being in the white
house it is deranged millions of white
people and now this is coming home to
ruse I think my father would have
absolutely said in 2016 I Told You So in
2016 uh as you're saying is the reason
that you have at least uh dipped your
toe outside of the Optimus Camp into the
pessimist Camp I'm I yeah I want to be
careful here and I don't wanna
don't give up on the Optimus case I
don't wanna I don't you're right I don't
want to give up on The Optimist Camp I
don't I I it it I have been
my optimism has definitely been dampened
it has definitely been tested
I am certainly no I'm I am I am not
I am not uh
as a triumphalist as I once was
I am not as indignant as I once was in
my criticism of pessimists
but at this moment as we speak
you know am I more in The Optimist camp
that I'm in the pessimist today I'm
still probably more in The Optimist camp
but my optimism has been dampened
but as I speak
I have to say the following things and
I'd say the following things with my
father but again whom I Revere
great man
but if my father was sitting here with
us
I would say listen pop
uh uh it's absolutely true that the
country is more racist than I had
thought that is true
it's also true Pop That
the vice president of the United States
as we speak is a black woman
as we speak it's true that the Secretary
of Defense
now Secretary of Defense the secretary
of defense is the head of the Pentagon
the Secretary of Defense knows where the
button is okay this is not a little you
know this is not
a small out of the way thing this is the
SEC the Secretary of Defense
is a black man
there are a slew of black generals
there have been black secretaries of
State
there are black people who are the heads
of police forces there are black Mayors
there are black people who are the heads
of or you know some of our foremost
foundations
there are you know the the the the the
president-elect
of Harvard University
is a black woman
and we could go on and on and on and on
this is not you know we're not when I
was growing up when I was growing up
when I was let's say 10 years old we got
a magazine Ebony magazine every month
and in Ebony magazine you could turn to
the middle of Ebony and they would have
black firsts the first black person to
do this the first black person to do
this
you could read Ebony and frankly I could
tell you all of those for I knew their
names
now
I read stuff
you know the you know the the the
leading Cadet the chief Cadet
at the you know United States Naval
Academy
I'm reading I'm reading then I see a
picture
black woman
I didn't know that
back in the day I would have known that
now
has the United States changed
yes
uh is there racism yes
uh is it you know a substantial force in
American Life
regrettably tragically yes
has the United States changed yes and
again if we want to go International
the United States is not the only
country that is
a country that has wrestled with
deep division you think about I don't
know think about India think about you
know the United Kingdom think about
practically any large nation state
they've all grappled with divisions
if one asks about the United States and
the race question
and one puts on the table
that you know in
1865. now you know when I talk with
students I say 1865 they think oh my God
you know isn't that when dinosaurs roam
no it wasn't when dinosaurs run 1865
frankly is not all that long ago in 1865
the great mass of black people in the
United States had recently been released
from chattel slavery
the great mass of black people in the
United States in 1865 were illiterate
now
I mean it's absolutely it's it's an
absolutely extraordinary story
and so one of the difficulties I have at
this moment
is wrapping my head around
two stories that are in such tension
with one another one is the Continuing
Story of racism which is an awful story
but the other story
is a story that is encapsulated
in the title of a great book of History
by
um John hope Franklin
From Slavery to Freedom
and you know those are two stories in
American Life
and it takes an awful lot
put your mind around both stories and
I'm trying to well as an optimist I
think you put more value to the
overcoming side of the story
the overcoming of hardship the
overcoming of uh slavery of
discrimination
uh well since you mentioned illiteracy
from uh what is it 150 years ago let me
ask you about affirmative action you
wrote a book on the topic titles for
discrimination race affirmative action
and the law
uh first what is affirmative action
and uh maybe we could talk about what
your view is on it today sure well
affirmative action
uh refers to look racial affirmative
action because there's various sorts of
affirmative action you can have
affirmative action for veterans you can
have affirmative action for
um uh in-state residents let's suppose
you have a school you know the
University of you know blah blah blah
and we're gonna we're gonna We want to
reach uh we we're going to give a reach
out a a hand to boost help the people
who live within this state or we're
going to have a boost for veterans we're
going to have a boost for you know for
women
uh we're gonna have a boost for men in
certain circumstances
well we're the the the the the the most
the the type of affirmative action that
gets most attention and that's worth
noting as well
