Kind: captions
Language: en
she found like $40,000 in cash in my
freezer one night so she's like what is
going on you know and so we have this
conversation and I tell her
look people are looking for me who law
enforcement which ones all of them you
know she's like that doesn't even what
for what I
go mostly bank fraud and she's like well
how are they not finding you mhm I mean
everybody you know people know you like
you know your general contractor which I
met 4 months before this guy 6 months
before this was two months before you
know she's like so and so so and so so
and I'm like right right well I said
well she's like I mean they've got your
name they've got your I go well that's
identity theft and she was like what do
you mean I said well my name's not you
know my name's not it's not Joseph
Carter and what is your what is your
name I go look you know it's it's you
don't need don't even worry about it
the following is a conversation with
Matthew Cox a con man recently released
from federal prison where he served 13
years for bank fraud mortgage fraud
identity theft passport fraud and other
charges he has admitted guilt to all of
it he has written true crime stories of
many of his fellow prisoners and now he
continues this work by interviewing
criminals about their crimes on his
YouTube channel that I recommend called
inside true
crime exploring the mind of a criminal
is exploring human nature at the
extremes often in its most raw and
Illuminating form and that is something
I definitely want to do with this
podcast to understand the human mind and
everything it is capable
of this is Alex Freedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Matthew
Cox what was the first crime you
committed the first mortgage I ever did
a mortgage is me borrowing money from a
bank to buy a house yeah how can you
find a way to commit crime in this how
can you do fraud in this space it's it's
very difficult for the average guy to
commit fraud because there's so many
safeguards set up um you know if you
were to go in and say um I make $300,000
a year okay well we want your W2 we want
your pay stuffs we're going to call your
employer we're going to check to make
sure your employer how long they've been
Incorporated we're going to check to
make sure they're registered we're going
it's like ah your whole plan fell apart
you know because the average guy can't
do that he can't even come up with the
with the pace7 W2 so the average person
you know or I'm going to put down this
much money but you're going to borrow
that money from the seller you know okay
well then they start asking for bank
statements where did the money come from
how long has it been in your bank like
you can't even have it put in your bank
for a day get a letter you know it's got
to have been there for 90 days or 60
days depending on the bank and and so
there's all these ways for the average
person it's very difficult to commit
fraud the average guy that works at
Walmart and makes $60,000 a year and
he's been there for five years and he
saved his deposit like it's a very
that's really the guy that those
transactions are set up for to borrow a
mortgage from Bank of America that's the
guy they're looking for so to commit
fraud in this space you have to
misrepresent some aspect of your ident
identity of how much you're worth how
much money you have this kind of stuff
right you have to be able to to lie to
the bank anytime you lie to the bank
you've committed fraud and it's funny
when I was you know doing it I would say
ah it's it's in the gray area there's no
gray area you're either lying in some
capacity or you're not
so it's for instance the very first loan
I did I I wided out um my
borrower had been 30 days late on her
uh on a rent so they're really looking
at the last two years so when when you
go in the bank and they most of what
they're asking is a is a two-year window
they're saying how long have you been on
their job they care about two years and
how long have you been at your um at
your residency they're looking for two
years now you could be at three places
in two years that's fine as long as you
consistent consistently paid for two
years well she had been in an apartment
complex but she'd been 30 days late now
she caught it up
but she was late Bank the bank doesn't
want to lend you money if if you've been
30 days late so I was a broker and I
whed out the 30-day late I just got rid
of it and my manager is the person that
told me to do it she said it'll be fine
and she was right it was what did it
feel like so that was the first
fraudulent action you committed yeah I I
mean I you know I I was I was worried
you know I always say you know I sweat
bullets for you know four or five days
you know but I mean I I I was concerned
and and I don't know that I was
concerned that I had broken the
law uh I was concerned because I was
behind on my on my truck payment I was
behind on my mortgage like I had banked
on being a mortgage broker and I'd gone
deep deep behind on all my bills to do
this so in the last minute when this
loan isn't going to close and I have to
commit fraud to make that happen and the
idea my fear was they were going to
figure it out and maybe I'd get fired
you know I didn't think I was going to
go to jail because my manager assured me
you're not going to jail like they
you'll get fired at at
best so my concern was they were going
to catch it and I get fired and I
wouldn't get paid like I needed that
money so bad so maybe paint the picture
here where were you working who was the
manager the manager what it's funny cuz
I I I don't think I ever really
mentioned this it her name was uh
Gretchen Zas she eventually I don't mind
saying she eventually got ended up going
to jail for fraud her name was Gretchen
Zas and she was a manager I was working
for a company called Eagle lending and
it was in
Tampa and I this was like my first month
so my very first deal three or four
weeks into it into that first month and
I walk in I put the file in in front of
my manager she looks through everything
you know oh great good good and put this
one piece of paper over here mhm and sat
there and then when she was done I said
uh what's what's going on she goes
perfect files perfect she goes but your
borrow was 30-day late on her rent and
she says that that's it's done she's
like that's a deal killer and I was like
oh my gosh you know what do I do and I
remember she pulled out a w thing a
white out the white out not the sticks
with the one and she started going and I
was like what she goes if I was you and
she handed she I'd wi it out make a copy
stick it back in the file yeah she said
it'll be fine and I went I could I was
like that that's fraud I could go to
jail and she goes and she was like it's
they're never going to catch it she said
look we do stuff I do stuff all the time
she said they're not going to catch it
and nobody's calling the FBI she say the
worst case that that worst case scenario
if underwriting catches
it then
they'll fire you that's it nobody's
calling you're not going to jail and I
was you know I trusted her I was like
okay and so I I did what she said I
stuck it in the file and I mean look
like I said for four or five days I was
like oh my God I'm so scared how old do
you at this point probably 29 I think it
was 29 you know like I had gone to
college and so many things had not
worked out you know I got a degree in
Fine Arts it's not it's not a there's
not a lot of people looking for anyone
with a fine arts degree and uh you know
I tried my I try to be
a uh try to be a an insurance adjuster
tried that for about a year year and a
half that didn't work out uh ended up
ended up working
construction for a few
years and you know so finally the girl I
was dating said you got to be a mortgage
broker you know she's just had just
started as a mortgage in the mortgage
industry and she was like you have to do
this like you were born to do this this
is perfect for you what did she see in
you she said just you're a Salesman and
I was like cuz I was like you know I
barely balanced my checkbook like I
don't I don't know anything about
numbers and she's like it has nothing to
do with that it's sales it's putting
together deals you know you're good at
that you're good at negotiating you're
you know you're a natural sales
salesman and I figured i' I need to try
something so what aspect of mortgages is
sales and deal making and what aspects
require the Charisma that you clearly
have well one you've got you have
clients that have lots of options they
can go to Bank of America they can go to
Sun Trust they can go to Chase they have
options if they have perfect credit I
ended up working for a company that was
a subprime lender and those people
didn't have a lot of options by Honestly
by the time they got to that to Eagle
lending their options were over so what
end ends up happening is you're
negotiating with sellers you know you
would think that a lot of the stuff that
in that industry that real estate
agents should do you the Brokers end up
doing because real estate agents are are
used to you meet them at the house or
they take you to several houses they you
know they they open the door they walk
around they write up a contract that's
legit a legit contract and you already
you're already
pre-approved everything works out but
subprime that's not the case you got
borrowers with horrific job history they
don't have enough of the down payment
they can't maybe they have the down
payment but they don't have the closing
cost so you have to go to the real
estate agent and say listen I need you
to raise the purchase price and have the
the seller pay the closing costs which
is legal but that's not to a degree but
that's not how they wrote up the
contract so now you're having to get
them to rewrite the contract or you're
have you're you know there's little
things you're trying to do and the more
the more deals you get done and the more
you deal with certain real estate agents
the more you start to
realize that they're you know you know
which ones are completely above board
and which ones are willing to twist the
rules and a lot of it works on personal
relationships right right for some
reason people tend to like me and trust
me yeah I don't know why it's it's it
hasn't worked out for so many people but
people naturally seem to trust me and so
if I say hey I can close the loan but
you got to do this it'll be cool don't
worry we do it all the time it's like my
third loan and you know I I've been
doing this for years and they go okay
and then they raise the purchase price
they add some money they have the seller
of the house give the borrower some
money they stick it in the bank or they
put it in the in escro at the closing
company like now you're starting to
massage deals what was the second time
you committed a crime so what how did it
start to evolve from the white out well
I mean when that went through you know
I I think a normal person probably would
have
said wow it was a onetime thing got away
with it I'm good but for me it just
emboldened me MH like I just got a chat
for like I don't know what it was 25
$3,500 I was thrilled and by that time I
was already working on another deal but
that
guy he made I forget something like he
had made like let's say
$45,000 the year before in his
W2 if you based on his based on his
current track record or or his year-to
date of his pay St he made just enough
money but if you factored in last year's
W2 he was shy so if I change that 45,000
to 51,000
then he could the loan closes I get a
check for 3500 bucks he gets into a
house I'm doing him a favor you know I'm
doing God's work so I fix it it I kick
back I'm terrified a little bit you know
worried about it sure enough it closes
four or five days later they call me
he's ready to close a week later we
close I get a check next guy that comes
in I mean I got very very
quickly I was concerned do you have a
house do you have a deal is it ready I
can get you I can get you done now if
you were in bankruptcy or something
there's some things you just you pull
their credit and you just couldn't help
them if they were if they had a 550
credit score or something and no job I
mean you know it had to be within reason
but very quickly it was changing W2s
changing pay subs changing appraisals um
you know fixing verif like I said
verifications of
rent so it evolved very quickly for me
and you're essentially helping people
that's what I told myself giving him a
chance people that have been really
struggling financially in life so you've
been telling yourself that this is
you're doing a good good thing for
people I told myself that right up until
that those loans were solid and I was
helping those people out right up until
I went to prison and and I was in prison
and I had to write the government asked
me to write an ethics and fraud course
for to help teach the nation's mortgage
brokers um you know all loan officers
and Brokers have to take I think it's
nine hours of continuing education every
single year and I was approached to
write the ethics course and it was about
that time and about the same period of
time I was writing uh writing a book my
book and that kind of you I started
reflecting on what I had done you know
and the truth is
like and this is a horrible thing to say
cuz the first time I ever heard somebody
say this I remember thinking oh that's a
horrible thing to say some people should
not own an house they shouldn't be
allowed to borrow they're not in a
position financially you know and and
there were there were many occasions
where I put someone in a house that they
100% swore they could afford it was I
was helping them I told myself I was
helping them and a year and a half later
they're going into foreclosure their
stuff's on the corner they don't know
where to
go and the truth is is that I I'm not
smarter than the actuaries that came up
with those underwriting
guidelines so in this whole process how
are you making money are you taking a
percentage broker fee yeah I charge a
broker fee or you charge yield spread so
yield spread is let's say the interest
rate is 8% interest if I charge them 25
basis points over the 8% so I charge
them 8 and a quarter you know 8.25 then
I get 1% of the loan back as a fee so if
I charge them
85% I get two points back so if it's a
$100,000 piece of property and the bank
says your interest rate is going to be
8% and I tell you
8.5 and I'm charging you a $3,500 broker
fee now I'm making
$5,500 so on even a $100,000 loan you
could make a nice chunk of change I mean
it's so how much gray area is here you
said that there really isn't when you're
lying or not but I mean you're feels
like there is it well every time I
changed something it wasn't gray area I
just committed I just committed fraud at
this level you're either you either meet
the guidelines or someone has massaged
it in such a way that they've committed
fraud that's it and there's now there's
there's tons of ways where you can
commit fraud
and they just can't figure it out does
that make sense like I I mean I've
you've committed fraud and it's like
they've look at the entire they look at
all the documents and they double check
everything and they know there's fraud
in here they just can't find it just
because they can't find it doesn't mean
doesn't mean it was exactly doesn't mean
it wasn't fraud as part of this you did
a lot of fascinating things one of the
things you did you talked about creating
synthetic
people meaning uh creating fake
identities what do what does it take to
do that to do that well so your credit
profile is made up of your you know your
your at your name date of birth your
address and you know your social
security number and you know those are
the kind of you know and then there's
other things where you
work that sort of
thing but what people don't realize is
there's so many people out there that
think that the credit bureau is already
know who you are right but the truth is
the first time the credit bureau has
ever heard about you was you told them
the first time you applied for a credit
card you they created a credit profile
at that moment prior to that they had no
idea so the first time you apply you
give them your your full name date of
birth social security number and your
address and they create a credit profile
and they say hey no record found of this
person he has no credit nothing probably
got denied well what I realized through
the course of because eventually I ended
up
leaving that one company and I opened my
own mortgage
company when I opened that mortgage
company I
was I was on the inside does that make
sense like I wasn't a I wasn't just a
broker that was sitting out with
everybody else and would periodically
come in and ask questions or would call
underwriting and but really didn't
understand what was happening and what
exactly what the underwriting guidelines
were now I was actually talking to the
underwriters and you're you're talking
to the um to the owners of The Lending
institutions and the banks and you're
talking to all of the account Executives
and now it wasn't just Eagle lending I
was talking to there were 40 different
account Executives coming in on a weekly
basis trying to get us to sign up with
their lender and they're on the inside
telling you coming in showing you uh
programs and saying look if your
borrower is you know
self-employed we don't ask for this or
this we just ask for them to say they're
self-employed like liar loans You'
you've heard the term liar loans okay um
no doc loans where they don't ask for
any documentation if he's got over like
let's say a 700 credit score and he says
he's been a plumber and he works for
himself then he's got over a 700 credit
score he just has to say he's worked for
himself for over two years and they
don't ask any they don't ask for any
documentation he's got the money in the
bank he's got a 700 credit score says
he's been on the job for two years he's
self-employed we're going to raise his
insurance rate by 1%
and and he's got you know that's it he's
he's got the loan so but you start to
you start to know how things work
because I hired a bunch of Brokers to
work underneath me and when they would
get
caught I would get the phone call so I
get the phone call from the owner of a
bank or a lending Institute you know A
lender and that lender says hey Matt we
got a problem I'm like what's up he's
like he's like listen we we caught a
fake W2 I'm like what do you what do you
mean yeah your your broker soand so sent
us a file and this person had there's
two fake W2s and we're assuming the pay
subs are fake and I'm like are you
serious how how did you even catch that
and they go oh well here's what we did
we checked with
sunbiz.com you know sunbiz.gov which is
the Secretary of State's website that
registers corporations and we checked
and the tax ID number didn't match and I
now I know every W2 has to have a
matching uh tax ID number for whatever
corporation uh issued it so there's a
sequence of checks they do to detect
fraud on different documents like W2s
and then you're slowly learning slowly
yeah exactly what's the process for
detecting I mean I had a pretty good
understanding anyway yeah but so I'm
starting to learn that understanding
yeah so I'm putting these things
together and I remember one time I had a
woman come in and she came in and she
had perfect credit she had like 7 50
credit scores I mean it was perfect and
she came in and uh one of the Brokers
came in and said hey man he's can I show
you something I was like yeah what's up
he he goes look he said I've got this
This Woman's W2s here I said okay I
looked at him and he goes here's your
credit report and he goes here's the you
know application this is the this is the
social security number I went all right
and he said this is the social security
number on the W2 and I went okay keep in
mind you go to get a car loan or credit
card they ask for these things so and he
was like and I'm really shocked he even
noticed it I probably might not have
even caught it but he they were
different and I went really and he goes
yeah he said um so I I did you know she
just brought him in you know she's here
and I was like oh bring her in here so
she came in sat down and said listen
here's what we just found and she was
like oh okay you know what I don't want
the loan I I just I go no no no no I
said listen you're getting the loan you
got a 750 credit score like I don't care
what we have to do we're getting you the
loan I just want to know what's going on
mhm how are how did you how did you get
750 credit scores under this social
security number when clearly this is
your real social security number you've
been working for this company for 10
years and your credit profile says it's
only like three years old and I was like
what happened and what she told me she
did was she had been she went through a
divorce she had been married for 10
years used her husband's I mean his
surname for 10 years so she has no
credit under her maiden name MH but when
they got divorced she switched to her
maiden
name um because when she pulled tried to
get anything in her in her um husband's
surname it was denied bad credit so he
had bad credit their credit went bad so
he switched to her she switched to her
name and a friend told her if she needed
to get her electric or anything turned
on she could use her name and use her
daughter's or son's Social Security
number which was like a four-year-old
kid y so she used that and it went
through she had to put a deposit down
but it went through at least wasn't
denied so that went through then she
went and she applied for an apartment
with
that sure enough it went through she had
no credit but they said you don't have
bad credit so she said once she moved
into the apartment she then started
getting these preapproved credit cards
so she she goes but I knew I had applied
there using my son's social security
number let's say so she started filling
those out and sure enough she got a
credit card and then she got two and
then she got a pre-approval from Ford
Motor Credit she went and got herself a
new car got approved she'd been making
the payments ever since she has 750
credit scores she thought she'd try her
hand at buying a house in his name in
his social security number
and we caught it and she got a house in
that name we we closed it I just was
like wow like this is great can I ask
you a question about that because it
seems like she's able to pay for
everything right so while this is highly
illegal is it unethical is it
like it's it's unethical in that it's
messing with the system on which a lot
of people
rely but it feels like there's some
aspect of the system that's broken in
that it doesn't give people like her a
second chance she could have claimed
bankruptcy and then 2 years later listen
two years out of bankruptcy you can go
into Bank of America and get a
conventional mortgage
assuming you have perfect credit outside
the bankruptcy you have the down payment
you make enough money there's a whole
bunch of you know a bunch of uh
underwriting guidelines you have to meet
but that's possible but you're right for
instance she wasn't getting an apartment
using with her bad credit she wasn't
getting her utilities turned on she
wasn't getting any of those things done
so getting your life back on track is
just harder it's extremely hard so
there's a temptation to take the
shortcut and the shortcut is often going
to be illegal right and she stumbled in
into it but she
basically explained it to me and I I
mean I don't think she had walked out of
the of my brokerage office before I went
and I just started making up you know
names and I think I went I went and into
our file cabinet and grabbed some
people's uh 1040s which we had you
know their tax returns and looked up
children's Social Security numbers and
just grabbed some random kid Social
Security numbers and their name and went
and pulled them and sure and you know
but I changed their date of birth to be
an adult pulled it and sure enough it
came up no file found you know it didn't
say fraud alert or fraud or anything
they didn't say mismatch this mismatch
that didn't say anything it just said
you know no file found well
then we went and we pulled applied for a
couple credit cards using a child social
security number and then we went and
pulled Our Own Credit Report and sure
enough it didn't say no no file found it
just said that there had been two
inquiries
applying for credit cards so I was like
wow like that's a credit
profile so that turns into
me going to Social
Security and calling or calling Social
Security and trying to get them to issue
me Social Security numbers to adults
that had never had a social security
number issued to them I need to get
Social Security number to give me a
clean social security number but I
called up and of course you know I'm a
novice I don't really know what I'm
doing so I call up and I say hey uh yeah
I was I'm uh never had a social security
number issued and they were like how old
are you and I was like I'm 31 years old
you know and they were yeah that's not
possible do you have a driver's license
uh yeah you have a bank account yeah you
have a Social Security number uh bring
