Kind: captions
Language: en
regardless of whatever was written in
these books that were written thousands
and thousands of years ago the fact of
the matter is no one has a right to go
on slaughtering people removing them
from their homes and then continuing to
live in their homes continuing to drink
coffee on their balconies
um decades and decades later with no
shame with no introspection
with no reflection that's no one has the
right to do that no one has the right to
keep an entire population of people in
arcades
which is what's happening to people in
the West Bank who have no freedom of of
movement which is what's happening
in Gaza which is blockaded
to water air and land and
is deemed uninhabitable by human rights
organizations like the UN no one has a
right to do that
the following is a conversation with
Muhammad alcard a world-renowned
Palestinian poet writer journalist and
an influential voice speaking out and
fighting for the Palestinian cause
he provides a very different perspective
on Israel and Palestine than my previous
two episodes with Benjamin Netanyahu and
Yuval Noah Harari I hope his story and
his words add to your understanding of
this part of the world as it did to mine
I will continue to have difficult
long-form conversations such as these
always with empathy and humility but
with backbone
and please allow me to briefly comment
about criticisms I receive of who I am
as an interviewer and a human being
I am not afraid to travel anywhere or
challenge anyone face to face even if it
puts my life in danger
but I'm also not afraid to be vulnerable
to truly listen to empathize to walk a
mile on the well-worn shoes of those
very different from me
it's this latter task not the formal one
that is truly the most challenging in
conversations and in life
but to me it is the only way
this is the Lex Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Muhammad alcard
tell me about Sheikh jarah the
neighborhood in East Jerusalem where you
grew up
in a way a typical neighborhood despite
the despite the Absurd reality the
surrounds it it's a typical neighborhood
in terms of Palestinian neighborhoods is
one that is threatened with
colonialism with settler expansion and
with forced expulsion and it has been
that way since the early 70s my family
like all of the other families
were expelled from their homes in the
nakabe in 1948 and they were forced out
by the hagana and other Zionist parallel
militaries that later formed the Israeli
military
and they were driven to various cities
and
my grandmother moved from City to city
and she ended up in 1956 Silverado has
established as a refugee housing unit
by the United Nations and by the
Jordanian government which has which had
control over that part of Jerusalem at
the at the time
and then people lived there
harmoniously they were all from
different parts of Palestine
and you know they managed to rebuild
their lives after the first explosion
and then in the 70s you had cellular
organizations
um many of whom were registered here in
New York and in the United States
claiming our houses and our lands as
their own by Divine decree and because
obviously because the judges are Israeli
and the Lords were written by Israeli
settlers and the whole Judiciary was
established uh atop the the rebel of our
homes and villages we had no
you know we had no real pull in the
courts the Israeli courts would look at
the Israeli documents which we argue are
falsifies and fabricated
um and they would take them at face
value without authentication and they
refused to look at our documents they
refused to look at the documents from
the Jordanian government the documents
from the U.N the documents from the
ottoman archives so you already have
this kind of asymmetry in the court that
for any person with common sense would
lead you to believe that this is not in
fact a legal battle
um or a real estate dispute as the
Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs
likes to frame it but rather a very very
political battle one that is about
social engineering one is about
demographics one that is about removing
as many Palestinians as possible
from occupied Jerusalem
so we did what all Palestinian families
in Jerusalem do when they're faced with
this kind of threat and we bought time
we we pleaded and pleaded and appealed
the courts and appealed the cases and we
got
over 50 expulsion orders
in 2009
rifle wielding settlers
accompanied by police and Israeli
military came over
and shoved our neighbors outside of
their home around 5 a.m it's like
it was the most
brutal violent thing I'd seen as a child
at the time and I didn't realize that my
turn was coming my turn was next they
threw they threw them out in the middle
of the night with sound bombs and rubber
bullets and they
had to live in tents on the street
for many many months and even lived in
our front yards for a few months and
lived in their cars can you look on that
process 2009 you said 50 expulsion
orders what uh what was happening
between the 70s and 2009 there had been
many dozens of expulsions orders against
us and against many other families in
the in the neighborhood 28 other family
20 28 families in total actually
um and in 2008 2009 the first wave of
explosions finally happened it actually
began with uh
on camera recorded we're not related but
we live on the same street in the same
neighborhood she was thrown out of her
home her husband an elderly man also
named was pronounced dead on the spot he
had a stroke and died he they the
Israeli soldiers pulled him out of his
home while he was um urinating and threw
him under the streets and he died a few
months later the Ravi and the hanoon
families which are you know kind of not
a clan but you know in Palestine you
have sometimes a building that contains
multiple brothers and their wives
um each have little apartments
about 35 people were thrown out in the
middle of the street right across from
us
and then by the end of 2009 I had come
home from school to find all of my
furniture scattered across the length of
the street and I saw the settlers many
of whom had American accents
living in our house
and their justification for this the
reasoning for this is you know Divine
decree this is this is what God wants