there's lots of different sorts of
affirmative action but when you say
affirmative action the type of
affirmative action that immediately
people are thinking about is racial
affirmative it seems like a race is at
the core of this American experiment
that we're part of in every part of its
uh bingo culture Bingo you know why is
it that you know we again you know
there's various there's various
ways in which institutions reach out to
help various sectors of our population
why is it that this is the one that
generates all of the pulling out of hair
and gnashing of teeth we can put that to
the side for a moment
racial affirmative action refers to
efforts in which institutions
um uh uh you know reach out to provide
assistance
to racial minorities now the reaching
out has can can happen in different ways
um a light form of affirmative action
might be reaching out in terms of
recruiting making a special effort to
make sure that uh young people let's say
in racial minority neighborhoods know
about your college
you know that's you know recruitment
um
on the other hand uh racial affirmative
action might take more you know might
take a stronger form and might take the
form of saying okay we have a
competition
and um
uh we think that there will be too few
racial minority kids
who do well enough in this competition
to to be admitted to our school so what
we're going to do is we're going to uh
in various ways uh give a boost
to the minority kids
um if if it comes down to you have two
kids uh they both you know I don't know
have
you know 99 on the test
there's one place left we only have one
spot left two kids
uh one's a black kid one's a white kid
they both got 99 we're going to give it
to the black kid
why well black kid
all there is to it the black kid we want
to you know maybe and then our Theory
you know maybe our theory is that black
people have been done wrong in the
United States and we want our
institution to contribute to making
amends that might be a theory another
theory might be
um you know uh we as a as we we think
that we'll have a more interesting
student body we'll have a better student
body a more you know better discussion
if they're more black kids on campus and
unless we make a special effort to bring
more black kids on campus uh you know
our our student body will be
overwhelmingly monoracial we'll just
have you know white kids a few Asian
kids a few Latino kids if there no black
kids here I don't know it'll it'll be
lacking an important aspect of American
life that's some sort of you know the
so-called diversity story so any of
their various theories
some are grounded like I said in
reparative Justice
some might be granted in distributive
justice so for instance when people say
nowadays you know
um we want a cabinet we want a team we
want a student body that looks like
America that might be a distributive
justice theory for why you want
affirmative action unless we reach out
unless we
reach out and give a boost to certain
groups
they won't be here
and we want a campus that looks like
America and we won't have a campus that
looks like America unless we give a
special boost to I don't know the Latino
kids unless we give a special boost to
Black applicants so reparative Justice
distributive justice or
third diversity we just want to have an
interesting student body and to have an
interesting student body we want you
know kids from a wide array of places we
think that that'll make for a better
campus more interesting campus those are
three justifications all of which
however are justifications for
in a competition
giving a special boost to some people
based on their race so what's your sense
can you make the case for affirmative
action and can you make the case against
it yeah I can make the case four and I
can make the case against the case four
I won't spend much time on this like I
said there are three
they're three
Main justifications
um your audience should know that
one
the justification that actually led to
affirmative action
is a justification that you don't hear
about in the courts because the courts
have said that that justification
is insufficient so the real
justification behind affirmative action
was you know in the late 1960s in the
aftermath of the Civil Rights Revolution
and the aftermath of the Civil Rights
Movement there was a feeling that well
okay fine we're not discriminating
against black people anymore but black
people have been disadvantaged
by the Discrimination that has been put
upon them
and this discrimination that was put
upon them
has disabled them
and so they go into competitions
and it's unfair
yeah they score less well on the
standardized test but
you know surprise surprise what the heck
uh they went to schools in which they
got the leavings of the white folks you
know the white folks
gave the black folks the old textbooks
that's what the black kids read the
white kids read the newest textbooks on
and on and on so
reparative Justice we're going to try to
repair
the scars left by past racial Injustice
and we're gonna and so it's sort of an
effort to overcome the vestiges of past
misdeeds that was one justification for
affirmative action and frankly I think
that's the justification that has always
been the predominant justification
whether people owned up to it or not but
that's one justification
the distributive justice justification