your driver's license in and we'll we'll
pull it up okay well that's not going to
happen hang up call back hi um my
son is seven years old or three years
old and he he had never had a social
security number issued oh okay was he
born in a hospital yes well he has one
he has one go ahead and uh get your son
come in here no I'm not doing that hang
up call back so I called back probably
times and
eventually uh someone said I I kept
altering it kept altering what I was
saying till I got to the point where I
was saying
saying my son was born with a midwife
not in the hospital and the pediatrician
told us that we needed to go we need to
get Social Security to issue a social
security number and they would say well
he should have issued it but that does
happen sometimes so bring your son in
and we'll you know you can fill out the
paperwork we'll have one issued you
first we'll check to see he never had
one issued and if he hasn't we'll issue
one and so then it turned into my son is
out of the country and I need this and
then that turned into oh I'm sorry well
how old is he I was like um you know
he's three and they go well I'm sorry if
he's over the age of 12 months old he
has to come in hang up the phone call
back my son is 10 months old he's out of
the country born with a midwife never
had a social security number and then
they go oh okay that's fine just get his
birth certificate and a his shot record
and you can come in fill out the
paperwork we'll get issue you a social
security number and that's what I did so
I figured out how to create a birth
certificate you know I ordered the
security paper you know when uh where
you make a copy it says you know void if
copied so I ordered had to order a bunch
of that and I went online and figured
out how to make a a fake birth
certificate it was great too because
like the county actually they give you a
a blank form and then they actually show
you what it looks like filled out like a
handwritten one filled out so I knew if
he was born this day he got these shots
U two months later he got these shot six
months later he got these shot so I just
filled it out I even had to order a a
seal so you have to have a seal that
says like Hillsboro County vital
statistics or Richland County vital
statistics or something and I couldn't
get anybody to make that so I changed it
to like Richland County Office of
virtual um records and then I took like
220 grit sandpaper and and and hit it
over and over and over again to wear it
down and then I State you know I did the
embossment on the on the corner and you
know I printed it on the security paper
embossed it nobody looks at those things
you could see Richland County you know
you you could kind of see that and
really they just grab it and they go
like this this is what you realize after
you when I started getting started
getting uh driver's licenses issu issued
by uh by the State DMV right the state I
I figured out eventually it was easier
to just go into the DMV and have them
give me a a driver's license then
actually make one so but you notice they
would just grab the thing they'd feel
the form and go okay like they don't
even look at it so which is upsetting if
you put as much work into these
documents as I am for them to go okay
yeah that's good sit over there I felt
like going like hey bro like take a look
at this this is artwork yeah but they're
looking for the lwh hanging fruit of
crappy fraud right yeah this stuff was
right through so okay so so birth
certificate gets you a uh Social
Security number so it's it's it's
interesting because you've also you
you've done a lot of different
approaches to um creating synthetic
people there's homeless people involved
so sometimes it's grounded in real
people or real
names and then you're right like some
part part is fake some part is real
sometimes and sometimes it's completely
all fake right cuz now I have the name I
have the social security number and
what's great is they mail you what's
even better is you get then you get to
pick whatever name you want you know
because when you pick your child's name
he doesn't even have to have your last
name you pick any name so I would pick a
name and I'd just say oh my wife's last
name is this if it they question it
which they never did but you know I've
got a social security number and then I
would go apply for credit cards and i'
get denied of course but they would all
offer me a secured credit card so I I'd
then fill out the secured credit card
and i' send them send the bank the money
and they would give me a secured credit
card for $500 $300 1,000 whatever it was
and then once you start making the
payments I pulled the credit and a
credit profile shows up saying that this
31y old
man with a social security number that I
know was issued you know a couple months
ago has three three credit cards they
don't even say secure they just say
there's like this credit card is $500 it
was issued by Bank of America this one
was issued by Capital 1 this one would
so I've got three of them but I had no
credit
scores so at that point I kind of kicked
back and waited I just kept making
payments and I remember thinking to
myself I'll bet you they don't that the
credit bureaus don't generate credit
scores for at least a year and I was
like God this is going to be a year-long
process and while that was happening I
started other I was starting other ones
cuz I figured at least in a year I'll
have a bunch of these secure you know
these um we call them like Phantom
borrowers but now they call them
synthetic identities so at least I would
have these synthetic identities and
maybe I could do something with them but
what happened was at six months I went
and I randomly pulled the guy's credit
you know the person's credit and
705 credit scores 705 701 695 I was like
oh my my you only needed a 620 to borrow
to get a 95% loan from the bank so I was
like oh my God this is in this is
amazing sure enough a month later the
other ones I had started all of them Bam
Bam Bam so what do you do with a phantom
borrower like what how do you make money
on this so I think most people if you
were just like a scammer a fraudster you
would you would probably just get credit
cards and maybe build up that history or
maybe try and borrow a personal loan uh
which is limited you know it's personal
loans are used to be you used to be you
could go
to uh an FDIC insured bank which borrows
money
those you know the personal loans they
lend out at the max $115,000 you know so
you could do that so you can go through
this whole process creating a fake
identity getting a card paying it off
building up credit and then you get
$115,000 at the end or right you get 15
maybe you know if you want to keep
making the payments you know if you
could wait a year you could probably get
15,000 uh maybe you could maybe get 20
30,000 and a bunch of little smaller
ones you know you get 7500 cuz I did I
did there was a $7,500 from City Bank
you know $5,500 from American General so
you maybe get what 25,000 you know maybe
$30,000 in personal loans maybe you can
you could you could then apply for you
can maybe get another 20 or 30,000 in
regular credit cards you know 10,000
here 8,000 5,000 and then you go to the
lower department store cards and you go
a Home Depot you get a th000 you get 500
so it ends up being maybe you can get 50
60,000 maybe if you really good you
could get up to 80 or $100,000 in credit
cards and personal loans if you really
knew what you were doing but per person
per identity per identity but I had the
ability
to to leverage that perfect those
perfect credit profiles against
properties and I mean ultimately that's
what I end up doing and and so each one
of those identities was
worth you know a few million can you
explain how that works so uh to leverage
them against property so how does that
work with the mortgage so what I did
eventually I mean this would like is
down the road but you know I mean at
this point when things are just my whole
life had kind of gone off the The
Rails I was on federal probation and and
so what I did decided I was going to do
was start running a scam a much larger
scam and what I was going to do was it I
was going to start flipping properties
right like buy houses cheap fix them up
and sell them there's an area of Tampa
called eore
City so I was going to start flipping
houses in eore city and you know I
thought okay I can I can buy these
houses for you could buy a really crappy
house at that time for 50 $60,000 let's
say 50 and then you could put $25,000
into it in renovations you could
renovate it for 25 and maybe you could
get an appraisal for a
hundred so I thought what I could do is
I
can I can buy these houses renovate them
and sell them to you know regular
people but I also had been working on
the synthetic identities
and then I thought well or I could just
sell them to synthetic identities and
then I wouldn't have to dump 25,000 into
it right and these guys are perfect they
have perfect credit I can provide W2s
and pay stubs because by this point I'm
manufacturing
businesses so I've got I've got I've
Incorporated businesses I've got
websites for the businesses W2s payub so
these guys have these guys look perfect
so I figure I'll buy these properties
for 50,000 sell it to these guys for 100
maybe I'll pocket 40 or 50,000 I don't
really have to do
anything but that seemed shortsighted so
I thought what' be even better is that
if I did a little bit of Renovations and
then I sold it for much higher maybe I
put 10,000 clean up the outside of it
because these guys don't care what the
inside of of the property it looks like
you know they they're not they don't
exist
so and then I but I can't how am I going
to get an appraisal for
$100,000 well do you you know how
appraisals work okay so the Bank sends
an appraiser out or at that time you
could provide an appraisal they can
review it so they'll do what's called a
Desktop review they review it they
review it
on um on the computer they never go out
to the property or they send someone out
they they call that you know it's like a
field review they send someone out and
they just look at the house they don't
go in it though so I have to clean out
the clean up the outside of the house so
what I did was but the problem is is if
your house is you're trying to sell that
house for let's say 200,000 the other
houses they have to pick three
comparable sales in the area that are
also going to support a a
$200,000 sales price well there's no
other house is selling for 200,000 near
this house so I thought if I want to get
these things apprais for 200
250,000 I have to have comparable sales
and that appraisal is going to be
reviewed
so what I did
was I started I went out and I bought
this house for
50,000
and I recorded the sale at
200,000 So when you buy a house for
$100,000 you pay $700 in dock
stamps but if you pay the extra an extra
700 bucks the sale shows up for
$200,000 I'm buying these things for 50
so I'm paying $350 and I'm just paying
an an extra
$1,00
50 so I'm so it ends up being you know
$1,400 but the but the sale shows up at
$ 200,000 on a house that's a a crack
house I bought for
$50,000 now I go I trim the trees we mow
the yard we clean up the porch we put
the porch rail on maybe we paint it real
nice we black out all the windows you
can't see inside um but from the from
the curb it looks great and I get an
appraisal so I do that with that house I
do that with another house all within a
mile so I buy four houses knowing I can
use the all there's a subject and three
comparables for all of them so the first
thing I did is I bought four houses for
50,000 60,000 40,000 and I recorded the
values at you know 210 200
190 so I get an appraiser to come out
there he appraises it he said of course
he says it's horrible but there's
comparables here now of course it is in
bad shape and he says it's in bad shape
but I I go ahead and I correct all that
so I correct it so now if you if you
review the appraisal and you're in
California or even if you drive your car
down your the appraiser comes to the
house and looks at it from the street it
looks fine but the truth is I've got
$60,000 into this property and you're
appraising it for $200,000 so the bank's
ready not they're not going to lend 200
but they'll lend 190 so the bank is
ready to lend
this synthetic
borrower $190,000 on a house that I have
$60,000 in so I walk so I schedule a
closing and we close on the house and I
walk away with
$60,000 you know and and the thing is
like the problem was is by the time I
got to this point I knew so many people
in the industry I nobody had to really
at that point show up although I've had
people show up for the synthetic inds
and signed for them almost all the
closings nobody ever showed up I just
showed up and said to the title uh to
the title agency and said hey my
borrower he's at work right now he can't
make it can I just take the file and
I'll have him sign all the documents at
his work and I'll bring them back he's
like an hour and a half away from here
I'll be back in two or three hours
they're like oh wow that man Matt thank
you so much and they would give it to me
and I'd go sit in the parking lot and i'
sign all the documents and i' wait an
hour or two and I'd come back in and say
here you go how how are you able to keep
all this in your mind because you have
to not slip up in any of these
conversations it's pretty easy for me to
for me to keep
them everything in the correct category
does that make sense like it's it's I'm
not great at a lot of things but this I
was very good at but well there's these
Phantom people that exist and they were
becoming real people in your mind is
then like you're able to tell good
stories with with those people right
like because if you're talking to the
appraiser if you're talking to the
everybody in involved well keep in mind
the appraiser almost never meets the
borrower never not even like 99.99 99%
of the time they never meet him but you
have to talk about them yeah so I guess
what I'm asking is you're able to
converse fluently about these synthetic
identities yeah they they all had
different jobs they all had all the jobs
were basically they were all on the job
for 5 years they were all was a lot of
there's a template yeah
exactly but I got it yeah listen all
matter of fact almost every one of them
had the same birth date you know so
because I you know who knows um there's
so it it yeah it wasn't difficult and
keep in mind the a lot of the the
Brokers barely ever meet um meet the bar
they call in on the phone but it didn't
matter anyway cuz I'm walking and saying
I got a slam dunk deal for you and
they're like oh wow Matt you got the W2s
the pay dubs you've got all the you got
all their uh their rental history you
have everything done it's perfect thank
you so much they're happy to do it hey I
print up the docs and I'll have them go
sign it great wow thank you you know
assuming they didn't already know about
it almost everybody involved in this by
the time I was done was involved there
was probably 15 or 20 people that all
knew what was going on the full of it
they knew the full depth of it yes yeah
at yeah maybe not 100% everything but
they definitely knew this is fraud and
they were still going along with it yeah
yeah keep in mind that even when I give
you an
example one of
my you know let's say and this happened
with almost all of them was he would buy
five
houses so the guy but what happens the
basic design was I I buy the
houses I record the values
higher
and this person buys all five houses
refinances them he ends up borrowing a
little bit over a million dollars in his
name uh then of course then I go and I I
get um personal loans from several Banks
I get credit cards I run up all of his
credit cards by this point I've got 10
$20,000 worth of credit cards in the
guy's name so the guys are all worth
like a million million and change well
once I stop paying you start getting
letters from the collection companies
right from the banks you know then they
sell them off so after about three
months you're getting tons of letters
and what I would do
is I would take my borrower's name I
would go online and I would find or I go
in the newspaper and I would
find I would find an article about let's
say like a 12C car pile up you know so
there's you know there a huge accident
on I4 it's very dangerous
so there's a 12C car pile up and someone
in the accident was life flighted to
Tampa General
hospital I
would cut and paste that
article and I would just insert my
borrower's name into the article saying
that you know Brandon green was life
flighted to Tampa General Hospital is
currently in critical condition I would
then print that article out on newsprint
I didn't make a copy of the cut it up
make copy of the newsprint highlight his
name and I would write a letter from
Brandon
Green's fictional sister to the
collection companies saying several
months ago my brother was in a horrible
car accident he is currently they've got
the article they have the highlighted
name he clearly was in in this uh in
this accident he is currently in a coma
and the doctors say even if he wakes up
from the coma he will never work again
that you know so you might as well just
foreclose on stop writing less letters
and take the houses back and that's all
they're looking for is is is a reason at
this point even if they look into
Brandon green they can't figure out if
he's a real person or
not because he's got a social security
he's got and everything went bad at the
same time he's got multiple rental
properties or his primary residence all
of his credit cards went bad everything
went bad we have an excuse we have a
letter that happens people get divorced
they lose their job they get an
accidents it's reasonable when they look
into it all looks legitimate even if
they ordered another appraisal by this
point it's not four comparable sales or
three or four comparable sales by this
point it's like 10 15 20 30 40 50 cuz I
kept making more and more of these guys
what was your just to almost like a
tangent what's your thinking process
there's a lot of cleverness going on
here so like uh the the car pile up as a
solution newspaper and you mail it
are you sitting there alone and thinking
through this like how do you come up
with that idea this a it's a very
interesting a very clever Innovative
idea so at first I I thought about
making like a a fake death certificate
he died you know but I thought I don't
know like what if you know like some of
these places had like you know uh you
know primary mortgage insurance like
what if the primary mortgage insurance
like what if they try and claim cuz he
was dead or like I don't know I don't
know that side I'm like I don't want to
do that I want to do something that's
semi- verifiable and third party it's
like a third party telling you this is
what happened I thought well like the
newspaper you know and you know or do I
claim bankruptcy and I've done that I've
gone and got the bankruptcy forms right
you can go to the bankruptcy court and
they'll give you forms to mail to all of
your uh creditors and you mail them they
stop contacting they wait to be no
located by or notified by the bankruptcy
court but my fear there is you know uh
nobody's ever going to notify them like
I'm not going through bankruptcy for one
of these guys so it was like this is a
this is a better bet than just writing a
letter saying I'm going through a
divorce my wife's keeping those houses
that's her problem you know you could do
there's lots of things you could do but
to me this was they're not going to try
and how do you how do you shut it down
without him dying how do you shut that
down this is how you shut it down he's
in a coma he'll never work
again he was in a car accident here's
the proof he can't even write you I'm a
sister I wrote you the letter it's a
one-time letter that seems to um tie up
all
exactly you know I can only know the ex
exactly how that you know what sparked
that is as much as there were so many
other avenues that I could have gone
that I was I just didn't know I but you
were thinking through all those
different Avenues are you mostly
thinking
alone I mean you know I had guys that I
was bouncing ideas ideas off of there
were other guys that were involved in
the scam you know everybody I think that
scam ended up making like I think the
FBI said it was like 11 and a half
million or something and and you know
but but there were so many other people
that were involved in that scam that
were you know this guy's getting 50 this
guy's getting 20 you know 177,000 20,000
25,000 and you know the we're just doing
it constantly and so the bank would
foreclose on that property they'd take
it
back they' put it back on the MLS they
put it back on the MLS for 100 for
200,000 it wouldn't sell then they drop
it to you know 150 wouldn't sell then
they drop it to 125 130 wouldn't sell
they drop it to 90 and somebody buy it
for like 90 it wasn't worth 90 but by
that point that whole area had we' done
so many houses at that point the whole
area shot up and the the FBI said uh we
did 1009 houses I don't think that's
true
but wow we we when I end up leaving
Tampa after that scam falls apart and
the FBI shows up Forbes came out with an
article whatever six months later and
they
said that the ebore City ZIP code was
one of the top 20 fastest growing um
appraising areas in the country and you
know everybody was like oh that's mad
cuz this place is a dump like this is is
a horrible place like this is and I
remember one time I had talked to a guy
you know years later and he was like ah
all the comparable sales have dried up
like when you left there was just
nothing even close to
200,000 you mentioned right before uh
telling the story of this elaborate scam
that you were on federal probation how
did that happen so I mentioned that I I
own the mortgage company yes right so I
I had started a mortgage company I had
maybe a dozen guys working for me and
and there was fraud you know like I
would say it wasn't all fraud but
whatever 60 70% of it was fraud that
that was going in there and from the
outside of that that business it looked
very
legitimate you know we were an FHA
approved lender we were a VA approved
lender we did conventional probably
signed up with 40 or 50 subprime
lenders
um but but there was a considerable
amount of Fraud and you know it kept
getting you know it it became a game
right you know it you start you I
started getting just more and more
creative like like I said every time I
would get away with something like you
become emboldened by it it's like nice
you know like hey the underwriter's
looking for this and looking for this
and you sit there and go man so that
she's you know that's what am I gonna do
what am I you know what we could do we
could create create our own bank what
yeah here's what we're gonna do we're
going to go on like how do they know if
this Bank exists these people are in
California or they're in New York like
they don't know so what we're going to
do is we're going to go online and keep
in mind this is 20
you know this is 2000 2001 like this is
the
internet's in its infancy still right so
we figure out I remember GoDaddy I think
had just come up with a site where you
could build your own website like how
cool is that so I go online with a buddy
of mine and we create something called
the bank of ebore you know we cut and
pasted things that we like from other
Banks and we got a 1 1800 number you
could call or a 186 whatever it was and
you could call it and it would go to a
voicemail and so we set up this bank and
then I ended up making bank statements
which by this point I already had been
making bank statements to to prove
someone has their down payment because a
lot of times people they have good
enough credit to borrow 95% or 90% but
they don't have their down payment so
we'd raise the purchase price high
enough to cover their 5 or 10% down
payment and we would bring their down
payment for them or we'd have the the
owner of the house bring the down
payment for them and then we would have
a check cut out of the closing statement
to a construction
company that I owned and we get our
money back so they get into the house
for 100% financing or 110% some of them
turned into 130 we want to pay off their
car give them an incentive to
sign um they don't have still don't have
the money to buy it so we're doing all
kinds of insane things well at some
point
remember Gretchen Zas my um my old
manager yeah the original yes she came
and worked for me for a short period of
time and then she and her husband went
and opened their own mortgage company
which you should have known it was going
to be fraudulent from the bgo because it
was called creative financing it was was
yeah create uh CFM creative Finance no
creative creative was the name yeah yeah
creative was in the name oh boy um so
it's really on the nose so she uh she's
doing very
well and and we became very close by the
way we we go on vacation went to Puerto
Rico together um I'm I got married at
the time I got I was married uh our kids
you know play together we babysit we go
to each other's parties we're close
we're good friends and she's got her own