this is the promised land this is so and
so as if God is some kind of real estate
agent
um
so they took over half of our home and
we continue to be in courts for the
following decade this was I was still a
child and I had broken English and I was
talking to all of these diplomats and
all these journalists
who would you know subjugate me
um to their subject me to their you know
racism and biases and and so on and so
forth and he had to prove my Humanity
time and time again and I had to you
know do all of this all with broken
English
um and we were lucky even if we got a if
we got a quote in the in the article
written about us by the times or so on
and so forth
move forward to 2020 I was in New York
City studying a master's degree getting
a master's degree and
my father calls me
and he tells me you know we haven't yet
another expulsion order and we decided
to launch a campaign
it was quite ambitious at the time
but the whole objective of the campaign
was to demystify what is happening right
because it's reported on in the news
it's reported on
around the world as this real estate
dispute as these evictions which was not
really what's happening evictions do not
entail
a foreign army in an occupied territory
forcibly removing you out of your home
uh so I came home from New York and we
launched a campaign which turned into a
global success and I believe it was a
global success because finally the the
images on the screen matched the
rhetoric that was being said it wasn't
so confusing or complicated anymore
all of this asymmetry was pronounced and
articulated in a way that any of you or
be it in Alabama be in New York be it in
Egypt was able to understand the
asymmetry of the digi of the judicial
system and you know the agenda of
colonialism that was taking place here
and due to immense International and
diplomatic processor
um from all over the world even the
United States
the Israeli Supreme Court was forced to
cancel all of the eviction orders
until further notice this I consider was
a small victory because obviously we are
still at risk of losing our homes once
they decide to do the land registry
which we can get into a little bit later
if you'd like
um
but nonetheless it was something that we
haven't seen
before and the fact
that the Supreme Court canceled all of
these dozens and dozens of past eviction
orders it's set a precedent and it also
proved that this was a political battle
not a legal one so let's just add a
little more detail to the people who are
not familiar with the story with the
region
with the evictions with the courts so
first of all shakes your eyes in East
Jerusalem maybe you can say what is
Jerusalem where is it located
what are we talking about in terms of
regionally and second what kind of
people that live there so if you could
talk about the Palestinian people
and
um we should also make clear that these
evictions is literally people living in
homes and their homes are taken away
from them
I suppose technically it's legal
uh evictions but you're saying that
there's a asymmetry of power in the
courts where the legal is uh not so much
legal but is politically and maybe even
religiously based
yeah I mean the biggest the most
important context here is that
oftentimes Americans think that Israel
and Palestine are some kind of two
neighbor two neighboring countries
um
that live next to each other and they
are at War but the fact of the matter is
Palestinian cities exist
all over the country and it's just one
country it's just one infrastructure and
Israel is literally on top of Palestine
it was established on top of our
Villages
um in the late 40s uh now according to
international law the eastern part of
Jerusalem is under occupation so Israeli
presence
ends with Dixon
over the area is completely illegitimate
they say the evictions are legal because
the settlers
write their laws so obviously they're
going to allow settlements to expand but
according to international law according
to even U.S policy
um
Israel occupies the eastern part of
Jerusalem it's jurisdiction there is
illegitimate we shouldn't even be going
to their courts in the first place but
we have no other option
um we're talking we're talking about how
we're talking about Jerusalem we're
talking about generations and
generations and generations of people
who have lived there
for the longest time who now even though
you know for example me I don't have a
citizenship I'm a resident a mere
resident I have a blue ID card even
though my grandmother and my grandfather
were born in Jerusalem their
grandparents were born in Jerusalem
um
even though we've lived there for
Generations but Palestinians in
Jerusalem we are not Citizens We're just
mere residents same thing with residents
of the occupied Syrian Golan they are
not citizens they are just residents in
their own hometowns this is an important
uh piece but all of this gets convoluted
and Lost in Translation and I think
I I would argue it's a lot more it's
a lot of the time it's dubious it's it's
malicious the fact that these little
pieces of context that frame the entire
story get lost
you know I'll talk to you about
something else
um just 10 minutes 10 minutes across
from my neighborhood there's another
another neighborhood called silhouette
and the people in Silvan are also
threatened with expulsion but not
through evictions but through home
demolitions and if you look at American
state American Media or Israeli State
media you would read the headlines you
know Palestinians living in homes built
illegally are gonna face you know their
homes as they're going to be torn apart
what these headlines don't tell you and
even sometimes most of the time the
substance doesn't tell you that
Palestinians seldom ever get
building permit applications
um in fact recently a spokesperson for
the Israeli military confirmed that was
95 of building permits applications
submitted by Palestinians and is
Jerusalem and the West Bank are rejected
by the Israeli authorities and to make
this even more absurd the guy
the councilman who is responsible
um for rejecting and accepting building
permit applications his name is Jonathan
Youssef and he's a he's a an activist in
the settler movements and he's a
Jerusalem council member
