Kind: captions
Language: en
I am standing on the edge of the cliff
the entire night and if I you know mess
something up mess it up like what even
is a mistake but if I do like a little
clunker or whatever it is it's like so
what I like I wouldn't have played half
the stuff that I'm playing if I wasn't
constantly standing on the edge of the
cliff like wild why why are you stand on
the edge of the cliff because at the
edge of the cliff is all
possibilities
the following is a conversation with t
Wilkenfeld a singer songwriter basist
guitarist and a true musician who has
recorded and performed with many
legendary artists including Jeff Beck
Prince Eric lton Incubus Herby Hancock
MC Jagger Jackson Brown Rod Stewart
David Gilmore farel Hans Zimmer and many
many more this was a fun and fascinating
conversation this is Alex Freedman
podcast to support it please check out
our sponsors in the description and now
dear friends here's T
Wilkenfeld there's a legendary video of
you playing with Jeff Beck we're
actually watching it in the background
now so for people who don't know Jeff is
one of the greatest guitarists ever uh
so you're playing with him at the
2007 uh Crossroads Festival mhm and
people should definitely watch that
video you were killing it on the on the
Bas look at that
face uh were you scared what was that
experience like were you nervous you
don't look nervous uh confident yeah I'm
I wasn't nervous I I think that you can
get an adrenaline rush before a stage
which is natural but I think as soon as
you bring fear to a band stand you're
you're like limiting yourself you're
kind of like wooling yourself off from
everyone else if you're afraid like what
is there to be afraid of that you must
be afraid of making a mistake and
therefore you're coming at it as like a
perfectionist and you can't come at
music that way or it's not going to be
as expansive and vulnerable and true so
no I was excited and passionate
and having the having the best time and
also you know the fact that he gave me
this
solo the context of this performance is
that this was a Guitar Festival it's one
of the biggest guitar festivals in the
world cuz Eric Clapton's festival and
there's like 400 guitarists that are all
playing like solos all night and we were
like towards the end of the night and I
I could tell like Jeff like got like a
kick out of you know I'm I'm not going
to solo on like one of my most
well-known songs C V's lovers well
Stevie Wonder wrote it but people know
Jeff for that song and his solo on it
like I'm going to give it to my b player
and like and he did and like that he's
like bowing like that that that like he
didn't have to do that but you really
stepped up
there it just it just shows what a
generous musician he is and that's
evident in his playing across the board
is he is a generous loving open musician
he's not there for himself he's there
for the music and he thought well would
be the perfect musical thing to do um
and it kind of all started like when I
went to audition for him uh which was an
interesting experience because I got I
got food
poisoning um on the plane and so like
literally when the plane landed I went
straight into an ambulance into um a
hospital overnight the manager picked me
up and I showed up at Jeff's door which
was like a three-hour drive like through
wind Country Roads and he answered the
door he's like okay you ready to play so
we went upstairs and started like
rattling off the set and when it came to
this song Co of's lovers he just said
solo
and he he loved it and kept the Solo in
it so that's kind of how cuz that there
was no bass solo before I was playing in
his band so this whole thing was kind of
new so even with food poisoning like you
you could step up yeah that's just like
what Instinct it's just being able to
differentiate from like the body and
from like expression music all right
yeah you know it's interesting you said
fear walls you off from the other
musicians and what are you afraid of
you're afraid of making a mistake you
know uh bethoven said to play a wrong
note is insignificant to play without
passion is inexcusable yeah do you think
uh the old man had a point yeah
different styles of music invite uh
varying degrees
of
um I would say uncertainty or unsafety
in in the way that people might perceive
it so for instance like the tour that I
was just on like playing Almond Brothers
songs like I am standing on the edge of
the cliff the entire night and if I you
know mess something up mess it up like
what even is a mistake but if I do like
a little clunker or whatever it is it's
like so what I like I wouldn't have
played half the stuff that I'm playing
if I wasn't constantly standing on the
edge of the cliff like wild and
so I don't care about those few little
things I care about the overall
expression and then there's other gigs
that you know for instance if I got
called for like a pop or country session
or a
show the in those environments they may
want you to play safe like just play the
pop pot and play it with a great Groove
and time and great Dynamics and don't
really Veer away from the pot and stuff
and and I've done plenty of those gigs
too it's just it's just a different like
hat you put on what do you get from the
veering from the veering off the beaten
path you just love it or is that going
to make the the performance
better like why why why you stand at the
edge of the cliff because at the edge of
the cliff is all
possibilities and unknown you don't know
what's coming and I love being there in
the
unknown it otherwise it's just like why
are we doing this am I am I just like a
clown on stage like showing you my
skills or what you know what I've
studied in my bedroom it's like no like
I I want to be like pure expression
happening right now and responding in
real real time to everything that's
happening and anytime I'm not doing that
it's like it's a waste of everybody's
time have you ever messed it up real
bad mess what
up I mean you know comedians bomb you're
a big fan of Comedy yeah have you ever
bombed on stage
probably I think I think it's all about
recovery you know and the more times
that you fall off the cliff yeah the
quicker you know how to recover and um
the the varying ways that you can