mortgage company she calls me up
periodically and ask me hey can you make
a W2 or hey can you make me a pay stop
sure no problem we're friends that's
what fraudulent friends do so you know
if I needed somebody to to verify rent
or verify somebody's um rental history
or employment she had cell phones she
would answer that sort of thing for me
well what ends up happening
is um she gets in trouble she starts
doing fraudulent loans for some guys you
know and these guys are doing what's
called a cash back scam so they're
they're getting like a half a million
dollar
loan on a house that's
worth $300,000 so they're getting a uh
they're buying the house for whatever
600,000 it's really only worth 300
350 but she happened to be in an area
where she could get it the appraisal
jacked up so they they buy the house
they get2 $300,000
back and um it's it's a it's a straw man
scam right it's a cashback straw man
scam so this a real person that's buying
the house he's got perfect credit but
he's willing he's willing to let to ruin
his credit to get a couple hundred
thousand in his pocket so he never has
any intentions so it's not a synthetic
identity it's not a stolen identity he's
a straw man he's a fake kind of a not a
fake person but he's just a straw man
he's a standing so he stands in he signs
a paperwork he buy buys the house they
end up getting 230,000 well this guy
buys like five houses so it's a two3
million they've lost five 6006
700,000 and these guys never even make
the first payment they just let them go
into forclosure so the bank immediately
investigates and realizes this is fraud
so the FBI comes in they grab Pete and
Gretchen she has to hire an attorney of
course and she doesn't get thrown in
jail or anything they just come to their
office and they they tell them their
invest tigating them they know what's
going on and they they want to talk to
they're like look we want to talk to you
and you're going to be indicted okay so
she comes to me well actually Pete came
to me and said look man can you
refinance our house and get a 75,000 out
to pay our attorney I said no problem
um Gretchen gives me W2s pay subs fake
the whole thing's fake I get her I
refinance I get a second mortgage on her
house $75,000 they pay their attorney
their attorney immediately says you need
to wear wire on this guy like he just
got you $75,000 you know I don't know
how you got $75,000 but the attorney
knows something's wrong because the
attorney's like they just your whole
mortgage company was just shut down
there's no way you could borrow $775,000
so he's like this this guy's doing
fraudulent stuff and she says yes of
course he is and he says you need to
work with the FBI wear a wire against
this
guy so she calls me one day and says
listen I got to talk to you the FBI is
asking questions about you and I go what
and she goes yeah I was like um meet me
at the pizza place down the street so
you don't come in my office cuz
everybody knows she's been indicted like
everybody in her office quit when the
FBI the FBI shows up and gives you a
business card they announces they're the
FBI everybody quits so I said do not
have do not don't don't come here
because they already know they're
already concerned so I go and I meet her
and Pete and we sit down at the uh at a
restaurant you know a little Pizzeria
and I sit down and she starts telling me
that the FBI is asking questions about
me and I'm like what are you talking
about like what are they asking she goes
look they came in they took all our
files and like I was like I didn't know
any of this I'm like when did this
happen she's like yeah they a couple
weeks ago and they they and they have
some of your files cuz I had closed
several loans for my wife at the time we
were buying rental properties my wife
didn't have a job so there there it's
all fraud but I couldn't CL I could not
close those loans in at my mortgage
company because I own the property so
I'm selling those properties I bought
properties renovated them and sold them
to my wife to get around something
called seasoning seasoning says you have
to wait 6 months to a year to refinance
at the market value otherwise you if you
want to refinance that's fine but you
have to refinance at the price you
purchased the property at but I bought
these properties for 80 or 100,000
renovated them sold them for two 300,000
to my my wife who got a very got didn't
even get a big mortgage we were just
trying to kind of get around around a a
um a guideline so but my wife was not
working and I provided W2s and pay subs
so when she says all this she says yeah
they're looking at at your the loans you
gave me at at your wife's loans and I
went oh my God I said well you didn't
tell them that the W2s were fake did you
you didn't tell them the pay stubs were
fake did you you didn't tell them that
the down payments were you didn't tell
them that we were married did you I mean
just absolutely buried myself and as I'm
telling her
this I was like I I I I was like I I
kind of caught myself and I okay wait
wait wait a minute look okay here's what
you're going to tell them you're going
to tell them you never met her she
called on the phone like I start trying
to devise a plan that will answer their
questions without getting my wife in
trouble or them in trouble and if nobody
cooperates the whole thing should shut
down you know they it doesn't go
anywhere there's no way there's 's
nowhere for them to go if everybody just
kind of stonewalls
them so as I'm saying all
this Gretchen says Matt we can't lie to
the FBI and I go what are you talking
about you're already lying to the FBI I
mean you you you know you you've been
lying to the FBI mean I just refinanced
your house and before I can really say
anything Pete jumps up her husband
stands up and he says we've never lied
to the FBI we may not have told them
everything but we've never
lied and I thought
like what what who like who are you
talking to like I know that's not true
so you're not saying that for my
benefit so I was just I kind of look at
him and I'm like what and I just I
remember looking down and and this may
mean nothing but both of their cell
phones were right next to me right and I
remember they were probably just wearing
wires but I just remember thinking those
cell phones are microphones they
probably weren't but I remember thinking
oh wow and I just I looked at and I went
wow
and I said well I hope you're going to
get something for this and she
immediately starts crying and she says
Mt I'm sorry I I have a kid I can't go
to jail do you have kids at that point
yeah I like I have a kid like I have a
kid and I was like wow I wow what have
you learned about friendship from that
like loyalty oh yeah this no there's
that's a that's it's sweet that must
have hurt it's cute I mean I love the
idea of it you don't think that no I'll
tell you why
so I go back to my I go back to my
office I remember I told her I said tell
the FBI agent to call me on the phone do
not come in my office so I go back I'm
still trying to figure out how to
weather this right I go back I sit
down phone rings uh my secretary comes
in and says hey agent I'll never forget
a guy's name agent Scott Gale with the
FBI and I was like okay he on the phone
and she's standing there I was like
close the door like get out and close
she's
like so get on the phone he asked me if
I'll come down I said yeah absolutely
let's schedule it for next Tuesday you I
put it off four or five days um I go to
my brother-in-law immediately who's a
who's a uh a lawyer and he says oh yeah
yeah I don't really tell him exactly
what's going on but I tell him this is
what's happening kind of and I'm I may
be in trouble I need a I need a federal
defense attorney I don't even know what
a federal defense I don't even know the
difference but he said you need a
federal defense attorney it's the FBI so
he we go on a couple we meet a couple
lawyers I end up getting a lawyer I give
him like 75 grand um and he started to
have me convinced initially he had me
convinced I was probably going to go to
jail for a few years but really that's
what they kind of do to justify you
giving them $775,000 right and then but
the more I thought about it that you
know and and and read he gave me the
guidelines that that supposedly I had
I had um you know the the fraud that I
had committed and what the guy and the
guidelines that overs saw that um and I
read it and I was like I'm not really in
trouble here because I'm looking at a
felony but I'm not going to go to jail
because there was no potential for the
bank to lend to lose money
so because I bought the house with like
a hard money loan and then I renovated
it with my own cash and when I sold it
it appraised at
250,000 my my uh ex-wife borrowed like
180 so there's plenty of of equity if
the whole thing had gone into
foreclosure they still would have got
their money back and to be honest by the
time all of this happened there was only
like three of the three properties it
was like five but we'd already sold a
few and at this point we' just sold
another two there's like one or two
properties left so we're selling at that
moment we were selling them so I I was
like no I kind of argue with them but
then he wanted 75 grand I gave him 75
grand and then he comes back and he says
good news there was no potential fraud
so I can get you three years now here's
the thing here's here's what I always
kind of look back
at when I first got went into his office
he
said he said listen you haven't been
indicted yet I spoke with the FBI I
spoke with the US
attorney they believe and they've been
told and he said look they didn't tell
me exactly what they have but they said
with the the evidence that they have on
you based on two confidential informants
that it's you cannot go to trial and I
was like right of course I knew that and
I was like okay he said
but he said you haven't been indicted
yet and they are fairly certain that
you're running um a mill right a fraud
Mill over there and you guys are
churning out fraudulent loans now they
can't come and they can't come and rage
your office and do anything about it yet
because so far they only have you but
here's what I'm saying is that he Saidi
can keep you from being
indicted it's called um pre-trial it's a
pre-trial
intervention where we go in and what
we'll do what we'll do is you go you
work you go in talk to the FBI you go
grab a bunch of your mortgage broker
most egregious
files grab them bring those files to the
FBI go work with the FBI they will
indict them
and you will not be indicted and I
said which I I kick myself to this day I
said absolutely not I'm not going to
snitch on them I'm not going to
cooperate I'm not going to you know I'd
seen The Godfather you're not supposed
to cooperate you're supposed to be loyal
I'm not going to do any of that and you
know and and so I say all of
this where you know looking back like I
would have if I could go back back in
time I would have gone into our weekly
meeting with a dolly and I would have
walked in front of everybody and scooped
up two or three of the file cabinets and
put them in the back of a truck and said
listen you guys are going to be talking
to the FBI soon I suggest you get
attorneys and I would have dri driven
off but I didn't I thought no be
loyal you know don't do that and and
what happened
was when my when the other thing Falls
right when the next scam falls apart
every one of these people go to the FBI
like they're not even coming to them
these guys are going to the FBI with
lawyers I want to cooperate I want to
tell you what Cox did I want to help I
want to and I'm think like I never had
to get indicted to begin with so you
think that most of these people from
your experience are going to uh
sacrifice all integrity that's a funny
word sacrifice sure that applies to this
but
that's they're going to sacrifice
friendships and loyalty for just to save
their own ass yeah that I only had one
person that did not talk to the FBI I
had one person that every time the FBI
or the Secret Service went to that
person's door she said don't come to my
house again I don't have anything to say
about about Matt I have nothing to do
with any of this talk to my lawyer and
this happened over and over again and
that's my ex-wife she's a gangster so
are there people in this world you
trusted or you still
trust I you know the the problem
is eventually I
cooperate
and at the time I didn't want to
cooperate I didn't believe in
cooperation but after seeing how many
people cooperate and the way the system
is set up I think that my understanding
of loyalty
is vastly more realistic now and I think
that if you're committing crime if if
you're absolutely like the things I did
I did a bunch of scumbag things you know
I mean I'm not killing people but I'm
doing scumbag things I'm lying cheating
stealing that I'm a thief you know you
boil down to it that's what I am so you
can't go around behaving like a scumbag
dealing with scumbags and then expect
those same scumbags to
suddenly abide by some kind of a street
code and not roll over on you you know
and it does happen but it's it's like in
the it's in the 90 percentile of people
that cooperate 90s something percent and
people cooperate when they're not even
looking at any real
time so if you're looking at 30 years
and and especially after going to prison
you go to prison and it's like the this
guy's a standup guy over here he got 30
years he could have cooperated against
all of his codefendants but he
didn't nobody comes to see him his wife
divorced him you know his kids ended up
in foster care his you know his his
friends are are are cleaning out his
house nobody puts money on his on his
his books nobody comes to see him nobody
answers his phone nothing he took 30
years most of those guys turned around
they end up getting indicted for other
things years later they
cooperate and the best thing this guy's
got going for him is that he can walk
around and say well he's a stand-up guy
that guy's going to the same halfway
house as me he's probably he's going to
do 30 years where I'm going to do 10
standup guy meaning he never snitched
right and so everybody's seeing
this example and saying well I'm going
to snitch then but it it sounds like
what people are doing is they're uh
signaling virtue signaling
like there are they would never snitch
and actually do secretly I mean what is
it I I remember I talked to one of the
cosos at the prison one time and he said
uh he said I said shit I said 50% of the
guys here snitched he goes there more
than that he said but listen he go 100%
of them are lying about it he said so do
you he goes there's nobody here that's
going to tell you they they snitched
nobody so there's guys tons of tons of
them that cooperate if 8 90% of of um
defendants cooperate you know you start
doing the math and you if you you ask 10
guys in prison all of them say I didn't
I didn't cooperate I didn't cooperate I
didn't cooperate like okay you ask a 100
I didn't cooperate nobody's going to say
I cooperated does that break your heart
a little
bit that people backstab each other like
this it it does it does
but you know I have such a low opinion
of people you know what I'm saying like
I don't expect it's not that I I don't
like people it's that I just don't
expect anything of them you know I don't
expect you to look out for me you know
there was a time when I did I thought I
look out for you you should look out for
me but I just don't expect that anymore
see but I think
Humanity flourishes because there is a
lot of people out there that do the
thing that is difficult to do in terms
of Integrity that may be but these these
aren't people with Integrity these are
criminals if these were decent human
beings and all of them will tell you
well why'd you do that oh you know I was
a drug addict or I I needed the money
well if you were if you were a decent
human being you would have gotten off
the drugs you would have gone and gotten
three jobs you can work 80 hours a week
I've done it you can work 84 85 88 you
can work 90 hours a week you can do that
oh I did it for my kids no you're lazy
you could have worked three jobs for
your kids instead you decided to sell
methampetamine well I was I was addicted
you could have gotten off me it wasn't
important it was the easy way out you're
not someone with Integrity so for you to
sit there and say hey I'm going to act
like a scumbag but now I got caught or
you got caught and I don't want you to
tell on me well you're a guy that robs
Banks you stick guns in people's faces
you kidnap people you torture people you
sell drugs you're not you're not a moral
ethical person but you want you want
everybody else to hold up to some
ethical code while while you're robbing
grandma that's not right like you know
so you know I I get I get the whole Omar
code you know and there was a mo there
was a time when I was you know
delusional enough to believe
that
but you know after you go through after
going through it no and after going
through it multiple times
no I have to really think about that and
I deeply appreciate your honesty on
this okay
I I think
um I
mean there's all kinds of criminals in
this world and they all have all kinds
of stories and your story is one
of I don't know if it came from
desperation versus a
love of this kind of
game right like it it wasn't part of it
an attraction to the the creative aspect
of this of breaking the rules when
nobody else can and you figure out a way
to do
it I think I think initially it was I
needed the money like that's the first
thing you know you say oh okay well I
need and if you ask most gu oh well man
I needed the money you need the money
but and then I I I definitely needed the
money
but then you get $50,000 in your bank
and then you get a 100 and then it's 200
and then it's half a million and then
it's a million and what the hell are you
still committing fraud for you've got
half a million or a million dollars in
the bank or worth of real estate or
you've you're making $10,000 a month
just in rental income why are you still
committing fraud so it turn I think it
morphs
into the creativity in part for me and
and too it was a chance for me to prove
to everybody how smart I was you know I
mean it was done out of desperation
initially and then it just turned into
pure narcissistic arrogance look at me
look at how I can do things that nobody
else can do look how smart I am I just
walked into Bank of America handed them
seven documents that were all fraudulent
and they cut me a check for
$250,000 like wow I'm amazing you know
and guess what they're never going to
get their check and they they won't know
even know where to start to try and find
the person because they're looking for a
phantom so you know and you feel great I
felt great I used to say I I felt like I
felt like James Bond I felt like 007 it
was amazing and you know and it did it
it feeded my need to feel important you
know even if it it it was it was even if
that was a lie cuz all that success was
just a
lie well no you were good at it it was
good at it but it was it's not it was
illegal it's not like I'm Elon Musk you
know what I'm saying like there's it's
not like you're an ex I'm an exceptional
human I'm an exceptional human being at
a horrific thing at at committing fraud
well the question is how many people are
getting hurt because uh initially the
thing is initially nobody got hurt
that's the thing nobody ever lost any
money directly like I didn't go and say
give me $50,000 and I ran off with your
money like I wasn't doing that and that
was a great
justification but at some point and
we'll get into that you know I take off
on the run and people do lose money I I
didn't take that money directly and for
some reason in
my you
know sick mind or whatever the case may
be that seems like a distinction to me
that makes me feel okay is that I never
said give me 300 give me $10,000 and I
ran off with it but I put people in a
position
where
I damaged the credit or damaged the the
title to their
house and they had to go get a lawyer to
fix that you know and and so that they
had to go pay a lawyer $110,000 so I
absolutely caused that person did I said
to me to you're a victim and I owe you
that money and it was a shitty thing to
do because even at the time I was like
oh they'll make a couple phone calls
it'll be fine it wasn't fine and if I
had really put any thought into it at
all I would have known it it's going to
it's going to really affect these people
and those people had done nothing
wrong with the exception
of trusting me they rented me their
house or they owner financ their house
they made the mistake of bumping into me
and now they owe $10,000 $20,000
you know and and I'm sure a ton of
Anguish so what happened when you were
caught that first time so I was caught I
got three years probation you know I
took the probation what does that
involve initially it
was it was such a slap on the hand on
the wrist were you allowed to still
practice okay so I wasn't I had to I
couldn't own the mortgage company
anymore mhm that was a good question cuz
like you would think you know wouldn't
it be great if I could keep on going um
but what they said was you know you you
have to forfeit your your brokerage um
your broker's license and your brokerage
business license and what I did was I I
transferred my brokerage business
license to a guy that essentially bought
my
business they allowed me to work as a
consultant in the mortgage industry you
know cuz they went you know they go my
my lawyer goes to the judge and says
what else can he do so
um and so I have a a friend nam's Dave
Walker he was a CPA he came in and he
bought my business and he paid me like
$9,000 a month and that covered my bills
uh my wife and I got divorced so she's
my ex-wife
and I I don't know what to do right like
I don't I'm I could you know and I
always say you know I could have like
you know you look back and it's like I
could have claimed
bankruptcy um I could have moved into my
parents spare room you know something
like that but you know cuz I had I had I
lost everything in my divorce um I had
huge child support payment um you know
not that that has anything to do like
with my my ex-wife like I absolutely
signed up for that like I wanted to pay
that um but it was it was it was a chunk
of change you know so we're talking
about a couple thousand a month for you
know for child support um she got all of
the apartments that we had we had about
a million million and a half dollar
worth of Apartments which isn't a lot
now but that's probably five or6 million
now so she got all the apartments so she
got everything so now I'm sitting here
like I got I can't be a mortgage broker
I can get my $9,000 but I have to help
this guy run this company train people
do that sort of thing so what I decided
to do was I was going to start flipping
houses legitimately or not well
initially I thought about doing it um
legitimately right but at the same time
I was also in the middle of figuring out
how to make these synthetic
identities so I'm making the payments
every month remember two months in three
month no no credit scores no credit
scores no credit scores and I'm also
saying I'm going to go I'm going to
start buying houses renovate them sell
them so to the the truth is we actually
renovated probably one house completely
I remember it was on 26th Street we
renovated the house completely on the
outside in and the inside yeah outside
inside it's done it's good okay great um
me and me and this guy actually Dave
Dave Walker the guy that bought my
business so we renovate it and it just
so happens at the same time I go to pull
credit one day and wow 700 Plus credit
scores and I
went we don't have to sell this thing at
all like we just we just I can sell it
and put it in this guy name and let him
refinance it and so that's what we did
we ended up I ended up selling it to
this synthetic identity do you remember
the first synthetic identity the name
the first one was a Joel cologne yeah
and then I started getting creative
because the ones after that I started
naming so I had like Joel cologne and an
Allan Duncan but then I I do you
remember the movie Reservoir
Dogs so I I started naming the
characters after guys in the reservoir
dog so I I had a I had a a James red you
know I had a like a Michael White a Lee
black MH I had a um William blue David
silver uh Brandon green so then I start
developing these guys now I thought oh
forget those those normal names I'm
going with these with the reservoir dogs
and I thought I was so cute too you
think in retrospect that was a mistake
it was so stupid that was just it's
there's so many things so many mistakes
I made I
mean within the fraud there are mistakes
I made but you know other than just the
overall committing fraud but it was just
like I thought it was so cute and then
you know you get in front of the judge
and the judge is hearing about the
reservoir dogs and Mr Mr Green and Mr
Black Mr White Mr this Mr that and he's
looking at me just like you jackass like
and you know what am I saying I'm like
yeah I thought that was cute um you know
but nothing's cute so you know plus I'm
making fake Banks what's the purpose of