and he last week following the expulsion
of uh
a sublaban family in the old city of
Jerusalem he posted to his official
Facebook his Facebook account naked by
now
um demanding a second promising another
nakaba he has done so on many occasions
he has chanted with a megaphone just a
few months ago walking down the street
in my neighborhood chanting we want Nick
by now this is a man who has vandalized
their murals who has screamed
islamophobic slurs this is literally a
man in the government making these
decisions right uh and this is similar
to you know masafriotto in the South
Hebron Hills for those who don't know
it's uh it's it's a place in the
occupied West Bank where Bedouin and
cave dweller Palestinians have lived for
Generations they have cultivated the
land
um and recently they were expelled from
their homes over a thousand people were
expelled from their remote small
villages again if you're reading
American Media they would say it would
say Palestinians living in firing zones
were removed because they're living in a
military zone what these media reports
will not tell you that in the 80s the
Israeli government
purposefully classified many lands in
the occupied West Bank
as firing zones as off limit military
zones for the sole purpose of expelling
the residents and this is not some kind
of conspiracy theory this is
Declassified information that was
released from the Israeli State archive
that was later reported on by her audits
also these reports will not tell you
that the judge
who rules on whether these people
continue to live under homes or not is
himself a settler in the West Bank I'm
not even talking about
you know I'll lose the definition of a
settler but according to international
law this is a settler living illegally
in an illegal settlement in the occupied
West Bank this is the Judiciary
um that we deal with which is hilarious
considering how it's being reported on
um in American Media recently as some
kind of Beacon of progress and democracy
that the new government is trying to
undermine so there's no representation
in the courts for the Palestinian people
I mean we have lawyers but no there is
no there's no in fact there is for
Palestinians with Israeli citizenships
for example there's over 60 laws that
specifically and explicitly
discriminates against them
so again it's technically legal the
evictions and the demolitions yeah so
was Jim Crow was legal also you know
when something is legal it can also
still be
wrong absolutely history has shown us
time and time again
um that legality does not necessarily
mean morality and the law you know is uh
the law is a bloodbath in many ways
um it has been used
and abused to facilitate the most
horrendous atrocities in in the case of
the Palestinians the law has served to
facilitate and bureaucratize our ethnic
cleansing
do you think there's people
judges and just people in power in the
Judiciary that have hate for the
Palestinian people
I mean I'm not really the the easy
simplistic answer is yes but I don't
really care about the contents of their
hearts what I care about the policy they
enact right the laws they write and
enact are hateful demolishing a person's
home
um so you can have somebody from Long
Island New York
who is fleeing you know fraud charges
this is the case in my house live in in
their in their you know front yard
that's hateful so I don't need you know
confirmation this is something we see a
lot actually you know
um Palestinians and people who are
pro-palestine and just people who want
to make a difference in how this cause
is represented
we often Run for the first
um
opportunity to cite an Israeli being
hateful you know the recent the last uh
Israeli Prime Minister said that he has
killed many Arabs and that he has no
qualms with it
um Netanyahu has said a slew of racist
hateful things
um josinski the pioneer of Zionism herzl
one of the pioneers of Zionism all have
said horrible hateful
things we also like cannot wait to you
know
cite uh a confession from a former
Israeli soldier who is guilty
Consciousness is keeping them you know
up at night and we use all of these you
know
confessions or slip UPS as evidence to
prove that this is a racist country that
is an acting race racist acts but we
don't need this because the material
proof is on the ground you see it in the
policies that are enacted you see it
um
in how the country how this regime has
behaved for the past 75 years I don't
need you know
confessions from the likes of Netanyahu
to understand that his heart is full of
hate
so if you could return to 1948 and
describe something that you've mentioned
the nakba which means catastrophe in
Arabic
what was this event what was this
displacement and dispossession of
Palestinians in 1948
well you know like May 15 1948
um
is commemorated every year as you know
the anniversary of the knuckleberry but
I would even argue and I think this is
like an
a very popular
idea is that the network did not begin
or end in 1948 the 48 was rather you
know a crystallization
of the Zionist Enterprise in Palestine
um and what what happened was that
many zionists
paramilitaries that again today merged
and made the Israeli Army which calls
itself the Israeli Defense Forces even
though they're literally always
aggressor
um
committed atrocities and massacres and
you know they
destroyed over 500 Villages they killed
over 15 000 people they forced
a very large portion a majority of the
Palestinian population
uh to flee their homes and this was you
know
the near total Destruction of
Palestinian society that continues on to
this day we refer to it as the ongoing
nakba and you see it in in you see it in
silangi state and Hebron and all of
these people losing their homes and
in many cases time and time again you
know I grew up and my grandmother told
me the stories about the nakabe she told
me stories about her neighbors who
were
running away in a panic and they had
mistaken a pillow for their offspring
and they just took it with them and they
realized later that they forgot their
child and they came back for many many
people who were separated from their my
grandmother herself she lost her husband
for a few months for nine months he was
imprisoned by the Israelis
um
