Kind: captions
Language: en
we have been encouraged culturally to
criticize people we're in long-term
relationships with not new relationships
new relationships you put the person on
a pedestal you're allowed to just oh
they're wonderful but every Trope out
there and every form of popular media is
like the wife rolling her eyes at the
husband and the husband being like Oh
there's loads some Harpy that castrated
me as if like people are just passive
players in their lives and I I think
that is an incredibly toxic message to
send to people that this is how we
should be relating to our partner like
we should not you don't take the piss
out of your partner in front of people
like the successful relationships I've
seen are where people are just cheering
for their partner where they are
thickest thieves where there is just
this feeling of like man they like each
other like they are they got each
other's back like you wouldn't believe
like man you could take sides against
anybody but take sides against their
partner you're going down like and that
when you see a couple that has that
you just you know they it's that's so
hard to break but but I think that comes
from
having like a
steadfast yeah no I don't do that like I
don't shit talk my partner yeah like and
you don't shit talk my partner to me you
know like and that to me is when because
I think we're just so criticized by the
world the world is so full of criticism
we criticize ourselves so harshly that
having a partner who no matter what is
like you've got this I'm With You Like
You Fuck okay yeah you screwed up I see
it look I'm not gonna lie to you about
your blind spots you screwed up but you
know what people screw up sometimes you
gotta write to screw up a lot of people
screw up come on get up let's go I know
you have it in you if you have that
person like that I I feel like that's a
that's a superpower
following is a conversation with James
Sexton divorce attorney and author of
how to stay in love a divorce lawyer's
guide to staying together as a trial
lawyer James for over two decades has
negotiated and litigated a huge number
of high conflict divorces this has given
him a deep understanding of how
relationships fail and how they can
succeed and bigger than that the role of
love and pain and this whole messy
roller coaster ride we call life
this is the Lex Friedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's James Sexton
what is the most common reason that
marriages fail that's a great question
but it's a question that everybody wants
there to be a simple answer like they
want me to say cheating or money or you
know the internet but but the reality is
I think it's a lot of little things it's
this disconnection that would be my
answer the reason marriages fail is
disconnection what causes disconnection
that's the bigger and I think more
important question because like Tom Wolf
said about bankruptcy it happens very
slowly and then all at once
disconnection happens very slowly and
then all at once so most of the time
what I think people want is an answer
like
cheating but cheating is the big all at
once thing how did we get to the place
where cheating was even something you
were thinking about doing or that you
would think about and then cross the
line from thought into action and that's
I think the the big question so
disconnection would be my answer do you
think it's possible to introspect like
looking backwards for every individual
case where the disconnection began and
how it evolved sure yeah this is such a
multivariate equation
it's it's a it's a dance it's a
chemistry it's a it's what did you do
and what did the other person do and see
that the interesting thing about being a
divorce lawyer is
I'm weaponizing Intimacy in a courtroom
so I'm I'm telling it's full contact
storytelling what I do for a living so
what I do is I take my client's story
and I have to present it to a judge and
make my client the hero in every way and
the other side the villain in every way
now I have to be careful not to do that
in a manner that that loses credibility
because even a judge would know even a
judge is smart enough to know that no
one's all good or all bad
but
only if you were reverse engineering a
relationship and saying how did this
break you really have to look at both
people the good and the bad you know
what what each of them did that moved
the dial in these different directions
and I think that that's
um that's very hard for anyone going
through a divorce to do about their own
relationship you know we don't know who
discovered water but it wasn't a fish
like if you're in it I don't think you
see it clearly I think as a divorce
lawyer
whose job is to really drill down on the
facts and figure out what's going on in
this story
I have to look at both sides so I have
to think a lot about my own arguments
but I also have to think about what's
the other lawyer's argument going to be
especially in custody cases so I really
have been forced to look at both sides
for so
many years so deeply in relationships
that once you do that it's very you
realize that the good guy bad guy thing
just doesn't apply I wonder if it's the
little things or a few big things
that caused this connection whether it's
I mean you've talked about granola and
blow jobs but those seem to be stories
that you can tell to yourself like
um maybe maybe that story should be
explained uh or maybe you don't think
you don't think for an online blowjobs
is self-explanatory almost I think I
think people can construct a good like
if you ask GPT what do they mean I think
the story that would come up is pretty
good one but you know that's a story you
tell about when you first knew
it's the disconnection has begun is when
you stop putting my buy my favorite
granola or when she stopped giving
blowjobs I would say when it's
reached like a critical mass yeah phase
shift because I think it started before
that when she said yeah I used to give
him blow jobs and you know when we were
in our early relationship and then one
day like I just was like oh well you
know we don't have much time like I'll
wait until later and we'll have sex and
then we both enjoy it blowjobs are
inefficient yeah exactly correct so you
batch it all together yeah so she said
well exactly and they had kids at that
point so I think she really was like Hey
we've gotten certain window yeah so
let's have something we both enjoy so I
don't think she had any negative
intentions there I think that that she
was working in good faith towards the
betterment of the relationship but it
was having this second order effect and
so I
I I really do think that yeah the
blowjobs granola I mean they're anyone
who's been in a long-term relationship
I guess it's just worth asking the
question
what what does this person do that makes
me feel loved
because I I
think it's very interesting in my own
experience in life
I was remember I had a difficult chapter
with one of my sons my younger son when
he was in his early 20s
and we were having a heartfelt
conversation and I said to him do you do
you know I love you
and he said well yeah of course I do I
said but do you feel my love like do you
feel it you know not just do you know it
intellectually do you feel it
and I remember thinking to myself when
do we feel someone's love right like
what what is it that they do and
sometimes it's the weirdest silliest
things that they would never know they
are the person who's showing us that
they love us and that we're feeling
their love they would never show us
like if you said why why does this
person love you they wouldn't say oh
cause
um I always make sure that when the
paper comes I bring it from the bottom
of the driveway to the door so they
don't have to go out and get it where I
always hold the door for them or I you
know oh I always like again I buy the
granola that I know this person likes
you know or I I remembered that they
don't like it when I put on this
particular record so I don't put it on
like and and those are these yes they're
small things but they're not small
they're kind of everything do you think
it's good to communicate that stuff what
it takes away some of the power of it
right when you point it out
then the person realizes oh okay he
likes this or dislikes this so yes it
becomes a deliberateness to it you know
a conscious
so I understand not pointing that out
when it's a good thing
I think when it's a negative thing like
I I think in in the granola situation
if she had said to him
hey
you used to do this and you've stopped
that feels like something to me like she
said she didn't say anything about that
just like he probably didn't say
anything about the blowjobs like I think
if there had been a moment of this is
starting let's talk about it while it's
starting but people wait from what I can
see people wait until the big thing
happens the financial impropriety the
substance use disorder the cheating they
wait for that to happen and then they go
where did we go wrong and the answer is
quite a while ago
with the granola
yeah yeah so when you notice something
like you notice that little something
talk about it
because that little something is
probably kernel of a deeper truth of
course there is also moods we're all
like a roller coaster of emotion so you
can not bring a granola one day just a
just because you're in this place where
just not nothing is just cynicism
everywhere just anger and so on but it's
a temporary feeling but maybe that
temporary feeling is grounded in some
other deeper current that's actually
building up yeah and I think a good
partner
wants to understand the currents yeah
they're of their party yeah if they want
to understand like hey are you going
through something like and look if I'm
the one you need to take it out on
that's okay like I'm a big boy I can
take it you know like if you're hormonal
if you're you know frustrated at work if
you're whatever like we should be able
to you know to to have a little bit of
of that interaction in a relationship
but I I do think
it's so easy to just say to people
communication is the key but it really
is about
Fearless kinds of communication it's
about really honestly saying to somebody
you know this
this is feels like something to me am I
wrong like this just feels like
something to me and also how that's
presented I mean one of the things I I'm
very
you know I'm very caught up on or or
feel very strongly about
is that we we have been encouraged
culturally to criticize people we're in
long-term relationships with not new
relationships new relationships you put
the person on a pedestal you're allowed
to just oh they're wonderful but every
Trope out there in every form of popular
media is like the wife rolling her eyes
at the husband and the husband being
like Oh there's loads some Harpy that
castrated me as if like people are just
passive players in their lives and I I
think
that is an incredibly toxic message to
send to people that this is how we
should be relating to our partner like
we should not you don't take the piss
out of your partner in front of people
like the successful relationships I've
seen are where people are just cheering
for their partner where they are
thickest thieves where there is just
this feeling of like man they like each
other like they are they got each
other's back like you wouldn't believe
like man you could take sides against
anybody but take sides against their
partner you're going down like and that
when you see a couple that has that
you just you know it's that's so hard to
break but but I think that comes from
having like a
steadfast yeah no I don't do that like I
don't shit talk my partner yeah like and
you don't shit talk my partner to me you
know like and that to me is when because
I think we're just so criticized by the
world the world is so full of criticism
we criticize ourselves so harshly that
having a partner who no matter what is
like you've got this I'm With You Like
You Fuck okay yeah you screwed up I see
it look I'm not gonna lie to you about
your blind spots you screwed up but you
know what people screw up sometimes you
gotta write to screw up a lot of people
screw up come on get up let's go I know
you have it in you if you have that
person like that I I feel like that's a
that's a superpower to have that effect
on another person yeah one of the things
I love seeing when you look at a couple
and one is talking
uh like in an interview yeah answering a
question especially like intellectual
questions
like uh what do you think about the war
in Ukraine or something and then the
partners talking and the other the other
person is looking at them as if they're
hearing the wisest thing yeah ever like
they're they're looking at them not
waiting for their turn to speak not
thinking about how's the audience going
to take that but they're looking at them
like God damn I'm so lucky yeah to be
with this smart motherfucker isn't that
but there's this and they could be
saying the dumbled shit there's a scene
in the movie True Romance yeah because I
love a great movie I mean that Gary
Oldman seems like the greatest scene
ever done in in film you know with
Christian Slater and he but there's a
scene in it where she holds up a sign to
Christian Slater and it says you're so
cool you're so cool and I I like man
like that's it yeah that's it like I
I've always I think I said somewhere in
the book that you know you go to
weddings and like when the bride walks
in you know everybody's looking at the
bride it's her show you know everybody
turns around is the first Glimpse
everybody gets the bride and I never
look at the bride I always look at the
groom looking at the bride
because there's this like to me that's
every like he has this look like this
because this is the first time he's
seeing her in the dress most of the time
and also he's seeing her like holy shit
she's coming down the aisle we're
getting married like but this is it and
everyone's looking at her
and and I always look at him because I
always think to myself like like the
look on his face is like that's like
this feeling of like holy yeah wow okay
like that's everyone's looking at her
and she's mine and she's coming up here
and we're getting married and I feel
like yeah like that that kind of
adoration
like I think that's the look we're
describing is like adoration like that
the words coming out of their mouth that
they're like yeah that's mine that one's
mine you know that's such a great thing
like it's such a great feeling seeing
the good stuff like with uh with True
Romance I mean you could uh make fun of
the guys totally cringe wearing Elvis
like be essentially being a fake Elvis
with Shades and like what what is he
doing it's like watching these kung fu
movies but from her perspective and from
any perspective you could take on him is
this is the the baddest motherfucker
who's ever lived like he's willing to do
those things for me but not like
it's almost like an epic heroic figure
yeah and we're living in this Epic
hero story and what does that do to him
though yeah that's what see that that's
the point like if there's a point to
this
to this whole thing this whole couple
thing yeah isn't that it yeah like I
don't I don't understand this idea of
you know we had a successful marriage we
were married for 50 something years we
were miserable for 47 of them but we
hung in there like it this is an
endurance event like the primary
relationship of your life you've decided
you're gonna turn into the the like a
50-mile trail race
like why why would you do that like
congratulations you you took the concept
of monogamy and made it something that
two people are absolutely not gonna
enjoy but you hung in there like
congratulations and I understand there's
religious perspectives that say well
it's a sacred Covenant but I I have a
real chicken or the egg problem with
that yeah because I think it was like
well how do we sell this incredibly
stupid concept that isn't working to
people I know we'll tell them God says
you have to and and we'll sign on for
that I I don't buy it I don't buy it
anymore I really because when you see
a successful marriage where you see to
be even without a marriage you see a
pair bond you see a couple that really
love each other and cheer for each other
in that way and like hang on each
other's words that way and like are just
in each other's Corner that way
you see the fake shit instantly yeah
like you you see the difference right
away it's like if you you know the first
time this is the first time I've come to
Austin I've had I thought I'd eaten a
lot of barbecue in my life
I've never had Texas barbecue I landed I
went and had barbecue I was like okay
I've never had barbecue before
apparently this is there's a whole
different thing I think it's the same
thing I think it's like once you see
real love like real love and and I mean
romantic love like real love like that
real Bond real you go oh yeah this other
thing's not gonna do it do you think
that's a daily deliberate choice that
that a couple like that makes
because it feels like a very easy to do
deliberate step
like choose to see the brilliant in it
the beautiful in it and almost
immediately everything shifts and it
becomes this momentum or all you see is
the beautiful and all you see is the
brilliant that is a conscious choice I
think approaching life that way is a
conscious Choice approaching any
relationship that way is a conscious
choice I mean looking at
someone who hurts you
or does something hurtful to you
and thinking about what's going on in
their life that they're doing that or
what's happening with them yeah that's a
very conscious choice and I think a
better one a better one than seething in
animosity and letting that eat you alive
but but I I don't know that it's
I don't think it should be so difficult
like with our children with our pets we
don't have this problem like you never
have someone look at their dog who
they've had for eight years and go I
gotta get a new dog like I've had this
one for eight years like I gotta get
like puppies are so cute what am I doing
with this old dog like it's the total
opposite they're like oh my God this is
like my dog this is my dog like the
smell of the dog it's like this my dog's
smell the bad habits of the dog you're
like that's my stupid dog that does
stupid things and it's not like that has
to be a conscious like they wake up
every dingo I should be grateful for the
dog like it's just
you know and so and your children like
people's children you know it's why
people are like not aware of how
annoying their children are because
they're not annoying to them like I get
it like to you the sound of your kids
shrieking
is like oh my kid's having a good time
and you don't get
that and see when I try to when I hear
that I try to hear it with those ears
like oh that like I'm a parent I get it
my kids are adults now but like I get it
like so when I hear a kid shrieking I
just I'm like ah like to that parent
that's the sound of that kid having a
great time and good like it's so nice
that that's in the world but it so for
me it has to be conscious for that
parent I don't think it has to be
conscious so I think it would be great
if it didn't have to be a conscious
practice but I wonder if like anything
in meditation or mindfulness
it's a matter of exercising that way of
seeing yeah and then once you've come to
that
it becomes it does itself right like it
it really does like your
I think it's it initially has to be a
conscious practice
and and by the way it's easier to make
it a conscious practice before it
started to fade right like the I mean
that's what's so amazing about marriage
is there's like almost eight billion
people in the world and you're picking
this one so when you marry in theory
like the stocks at its highest like
you're as crazy about each other as you
could possibly be so that's the time to
get into this mindfulness to get into
this practice not once it's like the
wheels are starting to come off it's
much harder it's like gaining a bunch of
weight and then saying okay how am I
gonna lose the weight now well I think
that even before marriage like right
away just see everything is beautiful
let me quote BoJack Horseman on this
when you look at someone through Rose
Colored Glasses all the red flags just
look like Flags that's great there's a
there's a certain sense where
if you're from the very beginning of
course you could end up in toxic
relationships that way but
you know life is short you're gonna die
eventually might as well really go all
in on relationships there's a line in
the drugstore cowboy which is a great
film where he says we played a game you
couldn't win to the utmost
yeah and I think everything I think life
is a game you can't win and so you play
it to the utmost like to love anything
is insane
because you are accepting that you're
going to lose it
like I I'm a dog person and I and
you you get a dog and you're you've just
resigned yourself to unbelievable pain
because this thing's gonna die in like
10 years maybe 15 if you're lucky
and why would you open your heart to
that why would you let because the joy
is just so wonderful of it the of the of
the ride up until it same thing with us
I mean every marriage every relationship
every love is gonna end it's going to
end in death or divorce so why not like
just go in like go in like go in and
just get get weird you know like don't
Define it the way that's I mean look at
you know again we keep going back to
True Romance but just get weird like
yeah I love this Elvis pretending to be
weirdo I love this like you know like
former sex worker who's like you know
like whatever like just go in like love
this person have them love you don't
worry about what everybody else is doing
in their relationship like we're in such
I mean it's not to me surprising that
that as the performative aspects of Life
on social media increases people's
satisfaction with their relationships
and the divorce rate you know is is
following the same Trend because I I
think everyone's going well what's
everybody else doing you know what how
much sex is everyone else having the
only two people that should worry about
how much sex you're having to the two
people if the two people are happy in
the relationship great then what does it
matter what does it matter what
everybody else is doing yeah there
should be an element to Great
relationships and great friendships of
like fuck the world it's US versus us
it's us yeah and that's what I mean when
I say that that thick is thieves like
when they're when they're like a unit
like that because it's look at it's just
us it's just what we want it's what we
like and that's why I I said like you
know even when it comes to sex or things
like that like if you can't be candid
with your partner about whatever weird
shit you're into or what fantasy you had
and any particular yeah well no matter
who the hell can you be candid with I
mean because you're gonna either go
without or go elsewhere and neither of
those is a particularly healthy option
or helpful option it's it's the start of
that decline so why why open yourself to
that decline which invariably is just
the path to the chair in front of me in
my office yeah you have uh a full
section in your book on on foot fetishes
I do I do yeah which is funny because I
don't know anything about football
images yeah like I can't I'm not King
shaming anybody but like there's nothing
sexual about feet to me at all like I
just don't get it I don't but I mean
listen people like things it's good you
know but yeah I I have had clients that
have
odd fetishes or sexual proclivities or
things they want to do and they don't
share it with their partner at all and
then they find an outlet for it because
they try to go without it and that
doesn't work so they try to find some
other outlet for it and then that's
interpreted as a betrayal and it creates
distance and people split up and of
course everybody likes to have like a
you know a bad guy to blame it on so
when you say Well why'd you guys get
divorced oh because he's secretly out of
foot fetish and he was on these message
boards like people about well it gives
you an easy answer as to why the two of
you split up but I don't think you know
most divorces have such simple answers
is it was a foot thing but I also think
too like listen if you got a partner
and we all do stuff that we're not super
into because we're in a relationship and
that's what part of it is like do you
really want to go see that chick flick
do you really want to eat at this
restaurant you really want to go to her
cousin's wedding no but you know part of
being a relationship is okay if you're
into this I'm gonna
pretend this song's a good song you know
even though it's not my favorite song
and and I think
I I just don't know we've turned sex I
mean sex has been so politicized in
recent years maybe it always was but I I
think we've made it into something where
we can't just I don't know I'm not in
defeat but if the woman I love was like
you know I'm really in defeat like I
really want to do stuff with your feet
I'd be like all right I can pretend I'm
into that like for it's not gonna kill
me yeah no I'm not gonna be able to make
it a centerpiece of our coupling but you
know like yeah I can pretend them into
feed if you want I don't personally have
any fetishes that are outside of the um
the normal discourse as a divorce lawyer
I get to experience the whole Spectrum
but if I like if I was into like furries
for example yeah I don't know how I
would initiate the conversation with my
partner about that
but but frame the question the other
direction if you were into furries yeah
how do you prevent your partner from
knowing anything about that
that feels like a real you'd have to
make a conscious choice to not let your
partner know sure sure so so I I don't
think either of those is a particularly
palatable or easy proposition but a lot
of people live life hiding some part of
themselves yeah quite unsuccessfully
like it the the second order effects of
that are very rarely positive sure I
don't I don't think I've ever met
someone and went yeah I really hid this
huge part of myself for an extended
period of time and that's the best thing
that happened it's I'm really glad I'm
really glad I stayed in the closet as