the fake Banks well sometimes you have
to have your down payment in the bank
right so you have they have to they want
three months worth of bank statements to
see that hey he's got his $50,000 in the
bank and then the more the more
properties you buy they want start to
want to see what's called reserves they
want to make sure that you can pay all
your mortgage
payments if this guy loses his job can
this guy maintain all these mortgage
payments for the next six months and see
they do that and they think you're going
to go you know oh no he can't do it they
go well then we won't lend it well when
they do that to me I go of course I do
of course he's got it let me send you
over the bank uh bank statements oh you
want to call the bank call them so
there's a phone number there's a website
yes you can call we'll get on there I'll
I'll do the
whole you know and uh hold on okay uh
what's the name again oh do you have the
account
number hold on you wait a little bit you
know you come back oh okay I got to here
I I can't tell you the exact amount
right now but what is the what what was
his balance last month and the Daya oh
yep y That's it exactly okay thank than
you click would you do different voices
or would you be no I've done different
voices or I just have somebody else do
it you know Gretchen would have done it
or um or one of the Brokers Susan would
have done one of the Brokers that worked
for me or you know Kelly or Johnny moon
I I have so many guys and you know they
just get on the phone they do it because
they're all doing something fraud and
we're all working together so hey I need
you to call this guy I need to call this
guy and verify this and say what I'm I'm
at the bank okay I'm at the bank okay
cool and they call back and do this feel
like an organized system or was it it
more improv just like dealing with the
different situations the government
would definitely say it was organized I
would say it was you know you're a bunch
of you're just a bunch of guys you know
to you know it's you're joking around
with everybody and you're you're helping
each other and it's not like everybody's
you know kicking up the Tommy yeah you
know so so and then all these new
puzzles come up and you figure out way
to these puzzles you go in and you say
hey I've got I've got this loan I need
to get this loan this guy's trying to
buy this house and I need loan that
looks like this where can we go and by
the way they cannot they cannot order a
copy of his tax returns so you don't
want to have to sign What's called the
4506 so they're like okay listen so and
so's got a program that you know and you
go back and for but you have to have
this much in reserves but you got the
bank right yeah yeah I got the bank I
could do that you know so you you go in
and you throw it out there to five or
six guys and you're going to come up
with an answer so you're on probation
here just uh to
self-reflect did you start start doing
this while on probation because of the
money or because it gave you
meaning God I you know I mean part a big
part of that the reason is I I did not
want to move back in with my parents and
I didn't want my father to see me
struggling and I didn't want him
to it
was my success he had no idea My Success
had been the first time he'd ever really
been proud of me does that financial
success yes at which point when was the
first time you told him you did
something he was like you could sense
him being proud oh when I became a
mortgage broker when I when I became a
mortgage broker and I went to work for
the company and what we're talking about
within a week I got a client three days
later I got a client a week later got a
client two days later got a client like
I closed four loans my first month and
my dad was like well well how much money
are you going to make and I'm like oh
I'm charging this much this I got a
point on the back I got this I boom I'm
thinking I'm going to walk home after
taxes like 10
11,000 Jesus God Almighty you know are
you Ser well well we'll see don't start
counting your chickens before that you
know and and then you know two whatever
three weeks later four weeks later you
know boom I got a check it's like $9,000
or something or and then you know the
next month it's 12 and the next month
it's 16 and you know then they make me a
manager and you know um it just he
didn't know any of it was illegitimate
no he thinks he thinks my son he's
brilliant you know he's great he's
wonderful I I had you know was certainly
not proud of me prior to that um but you
know my dad was athletic he was
extremely bright I mean
brilliant and I was a kid who had to be
put into special schools who barely
gradu uated High
School who ended up going to college and
getting a degree in Fine Arts because I
was never going to be able to get a
degree in Business it wasn't going to
happen so when I graduated college I
remember with the the degree in Fine
Arts he said the best you'll the best
thing you could do with that is maybe
you could draw caricatures at Disney
World you know what I'm saying which
wasn't a compliment but it wasn't like
hey you could
draw um so yeah he you know and then I
turned around and I I tried to go to
work for State Farm insurance which is
who he worked for he worked for them for
like 40 something years and I failed the
aptitude test so then I went and worked
for another insurance company and I was
a an insurance adjuster but I couldn't
keep up with the workload then I end up
working construction I'm still barely
paying my bills you know that's
basically where my dad felt like that's
that's you know he was polite to me you
know we was we were you know cordial but
yeah I wasn't I I I think he felt he
deserved a better kid so well when you
when you started doing mortgages that's
when he was like of course he was like
this kid's got something I'm driving I'm
driving a new I got it just pulled in in
a new car and I got a I just bought a
house that was you know four or five
blocks away from his house from where I
grew up from where he lives you know
lived at that time you
know six blocks away from where my
sister's married to her lawyer husband
mhm like I'm doing pretty good and then
within 3 months we bought you know we're
my new wife we buy a um a quadplex and
then we're buying a Triplex and another
quadplex and a 10 unit and a duplex and
another duplex and a quadplex and it's
like what the hell is going on this guy
is blowing up he's going on vacation
here and vacation here and you know so
he you know and so when when when the
FBI comes in they indict me and I I take
the three years probation like I mean
the probably the worst thing in the
world you know other than going to
prison would have been just having to
just sell everything and go move in and
start over and sell used cars not that
there's anything wrong with selling used
cars but I just felt like you know I
just didn't want to disappoint him any
more than I already had so I thought I'm
going to flip houses and then I'll start
maybe a development company so I'll buy
some vacant lots and all this and that
the problem
is these houses I'm buy them for 50,000
if I fix them up and sell them maybe I
make 20 25,000 and then you got to find
a a a qualified borrower it's very hard
to find a qualified
borrower that wants to live in ebore
City back then it's I still think it's
rough but those same houses are going
for three and 400,000 so you know I'm
buying houses I got I got to get
qualified borrowers I have do all the
renovations it's it's a nightmare you
know and if I you know looking back back
it's like okay well then you got to bite
the bullet it's just what you have to do
I didn't want to do that I didn't want
to do it whether it was laziness or I
don't know you know I just thought I'm
good at this I'm going to run I'm just
going to start running a scam I'm going
to figure out how to drive the prices up
buy the houses for 50 record them at
200,000 and then have these synthetic
identities buy all the properties
refinance them pull out the cash make
six months worth of payments let them
all go into foreclosure and that really
really started working
well very well I had one time where I
had a guy it was James red the synthetic
identity was James red and he had bought
two or three houses and there was
somebody at the office who was friends
of somebody who knew the title company
where we were closing the
loans and he called that her her name
was Mary and said
Mary this guy James red like Cox is
doing something Shady James red does
doesn't even exist she goes and looks at
the file her last couple files and and
she realizes of course obviously like
this guy never showed up she remembers
Cox picked up the files like and he's
saying he doesn't exist so she freaks
out she calls the mortgage broker
mortgage broker calls me mortgage broker
calls me up and says listen Mary said
she's not closing the next loan unless
James red shows up and I went wow that's
a that's a tough one and she's like okay
so what do you want to do do you want to
go to another Title Company like we're
supposed to close in like three days two
three days I said well he's going to
have to show up then I said I'm I'll
figure it out like give me a couple days
give let me figure this out and she's
like okay well I don't know how that's
going to happen he doesn't exist keep
mind at this point I don't need IDs I
don't need a real ID I mean I I can I
figured out how to kind of make a real
ID right like I could make one I could
take sandpaper and sand off the
information on a regular ID and then I
would print
the the corrected information in reverse
on a piece of um transparency and I
would glue it over there and you could
still see the Holograms and stuff it
actually worked pretty good I don't a
cop's not going to it's not going to
pass mustard with a cop but somebody at
the bank like I was able to go in and I
would open a bank account with
it
well
so one of the things I had done when I
was closing these loans was I would go
online and I would
pick you have to pick a photo of
somebody right to put on the on the
driver's license right so I'm not making
a fake ID for all these guys because I
don't need a fake ID for all these guys
not with my picture on it but I need a
fake I need I need a copy of an ID but I
need a picture where do I get the
picture so I go to Hillsboro County's
arrest website and I would find people
that I knew that had been
arrested and so I found a guy
named uh Eric tamargo who had been
arrested he had like I don't know what
it was the DUI or domestic violence I
forget what it was but there was a
picture of him so I print out the
picture I cut it up I paste it onto uh a
driver's license and I make a copy of it
you know for for James red that's what
I've been giving the title people when I
would close I'd sign all the documents
and I'd leave them that copy so that it
looked like they made a copy for of the
of it and then they would notarize all
the documents even though they never
seen this person they have a copy of his
driver's license everything's signed Cox
said he signed it it's good notorized
here's your
check so what I do is I think let me see
if I can get Eric to do this he's been
to I knew he'd been to prison before so
I call up Eric and I remember one of my
buddies like he's never gonna do this
and I was like I I think he will I think
he will so and that's how and that's
really that kind of like you think what
do you think let me try let me call him
I don't know bro like that's the kind of
conversations you're having like it but
really looking back love to hear the the
opener few sentences that you have with
him I got I can tell you exactly what I
said cuz it's burned in my mind he comes
in so what Eric was doing at that time
he was actually working for us he worked
for somebody else but periodically we
would you know we' buy a house and we'd
call him up we'd say hey can you your
you and your boss can you guys come over
and trim the Trees of this house trim
all the trees take all the crap in the
yard clean it up they go yeah sure no
problem cuz that's what he did work for
like a handyman service so they would
come and they clean it up and they do
that so I say can you come over and he
was like yeah so he comes to the office
whatever a few hours later and he comes
in the conference room I said hey Eric
what's going on and he says uh he says
hey you know how's it going I said yeah
I said um listen I said I I'm I'm going
to tell you something I need a favor
he's like okay cool he's like what is it
I said you know all these houses we've
been having you go and clean up he's
like yeah we had that you painted that
one house you did this yeah yeah yeah I
know I know right so here's what we've
been doing I've been buying these houses
for $50,000 recording them for $200 and
then I have these fake people buy them
and I explain I just lay it out for him
and he's like
wow that's he's like that's fucking bro
that's ingenious man that's some that's
smart like w you know I was like okay I
said yeah I know that's great so here's
the thing I said the title company who's
been closing some of these loans we have
a closing in a couple days she wants
this guy James red to show
up and I need someone to show up as
James red and he goes wow he goes who
are you going to get to do that and I
was just thinking just like you're not
understanding I'm not confiding in you
because I need a friend you know so and
I looked at I said oh I was thinking you
might do it he was
like he that's a big favor I said it is
a big favor I could be in a lot of
trouble and I said I I know and he goes
well wait a
minute he goes I can't go he said you
have to give these people a driver's
license you said the driver's license is
you were you you were using mug shots
she you said she's closed a couple of
these she already she's seen this guy's
picture and I go she has seen his
picture I said the thing is for James
red I pulled the mug shot offline of you
when you were arrested a couple years
ago and he jumps up and he goes you
motherfucker and I oh I said Eric I said
wait a minute I said hold on hold on I
said listen I said I only did that
because I knew if it came down to this
moment you were the only person that I
knew that could pull this off that have
the balls to walk in and do it
and he sat there and he
went yeah you're right you're right and
I mean I I bro I I I couldn't believe he
fell listen this guy would beat the
breaks off me he was he's like 510 5'11
he's boxed he's a big guy yeah so you
know it's like I've weathered that part
of the storm and he sat there and he
goes right right and he goes well I'm
not doing it for free I'm not doing it
for nothing I said no bro of course not
I mean what you know what he's like
you're making a lot of money I said well
keep in mind a lot of that money goes
back in the prop property it's not like
we're walking away with you know I think
I said like tens of thousands we're
really walking away with hundreds of
thousands it's not like we're walking
away with a bunch of money or you know
it's you know we got to put that we got
to buy more properties we got to keep it
going we got to make the payments you I
know but still I could get in a lot of
trouble I said I understand bro I go
what do you want and I remember thinking
if he asked for more than like 10 or
15,000 like I'll just I'll do it myself
we'll just change title companies and
we'll go and I'll I'll do it myself and
he sat there and he went
I want
$500 and I went $500 listen I almost
started laughing I mean I was like I put
my hand over I was like $500 yeah it's
it's it's going to take you 30 minutes
and he's like he's like I don't care bro
I get in a lot of trouble I was like oh
well yeah I'm not paying you now you got
to sign first and he's like oh you know
I'll sign I'll sign I know you're good
for it I but he for 500 bucks I made a
fake ID for him he goes in to the place
he signs James red
comes out what was even you know what
was funny about that was when we walked
into the title company we're sitting in
the in the lobby and Mary comes walking
out she looks at me she goes Mr Cox I
don't know why you're here she goes I
told Kelly that was the broker she goes
I I told the broker that I'm not closing
the loan unless unless um James red
shows up and Eric stands up on que and
he goes I'm James red and she was
like and she goes hold on a second she
runs in the back comes back with a file
opens it up looks at the picture and
she's like oh I'm I'm so sorry uh give
me five minutes I'll I'll uh I've got
the file I prints up the docs he goes in
signs and when we're there she's passing
out the checks 5,000 here 25,000 here
35,000 here 7,000 here 6,000 here so he
sees all these checks and I'm like oh I
I got that I the construction company no
no no I have that I'm I'll take care of
that I'll take care of that so I get all
the checks and I leave we go sit in my
Audi and uh he sits down he's like bro
there's a lot of money a lot of that
money goes back in the properties Eric
and he's like ah still bro and I said um
and I counted out 500 bucks but listen a
week later we had another
closing so I he comes in I said hey bro
he hey what's going on and I said uh I
need you to do the the James red thing
he goes yeah I've been thinking about
that I did that way too cheap I said I
get it man well how much do you want
what do you want
and I'm thinking if if it's if it's more
than 10 or 15 I'll do it myself and he
sits there and he
goes I want $1,000 I got
$1,000 like oh my God so uh I gave him
$1,000 and we he did another one and um
but by that point it was like five or
six we done five or six with that guy
and after five or six plus the credit
cards plus you know all the other things
like their credit scores start dropping
you know if it was 700 now it's down to
like 600 and at 600 you couldn't really
borrow enough to make it worth it it's
like and I have other people in the
wings waiting so um you know we would
just we I'd go out and I i' run up the
credit cards and and pull as much money
pull all the money out of the out of the
banks and close the accounts and then
stop paying and you said a lot of people
knew so he was one of the people and
that he was one of the people why do you
think nobody said anything I well I mean
I think everybody was making money the
appraiser at that time I had an
appraiser eventually I ordered appraisal
software and I just start doing the
appraisal of myself like why give this
guy 500 bucks um so so you were doing
the appraisal yourself how's that
possible how's that is there a check
against is there there is that's funny
nobody ever questions that you actually
have to have a license to get the
appraisal software so I get an
appraisers that we're working with I get
her
license and I
I I uh create a um an email address as
her uh so it was a synthetic appraiser
right it was a real person but I end up
ordering the appraisal software by
by um emailing uh it was called Alamo
Alamo appraisal software so uh I end up
emailing them as her and they go well we
can't give you we can't sell you the
software unless we we need a copy of
your license boom here's your license so
I send her the I send uh then the
license and then we paid for it with a
credit card you know you could go get
like a Green Dot card you go put 500
bucks on it or a th000 the software was
like 1,500 bucks or something so you
pick give like back then you know a long
time ago so 1,500 bucks they mail it to
us and now I've got the software so now
I can you know I can do the appraisals
myself what stops you from appraising it
not for 200,000 but even more there's no
comparable sales so no matter what you
sent to the bank they're going to look
at it like they're going to to have a
their appra in-house appraiser is going
to do a a Desktop review he's going to
go online he's going to check to make
sure all the apprais all of the
comparable sales are sold for what you
said they sold for are the same square
footage were built what the pictures
look like where how far they are he's
going to double check everything but you
know he's some guy who's on salary and
he does you know whatever 40 or 50 of
these a day or something it doesn't take
them long and so it's cheaper that way
where we pay for the appraiser appraisal
the whole thing got it so everybody's
getting paid right and so at at this
point I'm I'm doing that right you know
and I'm getting caught periodically can
you give an example what do you mean
getting caught I'm living in Tampa
Heights which is right next to ebore
city in Tampa right so this is all these
are all like little suburbs of Tampa and
they're all built back in the
1920s right 1890s 1910 1920 so I'm I've
I bought this 8un building I renovated
it into a Triplex I'm I mean I'm driving
an Audi I'm dating a a a woman that I
should not have been dating like I mean
I don't know what she was thinking um so
I'm you know I'm going on vacations like
everything Life's good so but every once
in a while you know like where you know
where things happen you get a phone call
hey this is what just happened and I one
time I got a phone call from same broker
Kelly Kelly called me up and said listen
we got a problem this
was
I want to say this was Allan Duncan this
was one of the first ones that I had
done right we used him but uh and so he
so she calls me up and says
listen
Allan Duncan never made his first
mortgage payment and I had a friend of
mine or one of my
codefendants when we
closed on that
loan we both got checks for whatever 40
or 50 Grand keep in mind we're also
buying some of this money is going into
a business account we're buying property
we're bu so it's not like I'm pocketing
hundreds of thousands of dollars or even
you know even 20 or $30,000 on every
closing I'm more like I'm getting 25 10
20 and this guy's getting 10 and this
guy's getting 15 and then we're to
taking 60 and we're putting it into the
business account we're buying a bunch of
vacant Lots or we're building some new
houses so we're trying to kind of take
all this and turn it into to a
development company M um but we still
have to pay our bills so you know my
buddy's got to go to he's got to go to
Amsterdam at least for two weeks you
know right he's from Belgium that's you
apparently have to do that at least once
a year so uh he he was so when I gave
him his check the check I said
look you're going to make the Pay Here's
like 20 grand or 15 grand but you got to
make the payments on this thing for the
next six months he was no problem I said
okay so she calls me up a month and a
half later and says hey
um Alan Duncan did not did not make his
first payment and I went uh oh my God
and I I he was actually renting the
apartment downstairs for me so I run
downstairs and I open the door and I go
bro I'm like did you make Duncan's
payment and he turns around he's like is
it do and I was like oh my God so I run
back you know I grabb the phone he
didn't make it he didn't make it she's
like okay well here's what's happening
the account executive is calling they've
got the file and it was called it was
southstar Bank southstar bank had has it
they reviewed it they've already been
ordering documents they they they're
saying that this guy there there's a
problem they are it's it's it's falling
apart like the whole thing's falling
they they know something's wrong but
they don't know exactly what it's just
just something suspicious that she
didn't tell me that on the phone okay
like she she's saying there's something
wrong they're freaking out yeah because
the account executive didn't really know
she just got a phone call saying hey
have you ever met this this broker did
she meet the guy who is the guy he
hasn't paid we're calling the cell
nobody's answering and really most of
this was was my buddy Rudy's fault he's
just not doing any of this stuff he any
of the things he's supposed to be doing
so we go to the office and I call
southstar Bank uh I get the secretary
and I said look I need to talk to
whatever the guy the big guy was it was
one of them was like the president and
one was like the somebody else anyway
vice president so I said I need to talk
to so and so the vice president and she
says I'm sorry he's in a business Mee I
said well listen tell him this is Alan
Duncan like you need to go tell him it's
Alan Duncan's on the phone right now now
I'm assure you he wants to talk to me
and she's like all right hold on and I
mean like 20 seconds L you know speaker
phone hey Mr uh Mr Duncan uh this is so
and so and uh you know I'm here with the
uh with our lawyer and the president of
the bank and our head of fraud we were
just discussing you and I was like okay
um I understand that you guys are uh I
haven't made my first payment I said it
actually came back in the mail I had the
wrong address that was completely my
fault and I apologize I said but I can
get you a cashier check today I will
overnight it no problem hope that's
going to be okay I say they said way
we're way past that way past that I said
okay um what's what's the issue and they
were like I mean look to be honest I
don't think I'm talking to Allen Duncan
I don't think there is an Allan Duncan
he's like I mean your social security