you know she told me all of these
stories and she wasn't just reminiscing
about them she was
you know
letting me know that this is still
happening and then and I didn't need to
grow up that old to see it happening in
my own front yard to see that expulsion
happened in the same fashion she's she's
talked about it but
you know now they have replaced their
artillery with the Judiciary
they have replaced you know the the the
slashing of the pregnant women's bellies
in the Daria scene Massacre with with
laws that say you know you're not you're
not legally allowed to be here we're
going to kick you out of your home and
it's happening and it has happened in in
broad daylight
um one piece of context for The Listener
who doesn't who is not familiar with the
knuckleberry
is developer declaration
which was a promise quote unquote
promise made by the British
to the Zionist movement in 1917
committing to The Establishment I'm
quoting I think word for word committing
to the establishment of a Jewish state
in Palestine
um as if Palestine was you know the
British to give away
um
and there was this whole movement that
called for colonization of Palestine and
there were different there were
different schools of thought in Zionism
you know people like zanguo said that
this was a country without a people
um and Palestinians who have existed
there who have cultivated the lands who
have you know
had diverse cultural and religious and
political uh practices they were
completely erased and other people like
zobozinski
um
were a lot more explicit and a lot more
honest and said that we need to fight
the Palestinians because they love their
land much like the red Indians love
their lands and he had a paper called
The Iron Wall colonization of Palestine
must go forward
um
and all of these all of these schools of
thoughts were then shopping around for
you know Imperial support
for their cause
they tried they tried to get support
from the Ottoman Empire they tried to
get support from Germany and this is in
the 1800s and then they got support from
the United Kingdom a great book to
recommend is the 100 year the Hundred
Years War on Palestine
um that's the you know traces the
Zionist movement oftentimes in
designists own words
um and so today what we're seeing is a
continuation and you know people like
zabotinski who are like profoundly and
explicitly racist who have called for
genocide who have uh called the
Palestinians barbaric who have
said and done
racist things you know Japanese also was
like the founder of the ergon one of the
other militias that later merged to
become the I the Israeli Army uh which
was responsible for that area scene
Massacre which was responsible for the
bombing of the King David Hotel
um this is a person who's still
celebrated in Israeli Society there are
still streets named after him and
Netanyahu just two weeks ago if I'm not
mistaken honored him in a public
celebration
um so this is Zionism it's not even
through my own
words what he said to people
that describe Israel as having a
historical right to the land
so if you stretch out across decades but
across centuries into the past
this kind of thing is a red herring um
it's a destruction because you don't
think of any state
as having rights but there is this
exceptionalism to the Israeli regime
where it is it has a right to defend
itself and it has a right to the land
and it has a right to shoot 14 year old
boys because
it thought they had a knife in their
pockets
you know a lot of the time people cite
the Torah on site religious books and
you know sometimes zionists will even
say like read the Quran and blah blah
blah you know regardless of whatever was
written in these books that were written
thousands and thousands of years ago the
fact of the matter is no one has a right
to go on slaughtering people removing
them from their homes and then
continuing to live in their homes
continuing to drink coffee on their
balconies
um decades and decades later with no
shame with no introspection
with no reflection that's no one has the
right to do that no one has the right to
keep an entire population of people in a
cage
which is what's happening to people in
the West Bank who have no freedom of of
movement which is what's happening
in Gaza which is blockaded
to water air and land and
is deemed uninhabitable by human rights
organizations like the UN no one has a
right to do that
do you have Hate in Your Heart for
Israel why does that matter
as one human being to another you're
describing quite brilliantly that the
contents
of people's hearts don't matter as much
as the policies and the context of the
courts and the laws and what actually is
going on on the streets in terms of
actions but
this is also a human story
yeah and
uh
I feel like
at the core
of the situation here is
um
hate
is or maybe inability for some group of
humans to see the humanity in another
group of humans and so it's important
here to talk about the contents of
Hearts if we were to think about the
long-term future of this yeah I mean I
would be concerned actually if I didn't
feel some kind of way in my heart I
would be concerned for my own dignity
because the people who Revolt the people
who are angry the people who refuse to
live under occupation know that they
deserve better
people start revolutions not because
some kind of cultural phenomenon not
because of some kind of Desire but
because they cannot breathe because they
cannot
they cannot breathe they cannot live
they are living under excruciating
circumstances
you know Palestinians you know I don't
know I don't know how many Palestinians
have interacted with but we are some of
the most wonderful people I mean not all
of us I think some of us are you know
insufferable but most of us
you know
most of us you know we're very
hospitable
um
we're very hospitable even like in the
early early correspondence between the
mayor of Jerusalem and herzl who wrote
the Jewish State you know the generosity
through which uh the Palestinian mayor
was talking to herzl who was plotting to
take over his land
is impressive and at the same time you
know heart-wrenching um
but I I personally
think there is
there's a lot of dignity
um in negating your oppressor and I
think it would be ridiculous today today