is is there like I say you know people
we want an integrated America we want an
America that looks like America
um in that justification
legitimacy is sometimes mentioned so for
instance
uh people will say things like
well
you know if we're gonna in the armed
forces you can't have an armed forces in
which
the you know the sort of the the people
on the ground
are you have a lot of people on the
ground who are people of color but none
of the people calling the shots none of
the generals
none of the made you know kernels are
people of color no and then you know the
the the the the people on the ground are
not going to stand for that
so for purpose of legitimation
we need to for for purposes of buy-in
we need to have a situation in which
people get the sense that
even if they're sort of low down
they're still part of the story they're
part of the team
so that's part of the sort of
you know just you know I don't know
distributive justice notion do you think
that's power to that I mean do you think
there's value there's correctness to
that kind of idea I think there's some
because for the application process for
different universities I think that
that's probably a driving narrative the
justification for for
well affirmative action I don't know
where we put Dei efforts because they
overlap but they're not perfectly uh
overlapping the reason that the school
so yeah as you know there is a case
it'll we'll know about it it'll be
announced sometime in the next month
uh well month month and a half
um there's a case of the Supreme Court
of the United States in which the
affirmative action program at Harvard
and the affirmative action program at
the University of North Carolina are
being challenged most people think
including me that the Supreme Court of
the United States
is going to limit if not
totally
seek to abolish affirmative action so
this is a very burning issue
as things currently stand
uh my University and other universities
Embrace affirmative action on the third
ground the diversity ground and what
they say
is
we need affirmative action because
affirmative action uh is good for
pedagogical reasons
now frankly
do I think there's something to that I
think there's a little something to that
with respect to some subjects
uh I don't think that's what's really
going on for the most part I mean if
that's what's really going on why why
don't we have more foreign students
you know why why isn't there a greater
effort to bring in more foreign students
why isn't there a greater effort to
bring in more I don't know uh religious
fundamentalists why isn't there a
greater effort to bring in and you could
just name
various groups that are you know you
hardly ever see them on campus so you
don't think this kind of effort of
driving towards diversity is um
uh rigorous enough I think it's often
pretextual I think frankly the real
reason has to do with
the belief and I think it's a good
belief I associate myself with the
belief it's it's just that because of
the legal rules the authorities can't
say this belief out loud
but it's still the case that a lot of
Institutions want to
help American society overcome its
racial past
the real animating Force now this thing
about
you know we'll have better classroom
discussions uh you know some discussions
I mean you know with some subjects
yeah listen I'm you know I'm in
ignoramus when it comes to physics my
sense of it is however that uh if you're
talking about physics you're talking
about physics and frankly it doesn't
much matter in terms of mastering
physics what the demographics of that
classroom are like well you either know
physics or you don't the interesting
thing I've noticed since doing this
podcast is uh one way it does matter
it's really lonely when you do a thing
and you don't see somebody that looks
like you doing that thing okay and it's
such a seemingly stupid thing why does
it matter if there's another person that
looks like you in this very shallow
sense but it seems to matter to people
and when I talk to for example women on
this podcast a lot of women reach out
saying how inspiring that is that's
interesting right like I I think we're
still human and we see people that look
like us
and uh this kind of narrow shallow
definition of diversity still matters
okay well you know I think I think
I think you've made a good point and
maybe so so let's go back to the physics
I mean let's suppose that
under one scenario there's a classroom
and a kid sticks his head in a black kid
sticks a set in the classroom and
doesn't see anybody else black there and
has to make a quick decision and says
yeah you know nah this ain't for me
versus they stick their head in the
classroom they see a smattering of other
black people in the classroom they say
let me try me try this and then they try
it and it turns out damn it they're you
know Albert Einstein
so you know to that extent I can see you
know
under that scenario maybe it does matter
so you know I'll have to recalibrate
still those are the three those are the
three leading justifications for
affirmative action you ask me where do I
stand with respect to affirmative action
oh no before we get to that are there
criticisms are the answer is yes there
are criticisms of affirmative action
affirmative action
is a policy like you know any policy any