number was issued a couple years ago um
the we called the bank um and and this
was why we had gone with like
south or Sun Trust Bank right so it was
a real Bank mhm so it wasn't our normal
bank and they called they don't they
don't have any record of you I was like
well I've never been happy with
southstar bank there if you know it
sounds like a banking error um and
they're and they're like yeah I don't
think this isn't cute he says I don't
think I'm talking to Alan Duncan right
now right and you were terrified
terrified but you have to be playing it
cool I guess I mean I know what am I
going to say no you're talking Matt Cox
like I can't say that like I'm just got
to keep running with it just like okay
well look you know and he's like you
know we called the DMV this you know
they don't have a list for you in the in
the you know in their website uh we
think that the uh you know we don't
think you exist yeah you know we're
still waiting for a phone call back from
who so so and so and so and so and I'm
just like oh my God and I said um have
you called have you called the
authorities yet and they were like no we
haven't but once we put our file
together we will and then the head of
the fraud department they said oh by the
way Mr I forget his name but the head of
the fraud department is worked for the
FBI for like 10 years or something or 12
years and I and so I mean I'm just like
and by the way the appra uh the broker
is there MH and my buddy Rudy is there
and I mean they're he's pacing the room
she's in tears crying like there and I'm
like okay well fellas I said where's
this headed where's this going what are
we doing and and they so they're they're
kind of chuckling and joking about it
mhm and I remember being like thinking
what's the deal
like it's weird and I said look why
don't I
just let me just pay you back they said
ah we we we'll get the money we're not
worried about I said you don't seem
worried about the money about getting
any of the money back like don't why
don't you just let me I'll cut you a
check I can get you the money back like
what do I I owed him like 150 or
something I forget exactly it was
nothing I'm like I owe you 150,000 let
me cut your check for
50,000 and they were like no no you know
that's uh uh we'll get the money back
when we foreclose on the property and
that's what I was like
oh they think the property is worth like
$195,000 or something and I went oh I
said I understand okay I said do you
have the appraisal in front of you and
they were like yeah and I said open it
up I said take a look at comp number one
that's owned by a guy named you know Lee
Black M comp number two you know is
owned by you know whatever David silver
whatever the names were and I'm like you
know like black silver red I said I am
all those people and I said let me tell
you what I've done and I tell them just
lay it out boom bo boom boom
boom I said so you can call the FBI but
you're not going to get all your money
back or you can let me give you your
money
back and we can let this we let sleeping
dogs lie the whole thing goes away I
apologize you know I had every intention
of making all the payments it's a glitch
you caught me no my bad and so these
guys are just like oh my God like now
they're they put me on hold they're
looking through the file they come back
and I remember at some point we go back
forth back forth and finally they come
back and they said listen you still have
the money I said yeah well first they
come back they threaten me oh well when
the F we give us to to the FBI you and I
said that's not true I said the money
was deposited into a bank account it has
since been moved the bank account bank
account has been closed it's been
removed in cash that money is gone you
will never see that money I will be
cutting you if I pay you back at all
it'll be from another account and so the
FBI agent ends up saying he's right even
if we caught him red-handed the
likelihood that any of these funds will
be ever be recouped is is zero like
there's almost no money's ever recouped
and so we end up uh they put me on hold
again they come back and they go how
quickly can you get us a cashier
check and I go like that day I go get
them a cashier check overnight the
cashier check they never called the FBI
they never did anything now at that
point we actually ditched that whole
that uh James or Allan Duncan I remember
at that point we went to the mall ran up
all the credit cards and just threw
everything away and walked away because
it was shot you know that whole that guy
was shot I think we borrowed whatever
$800,000 or 900,000 in his name so with
the banks it's really really all about
the money that listen when I go on the
run I got one where I was caught so
red-handed
it's it's insane how how bad it was and
and listen that's not that's nothing I I
got caught by um uh Washington Mutual
one time I was caught by Washington
Mutual where we had done six owner
occupied
duplexes so if you say you're going to
live in a house you can get about 95%
financing but if it's an investment
property you got to put down 20% you get
about 80% financing
so a buddy of mine who was a sheriff's
deputy we had his wife
by I'm going to say six owner occupied
duplexes saying she lived in every
single one of
them well you can't owner occupy six
dwellings like it that's fraud now now
granted her W2s and pay subs were
correct but she didn't put the down
payments down even the down payments we
didn't put down we actually got cash
back but months later we the they called
the a lawyer
from um Washington Mutual ends up
calling uh the mortgage broker and
saying that they ended up with two of
the owner occupied duplexes
because Washington Mutual had a credit
line extended to one of the lenders
who'd lend the money so it actually was
Washington Mutual so it was a couple
months later when they went to sell sell
it and a you know they packaged them
together and sell them they realize we
have the same customer with two duplexes
side by side both owner occupied this is
fraud so she comes in she tells me oh my
gosh this lawyer's on the phone this is
what happened I'm like oh wow this is
horrible I end up getting on the phone
with him we have a huge we have a
conversation and I'm like you know he's
like look you know this is a big deal we
could call the FBI I'm like look who
knows who was involved in this maybe
somebody on your side was involved maybe
somebody on my side I don't know what my
mortgage broker did I'll deal with her
on my own why don't you just let us
refinance the properties not only did we
talk him into refin allowing us to
refinance the properties he gave us a
reduced um a reduced balance of what we
owed him because we couldn't we couldn't
borrow enough to pay them off so they
took like a $20,000 hit just to
refinance those properties never called
the FBI never did any was absolutely
fraud MH I had I had a broker one time
we got called with over a million
dollars in loans that he had done that
were
fraudulent Pinnacle Bangor which was out
of Chicago the owner called me and he
was like look your mortgage broker did
this like it was a bunch of uh canceled
checks they were fake canceled checks so
they looked like they had run through
the bank for the somebody's rent mhm
but they hadn't does that make sense
like you pay your rent they deposit it
it goes to the bank and they've got all
the numbers and everything well I had a
bunch that were blank that all you had
to do was fill out your your borrower
information and then you cut and pasted
his full his name and his address at the
upper leftand corner you make a copy of
it it looks like canceled checks we had
24 of them well my one of my Brokers was
using them for all of his files like
even if the person really had a rental
history he didn't want to order it he
just did this it was easier faster yeah
yeah just an idiot wow so they catch a
million dollars worth of loans they call
me up and then they caught another
million but they had already sold them
to Household Bank so while I'm on the
phone with the the owner his name is
Gary and we're talking he's like look
this is what we found this is this this
is what happened and I remember I said
um Gary at the end of this conversation
if you think I'm cutting you a check for
a million dollars I said I just don't
have it you don't have it this was when
I owned the mortgage company and he says
uh
no I what I'm I'm asking you for your
word that if any of
these come back on us they're in Florida
they're in your area you'll help us get
rid of the properties you'll we'll
foreclose we're going to have to resell
them I don't want to be flying down
there just help us get rid of them I
said absolutely of course no problem I
said what about the I said well what are
you going to do with them he goes well
they're going to be a part of a a
package like a $3 million package we're
selling to Household Bank the other ones
they had caught had already been sold
the ethical thing to
do is to contact Household Bank say we
will buy those back we are going to take
care of it's not what happened in fact
Gary flew down a couple weeks later took
me and several of the Brokers not that
broker but several of the Brokers out to
dinner had a few drinks and he openly
admitted he's like look I don't care if
all the loans have fraud in them as long
as they don't come back on me that's
what I'm concerned about CU there's a a
clawback clause for one year he's like
like so if they can perform for one year
I don't
care that was it how many people in the
industry do you think are operating like
this um and by like this I mean in the
aforementioned gray
area I would say there's probably after
like the like after the 2008 financial
crisis I would say it cleaned up
consider
ably but I would say at this point it's
it's just as bad as it ever was and and
keep in mind these a lot of the loans
that caused uh the
problems were like you know they called
them liar loans or or um you know you
know no no qualification like no qual
loans right no
income um well those loans are they
exist again like there are subprime
companies that are doing that again they
know I don't think they call them
subprime anymore they call them so they
got some other name yeah rebranded yeah
they've rebranded a little bit but it's
it's happening all over
again it just seems the whole the whole
real estate SL banking system is very
prone to this kind of corruption I mean
but but how how can you fix it like if
if a lot of the things they fixed a lot
of the manipulation they fixed but if
you tighten it too much then the average
person can't get a loan like you you you
so you you know and and the thing is
some of these loans sometimes changing a
W2 you know should that person have
gotten in that into that house no he
shouldn't have he didn't qualify um but
he makes all of his payments so it's
like is it a fraudin loan yeah but it
performs so you know I think that I
would say that I forget what the FBI
statistic was it was like 20% or 30%
prior to the 20 prior to the the
financial crisis is like 20 or 30% of
like bank loans they were saying contain
some kind of fraud even if it was just a
lie you know if you want to cut 30% out
of the out of the you know that that's a
ton that's a ton so you're on probation
and you're doing these you're almost
getting caught you're almost getting
caught and you're doing these really
large scale
scams how does it get to the point where
you're on the run so doing multiple
scams right so it's not just that I'm
doing the scams with the uh the
Reservoir Dog scams right I'm not just
doing those guys I'm also
creating other
identities because I've got other people
that are involved they they want to do a
scam MH so this chick I was
dating um she wanted to uh she wanted to
run a scam so I set up a scam it's semi
complicated but the the bottom line is
she ends up stealing a real person we we
we steal a real person's identity I have
a real person's identity we get a
driver's license in her name open up
some bank accounts go rent a piece of
property in her
name and I transfer the deed or the deed
from the property out of the real
owner's name I transfer it into her
stolen identity mhm we then refinance
the house like three or four times and
so she starts going to these different
closings and she's her name is Allison
and she's pretending to be a a a Puerto
Rican woman named Rosie de
pre um Allison has brown hair and blue
eyes Rosita Perez clearly doesn't yeah
so Allison when when we make the ID she
dyes her hair
black curls it a little
bit um and gets the pictures pictures
taken of herself
but before she goes to the first
closing to get a check for like
$100,000 we've got like three of these
scheduled um
she she changes her hair color like that
she dyes it back like like a dirty
blonde and she goes to the first closing
and she gets a check a check for 100,000
let's say I don't know what it was like
either 95 or 105 whatever roughly
$100,000 she gets a check at the closing
they give it to her we then go to the
next closing well at the next
closing the the title
person has her sign all the documents
but she's looking at her like
something's not right looks at her ID
makes a copy of the ID looks at it and
says this this doesn't look like you and
she's like you know you don't look
Hispanic and she's like I'm half
Hispanic what do you what and she's like
you don't I mean but keep in mind the
photograph was her MH so she's saying
this doesn't look like you but it's her
granted her she had you know the curly
hair a little bit but that's it so
Allison is like it's me and she's like
look I'm not going to give cut you I'm
not gonna give you the check yeah I'm
going to let you sign the documents you
know we can get you can get the check I
I'll let you know so she goes gets in my
car she say yeah listen there's a
problem so we're driving down the road
she explains it to me I realize you know
okay that's done it's over we're not
going back she's like what about the
other closing no no no more closings
we're
done and and I you know and it was
probably more of a yell screaming and
yelling like what the hell did you do
why told you not to change your hair why
would you change your hair like that
when she came in like the day before and
I was like what did you do what did you
do and she's like I change my hair
what's the big deal it's still me sure
enough you know and that's
a like it's not that I knew that that
was going to happen but why tempt fate
how'd you meet Alison like uh she was a
mortgage broker okay and and I had done
some fraudulent she need she worked for
another mortgage company sorry I she
worked for another mortgage company she
couldn't get a loan closed the owner of
that mortgage company called me and said
look we got a loan we need it closed and
I said great and I when guys would call
me I'd say great I'll come pick it up
I'll give you a $300 or $500 referral
fee no no it's a couple $1,000 we want
to close it well if you then close it
well I can't close it we need a W2 or we
need this we need that we can't figure
out how to do it so I go over there and
typically I convince them just give it
to him it's not going to
close she was she was she was you'd have
to see this chick she was gorgeous she
was gorgeous very flirtatious made me
feel like I was thin and handsome so
um like she gets whatever she wants um
so I'm like okay look here's what you do
and I explained to her do this do this
do this send it here it'll close and she
we Clos it well then she starts calling
me right hey how's it going we go to
lunch next thing you know we start
sleeping together she realizes what's
happening she says I want I want in on
this so now we do the
closings we're on our way I say look
that check's dead what she goes what
about the other the other one I go no no
it's all dead we're walking away now
that was easy for me to say because for
me I had money she's going through
divorce she's broke you know like none
of this did I take into consideration at
the time by the way to me it's like nah
that's dead we're done uh we we'll start
over again well and she's to her in her
mind she was about to make we were
getting probably that was a million
dollar scam she was about to end up
getting you know whatever it was half or
onethird of half a million dollars in
the next week now she's got nothing
so um she says look let's at least cash
this
one and I had a buddy named Travis
Hayes who had been you know we actually
were we've been friends since high
school we were like best friends right
really close friends in high school we
were still
close Travis was learning a scan scam
this one hers was in Clearwater his was
in Orlando so I'm all I'm getting on all
over the state at this point right so
he's running an Orlando scam that's
already yielded half a million maybe
more MH he's still pulling we're still
refinancing properties right so he's
about to close on another half a million
dollars wor her properties he's got a a
bank account that's open she says let's
give it to Travis have him deposit it in
his account he's already pulled out like
300,000 out of the account and she's
like shouldn't be a problem I was like
um no no no and she goes let me call him
she calls
him I think I called him and and I
explained the situation he you think
it's okay and I said no I don't think
it's okay I don't think it's okay at all
and he's like no it's not a big deal um
just give me the give me give me the
check so I give him the check he goes he
deposits the check they say they're
going to hold it till it clears you know
that was kind of a thing back then
um it takes I don't
know I don't know how long it took 5
days six days whatever it was he was
supposed to go back and it would have
cleared and he would have been able to
start pulling money out and so I call
him one day cuz Allison's bugging me so
I call him and I go hey where you at he
goes I'm actually on my way to
Orlando and I said oh okay see but let
Allison know I'm not getting any money
he said the bank manager called and said
that because the check was over
$100,000 they have to witness me
endorsing the back of the check or they
had to see my something right and for me
to come in I oh I said something's wrong
something's wrong don't go to the bank
um what do you think's wrong I think the
cops are waiting for you that's what I
think's wrong and he goes no the cops
aren't he go man I'm in the parking lot
right now I just pulled in the parking
lot there's no cops I'm like they're not
going to be in squad cars like and he's
like no he said it's fine you're
overreacting bro and I'll never forget
what he said he said you're shaking like
a little girl bro calm down I got this
I'm cool with the manager like the
manager like because you've chopped it
up with the manager he's going to let
your fraudulent check go through so he
walks
in the cops are in there they lock the
door he this told me later you know they
closed the door locked it the cops are
in there they grab
him and uh they bring him downtown
he didn't say anything he won't say
anything um that's not true by the way
um but he so here where he told me he
wouldn't say anything I told him I'm not
talking to you coppers oh he told yeah
he told you but he actually did talk he
actually did talk to him so um he what
he ends up doing what ends up happening
is we can't get in touch with him yeah
so we're calling and calling and calling
and then finally I decide you know what
I'm not going to call his cell phone
anymore I'm going to
call the name of the person person he
was um the the synthetic identities
number right so I go and I call the
synthetic identities number I call and I
say somebody answers it and I go hey is
so and so there and he said and it's a
Gruff authoritarian voice you know it's
this is Law enfor and he's and he's like
no who's this he no he go no this is
officer so- and so who's this and I go I
was like uh this is Lee black I said he
said he how do you know so and so I was
like oh no no click and I just hung up
and I called for like a pay phone so I
turned around I said he got arrested and
then later on that night he showed up on
the the county uh website you know the
the arrest website showing he had been
arrested and uh the next day he calls me
and he asked me to get him out of jail
like hey I I you got to go so I I have
to give his brother-in-law money um you
know we get him out of jail he honestly
got out yeah he got out for like nothing
and here's what I should have known he
was was cooperating his it went from
like $300,000 Bond down to like $10,000
so it's 1,000 bucks so right then I
didn't know it at the time but obviously
that means we're going to let him out of
jail we're he's cooperating so they let
him out of jail I go and I get him a
lawyer a state this was state by the way
it wasn't Federal so um I get him a
lawyer for like
$115,000 I he come you know he comes of
course he tells me look they asked me a
bunch of questions I told him that you
know I
that he you know he made up some story
about there's he's working with another
guy but he doesn't know the guy's name
he made up a name like a whole his this
whole kind of thing where he tells them
about me but not me and he's like and
then you know the numbers none of the
numbers LED anywhere so they all Le lead
to cell phones that are only being used
for those scams so it's a dead alley or
blind alley and uh I'm like okay okay
and I mean I'm paying him like he's
coming in man I my truck's no good I
need another truck I buy him another
truck hey man my the Electric's going to
get turned off and I don't have oh I'm I
need $1,000 of course here's $1,000 I
don't know what I was I'm embarrassed
you had to ask here's a th you know week
later you know he needs 2,000 for this a
th000 for this 2,000 for this he wants
to start a tree trimming company he
needs to buy a tree trimmer how much are
those 5,000 of course that's 10 so I
give him another 25,000 starts like a
tree trimming business which he runs to
this day
um what I don't know is that you know
the whole time he's actually working
with a a task force that's been put
together federal or this is State at
this point it's a state task force uh
because there's multiple counties
involved at this point and it wasn't
hard for him to explain like this this
is this comes back to Reservoir Dogs I
got a much all he had to say to the
officers was listen you got to let me go
I can't do any prison time I'm going to
tell you about a much much bigger scam
and they go okay well how can you prove
that scam pull up Hillsboro County uh
Hillsboro County's tax appraiser website
okay look up the name James red look all
of these were bu bought six months ago 6
months later they're all in foreclosure
pull up Lee black all of these were
bought look 6 months later all of them
are foreclosure hey pull up James pull
up Brandon green pull up so all of these
are going in foreclose I it's it's so
it's like you know that what I thought
was so cute not cute it was just stupid
and so he very quickly they put together
a task force he's working with them on
the task
force
and
um we're still buying houses flipping
houses doing everything because I'm I
believe him I believe he's not you know
he's saying look if I have to go to jail
for you know a year or so like you know
and he's also paying you know he hasn't
paid them back yet but he but we're
saying he can pay them back like he's
like look if we get to the point you
know when we get to that point like
we'll pay them back um but we haven't
paid him back yet because we have no way
to show where that money came from we
can always go to like one of his
relatives and give give his dad 40 Grand
give his mom 20 grand you know that kind
of stuff and start putting money that
way and all that money was taken out in
cash too so we could always show up with
a chunk in cash
regardless you know it's still in the
process and I think it we're still in
the process and it could be six months
or a year away because it's a slow thing
I've already been through the process my
first time when I got in trouble and it
was a year but from the time that I was
spoken to until I pled guil Y and was
sentenced so um I'm not concerned about
it well that's happening we're still
flipping properties and one
day I have a buddy named Steve Sutton
remember the sheriff's deputy and keep
in mind it's funny because like I've
done bad loans for police officers
sheriffs um lawyers doctors like you
know across everybody across these
aren't like all you know yeah
guys that you know these aren't all like
you know construction workers or guys
that work you know mechanics or
something these are like the legit these
are legitimate people that have credit
problems or whatever the case may be so
one day I'm sitting at
work and
and I'd been getting phone calls for the
prior week from people at title
companies saying hey Matt wanted to let
you know we just had some subpoenas
served on several of your
files and I'm concerned like that had me
concerned then a guy named Jeff
testerman starts making phone calls Jeff
testerman is a reporter for the St
Petersburg times he's
calling people saying hey um I know
noticed that you sold a piece of
property to Lee black have you ever met