if we like look back at junko for
example and we asked the person who's
lived under under Jim Crow
um if they have hate in their heart for
Jim Crow as if that's not the absolutely
logical and natural sentiment to feel in
rivka you wrote my father told me anger
is a luxury we cannot afford be composed
calm still laugh when they ask you smile
when they talk answer them educate them
so let me Linger on this is their anger
in there in your heart and does it Cloud
your judgment
does it Cloud management
I don't think so I think with I think
our campaign to defend our homes was
particularly successful because
it was honest to what was happening on
the ground because it refused to follow
the strategy that we have used in our
advocacy before
where we shrink ourselves and we turn
the other tree can we try to convince
American lawmakers and American
diplomats and journalists of our
Humanity
um because we wait for the approval you
know I was 14 years old when I first
flew to Congress to speak to Congress
people
and to speak to other European
Parliament and I at the time I thought
wow I must be such a brilliant
14 year old
um for them to have me here and you know
looking back I didn't know what I was
talking about I had
horrendously broken English
um and he didn't have any any talking
points and he came to realize that the
reason why we send our kids with their
power points to the hill
is because of the racism and the hatred
that lingers inside the hearts of
American politicians who refused to sit
on the table
um with Palestinian adults as equals
um and so we resort to sending our kids
who will not threaten
um and who will not you know trigger the
biases they have against Muslims and
Arab people which Palestinians even
though we're not all Muslim are
racialized as Muslim
um
and this is why we emphasize uh the
deaths of women and children as though
the deaths of our men does not counter
does not matter all of these things I
think the new generation of Palestinians
is rebelling against
um I think words like you know I think
it's loaded it's loaded language uh
anger and angry and hate and so on and
so forth because it Miss
mischaracterizes people and it kind of
delegitimizes them a little bit
um you know I think the real the real
anger is the bulldozer
um bulldozing through my house I think
the real anger is the 18 year old
soldier who refuses to see me as a human
being and strip searches me every chance
they get that's where the real anger
lies
um
and I'm quite honestly proud of
you know our unabashedness
um
and a refusal to like bow our heads or
bury our heads in the sand
I think that's the only way forward
so I anger whatever it is is a
fuel for Action absolutely and it has
been throughout throughout history
it has been
how much of this tension is religious
in the Practical aspects of the courts
and the the evictions and the
demolitions
and you mentioned something Divine
decree
how much underneath it do you feel
the division over religious texts and
religious beliefs
you know it's convenient to Market
what's happening in Palestine as a
religious conflict because it allows
um
The Listener the luxury of believing
that this is an ancient complicated
thing that stretches thousands and
thousands of years ago but the fact of
the matter is
the people who invented Zionism who
pioneered the Zionist movement who
called for immigration
and settling into Palestine a lot of
them were atheists a lot of them
were not religious at all
um
and the leaders of the Israeli state
today a lot of them are atheists
and a lot of them are secular and so on
and so forth it's easy to it's easy to
say that this is
you know about Muslims and and Jews
fighting over the land and so on and so
forth but it's not it's about the land
itself and it's about
people being forced out of their homes
Benjamin Netanyahu said anti-zionism is
anti-Semitism of course he said that
do you disagree absolutely I disagree
what's the gap between
um anti-zionism and anti-Semitism those
who are against the policies of
uh Israel versus those who are against
the Jewish people
like what's the well the first like 20
minutes and then I couldn't do it
anymore you know but I watched and then
what was interesting about Netanyahu is
that he said you know being
anti-zionist is like saying I'm okay
with the Jews I just don't believe the
Jews have a right to form their own
State that's like
saying I'm okay with Americans I'm just
not okay with Americans having their own
State and there's so much wrong with
that statement in the sense that
Jewish people are a religious group in
Americans and America being an American
as a nationality that consists of
A diversity
um
of religions and
and so on and so forth first of all on
the second the second thing that's wrong
with that statement is the whole idea
that states somehow have a right to
exist or or whatever it's it's such a
destruction you have you have people
getting shot in the street you have like
millions and millions of people besides
do you have people losing their homes
you have people who are held in Israeli
prisons without trial
um or charts indefinitely but the
conversations that are being held in the
head on the hill the conversations that
are being held on CNN
or does Israel has a right to exist or
like why would you negate Israel's
having a right to exist that's one now
of course I'm sorry and I just I just
find it's it's ridiculous again like
that uh opposing a secular political
movement that was explicitly colonialist
expansionist exclusive and racist
through the words of its own authors is
somehow and also again opposing such a
political movement that is
quite young and quite recent is somehow
equivalent equivalent to opposing uh a
religion that is thousands and thousands
of years old but it is convenient
again for Israeli politicians
to frame us who oppose Zionism
a form of racism and bigotry as
anti-semites but I can guarantee you
Benjamin Netanyahu has no problem with
anti-Semitism this is the same man who
has no problem getting on stage and
shaking hands with Pastor John Hagee
doing uh web webinars with Pastor John
Hagee for those who don't know Pastor
John Hagee is the founder of Christians
United for Israel who has said on