long as I did you know it really worked
out like it rarely does it's a question
of how long can you hold it off yeah
like I know gay men
who stayed in the closet for 40 years 50
years of their lives
and then they had a successful second
chapter as a gay man
I've had clients like that
do they regret that they were in the
closet no because they were married they
had kids like they had experiences
they're glad they had
but with their advice to a young person
in their 20s and 30s who's gay be stay
in the closet because then you can have
a wife and some kids and then you can
come out when you're 50 or 60 and have a
second chapter no they would say you
know be who you are don't be afraid you
know as you were talking I'm trying to
think of because I I'm publicly and
privately I'm the exact same person I
try to be the exact same person so I
usually try to make sure there's nothing
to hide but I I was trying to come up
with the counter example for you for if
there's good things
um well I mean there could be like past
relationships like well if I you know
slept with thousands of women or
something like this maybe that you wanna
put that to the side well you don't want
to be in there's a difference between
being honest about something and being
indelicate about it right you know like
I I I think we all do this with lovers
like any of us who've been in more than
one relationship
you would not you know at the end of sex
be like that was the third best sex I've
ever had you know like you that's it's
just in delicate it's rude you know so
so I don't think it's a matter of like
total Candor at all times
but I I think if you were using the
furry example I'm not picking on furries
I just think if if that is a proclivity
that is anything other than a passing
thought like it's something that you
just keep coming back to
then you're making a conscious decision
to withhold it from your partner and
what is that out of I mean I would say
it's probably out of fear I'm not a
psychologist but probably out of fear
fear that they would reject you that
they okay well now
see I I genuinely believe that that
this
you know
I I'm I'm very conflicted in my
religious Faith but I
I don't know that I believe in the devil
but if there was a devil
I think his principal function would be
to convince us that we are so beastial
that God couldn't love us
it would be to convince us that we're
awful
and that we should just lean into the
awfulness and I know the the greatest
low points of my life came whenever I
just went you know what I'm just I'm
just awful I might as well just behave
awfully
and
I I really believe
that
when you don't
when you push down parts of yourself
like your sexuality
like your insecurities your true
feelings from your romantic partner the
person who's supposed to be your you
know your number one
you are making sure you will never feel
their love
because they don't love you
they love the you you've presented to
them which you know in your heart is not
the authentic honest real you
and so if you know you're super into
furries
and you don't tell your partner about
that
and your partner says I love you so much
and you know what I love one of the
things I love about us is we have such
great sexual chemistry you'll never feel
that love because you know yeah that's
not true though she doesn't know she
doesn't know that actually I'm not
really satisfied and there is this thing
that I want that I know I can't even
tell her because I'm so ashamed like
that doesn't feel like a good option to
me
yeah yeah so that kind of vulnerability
is essential to intimacy you know I'm
prone to Jujitsu metaphors and this is
one of the first conversations where I
can actually use them because the person
I'm talking to is a jiu jitsu person but
and people should know that you are a
quote-unquote Jiu-Jitsu person you have
been Afflicted with the I am a brown
belt under Marcella Garcia and I am like
a seven year brown belt now so which is
the right way to be a brombo well and
also I am I am you know late middle aged
middleweight and moderately talented so
I'm I'm and training it at that Academy
with so many incredibly talented people
and training in New York City where
there's so many unbelievably talented
people you're you're constantly humble
and feeling like you should just be
wearing a blue belt all the time
um but but a lot of I think as you know
and as most most people who practice Jiu
Jitsu know you start to sort of see Jiu
Jitsu and everything I genuinely believe
that in
love
you you have to give something to get
something you have to CR everything you
do creates a vulnerability
you know every every move you make in
jiu jitsu
creates opportunity and creates
vulnerability and so you have to be
willing to create vulnerabilities in
order to get any leverage in order to
get any progress and any way to move the
position you know you don't want a
marriage that's just two people both in
50 50. you know like you're just sitting
in that guard doing nothing you know you
you wanna you want it to actually move
along
yeah I mean that's the way I see love in
relationships is you should take that
leap of vulnerability give the other
person the option to destroy you
what you have to expose and that's
that's the part that I think is is
um hard for everyone you know is is to
expose yourself in that way but that's
what I mean even when I said about
getting a dog or having a child like
love loving anything
is tremendously courageous
because it's terrifying
and and it's only Brave if you're scared
if you're not scared you know it's not
brave it's just stupidity it's just you
know it's it's it's bravery when you're
afraid and you do the thing anyway and
so love is like yeah it's scary like it
I don't care who you are like I you know
being you know in the Jiu Jitsu
Community like I'm around you know as
you are all like incredibly tough people
like physically tough people mentally
tough people but you know I've seen some
of those people taken down yeah by a 120
pound woman you know not not not from a
grappling perspective but they are taken
apart Yeah by a woman in their life and
and vice versa I've seen men you know
who like it really is shocking how much
leverage we give to our romantic
partners and how little discussion we
really genuine discussion we really have
about it how much we really are ever
trained to think about it you know
there's nothing in school that teaches
us about it so much of literature and
art is an idealized version of it
so little of it is is real and no matter
how it evolves when it ends in tragedy
or uh drama
I feel like what people don't do enough
is appreciate the good times like
appreciate
how beautiful it is to having taken the
risk and two having experienced that
kind of love I think when you look at
people and that are divorcing each other
uh there's a Edgar Allan Poe quote the
years of Love have been forgot in the
hatred of a minute I always kind of am
saddened like deeply saddened
how people seem to forget how many
Beautiful Moments have been shared when
some
reason some drama some breakup leads
them to part ways yeah yeah it's
interesting that you came to that not
being a divorce lawyer because I I felt
that way for a long time and I really
try to say to my clients
like in the courtroom at the negotiating
table I have a role to play where I have
to be sort of like a Pit Bull or you
know some kind of a like a courtroom
sociopath but behind closed doors like
I'm very candid with people I'm trying
to be much more emotionally attuned with
so you're in
empath in the sheets and sociopath in
the streets exactly correct that's well
said I get a new tattoo idea that's good
I like that
I I
but I I do believe when I'm behind
closed doors with people I say to them
how you end things is going to be how
you're going to remember the whole thing
and and that's unfortunate because you
know you watch like a two-hour movie
and if the last 15 minutes of it sucked
you go well that movie sucked like well
the first hour in 45 was great you know
but you walk out with this bad taste in
your mouth
I I'm genuinely
in awe of how easily people forget that
they loved each other
and and I'm amazed Because by the time I
meet them and by the time they they hire
me to be a weapon against the person
they were in love with
there's nothing but animosity there
and so I have to try to imagine
what these two people looked like when
they were in love with each other and
how that even existed but
I have to tell you like I I you know I I
don't function that way like I
every woman I ever had a relationship
with like I when I think of them I I
don't think of the ending necessarily I
think of I try to think about the
greatest hits I try to think about the
moments that were wonderful where I
loved them and they loved me and like
there was joy and there was connection
and I I don't know why you'd choose not
to you know it's there's that old Axiom
I don't know who said it that
if you don't learn to find joy in the
snow you'll have you'll have less joy in
your life and precisely the same amount
of snow
and I genuinely believe like okay the
relationship ends this is where it ends
we're done now
I I am making a choice as to how I will
remember you and and we do it in
relationships like I I always tell
people you know if you ever want to see
a couple light up if they're ever like
the couple at the table that's you know
it seems like they got in a fight or
something ask them how they met
and most people when they talk about how
they met like their face softens they
both in the other person looking at them
telling the story gets that look you
were talking about before and because
they remember that thing and how they
felt at that moment and when when this
person was a choice
not a default not their automatic plus
one but the person they asked to the
wedding not though of course you're
bringing her it's your wife you bring
your fucking wife places like it was
still hey there's like you know three
and a half billion women and I'm picking
you you know like that that feeling and
and I don't know when why when a
relationship ends
you can't do that a lesson I learned
when my mother passed away of a very
two-year terrible battle with cancer and
was on hospice and was very very sick
and it was a very slow and awful end
and I remember one of my worst fears was
that this is how I would remember my
mother for the rest of my life that I
would never be able to think of her that
I didn't think of what she had become in
the last months where she was withered
away to nothing in this bed you know
and I learned over time that memory is
very kind that like that faded somehow
and that now like when I remember her I
remember her healthy and vibrant I
remember her laughter I remember
positive things some of that is I like
to look at photos of that or but some of
it is just how I think memory works and
I I don't know why we don't apply that
to relationships and I think part of it
is because we have this binary view of
relationships that it's either success
which means you live happily ever after
for the rest of your lives and die
together
or like in short succession
or it was wrong it was awful and I I
don't understand why that would have to
be how we do it I think we could look at
relationships like what they are which
is Chapters
in a book
and that book is our life
and those chapters all have significance
and none of them would have the later
chapters none of them would happen
without the prior ones so there's this
beauty of me of that and it's I don't
know if that it's a choice
or if that is how it is and the rest is
just narrative that we've put on top of
it culturally for some reason well I
think to push back a little bit I think
memory
can also I think it is a deliberate
choice because I think memory can
basically that's how trauma works it can
Surface the negative stuff and the
negative stuff completely drowns out all
the positives so it's I think
uh uh it's a deliberate choice to make
your memory probably work that way you
know in relationships betrayal can do
that right sort of uh cheating
infidelity
like one event
can almost erase the entirety of your
uh understanding of the past and all the
memories are sort of shrouded in this
darkness of okay this what I believed
was true is totally untrue and started
to overcome that and still appreciate
the Beautiful Moments I'm
continually astounded
by how
long the hurt and anger of betrayal can
reverberate
I I have clients who were four years
five years passed when the divorce ended
the cheating was discovered and they're
as angry as they were the day they found
out
and and I
I don't know what that's about
yeah because I also have clients that
they like look back on it and they go
you know
we screwed up like we were you know we
didn't do the best but we did the best
we could do at the time and you know we
like there should be stars for Wars like
ours you know there should be champagne
for the survival yeah that's beautiful
like we made it through you know like we
survived it and we were fools and we
were fools for love and there are worse
things in the world to be fools for it
but I I also do think that most
relationships where there was infidelity
and it's not a it's not a popular thing
to say and I'll get i'll get pilloried
for it but great you know
I just don't
know and I don't want to blame the
victim of infidelity
but was the relationship really where it
needed to be like had were you truly the
most just dutiful spouse who was seeing
this person's needs be met again we've
established in the granola story that
people can sometimes with good
intentions not be meeting their
partner's needs or perceiving their
partner's needs or their partner isn't
communicating them the right way or all
of the above
but
I I've rarely seen very happy content
couples that cheat on each other
and so I I understand there's a shame in
saying this person cheated on me or I
cheated on this person
because I represent you know I represent
I represent the cheater and I represent
the cheated I represent the victim of
domestic violence I represent the
perpetrator of domestic violence I
represent the person with the substance
use disorder the person married to the
person so I I don't get to choose the
white or the black hat like I have my
client and that's my client
and and it forces me to put myself into
their story from their point of view
and I think that kind of radical empathy
that you need to engage in on a daily
basis to represent people in those kinds
of proceedings
it just I don't know it's it it just
doesn't seem like there's good guys and
bad guys you know it just seems like
it's complicated
and people's intentions and where they
actually end up are different yeah I
think there's some sense in uh still
remembering the Betrayal as it being a
symptom of taking life a little too
seriously too seriously where you don't
uh life shouldn't be taken that
seriously you should be able to laugh at
it all I like the story you say you know
be able able to appreciate the battle
that should give stars for those kind of
wars that we fought and just kind of be
able to laugh at it all especially with
love like life's just so absurd yeah
like it's so it's just crazy it's so
crazy I mean like I don't I you know I I
think it's funny I think
this is real Candor but you know as a
man like there's nothing funnier than
when you finish masturbating you know
there's no more humbling moment and I
like to think about the fact that like
the richest famous most powerful person
in the world they jerk off
you know the most powerful man in the
world jerks off I'm sure you know all of
them do I mean you probably know them so
you could ask but in that moment where
you just you come and you go
what am I doing like what the now I
gotta wipe that like oh holy good Lord
and there's this feeling of but a second
ago this seemed like a great idea and it
was by the way it was a great idea but
but you there's this moment this Satori
you know where you just go
oh like what this is so silly well like
that's love that's sex like it's crazy
like when you read
other people's infidelity
the text messages the emails because I
have to do that all the time and I'll
tell you how we make the sausage
in the divorce lawyer's office this some
of the most entertaining moments is
dramatic readings allowed of people's
infidelity exchanges but they're lovers
the sexts yeah the sects and uh the like
you know like it's just so ridiculous
because people have to go through like
all kinds of gymnastics to be able to
meet and have sex in weird places and
you know
and you're reading this and you're
reading these texts and you gotta go
like oh my God and by the way like I've
represented some very powerful people
and you read their texts with their
lover or even their spouse like even
their spouse you know
and they're just pathetic I mean they're
just like so not powerful they're so
like hey babe you know I I have a I have
a name totally nameless I have a very
powerful wealthy famous former client
where there's a whole series of texts
about is my dick weird
which by the way I think the answer is
if you have to ask if you have a weird
dick the answer is probably yes because
I've I've owned one and I've never
thought is this weird
but but I I
the fact that you're having this
discussion like it's absurd it's
hilarious like love is hilarious it's
bizarre it's such a weird vulnerability
it's such a a basic visceral human need
you know it it really is something that
we just
you know it's mysterious it it it but it
but it doesn't have to be that
complicated I don't think that even
betrayal like I said it doesn't have to
be that complicated I think we can frame
it differently yeah you can laugh with
the whole thing I mean I
I think what we don't often do with
ourselves
is uh look back at text or look back at
emails or look back at Google search I
did that recently just look at what I
searched for like 10 years ago 15 it's
like forget last week just look at your
Google searches
last week and you're like wait a minute
what why did you just search for this
right 50 times right like why did The
Karate Kid 3 pop in yeah exactly why and
like you're like where's Ralph Macchio
now and where who is he dating yeah uh
wise and his mother and then yeah and
then you're like in a restaurant nearby
yeah like how did I go from this to that
but but it made sense at the time so so
when you ask someone
how did our relationship Fall Apart
it's like looking at the Google search
history of yourself from tenure you
don't even know why you were thinking
about those things yeah and now you want
to understand why you did what you did
felt what you felt she felt what she
felt she did what she did and why the
two of you how you impacted each other
and interacted with each really you
think that's doable
but you've so you've in in the courtroom
does that come up like text messages
that resulted in uh with whoever you're
cheating with yeah I mean you know
cheating doesn't come up as much because
most states are no fault States now so
why someone's getting divorced whether
it's infidelity or you know it doesn't
matter there's no good spouse bonus or
bad spouse penalty well there isn't I
mean you know I'm wearing that like
that's well you can have we've had times
where we have to prove infidelity
because we want to prove what's called
wasteful dissipation of marital assets
which means that you were spending money
that was marital money on a Paramore
That's What the legal name for a ex you
know for a boyfriend or girlfriend in
the marriage and usually the person
calls it you know that whore or that
piece of shit but we call them Paramore
yeah the Paramore yeah and the the the
you know sometimes we have to prove
inclination and opportunity we have to
prove that this person had the
inclination to cheat and that they had
the opportunity to cheat and then we
want to show that okay so when they went
away that should be considered
dissipation and marital assets so if you
go out to dinner with your brother you
didn't dissipate the marital estate but
if you bought your Paramore a Tiffany
bracelet that would be a dissipation
marital assets and the person's entitled
to a credit back for that from what was
taken out of the marital estate so we do
sometimes have to authenticate text
messages on the witness stand or in
depositions you know and what's
interesting about that is the way people
approach it like people sometimes try to
pretend oh no this is just my good
friend you know and which is just like
you kill your credibility you know if
you oh no she's just my very good friend
she's not she's not that makes no sense
whatsoever for or no we were just
friends at that point and then several
months later is when we once this
marriage was over that's when we got
together as partner right that's
ridiculous
but sometimes people just own it just
own it like I did a deposition of an
executive once and
you know opposing counsel like thought
they were going to really hit them they
were like and looking at this credit
card receipt what was this charge for
for this hotel he was like oh that was
for a hotel room that I got with uh with
my girlfriend
and you were married yes yes what did
you where did you stay at the hotel it
was we didn't even stay we actually just
did like an afternoon delight rolled
around in bed for the day
yeah and it was like well now you know
took all the Thunder out of that what's
the downside of doing that that seems
like there wasn't it actually I think
helped his credibility it was my client
so I thought it was the right move we
hadn't really discussed it in advance
but he he was naturally intelligent
enough to go yeah my credibility like
I'm not gonna lie under oath I'll admit
what it was but I'll do it in such an
you know we did it like at the end like
Eminem at the end of eight mile like it
was very like yeah I cheated on her with
this person now tell these people
something they don't know about me you
know and and that's kind of how I try to
as a trial lawyer we we actually in my
firm refer to it as the Eight Mile
strategy which is like we will if I know
there was a text message sent you know
you piece of shit I hope you die my
client sent that text message to his
co-parent
I I on my examination of my client I
will say I'd like to have this marked
for identification shown to the witness
what is that it's a text message
who's it to
uh plaintiff
you sent it yeah read it out loud for
the court
oh do I have to
I think you should
uh you're a piece of uh s does it say s
no what does it say well it's a
profanity so you say it
uh you piece of shit I hope that you die
yeah you sent that to her yes why
I was really mad do you think that was
good
no do you think it's helpful to your
co-parenting relationship with her
no why did you send it then
you know she sent me like 50 texts
exactly like that and I never responded
and I pushed it down every time and then
finally I just blew up at her if you had
it to do over again would you do it
differently you know I wish I could say
I would but the truth is I'm human and I
was at my limits and I'm watching
opposing counsel cross out entire sheets
of their cross-examination because it's
gone now they thought that they had
their like Perry Mason moment they had
their like did you order the code red
moments and it's gone now because if you
just own and accept your fault or your
issues in the relationship
you can take a lot of the power out of
that
and I wish we wouldn't take text
seriously
I don't think we should have substantive
discussions via text I think text was
designed for are you here yes 15 minutes
away or I got here safely love you like
that substantive discussions are people
love having arguments via text and I
have to say when you read other people's
text messages as I am often forced to do
yeah it is amazing
because just like that Google history
you were talking about
I don't know how the hell you got from
one thing to another like I was just
reading on actually on on the way here
in the car I was reading through a text
exchange between two co-parents in the
middle of a custody thing that I'm I'm
involved in
and
you never cared about anything and I'm
gonna you have no right to take the kids
and then the next day nothing in between
the next day
Maddie got a uh you know a good great
honor science thing oh that's great
she's doing so well it makes me so happy
yeah her teacher said she's doing really
well yeah that's really great to see
I'll be there about 15 minutes late no
problem see you then
wait like it was a day ago was there
some I want to know was there a phone
conversation in between where one of you
went hey man listen I'm really sorry
about that oh no look we were both
pissed whatever or is it just like you
did that and then we're supposed to
pretend that didn't happen and now we're
just going to talk about what Maddie got
on her test yeah well sometimes a good
nap or a good night's sleep can solve a
lot of emotional issues totally get it
but is there some if if you're looking
just at the texts like it begs the
question
wouldn't you take the nap and then go
Hey listen I just woke up from the nap
it turns out I was really tired like
does that not happen by text oh no
that's uh because sometimes it's hard to
probably apologize for being an asshole
right so I think we use just text we
humans use
all kinds of forms of communication to
kind of vent I think it's the wrong
thing to do but
people do do that text has a permanence
though it's writing I mean it's writing
you you think like a lawyer I like
anything like a lawyer but lawyers think
lawyers think like detail you know and
and why would you write that down
like you know writing it down like would
you write it down and would you put it
on a billboard in Times Square because
like that's ex everything you say on
Facebook or Instagram Canon will be used
against you in a court of law like every
photo you post I mean that's going on
with uh what's his name Jake Paul or
whatever Paul and Dylan danis right now
that guy's girlfriend every picture's
ever been put on the internet of her by
her is being weaponized right now to
reference an earlier part of our
discussion that's love you take a big
risks big risk putting it out there yeah