Mr Black you see like and they're like
just hanging up on him or saying no I
don't know what you're talking about I'm
not sure what that guy's name was let me
call you back and I'm getting phone
calls from people so I know some some
things up with the newspaper now now I
know something's being looked at but
nobody's really talking I know that
there are subpoenas being um being
served and I'm I'm nervous you know I'm
I'm very concerned and then one day I'm
in my office and the sheriff's deputy
walks in Steve Sutton in his uniform too
which everybody always stiffened you
know when he would walk in so he walks
in I go Steve I said what's going on
he's head and usually he's jolly and
laughs and stuff and he goes and he says
uh I got to talk to you outside
I was like okay I walk outside what's up
and he says uh I used to date this girl
in the uh like the Tampa Police
Department or something right I was like
okay he say she showed up at my house
this morning at like 6 o'clock in the
morning I went okay He said she said
that she's been working on a task
force and he said Apparently one of your
buddies got arrested in Orlando uh
they're investigating some other thing
in clear waterer uh they're inv gating a
ton of properties here in in ebore Tampa
Heights and I mean there's like a 100
properties
involved and my name came up because
you've sold some properties to me which
I had and and he's like so she came to
me and said look your buddy Cox he said
and the I go I was like okay he goes he
said well the task force is on you and
she said to stop talking to you because
they're going to come arrest you in a
couple days they just handed over the
task force findings to the to the FBI
and the FBI is going to come arrest you
in a couple days and she said not to
talk to you because and because you're
you're going to
cooperate and because all white CER guys
cooperate so she thinks you're going to
cooperate and and not to talk to you
because she's afraid you're going to get
me hemmed up and she said just to walk
away and he was like so I thought you
should know and I was like okay and he
said uh what are you going to do I said
oh
I'm you know I I'm well first he said
what what should I do and I go tell them
tell them that I arranged all the loans
for you you came in you signed the
paperwork I filled out all the documents
you signed the paperwork you you know I
arranged everything I'm like you're not
a mortgage broker you don't know if this
is legit like you sign you have perfect
credit you signed the paperwork you
walked away with a check for 30,000 you
don't know Y and he was like because he
didn't because he had a job he was a
sheriff's deputy like I'm not a you know
I went in I applied I applied for a loan
at a bank they said we can buy you can
buy the house and we'll give you $30,000
so of course I'm going to do that you
know that's not going to happen but he
doesn't know he's and and I said just
tell him yeah tell him you'll cooperate
like
absolutely um he what are you going to
do I said me I said I'm I'm leaving bro
I'm leaving I said I can't I can't stay
here I can't go to prison like I was
just sentenced I'm on federal probation
right now like the judge isn't going to
be cool with me getting popped again
like I mean he I can't do it can't do it
I said I'm leaving can't go to prison
I'm adorable bro like you know I can't I
saw Shaw Shank Redemption I know what's
gonna happen I can't too goodl looking
yeah I can't do that that's not gonna
happen like I I can't you know I can't
not gonna defend myself against a guy
who's 6 foot three and tatted up no so
and you know and I can't I'm not I'm no
benefit to a gang yeah like I'm not I'm
a nonviolent you know soft white collar
Criminal
so I was just like uh I was like yeah
I'm leaving bro I'm leaving so I
actually went home well actually I was
able to I started cutting checks to
people right so I cut checks to uh
Allison to Johnny to like everybody I
could think of here's 5,000 here's 7,000
here's 8,000 here's six here's nine and
had them going into all these different
bank accounts pulling out cash but this
is like a Thursday at 4:00 so the next
day they show up with cash write some
more checks they go again I get about 80
grand in cash that's all I can get um I
I I go home that night I start packing
my bags and I was dating this this chick
named uh Rebecca Hal we've been dating
about a month
and she shows up at my house you know I
hadn't returned our phone calls all day
and apparently we were supposed to go
out and I'd forgotten about it I had
bigger issues and so I'm packing a
couple of duffel bags and she walks in
and she's like what's going on I'm like
um I'm leaving where you going I thought
we were supposed to go out at such and
go do something tonight I'm like I'm
leaving it's over and and she says what
happened I tell her what happened this
is what happened she's like oh my God
like she had no idea well she had no
idea about anything you were doing no I
barely knew her like I mean she's coming
over two three times a week for a month
like I've you know this isn't love this
isn't you know this is a booty call
that's all it is like we're hanging out
we're having sex and that's it I don't
even know you so
she suddenly just begs to come with me
you got to bring me with you you have to
this you have to that I'm like what are
you talking about like you you've got a
you've got a son you have your mom lives
here you're and she's just in tears and
crying and she suddenly said this is
what's so funny about is that she had
just moved
from Vegas to to um St Petersburg to
work at the dog track to work for a
company that own the drg track right a
casino interest or yeah like a gambling
company and uh she said you don't even
know why I'm here I was like okay why
are you here she said I'm here because I
was working for a law firm that worked
for the the um Casino company that I
work for she
said I got caught embezzling nothing it
was like 10 or $15,000 from my
boss cuz she had a gambling habit and
she said he didn't call the police
because we were sleeping together and he
was afraid his wife would find out she
said so instead he banished me here to
St
Pete my son just came to live with me
he's been caught sneaking out uh because
her the father had raised him he'd only
been living with her since she got to
Florida and she's like I was about I was
going to send him back he's failing
school he's smoking pot he's been caught
sneaking out after curfew I'm like okay
I I don't know any of this she's like he
was going back in December you well no
he was going back after the school year
which would have been like May okay and
I'm like so where before five minutes
earlier I thought she was this sweet
secretary sweet innocent
secretary and and she's like you know
I've been married three times I a gamler
I've play bankruptcy I'm sleeping with
my old boss I got like you know she went
from this you know thieving
adulteress you know and I thought these
are all really beneficial to my you know
my future plans yeah you know and I
shouldn't have at that moment you know I
was so just flipped out and concerned
and up and leaving your life and
everything you know
behind that's a that's terrifying and
you know and and so now you're alone in
a strange place in a place first time
you've done something like that like
leave to go on the road yes so I never
just up and moved and and keep in mind
now I can't call home I can't like I'm
I'm leaving there there are things that
I feel like get you caught and every you
know I've watched tons of these TV shows
and you know there are certain things
that get you caught you know one of them
is keeping in contact with anybody in
your old life so I'm thinking that's
that's not going to happen like I'm not
I'm not contacting anybody I'm leaving
and that's it that didn't really happen
I kept in touch I called my mom every
once a while but
I was
like um okay that's cool did the
loneliness of that hit you early on or
no like as you packing I never did
well you're leaving your life I mean
there's a it feels like a fundamental
transition oh listen you think I mean
listen not just that like I'm leaving my
my son I have a son and I'm you know I
was I was leaving everything I was just
terrified of going going to prison and
you know I
mean I don't it was just it was just so
stupid it was just arrogance and you
know I should have stayed like I made
things so much worse but I I also
thought I'm
smart I can I can figure this out like I
can change my identity blend in I'll be
fine aren't you already like people know
what your face looks like they do they
do but I one of the first things I did
was I got plastic surgery what what kind
of plastic surgery I've got I've got a
nose job I got uh what they call a mini
face lift they go in through your back
of your ears and they suck out all the
fat in your neck does that change
appearance much uh a little bit um I got
I was balding I got two hair transplants
you know two hair graphs so the hair in
my head this is my hair it's my hair but
it's from back here so there's they cut
it here I appreciate it um so they re
implanted it there uh you know got lipos
suction just some you know other stuff
and you know got my teeth done that sort
of thing
you know
so you know and I that's was kind of
like my plan I'll go I'll take off I got
80 grand I'll steal some more money you
know but I I let her come with me and we
ran up all my credit cards over the next
few days packed up the car traded in my
my Audi and got like an Audi I know was
it like an A6 or like a four-o like the
big four-door whatever it was um got
that and uh drove straight to Atlanta
and
um so I I wrote a letter to my parents
before I left just explaining this is
what's happening I'm leaving I'm done
I'm not going to
prison love you sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry I know I'm a disappointment sorry
bam so I take off go to
Atlanta when we went to Atlanta I
already had the name of a guy named
Scott cugno that i' done a loan
for so I I had his his you know his uh
his Vital Information right like I have
his name date of birth social security
number mother's made name and where he
was born one day we were having a
conversation and I just slowly pred all
that out of him right like I already we'
done a loan for him so I already had his
name date of birth social security
number but I need to steal his identity
I need to know where he was born and his
mother's made name so through the course
of a conversation I just Pride you know
hey you know cugno is that you know what
is that is that like Irish is it no it's
such and such what's your mom's name oh
such and such okay yeah you know we born
here you born in in wen't you from oh
man I was born here I was born in such
oh Hillboro County you know like I so
it's no big deal we get to Atlanta I
make a fake for both of us but keep in
mind I don't I don't have like I don't
have a driver's license I I do but
they're they're fake like I can't give
this to a to a cop can't give a driver's
license that says David Freeman what's
David's residence Florida or is this
Georgia no this is Florida okay but it
was just a madeup name okay I'd gone to
like high school with a kid named David
Freeman um so I I had an ID but I can't
give that to a cop like that's enough to
get like rent a place or do something
yeah so we go
go to Atlanta make an ID set it up make
some business cards set up a couple
websites set up some uh um get a a an HQ
which is that like a it's a company that
will you can do virtual you can rent
virtual you can rent offices and they'll
answer your phone for like hundred bucks
a month and they'll afford them so seems
like you have a an office they'll they
you know they give you a phone number
that you call up and they say you know
hi United Southern Bank you know and
they'll answer the phone and forward
messages so we get one of those make a
business card for uh for Becky she rents
a house from a guy named um Michael
Shanahan so we rent Michael shaneah
Halen's house it's like $200,000
$200,000 house in
alfaretta
and I then go to Alabama wait I then
order Scott cno's birth certificate
social security
card I think I registered a vote in his
name and I think and we I made a lease
agreement in his
name and I think that's all I needed and
then I went to Alabama and got a
driver's license in his name so I went
into the DMV give them all these
documents and which are almost all of
them are real except for the lease M
they said sit over there I sit over
there I sit down boom 20 minutes later I
have a driver's license it's you know 20
something dollar it was nothing so I get
the driver's license now I'm driving
this I'm still driving a car that an
Audi that is in the name of Matt Cox so
I park that I then
go get Social Security to issue me a
social security number in the name Scott
cugno and I then turn around and I go
and I get a loan you put down 20 30%
there's all these first-time or
first-time buyers 30%
down rent get like a Honda or something
so now we're living in a house we've got
some Furniture bedroom furniture and I
go downtown I pull the title to this guy
Michael Shanahan's
house and I go downtown and I satisfy
the loan on his house so he had two
loans with Bank of America and so I I
make create two satisfaction of loans
from Bank of America so Michael Shanahan
owns a house in the name Michael
Shanahan he has one mortgage with Bank
of America and a second one when you pay
your mortgage off the way public records
knows it's paid off is they mail public
records a satisfaction of mortgage it's
a one-page document and it's notorized
so got two of those I filled out two I I
created two of them I I just ordered you
know you can re do research so when I
went
downtown I
researched Bank of America satisfaction
of mortgages and you know thousands show
up so I just grab a couple of them now I
know what the basic template is they're
all and they're all different by the way
so it's you know it's not like you even
have to be that close but whatever I
mimicked some of them uh ordered I had a
notary stamp not hard to get you know
you just you go in and you'll you go
into three
different um you know uh Office Depots
and you say hey I need a notary stamp
and you give them the information and
you come back four day or whatever a
week later and they give it to you so
I've got these notary stamps so I
notarize the satisfactions I go downtown
I file them Boom the mortgages are gone
on keep in mind Bank of America he's
still paying the mortgages they don't
know that they've been satisfied in
public records they're not notified so
those are gone but it takes about a
month or two for it to show up Atlanta
was that far behind I think it was
Fulton County they were just way behind
so we just kind of have to dick around
for a while right so we're going on
little vacations we're going to New
Orleans we're going to different
places um as Scott cugno driving a car
of Scott cugno we open up sever bank
accounts we have multiple bank accounts
and then um we end up going to Vegas and
we don't get we do go to Vegas but what
happened was we're driving around and I
remember thinking telling her I was like
you know this is a problem like we have
to get real IDs real driver's licenses I
mean this is real but this is a real
person too and he may stumble across it
and and so what I did was I I started
running ads in um
magazines saying um home Lo available
good credit bad credit no problem call
now government loans you know government
you know VA FHA F you know whatever call
this number so people start
calling and I'm getting their
information one of the guys I got was uh
Michael eert yeah I remember Michael
eert poor Michael
eer um I actually actually legally
changed his name to Michael Johnson at
one point but at this point it was just
Michael eard so I don't I wanted to see
you know I'm bored I want to see what
the process is how much does it cost can
is this possible let me see if I can
change this guy's name it was it was
1500 bucks I changed it without him ever
showing up anywhere so you can f I have
a driver's license in his name right I
am him so he did show up he showed up at
the lawyer's office he so you know right
so I'm so I do that I'm living in the
house um and we were driving along one
day and I'm saying we got to get real
like these people that are calling like
that one guy I I get his information but
during the course of taking the
application and I'm asking like these
these government survey questions at the
very end there like 20 questions and I'm
rambling them off and at some point he
was like he said he he volunteered like
I didn't used I never even asked anybody
about criminal history and he just he
ended up saying something well I do have
a felony does that matter I mean he's
like he Ian it was a DUI I've had a
couple DUIs but I got my life Li back
and that was part of the reason he had
bad credit and it was like okay uh no no
it doesn't matter don't worry I'm
thinking you're not getting alone so
this is I'm just taking your I'm just
stealing from you stealing your
information so I get all this
information I'm gathering it and so one
of the things I said to Becky while we
are sitting at this stoplight is I'm
like we got to get real people's real
information and I said like for instance
I said what if I steal somebody's
identity I get a driver's license in his
name four states from where he lives and
he gets a DUI I could get pulled over
two years later and get arrested for a
DUI that he got in Florida and she's
like well what do you what do you what
are you thinking are you thinking like
like criminals or are you thinking like
like prisoners like mental patients like
and I went I mean I don't and I looked
over and there was a homeless guy
holding a sign and I went like that guy
and for she goes she's the hobo like I
don't know who calls them hobos and
she's like the hobo I said yes that guy
I said hold on pulled over to a Subway
got out she went inside to get Subway I
walk across the street pulled out like
20 bucks and I said hey bro can I ask
you some quick questions real quick he's
like uh yeah what's up and I go here's
20 bucks I said listen um I said when
was the last time you were gainfully
employed he's like ah what 10 years like
go okay uh do you do you have a criminal
record he's like I've been arrested and
misdemeanor like you know vagrancy he
named off some things you know drunk in
public whatever and I was like are you
on probation he goes I can't we can't
can't I can't do probation they don't
give us probation they keep us for 90
days they release us like they the judge
knows I can't do I'm not going to show
up for a probation I'm like okay uh do
you have a driver's license he's like
maybe I don't think so I think it's just
like was it you get DUI he's like no I
think it's just expired did you have a
driver's license with you he's like no I
got nothing I'm like okay well you know
he told me he lived in like a tent in
the the woods mhm
and and so I gave him like another 20
bucks asked him a few more questions and
uh and then oh and and I remember in the
middle of it he said he goes you taking
a survey or something and I went I
remember thinking I go nothing I I go I
I kind of chuckle I go you get a lot of
surveyors out here like that he goes
yeah sometimes and I was like really he
goes yeah he said like the um uh he said
people from like you know halfway houses
and uh what do you say uh um social
workers and stuff they'll come out and
they'll you know they'll pass out stuff
and they'll ask us questions and stuff
I'm like oh okay and I was like I
thought that's good to know so I go back
I get grab Becky and she's like oh she
like did you give him money I said give
him like 40 or 60 bucks or something
forget what and she was like that's what
a waste of money that was good that was
money well spent I said that guy's
perfect I said that guy is he's got got
everything he has no way to be contacted
he has no documentation on him I said
he's he's not going to drive a car he's
not going to get a DUI he has an expired
license I just have to get his license
reinstated and I can be him so I went
home I typed up a what I called a
federal statistical survey form and I
made a little thing I mean I went online
I you know I'm always filling out
federal documents as a mortgage broker
so it looked identical I mean I had like
this little like the the recycle symbol
and it was like you know Federal Form
17017 you know um and so I print out
these forms I get a go buy a clip board
I make a little Salvation Army ID I pin
it on me and I go out and I start um
doing a surveys I start surveying
homeless homeless people don't judge me
bro I was in a bad spot I was in a bad
spot I see the Judgment I see the
Judgment let's M let's maintain civility
here like stay neutral stay neutral so
these homeless guys I mean they have uh
they have a Social Security number they
have a a birth certificate I guess I
mean they're a real person right they're
real person they're just not using their
real person yeah they're not actively
engaging with the the economic system
the financial systems they're not
they're not employed they don't have
housing all that yeah they they don't
file taxes they don't so I one of the
questions I even asked the guy at one of
the last questions I said do you believe
that you will be gainfully employed
within the next two years mhm every one
of them said no no no so you know was
like okay they're not even they're not
even trying and they all had alcohol
problems or honestly the few of them I
talked to like was pretty clear I mean
it takes literally five minutes less
than five minutes to fill out the form
and I filled it out Forum of course um
but even filling it out and that brief
just asking questions back and forth
half of them you could tell you've got
some mental illness like something's not
right right with you like these aren't
guys that are going to go out and get
are going to get jobs they're not
cleaning up so they were perfect for my
purposes as horrible as I know that
sounds so you feel bad about this little
small tangent no do I feel bad about it
the homeless people in society are
really it's a difficult life like
dealing with mental illness dealing with
drug addiction all that kind of stuff I
mean listen being in prison and then the
kind the people that are in prison that
you know are are going to be homeless or
have been homeless or the mental illness
that I've dealt with in halfway houses
and even doing this I don't know what
you do with these people I don't even
know that you house them you can't
necessarily even house them together you
know they they cause such problems like
I don't know what the solution is other
than just kind of keeping them fed maybe
and keep them away from normal people
you know so they don't call caus crime
or whatever I don't know about housing
them in one area that seems like a
mistake like there is absolutely no good
solution to that problem none because
it's not like hey if if we gave you a
house and we gave you job training and
we gave you this okay you might get 5%
yeah 10 but most of them are on the
street because they've just messed up
over and over and over again and they
just kind of gave up but you know I
guess we still have to remember that
they're human beings and we mentioned
off Mike uh soft white underbelly and he
highlights the humanity of people who've
had a real difficult life he does it
well he's Mark Lea is amazing he's
amazing and one of the things he had
said was like these are he was like
these are real people and he's like
their stories he's like they have
stories and they need you know but if
you also talk to Mark he'll tell you you
can't just you can't give him money you
can't like you can't like he's tried
over every time he's reached out and
tried to help these guys put them in
apartments fed them got them back on
their feet within 6 months they're back
on they're back on the street I mean
just it just happens over and over and
over again I mean I think the amount of
money that would have to be dumped into
correcting that
problem I don't know I mean you can say
well yeah but just you know you should
do it because it's the right thing to do
I don't know who's paying for it it's
complicated but for your purpose they
they have a Social Security number they
got 20 bucks they seem very happy there
you are with a clipboard taking a survey
right took a
survey uh went home ordered their and
they you know of course they give me
everything name date of birth social
security number um mother's made name
where they were born have they ever been
in the armed services have they ever had
a passport issued what states have they
had identification and have they ever
been arrested they ever been on
probation have they ever claimed Social
Security disability SII I mean every I I
had like 17 questions and it absolutely
answered everything what high school did
you go to cuz high school transcripts
are great for documentation a lot of
times they'll ask you for high school
you know can you get us a copy of your
high school transcripts like that's a
good know and I'm a big believer in