multiple occasions that Hitler was a
hunter who was sent to hunt the Jews who
said on multiple occasions that Jewish
people are gonna perish in hell you can
all of this is like verifiable by Google
and this is one of the Israeli regime's
closest allies right
um
so the Israeli regime does not have a
problem with anti-semites when it serves
its interests it has a problem
I mean like if you look at Evangelical
Evangelical evangelicals or like
Christian Zionism at Lords
semitism lies at the heart
of Christian Zionism it's the idea that
we want to derive all of the Jews
outside of the United States so that
Armageddon could happen or whatever the
fuck this accusation has been a muzzle
it has been used as a muzzle to silence
political opposition
um and this stifle political advocacy
for the liberation of Palestine and a
lot of the time people get caught up in
denouncing it and in
justifying themselves and disclaimers
and so on and so forth that you lose the
point that you're distracted from the
focal point that is there is an ongoing
colonialism happening where people every
single day are killed I cannot keep
count this morning
a kid was shot
in Palestine
we cannot it's embarrassing even for me
that I don't even know the numbers here
but this muzzle has been effective and I
think the only
righteous uh
option itself is to oppose
um these labels these smear campaigns
that Target us
um I myself have been labeled an
anti-semite
by the ADL and I mean like if you want
to talk about
the surface level people people say like
wow the ADL Anti-Defamation League you
know uh condemned you but people do not
look at the history of the
Anti-Defamation League do not look at
the present of the Anti-Defamation
League the fact that they are
um
the largest non-governmental police
training uh Department in the country
where they train police and
uh racial profiling and militarism the
fact that they have historically and
continued to have engaged in
surveillance on
on Black
Liberation movements on anti-apartheid
South African activists most recently in
Charlottesville when white supremacists
were marching
um and chanting anti-semitic shit the
ADL advised local police departments to
spy on the black organizers opposing
the white supremacists this is again all
verifiable on the internet go to
droptheadl.org so if the ADL does not
uh alleviate the uh the hate in the
world
as it probably is designed to do no it's
it's the guys I don't think the
apartheid Defense League is really our
most Progressive but that's what it
stands for yeah okay season no now you
know
uh
if we can just Linger on this idea of
anti-semitism
there's quite a bit of anti-muslim
sentiment in the United States
especially after 9 11. I've spoken to
people about that
there's also
uh anti-jewish anti-Semitism sentiment
in the United States but also throughout
human history
what do you make about
this kind of
um fact of human nature that people seem
to hate Jews throughout history
especially in the 20th century
especially with Nazi Germany
what are your in general thoughts about
the hatred of the Jewish people I mean I
think it's obviously wrong I don't know
it's it's this it's this idea that I
even have to clarify what I think about
anti-Semitism that doesn't say right
well with me I think it's completely
unfortunate and wrong that
um Jewish people have been prosecuted
across history so one of the criticisms
I think I've read the ADL making this
criticism of you is uh maybe you've
tweeted a comparison between uh Israel
and Hitler
and thereby diminishing the evil that is
Hitler
uh what would you say to that Mr Sarah
talks about this a lot
um the exceptionalization of Hitler
um Hitler is a deplorable
I don't know condemnable you know rotten
racist horrible human being that belongs
in the depths of Hell obviously that's
that goes without without saying but
I am allowed
um analogy
and I'm allowed
to say whatever I want
now I don't necessarily think that that
such an analogy is a good strategy to
have
but at the time the context came in
um
2021 when
Israeli soldiers and policemen and
settlers were literally burning down our
neighborhood Again verifiable by Google
um
and I tweeted it and I also I remember I
tweeted something I hope every single
one of them dies and to this day like
this is some kind of uh you know gotcha
for me as if I should have tweeted like
oh here's the apple pie for every single
soldier that's throwing tear gas in my
house
you know there is
there is
such an exceptionalism when it comes to
Palestinians we're not allowed analogy
we're not allowed expression we're not
allowed armed resistance we're not
allowed peaceful resistance we're not
allowed to boycott because that's
anti-semitic we're not allowed to do
anything
so what are we allowed if I if I can't
boycott and that's against American law
and auto boycott and if I can't pick up
a rifle because that's against the law
and if I can't even tweet
my frustration out what am I allowed to
do
you know maybe Netanyahu can send me a
manual he's happy with you know
so you've spoken about the taking of
homes
the IDF uh killing civilians killing
children
uh what about the violence going the
other direction Israelis being killed
um in part by terrorist action
well it depends on depends on how you
Define terrorism right across history
one man's Freedom Fighter is another
man's terrorist
uh
I don't necessarily subscribe to the
definition of terrorism if uh if a
foreign army is in my neighborhood which
it's not supposed to be and and they're
shooting life ammunition at my house
I'm allowed to do what I'm allowed to do
and again this is another yet another
case of Palestinian exceptionalism
because when it comes to Ukraine
people have no problem
seeing ukrainians defending their homes
seeing ukrainians uh dying further man
seeing ukrainians making makeshift
molotovs on Sky News you know Sky News
was running most of making cocktails the
New York Times read an article
interviewing a Ukrainian psychologist
who said that hatred I'm paraphrasing
but he said hatred for all
um
Russians is actually a healthy Outlet
the New York Post ran a headline
um Champion championing uh quote unquote
heroic Ukrainian suicide bomber
these things we would not even dream of
uh