um putting out there on text putting out
there on social media what is the reward
of doing it via text worthwhile I'm
listen the reward of love I think is
worth the risks of love but the benefit
of communicating by text does it Merit
that that risk of that being in writing
that the person can reflect on and
review and scroll back and get heated up
again about I don't know we just take
risks and we're vulnerable with each
other there may be something about text
that for whatever reasons inspires a
kind of candor
because I think it it is a new way to
communicate right in the scheme of
things and so sometimes you know we
don't know the thing until it's really
come into existence so I don't know I
think it started as something that we
just communicated in a very
extemporaneous unplanned way like texts
were meant to be I'm here I'm outside
whatever it might be
and so what happens when you
start to talk about more emotional
deeper bigger things or visceral things
or more emphatic passionate things using
a technology that was originally just
being used for the other purpose I don't
I don't know the answer that what I do
know is yeah as a lawyer
a from an evidentiary perspective
and B I just know what it looks like on
the outside like I I I know when I read
it what it looks like and that's that's
not always accurate like to just see the
it's like when you watch you know a
video of someone at just their worst
moment you know and the person that
tries to say but wait that's not me like
that was just me in that moment that was
me at this incredible low point and
I I think as a lawyer my job is to
weaponize that and to try to say okay
this this low point is indicative of who
they actually are yeah and when I'm
defending someone I'm supposed to say
you know well this is their low Point
we've all been to a low point and this
is just a moment in this person and to
judge them by that moment would you want
to be judged by your worst moment so I
have to be able to look at that both
directions
yeah I mean I don't think anyone looks
great on text I mean there's so much of
our communication that that is missing
your you know your your expression like
my sense of humor does not do well via
text like I I because I have like
sometimes a sarcastic sense of humor or
I have a dry sense of humor and it does
not always translate well to text the
Nuance of things is lost sometimes you
know yeah but that's what makes the risk
of it uh hilarious I mean the Emojis the
memes all that
um taking a risk the dry the there's a
risk with the text if you do some like
dark dry
statement right that's a joke and then
the pause and then there's no response
for a couple hours I mean that's
beautiful I don't know that's a that's
like a it's this you know it's it's the
gap between the two trapezes you know
like once you've hit send and you're
like well let's see where this goes like
it's coming back now you know and and
you're waiting and waiting it's like
that moment of just hang is yeah that's
a rush I mean that's a rush that's a
beautiful thing we'll have uh my friend
Michael malice living close by and if if
uh the courtroom or ever to see the text
between us I would we would be both in
jail for many many years subpoena yeah
when this finally comes out when I have
my Johnny Depp ever heard moment is
ready we'll get Michael Mouse well but
that was one of you know the Johnny Depp
Amber Heard thing was a great example of
in a gunfight between those two everyone
was cheering for the bullets I mean no
one was I don't think anybody looked
like a hero they both looked like what
they are which is humans really flawed
humans who had
you know it really is like that that
People magazine thing Stars they're just
like us you know like we watched that
and went like oh yeah they're just like
us like they cannot keep it together
they cannot have like they just have
these ridiculous toxic moments where
both of them look awful in that trial
well what do you take away from that
trial just just given given all the work
you've done I mean for me I don't know
if you could speak to that it's probably
the first time I've seen
that kind of
a a complicated relationship even just
to say a relationship laid out in this
raw form like the fights of a
relationship yeah my feeling about that
trial is there is no amount of money
that would be worth laying that kind of
stuff bare publicly for you if you were
dying to me yeah there's no way I don't
know because they both look awful they
both look awful and I don't think I I
don't think I'm qualified to say if one
of or both of them are awful
but they both had moments in that
courtroom where their behavior and words
looked awful
and and I just don't know that that
exposing that to the world like the I
just don't know I mean I understand the
point of view that that by bringing that
suit Johnny Depp was saying look I yeah
I have to show these awful things to the
world about myself but it's it's not as
bad as what she's claimed I've done so I
get it I'm not saying that's incorrect
and for Amber Heard I think her response
is well for him to say I'm lying you
know I have to prove my but my God like
what an awful thing to watch I I it was
all it really is is just another it's
just another couple like well there's so
you know how banal that is you know any
kind of stuff happens a lot a lot it's
the norm it's not it's not the exception
they just happen to have like a grand
scale because they have you know lots of
people around them and lots of money but
yeah it's all this that kind of
dysfunction that kind of chaos that kind
of he said she said to people with
completely differing his histories of
what happened in the marriage false
allegations of domestic violence or true
allegations of domestic violence that
are completely denied by the person and
you have witnesses that'll say oh my God
they never engaged in any kind because
again no one engages in domestic
violence with company over you know you
don't like invite friends like people
always say like oh no I saw them they
seem so happy like people always do this
to me as a divorce lawyer they come in
and they go well here's photos of the
kids you know smiling with me so that's
proof that like I'm a good dad I'm like
there's photos of Jeffrey Dahmer smiling
with people he ate later and you're you
think these photos prove something like
I I don't the lack of I'm in the middle
of a very complex domestic violence
trial and the entire defense on the
other side is well we have photos of
them on vacation where they look very
happy and she never called the cops
that's no defense at all like most
victims of intimate partner abuse don't
call the cops they don't identify
self-identify as victims of domestic
violence and they probably have many
stretches of time of intense happiness
or happiness of course and by the way
perpetrators of domestic violence are
charismatic
how else would they get victims you know
it's not like if they were ogrish no one
would sign on for that relationship it's
that when they're good they're so good
that when they're bad you go but wait no
that's not him the really good person is
him or her you know we saw that in in in
the public testimony of that you know
deaf herd thing is they there were
moments where you look at her and go oh
my God like I want one just like that
and there are moments where you listen
to the testimony and go oh my God she's
awful like what that's just evil yeah
and the same for him so I I really
this should teach us something about
how not only are there two sides to
every story like that that there's just
so much complexity and Nuance to these
but I think it
one was asking the question whether you
were team depth team heard or team I
could care less about either of these
people
everybody's looking at it going why like
what eight billion people in the world
why did you stay together just break up
you're miserable it's obvious it's
obvious you're not this this can't be
worth it I've uh actually become
friendly with Kamil Vasquez who's uh the
lawyer on the Deb side she's an
incredible woman great lawyer and just
great human being just how passionate
she's about to work I mean you you
radiate this kind of same passion like
she's just truly happy doing what she
does yeah and and but also
where the stress of a case
is like takes like it is Becomes Her
She's you can't sleep all this kind of
stuff which is fascinating that's I
think that's a function of our
professions we we
um even after 20 plus years of doing
this like the night before a trial I can
hardly sleep and uh excitement fear yes
yes okay all of that all of that and and
I even have moments as I
I I pull up to the courthouse and I
listen I wear certain cuff links that
are like my lucky cuff links or
something and and I pull up to the
courthouse I walk into the courtroom and
I have this feeling in the pit of my
stomach and then it starts
and the moment it starts something in me
goes oh yeah I know how to do this yeah
and it's instantly like I just I own it
I love it and it's yeah it's the the
people that love this job
you know being a a trial lawyer being a
particularly a divorce trial lawyer
family law trial lawyer it's I love it I
love I I love it more than I loved it
when I started doing it I still you know
I I can't imagine spending five days a
week looking forward to two you know I I
love what I do I I don't know that I'll
ever love anyone or anything more than I
love
the work
so I saw you on uh talk with Steve
Harvey a bunch of times and it was I
always loved it uh one thing just sticks
in my head from something he said as
advice that if you and your partner your
spouse are you know if there's a fight
there's a difficult thing you have to
deal with
keep that to yourself don't talk to
anyone else like that's a little like uh
what does he say like a two-armed circle
or something whatever the expression is
but basically resolve it all internally
don't like when you face the world you
have a front of like don't take off
against the family yeah yeah yes like it
all boils down to Godfather everything
boils down to Godfather references it
really does and True Romance yeah you
don't take sides against the family you
don't you don't you don't show that
weakness to the world I I mean again I
don't know that
I don't know that Steve in Candor would
say you shouldn't discuss it with your
own therapist you know but but I think
what he's saying is don't project it out
to the world don't share that because I
I think you know it will it can change
the way people view your relationship
which then will change the way you view
your relationship
you know and and so I I think
um don't run Reckless when it comes to
your that primary relationship
don't run your mouth recklessly yeah
it's one of the things uh I mentioned to
you Offline that you know my now close
friend Joe Rogan I've never heard him
ever speak negatively of his wife it's
always like super positive how awesome
of a person she is and that to me has
always been an inspiration to do the
same for every everybody in my life to
always speak positively about them is uh
that has a probably a virtuous spiral
effect I'm sure like I that's
that's probably because he has a great
wife
and he has a great wife in part because
of that yeah like I I think it's clear
that he's in her corner and cheering for
her it's clear she's cheering for him
like they they have it's not like Joe
Rogan's not a man who has opportunity I
mean he's surrounded by UFC ring girls
for God's sakes like this is a guy who
has all the opportunity in the world and
he seems to be quite a fan of his wife
and that is you know that's a superpower
like that's a real thing now the
question is is you know he doesn't seem
to talk about it like oh I gotta really
work at that yeah you know and that's
not a man who's afraid to talk about
what he works at you know he's pretty
honest about man yeah I gotta work
really hard to stay and show I gotta
work really hard to be able to do this
like yeah I'm not good at memorizing
that it takes time yeah but I've never
heard him say like oh marriage is a lot
of work like and I think that's to his
credit because it seems like they're
enjoying that yeah it's also not
incredibly public like it's not
something most people couldn't pick her
out of a lineup he kept it private for
many years and just because it's a
private Joy it's a private like deep
meaningful intimate partnership that's
interesting that's also an inspiration
it doesn't not everything about your
life has to be this like like look at me
I'm happy like uh I'm in a happy
relationship everything is wonderful
especially that I I think there is
something about
the womb like cocoon-like
Joy you know of like love you know when
you're just tucked in snuggled in like
just pressed against each other with
that like that that's such a
you know like a it's just the two of you
yeah and that's lovely you know and
that's such a a good thing and I I like
we're just dying for connection you know
and and that connection is so
big it's so everything you know one of
my
earliest psychedelic experiences
probably when I was a teenager
but a theme that's been persistent in
every psychedelic experience I've ever
had
is this idea of like everything is
connection everything is
being pressed to someone and with them
you know like the warmth of human
connection like I one of the reasons I I
enjoy listening to your work and your
perspective has always been that I I
think at the core
you see connection and love and and I
think for me
from
my earliest experiences with
psychedelics at you know 16 17.
I was very attuned to that I was very
much that was put on my radar by
psychedelics
and just stayed part of my Consciousness
forever and I I think I had a
30-something year break from
psychedelics but it was like when I came
back to it I went oh yeah it's still
there that's still the core of
everything is connection
I mean it's fascinating How Deeply you
value connection how empathic you are
that you would be doing what you're
doing which is uh or or is it not is I
think it's the honor intuitive no I
think it's it's actually why I'm well
suited for what I do I think what I do
is I have to learn the story of my
client
and know it and feel it very deeply and
I have to feel it in a very human way
that's very compassionate to this person
and then I have to feel it and
understand it in a way that's incredibly
antagonistic to it so I can Shore up
defenses
so I have to I have to feel this
person's story and feelings
from every possible angle because every
one of them is a vulnerability and every
one of them is a potential strength and
a potential defense and so I I actually
think it's my number one other than
extemporaneous speaking ability it is my
number one job tool is the ability to
radically empathize and to put myself in
the emotional state of someone in its
best possible light and its worst
possible light
so that I can see again the defense and
I can see the vulnerability but I mean
so that's beautifully put but also just
to to Bear witness to this connection
broken in the yeah in those dramatic way
over and over and over and over that
part is hard but I was a hospice
volunteer for many many years when I
first got out of college
and it really showed me a lot about
you know what is
what is sadness what is tragic and what
is just inevitable Decay what is pain
and Decay like we all die like we play a
game you can't win to the utmost and so
if we know the answer to all of this is
you're going to die
then what do we do with the rest of that
time if all your stuff is just stuff
it's just going to go to the you know
the money is going to go like
everything's your looks is going to go
your everything's gonna go Love's Gonna
end one way then what are we doing you
know and I again I think it's love and
connection but what I'm doing for a
living
is helping and I don't look at it as
what I'm doing is helping people beat
the crap out of each other I look at it
as I'm trying to help a client
build their post-divorce life
to sort of Rise From the Ashes of that
which has fallen apart and move on to
the next chapter and refocus and have
the things they need financially
emotionally whatever it might be
interpersonally in terms of with their
kids and so for me it's actually a job
that is very consistent with my desire
to build connection and to be empathetic
and witnessing the ashes doesn't make
you cynical about the whole thing of
love no because again
you know 56 percent of marriages end in
divorce but 84 percent are remarried
within five years like we keep doing it
over and over again that's a good thing
I think it is a good thing the mess of
it the the absurdity of it the hypocrisy
of it that's a that's something
um that's something beautiful about that
well it's just the return is so great on
the investment you know like the listen
man I've had more than one dog
yeah like when my when my dog died
the first dog I had died I remember when
I'm never gonna love again I'm done I'm
done with this I will never expose
myself to this kind of pain again
I'll never have to take the dog bed and
put it in the closet and like oh
and then
some friend called me and said we have
an adoption event can you just watch
this dog for 24 hours and then we'll
take him you know we just need you know
and I went yeah all right I'll watch a
dog for the night you know and this dog
come and they say oh he has mange he's
knocking fuck I got another dog he
walked in my heart went yeah I got it
dog and now that dog is 13 years old
and his eyes are cloudy
and he doesn't go up the stairs real
well and he's gonna break my heart
and and I wouldn't change that for the
world
I'm still there um I'm still struggling
for the second one I have I lost the dog
and broke my heart and yeah
but and you'll and you'll never
you'll never lose that pain
but
I promise you
your heart has an infinite capacity for
the kind of love you felt with that dog
and you'll never feel a love that
replaces the whole
like there will never be another Buster
for me
but there was cava
and like you know what like and when
he's gone there will never be another
one of him but you know what like when
when that stupid puppy that was five
months old stumbled in I went
I guess I'm gonna do this again and you
know what I'm so glad I'm so glad and I
know by the way I know now because and
that's where I I've said like you know
it's that Joseph Brodsky poem you know a
song like I wish I knew no astronomy
when stars appear like I wish I didn't
know the pain but you know what like
I I don't care I don't care and I
believe we don't care I again I think
there's something to that if something
hurts so badly
and you go I'm gonna do it again I'm
going to do it that it must be a value
it must be of real value there's also a
different perspective on it uh that pain
so there's that uh from Louis the show
of this interaction with an old man with
Lucy K and he says that uh because Louie
is mourning the loss of uh got split up
he got dumped or whatever and his
mourning the loss of that partner of of
love and the old man says that that
is the best part
like missing the love is still love the
the bet the real bad part is when you
forget it when you when the pain Fades
it's all gone but the pain is actually a
kind of celebration of the love you ask
of course well the opposite of Love
isn't hate the opposite of Love is
indifference yeah there's no question
about that I mean it hate is a
passionate emotion love is a passionate
emotion but and and there is a school of
thought that says that only unfulfilled
love can be truly romantic
but I I believe that
it's what I think I learned from hospice
is that I I think
for me
knowing the impermanence
is is the thing you know it's the key
yeah it's finite as eventually it's
going to be over and so like that
intensifies the feeling that that's when
you can have
Pure Love without the drama dogs are for
me a great example
and again I don't know what it all means
right existentially but I just feel like
they have that that kind of love has to
be here to teach us something
and I I feel like the fact that they're
so amazing and just so loving and so
wonderful and the bond we feel is so
amazing and deep and it doesn't require
a lot of maintenance
and yet it's so finite like it's just
this short little lifespan
and I feel like that there's just such a
lesson there you know there's so much
there to unpack about the nature of
connection and loss and you know that
that that your heart has this infinite
capacity like when you're I'm telling
you when when my dog died when Buster
died I remember I thinking with
certainty I will never do this again
because I'll never love that way again
I'll Never Love A dog the way I love
this dog and it's just not true that's
just not true like you you have this
infinite capacity and and it's that
makes it scary actually because like
right now there's so many people you
could love there's so many dogs you
could love like there's so much out
there and it requires a certain bravery
and tremendous amount of risk to do it
you know and
um a commitment because I I think to
really experience love is you just dive
in because there is a huge number of
people but to really like I mean you you
have to like
really
um
dive into the full complexity the full
range of another human being yeah which
is hard
because we don't even I don't know that
we even feel comfortable diving into the
full range of ourselves
you know there's pieces of ourselves we
try to push away or not think about or
okay so uh speaking of the whole
sociopath slash empath that is all
embodied in one human being that is you
let's go back to some cases perhaps that
you've uh worked on just something that
stands out to you what's maybe
um the craziest most complicated thing
you've worked on is there something that
pops to mind craziest would be different
than most complicated let's go craziest
yeah so craziest ah
gosh that's a great question so from uh
chaos standpoint I mean I see so many
bizarre fact patterns and so many
variations of people cheating with
people people sleeping with the nanny
people sleeping with someone's a
relative of their spouse people having
same sex or polyamorous relationships
and the other person doesn't even know
they're not monogamous like so much
craziness
um that you could fill 15 books
in terms of complexity you know I mean
emotionally complexes any custody case
is emotionally complex because you're
you're dealing with parenting issues and
what makes a good parent I think is a
very tricky question because you know
I'm trying to convince a judge who's a
better parent
and that is so loaded with subjective
you know
value judgments
is there uh just a link on the maternal
presumption is that a thing you uh come
face to face with often well there was I
mean it was real it was the law there
was something in the law called the
maternal presumption it was also known
as The Tender Years Doctrine which meant
that a child under the age of seven was
presumed to be in the custody of the
mother unless you could show she was an
unfit mother
so that's where the idea of like someone
has to be proven an unfit mother came
from now in the 80s 1980s
that was changed but
you know
under my skin is under my sovereignty I
mean you can't suggest that there isn't
in the in the world
a suggestion that a mother who births a
child and feeds a child with her body
doesn't have a particular bond with a
child that's different than a father's
bond with a child
so where do we put that how much
importance do we put on it now that
there's better and more research in the
mental health field about attachment
Theory and infants there's also a lot of
you know a lot of research on how is
attachment formed how should parenting
schedules be put together based on
attachment Theory
but you know it there's conflicting
perspectives on that and so as judge to
judge you see like is there a lot of
variation yeah there is because there's
lots of kinds of Judges like there's
judges that are thoughtful enlightened
interested in the mental health research
and there's judges that just want were
unsuccessful lawyers that were good
politically and got elected and they
just want to you know they just want a
job where like they show up at nine
o'clock they have a lunch break from 12
until two o'clock and that they leave at
4 30 and they get a certain number of
weeks vacation and a pension after 20
years
so what is in general
the process of these custody battles
like what what are the what's the
landscape well most the overwhelming
majority of custody cases don't end up
in my office they they
are a negotiation between two people
that love their children more than they
dislike their soon to be ex
so the overwhelming majority of cases
are just two people going okay how are
we going to make decisions together
because there are decisions that have to
be made about kids will they go to
public or private school can they go on
medication if they need it or not should
we change pediatricians you know all
those kinds of things how do we make
decisions and when will we each spend
time with the kids
and so most custody cases are just that
most custody cases are just a discussion
a negotiation between Council about
those issues and and they're not
ugly and they're not anything they're
just people again sometimes people have
differing perspectives you know but
sometimes people haven't thought through
their perspective so as a divorce lawyer
a lot of what I'm doing is counseling a
person because they come in and say well
I've been the person who handles you
know all of the homework and all of the
everything so he should only see the
kids on weekends
and there's a logic to that like I've
always done the homework with the kids
so I'm the parent who's in charge of the
homework and he's obviously not
done that before
but there's also a logic that you can
then say right but then you're doing all
the heavy lifting of parenting and he's
doing none of that and you were a
married couple and living together so he
was trusting you to do that because
you're good at it and you you seem to
like it so maybe now we want him to have
to do some of the heavy lifting of
parenting because we don't want the
child when they're 13 to say I love Dad