policy is going to have some downsides
to it and affirmative action is no
different does affirmative action have
some downsides yes it does have some
downsides what are they well let me
mention a couple one
um
stigma
stigma so if if you have an institution
that says that it
reaches out to give a boost to certain
people
on a racial basis
they're going to be
people who observe that
and who are going to be thinking to
themselves hmm
if so and so is here and they were given
a special boost
doesn't that mean that they were not as
proficient
as the other people who were here and
who did not have that boost
so if they are not as proficient that
means that they might not be as good
they might not be as up to Snuff
is that part of our affirmative action
world yes it's part of our affirmative
action world yes
I'm a professor at Harvard Law School
one of the subjects I teach is contracts
uh actually that's probably the subject
I most enjoy teaching I think I most
enjoy writing about
racial conflict and the legal system but
as far as teaching I most enjoy teaching
contracts well on that very first day
on the very first day
when I you know 80 students come they're
especially the first year students
they're you know nervous
I show up
I'm quite sure that there's some
students there
who are thinking
okay well
is this guy as good
as my other teachers because you know I
know that uh you know institutions like
Harvard have made a special effort to
bring in people like this guy Kennedy
is he is good
well I mean I'm sorry if you have an
affirmative action
regime
people are going to think that and are
they crazy to think that no they're not
crazy to think that would no that's a
perfectly
logical thing for somebody to think
does it does it have an effect on me as
the teacher
he actually does have an effect on me
sure
um I'm aware that some people are
thinking that it doesn't I'm not you
know it doesn't
it doesn't you know make me shaking my
boots
am I aware of it yeah I'm aware of it
does it have an effect yeah it probably
does have an effect it probably does it
probably
it probably
makes me
uh
uh it probably makes me
redouble my efforts
because I don't want anybody to think
justifiably
that I'm less able than my colleagues
so
you know it's one of it's funny when I
was growing up my father used to tell me
over and over again Randy
Ty Ty you lose okay brother let me just
tell you that and he was telling me that
because when he was you know in in an
earlier time Tai Tai you lose
it was you know if it's even and there's
a choice to be made the white person is
going to get the benefit of the doubt
now under affirmative action
there's been a switcheroo
oftentimes it's the black person who
gets the benefit of the doubt but I'm
still in a situation yes
to avoid the stigmatization yeah that is
imposed by affirmative action but is
that stigma there yes it's there it is
there
um I'll tell you another way in which it
comes up from a student's point of view
I'll never forget this
it was in my second year Law School
it was in tax class
we had a very famous tax teacher
wonderful tax teacher on the very first
day of class
Professor bitker wonderful man wonderful
teacher Boris bitker
called on the very first person he
called on was a black student I remember
this as if it were yesterday called on a
black student it was a black woman
student
and I remember when he called on her I
remember
just
I felt
I I I felt as if the room got quieter
really I felt as if the room got quieter
and I know there was a real tenseness
Within Me
he didn't call on me could just go on
somebody else was a black woman student
and I felt
different
I felt as if I
was
uh
I felt as if I was somehow
uh at issue
I felt as if my place I felt as if my
status
was
you know some small degree
at issue
in the positive direction of the
negative just at issues at issue and so
now all of this is happening really
quickly he calls on the student
this is you know happening like in
seconds yeah and she responded and she
responded really strongly it was clear
she he asked her a question
she answered the question she answered
the question you know beautiful I mean
you know very strong comprehensive
wonderful response
now you might say okay well you know
smart student okay fine next
after class
after class I went up to her
and I clearly remember this I said
that was great
thank you
why
because I'm a black student
predominantly white institution Yale Law
School
and
I felt
some of the
again you know affirmative action
I felt
some of the burden
of this affirmative action stigma so it
was almost like uh uh thank you for
showing that we belong here yes perfect
boom yes that's exactly what the
situation and by the way I look I won
the only one I wasn't being
idiosyncratic
I wasn't the only one there weren't many
black people in that class but
all of us and we laughed about it later
we laughed about it but that was there
so there's there's the stigma issue and
some people have made a lot of this some
people have really made a lot of the
stigma issue my attitude towards a
stigma issue yeah it's there it's you
know again it's it's part of
you know it's part of the situation but
I think that the benefits outweigh the
burdens but is that a burden yeah that's
a burden what are some others
um resentment
yeah resentment in society and that's a