recover to to the point in which it's
concealed so much that maybe a listener
might not even know that you're
recovering and eventually you learned to
fly if we take that metaphor all the way
off the cliff you know you Lear all
right I remember one time when I was
really
young well not really young but like
when I was 21
or2 yeah exactly um but when I was first
playing with Jeff
Beck and we played at what I consider
the best the coolest jazz festival it's
montro Jazz and like miles played there
everyone play there and they have the
best speaker system ever I was excited
for months and the drummer Vinnie was
like practicing for like eight hours in
the bus on the way there and everyone
was like on fire on stage and I remember
playing a note just one note that I
really didn't like and
I let it go in the moment on stage but
as soon as I got off stage I was really
sad and so I sat like on this road case
everyone was out celebrating I like sat
on this road case with a sad face
like and then Claude noobs like the
owner of the you know the whole festival
came up to me he's like dll what's wrong
and I'm like I played a bad
not such a child and like he he said all
this wise stuff that you know Miles
Davis has had imparted to him and like
it fully cheered me up um he's like is
there anything that would make you feel
better and I was like
caviar the dude came back 10 minutes
later with this huge thing oh wow it was
a joke it was a joke but he actually
brought me cavat but anyway that's the
that's the one time that I remember
being sad about a performance now I'm
just like okay whatever like it's done
was it a physical slip of like the
fingers or was it did you intend to play
that note that I can't
remember I I I can't remember if it was
just a bad choice that I that sounded
like a clanger or why it happened it was
so long ago but I I don't get depressed
about that anymore that'd be funny if
that was like your biggest and only
regret in life is that note and that
haunted you in your dreams and then like
you know like I'm on my deathbed and
just everyone's just bringing me caviar
because of the one joke went way too far
you you talked about
confidence somewhere I don't remember
where so I want to ask you about how
much confidence it takes to be up there
you said something that Anthony Jackson
told you as encouragement a line that I
really like that quote on your worst day
you're still a bad
motherfucker that's actually a a Steve
Gad quote and Steve used to tell that to
Anthony because Anthony used to get real
depressed if he did a wrong thing or not
perfect thing and Steve Gad used to say
this to Anthony Jackson and then Anthony
was my first base Mentor or just Mentor
in general for people don't know he's a
legendary basis to a legendary basist
and I I started playing the bass when I
was 17 and I moved to New York and I met
Anthony and he started mentoring me bit
in a very not typical way like he like
would just sit in his car with me for
hours and talk music and you guys just
listen to music and analyze it exactly
um and that was the best form of
learning I think just like well what do
you perceive here and well I heard this
and just discussing that um Jazz usually
or no old old styles of music and uh
yeah he told me that story about it on
your worst day because you know like
yeah even then like when I was like 18
19 I get sad sometimes about
performances like I could have done this
it's like I don't do that anymore
thankfully or I'd be miserable so you
still you always kind of feel pretty
good yeah yeah now I
do now now it's just I I I sense the
body feeling fatigued especially if it's
a very long show like the ones I just
did with three hour shows and we did you
know one to three hour sound checks so
that's a lot of physical activity every
day um so I just feel the body being
tired like fatigued the ears are
fatigued that's about it I don't really
reflect on the show much you're almost
like from a third person perspective
feel the body get tired and just accept
it yeah I don't want to identify with it
because then I'm like then then I'm
tired but I'm not tired I'm usually like
energized it's like with the food
poisoning the mind is still yeah capable
of creative genius even if the body is
gone yeah something like that yeah so no
self-critical component to the way you
see your performances anymore there is
uh there is critique but not in the way
that it would diminish my sense of self
it's different I can just kind of look
at something and be like okay well
actually next time I'll I'll do this
choice and this Choice maybe maybe this
would serve the song better um maybe
this would help uh the groove feel more
like this but it's not like I suck
because I did this and I'm a loser and
like you think that's bad cuz I even
when I asked that question I had a
self-critical thought that why' you ask
that question that's the wrong question
I always have the self-critical enery in
writing is it necessarily A Bad Thing it
depends if it's affecting you negatively
what is negative anyway well if if it
brings your frequency down and you feel
less joyful inside unless you don't feel
like complete you feel less than less
worthy of something thing then you could
call that bad if you aspire to not feel
that way yeah I aspire to not feel that
way in the big picture but in the little
picture like there's a pain is a little
pain is good that's fair so confidence
you seem like in this performance you
seem confident you seem to be truly
walking the the bad motherfucker way of
life I kind of a word that I prefer over
confidence is Trust
because I think with confidence is
almost
like there's there a belief assigned to
it that I am this thing that you believe
in whereas trust is just simply knowing
that you can get up there and handle
whatever is going to come your way and
it's it's it's more of an open feeling
where it's like yeah I could I could do
this sure but not like I'm a bad
motherfucker like you know what I mean
this there's a huge difference cuz I've
shared the stage with people who have a
lot of confidence and it can be like a
brick wall just like fear is a brick
wall so the brick wall is a bad thing
like the thing you have with Jeff here