we have nothing but a good time together
whereas you make me do my homework and
eat my broccoli dad's the grass on the
other side of the fence that's Greener
so sometimes it's about educating a
client to like change their frame you
know to look at this differently yeah
okay we always go to my mother's for
Thanksgiving so I need every
Thanksgiving okay well you were married
so you went to now you're going to have
New Traditions things are changing for
your children things are changing for
your family you're both going to have
New Traditions so a lot of times it's
just educating people
on looking at things in a different way
looking at their parenting in a
different way we're not going to live in
the same house anymore but we're still
going to parent these child you know
this child or these children together
what's much more interesting because
like you know I don't get invited to a
lot of parties but when I get invited to
parties if somebody says
what do you do for a living and I say
I'm a divorce lawyer and they go oh my
God you must have stories that's the way
everybody's oh my God you must have so
many stories
and if I said yeah there was this couple
and they you know slowly grew apart and
then they decided that it would be good
for them to end their relationship as a
married couple but they wanted to
continue to have an amicable
co-parenting relationship so they
divided their assets and and they
figured out a good parenting access
schedule that made sure that they both
had both Leisure Time and
responsibilities with the children
people would be like that's the worst
fucking story out that's so boring yeah
so what they really want is the like and
then he was sleeping with the nanny and
then she caught him so you know the the
truth is like people want to hear about
those flame outs and by the way those
are super interesting as a lawyer like
it's super
interesting it's usually going to be
what infidelity you do have a chapter
called everybody fucks the nanny
everybody's fucking The Nanny yeah he's
a nanny Fascination out there I try to
explain it in the book but yeah I mean
I've had some great Nanny stories I mean
people run off with the nanny people end
up getting married to the nanny
I had one where the the he convinced her
that they should have a threesome with
the nanny they got the nanny drunk they
had a bunch of threesomes with the nanny
and then the nanny and the wife
paired up and left him oh nice and
they're still quite happy that seems
like a happy ending for everyone but him
but it was his idea well he's really
gonna have a nanny Fascination now now
he's yeah well now he's got to see the
nanny who's now the like step parents to
the kids and it was his bright idea of
let's have a threesome with the nanny
you know yeah I mean the nanny thing I I
think is a function of in many
circumstances is the characteristics of
the wife
that
he remembers fondly
and that have been extinguished by the
presence of children
so I I my words of wisdom is not don't
get a nanny or make sure you get an ugly
Nanny my my thought on it is that a
woman should remember even when she's a
mother that she's also a woman who a man
you know they fell in love with each
other and she should take time to be in
touch with the part of herself that is
an independent woman that's interesting
and interested and you know like there's
a lot to be learned from divorced
couples because like divorced couples if
you do it right
it's awesome like I I had a wonderful
experience parenting and being divorced
because I divorced when my kids were
quite young my co-parent you know my
ex-wife is awesome she's a great mom
nice person we're good friends and it
was great I had half the time I had my
kids and I could focus on them and the
other half of the time they were with
the other person who loves them as much
as I do and I didn't have any of the
responsibilities of of kids and I could
just have you know all of the wonderful
fun that you can have when you don't
have you know the the responsibilities
that come with full-time caring for
children so
what would you say now on the flip
positive side we've been talking about
the collapse of things what about
success what's the secret to successful
romantic relationship
my mom used to say that it's hard to
Define intelligence but you could spot
stupid a mile away
yeah so I'm much better at at pointing
out where people fall apart because I
spend a lot of time with people
who have fallen apart in their
relationship
so it's easy to then say
well just don't do what they do
but I don't know that that's not an
oversimplification
um so again
I I think the answer is
connection I think the answer is
um affection
presence you know mindfulness and
presence I I do think
in my personal and professional
experience
that most people
want you fully
more than they just want you in a
disconnected way so if you were to say
to your romantic partner
you can have me for two hours where I'm
giving you my undivided attention
and I'm really
joyful to be with you
or you can add me for eight hours where
I'm sort of half paying attention and I
kind of want to be someplace else for
part of the time there's just no choice
there it's so obvious so I think
presence is a big piece and I think that
um
I think
the the you the me and the we I think is
important
because I think in relationships
there's you and there's me
and we meet
and something magical happens you know
and we become we
and now there's you and there's me
there's we
and then the we gets bigger bigger and
bigger and isn't it great because it's
such a nice warm place
it gets so big but it gets so big that
you get small and me gets small because
we
and if any of us dares to ask well what
about you what about me no no the we
what you don't like the way you don't
want to be with the Wii like well no
it's not that
but
we only exist because there was you and
there was me and I really like you and
you really liked me and so we picked
each other out of lots of choices
and now this we is so fucking big like
it threatens to just consume all of it
you know and I I really think that
there's something there we have to look
at more honestly so we should not
consume everything but it at the same
time
not be small well the we is the you and
the me and if you if you mix it
so much that you and me loses it's it's
you know it's components that all that's
left is we like I don't think that
that's the way to do it I I just think
there's a the world pulls Us in that
direction like we we get told culturally
that well why aren't you going with this
person to that why would you do that by
yourself and and why why why like anyone
knows that there's joy in being away
from each other and there's joy being
reunited together so why why don't we
you know speak very honestly about that
you know it's very and I think some of
that's our own insecurity you know well
why don't you want to be with me 24
hours a day or am I wonderful or in a
delightful it's like oh wait what you
know well but also probably people are
either afraid or lazy in developing
their individual selves I mean still
it's slowly going out there in the world
by yourself and it's comforting in that
little Cocoon of we I mean it can also
be incredibly adventurous going out into
the World by yourself and then coming
back to the Wii with a full report yeah
you know coming back and saying like oh
my God guess what I saw guess what I did
oh maybe we have to go there together
now because all I could think about was
you yeah you know while I was there I
was like oh my God she would love this
you know like that's magical that's
amazing like like I look what I brought
you back you know I went into this and
then I got you this present from there
like there's something you know and we
know this you know I I always thought it
was you know like when you watch the old
westerns you know or like the you know
the heroes leaving you know and he's
walking away from the cabin because he's
gonna go fight the gun fight and she
runs up and she goes please don't go
don't go stay here with me and he like
kisses there and then he goes yeah you
know if he goes like yeah you're right
I'll just stay here it's cool you know
like this is I didn't want to deal with
that anyway like he's not the hero
anymore though yeah
yeah that's deep truth to that uh and
then probably like you mentioned sex
is probably a big part of it friendship
that seems to me like a really important
one depends on how you define friend
like I I you know I if if being a friend
means we have some connection to each
other and we have each other's cell
phone numbers okay then we're friends
but if it's a bigger definition than
that if it's like you've picked me up at
the airport you know or like I you know
you're someone I could call that it's
like dude I gotta hide a body like you
get Shovel and lime I like how you
escalated from airport pickups to murder
yeah well I have to tell you I I Define
you know the Ben Affleck movie The Town
you know that scene that's friendship to
me I mean to me the ideal male
friendship is the scene where he says I
need you to come with me we're going to
hurt some people and you never have to
ask me about it again oh yeah and he
says whose car are we taking yeah and
that's sort of like to me that's
friendship so it's all it's a high bar
you know to be like a friend so when you
say like friendship I I think that's the
kind of friendship you should ideally
have with your romantic partner if
you're getting married it should be the
like whose car are we taking like it
should be that it's you and me to be
fair that bar has reached with me with
with a lot of people yeah like if you
call me tomorrow there's a body but
you're a big open you're a big open
heart but it's true like I
wonder how many people out there are
like that in terms of hiding the body I
mean my theory on this
because I think I'm like you
in that way I think I think I
I'm very sensitive
I feel things really deeply you know
and I think it's it's that's a tariff
the world is terrifying when you feel
things very deeply because there's so
much pain there's so much betrayal
there's so many opportunities to be hurt
you know
and
I think when you are that kind of person
you go through like stages and one of
them is that I don't care I don't feel
anything it doesn't matter I don't feel
anything I don't feel anything I don't
feel anything like you try to convince
yourself I don't feel anything it's fine
I don't feel anything
and then at some point like you know you
you do feel all of it and then it's like
oh my God the weight of this is crazy I
think it's the whole Arc of Pink Floyd
The Wall it's literally the entire Arc
of Pink Floyd The Wall you know and and
the song stop you know where I want to
go home take off this uniform and leave
the show like you just when you feel all
of it the army of hammers
coming at you the slings and arrows of
Outrageous Fortune you know a thousand
natural shocks the flesh is there too
when you feel all of that deeply
you know
it's very hard but but it can also be a
superpower because I think when you can
bring that to a relationship when you
can bring that to a profession like
you've done and I've done
then you there's something very magical
about that the ability to to to bring it
out in someone to feel it in yourself to
understand it you know is is a gift it's
a wonderful wonderful I'm humbled by
what it brought me professionally and
I'd like to think that you and I have
both found
professions
that enable us to use that sensitivity
that empathy
in a in a productive and good way and in
a fulfilling or personally fulfilling
way and ideally in a way that does does
good for other people
you yourself are incredibly successful
in high performer you've dealt with a
lot of CEOs and just High performers in
all walks of life what can you say
about successful relationships with
those kinds of folks
that's a good question I think um is it
all the same stuff or there's something
special when they're busier
well
you know I I think when you represent
High net worth individuals but also High
performing I would make a distinction
between High net worth and high
performing so I I've done High net worth
divorces where the person's like a trust
fund kid even though they're an adult
you know but they're like they're what
they did to achieve their High net worth
status is their great grandfather died
sure you know so that is different than
someone who is self-made
who through discipline Focus
entrepreneurship you know whatever it
might be
um that that they have found success and
there's also difference between
financial success
and fame
because I've represented famous people
that actually did not have that much
money in this game of things or much
liquidity
I mean I've represented people that that
were not in any way famous and were very
high performing in their field like in
New York we have a lot of Finance people
so and what I find is
um their divorces are challenging
one on a technical level because
figuring out what they have and how to
divide it is tricky sure yeah because
when something's moving that quickly
like when you're when your portfolio's
movement you know affects a market you
know that's that's challenging you know
Jeff Bezos divorce
for a time when it was in its early
stages
could affect Amazon stock it did you
know so that's a that's a real thing you
know there are there are businesses that
are affected by a divorce
but
in terms of of being in a relationship
with someone who
um who is a high performing person
you know most of the high performing
people I know are creatures of
discipline
and routine
you know from from uh Joe Rogan you know
we've talked about you know any of these
people like they have a routine they
have a discipline they have a focus they
have a way they like to do things they
have a type of coffee they like to drink
they have a way that they like to do and
and divorce is a tremendous disruption
I mean divorce is fundamental things in
your life or shifted out of your control
like your spouse may be the one who has
decided you are no longer going to live
in that house you will no longer see
your children on these days so to take
that control away from someone is very
very hard I mean when someone is a high
performing High net worth person they
are used to being told yes
they are used to being able to buy their
way out of a problem but just like
illness
you know I you can get you can hire the
best doctor but you can't cure cancer
because you have a lot of money like you
can hire the best lawyer but you can't
cure a custody case you know and that's
I mean Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt's
seemingly endless custody disputes that
have been going on for years now with
the best lawyers in California working
on them is proof of the fact that you
can't just buy a resolution to those
things you know that you have to go
through it just like everyone else
so that lets me ask the question how
much does a divorce usually cost
it's a great question average divorce I
mean it's sort of like a what I always
tell clients in the first consultation
is I tell them the most reasonable
question a person could ask me sitting
in that chair across from me is too how
long is this going to take and how much
is it going to cost and those are two
questions I can't answer yeah and then
the next thing they say is give me a
Range
which is a bit like calling your doctor
and saying I have a headache
what is it
well I can't tell you I'd have to do
tests
give me a Range
okay
it's a reaction to the barometric
pressure and it'll be gone in 15 minutes
or it's a brain aneurysm and you'll be
dead in five minutes there's your range
and so it didn't really help right so I
I
have the least expensive divorce I've
ever seen
is two people who who one of whom comes
into my office and says we've written
down on a yellow pad what we figured out
at the kitchen table she's going to keep
the house I'm going to keep the 401K we
have a bank account at this Bank we're
going to split that 50 50. I'm going to
pay her this much in child support each
month and we're gonna agree from time to
time on what we're going to do in terms
of the schedule with the kids but
they're primarily going to live with her
can you write this up and make it
legally binding
yes 3 500 bucks just as a side note of I
have a friend who went through a divorce
and uh handled it just masterfully by
giving more than he's supposed to and
having nothing but love in his heart
and happiness with the kids and just
like
I don't know that to me is just an
inspiration like not like his whole view
was like who cares about money like well
yeah and also like
he refused
like with every author of his being to
have anything but complete love for the
other person yeah I've had clients who
with a straight face will say to me like
well I'm not going to quibble over a few
million dollars
and they mean it because to them it's
numbers on a page
so I'll personalize this a bit so
I I have a friendly relationship with my
ex-wife who's the mother of my sons who
are adults
we have maintained a very good
relationship and so now it's many years
divorced later 17 18 years later
and we were able to sort of post game
that relationship even our co-parenting
relationship you know we kind of post
game it when we chat with each other and
I remember once saying to her you know
yeah you never
you know you never like screwed around
with me when it came to the kids like
you were always so like cool you know
like like if I called you like if I was
having a really bad day at work
and uh or like seeing just an ugly
custody case and like it just felt like
I would call her and say like hey can I
just pick the boys up and like take them
out for ice cream or something tonight I
know it's not my night but would you
mind if I just like took them out for a
couple hours she'd be like yeah sure
come on by yeah she was always flexible
like that
and I said to her like was that just
Goodwill like you're just a good person
or like what was that about and she was
like yeah it was partly that but she was
like it was partly that like you never
screwed around with me when it came to
money like if the kids needed something
or if I needed something as the mother
of the kids like you were always like
yeah sure of course like I heard
conditioning kicked out and she needed
to replace it and she didn't have like
liquidity I mean I didn't have a lot of
money at the time because it was a long
time ago and I was like all right no no
because I don't want you hot and upset
and I don't want the boys you know to be
in like of course and so I I think yeah
when you
when you approach a conflict with like
it's very hard to argue with someone who
won't argue with you if the person
approaches the argument from the point
of view of like I'm not gonna argue with
you like I'm gonna absorb your
aggression I'm gonna
I'm going to just not meet it with that
I'm going to meet it with love I'm going
to meet it with positive it doesn't
always work because sometimes people are
so angry that they just are they're
Relentless yeah but I have to tell you
like the louder you get
the quieter I get the more you seem
irrational
you know and and that's
what I always try to bring that to court
proceedings like I always try to bring
to court like if I know my adversaries
coming in hard I'll come in quiet and
slow and deliberate
because I want the volume to be turned
up way too high over there and then it
looks like what it was your honor what's
their problem over there you know and I
think that I say this to clients
they got a four-year-old they're getting
divorced let's say
there's gonna be a wedding
in like 20 something years there's gonna
be a wedding
and
it's either going to be the wedding
where they got to put these people on
opposite sides of the room because if
they pass each other by The Shrimp Boat
they're going to kill each other or it's
the wedding where like you stand there
you take some pictures you kind of go
like yeah we fucked up this whole
marriage thing but man we did a good job
with this kid did we you know and the
decisions you make right now
there's a straight line to that wedding
and so even if you don't like this
person even if you're mad at them even
if you're mad at yourself for the
choices you made in choosing them as a
co-parent like like every single
Mother's Day for 27 years
I have told my now long time ex-wife
happy Mother's Day I'm so glad that we
had kids together I'm so glad you're the
mother of my kids
because they wouldn't be who they are if
it wasn't that they were part me in part
you and I'm so grateful for you and you
know I'm always cheering for you like
how hard is that how hard is that well
it's really hard for some people but I
don't understand why it's so hard for
some people I'll tell you I do find that
hard there's not a lot of things that I
kind of don't understand but that's one
that I kind of don't understand like I
put in
one of the one of the weird things I did
as a divorce lawyer
that caused like a little stir among my
colleagues for a few years
was some years ago like we all steal
from each other's work divorce lawyers
like we're like the matrimonial Mafia
like we all know each other we all deal
with each other over and over again
but we all have the same job and so we
we're the only people that really know
the unique stresses of that job so even
though we try to kill each other all day
it's like boxer like professional
fighters like yeah your job's to take
each other's head off but like nobody
knows what the two you went through like
the two of you yeah you know that's why
like I always get like I go like all
kinds of rubbery when I see after the
fight like the two people hug each other
yeah because I'm always like like yeah
because you know what they they relate
to each other better than anybody they
suffered they bled you know the
competitors they bled you know so I I
really think divorce lawyers we have
that same kind of relationship like we
we went through this stress you know on
opposite sides trying to take each other
apart and
I I find that you know
we we all steal from each other's
material when it comes to separation
agreements Provisions that we use for
agreements like all the Agreements are
like these Frankenstein Monsters of oh I
like his estate planning provision so I
like her you know Provisions related to
maintaining a life insurance policy to
secure the alimony award
and I wrote this paragraph for this
select this section
because what what occurred to me is that
when you have a child with someone and
let's say they're three
4 5. they're old enough to know what
Christmas is
but they're not old enough to go buy a
Christmas present
but they're old enough to know that you
get presents on Christmas and you give
presents on Christmas
but they're not old enough to buy one
for the parent
so someone has to do that for them
so I thought
I'm going to put in a provision that
says that as long as the children are
so young that they can't independently
purchase a Mother's Day or a birthday
present for the co-parent that you'll
take the children either to buy a small
gift or to make a card something like
that
this struck me as a no-brainer who could
disagree with this
like
it's not for the person it's for the kid
it's so the kid happy birthday Mom I
don't have a present for you I don't
have a card for you because I'm fucking
five yeah like I'm five like like you
you can't go do that so wouldn't you
want your child not your co-parent who
cares you maybe you want them to have
the worst birthday ever fine but you
don't want your child to be embarrassed
and I even put in the provision
the parties acknowledge that it is the
intention of this provision to ensure
that the child is not embarrassed and
feels you know that they were able to
say I cannot tell you how many people
refuse to sign that how many lawyers
said to me we're taking that out
and I went wait why well why does my
client have to buy a present for your
client I said they're not buying a
present for my client they're buying a
present for the child to give to my
client it can be one of those little
three dollar boxes of chocolates they
sell at the drugstore like it's a kid
they don't know they don't know what
anything is and people nope and I have
to tell you of the conundrums of the
puzzles that I can't figure out in
existence
that's when I can't figure I do not
understand why that's so hard that's
basically just an illustration of their
complete inability to do anything nice
for the other person right the level of
hatred the level of vitriol that they
like maybe this is me I'm if you
apologize
there's I there's not a lot I won't
forgive like I'm not saying I I'll
forget it I'm not saying oh we're
totally good like it never happened I
understand that but if someone says what
I call a non-bullshit apology right like
a bullshit apologies oh I'm sorry you
got so upset when I did that like that's
a bullshit apology you know I'm sorry
that you were offended that's a bullshit
apology or I'm sorry for what I did
because we what are we talking about we
might not be talking about the same
thing or you might be saying I'm sorry
that you found out about that not that
you did it so a real apology is
I lied to you
and I realized that that hurt you and
I'm really sorry I shouldn't have done
that I regret that I did that and I know
that it hurt you and I'm really sorry
that's a real apology Okay so
someone's willing to give you that and
you still want to walk around with like
the level of vitriol that you will harm
your child rather than do something nice
for them I don't have a solution and I'd
say I see that all the time like
parental alienation is a thing it is a
thing like children can be weaponized
like I always tell people you want to
get married get married
get a prenup ideally but if you don't
have a prenup okay you're just risking
money don't worry you're just risking
money money and hassle
you know of paperwork and of time and of
going through an ugly Financial divorce
but you have a kid with somebody
you have you have that is a missile like
that person has a power over you
for a long time if not forever so the
child could be used as part of a
manipulation