you know so
in these in the fancy schools and by the
way you know remember when we're talking
about affirmative action
most colleges and universities in the
United States there there is no
affirmative action issue because they're
not selective hell they'll take anybody
who you know if you can pay come on in
it's only a fairly small set of schools
that are selective but of course those
are the most elite schools those are the
schools that people most want to get
into and that's one of the reasons why
we have all this you know fighting over
those schools now
um
you know there's a whole how many
millions of people
are there in America
who have applied to various places they
didn't get in
and what do they say the white person
who applied to Harvard applied to Yale
applied to Colombia
you know
apply to Georgetown
apply to NYU you could go you know
didn't get in what do they say
I would have gotten if it hadn't been
for that racial affirmative action
they're resentful well you know should
they be resentful no they shouldn't be
resentful but they are resentful does
that have a consequence yet has a
consequence
and as a consequence on how they act
towards other people it has a
consequence on how they vote it has a
consequence
and you know that's
that's something
um
are there other things
yeah and you know in my book I I have a
you know I go through
various
um
I think that uh I think that there is a
I think that there is a certain sort of
denialism
that has accompanied the affirmative
action
debate so
because
you know black people like myself
want to avoid
the stigmatizing burden of affirmative
action there's some people who to deal
with that
have said oh
actually
there is no difference
between
you know the beneficiaries of
affirmative action
and the other kids
there is no difference
um if if the affirmative action kids got
let's say a 500 and the other kids got a
750. uh that doesn't make any difference
that's just BS they're you know the only
reason the kid who you know the 550 kid
didn't get 750 is because the test asks
all sorts of you know biased culturally
biased things like you know what is a
yacht
mm-hmm
well
sorry uh
uh yes there is a difference
there's a 200 Point difference does the
difference matter yes the difference
matters and by the way if you don't know
what a yacht is you could know what a
yacht is without owning a yacht okay
[Music]
and there's this denialism
that I think has really seeped into
not just the you know in into various
conversations that can have a slippery
slope effect that's beyond just this yes
and you know we see it in various ways
so you know this this you know this
attack on testing
it's not like I'm holding the you know
you know some tests are not good tests I
think we should be skeptical of
everything but there are a lot of tests
that yeah they tell us something all
right they tell us who knows what
and
um there's some people who are really
you know Dead Set against testing
because they're dead set against
anything that might show a gap
well I think by the way you know are
there gaps yeah they're gaps
and what we need to do is be cognizant
of those gaps
and do things to make it so that if
there's a gap if you're if you're
deficient
no no shame in being deficient heck I'm
deficient about a lot of things
let's you know let's learn
so that I catch up
but others you know but I think
sometimes there have been people who've
been afraid
of even acknowledging
the gaps of course there's uh I guess a
colleague of yours Michael sandel with
uh with tyranny and Merit there's uh
interesting rigorous ways to kind of
challenge ways on the flip side of that
were obsessing with Merit can go wrong
also yes uh you mentioned Michael sandel
he's a a a wonderful colleague and he's
a wonderful friend I've known him a long
time I think he makes very important uh
arguments uh about meritocracy
um I disagree with uh some of the points
that he makes about you so you lean
towards the the importance of Mayor
talkers I think that Mary uh yes I think
that I think that there are values in
meritocracy extremely important that in
fact
you know the the the movement from you
know feudalism the movement from status
the the the the the idea of you know I
don't you know I don't care who your you
know father or mother was I don't care
from what part of town you come from I
don't care what your last name is I
don't care what your color of your skin
is
show me what you can do
and then somebody sits down okay I'll
show you what you can do you know what I
can do and they show it you're in
I think there's a lot to that and you
know the the impulse the sentiments
behind that
I'm I I I resonate with that I think
that there's a lot there what I want to
do is
um I want to get rid of those features
in society
that deprive people
of uh the the what you need
to develop yourself
uh you know sometimes those are
psychological
sometimes it's uh you know you're not
around people who've done things that
give you the idea that you can do things
I want to get rid of that
but the idea of
you know people
um the idea by the way of
you know distinguishing you know this is
excellent
and the people who are excellent
you know they're they're here
and then there are people who are
good
are they excellent no they're not
excellent
they're good
uh I I would I want to I'm not gonna you