on stage is not a brick wall there's no
wall this is chemistry yeah how can you
explain that chemistry that the two of
you had trust and lack of fear yeah and
also I will say you know that uh each
individual has developed likes and
dislikes over their their lifetime and
that can be like in this case we're just
talking aesthetic likes and dislikes so
in this particular case obviously our
likes and dislikes are very much aligned
such that the things I do to compliment
him he enjoys and vice versa but it
could be two you know very trusting open
uh musicians on stage that don't have
walls up but their choices are very
different and one person likes heavy
metal and the other person likes
classical so it's it's got to be both so
you guys were good at like yes anding
each other musically like definitely is
that where you're
most at peace in a meditative way is on
stage um it used to be that it would
only be on stage it started with that
that was almost like my way in to Flow
State and meditation was playing music
and then
uh back in the day when I'd kind of
crash after shows I wanted to change
that I wanted to always feel like I'm in
Flow State so have you succeeded I've
gotten a lot better I'm still obviously
on the journey but yes so you meditate I
think you said somewhere that you
meditate before shows or just in general
I I meditate every day um when I'm on
tour with my band I ask that we all
meditate together for at least 20
minutes and I don't dictate what which
type of meditation I don't put on a
guided meditation cuz everyone has their
own thing they want to do maybe someone
might be praying in their head it
doesn't matter it's just the idea that
we all put our phones down and we all
are in one room connecting energetically
spiritually and just letting Our Lives
go for a second and and then we walk
straight on the stage and it's always
really connected and there were a couple
gigs where we ran out of time for that
and I could tell there was a there was a
major difference in the
performance so it both connects you and
centers you all those things yeah but
then when I'm home like I love to
meditate and I've tried various styles
of meditation and studied
various types of things so I I don't do
just one thing I kind of customize it
depending on where I'm at in my life
you and the world lost Jeff Beck a year
ago you told me you really miss him
how's the pain of losing Jeff change you
maybe deepen your sense of the
world you know it's hard to accept that
we won't create
something musically again in this
lifetime
um but in terms of the grief
grief was easier for me because I went
through a major grief period in
2016 uh and
17 and that was the first time I'd
really gone through the process of grief
uh in a in a like in a
nonam situation like with friends and
mentors and people that I'd created with
which is different it's a different kind
of connection um when my grandparents
died it's like there was nothing left
unsaid and I was at peace with what was
happening with this when Prince died out
of the blue um in mid uh 2016 and then
Leonard Cohen died in
November that just tore me to shreds
because Leonard Cohen was not just
someone that
profoundly inspired me you know
musically and lyrically but spiritually
we had a very deep
connection um and that was the basis of
a lot of our conversation was
spirituality and so at that time I felt
like a piece of me went
missing and that was a very long process
where I just stayed in my place and
didn't want to play a note of music I
kind of wanted to just get rid of all my
stuff so I I had a friend come over and
he's like you should just once you come
to The Comedy Store I'm like Comedy
Store like what am I going to go go to
some store and buy clown suits like what
are you talking about what's a comedy
store he's like no no no like The Comedy
Store the place where like comedians go
I'm like okay well I've I've never seen
standup I I don't you know I've seen
Seinfeld on TV that's like the extent of
my standup experience so he took me to
the comedy
store and every single one of those
comedians like embraced me like I was
family it didn't even take a day I was
like part of the family and I made like
25 best
friends and I ended up throwing all my
stuff in storage and like finding a
little room to stay in where I rented my
gear out uh
and that was me pay my rent paying was
me L loaning the gear because I didn't
want any any responsibilities Financial
I just wanted to be
completely free so that I could like
just process it and not feel like I had
to commit to anything workwise or
creatively I just wanted to unplug and
so this was like a fun and very
different way to unplug because you know
previously I may have just gone to a
monastery and spent you know weeks at a
monasterial months but in this case I
was like you know what this is a
different kind of experience I'm going
to just hang out with Comedians and stay
in this room and with no responsibility
really yeah other than to really deeply
connect with this grief that I'm
experiencing I'm not going to negate it
I'm not I'm I'm going to really
fully connect to it and I did and it was
tough and then you know more more people
in 20177 were leaving Greg Al and Tom
Petty I mean it was like these are
people that I I worked with all these
people and like had great connections
with them and they were all going and
the world was mourning the loss of these
people because of everything that they'
they'd given to the world like they'd
changed the world's lives not just mine
CU I knew them personally and so that
was also complicated and why for me it
was it was interesting to be grieving
the loss of these musicians with
Comedians and uh I learned a lot it
changed my life because I just learned
to I learned to laugh at absolutely
anything everything I mean my grandpa
had a really great sense of humor too my
grandpa's a holocaust Survivor and like
he could just kind of like laugh at
anything and like so I already kind of
have that in me but being around all
these comedians just kind of like
exaggerated that for me and that really
changed things for me for the better so
then when Jeff Beck died it was like
okay I've got these tools I know what
this is and and I'm going to go through