oh routinely the secret weaponize
children all the time and they do it
they do it with the permission of their
own conscience because they they
genuinely believe I'm I'm gonna I'm
gonna protect this person this child
from this person who by the way is a bad
spouse
but that doesn't mean they were a bad
father or bad mother you can be bad at
being a spouse but the skill set of a
spouse and of a parent it's not
necessarily the same
and and I've seen you know people
people alienate children from a parent
in such subtle ways but they're so
powerful and as a lawyer you know it
doesn't matter what I know it matters
what I can prove
and and it's very hard to prove
alienation
because it's usually a very subtle
process and the example I always give to
people is it's a rare kind of crazy
person that will say to a seven-year-old
your dad is a bad person
but this
hello
here's your dad
you just said your dad's a bad person
you just did it with your eyes you did
it with your the expression on your face
when you handed the phone to the kid you
told that kid your dad's a bad person
you didn't have to say it out loud and
that that is something people are guilty
of all the time you know when when the
kid comes home and says
you know there's a divorced couple kid
comes home and says I met mom's new
boyfriend
and you go oh yeah that's nice remember
he's not your dad you know like whoa
like you just told that kid a whole
bunch of information about how he's
supposed to feel about this person
whereas if you go that's nice it's a
nice guy oh that's great I heard nice
things yeah I heard he's really he likes
bicycles that's cool that's really neat
like you just told this kid okay it's
okay you could like this person it's
okay to like this person it's okay that
your mom is with this person like and
again whatever you feel about your ex
your co-parent you usually you love your
kid more than you hate your ex ideally
also I wish people would even without an
apology forgive each other
because I
it goes back to the earlier discussion
we had like I I usually forgive people
if there's
something in them especially if we
shared something but even just if
there's something about them that's
beautiful
like it's great that they exist in the
world
so I'm just grateful for that and I use
that as the uh the fuel of forgiveness I
don't know to me like forgiveness is
very often it's for me you know like
when I let go of anger I feel lighter
you know I I I think my heart enjoys
peace I mean partly it's because I fight
for a living
you know I I work in the world of
conflict like I I jokingly used to say
to my sons when they were teenagers you
know like I can only argue if you've
paid like it's not fair to the paying
customers If I argue with you for free
that's not fair you know
but I think we're talking about the the
incredibly
wide range that a divorce can cost yeah
so so the cheat and you were saying the
cheapest one was the yellow yeah yellow
pad two people came to an agreement
write it up make it legally binding five
grand maybe you know tops but usually 3
500 five grand that kind of vibe most
expensive Millions
millions of in Council fees and that's
because of the duration the complex the
duration the complexity of issues like I
have clients who've paid two three
million in Council fees to me so it's
like acid to custody or like what well
it can be complex custody that requires
a hearing that requires expert testimony
dueling mental health professionals
opining on the parenting
um it can be a situation where emergency
circumstances occur like where an
individual tries to abscond to another
country with the children and you have
to bring them back under the Hague
convention
on International child abduction oh wow
yeah we've done some Hague cases
um
you know there there are cases where
people have have
very different facts like before I came
here today a client of mines
soon to be ex-husband who she's in the
middle of it where he tested positive
for cocaine
on a hair follicle test where it was
said he was definitely not going to test
positive and he tested positive so it
was like we were scurrying now with okay
we gotta get a motion filed we got to
suspend access we gotta protect the kids
we gotta get in front of a judge we got
to think about what are the implications
of this because he was about to
transition to an unsupervised parenting
like this is the kind of stuff that can
can amp up
the amount of work the lawyer has to do
which then translates to money I mean I
get paid
for my time you know and the time of my
team you know I have attorneys and
paralegals who work for me so I when you
have a team of lawyers working on a case
you can burn
tens of thousands of dollars a day if
it's a big enough case there are also
very complex Financial cases you know
people move and hide money High net the
high net worth
space
is a different world like if if
an average person owns a home they own a
home in their name or their name with
their spouse
a high net worth person owns an LLC that
owns that home that LLC is owned by a
trust they are a beneficial interested
party in that trust like this is how
some of my clients who make
tens if not hundreds of millions of
dollars a year Pay Less in taxes than a
cop or a firefighter
because they they have structures and
the structures that were designed for
tax planning purposes then in a divorce
become very tricky to unwind and to
figure out wait no what is mine and what
is not you know
well then that takes us to the question
of prenups what's your view on prenups
prenuptial agreements it's not popular
to quote Kanye West but if you ain't no
chump Hollow we want prenup we want
prenup I mean that's what he had to say
meaning uh so it's a prenup is a good
idea prenup is an excellent idea prenup
is
um
a prenup is a contract between two
people that binds their respective
rights and obligations in the event of a
divorce when it comes to financial
issues that's all it is and it's a
there's there's a lot of reasons to have
them and there really aren't any reasons
not to have them other than the fact it
requires an uncomfortable conversation
so uh I mean there's a few questions
here first do they work legally in
general yes if they are crafted
correctly which is not that hard to do
for a lawyer to do I'm saying for a
lawyer to do because with the internet
everybody thinks why would I spend a
thousand dollars I can just Google
prenuptial agreement and I can get one
and then it'll be that is a bad idea
like it is it is like a will like if
you're going to have a document that
binds your rights at that level it's
worth like the most expensive prenup
I've ever done was like three grand
that's ridiculous that's not a lot of
money like so there's no reason you
wouldn't do it but people still people
will still I've had clients that have
hundreds of thousands of dollars and
they did their print up downloading
something from the internet and because
of some imperfection you know it doesn't
have the right what's called
acknowledgment which is the section
where the notary signs and it has to say
that it was duly sworn before this
person on this date and if it doesn't
have that it's invalid it's not binding
so there are weird technicalities but
yeah prenups are binding as long as
there's been some minimal asset
disclosure which is easily done in a
prenup and as long as there's not a
language deficiency meaning that the
person who is reading it understands
English to the level that they
understand what they're signing and if
they don't that at least they've they've
acknowledged in their native language
that there is some opportunity for this
to be translated for them yeah they're
binding they're they're they're
presumptively binding you know we live
thankfully in a culture where people are
allowed to enter into contracts about
money what uh like what are some prenups
that you've seen that can be
um
effective or what that people converge
towards
in terms of what does that agreement
look like because uh you know the
popular conception is when there's no
prenup
both sides get half
and that's generally true that both
sides get half
um equitable distribution which is what
the law is called it's the law of
equitable distribution it's not called
The Law of equal distribution for a
reason because it's Equitable not equal
now equal like Equitable is presumed to
be equal
but there are exceptions to that
presumption and that's where lawyers can
get into fun and or trouble depending on
how you view it it's where we make our
money we make our money
arguing that the fair result will not be
just a 50 50 split and so
um there's there's the very generic
standard prenup which is easy and I you
know that's I call that Yours Mine and
Ours like if it's in your name it's
yours whether it's an asset or a
liability
my name it's mine joint names we split
at 50 50. simple clean and you go in to
the marriage now knowing what the rules
are so if you get a bonus at work and
you put it in your soul name
then it's your separate property in the
event you divorce you go out and buy a
boat
and she doesn't support you buying the
boat but the boat you got a big loan on
this boat you're responsible for that
loan
so
I like that because I like people having
some control and I also like people
having to have discussions
well why are we putting that bonus just
in your bank account why wouldn't we put
it in the joint bank account we should
have that discussion while we're married
not when we're in a divorce lawyer's
office 10 years later because we should
be able to talk about those kinds of
things so
you know what's interesting about
prenups
is that that somehow people think
there's something like it takes away
from the romance of a marriage
but but I've said it before and I'll say
it again all marriages end they end in
death or divorce
so having life insurance or having a
will it doesn't mean you can't wait to
die it doesn't mean you're looking
forward to death it doesn't mean that
you're you're you're you're predicting
you know your demise sometime imminently
it just means that you know you're being
realistic and honest so when you marry
and I don't mean spiritually marrying
having a marriage ceremony I mean
legally marrying
you're making changes to your rights and
obligations under law that's what you're
doing like marriage from a legal
standpoint what we mean when we say I
got married
is a is a it's a state agency it's been
created by the state like this is a a
legal status that most people who are in
it know nothing about
they they just did the most legally
significant thing they're ever going to
do other than dying
and they have no idea
what rights and obligations it created
in them and the first time they're going
to get an education about it is in my
office that's crazy when they get
divorced that's crazy and so prenup is
an opportunity to learn something about
it at the start so first of all
whenever someone approaches me about
prenups and and that's like four or five
times a week probably depending on the
season right before wedding season we
get a lot like when's wedding season
well it used to just be the summer you
know say they say when you marry in June
you're a bride all your life that's from
some Rogers and Hammerstein musical
um now the fall is very big too people
love fall content fall weddings pretty
you know pictures and things yeah good
on the Ground full of content yeah all
right
weddings is for the gram I have to tell
you weddings is performative man see the
problem is though it's curated so you
it's here's us picking the cake it's not
here's us doing the prenup you know how
many you know how many people I've done
prenups for that I've watched on their
social media or them being interviewed
by Andy Cohen on Bravo and saying well
no we don't have a prenup yeah you do
yeah you do you do it's in my office
it's in a folder yeah
no that's beautiful but prenups are not
published any place they're not filed
with a court they're maintained by the
two people that signed it and they're
lawyers that's it so nobody has to admit
that they have a premium beautiful but
it's but there's a yes but there's a
certain problem with that in so far is a
lot of people have prenups and we need
to normalize prenups like there's no
reason not to normalize prenups there's
no reason not for for until some famous
people say yeah we have a prenup we're
crazy about each other that's why we're
getting married you know but yeah look
we're getting you know I don't want to
get a car accident but I got a seat belt
you know like you have it just in case
and uh
I mean what do you do if you're running
a company
like how what does that have to do with
the prenup you know you're running a 100
billion dollar or trillion dollar
company Jeff Bezos
I suppose his marriage was before Amazon
as was before it was anything but like
how does that work in a prenup like well
no actually it's it's the same I mean
what you're
what you're doing with the prenup is
you're identifying
you're identifying how things will be
classified in advance so you're creating
a set of rules
and then you both can function under
those rules during the marriage so like
I for a brief time I taught a a family
law drafting class at a law school
and when we would do separation
agreements and we would do pleadings you
know it was lots of fun when we would do
prenups I would say to the students you
know what's the main thing you need when
you're doing a prenup and they would say
well you know you need asset disclosure
and say well that's not the main thing
and they said well you need
um you know technical language I said
nope main thing you need is a crystal
ball
the main thing you need is the ability
to see what's going to happen in the
future who's going to have money who's
not who's going to be successful who
isn't what people will inherit problem
is we don't have that we don't have that
so what can we do we can create tranches
we can create structures we can create
systems
and then people can live with those in
mind you enter the game knowing the
rules right so
you know if this is going to be a
submission only event you know if this
is going to be no time limit you know if
we're after a certain number of minutes
we're going into points now okay so I
can work with that rule set and I'm
going to amend my game based on that
rule set
same thing same thing you're just gonna
say look what's the rule set let's agree
on the rule set and then let's conduct
ourselves with the rule set in mind
let's plan the rule set in mind
and I think that you know and by the way
and if you're gonna cheat you cheat with
the rule set in mind you know you're
cheating right you know you're trying to
get around the rule set
so prenups
are when I do a consult for a prenup the
first thing I do is here's what's going
to happen legally if you marry without a
prenup here's what happens to your
rights and obligations
then
what we can change with that there's
almost no limit you can you can amend
anything you want to the example I
always give is there was a case that
went up to the Appellate Court where
High net worth guy married a very
beautiful woman and there was a
provision in the prenuptial agreement
that said for every 10 pounds she gained
during the marriage she would lose ten
thousand dollars a month in alimony if
they divorced
and there was a here's a baseline weight
as of the time of execution of this
agreement and I wondered if she was like
a like did like what a wrestler does
like did she like you know yeah did she
like bulk up right before and then cut
when she eventually got divorced like is
she in there with sauna you know with
the suit on
um but but the and and the Appellate
Court essentially said
um I don't know why you married this
person having had them make you sign
this but it's binding yeah but it's
binding I wish somebody would do a
contract like that like like the rent
for this place would be more expensive
if I was fatter and cheaper if I was
skinnier and that way I would have to
weigh in
motivation like some motivation on you
yeah exactly that's that kind of prenup
is motivating well what's his name I
think Tim Ferriss says that about how he
does like um
he said you should make Bets with people
like it's like if you gain this much I
got to give you this amount of money you
know Nick says that in one of his early
books and trying to make it binding
somehow which is tough yeah I think when
we create incentives of that kind you
know that's why like there was like the
no not November or No Shave November you
know sober like all this yeah it was a
competition when people make a
competition of something they gamify
something it you know makes it something
that people are more likely to stick
with so I mean I guess the prenup be
interesting there you know the problem
is there there's also
people put in prenups what's called
Fidelity Clauses uh oh yeah yeah it was
yeah Fidelity Clauses and people still
do these I discourage people from doing
them they're the two things that people
put in prenups that I discourage people
from putting in prenups but very often
people still put in prenups even with my
caveat is Fidelity Clauses and sunset
clauses
so Fidelity Clauses is
um I'm waving alimony I'm waving this
I'm waving that but if you cheat
I get a million bucks or I get this much
alimony or I get this amount and I know
the intention is to disincentivize the
person from cheating it's a deterrent to
have them cheat but all it really does
is just creates like an interesting
legal battle for lawyers like how did
you prove that they cheated or not all
right because uh what what yeah what
constitutes cheating also right right is
an emotional affair and Affair is oral
sex cheating is you know like what what
is and by the way how do you prove it
yeah like well I was in a hotel with her
but how do you prove that I had sex with
her you know like and it's it's very
very
um you're opening a can of worms with
that kind of a thing but people
sometimes still put them in
um and sunset Clauses Sunset Clauses is
if we're married X period of time this
goes away as if it never existed and why
is that a bad idea the same reason the
community property law in California is
a bad idea so the community property law
is after a certain number of years I
think it's seven
everything including your pre-marital
property all becomes marital property
and the idea of that was supposed to be
that if you've been married that number
of years like you're in enough of a
serious relationship now that everything
is one unit you're one person what it
actually does is creates a very
uncomfortable thought experiment that
people have to have at the six year mark
because you have to now the honeymoon's
kind of over you might have a kid or two
and you go okay wait a minute am I so
happy in this relationship
that I'm willing to take all of my
pre-marital assets and throw them in the
pot right now because if not I got six
months to get divorced yeah like and
that's not so like if you say to someone
like if you got married tomorrow
and then you found the company that's
worth a hundred million dollars
and under your prenup that's your
separate property
but there's a sunset Clause that says
that your prenup goes out the window in
15 years man at year 14 and six months
you got to ask yourself some serious
questions about where's this
relationship going to be in 5-10 years
it's brilliant and that's why kids you
pay for a lawyer that's it we get paid
to see around corners you know I get
paid to be paranoid I tell people that
all the time okay so you mentioned
infidelity you write in the book which
everybody should get it's a great book
it's a great read it's a window into
your soul you uh in this book right that
there's five kinds of infidelity do you
remember can you explain
um yeah I mean what I wanted to say is
that all infidelity is not the same that
there's different kinds and some of them
are more obvious than others like
there's the the soul mate you know
that's the one I think I see most often
which is a person meets another person
or rekindles
on social media or elsewhere a
reconnection with another person in
their life and they go oh my God this is
the person I'm supposed to be with I'm
in love the heart wants what the heart
wants like I'm I'm leaving you for this
person because I have found my true love
that's one type and it's an incredibly
common type
and there's a you know there are plenty
of cautionary tales associated with that
where people thought that they found
their someone and then it turns out it
was you know no it was just unfair you
know
um and and you know a man who leaves his
wife for his mistress just leaves a new
job opportunity open and we should also
mention that you uh you know talk about
Facebook and Instagram oh yes if we were
going to invent a infidelity generating
machine it would be called Facebook
which by the way is a function of the
fact the book was written in 2019. I
would now change it to Instagram oh
because you said just Facebook yes but
now if I had to rewrite it it would be
if we were going to invent an infidelity
generating machine it would be called
meta that would be yeah there you go
yeah very Tech forward it's a was a
function of what Facebook and I think
Instagram also are which is it is a
communication tool that has people
looking into windows that I think are
antagonistic to marriage you're looking
into the lives of other people you're
looking into
um these social lives of people that you
meet casually so there was a time where
you would be at your son's soccer
practice and see the attractive mom
across the way
and you wouldn't really talk to her
interact with her if you did it would
just be at practice
but now
we add on social media those people
because for legitimate reasons we need
to maybe communicate about when practice
is or we want to message the person but
now it's sort of an invitation to a
connection
and then it's you know there's a picture
of her on vacation in a bikini that's
very intriguing and then you have a
benign oh I saw you guys want a vacation
where did you stay you know oh was it
good did you like that oh that's tonight
and now we're talking and now we're
having an interaction and now this is
how the spark of Affairs begins it's
usually people don't usually meet and go
would you like to potentially wreck your
marriage yes would you oh my god let's
do this yeah like it's much more you
know it slowly happened so when I talk
about types of infidelity
the soulmate the unexpected soul mate
you know this connection that you didn't
expect I didn't expect to fall in love
with this person but I did in the heart
wants with the heart wants and I'm sorry
that one's tough that one's tough
because
you know it's an interesting distinction
between men and women to some degree
that
when a man finds out his wife was
cheating the question is did you fuck
him
and when a woman finds out that a man
cheated the question is do you love her
you know and those are those are
different things you know I feel like
there could be many and have been many
books written on that yeah by much
smarter people than me yeah but but
um I I think that
the soulmate thing
is very very painful for a lot of my
female clients when a man says listen I
found the one I found the one and it's
not you
um that that is really really hard to
get past
um
even when it turned out to be true I
mean I've seen some people that you know
it was an affair that turned into 20
plus year marriages you know so I I an
unhappy marriage and then a happy Affair
that turned into a very happy marriage
like I've not seen there's not a formula
you know like I've I've been doing it
long enough now that I've seen
permutations I never would have expected
um so that's one one type of infidelity
um the other is what I call the push out
of the closet which is is and that I
think happened more often earlier in my
career there have been tremendous
strides I think in in the the lesbian
and gay community
um where including marriage equality
obviously where there's a lot of change
as to people accepting people as being
gay or lesbian
um and I think that there was a time
where you know
people were having being in the closet
was much more important you were subject
to professional scorn and you know all
kinds of things if you were gay or
lesbian so people were sneaking around
and having affairs with their same-sex
partners and then they get caught and
then you know it really was a function
of the of the of the um the fact that
they were closeted and again that's
another kind of complicated dynamic
because
you know I I haven't had that happen to
me where a woman left me for a woman
but I'd like to think it would be easier
for me yeah because if you left me for a
man
you're saying I want one like you but
better than you whereas if you leave me
for a woman
well that's a whole different set of
equipment I don't have that yeah so like
I can't like okay like it's not me it's
you it's something you want that I can't
offer it's I don't we don't serve that
at this restaurant so you know it's okay
like yeah I get it I mean there's a
betrayal there's a sadness whatever but
yeah you know it's a different thing
um
the the saddest
type of infidelity in my opinion is the
mistake
which is someone just makes a mistake
they they just people do dumb shit when
it comes to sex like people just
in a moment
you know they sub they follow temptation
their impulse control is poor you know
and they they do something that they
that doesn't reflect their morality or
doesn't reflect the depth of their
feelings like if you spend enough time
in a room with people who've cheated
in a relationship and are speaking
candidly to you about it because you're
their lawyer
they'll say to you very openly like no I
really love my wife I really love my
wife like I just I don't know I was just
an idiot like I just you know I saw this
bright shiny object and I went for it I
really wanted to sleep with that woman
like I I wanted to I wanted to fuck her
I love my wife I make love to my wife I
love my wife but I just want to sleep
with this one you know and we created a
culture where
one of those eradicates the other
I don't that's a whole nother discussion
is you know or is there ethical