as as Palestinians
we are we are told to turn the other
cheek time and time again we're told
that we we should continue living these
in inside these enclaves
um without access to clean water without
access to to the right to movement
without access to building permits
without our natural right to expansion
without you know without a guarantee
that if we leave our house we're not
going to be sought and we're supposed to
not do anything about it that is absurd
any any person watching this understands
this completely people understand you
know people understand that if somebody
is attacking your home you'll fight back
if somebody is attacking your family you
fight back that is that is not but again
who gets to call who a terrorist who
gets to Define terrorism this is all
about who has power
who gets to write these laws who gets to
write these definitions
you know why is it um
why is it that American accents and Iraq
is not called terrorism by American
politicians wise you know violence is
like this
mutating mutating Concepts you know and
it takes on many shapes and forms and if
it's in in a uniform
it's if it speaks in English if it has
blonde hair it's somehow acceptable it's
okay we make
movies about it
you know we sell out
tickets
about it we make games about it but if
it's without a uniform it's if it has a
thick accent if it has a beard you know
that's that's condemnable that's wrong
that's terrorism you know do you think
violence is an effective method of
protest and resistance in general in
general I think it has been but I think
you know I believe in fighting on all
fronts I don't think violence alone is
gonna bring about change
I think uh
there's so much to do uh in culture and
shifting public opinion there's so much
to do in media and fighting back against
media eraser and census and censorship
there's so much to do diplomatically and
politically
um
um and I I think I would be naive if
I don't take the power imbalance into
consideration
um one side has makeshift weapons and
the other side is one of the most
sophisticated armies in the world
so I don't know I don't know how
effective violence could be in this case
but if you look at the flip side do you
see the power of non-violent resistance
so Martin Luther King Gandhi the power
of attorney the other cheek he spoke
negatively about turning the other cheek
so I sense that uh doing so has not been
effective for the Palestinian people
we've turned the other cheek uh
generation after generation there is
this Zionist Trope that that is used
against us they say Palestinian
rejectionism they say that we reject
everything but if you look at the
history like our leadership the
Palestinian Authority has given up ins
after ends has compromised on acre after
acre has signed deal after deal after
deal after deal and still there is no
peace
so turning the other cheek is not you
know the most effective method in my
book what are the top obstacles to
Peaceful coexistence of Israelis and
Palestinians
the the occupation comes to mind the
strictical policies come to mind
the seeds comes to mind the asymmetry of
the Judiciary comes to mind
the whole the whole system needs to be
dismantled I will quote my dear friend
who's uh who's a lawyer who says you
know the solution Justice comes about
through
recognition return
and redistribution
there are millions of Palestinian
refugees who are living in excruciating
circumstances and refugee camps around
the world there are thousands of
Palestinian prisoners
um
who are held in prisons for defending
their homes hundreds of which are held
without charge or trial by the way there
are many Palestinians who get killed in
broad daylight with no recourse
journalists and Medics and everyday
people not just the fire the Freedom
Fighters
um we need again recognition return and
redistribution and peace comes about
when when
when they stop killing us when they stop
keeping us in a cage I mean that's
that's quite simple can you describe
recognition redistribution return and
redistribution return return right of
return right the right of return to all
of the Palestinian refugees to their
homes you know when I'm driving around
haifan I see my grandmother is uh home
that's now turned into a restaurant you
know I could have you know I I made a
joke in one of my essays recently that
had I had that I could have had it all
you know beats front views
her smug attitude you know she grew up
by the she grew up by the Sea after she
relocated the High phones after you know
Jerusalem
um we want that we want that and um you
know they're lucky I don't want
netanyahu's home but I just want my home
I just want my home we want to return I
also wouldn't there needs you know and
like
I believe in the 1960s the Israeli
government classified 90 of all of
historic Palestine as state-owned land
this is
all land that was owned by Palestinian
farmers who have cultivated their lands
for decades you know since the
establishment of the Israeli State there
has been
uh Jewish only towns popping up every
few years and not one town not one
Palestinian town has emerged we are even
those of us who have Israeli Israeli
citizenship who live outside of the wall
are encircled and cannot have their
natural Community growth in their towns
that needs to change that needs to
change you mentioned the wall can you
describe the wall the wall is a nine
meter high cement wall
uh that was finished in 2003 and if
you're American you've probably heard
the whitewash sanitized version of the
name which is the security wall but it's
uh it's the wall that literally has
stolen
thousands of Dunhams of land and has
ripped apart Families my mother is a
poet or was a poet at some point and she
had this poems she she published in the
paper
Called Love behind the wall and it
describes you know it's it's a poem but
it describes a real life situation
of uh two families that who lived right
across the street from each other but
were then separated by the wall and they
would fly balloons
um you know to see each other from each
side of the wall or something like that
this
although it sounds absurd but it's the
reality for many Palestinian families
whose lives were torn apart to his
livelihoods also were torn apart uh by