Overkill so I mean I ordered a ton of
stuff if I
needed three things to get a driver's
license in your name right you know I'd
come in with like six cuz what you do is
you get in front of the the the guy at
the DMV and you kind of fumble through
like uh I got this uh what else do you
need uh you know I know exactly what you
need but you know they'll be like oh was
that High School transfer yeah I'll take
that and uh what oh voter's registration
card give me that yeah that's you're
perfect you're good sit down right over
there that's it you who is by the way
lurking in the shadows trying to catch
you you've mentioned FBI Secret Service
you you mentioned uh I think I've heard
you mentioned US Marshals which is
interesting cops General the police CIA
I guess CIA is international only FBI is
internal yes okay well so who is when
you're doing
this who are you afraid of so by the
time I've gotten to Atlanta within four
or five days the FBI raided my office I
guess I kind of missed that back in
Florida back in Florida when I left and
drove to Atlanta and left remember this
FBI was going to show up a few days
later they were going to arrest me and
they did they did they showed up like I
left on a Sunday night or something
because for some reason my stupid
thought I thought well they won't arrest
me on the weekend like they don't work
on the weekends um so they came on like
a whatever it was like a Tuesday or
Wednesday or Thursday like within a few
days they come in the office they rate
it they're looking for me but I'm gone
nobody knows where I am and uh so now
I'm I'm surveying the homeless guys and
I turn around and I'm ordering their
documents and as their documents are
showing
up you know I'm I'm going to different
states and getting IDs
so I'm going to Florida so over over the
course of this whole thing I've had 27
driers licenses in like seven different
states I've had two dozen passports
because if you're going to get the
driver's license in the guy's name you
might as well get or an ID even you
might as well get a passport because a
passport is not difficult to get they
don't fingerprint you you know all they
look all they're doing is saying this is
your ID and where you're born here and
then they run a check and if it comes
back or it doesn't and back then you
could do it expedited and I'd have it in
like two weeks like now it takes like 90
days or 60 to 90 days to get one but and
if you have multiple ideas for a single
identity that's more proof like right so
wait what number did you say how many
how many IDs how many identities so I
had well I've had over 50 identities but
I've had
27 driver's licenses issued from State
DMVs Department of Motor Vehicles so
like legit legitimately I walked into
the DMV said hi my name is Michael eert
and I just moved here about three weeks
ago four weeks ago here's my lease and
here I I I lost my I lost my driver's
license bro like I don't know what I did
with it I don't know I don't know what
happened I I don't know and they're like
it's all right uh what do you have do
you have I need a proof of residency
well I have my lease oh okay um I need a
a a primary uh okay here's my birth
certificate okay and I need a a
secondary here's my social security card
but I also registered you know I I
registered to vote my girlfriend made me
vote immediately and she said I would
need oh yeah it's perfect you're you're
good I don't even need that okay great
stand over there pay that person they
call your number 275 you know 45 minutes
later you go you pay your 25 bucks you
stand in front of the the screen they
take a picture you got a driver's
license you walk out it's still warm
it's beautiful it smells like pop
plastic it's amazing and so I I I'm
opening up
different uh different bank accounts in
these guys
names and just what you yeah sorry what
are you mostly doing with the identities
you opening up different bank accounts
you doing a credit uh starting to
establish credit or no some of them like
I might order um I might
order uh secured credit cards so I can't
get credit you know I'm building their
credit like it's not helping me in any
way I'm just sending out $500 to get a a
Capital One card or a American I'm sorry
A Bank of America secured credit card
whatever so I'm building their credits
but not all of them only a few because
I'm collect although I'm collecting
them I'm also going to be moving soon
I'm only here to get a few hundred, and
move I need some kind of a base so I
don't want to start getting credit cards
and building up a a history in Atlanta
in anybody's name but I am getting
drivers like licenses in other states so
I've been like North Carolina South
Carolina what's the primary method of
income here when you move to a place
South Carolina how do you make 100,000
at this at this time oh well I'm right
now I'm living in this guy's house and I
satisfied his loans the house is worth
200,000 got it so what happens is one
day we go and we check public records
remember I told you it takes months for
it to show up and it shows up M he's got
no mortgages on the house so now I'm I
turn around and I make a fake ID in the
name Michael Shanahan
M and I'm living in his house but I have
no credit right there's no credit so
I've got a the the ID I I've got a a
social security number and I order some
secure credit cards in his name so if
you pull that credit profile it does it
shows up saying he's got some credit
cards but it's they've only they're only
a month or two old so I can't go to like
Bank of America I mean I could
but I needed to get the money as quick
as possible like I I want to get out of
Atlanta so and at this point by the way
there's multiple articles showing up in
Tampa so the St Petersburg times is is
writing multiple articles about me with
your face with my picture yeah but it's
honestly it's it's pre I me not pre-
internet but it's it's post internet but
it's it's in its infancy like no
nobody's it's not huge and and honestly
it's a it's a it's a it's a local
newspaper in Tampa it's not that big of
a deal like I'm not concerned about that
so much at this point what I'm concerned
about is getting a chunk of money and
just moving on and kind of
reestablishing ourselves in a better way
where we're not living in a in a
building that we're going to be
committing fraud in with our house so
but I'm living in this place I make a
fake ID in the name Michael Shanahan and
I call up three secured or sorry three
hard money lenders a hard money lender
is a guy that lends his own money or
other investors money on property kind
of like a bank but he's lending his own
money so he doesn't have to really meet
the banking
requirements and he can charge a much
higher interest rate these guys are
charging 12 133% interest uh simple
interest and they're only lending you a
a much lower percentage of the value of
your home so they're not lending you 90%
of the value they're lending you 65 %
60% so I call three of these guys they
all come out to the house at different
times and each one of them says I'll
lend you 100,000 or it's like 150,000
150 like they all lend roughly
150,000 so we schedule three separate
closings none of them know about the
other person so what I do is I
close I Clos One loan on let's say
Monday and then one on Tuesday and then
one on whatever Wednesday or Thursday or
or they may have all been the same day
to be honest but I don't remember the
point is I go to three separate title
companies or uh real estate attorneys
and we close and I get checks for you
know after costs and everything the
total ends up being roughly
400,000 so I've got 400,000 Becky and I
run another scam in in Tallahassee
Florida and we get like 50 Grand and
plus we the 80 the 80s dwindled down to
close to nothing we we had gone on
several vacations we went to like
Bermuda and I think we went to Jamaica
we actually stayed at the Ritz in uh in
Jamaica so it was very nice you and
Becky so Becky turned out to be pretty
good in terms of scams on the road no
she was useless she was she was she was
horrible and she just spent money all
the time and by the what I realized too
very quickly is she's
bipolar so she's bipolar and
she's absolutely you know insane she
smokes pot all the time um did that
matter for you personally or did it
actually affect the uh how good you were
able to do the these particular scams it
was that she was the type of person that
would start an argument at 1:00 in the
morning yeah and scream at the top of
her lungs and get the cops
called okay so I can't have the police
called I can't get taken downtown and
fingerprinted I can't have the police
showing up I don't know who's really
who's looking we haven't had plastic
surgery at this point we're still
pulling money together
so oh Becky yeah Becky's a problem
and at some point I actually we send her
to a like a psychiatrist and they they
give her um they put her on
Zoloft she takes it for like a month or
two and then she stops taking it she's
she she thought she was all better mhm
like you're not all better so can you
give me a timeline here how long are you
able to be on the road here successfully
three years three years this is me this
is the first few months three years well
so three
years what happens is we I we get that
little chunk of money we put it
deposited into these bank accounts and
we start pulling out cash
M um and which works out fine because we
got a bunch of accounts and we're
pulling out little
7,000 5,000 8,000 and you know I would
cash checks against her
accounts and they would call her to
verify uh there's someone here trying to
cash a check for $99,000 you know can
you verify the pay and they go oh yeah
that's Scott cugno oh okay thank you and
they cash the check you know these are
new accounts so it looks odd but you
know we're always I opened the
account so what what ends up happening
is
um we're cashing them and I remember
getting really frustrated because it
just taking forever and I gone into a
bank one
time and you know they have Banks where
that they they
cash they actually cash like large
checks like if you go into Bank of
America and you try and cash a check for
$155,000 or 25,000 they probably won't
do it they'll tell you we don't have
that much cash on hand we don't this we
don't that they have certain banks that
do that so they told me where one of
those was I went there I had a check for
like
29,000 that had been cut on a closing
for Michael Shanahan remember I
refinanced Michael Shanahan's I've got a
check for 29,000 that was issued to
Scott
cugno so I'm sitting in the bank I go in
there I say I need to cash this and she
says um you're going to have to talk to
the manager I go okay she says go sit
down no over there I go sit down in the
little glass cubicle he comes over and
he says uh I see you're trying to cash
this check and I was like right he goes
why don't you just deposit in your own
bank and I went my bank account my bank
is a credit union or something and it's
in like Florida like they'll hold this
thing for like two weeks like I need the
money now I have people I need to pay
he's like well um I'm not sure and I was
like well it's fine it's a it's a
cashier check like it's good and he goes
no it's it's good it's good I you have
the money and he's like yeah we have the
money he said it's just odd um hold on
he goes back in the back and he comes
back and he says um where'd you get the
check cashier check I said it was a
cashier check it was drawn off of a
closing for um somebody's property that
I I we doing the company I work for
we're putting on an addition
on okay that makes sense comes back why
do you need cash I was like I I'm
cashing guys checks that work for the
company like there's a lot of these guys
that are like Mexican guys they give
them a check they go to a check cashing
company or they get charged 5 10% so I
cash them I'm like I don't under like
what the check's good right like my and
he's like yeah we're just trying to
verify some stuff any he went
um yeah hold on he leaves again and I
remember my cell phone rang and I pick
up the phone it's Becky what are you
doing what's taking so long I go ah the
guy's being a jerk you don't want to
give me the money well she's like oh my
God get out of the bank get out of the
bank and I I can't get out of the bank
the guy's got my ID he's got my credit
card my ID and the check for 29,000 like
he's to call the police if I just jump
up and run M and I go don't don't call
me again I I'll let you know it'll be
fine hang out the
phone she calls back same conversation
I'm I'm bouncing on the walls I'm like
I'm going crazy it'll be fine hang out
the phone he comes back out and he goes
uh he said um I said hey I said what's
what's taking so long and he goes um
we're trying to get in touch with uh
with Michael Shanahan to verify the
check that that's not good for me like
I'm thinking
right right okay okay and he walks away
the phone rings Becky what's what's
going on I go he's they're trying to get
a hold of Michael Shany oh my God oh my
God and I'm like oh my God and I
remember thinking I should I shouldn't
left her the keys there's a good chance
I run out of this place and she does
she's not there but by the way when
you're sitting there you're who Scott
you're Scott I'm Scott cugno and then
calling Michael Shanahan right they're
saying they're trying to get in touch
with Michael Shanahan
so then the phone rings my cell Rings
again I look and it's not Becky's yeah
not Becky so I pick up the phone I go
hello and she says hi this is Kim is it
from Sun Trust Bank is this Michael
Shanahan so I'm like yes it is Michael
Shanahan and she says there's a guy here
he's trying to cash a check it's very
large could you verify the pay and I go
sure it's Scott cugno he's trying I said
I believe the amount is $29,000 and she
goes that's right thank you very much I
appreciate appreciate it I said okay I
said hey by the way how'd you get my
number this is my cell number and she's
like oh I'm sorry we called the title
company and the title company gave us
your phone number well I closed those
loans that's my sale that's why if they
looked in any other way I would have
they could have gotten in touch with a
real Michael shanning in so I was like
oh okay hang up the phone you're sitting
you answered the phone from the bank
while sitting in the bank as as SC as
Scott as Scott pretending to be my so I
right so I just verified the check
myself as Matthew pretending to be Scott
is pretending to be Michael right yeah
so I wait there terrified still they
come out about two minutes later the
manager comes out plus a woman I'm
assuming maybe it was Kim she never said
anything and she walks out and she says
and and he counts out the money twice
29,000 29,000 and I st stand up and I I
mean just like I'm like shoving the
money in my pockets like I'm trying to
get out of there so quick I'm like hey
I'm like okay cool um like I'm thinking
this whole thing is is you know feels
bad and I'm getting up and I'm so
I'm I'm starting to walk out of the bank
and he
goes he said um excuse me Mr cugno and I
said yes sir I turn around and he goes
I'd like you know like you to know that
I feel very apprehensive about this
transaction and I go really what is it
exactly he goes I I can't put my finger
on it and I go it'll come to you and I
turn around I just bolt right out of
there and so keep in mind a week or so
later the Secret Service shows uph did
you cash a check for
$29,000
so um what's so funny he like that was
one of the last checks we cashed so we
ended up with like 400,000 was there a
connection between the Secret Service
and this guy no apprehension so the FBI
is looking for me kind of in in Tampa
yeah and they've put out a a fugitive
warrant for me which is how the US
Marshals got involved so US Marshals
track down fugitives Yes Federal
Fugitives they track
down but everybody's after you you're on
every list right I'm on the FBI's list
at that point the Secret Service got
involved once I leave Atlanta so when
Becky and I pack up our bags and we
leave
Atlanta the Secret Service got involved
because of identity theft
um you know banking identity that that
the Secret Service doesn't just do
counterfeiting and protect the president
they also protect the financial
infrastructure of the United States and
they especially have jurisdiction when
identity theft is involved so identity
theft plus bank fraud they're that's
when they they move yeah that's it
that's their their um their territory so
Marshals are just fugitives US Marshall
is just fugitives they don't do any
inves they're all kind of work okay but
they're all kind of working together
yeah yeah the the you know like the US
Marshals are like let's say an arm of
all of the various law enforcement
agencies federal agencies not the states
the states have their own fugitive task
forces or fugitive so when you leave
Atlanta basically everybody's after you
everybody's after me did you know this
at that time or did you sense it no I
mean now you know we every day you're
looking up you're looking your name up
every day like I'm not cuz I'm just
trying to get a bunch of money and and
just blend in right things were not as
interconnected at that time as they are
now yeah but they're starting to get
interconnected but of course I have no
idea how much I I barely go on the
internet for anything you know dating
that's the only thing the internet you
know I'd never been on Facebook at this
point now Facebook isn't even even out
yet this is
2006 still were you trying to stay low
yeah I I am I'm not a flashy person like
I'm not driving you know like I didn't
go out and buy a a a red Lamborghini you
know I'm driving I'm driving $40 $50,000
cars you know I've had some sports cars
7080 you know maybe that's a $150,000
sports car now but it's still not flashy
it's not like it's bright red or yellow
I these are it's always something you
know nondescript and I'm living in areas
that these cars are everywhere you know
I go to na so I end up going to
Charlotte North
Carolina we rent an apartment we decided
to run a scam uh
in in um South Carolina so I go to
Columbia South Carolina and in between
this period of time we go to Las
Vegas and
I when we go to Lo we go to Las Vegas to
drop off a bunch of money to uh
Becky's uh son's father who's taking
care of her son we drop off some money
there we go and we start and and while
we're there it's like hey there's
homeless people here so
we you know usually I don't feel bad
telling these stories you make me feel
bad I'm sorry I'm sorry my judgment is
showing no uh but you have to be
collecting identities I guess to be
constantly creating new
identities so I I got my survey forms so
I go and you know we're we we go out and
we're taking I'm taking service and I
end up going up to this guy who's like
two or three guys that are standing on
like a bench or sitting on next to a
bench or something and I see them and I
walk up and the guy one guy gets up and
he comes over he's like hey what what do
you need and I went um I'm taking a
surveys for the Salvation Army to
determine where we place our next
homeless facility and the guy goes oh
I'm not interested they always said that
I say it pays 20 bucks cash right now
it'll take you five minutes and they're
like what you $20 cash right now I like
yeah show them the cash they go okay
yeah yeah what do you need name date of
birth social security number so when I
get to um criminal record the guy he
says criminal he's like yeah I've been
arrested he I've been arrested like
three four times for pro he said for a
prostitution he said um but they're like
misdemeanor and I went okay
um and it was like okay well
prostitution I to me women get charged
with prostitution you know men get pro
charged with solicitation I went
prostitution and he goes and he went he
said yeah yeah he said I offered to blow
an undercover cop for 20 bucks he said
that's what I thought you were coming up
here
and I was like and I was like no no bro
I said uh okay and he's like yeah he
said uh you know he goes he goes I mean
he said I mean a girl's got to do what a
girls got to do you know and he made
some comment or something I was like
okay so I jot down the rest of it we're
good I give him 20 bucks I get my car I
leave uh we get back
to North Carolina I order all of his
documents his name was Gary
Sullivan I then go to South
Carolina when I go to South
Carolina I get a real estate agent we
drive around for a day we look at like
five or six houses I
put five Contra five
owner owner financing contracts on five
different houses so I get him he writes
up five contracts all of them I'm I'm
asking for owner financing I'll put down
10% I want owner financing two of them
end up coming back and saying yes we'll
do
it I have two closings one of them's a
house that's worth like 225,000 I put
down 25 Grand another one's uh 110,000 I
put down 11,000 so I buy these two
houses I then satisfy the loans to on
both the
houses everything seems like it's going
okay although Becky's a a lunatic at
this point she's she's had so many she
she won't take her medication she's had
so many outbursts uh that
and and we've had by this time we've had
plastic surgery like she's gotten
plastic surgery she's gotten a boob job
she's gotten lipos suction I mean all
kinds of stuff so look way
different like appearance changes or
thinner better looking you know just
tightened everything up I guess you know
she was in her she'd had a she'd had a
kid and she was 3 33 34 I don't know how
she was 20 32 33 I don't roughly my age
so yeah I thought she looked you know
she lost like 15 lbs like she was not
because of the surgery but just in
general we're not we're just working out
we're going mountain climbing we're you
know riding bikes we're doing you know
there's Fraud's not a full-time job so
you know we have plenty of time so we're
we're goofing off
and uh but she's also a lunatic you know
she's getting the cops called she's able
to go out and she's able to stay stoned
24 hours a day she's she's going out
with friends drinking I never leave the
house you know uh even to this day I
really barely ever leave the house I'm
I'm very much a homebody kind of person
so like the the idea that I'm able to
make my living doing YouTube and I never
have to leave my house M I love that I
don't ever go anywhere except for the
gym and back home that's it so what
happens is uh I I've actually moved her
out of the my apartment like I had an
apartment downtown 30 storying building
actually move her into another apartment
she's that much of a lunatic we can't
even be in the same place multiple times
I've tried to leave her she's called me
up and begged me to come back it's
horrible so I end up buying a couple
houses in in Columbia South
Carolina I satisfy the loans on the
houses I've got an ID not a driver's
license but an ID in the name of Gary
Lee
Sullivan and I refinanced I refinanced
those houses cuz keep in mind they were
owner finan in but they also had
mortgages so there's something called a
wraparound mortgage so these guys did
wraparound mortgages so let's say you
buy a house for $2 200
$250,000 and the bank lends you $200,000
MH and then you owner finance the house
to me so we do a I give you 50 Grand
down but I'm not I'm not able to get a
loan from the bank to pay off your
mortgage so what we do is you do a
wraparound mortgage so I'll pay you your
mortgage and you pay the bank so there
is a second mortgage on the property but
it's called a wrap it it's WRA it's
wrapped around your first that's legal
MH yeah so I wouldn't lie to you so it's
so there's these have wraparound
mortgages so you're always selling I and
you're good at it so I go I satisfy yeah
the loans the owner finance loans the
wraparound mortgages and I I satisfy the
loans there the original loans that
these people took out on their own
mortgages MH one of them by the way I
sat you know you have to sign as the
president of the bank right yeah so I
sign it as SE Montgomery Burns which is
the Aging tycoon in the the the guy that
owns the power plant in The Simpsons TV
show yeah so I signed that and I
notorized it which I thought was cute I
actually wanted to sign all of them
cartoon characters and Becky was
screaming her head off and wouldn't let
me do it right like I wanted to do all
the Simpsons right but she wouldn't let
me do it she's screaming and hollering
so I ended up you know see nobody knows
who C monmy Burns is so I sign it
notarize it all of those are satisfied I
then go to the multiple Bank Banks and I
refinance start refinancing all these uh
these properties multiple times so I'm
applying for these loans and I'm getting
the loans and I'm closing so I've got
like five or six loans on this one house
the house is like 225,000
I think it was like 230 whatever I I I
get I borrow like four or five loans on
that house so I borrow like
$190,000 like five times so I've got
like $800,000 and then I borrow another
three or 400,000 on the other house the
one the smaller one right so it ends up
being like $1.3 million it's actually
like 1.5 million it was more but what
happened with that was so keep in mind I
you can only open up so many bank
accounts in your name you can go to Bank