non-monogamy like should we is marriage
about who I have sex with
or is marriage a different kind of a
partnership is it of is it a pair bond
that's about building a life together
you know and where does monogamy fit
into that and people like us they're
perel and they're they're those are
people who are making very intelligent
discussions about that you know yeah
that's a complicated one just to
actually just Linger on that I view how
often have people with
open marriages have been in your office
well let's see and this is one of those
like
from a research perspective this would
be flawed because I see the they're in
my office because their marriage is
falling apart yeah so there may be lots
of people
having open relationships that don't end
up in a divorce lawyer's office so I'd
never meet them but I meet a lot of
people that that was the Hail Mary pass
sure like I meet a lot of people that
they tried that but it in retrospect it
was a Hail Mary pass it was like uh look
we've just figured let's try this you
know like maybe it's maybe this will
this will keep the glue together on this
thing you know and and
um and I've also seen open open
relationships go wrong
you know where we agree we're just going
to have sexual connections with other
people or we're going to bring other
people into the bedroom
um but together like we're going to be
together with other people or with
another person and then that that
connection of those two people
like do you think it's a soul mate all
of a sudden now and it goes in this
other because and again is that novelty
is that like it's the reason why I don't
understand why people have threesomes
it's kind of like
you know when someone sings to you I
don't know where to look
like I don't know where to look like if
someone's singing to me I don't know
where to look like it feels weird right
like this is a conundrum no this
I'll say this to this they'll never but
I it's the reason I can't go to strip
clubs yeah I don't know where to look
like if I go to strip club you know like
you go to strip club and and there's you
know the part where they the woman's on
the stage and she walks past each person
and does a little thing and then next
person and the next little thing
so when she's right in front of you
I like a woman's face and I like a
woman's body I like both of them so I'm
looking at the woman's face which is
very beautiful but she's naked and I
think oh she's naked I should be looking
at her naked body because obviously
that's like it's almost rude not to
because she's naked in front of me of
course so then I'm looking at her naked
body which is lovely to look at but then
I find myself going oh my God you're
just still like you should look at her
face for God's sakes yeah and then I
look at your face and and find myself
having this whole thing in my head where
I'm going like oh my God where am I
supposed to look so I think a threesome
with
two women you don't hardly know or
you're not that's different
but a threesome with a long-term partner
where you're in a relationship with and
a new person
seems to me a very dangerous ground
because you're going to want to enjoy
the novelty of this new person but
you're gonna have to spend time with
this person after
so how much attention do you spend to
the new novel exciting thing without
creating the impression that you don't
you're not interested in this because
you want you're my favorite person but
this is fun so I want to just try this
for a few but then also I don't want to
forget about that like it it just seems
tricky that analogy by the way is
brilliant and also I guess it's tricky
because the consequences of mistakes are
quite High because you're gonna have to
talk about it wait and there's a there's
an easy way to misinterpret the data
right like so if I'm
if I really like sleeping with my
partner but I get one chance to sleep
with this other person like well of
course I should indulge in that because
I can do this anytime like what it you
know but but this person my partner
might interpret that as oh so you're
more interested in her than me because
that voice in in my partner that would
be you know insecure might hear that you
know so I I just why would you even why
would you open yourself up to that level
of chaos you seem to love chess in the
courtrooms it's a kind of uh intimate
human chess of sorts yeah no that's
that's too high risk how do we get on
threesomes oh open open marriages well
we got half we get on threesomes I don't
know I always wonder how people get into
threesomes
um I figure if they like if one is fun
two must be better if two is better
three must be better
um yeah I I think we we the way that
that this becomes an issue is
why would you have a non-monogamous
relationship
what is it about your sex life with this
person that's not satisfying and I think
that that is the question that's harder
to ask yourself and to try to answer
with your partner I mean you've said
that this idea of soul mates
great business is great for your
business but so like
human being
in a partnership can't be everything is
that true I think it's unrealistic it's
a True Romance right the uh the document
of
that we keep referencing here I think
it's wonderful if you do because
sometimes now people don't get that
reference anymore
like I talk to people in when I try to
teach negotiation to young lawyers who
come work for me I tell them to watch
the Gary Oldman scene
where he offers him the Chinese food
yeah why is that scene the one that
really because it's the best negotiating
lesson I've ever heard in my life where
where he comes in he's he he just called
the record yeah Gary Allman plays a pimp
yes and he owns his girl is Patricia
Arquette right and Christian Slater's
character the protagonist is coming in
to tell Gary Oldman that he no longer
owns this girl Alabama
is going to be with him now
and Gary Oldman is a a amazing
performance and he's sitting in a living
room with a shotgun next to him with
armed guys around him watching
television and eating Chinese food and
he's got Chinese food laid out in front
of him and Christian Slater comes in and
he says I need to talk to you about
Alabama
and Chris and Gary Allman says do you
want some Chinese food
and Krishna Slater sort of taken aback
by the question he says no I I came to
talk about Alabama she's with me now
she's there and he proceeds to tell him
what his offer essentially is and Gary
Oldman says you know you fucked up right
in some in substance he says you know if
you'd sat down and started eating my
Chinese food I would have thought
who's this guy he didn't have a care in
the world just sitting down eating my
egg foo young but instead you tried to
be hard and now I know you're full of
shit and so I think that scene
summarizes how in negotiation
the more you enter into it with that
like any time I deal with another lawyer
and they're like well we'll see you in
court okay
see in court like empty barrels make the
most noise like you and I as people
who've been in the Jiu Jitsu Community
or been I know some dangerous people I
know FBI SWAT people I know you know I
know people that are they know how to do
things to people and they're the calmest
guys you ever meet in your life you you
scuff their sneaker oh you don't worry
about a minute it's okay like they're
quick to apology like they're just chill
what uh what were we talking about
um we were talking about
um oh uh wait True Romance oh the
soulmate yeah yeah you're saying that
this idea like what would that film
underlying there's this current of like
they were made for each other yeah
I think there's a distinction
between the feeling that someone is your
missing puzzle piece that you're made
for this person I think what that just
means is there's a lot of overlapping
beautiful connections I love them
intellectually I love them sexually I
love them interpersonally we have some
shared history we have some shared
commonalities we were raised in the same
culture raised in the same religion like
we view we have politically similar
ideas like these are all or we have
totally opposite ones but they're
complementary like I've always joked
that like finding someone with
complementary pathologies
you know like I'm obsessively
disciplined so having a partner who's
like flexible and like spontaneous is
really good for me and and also me being
like no no come on come back we're gonna
do this now no no it's time to actually
do this now like we're good for each
other it's Barefoot in the Park you know
it's this idea of like you know the yin
and the Yang so
what I have an issue with is that the
definition of soulmate that I think is
sold to so many people now is this idea
that if your partner is disappointing to
you in any way meaning they're not the
perfect travel companion they're not the
perfect vocabulary companion they're not
the perfect roommate they're not the
perfect lover they're not like the odds
of someone being all of those
seems crazy to me like it's
infinitesimally small and they don't
have to be everything like I if I go to
a restaurant and eat 10 courses and one
of them is kind of subpar and the other
nine are the most amazing culinary
experience I've ever had
how dare I say well that wasn't that
wasn't the right restaurant no what do
you mean like that's a great restaurant
what are you talking about like of
course there's one little thing so I
think it's impossible
to have someone never disappoint you
it's impossible to have someone who
never lets you down or doesn't say and
do the exact right thing at the exact
right time and to create the idea or
expectation in anyone that your partner
should never let you down never
disappoint you never not know what to
say yeah is I think crazy I mean I I
find for myself
when someone for example loses someone
when someone loses a family member or
pet
I I often say the same thing to the
person I'll either talk to them or send
them a text or call them and I'll say
if I wish I knew the perfect thing to
say because I would say it right now
like but but I know there isn't like I
know that you know I don't say that part
but like I know there isn't like there
isn't a perfect thing to say like but if
there was a perfect thing to say I would
say it right now like love to me is not
that you never let this person down it's
that you never want to let this person
down you know it's Love Is A Verb you
know like it's this feeling of I I never
want to disappoint you I will disappoint
you
but I never want to disappoint you I I
will hurt you but I never want to hurt
you when I hurt you it will be my
insecurity my stupidity my Humanity that
causes me to hurt you but I will never
intentionally hurt you you know I will
betray your trust I'll never
intentionally betray your trust like I I
will by my stupidity say the wrong thing
or or loose lips say something to
someone that you didn't want me to but
it won't be intentional I will always
try to be on your team that feels to me
like a realistic thing yeah the
intention leads the way but there's some
aspect of
um like you know just like the 10 course
meal that over time there's a kind of
convergence
uh towards Perfection and along the way
there's the Rose Colored Glasses where
you see every the beauty and everything
so it's just it it feels
um it's probably destructive just to
really internalize the idea of soulmate
because then any imperfections can
can make you doubt it can make you step
away can make you lose the connection
but it just feels like uh I don't know
it's too heavy it just feels I I feel
like when you see a couple
if it's 90 years old
and they've been together for 60 years
70 years
there was of course a temptation to
think about all the beauty that they've
seen on that journey together the
children the grandchildren maybe the
great grandchildren all the joy that
they've seen all the pain they've
endured and struggled together you know
but they've also disappointed each other
a whole bunch of times probably let each
other down they probably lie to each
other a bunch and yeah and to me that is
a beautiful thing like that's what that
is not
it's great in spite of that it's great
because of that they still love each
other even though they've been so flawed
and imperfect and and they're human and
they still love each other they still
rode that thing together because the
reasons to do so were greater than the
reasons to not
we've mentioned some of this but I'd
love to get your opinion on having seen
things gone wrong how much and having
mentioned Amber Heard and Johnny Depp
how much fighting
do you think
is okay in a relationship
and how to resolve the fights such that
they don't escalate to that
disconnection is there some wisdom you
have for that I imagine you've seen some
epic fights yeah I you know it's very
I've seen some crazy fights I I have
even on my phone I I have uh some
recordings
because now there's you know cameras
everywhere it's like Nest cams and you
know ring cams and so a lot of this gets
recorded
and um and people you know have phones
so readily available that they can
record and the other person to know it
and I listen to the way people speak to
their first of all I listen the way
people speak to each other and I'm
shocked I listen to the way people speak
to their romantic partner to their
spouse and I'm I'm blown away like I'm
Blown Away disrespect or what just
disrespect insults profanity just
degradation just brutality just just and
then like to then kind of go on like the
next day you kind of go on like nothing
happened I I don't I'm shocked by it I
mean I I listen to it and I think like
if someone ever spoke to me that way I
don't know that
I could ever really feel deep connection
to them like freely I I would feel so
betrayed like that they just so brutal
like I can't imagine speaking to someone
that way like it's saying you you just
did such vicious insults to someone you
know like I but I I understand that's
how some people communicate perhaps I
guess the the question of how much
fighting
is too much fighting in the relationship
is for me a bit like the question how
much sex is enough sex in the
relationship yeah it it depends on the
two people and their individual tastes
but what's
problematic is when there is a
disconnect between the two people
like so if
you know there's a I think it's Annie
Hall it's one of the Woody Allen films
where Diane Keaton and Woody Allen are
both talking to their respective
therapists about the relationship
you know but it's like a split screen
yeah
and she says I mean we have sex all the
time we have sex like once a week yeah
and he goes we never have sex we have
sex like once a week
and you know it's funny because it's
true it really is this you know they
both know the same data but they're
interpreting that data set completely
differently and I I think it you know
the question you have to start asking is
like what is you know Steve Harvey
actually once said something funny to me
said that success is not where you are
success is where you are in relation to
where you started
yeah he says because if success is where
you are Oprah's got us all beat yeah or
maybe elon's got a salty yeah I don't
know but if it's where you are versus
where you started because there's a lot
of people that started on second and you
know start on third act like they hit a
double you know like well I was given 10
million but then I turned it into 100
million wow the first million is the
hardest so you know come on but I I
think the question of like how much sex
were we having
at the beginning of the relationship
that might be the wrong gauge because
that's like we couldn't keep our hands
off each other and we just it's novelty
but you know like how far how much sex
we're having post children versus before
the children that might be worth looking
at you know like how do we compare it
you know like am I overweight compared
to what when I was 20 and running
marathons or most 50 year old men I
don't know I gotta I gotta like what do
you compare it to so I think fighting
there are some people that I think they
enjoy fighting
like they enjoy argument you know I know
people that enjoy political debate I
don't particularly enjoy political
debate not that I'm not very interested
in political Concepts economic Concepts
I just I argue for a living so in my
free time I don't find argument that
enjoyable when it's intense
um I find discussion more interesting so
interesting they use you just keep the
battle
to that particular to your main
profession and everywhere else you want
peace well did you ever you know Bob Bob
Goldthwaite Bobcat Goldthwaite the
comedian very very funny and he had all
second chapters like a director and a
writer but he has this you know I saw an
interview with him once where he said
you know yeah he says like I'm a
comedian I've been a comedian a long
time people always come up to me and
they're like oh you're a comedian do you
want to hear a joke he's like and all I
can think is oh yeah that'd be a real
fucking treat yeah like I haven't heard
jokes all day all night for years that
would be a real special occasion yes
like I I get it you know uh yeah and I
mean a sadder story I've been reading
quite a bit about Robin Williams and his
wife would talk about how quiet and
introspective and thoughtful and
intellectual he was and not really that
humorous in his private life but but
that may be a function of
um
you know that it is enjoyable to be the
other thing yeah you know one of the
things I've always thought was very
um funny in relationships
my own relationships is most women I
know
who have a husband who doesn't wear a
suit every day for a living
um when their husband gets dressed up
like they're going to a wedding or
something they get like oh my God look
at like look at him you know
um and I wear a suit every day you know
on the weekends I don't I wear like
jeans and a black T-shirt but the rest
of the time I wear a suit and I remember
I I think this has been true in every
relationship I've been in since I was a
lawyer including Mike's wife it was
always like if I had on jeans and I
wasn't shaven it was like look at you
you're like yeah it's like
are you kidding me you're like like I'm
like really like whereas the suit they
wouldn't even notice wouldn't even
notice the suit sometimes the other
thing well that's what it is it's the
novelty of the other thing so I think
that if if you're Robin Williams and
you're like being shot out of a cannon
in terms of your performative style and
your energy and explosive yeah being
quiet must be very refreshing like I
imagine you know incredibly intelligent
people must love just watching Stupid
humor or having a dumbed it's why some
of the smartest people I know like
really dumb shit you know it's why like
Rick and Morty I think is brilliant
because it's both smart and dumb yeah
it's a perfect combination it really is
yeah it's I think it's possibly the
perfect show
is there advice you can give to somebody
like me on how to interview well
how to do conversations well
is there do you think there's something
transferable from the courtroom
to this setting with complicated people
yeah I think so I think what can be
learned about interviewing is
um
the distillation like what what what is
most important when I hear a story that
I have to present to a judge the
totality of someone's parenting the good
of their parenting the bad of their
parenting the good of the other parent
the bad of the other parent
I have to sort of boil down what are the
best examples because I can't lay it all
out
and then what what greater principle do
they
speak to
you know the best Jiu Jitsu teacher that
I think I've had is Paul Schreiner and
Paul doesn't teach just teach you
techniques
he's teaching you ways of thinking about
Concepts in Jiu Jitsu and then here are
some techniques that illustrate that
John Donahue from what I can see does a
lot of that as well I think they're like
soul mates in the Jiu Jitsu world yeah
and then there's that element that you
spoke to which is
maybe considering the other side always
doubles advocated kind of thing yeah I
mean straw man Steel Man stuff you do
you do a lot of that and I think all the
best interviewers do but yeah I think
it's really really important to think
about you you I have to know the other
side's case much better than my own
you know I have to know what are their
defenses what are their strengths I have
to to map out a strategy that keeps
those in mind and that's hard because
early in my career
I would attribute
to the other side
and intelligence and strategy that
sometimes wasn't applicable like I've
learned like
you know there's like the simplest
explanation is the accurate one you know
the Occam's razor
I think like Sexton's you know would be
never a tribute to strategy that which
could be attributed to stupidity for
laziness yeah because I have lots of
adversaries that like they'll not file
emotion I thought they were going to
file and I'll go wait why didn't they
file that like tactically what are they
thinking I'm gonna do and what what is
that about you know and I would go well
if I didn't file it why wouldn't I and
the answer is like they just didn't
think to file it or like they were too
lazy to draft it or they went on
vacation last week so that's why they
didn't and I'm
you know driving myself crazy going
there's some tactical read there must be
so I think you have to
um look honestly and don't attribute to
the other side your Constitution you
know if I said that I'd be saying it
sarcastically if you said it maybe you
weren't saying it sarcastically like you
have to think about the fact that we're
we're unique human beings who Express
themselves differently and for you the
audience is usually the judge yeah no we
don't do jury trials that's the
interesting thing about Family Law
Attorneys Family Law Attorneys don't do
jury trials we do bench trials we just
persuade there's a person in the black
rope that's the only person I have to
convince does the person of the black
hole do they have emotions are they
human are they very they are human they
are all too human do they impose that
Humanity on you like do you steal it oh
yeah oh yeah oh no they do you feel it
like they're human they're working their
shit out okay they're parents yeah their
husbands and wives yeah you're you're
and you're talking about stuff they deal
with yeah I had a I had a woman on this
Stan an expert witness on the stand
who was talking about the the emotional
and physical abuse that was perpetrated
on a seven-year-old
and I this person had written
a bunch of reports that were in evidence
in this trial around like day six or
seven in the trial
and there's all of this information in
the record about this verbal abuse and
mental abuse and like gaslighting and
like really intense stuff that this
woman was doing to this seven-year-old
and the judge is like vaguely paying
attention for most of the time
and at some point the person says well
when a parent is abusing a child and the
judge just interrupts she goes well you
know do you think like if a person
spanks a child if that's abuse
she's like well I I'd like a person in
general like and by the way if my
adversary asked that question I could
object but I can't object when the judge
asks a question they get to rule on that
objection so I'm like uh where's this
going she's like well no I mean I mean
spanking can be a form of abuse right
but like you know are you saying like
everybody who spanks and I'm sitting
here going on in your house yeah so what
went on with your parents like because
you're you're bringing some stuff here
that's not this is not what you're
supposed to be this is not your role you
know but there are good judges and bad
judges and and that's a big big deal
well I've noticed that
no I don't have kids so I have
a certain perspective on the world I
really want to have a family and have
kids but I've noticed when I talk to
people that have kids
and gender matters also like fathers or
who like with uh with daughters and so
on
like it changes the landscape of the
conversation it sure does it's like
you're no longer this intellectual
that's like wow there's this and there's
this it's it's more like
like go fuck yourself anything that
fucks with
uh kids yeah can can like Burn It To The
Ground I don't care yeah I don't care
what the Nuance is of the little
intellectual thing oh you want to learn
about this represent someone as accused
of child sexual abuse
I've had about a dozen of those cases
where I've represented someone who's
alleged to have perpetrated sexual abuse
of a child you are guilty until proven
innocent and let me tell you as a lawyer
that is the toughest cases because you
put sex and kids together and everyone
loses their goddamn mind immediately
there's a rush to judgment there is a
disregard for procedure there is a
confirmation bias there's a desire to be
a protector and again all motivated and
informed by really good things that
desire to protect the innocent the
desire to protect the vulnerable but but
gang no like we have these I like living
in a world that has due process
I like these rules I like the Rules of
Evidence I like innocent until proven
guilty I like that
I'm not saying it's perfect it's such a
I'm so torn on it because I also like
living in a world where people are so
emotionally
invested
in um
in connection to other like that's those
two things aren't mutually exclusive
they shouldn't be I I know but if you
dedicate yourself fully to the law you
might lose some of the humanity I don't
think you have to I have to tell you I
once actually went off on a on a D.A on
a district attorney who was very
vehemently Prosecuting a child sex abuse
case that I was involved in
and I remember I I it was I came in
thankfully I came in very early in the
case so the accusation was made and I
came in right away because very often
you get this case there have been 15
interviews this person's been
interviewed by police by child
protective services and it's like
they've already they're already so far
down a hole they didn't even know they
dug themselves into you know so I got in
very early on and I just kept saying
she's like well we're gonna do this
we're gonna do this I was like wait wait
wait wait wait wait don't we should both