know close my eyes to that distinction
and uh uh highlight that distinction and
yet at the same time maintain a sense
that uh their basic worth as a human
being is equal yes so
to you know uh
was a run BMC one of the rap groups no
you know we're all written down on the
same list yeah we're all written down on
the same list yes we're you know uh so I
want to recognize our fundamental
Humanity
um I don't think that that I think that
one can recognize our fundamental
humanity and one can also recognize as
far as I'm concerned
that
um we all collectively should make sure
that we we do all that we can to prevent
people from sinking below a certain
level and being you know in misery I'm
you know
all for that
but I want to be careful
about
some of the attacks that I hear on
meritocracy so some of the people
including again I have all the respect
in the world for for for for for for
Michael sandeli you know talks about the
the the arrogance of the winners
okay I want to be you know I I don't
want the winners to be arrogant that's
right luck has a lot to do with things
you know you were you you didn't have
any control over the circumstances in
which you were born into you were lucky
that you were born healthy and that you
were born with a you know well working
mind you didn't have anything to do with
that that was pure luck there's some
people who don't have that luck so don't
you know you know don't be you know Mr
Big Stuff
okay
so I'm you know I'm against that sort of
arrogance you know I'm entitled as if as
if I taught myself how to read no you
didn't teach yourself how to read there
was people who did all sorts of things
for you and you don't even know it
okay so you know I want to you know get
rid of the arrogance
uh have have decent humility I'm all for
that at the same time
you know
um
I want to be careful about
the problem of Envy I want to be prob I
want to be careful about the problem of
resentment
I want to be I want to be careful about
you know I I've heard you know so let's
not have
let's not give a trophy
to the person who wins the race because
to give a trophy to the person who wins
the race will make the person who they
defeated feel bad no no no
um no I don't want that
I want to give a trophy to the person
who wins the race because I think it's a
good thing
to valorize
the best
yeah it's a it's a a kind of celebration
of
um this whole human project that we're
on yes is celebrating the best
you mentioned your father several times
so let me just Linger on that what what
have you learned from
what did you learn about life from your
father
there's I've been just such
a lucky person
I mean I I I feel like I've just lived
an absolutely
Charmed Life
and I live
I mean
the work that I do
is what I love doing
um I would pay to do what I am paid to
do yeah I mean it's it's you know it's
it's great and um
I've been I've been fortunate in so many
ways
and one way in which I've been fortunate
is uh my parents
my parents
um Rachel Spann Kennedy Henry Harold
Kennedy my mother born in Columbia South
Carolina my father
from uh New Orleans Louisiana
they were refugees from the Jim Crow
South
uh they were people who put their all
into their children
I have an older brother of a younger
sister
all three of us know
Beyond you know beyond any controversy
that we were loved and dearly loved by
our parents
and they were great people
my father
um very interesting man very
independent-minded he was perfectly
willing to go his own way
and uh
I learned much from him including I
learned I learned things from him even
when I ultimately disagreed with him so
for instance again to go back to his
pessimism
yeah he was pessimistic thoroughly
pessimistic
um
but
he was also
he was also willing to change in certain
ways in fact both my parents
I mean one of the most important things
that happened to my parents was that
I'd say
when I was
let's say 10 years old
I was born in 1954. so in 1964 in 1964 I
think my parents would have taken the
position that
um you definitely never under any
circumstances trust a white person
if a black person trusts a white person
that person is a fool do not trust white
people all right
they are not to be trusted
and
um
it's the highly highly highly unusual
one
who is not prejudiced okay so white
people are not to be trusted and you
know by and large are going to be your
enemy all right so let's just face that
that's that's was their their point of
view
um
I'd say that
I'd say that 10 years later
that point of view had been leavened
somewhat
um I think and you know you say well
what happened in those 10 years well
certainly in my life
uh one of the things that happened in in
those 10 years is
I
I was a student
in various schools
and I had a series of
teachers I've had wonderful black
teachers
I've also had wonderful white teachers
and my parents paid attention to who my
teachers were and how my teachers
treated me
and I think that they were affected
by the way
in which
there were white people
who
really helped me
and were on my side
and we're thoroughly on my side
and I think that that experience
uh
changed my parents in their General view
they you know skeptical yeah but they
were
um the the the the possibility the
possibility
of a white person
genuinely being the friend
of a black person
that
became alive to them and I give them a