the wall maybe this is a good
opportunity to talk about the the legal
classifications for Palestinians
you know um Israel much like any other
Colonial entity was has Divine has
divided
and fragmented the Palestinian people
um as I said earlier I have a blue ID
which means I'm a resident a friend of
mine who lives in heifa for example two
hours away from me 150 kilometers not
nothing too bad in this country
has and Israeli citizenship he can you
know travel he can enter the West Bank
he can
um
do a lot more he's a citizen he can vote
if he wants to not that we want to
um you know I always tease my friends or
you can go to Italy without without a
Visa because you have an Israeli
citizenship but you know they battle
National and race or they battle
um crime in their own communities
because of police negligence they they
battle land conference land confiscation
and have battled confiscations in the
50s whereas somebody with a green ID
somebody from the West Bank
cannot leave the West Bank
cannot go anywhere without a special
permit and lives Behind These Walls and
even within the West Bank
the West Bank I think hilariously George
Bush described it as Swiss cheese
because
of the holes every every few every 100
meters there's a new settlement or
there's a new military checkpoint so
even if you live behind the wall in the
West Bank with your green ID even though
you're raw you're robbed of your right
to movement you still even can't move
from town to town within the West Bank
without encountering subtler violence or
military violence while you're crossing
the checkpoints and so on and so forth
and then the last category we have is
people who live in Russia we were
talking about over 2 million people who
live in an open air prison
um
who have no right to movement but also
have no access to clean water water and
no access to
supplies no access to good food no
access to Good Health Care and so on and
so forth who routinely get bombarded
every few years
um
is like two hours away from my house it
feels like an absolute far away planet
because it's so isolated from the rest
of the country so imagine all of these
different legal statuses fragmenting
um your everyday identity and creating
different challenges and obstacles for
you to deal with for each group to deal
with
you know it's amazing and impressive
that despite these Colonial barriers the
the real cement ones
and the you know the barriers in the
mind despite all of these barriers the
Palestinian people have made have
maintained their national identity for
70 years that is incredibly impressive
and it also sends a message that as long
as we have a boot on our neck we are
going to continue fighting you know
violence cracking down on refugee camps
bombarding refugee camps is only going
to bring about more violence so West
Bank is a large region where a lot of
Palestinian people live and then there
are settlements sprinkled throughout and
those settlements have walls around them
for security cameras and security guards
security guards almost a million sellers
in the West Bank and so what are the
different cities here if you can mention
so the West Bank in the West Bank or
mileage and in Bethlehem Hebron Jericho
Annapolis
they have their own stories they have
their own histories yeah and it's
fascinating also how interconnected they
are you know like a friend of mine Mona
Omari recently did a a documentary
report on the day that Haifa fell during
the Zionist Invasion the hagana
um
led the Palestinian residents of Haifa
down to the city center
and as absurd as it sounds
those of them who stood on the right
side of the street were forced into cars
that took them to multiple stops that
would later become multiple refugee
camps the last of which was Janine
refugee camp and
um those who stood on the left side of
the street were forced to board uh boats
that took them to Lebanon to become
refugee camps refugees there
last month we saw the Israeli Army
invade Janine in maybe the largest
military invasion of Janine since 2002
um
and they killed many people they
attacked Medics and journalists in broad
daylight on camera they have
destroyed infrastructure and it was all
very painful but I think the most
compelling aspect
of the real on Janine was what followed
Israeli soldiers at night held their
megaphones and uh
instructed hundreds of Palestinians to
flee their homes and they told them if
you don't leave if you don't have your
hand up in the air you will get shot and
they were forced to leave their homes in
the camp and walk so God knows where
I can guarantee you because the nakaba
is not that old I can guarantee you that
some people who were marching
away from their camps were chased away
from their homes in the camp engineering
were some of the same people who were
chased away from the homes in Haifa in
the first place this Perpetual exile
that Palestinian people
continue to live is is unbearable I mean
in my case my grandmother was removed
from her home in Haifa in 48 and then
she moved from Sydney City and then in
2009 she saw half of her home taken over
by Israeli soldiers my grandmother died
in 2020 and two months later we got the
next
expulsion order from the Israeli Court
I'm quite ashamed to admit that I was
relieved my grandmother had died because
I did not want her 102 years old at the
time to go through yet another nakabe
and this is the fact for so many
Palestinians regardless of where they
are on the map
if I may read the description of the
situation in Janine and maybe you can
comment so this is on July 3rd 4th and
5th just reading Washington Post
description so this was an Israeli
military incursion to Janine The Raid
included more than 1 000 soldiers backed
by drone strikes making it Israel's
largest such operation in the West Bank
since the end of the second Palestinian
Uprising in 2005
the Israeli military said it dismantled
hundreds of explosive cleared hundreds
of weapons destroyed underground
hideouts and confiscated hundreds of
thousands of dollars in quote Terror
funds many of the 50 Palestinians who
have attacked Israelis since the start
of the year have come from Janine camp
and the surrounding area Palestinian
attacks inside Israel have killed 24
people this year U.N experts descri