want this to be fair done properly like
we there's an expert again a
well-respected expert who's a clinical
psychologist who their job is their
validation expert so their job is to
interview a child they record the
interviews with a hidden camera so that
everyone can see they didn't ask
suggestive questioning they're a very
stringent standards that they follow to
prevent like suggestive questioning or
any of those kinds of things and I was
saying listen no no one should be
interviewing this child other than this
person who's a neutral qualified person
and I kept saying to the other side like
wait no no you're see this is the
problem like you want to win you're a
lawyer you want to win I want to win too
right but but but we want to win fair
like that's like saying you know I'm
going into a boxing match I want to win
so if the referee's looking to the side
I'm going to kick the guy in the nuts
like okay then then you might have won
but you didn't win boxing
you want some other thing
you know like I want to win a fair fight
like I want to go in with the rules set
the law The Rules of Evidence I don't
want a judge who doesn't understand
evidence I don't want an adversary who
plays it fast and loose with the rules I
want to go in and win a fair fight and
and that's where when it comes our our
passion to protect the innocent to
emotionally connect to feel deeply about
children and protecting them I don't
think that that's antagonistic to like
we we always treat dandruff with
decapitation in this culture and I don't
understand it and that's what I like
about the law the law there's rules
there's and there's rules about
procedure
and so that's that's our job is to bring
out the truth using the rules and the
procedure and I I love that job but
still there's a human being in the judge
right that's the problem it seems like a
really hard job because you have to be
paying attention to the whole thing you
have to pay attention the whole thing
and everyone is trying to persuade you
and lie to you yeah and and and and
everyone can keep their shit together in
a court appearance most of the time yeah
like it takes a rare kind of crazy to
blow up in a courtroom so most of the
time everybody looks really put together
and like yeah you gotta have an amazing
bullshit that sector I'm not saying they
don't have a really hard job they have a
really hard job they're a way harder job
than I have what's their uh source of
ground truth like how do they sharpen
the radar for bullshit
I think that there
credibility which is what you call it in
the law is something that you know I I
think you're supposed to develop it on
the job
you know do you have the data of who was
lying in the end or not no not really
not really I mean you can try to
demonstrate a lot what I always tell
clients and this is this is the art of
advocacy right is is
I want to use examples of
misrepresentations to show that this
person's a liar like I'm trying to
extrapolate from the small the large
like I'm trying to say here's three
times he lied therefore he's a liar
when in fact you know we know human
beings don't really work that way but
I've seen people submarine there could
just torpedo their entire case because
they lied about some dumb shit some dumb
little thing and and I I I say to them
why would you lie why did you lie about
that
like I had a case where a person was
accused of child sexual abuse
and on cross-examination they were asked
did you have an affair with this
babysitter
they're like no no no no no no and and
then it was shown through text messages
and things they clearly had an affair
with the babysitter and I said why did
you lie
and they said well I didn't want that to
come out I said right but now you're a
liar
like did you molest your child because
if the answer to that is no
and now you destroyed your credibility
because you didn't want to admit that
you slept with an adult woman by the way
it would have been good for your case
would have been good for your case for
you to say yeah I slept with her because
I like sleeping with adult women
that's how I am I don't sleep with
children much less my own you know so so
why would you lie and so that that that
concept is incredibly important and
judges theoretically they have to make
very tough calls I feel like it's the
most impotent place to just sit there
and dispassionately sort of listen and
rule on objections like I I just would
be so frustrated because I'd want to get
up and you know I had to do jury duty
once and it was it was like a horrific
experience for me because I'm sitting
there and I have no power yeah I'm just
watching these two letters I'm like why
did you ask that question that way I
would never have asked it that way why
would you object like you when you
object you bring more attention to what
are you doing like I'm watching both of
them it's like watching like a Jujitsu
maybe but probably what it feel like for
like John donoher to watch two white
belts Spar like why are you doing wow my
God what are you doing why would you
grab that what do you think what are you
thinking like and you know it it's
frustrating it's frustrating to watch
and as a judge it must just be
unbelievable
so divorce lawyers sometimes get a bad
rap uh is there a reason for this
I mean no one's ever happy to
be spending time with a divorced lawyer
like if you have a criminal lawyer
they're defending you against the
Maelstrom of Injustice and false
allegations they're protecting your
freedom
and maybe you're acquitted and then
you're like oh that person saved me you
know you buy a house you know that
lawyer helps you get the house you know
you're happy about that sign the
paperwork you do a will like you help
they make you feel secure like at best
I'm a representative of a chapter in
someone's life that was very unpleasant
I have a friend who's a Juilliard
trained classical pianist and um he was
having a humidification system installed
in his home because his piano required a
certain level of humidity and it was
very expensive to install this
humidification system and we went out to
dinner and then we came back to his
place and he said man this is the most
depressing
fifteen thousand dollars I've ever spent
and I said why and he said because
there's nothing different
like I spent fifteen thousand dollars
and I feel absolutely nothing different
My Piano does but I don't like I don't
have anything to show for it like you
finish getting divorced
you really have anything to show for it
yeah you know like best yeah best it's
the same it's one of the things I think
that's interesting about divorce is in
our increasingly performative Society
you can't pretend you meant to get
divorced
you can't like everything everybody does
like well I wrote that album for me it
didn't matter that it was not going to
be popular no you wanted that album to
be popular like come on like you're
lying and that's fine but you're lying
oh I think my haircut came out great I
wanted it to look this fucked up no you
didn't you didn't you're lying and
that's fine because we live in a society
now where everybody's just oh yes I
meant to do that okay divorce nope you
you got married you wouldn't you
wouldn't you break up in a relationship
not a marriage okay well we were only
going to be together for a little while
it was never serious we were just like
you know we were having fun that's all
it was it wasn't we were never gonna be
a happily ever after now you got married
you got married guys you got up there
and you said forever
and it didn't go forever so you can't
bullshit anybody anymore like you no it
didn't go the way you thought it was
going to go didn't go the way you signed
on for so now that that's undeniable
like what can we make it what can we
make it into like it can be you know the
barns burned down now I can see the moon
you know like let's make it something
and so for me I think people look at a
divorce lawyer and they just go
yeah like this is this horrible chapter
and I associate you with it also too
listen some of the things we do
it's difficult to simultaneously prevent
and prepare for war
yeah the things you do to protect your
clients sometimes look like acts of
aggression
but really they're just trying to shore
up a defense
and so I get paid to be paranoid and I
have to say to clients sometimes like
well are you sure that they're not doing
this and then they go well I don't know
and I go well let me inquire did she
accuse me of that no no I'm not accusing
you I'm just trying like we get a
reputation divorce lawyers as amping up
conflict because we get paid for the
conflict right it's like if you get paid
by the bullet
you're going to start a lot of gun
fights right
it doesn't really work that way with
most good divorce lawyers like there are
plenty of people that are bad lawyers
and they Stoke up conflict because it
jacks up fees they usually don't do well
they don't build a successful career
because you live and die by your
reputation yes reputation everything but
but good lawyers like good experienced
divorce lawyers
we do the whole you know
Hey listen
you're going to say this I'm going to
say this you're going to do this I'm
going to do this this way let's skip it
we're gonna end up here you know we got
judge blah blah and you know what he's
going to do he's going to go right here
so why don't we just agree right now to
XYZ sounds good we're done we're good so
you want to minimize the number of
bullets it's like the two it's like you
know it's like the the two Swordsmen who
see each other and they just stand there
at the edge and they see the whole fight
in their minds and they know who won and
who lost and they walk away like it's we
do a lot of that we do a lot of okay you
know it's it's like when you watch high
level chess yeah and someone resigns and
you go wait what it happened he didn't
you go no no he the other guy won yeah
it's 15 moves from now but he won and
the other guy sees it so now we're done
can you speak to some uh recent high
profile
divorces
uh like the most recent I saw is Kevin
Costner yeah Kevin Costner is a great um
I mean I don't know him I'm not involved
in the case by the way Yellowstone's
just so great oh it's so good right and
I hope Matthew McConaughey who I've
gotten to know I hope I hope he does one
of the one of these shows is Yellowstone
or anything else he's just he born for
the role right yeah but anyway he'd be
amazing in that yeah your conversation
with him was a great one the Kevin
Costner divorce is interesting because
Kevin Costner had one of the most
expensive from a district of award
perspective like he he gave a huge
payout to his first wife
um and then this time he had a prenup so
it's actually it's a very public showing
of the fact that once bitten twice shy
like he had a very public divorce that
cost him a lot of Assets in terms of the
division of assets and now it appears by
all acknowledged reports that he had a
prenuptial agreement that was well
crafted and enforceable and you know
he's he's
um the argument now is over
what is child support what is spousal
support what's covered in the prenup and
what isn't so it seems like the prenup
worked actually the prenup worked you
know and Kevin Costner's career which
has always been a steady career
I don't know that in the like Hollywood
stock market that people would have bet
on Yellowstone like I don't I think you
would have said hey the best years of
that guy's career were behind him you
know how do you get better than Dances
with Wolves and Robin Hood and like all
these big big The Bodyguard yeah and
then Yellowstone and it's like holy cow
did he knock that out of the park and
he's Central to it I mean he knocked the
skin off the ball so I think that's why
prenups are important you don't know
what your career is going to do you
don't know where it's going to go and so
he saved himself a lot of money he also
has a great lawyer he has Laura wasser
Laura wasser's you know La you know just
a top professional brilliant lawyer
um even tempered but intense in the
courtroom and just a smart smart human
being the thing I liked just you know I
haven't been following it but I saw a
few comments he's made in
he like refused to comment negatively
about his spouse and just smart but like
the way he said it it wasn't
lawyer advice it's good lawyer advice
probably but he said it from the heart
which I always like I like seeing that
yeah like where he he refuses even the
drama even the public nature of it to
throwing Jabs or well Laura his lawyer
is actually notorious for like not
speaking to the Press about cases in an
extended way and that's smart move like
I don't speak about pending cases I'm
involved in
um publicly and I discourage my clients
from doing so I can't always stop them
but but I discourage them from doing so
I I don't think there's any good to come
of it there are lawyers who try to try
things in the court of public opinion
um I think there is a
to take it to the broader principle you
just brought up I I think there is a lot
of value in talking about your ex in a
favorable way
I have to say
when I first got divorced many years ago
I went on on a date with a young woman
it's one of my first dates as a divorced
man
and she was a divorced woman
she's a beautiful woman
and we were having dinner and it was
going quite well and it was one of those
things where I was like oh I definitely
want to see this girl again
and I said something about oh you know
there's going to be this thing at this
Museum we should go and she's like oh
yeah that'd be a lot of fun and I'm like
yeah we should definitely you know maybe
the next thing we do together and she
was like yeah we should go next weekend
like the kids are with the asshole so we
can go and I just it was like you could
hear that record scratch like you know I
just went oh yeah no this isn't good
like I'm not you're referring to the
father of your kids is it the asshole
like we're like we're we're already I'm
walking into something here that I don't
know that I want to be involved in
Matthew McConaughey before he was
married
you know if you look at his history he
dated some of the most beautiful women
in Hollywood in their Prime
and none of them
ever talked bad about him in the Press
they all were like oh my God he's such a
great guy such great I always wondered
like
how do you he got out of all of those
relationships without a without a
scratch on him and when you'd watch an
interview with him
they would say like so you you know you
dated Penelope Cruz and he'd go
Penelope that's just that's just a
special lady that's just a what a what a
special lady she's just a wonderful what
a wonderful woman are just so blessed to
have the time with her what a beautiful
wonderful woman and and I would think to
myself I'm like I'm like you're a genius
like he's a genius because like it it he
never came off as Petty spiteful bitter
any of that he just came off as like
just dignified strong smart self-assured
and like it left
you know it left like it it left the the
viewer
with the impression that like when he
was looking off and especially like he's
probably like just thinking about some
wonderful time he had with her and you
think to yourself like God that guy like
he just became cooler and cooler whereas
if he got into like the whole you know
oh yeah that was ugly and then you know
this happened and that like nobody wants
to hear it it's awful the funny thing
about him just having to interact with a
little bunch I don't think he's in the
he's in the Rogan school of thought I
think that I don't see him ever having a
fight
now his parents were as he as he's
spoken about a bunch non-stop fighting
it got divorced and remarried and yeah
just insane and they were volatile yeah
very he seems maybe you kind of uh it
depends on swinging the other way he
just seems cool as a cucumber like
always just lets it roll off yeah but
you know even if it's
internally yeah not rolling off there is
value
in just Rising above it in your
discourse
that's true yes like like you lie to
your children like people say this to me
all the time clients they're like
you know why did you tell your child
that Dad had an affair well I'm not
gonna lie to my kids
fuck you yes you are you lie to your
kids all the time yeah Mommy are you
gonna die someday yes babe I'm gonna die
and daddy's gonna die and then someday
the Earth's gonna hurl into the Sun and
we're all gonna die sweet dreams like
that's not you lie to your kids all the
time you know what's wrong with me we
don't know what's wrong with you we're
gonna take you to the doctor and
hopefully it's nothing serious and you
won't die like you lie to your kids all
the time you tell them that Santa Claus
exists when he does whatever
to so so to say I'm not gonna lie to my
kids like you lie to your kids all the
time you don't like your husband that's
okay
you don't like your ex-husband but it's
their father so just grin you know Oh
Daddy took me to meet his new girlfriend
Kiki oh that's nice you guys have a good
time good all that's yeah and she helped
me do my hair and she did my makeup
listen I'm sure that's burning you
inside
but you go oh that's great because why
you love your kids well that's fine I
mean again McConaughey has a as a web
bottom with that he's like he basically
says never lie but a little bullshit is
okay sure sure yeah I mean I'm very like
uh Tom Waits says that song lie to me uh
you gotta lie to me baby I I you know
honesty is a funny thing but Tom Waits
also believes that God's away on
business so I think his words man and
who do we who are the ones that we left
in charge Killers thieves and lawyers
that's a Tom Waits quote well it must be
true then yeah
um I don't know how many I don't know
how many limbs I have but I will give
all of them to talk to Tom and he's a
very private person I feel like he's the
musical equivalent of Cormac McCarthy
yeah even if you get the interview
you're not I don't think gonna get in
there no I don't think you want like uh
honestly I don't think you want to I
think you've seen in his public
interviews over the years with Letterman
and
I think he just he is the Poetry I would
put Tom Waits
um Cormac McCarthy Maynard James Keenan
like these these are artists that like I
think they want the art to speak for
itself
they would like to be lessened they
don't want you to you know I remember
early early days of tool
that he like this he could not have been
less interested in the spotlight yeah
to the point where I think it was almost
to the detriment of the band early on
you know and that's there's no surprise
that those are three artists that I
think are unbelievable and in a category
of their own and that you hear their
performance like you can give me a page
of a Cormac McCarthy novel and I'll know
it's a Cormac McCarthy novel you can a
few notes of manner James Keenan or Tom
Waits voice you know that that's them
yes genius and genius highs from the
spotlight but you know doesn't stop me
from feeling sad about it but anyway
yeah that does I would like to hear that
interview she's the girl that got away
yeah yeah I'm just standing outside of
that girl's house
yeah just playing in Your Eyes Peter
Gabriel yeah yeah anyway uh was it lie
to me this this whole idea of honesty in
relationships is interesting I mean
clerks with a blow jobs uh yeah I I
don't know how to phrase it eloquently
but like there's stuff you should be
honest about and there's still of
maybe you don't need to be honest about
so when the law
it is illegal to commit fraud fraud is a
material misrepresentation of fact
but the law specifically says you're
permitted to engage in quote mere
puffery
nice puffery puffery so and that's
that's the term that was used for it
puffery and puffery is when you are
inflating
something
you're being like hyperbolic but but
people wouldn't necessarily think you're
telling the truth you know like that
it's not you know like if I say to you
this bottle of water you know was held
by Elvis
and that's why you should pay me fifty
dollars worth that's fraud
but if I say this is the water that has
been it's this water is drank by the
finest people presidents drink this
water this is a now this is puffery you
know and so I I advertising marketing is
based on puffery it's not fraud when
it's fraud it crosses the line so I I
think there's a difference between
honesty and candor
right so so in relationships
being honest is good being totally
candid is probably not a great idea like
it's indelicate to be totally candid
about some things
if a woman you're in a romantic
relationship with says to you
do I look good in this dress
and they don't
you or do I look fat in this that's a
that's a better way any heterosexual man
who's ever been in a relationship has
had that question asked of him do I look
fat in this does this make my butt look
big or does it whatever it is this do I
like fatness if you go yes
that's in delicate it's honest but it's
indelicate and it's almost mean right
but there's a and if you say no but it's
true she doesn't look good in that like
the concern she sees is a legitimate
concern
do you lie and go no no you look great
in this it's great
that's not a good thing either so what
do you say
you know
that blue dress you have really
complements your body like in a way that
one doesn't you know that the
dress is such that it doesn't flatter
you I see what you're saying now now
it's the dress it's not you babe you
know but I'm telling you the truth like
I'm addressing your concern like this is
what
this is the distinction like don't don't
material misrepresent the facts like
don't steer people down roads that
they're you know you know that that's
not how it's gonna go right but you know
so it's like if the woman says I love
you don't and you don't love her don't
say I love you back you know you do the
like oh you know I have very strong
feelings for you as well or you know
like there has to be some Middle Ground
you don't just plain you didn't hear
them yeah I mean the uh I guess all of
it requires skill just like you
described and I I think just being
honest in quotes is not enough well it's
not a specific enough instruction I mean
that's the problem is he when you write
a relationship book which I never
intended to do
people come to you and say you know like
what are some you know what are the
things I should do to help my
relationship or what is the cause of
divorce and you go well disconnection
but like what do you mean by that or
like how do I improve my relationship
pay more attention
make small gestures
okay what does that even mean like what
do you mean like Jacks of love you
should show your partner that you love
them more often what do you mean like
what I say what I do we should have more
sex like what are you at what are you
saying like people want measurable
specific things so that's why I tried in
my book to be like very specific about
like things you can do things you
shouldn't do you know and and they're
practical suggestions like like like
leaving a note I talk a lot about
leaving a note like if you're dating
someone or you're living with them or
you're in a serious relationship send a
text leave a note just little every day
just some little thing that just tells
them how much you like them like this is
a low-cost high-value move doesn't take
much and it's a practical thing but but
but when we speak in these sort of like
broader axioms these broader Concepts
that people just don't have any idea how
to practically apply I can't wait to
listen to the audiobook where you talk
about managing marital finances is like
anal sex
which you're you're
um Mastery of the metaphor
touches one's heart and soul your
Shakespeare of the 21st century really I
don't know that Shakespeare would have
brought anal up in that context but I
appreciate it yeah yeah
my thesis there or my point there was
you'll proceed carefully and have
discussion in advance yes and don't just
spring it on someone sure and realize
that this if this goes wrong it will go
catastrophically wrong
um so good communication is important
and you know yeah I I don't think it's
something you should just uh dive into
unless you're prepared for that to have
potentially a very negative impact
and you know finances is one of the
sources of a huge amount of stress in
relationships which is tremendous
because it's it's about value I think I
mean it's aside from
having painful conversations about what
you tried to do and were able to do or
what your impulse control was in terms
of what you spent money on like there's
you know there's the conversation and
then there's what's underneath the
conversation you know there's gender
stuff about men feeling they need to be
a provider there's gender stuff of of of
men or women thinking material Goods
will fill the void and buying things and
then creating stress on their partner
there's the very human desire to make
things seem effortless so your spouse
doesn't feel any stress when in fact
it's causing tremendous Financial stress
and then when the Dam breaks it breaks
hard so yeah there's a lot finances is
tricky stuff and and you could probably
be wonderful romantic and sexual
partners and have very different styles
of of how you handle your finances and
how you handle your finances is informed
by you know not only your individual
psychology but also how you were raised
and you know how your family taught you
about finance and how you should conduct
your finances so and there's interesting
power dynamics in play tremendously yeah
and those are
there those are very tricky because
the standard of living of a couple
becomes important in a divorce but
sometimes this toxic standard of living
that created toxic levels of stress
is one of the causes of the divorce and
so you're asked they're asking the court
to maintain a financial obligation on
you that is the reason why the marriage
fell apart and that feels like a
particularly insulting form of of uh
indignity
well you're a fascinating human being on
many levels but you're also
exceptionally productive and you've
talked to me about waking up early for
you we've met today at 11 A.M and for
you that's what late late afternoon I
suppose yeah if we had we had to
negotiate and come to an agreement
because I went to bed at 4am and I was