it again and I'm going to be on tour
with Incubus in two days yeah and so
Mike dur from Green
Day he called me up he said hey like I
know you're going through a lot and I
said yeah I don't even know what I'm
going to play like I really want a
vintage Jazz base for this I only have a
70s one that I don't really think is
appropriate I really need a 60s one blah
blah blah and Mike's like I'm going to
hook you up he showed up to my place the
next day with a truckload of old PAB
bases and Jazz bases and brought them
all into my studio and I'm playing them
and then I pull one out of the case and
it's it's Olympic White just like Jeff
Beck
and I play it and not only did I get
goosebumps and stuff started crying but
I looked over at Mike and same thing was
happening and he's like uh I guess I
guess Jeff might might be happy about
this and he's like well you know I
didn't want to let this one go I was
just trying to cheer you up a bit and
maybe loan it to you for the tour but if
you really want
it it's yours and I was like oh my God
this is like like what a like Mike D is
the nicest guy ever
um so so that happened so that bass's
name is Jeff and it's a white Jazz base
and I played it on the incubus tour but
yeah I do feel like I'm more equipped to
handle grief now tell me about The
Comedy Store a little bit more do you
think um Comedians and musicians in some
deep fundamental way are made from the
same cloth like are they
spiritually connected somehow I think
everyone's connected
in the same way so I think personality
wise um Comedians and musicians are
quite different actually oh in what
way well you you'd have to subdivide
even musicians into different categories
too because you know the thing that I
appreciate about comedians is that you
know you go to a restaurant with them
and like all the observational humor of
like they'll just they'll notice
everything and make you laugh about it
which a really great great songwriter
does the same thing too and my favorite
lyricists like Leonard Cohen Bob Dylan
Paul Simon they you know Warren zon they
add comedy into their lyric and like so
those types of people I would liken to
hanging out with a comedian it's very
different from like say somebody that is
an instrumental guitarist or something
like that that they're they're more
focused on whether it's like a
kinesthetic thing or like a physical
thing or whatever it is they're not
they're not quite doing the
observational thing in the same way so I
just appreciate like my favorite thing
to do is go out and laugh especially
because like I can tend to be pretty
analytical and be in my head um and so
anything that just kind of lets me be in
my heart and just enjoy life I think
there's a photo of you with de Chappelle
on stage was that about so right after
Leonard Cohen passed away The Comedy
Store threw me a birthday party it was
this crazy lineup and like it was like
I'd play a song with my
band and um and then Jackson Brown sat
in and like sung a song and then like
Dave Chappelle came up and said some
jokes it was like it was like one of my
favorite nights ever yeah yeah it was
cool it was it was a very healing
birthday party yeah there's something
magical about that place yeah it's
really special yeah well the mothership
has some magic to it too it's really
cool it's different totally different
vibe but like super awesome you've said
that uh Lena Cohen is uh a songwriting
inspiration of
yours I saw you perform his song Chelsea
Hotel brilliantly on the
internet um it's about for people who
don't know his uh his love affair with
uh Janet Joplin
how's that song make you feel great I
love that song which aspect musically
The Melancholy feeling the hopeful
feeling the the the cocky feeling all of
it like every single line has a
different feeling to it really yeah but
as a whole piece I I I appreciate it so
much I actually lived at the Chelsea
Hotel and when when Leonard and I first
met that was one of the first things we
talked about was the you know I lived
there where all that stuff went down
before they tore it apart and um yeah I
it's just a beautiful song you know what
makes me sad the way it ends I don't
mean to suggest that I loved you the
best I can't keep track of each Fallen
Robin I remember you well in the Chelsea
Hotel that's all I don't even think of
you that often you know that line I
don't even think of you that often
always like breaks my heart for some
reason like how ephemeral how shortl
lasting like certain love affairs can be
just kind of like huh yeah do you think
he meant it I always think he doesn't
he's trying to convince himself of it it
could be both or either you know I mean
that's the beautiful thing about poetry
and lyric is that it's supposed to be
open yeah I wonder if it's also open to
him depending on the day you know
definitely I mean the thing that he
taught me um or his advice to me
was when you're writing a
song look at it the next morning like
just first thing and read it and then
take a walk smoke a joint read it
again go have a fight with your you know
daughter come back read it again get
drunk read it again wait a week read it
again just so that you know from every
state and every position that you the
The Wider the lens is going to be from
an audience perspective you want things
to mean multiple
things uh so there's one line I read
somewhere that he regrets putting in the
song so I got to ask you about it's
pretty edgy it's about uh giving me head
on the unmade bed yeah you think that's
a good line or bad line it's an amazing
line it's one of the best lines in the
song yeah right when he put that song
out obviously he didn't regret it or he
wouldn't have put that lyric in the song
I think what happened was that
eventually word got out either from him
or from somebody else that the song was
about Janice Joplin yes and so at that
point he regretted the
indiscretion so it wasn't that he
regretted how great the line was it was
just you know the Privacy Factor but
then again Leonard's known for rewriting
his lyrics and in his live shows you'll
see a bunch of songs where it's like new
lyrics and he didn't do it because he
didn't like the old lyrics he just did
it
because he could because he's Leonard
and it's like why not have fun with