lot of credit because they were they
were adults and you know for an adult
to change that's a big deal but my my
parents did change in that
transformation that was inspiring to you
was formative to you in terms of joining
The Optimist Camp hugely and you know uh
the the school I mean I again I you know
I said a moment ago how lucky I've been
heck
um I teach it I teach at Harvard Law
School
I attended
baleo College Oxford
I got my law degree from Yale Law School
I got my undergraduate degree at
Princeton University
those are some pretty good schools they
all were they all were
the most important School however that I
attended the school that made the most
difference in my education was my high
school
Saint Albans School St Albans school for
boys
and at St Albans
I encountered
a Cadre of teachers
and by the way uh Saint Albans when I
went to Saint Albans
all these features were white
all these teachers so there was one the
the the the the the the the head of
Athletics
very important man very impressive man
Brooks Johnson was black otherwise
white teachers
and these teachers made a huge
difference in my life
and you know I can call their names boom
boom boom boom boom
the greatest of them all
was a man by the name of
um
Jack McCune
yeah
we called him Gentleman Jack Gentleman
Jack McCune
and um what subject did he teach he
taught me
uh history he was my advanced placement
history teacher
but um
John F McCune and we shared a birthday
um John F McCune was a fabulously good
teacher
and we developed a deep
lifetime friendship I was with Mr McCune
the day before he died
and
um
you know
he was a white man
and uh
I've had other teachers who some of whom
have become colleagues of mine uh
you know Sanford Levinson Sanford
Levinson was a teacher of mine at
Princeton
uh he's become a colleague of mine
I mean it would be frankly it would be
impossible for me to
you know I hear I can't make some sort
of
you know sort of blanket
condemnation
of white people
with Sandy Levinson in my life I mean it
would be seriously John F mccunamai with
Eric foner in my life with my colleague
Martha minnow in my life my colleague
Cass sunstein in my life impossible
you know that speaks of the power of
teachers and mentors oh yeah
and you're that to a lot of people well
I I've I've taken that to I hope I hope
listen I would be I would listen I would
be absolutely overjoyed
if there was a student who thought of me
in the way that I think of Gentleman
Jack McCune if there if if that's the
case eat just one just one
if that's the case
I'm Overjoyed that's uh that's a life
well lived
what do you think uh of Martin Luther
King's uh
I have a dream
do you still share that dream
I think that Martin Luther King Jr's I
Have a Dream speech is one of the great
speeches not only in American history
but in the history of the world you know
there's there's a tendency now for
people to sort of poo poo that speech
um I think unfortunately the speech you
know has been embraced by you know you
know advertisers and Corporate America
it's been it's been so you know it's
it's been heard so many times that it's
sort of has been made to suffer from
what some people might view as
overexposure it's so unfortunate I mean
uh it's too bad when uh especially when
Hollywood rolls in they did that with uh
John Lennon's imagine uh recently uh
which I think is one of the greatest
songs ever and the actors and actresses
ruined it by trying to like sing along
and do this kind of cliche Hollywood
thing it has but people have tried to
make it into a cliche the fact of the
matter is it's the the the sentiment the
sentiment behind I have a dream yeah
I'll associate myself with that and
anybody wants to anybody wants to see
some great oratory
go watch
and uh you know Martin Luther King Jr
I mean he he gave he gave
you know several great speeches you know
his first speech the first speech that
he gave
as a civil rights
leader
the Holt Street Baptist Church 1955.
at the beginning of the Montgomery Bus
Boycott which was virtually an
extemporaneous speech was one of his
greatest and he was he was I think 26
years old great
his last speech you know his Mountaintop
speech great speech but I have a dream I
love it
um I will associate myself with those
sentiments any day of the week
absolutely there's still hope for um a
deep kind of uh multi-racial a deep
unity in the 21st I have that hope and I
think that the I think the sentiments
that Martin Luther King Jr expressed in
August 1963
that represents
the best
of American Life
and
um I think it's a you know do I want to
see that come to pass yeah I want to see
that come to pass and we'll we'll work
to
you know push that project as along as
as far as it'll go well thank you for
carrying his Spirit of optimism forward
uh the spirit of your mother and father
uh thank you for all the amazing work
you've done and thank you for just this
conversation is a huge honor this is
awesome thank you thank you thank you
Randall
thanks for listening to this
conversation with Randall Kennedy to
support this podcast please check out
our sponsors in the description and now
let me leave you with some words from
Martin Luther King Jr
Darkness cannot drive out Darkness only
light can do that
hate cannot drive out hate only love can
do that
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time