up at I get up at four every day
well I woke it's three o'clock local
time so I woke up at three local time
nice yeah I wake up at four naturally
then my body just wakes up oh it wakes
up full on this speed
wow like like my most productive writing
and speaking is from 4 AM until noon or
one so can you take me through a
productive like a perfectly productive
day I wake up at 4am very naturally
I wish I didn't but I do check my phone
first thing because I want to see if any
emergencies came in from a client
overnight so work emergencies yeah work
related emergencies and it is a divorce
lawyer
[Music]
our definition of emergency can be very
serious it's people absconding with a
child it's a police being involved in
domestic violence and so they can be
like time sensitive things and when
someone is hiring a divorce lawyer I
think you know they're hiring they want
someone responsive my clients have my
cell phone number
and I go to bed early because I get up
early and so I go to sleep by 8 PM
latest I don't think I've seen 9 p.m
even on New Year's Eve
um so I wake up at at four I check my
phone check my email usually even if
there's something that's you know time
sensitive it's usually not so time
sensitive that it needs to be responded
to it for him because most other normal
people are asleep I have espresso black
espresso which I enjoy very much and
then I work out
um and that someday is going to be
weights a lot of days it's just going to
be cardio I've changed my habits now
that I'm in my early 50s it used to be
much more intensive weight training and
deadlifts and stuff like that and then I
herniated my L5 S1 so 485 was my Max
deadlift and now I I don't hardly do
deadlifts well you can still relive the
the past Glory I do I still have some
pictures you have pictures I have videos
I have videos me put on 485 for three
which you can in stories when you talk
about it you can exaggerate how much
you're actually lifted that's true but
then you he can't pack it up see I'm
very evidence-based so if I don't have a
photo or video of it it's just it's just
puffing mere puffery at that point but I
I work out uh and then I try to work out
for like a good hour and I do that
partly because of stress it's a I think
when I don't work out it's difficult I
had a group of guys that I would do Jiu
Jitsu with at 5am they were mostly law
enforcement they were cops who would
either be starting a shift or coming off
of a night shift and we would train
together just do like an open mat and it
was at 5am till six and that was Heaven
I loved training Jiu Jitsu first thing
in the morning if I can and then I
always do either a sauna or Steam for 20
minutes half an hour and then I do a
cold plunge or if I don't have access to
a cold plunge cold shower
um and then I have breakfast and it's
usually a very uncontroversial simple
breakfast I like to eat you know I eat
like slow carb Tim Ferriss type style
and uh and then I get right to work I
try to do my drafting early in the day
prenups motions things like that from
you know let's say six or seven until
9 9 30 which is when Court begins so
drafting is like writing up different
documents right writing prenups writing
separation agreements writing settlement
proposals writing motions for the court
pre-trial memos which is like research
that I want to present to a judge that
supports my arguments I do drafting I
review documents that the attorneys who
work for me have drafted and refined
them and then court is usually from nine
o'clock until noon and if we're on trial
then it's a whole different pace because
trials the lunch break isn't really a
lunch break you're preparing the
afternoon's Witnesses and you're trying
to do damage control on what happened in
the morning but if it's just Court
conferences like most cases there's
conferences conferences as you go in you
make oral argument but you're not you
don't have witnesses on the stand you're
not taking testimony it's like
everybody's just shouting allegations
back and forth and making temporary
arguments pre-trial
it's kind of the foreplay of the trial
right is that exhausting by the way it's
exhausting when you're done with it like
while you're doing it it's exhilarating
I always say that I I never sleep as
poorly as the night before a trial and I
never sleep as well as the night I
finished a trial because when I am on
trial I am speaking listening
watching the judge closely to see what
they're reacting to and when they're
paying attention or not paying attention
watching opposing counsel and the
opposing party like when are they when
is the opposing party writing a little
note to their lawyer to show it to them
when is what is the opposing Council
objecting to my client is trying to pass
me notes half the time while I'm
speaking and making my arguments I'm
trying to like adjust what I'm doing
strategically based on the objections
that the judge is ruling on so I'm so
hyper stimulated on trial that when you
finish you can't even talk you you're
gone your brain is jello yeah
conferences is harder because at least
with a trial there's a singularity of
focus
like with a trial it's just one case and
they have all my attention the problem
is is then on the lunch break all the
other cases that I've been ignoring for
the last several hours while I was on
trial they all have stuff going on
so it's like Hey where's that settlement
proposal on this hey this she just did
this we need to file a motion so now
it's like okay I have an hour to eat and
to answer all of this in some
preliminary way to delegate some
responsibilities and then I got to go
back in and put 100 of my focus on this
other case again so you find yourself in
a play that's why I'm very disciplined
as you find yourself in a place where I
live my whole life in six minute
increments tenths of an hour because we
bill in tenths of an hour so everything
I do it's like point two point four
point six and I'm logging time
throughout the day and you find yourself
at the end of the day
my son is a lawyer my older son
he's a district attorney and uh I'm very
proud of him he gets to put bad guys in
jail uh and he's very smart he's doing a
great job
he's just about a year ago
and when he
graduated from Law School
we were very close and we were talking
and he said
um
we were just talking about like the
career in the law that he was about to
embark on
and I said to him you know the feeling
at the end of the day
when like all your homework or all your
work is done
and you just go okay it's all done now
and I'm gonna go home
you'll never have that feeling ever
again
ever
you're just gonna every day go
all right it's enough it's enough I
gotta I gotta I gotta get out of here
like because you could with every one of
these cases
you could stay up 24 hours focusing just
on it so you have to have the discipline
to go yeah no that's it like I'm done
for now I've done what I could do today
and now I'm going to sit and read for a
half an hour I'm gonna watch this show
for a half an hour I'm gonna have this
meal because you you it's never done you
know so that's challenging that's a hard
that's a hard part of this job
but I think my discipline helps with
that and then I like I said I I finish
my day around 5 30 6 o'clock
and I have something to eat and I try to
wind down a little and I'm usually in
bed by 7 30 and asleep by eight uh you
mentioned Jiu Jitsu uh what your brown
belt what role has Jiu-Jitsu played in
your life
I ah I love Jiu Jitsu I I train martial
arts from the time I was a little kid I
think I was seven or eight I took a
poker now in goju karate
and I did Judo and it was always part of
my life and then I got to college and
grad school and I didn't have time for
it and I didn't do it so much and then I
got divorced I was quite young still
when I got divorced and I had two young
kids and I
um I thought well I can like you know
grow goatee and buy a convertible and do
like the thing you're supposed to do and
you're a dude with kids in middle close
to middle age
um or I can I can try to do something
more productive and so I said well maybe
I'll go back to martial arts so I took
up Muay Thai kickboxing
and they had a jiu jitsu class
at the same school after the Muay Thai
class and I had been around the orbit of
Jiu Jitsu having been my kids took
karate and there was Jiu Jitsu there it
was a Gracie Academy
and uh I stayed for a jiu jitsu class
and I had 120 pound girl
Ragdoll me like because I just knew
nothing about grappling and I remember
just going well I gotta learn what this
is and that was it I just dove into it
my first Professor was Louvin tolaro in
New Jersey's a hoyler Gracie black belt
great teacher taught me amazing
fundamentals took me all the way up to
Purple belt and then right after I got
my purple belt I moved to the city I
moved to Manhattan I actually chose my
apartment based on its proximity to
Marcelo Garcia and I moved to West
Chelsea because it was a short walk to
to Marcella's Academy my core Jiu Jitsu
was up to Purple belt it was Lou
vintelaro and then it's been Marcelo
um and Marcelo Paul Schreiner who's
really you know phenomenal at his
Academy and all of all the people at his
Academy I mean are all phenomenal I mean
Bernardo was was there for a period of
time that I was there and before he went
to Boston
um Marcos tanoko was like his lasso
guard stuff he was at Marcellus for a
long time and what a teacher I mean my
my lack of skill at Jiu Jitsu is not
based on a lack of quality instruction
like it's based on an inability to
retain the information you know for very
long I mean like for me that's one of
the most reliable place I can go to
humble myself I love I love
jiu jitsu
I love the progressive humility that it
drives home constantly I love the
impossibility of perfecting it although
Gordon Ryan's probably come close and
marcelo's probably come close to
perfecting it let me ask you since you
mentioned Gordon Ryan uh so apparently
some uh close with Gordon and there's
I'm sure you know and Austin just this
Jujitsu scene this it's like credits I'm
actually seeing John's honor her this
evening so he's I mean yeah that's this
is like yeah this is amazing truly
special place but anyway apparently long
ago
you mentioned Jersey uh there's there's
a bit of a conflict between you and uh
Gordon that you mentioned to me Offline
that you love them and um
like just uh how much respect you have
for him as an athlete and so on but can
you explain why why is this yeah I'm
actually glad I have that it's funny
that you bring it up and of all the you
know we're talking about all these heavy
topics and this is probably the one that
I find most
the most actually emotional but
you know Gordon's very I think a very
young man still he's like Brian is 20s
or early 30s and it's hard to imagine
that because he's accomplished so much
as an athlete and as a business person
um but there was a time you know not
that long ago I think it was eight or
nine years ago
where he was just a young guy on his way
up
um he's only I think a couple years
older than my oldest son
and I through a series of circumstances
Jiu Jitsu wasn't you know it's really
exploded in the last 10 years but there
were not as many people sponsoring quote
unquote super fights there really
weren't like Jiu Jitsu super fights
being sponsored if Jersey and New York
particular
and I got involved in sponsoring some
Jiu Jitsu super fights
and I also got involved in sponsoring
some Jiu Jitsu athletes
and Gordon was a young
a part of the Donahue her death squad I
was friends with Eddie Cummings I'm
still friends with Eddie um I I was
friends with John I'm still friends with
John
but I didn't really know Gordon I
actually don't know that I've still ever
met I don't think I've ever met Gordon
um I've been the same room as him
but
there was a fight that I had sponsored
some other fights with this particular
promoter and they asked me to sponsor
one and it didn't involve anyone from
marcelos
um but it involved Gordon he was one of
the people and I like John very much and
I liked everybody in the on her death
squad I like watching them compete and I
thought you know I think John's just
brilliant I mean everyone at marcelos
has such respect for John and for
everyone and the stuff they were doing
like when they were the early days of
that Donna her death squad like the
Eddie Cummings like his leg locks like
he just blew the whole game up like it
just was a whole nother thing you know
it was like insane what they did such
innovation
and
Gordon at the time was he was online and
I'm much older than that you know I'm
I'm in my early 50s and that's not I
guess chronologically that much older
but generationally I think it's quite a
bit different
and Gordon was smack talking with a guy
who I about a guy who I was sponsor of
who I knew and who I knew was a very
good athlete and had been through
difficult things in his life and um and
Gordon just you know said some like
nasty things about him you know some
very it falls into the category of
totally appropriate smack talking
looking at it now and looking at what
Gordon became you know which is he's
someone who talks trash you know it's
like part of his brand is to talk trash
and I see now that that's like a
Muhammad Ali Thing by the time I just
didn't see it is what it was
and although it doesn't excuse it
my mother was dying I was not at my best
I was having a hard time
and Gordon had spoken of this person and
I
I got upset and I reached out to John
and to Tom deblas and I said to them hey
like could you tell this guy to knock it
off like don't talk about this person
who I sponsor if I'm sponsoring his
fight I don't even know this Gordon Ryan
kid and I'm sponsoring his fight and
like he should say thank you don't talk
bad about a person who I financially
sponsor like that's not cool
and I think on Facebook he like wrote
some comments and then I wrote some
comments back and I was incredibly
obnoxious and um very soon after I felt
really gross
because I was an adult
and I was talking to a young person this
way who's on their way up who's like a
little older than one of my kids and I
just said these obnoxious things to him
and I I felt
really like that's gross you know and
but I've never really thought much about
it again you know I watched a star rise
and and I was very I mean who who's not
impressed by Gordon Ryan like and
everyone at our Academy was always very
you know like thrilled to see him rise
and you know I've stayed friends with
John and every time Gordon would have a
big victory I would always text John and
be like because you know Gordon's
victories are John's victories too you
know they have such a great Bond all the
people in his orbit like are all people
that I respect and like
and I just would say Hey listen
congratulations and please pass on my
congratulations to Gordon and uh but I
we don't know each other I don't have
his number I have no way to contact him
to apologize to him
but you know if Gordon hears this
um I am profoundly sorry
I and not I don't say that because I'm
trying to get in your good graces I
don't know that we'll ever meet each
other
um but but that was an unbelievably
wrong
stupid thing to say to a young person
well thank you for saying that this this
warms my heart in general so you talk to
a divorce lawyer and it warms your heart
look at that well speaking of which so
what uh
you're a romantic actually uh what what
role
you've seen love you've seen love break
down completely what role does Love play
in The Human Condition
a minute
I think it's kind of everything right
like it's love is romantic love Wars are
fought for romantic love Empires fall
because of romantic love like it takes
down Kings it it takes down you know
like it's it's we're all
just struggling for it we're all just
chasing it like we're all chasing the
dragon you know it's like the rush we
all are so it's huge you know it's huge
I mean
sex
and love which I like to believe are
some way connected and love and romance
which again I like to believe are in
some way connected
I think it's huge I think it's a
look I I've always thought
most of what men do including me we do
to get laid
like on some level
like you you want to be successful why
so you can have money why so you can
have nice things so that you can attract
attractive members of the opposite sex
you know like a lot of things come down
to that
and and even for like men you know like
red pill you know men who are like yeah
I don't care about women well you talk
about them all awful lot like for
someone that's not interested in women
you sure are like in the orbit of women
who you're telling how much you don't
care about women which kind of feels
like you're doing that to attract a
certain kind of woman which I get you
know like more power to you but like
that a person who worships an idol and a
person who destroys an idol are both
idolaters yes you know so you're you're
if all you're talking about is how you
don't need women you're talking about
women an awful lot so it's just such a
splinter in people's mind you know
relationships breakups
and and like it's such a great equalizer
I mean you're spending some time in the
rarified air now of like big celebrity
people and I remember when I started out
as a lawyer just doing like the regular
like the cop and the teacher with a 401k
and they didn't have any assets I
remember thinking like well someday if I
represent celebrities or wealthy CEOs
like it'll be different they'll be like
smarter they'll be like different it's
just
weird petty shit the same infidelity the
same the same kind of insecurities the
same kind of jealousy the same kind of
fights it all it's all the same but it
is it's like it and it's all the same
insecurity sadness it's the same like
desire to be validated like mommy issues
daddy issues like intimacy issues you
know it and it's all the same stuff and
and just because you're really good
at other things like I've represented
professional athletes who are phenomenal
world-class you know doctors business
people and they suck at relationships no
better than like anybody else like
there's no
you know there's no connection between
the skills that made you a good
entrepreneur and the skills that made
you a good you know spouse or partner
I'm sure there's some overlap like
patience is good and thinking
strategically is probably good but I I
I'm
I'm just humbled by how we're called to
it still like it's so and and even when
we lose and even when like our greatest
pains were caused by our desire to love
and be loved in a romantic sense we just
keep putting the money on the table and
playing like we won't just quit we just
keep going you know and the whole mess
of it is worth it I mean I guess I guess
so like it's calling us I don't know if
it's worth it or not that's a value
judgment right but I I it we don't stop
I don't know a lot of people that that
they played the hand they lost and they
went well no more of that game for me
like I'm not a good poker player I'm not
playing poker anymore like I know people
who've done that I know people that are
like listen I don't drink like you know
I'm allergic I break out in handcuffs
and hospital bills like I'm not drinking
anymore
but I don't know people that are like
man that relationship I screwed that up
or I got screwed on that one I'm not
doing that anymore you can say that
everybody says that I'm through with
love you know I'm done
they're not they keep going they'll
they'll they'll go up again
never gonna fall in love again and then
um a few weeks later yeah I got job
security man I got job security people
are not gonna stop walking down that
aisle they are not gonna stop having
kids with people that they probably
should have thought through whether they
would have kids with that person or not
but I'm glad they are I'm glad they're
taking that leap I'm glad they're taking
that risk it's this whole Beautiful Mess
that we're all a part of it's like
taking that risk yeah taking that leap
of vulnerabilities of what this whole
thing is about man what a danger if we
didn't you know like like every
you know you you you hear about people
like Alexander Hamilton or you hear
about you know people who like they were
born of circumstances that like
these two people should never have had a
kid
and then they did and that kid changes
the world you know and like moves the
dial forward and what I like what a
great mistake like what a great it's
that you can't ever say it's a mistake
like what an amazing thing that happened
and and I think that that's one of the
things I like about divorce as a
practice and as almost looking at it
like a spiritual practice I think you
just don't know
what is a blessing right in the world
like you just don't know like I my
father
I've spoken about this before publicly
and he does frequently my father is an
alcoholic my father's been in recovery
now for seven years I think yeah but he
was a bad alcoholic Vietnam veteran my
whole life and only got sober you know
when I was in my 40s
and a lot of the personality
characteristics I have are consistent
with those of adult children of
Alcoholics
you know desire for control and control
issues
um you know a lot a lot of those things
and I love my life like I'm having a
great time if I died tomorrow man I did
more learn more earn more loved more
than I ever dreamed
and so I'm so glad my dad was an
alcoholic
and if you said to me how do you raise
kids like I wouldn't say like well you
definitely want to be an alcoholic
because like your kids can eat a lot of
really good discipline lessons from that
experience like no like I wouldn't you
know I wouldn't want that for but but
but it's born like all these wonderful
things were born of this awful situation
so I think divorce the same thing like I
I we make these mistakes right but
they're not really you know I often have
to say to my clients when they're like
oh I wish I'd never married this person
I'm like you love your kids right
like your kids are half that person they
would not be the organism they are
without that person's DNA so you can't
regret
being with that person if you love your
kids like if you love your kids those
kids don't exist without that person and
I I don't know how we refocus on that
you know I don't know maybe we give
anyone going through it I've actually
had a theory
which I've not said out loud but I'll
say it to you because it's just us
talking
I I think
if we could figure out a way
to take a divorcing couple
that is interested in potentially
mediating
and put them in a setting
where we could give them both psilocybin
like a good dose like two and a half
three grams
and have them do individual sessions
with you know controlled setting with a
a a guide right
and and have them start to do that in
her work and then have them do some kind
of a of a session together
after they've had that experience that's
psychedelic experience I actually think
you could do transformative divorce work
because I I have found myself and
certainly the many people that I've
talked to who've had
psilocybin experiences and in particular
but any psychedelic experience many of
the empathogens right
um
or even like MDMA you know like MDMA
which is you know it is an empathogen
and if if we brought that space and the
divorce and conflict resolution space
together
that sort of
psychopharmacological intervention on
empathy one's empathy receptors or one's
connectivity I think that would could be
radically transforming it would be
logistically an absolute nightmare it
would never get done from a legal
standpoint but man like I I think
sometimes like that if because
I think the more that you can bring
people to the awareness of connection
that comes from
many people's psychedelic experiences I
think they could then extrapolate that
into
their understanding of the conflict and
disconnect they're having with their
partner so really lean into the like use
this brink of divorce as a kind of
catalyst for doing a lot of
soul-searching a lot of growth together
that was what appealed to me about it I
mean before I started doing it is it was
this idea that this is a opportunity
to for radical reinvention yeah like it
was an opportunity for people to say
okay now what like I didn't expect that
now what and it was to be part of the
architecture of that like I didn't look
at it like I'm helping demolish the
building
it was like I'm tearing down the
building so we can build the new one
which I hope is filled with joy and
abundance and peace and love and real
love real satisfaction like my my
ex-wife
is married for over a decade now to a
phenomenal guy who is perfect for her
and he's Nothing Like Me by the way like
like if you met him and you've met both
of us you'd go well no one could love
both of these guys like if you like this
flavor you wouldn't like this flavor
like I am impatient fast talking like
skip to the end we gotta Land This Plane
come on and he's like he's therapist
he's chill he's like patient and they're
perfect together and I can say that as
someone who loves her and loved her you
know and knows her or knew her like and
and I I think if we can
you know if we can radically view
honestly like without jealousy without
you know without the sense of like with
look at it and just go yeah yeah okay
like this like this is the love this
person needed like that doesn't mean my
love sucks just means it wasn't the
right one for this person you know like
if there's someone and there's a lid for
every pot you know like she found her
lid I wanted to find her lid that's good
you know and there's billions of pots
out there and we just need to match it
with the proper lid yeah not hit each
other over the head with them all day
long yeah man this is such a romantic
few hours we've got to spend together
and there's even a candle burning off is
there all this lovely all right brother
thanks so much thank you thanks for
having me
thanks for listening to this
conversation with James Sexton to
support this podcast please check out
our sponsors in the description and now
let me leave you with some words from
roomie
your task is not to seek for love but
merely to seek and find all the barriers
within yourself that you have built
against it
thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time