words the way musicians have fun you
know improvising solos on stage and he
could have changed that line in Chelsea
Hotel after in retrospect and he never
did I remember you well in the Chelsea
Hotel tell you were talking so brave and
so sweet giving me head on the unmade
bed while The Limousines wait in the
street it's so powerful it's a powerful
line it just kind of shocks you well
that's what's so so great about it m
yeah but also
heartbreaking cuz it doesn't last
especially actually to me it has more
meaning once you know it's Janice Joplin
it's like okay these two stars kind of
collided for a time yeah but but what
why is it hot breaking could also be
just beautiful that they had a little
fling yeah everything is beautiful thank
you even the dark stuff what's not
Beautiful Everything Is Beautiful if you
if you look long enough and deeply
enough well were we saying oh uh what do
you think about Hallelujah like what
what do you think about the different
different songs of his why' you choose
chy hotel to perform because I lived
there and it was like it meant something
to me to sing
to sing that song and uh actually when I
put that song out on YouTube that's when
he sent me an email he's like hey do you
want to you want to come over and so
this is how you guys connected no we met
in a rehearsal Studio I ended up
watching their whole rehearsal and
sitting there next to roshi his like
105y old monk which was really great I
remember when I was like shaking his
hand like like so I like it was just me
and roshi on the couch watching Leonard
with his band mhm and he shaking hands
and he grips my hand like this so like
doesn't let it go and he said he looked
in my eyes he said where are you and I
said in the handshake he said
yes wow you passed the test passed the
roshi test and then what's funny was
that the next thing that happened about
five minutes later was Leonard Cohen got
down on his knees and opened up a jar
I'm not kidding you of caviar this is
not a callback well it is in a way a
deep a deep fundamental way he started
feeding the monk caviar yeah and that
healed my montro jazz festival sadness
forever the end do you think there's a
kind of like
weird like there's a sense of humor to
it all somehow like like why does that
happen why why does that
happen why like why stuff like that
happens or that the the Jeff bass speaks
to you why why do we need to know you
believe in that stuff in what stuff that
there's a rhyme to the whole thing
somehow like there a frequency to
which magical things of that nature can
happen um divided about that answer
because I think just things flowing I
don't necess I don't think anything's
kind of like planned out like uh through
time it's like an orchestra playing of
different experiences and circumstances
that are somehow connected I think
everything's connected so yes but
predetermined means like I don't believe
in the predetermined stuff necessarily I
which is different
from whatever your your previous karma
is and karma is a whole other kind of
conversation I don't mean comma as in
like good comma bad Comma just comma
meaning the collection of things you
have acquired over this lifetime or
other lifetimes just whatever that
whatever that is is going to influence
your future MH so well you had a really
interesting trajectory through
life uh maybe I just read it that way
because I've had a lot of stuff happen
to me that's like lucky feels lucky and
sometimes I wonder like huh like this is
weird it does feel like the universe
just kind of throws stuff at you with a
chuckle I don't know not you the
proverbial you one yeah you said you
sometimes watch Classic Movies to
inspire your songwriting and you
mentioned watching taxi
driver I love that
movie and I think you mentioned that you
wrote a love song based on that movie so
Travis ble for people don't know is uh a
taxi driver and uh he's deeply lonely
what do you think about that kind of
loneliness I think that loneliness is a
product of feeling separate from the
world and separate from others and that
the less you experience that separation
the less you'll feel
lonely how often have you felt lonely in
this way separated from the rest of the
world it's less and less every single
year cuz I work very hard at at it
feeling like a part of the world yeah
just meditating and studying scriptures
and don't you think that I mean isn't
there a fundamental loneliness The Human
Experience just in what sense that all
the struggles all the suffering you
experien is really experienced by you
alone is it maybe at the very bottom
it's not it's kind of all the same stuff
you didn't feel alone in 2016
2017 I felt like I lost a piece of
myself that I had given to somebody else
and I feel like people feel that in
romantic um exchanges whether it's
long-term
shortterm you give a piece of yourself
and then if that person dies or you
break up with that person you feel like
you've lost that piece of yourself which
I feel like is very different experience
than if you just are opening yourself
rather than giving a piece of yourself
you're just opening yourself to somebody
or
something so opening is fundamentally
not a lonely
experience no it's a loving experience
and then losing a piece of
yourself can be yeah because you can't
really you can't lose a piece of
yourself if you
are the same self as every other the
self right right so if you see yourself
as together with everybody then there's
no losing yeah yeah yeah it's a
beautiful way to look at it you said
that uh there's something healing about
being in an empty hotel room with no
attachments except your suitcase you
know a lot of people would talk about
hotel rooms
being a fundamentally lonely experience
but you're saying it's it's healing it's
healing yeah cuz I just get to sit there
and not worry about all this stuff that
like this these meaningless attachments
I've got my suitcase with my Necessities
or my three suitcases
sometimes and
uh I can just sit there and meditate and
just be with myself and it's so awesome
and usually like you plan your touring
for like you know you you you kind of
get the business aspect of things taken
care of in advance so you can kind of
just really be flowing day a day on a
tour and it's a great
feeling it's funny because this last
tour that I did we didn't have hotels
every night we had hotels maybe like
once a
week and I I hadn't done that before
usually it's I'm frequently in hotels so
I didn't get that space that I'm really
used to getting you missed them I very
much missed it and had to be very
creative
and I ended up like
going into the back Lounge when everyone
was asleep and like meditating back
there or like before everyone work up um
and I actually like joined there was
like an online Meditation Retreat that
was happening it was like 12 hours a day
of Silent meditations that happens once
a year and I love this this particular
group of people and they knew I was on
tour so they're like just join when you
can and so I was on the tour doing The
Meditation Retreat at the same time it
was so fun it was so fun because I was
like in the back Lounge the bus is like
moving around like this my laptop the
zoom is like and I'm just like sitting
like meditating it was like yeah this is
the shit silent so they they're all
connected through zoom and just doing
Sil 12 12 hours a day yeah that's cool
these particular Retreats that I started
doing it's not straight silent there are
you know silent sits every hour for 50
minutes
and then there's some talks and like
these people that I've been working with
are really cool because they're
integrating um spiral Dynamics into zen
and it's like the coolest combination
what's spiral Dynamics like Ken Wilbur
do you know Ken Wilbur integral theory
yes can you explain a little bit so he I
vaguely know of him because of kind of
this notion
that everything is one like everything
is integrated that every
field has truths and falsehoods and we
should integrate the
truths yeah it's hard to explain how it
applies to this type of meditation
because it's in the the guided parts of
the meditation that this whole like
holonic theory is like brought in about
like transcending and including every
aspect of your
being um because he talks about like
levels of development and like it in
Consciousness and how like this applies
to like every single religion or
non-religion that there are these levels
of development and from all that go all
the way up to Enlightenment and no
matter what you start off with it could
be you know Christianity Buddhism Vidant
doesn't matter like anything then I just
like I like it when everything is and
everyone is taken into account it
doesn't matter where you're coming from
that there is a way to to be
self-realized self-actualized there are
self-actualized beings from all walks of
life with very very different paths
There's No One path I mean in this
particular Retreat I do there's like a
lot of Silent sits and then there's some
guided
meditations um but this I I've tried a
lot of different
Avenues and they're all great so I
wouldn't just say just try this one
thing like I've studied like the
upanishads like with Vidant teaches and
like gone through those texts for months
and months and stayed at monasteries and
like how they break it down makes total
sense to my mind and heart and like my
more importantly than my mind like my
inner knowing like it resonates that's
inner knowing yeah because like your
mind is like the thinking tool like it's
it's not not you you're not your mind
you're not your thoughts you're not your
body you know so it's like just the you
like that knowing that you have that's
kind of when something resonates there
that's usually when you go with
something what was living in a monastery
like it's the best what is what are we
talking about like what it's just an
empty room with like a tiny single bed
and a sheet and a pillow and that's it
that's it you have to eat the same thing
as everyone what's the food like what is
it very plain cheap basic food which is
you know funny for someone like me
because I'm I'm I'm pretty particular
about my diet yeah you brought over like
like 20 different
ingredients yeah so what was the like
day in the life of tall at a
monastery you wake up at 5 a.m. to the
bell and you go and meditate like
constantly
so till bedtime other than two
meals how are you sitting are you in a
group is there other people there and
you're just sitting there well if you're
talking about the Zen Monastery because
I stayed in Zen
Monastery um and I did a thing with that
um the guy was telling you about that
kind of uh the integral Zen thing where
he uses Ken wilber's work in combination
with Zen that that's a little bit
different cuz he does talks we talk
about things
um and that's very separate from the
monaster like the Vidant monasteries
I've stayed at which there's very little
meditation in in terms of sitting
silently we instead we are meditating on
the scriptures like the upanishads and
we're like diving into that what were
the differences the takeaways from the
experiences the the two different the
integral one and
the uh the meditating on the scriptures
they're both
incredibly have been incredibly helpful
to me because the
Vidant
um anytime I go into my head about
something the the the answer is there
based on this
knowledge
and with the Zen Monastery it's like you
just got to put your your butt in the
seat and sit and wait and maybe
something will maybe it won't but just
keep sitting and it's very disciplined
and you go through a lot your body is
purging a lot
there's there's a lot and you don't
necessarily have the answers as to what
is happening and so I think for somebody
like me I need both I need to be in a
place where there's complete uncertainty
but complete discipline and just doing
the regimented thing and then there's
the me that feels very
satisfied from an analytical standpoint
understanding what's happening like what
what is the gross and the subtle body
and the you know like I want to
understand these things about what it is
to be a human so I I like them both
understand what it means to be a human
so that like having that patience and
just sitting with yourself helps you do
that
yes more so like the analysis pot oh so
the an the actual okay got it but
sitting with yourself there's no better
education yeah of like facing every
demon and it's all going to come out and
it's not going to be
pretty but then there's there's things
that happen on the other side of it that
are so profound have you met most of
your
demons I've met the demons that have
come out oh there may be more who knows
yeah okay well to be
continued what uh since since I think I
I I I heard you say that you wrote A
Love Song after Taxi Driver what uh kind
of love songs do you write more
of broken so you're a songwriter first
for people who don't know they might
think you're primarily a basis but
you're they wrong so do you right mostly
brokenheart ones or like hopeful love
songs in love songs about to be in love
songs soon to fall in love songs
um well the last album I put out is
pretty self-explanatory as to what that
is um a lot of pain that one that was
yeah some of it
was storytelling and some of it was real
experience and it's always like a
combination of of things like what I I
serve the song so sometimes you use your
own uh life experience to tell a song
and sometimes you may watch a movie and
part of that script uh merges with your
own experience and that tells the right
story for the point you're trying to
make in the song so it's it varies from
song to song like in terms of how like
what a biographical it is yeah I was at
the end of the taxi driver when um
what's her name Betsy because Travis
becomes a hero she tries to get with him
and he rejects her also
that was
powerful my favorite love songs are the
ones where you're not
sure it's about romantic love or love of
God or love of life or just pure just
love like I was thinking like George
Harrison writes songs like that like
what is
life or like Bob Dylan song that George
Harrison covered if not for you yeah
just grateful grateful for for his love
yeah right right that's kind of like
where what I'm experiencing now and so
who knows what'll end up coming out but
do you've been writing this kind of yeah
I've been writing a little bit I don't
have like an intention of like putting
something out in in in any particular
time frame but I'm just riding and
letting things flow MH and yeah I love
there's like a bunch of like Leonard
Cohen songs to too where you're like
there's so many ways to interpret this
song and there's so many ways I just
love songs that don't aren't like so
like specifically about one thing MH you
know I I really love the song to play it
to Listen to Wonderful Tonight by Eric
Clapton and I thought it was pretty
straightforward yeah and then I had a
conversation with uh Eric
Weinstein who's a mutual friend of ours
and he told me it's not about what I
thought it's about oh yeah what did he
say
um it's a a more complicated story it's
it's actually a man so wonderful
tonight is a story about a man being
just finding his wife beautiful and
appreciating it
throughout but he said it was actually a
man missing his wife he's
imagining uh that she's lost because of
the decisions he's made in his life so
it's pain he had a long beautiful Eric
quinin like explanation of why I love
this have you and Eric played music no
we just hung out and had very long
conversations about everything he's a
bit of a musician you know yeah okay you
picked up the guitar when you were 14
let's go back and one interesting thing
that just jumped out of me is you said
you learned how to practice in your head
because you only had 30 minutes yeah
your parents would only let you practice
for 30 minutes yeah I read somewhere the
call train did the same he was not the
practice part but he was able to play
instruments in his head MH as a way to
like think through different lines
different musical thoughts that kind of
stuff I just um maybe can you tell the
story of that yeah I just grew up in a
environment that was uh focused on
Academia yeah and I fell in love with
guitar and really just wanted the Focus
to be that um so my limit was 30 minutes
a day for I don't even remember how many
times a week might have been every day
or five days a week whatever so your
parents didn't want you to play more
than that um no and so I just learned
how to visualize the fretboard in my
head and I'd practice all day in my head
it's kind of like you know the the The
Queen's Gambit the TV show with Ana
Taylor joy and she just like it on the
ceiling I used to do that with the
fretboard yeah just practice and I
actually recommend it to every musician
because if you're just practicing here
uh you don't know what is more dominant
necessarily is it this or is it your
motor skills if you just take that away
and do it here you know you've got it so
I'm glad that that happened and that I
learned how to do that and in terms of
like learning
fast cuz like I had to like learn how to
well I had to try to absorb a lot of
information in a short amount of time
when I did have the
instrument I kind of
would like do things in bursts like even
in that half an hour I would just go
like play for a couple minutes and then
I'd stop for like a minute and then I'd
do it again and I noticed there was like
a huge difference between the first time
and the second time whereas if I just
kept repeating stuff it would be like
much slower
well what did you do in the in that
minute just hang out just integrate like
yeah I just like my brain it's like my
brain was telling me like just chill out
for a sec that's enough information let
me let me take a second to integrate
that yeah that's what at least what it
felt like to me and the most hilarious
thing happened a couple months ago I
know you're friends with Andrew huberman
so he put out some clip which was a part
of one of his podcasts about learning
and he said that there was some research
done on learning fast and that if you
practice
something for you know a minute or so
and then you let your brain rest for 30
seconds or a minute that in that 30
seconds or a minute your brain does the
repetition 20 to 30 times faster and in
reverse and I was like whoa that's so
cool cuz that's what I used to do when I
was a kid like now there's science that
proves that which is really cool from
you know for musicians to know that that
that's a good way to practice
efficiently CU you know like some
musicians they're like practicing for
six seven eight hours a day I've never
done that I've never practiced more than
an hour a day even now like I've just
just that's my technique and it works
are you uh also practicing in your head
sometimes now I'm not practicing as much
I'm more always writing songs in my head
so that's I like silence that's why I
love being in the empty hotel room and
being alone or you know songs come to me
while I'm showering or walking around
doing the dishes or occasionally when
I'm hanging out with friends or like
Comedians and people just like say shit
and I'll be like that's a cool line just
like jot it down my phone so it's not
always musical it's sometimes lyrical
it's more lyrical than musical now
because it's like for me it's
like there's so much music in the world
if I'm going to write a song I want I
want the song to be about something
interesting and so yeah the words matter
to me yeah and the right word
can can have so much power it's crazy
like we said Leonard Cohen and then
they're often simple the really powerful
ones are simple and like you when you
mentioned Hallelujah you know he wrote
like 80 verses to Hallelujah before he
narrowed it down to like four and it
took him like 15 years to write that
song so some writers will do that like
and then other writers just vomit it out
and it's and it's
beautiful like I've heard that Bob Dylan
or joury Mitchell they're like they're
fast writers they just kind it kind of
comes out that makes me feel so good to
know Leonard Koh wrote so many verses of
that like that that was uh that was so
deliberately crafted yeah extensively
rigorously
crafted he just would spend
months and years and constantly refining
refining you have songs like that for
yourself or you ref for many years it's
song dependent some just flow out and
it's like oh there it is everything's
there and then other songs it's like you
might have started it with music and
there's some words that come out and
then trying to fill in the rest of the
words sometimes it can be like a square
pig in a round hole and other times it's
like oh no I can you know it it it
depends sometimes it becomes like a math
problem and hopefully it doesn't cuz you
just want to say what's right for the
song and usually when you you know write
it all together like the lyric and the
melody and the chords and everything's
kind of developing at once at least for
the first draft that's very very helpful
mhm like sonheim used to write like that
just like he wouldn't move on until like
he he would just go this way whereas for
me it's just like I'll just go with what
seems to be coming naturally and I'll
just let it be what it is and then you
come back and you say okay well what
what what do I have to do to this now
like what's needed just to uh Linger on
the learning
process um what would you recommend for
young musicians and how to get
good what are the different paths a
person can take to understand it deeply
enough to create something special
I think first and foremost understanding
why you are playing music if it's
because you have something that you're
trying to express or that you're just in
love with expression itself with art
itself those are great
reasons
um to to start this journey the why
should be I think the why is really
important because it's a jagged
lifestyle and there's a lot in it and so
if you don't have your purpose if you're
not centered in your purpose then all
that that Jagged lifestyle is probably
going to get to you Jagged it's Jag yeah
it's Jagged it's it's all over the place
it's uncertain it's one thing one moment
and a completely different thing another
moment you never know what's going to
happen and if you thrive on variety
which I love variety um then it's it's
perfect but also every human being needs
a certain amount of certainty in
structure and so it's the certainty can
come from your inner knowing knowing
that you're doing exactly what you want
to be doing and knowing what your
purpose is in in doing it in this
expression otherwise you're just kind of
like a leaf blowing in the
wind like in the early days touring just
playing clubs seems like tough yeah it's
a lot yeah it's a lot of of like the
physical labor aspect of it is really
hard playing on stage to to two people
or 2,000 or 20,000 that doesn't make a
difference I mean it makes a difference
to the ticket sales which informs how
what level of uh luxury you might have
on the road or not but other than that
it's just people there listening to
music the music doesn't
change does it make it tougher when it's
two people versus 200 no so even if
nobody recognizes whatever the thing
you're doing no because the the idea is
to be doing like having a great
conversation on
stage the audience can come and go yeah
I mean I I always like at like there's
certain points in shows where I'm I'm
just like I consciously I'm like oh yes
there's an audience over there cuz I'm
so like wrapped up in whatever's
happening on stage you forget yourself
well maybe I'm remembering myself oh wow
damn DN call back somehow feels like
one okay uh you think every instrument
is its own journey is you play guitar
you play bass you sing just the the
Mastery of an instrument or let's avoid
the word Mastery the understanding of an
instrument is its own thing or they
somehow
like physical manifestations of the same
thing it's both you know like every
instrument has its strength
Beauty
limitations range like possible range
that can you know be extended to some
degree or another depending on who you
are like trumpet or something you know
like certain people can hit higher notes
than others blah blah blah but um that
being said we're all playing the same 12
or 24 or however you divide the octave
that many notes you know we're all
playing the same notes so in that sense
it's all the same thing it's just music
music or better yet it's just art or
expression but yeah every instrument has
you know you got to go through the the
physical the physical aspect of it the
motor skills and all of that and
hopefully you get through that really
quickly so you can get to the
expression quickly because if you get
stuck in just that first phase that's be
really boring yeah but that's a that's a
pretty long phase the
technical the the the technical skill
required to
really play an instrument for some
people it's a long thing and some people
it's short