of America they'll open one then you go
to Sun Trust they'll open one they're
gonna they might even ask you did
you did you open another bank account
today because every time you do it
there's an inquiry into something called
check
systems um or acue check and so then
they go so then by the time you go to
the Third Bank they'll say listen
something's not right you've got
multiple inquiries you know if you go to
whatever mertile Bank there might be
they might go okay we're going to open
one they're going to need an explanation
but you're not you're not opening more
than three M by the third one they're be
like absolutely not something's wrong so
you know I've got multiple identities
but I can only open up so so many banks
the other problem is that these these
checks they'll only give you so much
money on a refi usually after $100,000
they only want to let you walk away with
let's say
$100,000 so one of the things I did was
I would I would typically record Another
mortgage and have them pay that mortgage
off so I had to open I
opened a corporation to do that so I
could then turn around and go open
corporate bank accounts cuz now it's not
going off my information it's going off
the corporation so I can open up
multiple corporate bank accounts well
these corporations are fake or real no
no I went to a real corporate bank
attorney corporate attorney and had him
open them I gave him whatever gave him
like $1,500 $2,000 and he opened up a
corporation for me Gary Sullivan yeah
and I then turned around and I went and
opened up multiple bank accounts in that
in those that corporation's name how how
are you keeping track of all this cuz
this is I don't so I I your head or do
you have good organiz no I have every
single identity has its own file with
with um you know plastic inlays sleeves
for their passports it's nice and
organized yeah it's super organized you
open this I'm Gary now right that's
exactly what it is like you kind of go
over boom boom boom boom you sit in your
car for a minute you put it down you
walk in MH well what happens is it went
up to like 1.5 million and I'm pulling
money out of the bank and then one day I
got a phone call on Gary Sullivan's cell
phone the guy it's a it's a lawyer they
call up he says hey I'm lawyer with
Washington Mutual we have an
issue I said what's that he says we got
a phone call from the title company one
of the title companies that I was
attempting to refinance a one of the
pieces of property with noticed that I
they had been sent they' been sent a
document that showed that I had
purchased the property and I said I
purchased it cash and I the docu that I
purchased at
cash
and they got that and there was actually
a mortgage on the property and so
somehow or another they they connected
it and they called Washington Mutual and
they said look there's an issue there's
a fraud we have a fraudulent document
here and he was like he said so we went
and we looked and it turns out that we
pulled public records and that there is
a mortgage in front of us several
mortgages in front of us so there's like
three or four mortgages in front of me
Washington Mutual you owe us and it
wasn't that much it was like 100 it was
like like 100 Grand right like 95 or 100
and I said uh okay and he said so
there's an issue here you've got a few
mortgages in front of us and we're
supposed to be a first mortgage and
we're not supposed to be two mortgages
behind or three and I was like okay
sounds like a sounds like an error not a
big deal um have you contacted law
enforcement he said no I haven't I was
hoping we could rectify this some other
way I said you know what I think we can
I'm going to have my lawyer call you
back I'm going to go to his place right
now give me about two hours no problem I
immediately run jump in my car head
towards South Carolina call my corporate
lawyer tell him look I need to talk to
you here's what's going on I explain it
to him he doesn't really understand he
says um this sounds pretty complicated I
have a my bit my wall partner is a
criminal defense attorney I'm going to
have I'm going to I set up a meeting
right now with all of us okay I get
there 45 minutes and later I walk in the
door I sit down he says what happened I
said they said you know Gary this is
this is doesn't sound right what's what
what happened I said okay so listen
bought this
house I bought it cash I then refinanced
it I didn't buy it cash but I tell them
I bought it cash I refinanced it like
four or five times within a day or two
of each other and they were like how is
that even possible I was like well I
went to different title companies and I
explain how I do it I I said Washington
Mutual just found out that they're in
like second position or third
position and or or I said but they're
probably they may be in fourth position
you know they mail these things in so
you never know and he was like oh my God
he's like that's uh what do you want to
do I said I want you to contact them and
agree for them to not contact the
authorities provided we pay them I pay
them off he do you have the money I said
I do have the money I can go get the
money right now he calls the lawyer they
this is back when faxes right so they
fax some documents back and forth they
make they do a couple emails back and
forth and uh they have a conversation I
remember the lawyer started arguing
because he wanted to charge me um like
yield spread and fees and stuff and I
was like I was like what are you talking
about like I'll pay it like so it ends
up being a little over 100,000 and I'm
like that's it so he's like okay and so
he says okay um that sounds good and so
he said okay all you have to do is go
get the check
and he said bring it to a Washington
Mutual Branch tell them to call I said
I'm not going in a Washington Mutual
Branch bro I'll bring you the check so
he calls him back he's not doing that
and he's not okay I'm not I'll bring it
here you guys take care he said no
problem okay hang up the phone and he
turns to me he says okay well we have a
problem he said we still have the
problem of these other
mortgages and I went right and he said
um and he goes okay well I said they
don't know anything he said I know but
Gary he said what if they find out I
said they find out that they're like in
second and third and fourth place he's
like right I said I I leave town and he
went they so they both laugh they Gary
you can't just leave
town they they have they have a copy of
your driver's license they have your
social security number they have your
birth certificate I said they'll find
you it's the FBI and I go you're
assuming I'm Gary Sullivan wow you tell
them and they listen they looked at me
and they
went and I I remember he said he goes
we'll uh we'll cross that bridge when we
get to it I said right my immediate
problem is getting rid of these people
and he goes right right so oh I go get
the check bring it back give it to them
never called the FBI I can't believe you
got away with the with the Washington
Mutual oh bro this is I mean these are
all really close calls it seems like you
no this is the close call I have two
more close calls that my hands sweat
thinking about
it I walk in I walk into wacovia I just
opened this account two months ago so
it's a new account so whenever I would
go in there I'd say hey I need a $7,000
$6,000 anything over $3,000 they had to
call to get permission right like author
uh authorization so she's like okay I
got to go call I said no problem so the
the girl walks in the back I'm sitting
there waiting all of a
sudden a massive person reaches over my
hand and grabs my wrist and somebody
grabs it from the other one and they
pull my hands behind my back these are
two of possibly the largest Law
Enforcement Officers I've ever seen in
my entire life and they're
massive and they they handcuff me and
they say you're um uh Mr Sullivan you're
being detained we're taking you into
custody and you know putting you uh
where holding you until a detective gets
here who are these guys is this US
Marshals or is this cops or what these
are sheriff's deputies sh sheriff's
deputies and as they walk me in right as
they walk me in the back they're calling
me Mr Sullivan right they sit me down
and by now
I'm you know the Secret Service are
looking for me they're they're calling
me uh well they were calling us John and
Jane Doe but now they figured out who we
were and so now I'm on the secret
Services Most Wanted L I'm not like
number one at that right like I probably
was but I I we just found out I was on
like on that list so it it's it's
getting bad so they sit me down and I'm
waiting and I remember thinking that the
FBI was coming you know I don't really
know at that point I couldn't tell you
the difference between everybody and
then five minutes go by and you know I'm
sitting there going what is going on do
you guys have any idea what's going
they're like we don't know we're just
grunts we just do what we're told so
suddenly this guy walks in he's probably
in his early 30s maybe he walks in gray
suit I think he looks like he's FBI he
says hey I'm a detective with the uh I
want to say Richland County you know
whatever sheriff department or police
department whatever and I was like oh
okay and he says yeah listen we've got
an issue wacovia wacovia wants this they
want us to arrest you he said that they
they're saying that you've got three
mortgages on on your house and I go is
that
illegal and he looked at me and he went
you know to be honest I don't know yeah
I I and I distinctly remember thinking
I'm walking out of here all I have to do
is convince this guy I haven't done
anything wrong he's already said he
doesn't know so he gets on the phone
with the head of wacovia fraud
department and he's tell saying this guy
is running what's called a shotgunning
scam which is absolutely right and so
what what is the shotgun it's where
you're you you close on so many loans
simultaneously they can't catch it
anyway they they start going back and
forth and he's on the phone is like um
why did you close three loans and I said
I you know what why are you pull what I
said I it's not illegal I have a first
mortgage a second mortgage and a and a
home equity line of credit that's
perfectly legal and he goes and you can
hear the guy that's not they're all
first mortgages and I said I read every
one of those documents not one of them
said they were first mortgages and they
don't first mortgages don't say they're
first mortgages it's the placement of
the mortgage placement of the lean that
determines is their first second or
third so it's possible that I wouldn't
have known it certainly that I could
have read those documents and not known
and he's like that's not true and he's
screaming and uh so I go yeah listen and
and he said well you're taking out all
cash why are you taking out all cash I
said well I mean I don't know if this
this sounds I said I don't know this
might be illegal I said I don't know I
said I mean I work for for a I work for
a um a labor company labor on
demand I pull out my business card you
can call so I'm like I work for labor on
demand
and I said um we we hire a lot of guys
that like they don't have bank account
so the company pays them and then
usually I'll pull out money and I'll
I'll cash their checks because they get
charge like 10% of these check cashing
companies and I feel bad I know the
checks are good so I just deposit them I
mean I don't think that but I don't I
don't know if that's illegal I don't
think that's illegal like if if and he's
like no no no that's fine it's it's
that's that's a decent thing to do it's
not that's fine I'm like oh okay so
where're so he's talking to the guy you
know wovi is screaming hollering he says
um uh he's doing that you know he's
going back and forth back and forth so
we're going back and forth back and I'm
just derailing everything this guy says
and at one point he says um he's
screaming he's committing fraud we want
him arrested and he's like I don't know
what to charge him with and he's like
you know he he's
saying these aren't you know how did you
know how did you he's like hey look how
did you even do this what I go look I
didn't do this I said I came to wacovia
I met with a loan officer I said I need
a first mortgage I need to pull out like
$100,000 I want to start buying houses
he goes that's right you own another
house here too don't you I said I do I
said we're putting a new roof on it
we're going to build an addition we're
putting in a pool I'm buying one right
down the street from that one I said so
I'm I'm obviously I'm pulling out money
MH I said so I told him I need $100,000
they said that's fine we can we they
said they could only get me $100,000
out for something about Fanny made
guidelines which is true and I and I
said so then she said I I can get you I
can send you to a friend of mine who's a
loan officer she can get you a second
mortgage which she did I said then I
told her she could only get me 100,000
or so 190,000 the other and she said you
should get an equity line of credit if
you're going to be doing like you know
um renovating properties so she sent me
to somebody they got me an equity line
of credit I said I said you know I
haven't committed fraud I said I
wouldn't know how to commit fraud if you
told me I said said what sounds more
reasonable a guy that works for a labor
company ripped off a bunch of banks for
over half a million dollars I said or
some loan officers got together and did
something illegal I said there's a
problem at the bank and he says I think
you've got a problem with the bank and
this guy goes nuts and while he's
screaming he needs to be arrested this
is fraud my loan officers have not done
anything illegal they wouldn't do that
he says look at his ID his ID is fake
his ID starts with
0000 South Carolina ID start with 00
This Guy's in California he has no idea
so when he says that he go he the the
detective looks P looks at my ID and he
goes listen he said this is a real ID I
ran this guy through in cic he said this
is Gary Sullivan
and I and I looked at him I goow I'm not
Gary Sullivan I go come on bro what are
we doing here and he goes I know Gary I
know and he
says I'm going to take him downtown I'm
going to talk to my whatever Lieutenant
whoever captain and I'm going to fill
out a police report and I'll let you
know and he hangs up yeah I get up
they've taken the handcuffs off I stand
up as we're walking out with the
detectives as we're all kind of walking
out he goes hey you have an ID do you
have a driver's license mhm and I went
um I do but it's in like Nevada M and he
goes oh that's right he goes you're from
Vegas and he looks at the two deputies
and they all kind of grin and I think he
ran me through
ncic which means he ran a Statewide
criminal database which means he thinks
I've been arrested three times for
prostitution in Vegas ah right I listen
I'm
humiliated I was just like and the grin
told me every and I was just like oh man
and so one of the cops goes uh here give
me the ID takes the ID he goes I'll
check and see because I have to follow
him back in my
car so he goes and by the way my car is
is in the
name Michael eer so Michael eer he
doesn't have a photograph of Michael
eert right because you can't pull up
photographs from other states
so he doesn't have a photograph but he
knows that's not my car and he asked me
whose car are you driving I said oh
that's my boss Michael eer I said that
that's my boss and he goes oh Michael
eer I said yeah exactly and he's like
and I'm like oh my God so I'm thinking
he knows Michael eer knows it's
registered in North Carolina knows the
address which is where I was currently
living that's a problem so the police
officer or the um sorry Deputy grabs the
ID walks outside comes back I have no
idea if this homeless guy has a a
driver's license in Nevada I don't know
he had nothing on him he comes back and
he he does he have a valid license he
goes yeah it's valid and he hands it to
him or he hands me the ID and he says uh
he said he goes it's valid he looked at
him he goes yeah
well he said it it says he's like he
says he's 5 foot1 like it was like 5'10
5'11 I'm clearly not 510 or 5'11 and
they all look at me and I go fellas with
a good pair of shoes like that and they
all go
H follow us Gary yeah I follow them back
to the police station Becky is calling
me on the phone screaming her head off
now I'd always told Becky if I ever get
arrested
yeah immediately go get me a lawyer the
lawyer will be able to get me out on
bond cuz it'll I'll be arrested for
something stupid M I said it'll be
something like trying to cash a check
you know a fake check or uh you know use
of somebody said it won't be all my IDs
are real so it won't be for for a fake
ID so my ident my ID won't be in
question and most most um police
departments and sheriffs at that time
did not run your fingerprints through
aphys so they didn't because they charge
them for that so they don't they don't
typically do it unless your identity is
in question mine wouldn't be I have a
valid driver's license or a valid ID in
that state so I go back she's screaming
she's like oh my God you don't
understand I just checked the I just
checked the um just checked the internet
the
website you are number one on the secret
Services most wanted list and I was like
I got bigger problems right now they
just held me in the bank I'm following
them right now and she was like yeah get
on the get on the interstate go go I
cannot go the detectives in front of me
the cops are behind me they're escorting
me to the police listen she's like oh my
God run run I go look not a NASCAR
driver like I'm
driving it's it's a it's a sports car
but it's not going to outrun a radio or
a helicopter like I I'm not that's not
going to happen I know it looks it seems
nice I'm not that guy um so I was like I
can't I said look you don't understand I
was in handcuffs 30 minutes ago I just
talked my way out of him I'm going to
get out of this and I and I said the
worst that happens is I'll be
arrested as Gary solivan you can get me
a police you can get me a um an attorney
he can get me out and she goes I'm not
getting you an attorney I'm not getting
you out on bond I'm not risking
everything I've got for you because she
has all the money we've Got7
800,000 at this point so oh and by the
way she's not even in North Carolina at
this point she's relocated to Houston
Texas because when this scam broke fell
apart we were going to move to Texas so
we were already moving
there so but by the way just a small
tangent where do you store money in
situations like this that uh like when
you talk about 800,000 you have to keep
moving accounts to make sure it's not
accessible by FBI well there's about 600
or 700,000 in accounts but keep in mind
I'm getting it out in cash like there's
no Bitcoin there's no none of that stuff
exists so my you know I I I probably
should have bought diamonds or bought
gold or bought like I don't know any of
that all I could think of is go in
slowly be patient mhm um don't drain the
accounts you know fluctuate them like I
was writing getting cashiers checks from
one account to another so the balances
were doing this you know they weren't
just going they were doing this and then
one day boom they're gone okay got it so
got it so we got out like whatever we
got we've gotten out like 6 or 700,000
there's still like 600 or 700,000 in the
bank mhm but I I'm not going back I'm
done I actually be honest with you so
well look I I go in so I go into the
police
station and well first she says if you
go in the police station I'm done if you
get arrested you're done I said well
then I better not get arrested I hang up
the phone the cop standing behind my car
MH get out I go in the police station I
walk in I fill out the police report he
tells me I got to talk to my captain
real quick can you wait he couldn't
leave me in his cubicle he was can you
wait in the hallway I can't leave you in
the I said no no problem so I go and I
wait in the hallway in the hallway are a
whole wall full of on the corkboard um
wanted posters black and white black and
white black you know car thief you know
rapist murderer secret Services uh uh
Most
Wanted and I'm on the I'm on my face is
right there I'm like holy Jesus and you
know everything in me told me run bro
just just fucking H ass right now right
now just go you you've your lucks run
out
not that I even thought he was there
were so many I didn't think he was going
to see it but it it just everything in
me just said run the problem is if
you've ever been a into a police station
you're not getting out of it you
understand get a lot of cops around well
not just that but they buzz you in yeah
you get in the elevator you have to
punch in a code you have to punch in a
code to get back out of the elevator you
have to punch in a code to get into the
next door there's like I mean it it
was it's impossible like I'm never I'm
not going to get in the elevator so guy
comes back up to the cop comes back up
he said hey Gary appreciate it no
problem my captain said we're good we're
going to wait for a phone call from the
no wait the the district attorney called
already they're looking into
it um I'm going to go ahead and let you
go I go downstairs he walks me out to my
car he said look do me a favor he's like
we we do have some serious questions at
this point like the district jorney say
there's there's some something up he
said I said not with me and he said
'well just do me a favor he don't don't
leave town I said bro I own two houses
here I'm not going anywhere I said I'm
telling you right now I said wovi they
they fucked up and he's like I believe
you I believe you said or he said
whatever he's like I hope you I hope
they were right I'm sure you're right
okay so I get in my car I leave I go to
two more Banks pull out more money but
at one point I go into a bank and like
two of the Cashers practically slam into
each other trying to get to the phone
and I can tell something's up like oh no
no no no something's up so I back I get
my car back out one of them kind of runs
out and looks at tag number you know so
I drive I get in the interstate I go you
know Becky of course she's you know I'm
sorry I I love you I would have never
done I was just scared I
understand I go Becky sounds like a
handful oh my God
bro so I go all the way back to
Charlotte I pack up my apartment I drive
all the way to Houston with my entire
apartment packed up by the way in a
U-Haul like the next day the next
morning we she's got people there
packing it up movers
mhm we pack it up I drive the U-Haul all
the way to Houston takes a couple
days I unload it into we have uh some
guys unload it into a uh into a storage
unit because I'm going to stay with
Becky until I find my own apartment as
we're driving around the neighborhood
super nice she's living in like whatever
like that like that 20th floor or
something of some huge highrise great
apartment we drive by and I go oh stop
the car and I I I I want to get out I
there one of those cone things where
there's flyers for the house for a house
I jump out and I get the flyer and and
she's like what are you doing I go I
just want to you know I look looking at
the flyer and she says uh I don't want
to do a scam here I want to live here
this place is nice I love it here and I
went right I understand I said I'm not
going to I said no but I have a find an
apartment mhm and she goes oh you just
I'm just so disgusting you can't SP
stand to spend even a couple weeks with
me you just and she goes just ballistic
she screaming at the top of her lungs
and I know she's going to get me caught
MH she's never going to get me out right
she's already told me that mhm so we go
back to the apartment we go
upstairs I was so scared of this this
chick bro I I was so scared I remember I
was going up in the
elevator and this girl gets on on this
clearly a stripper mhm I mean drop dead
just but wearing stripper clothes yep
and I'm star like and and as soon as she
got on Becky gave me that with the face
and I'm like this I'm like staring in
the
corner and never look at the girl and I
remember we get off the elevator Bing it
opens I bolt off it Becky bolts bolts
office and I off the elevator and I
remember she squeals um I bet you just
love the fuck that tramp and the girl as
the elevator doors are closing she goes
hey I thought that was funny so I go to
the apartment yeah we we have a
screaming match kind of do I want to
split up the money she tells me she's
not going to give me split the money why
um because she said you can go somewhere
else and do this again you'll have a
million dollars right in six months you
know I have to live off this money did
she threaten you oh she threatened the
it was it was funny too because the
conversation back and forth I remember
saying no I want halfen and she goes and
she said uh I'll give you $10,000 I said
you're out of your mind I said I said
I'm tell right now you come up with
something reasonable I'll take all of it
and she said um what did she say I said
I'll take all of it she goes and what
escaping that U-Haul they're going to
she the cops are going to be looking for
in 5 minutes and I went I just remember
thinking oh wow and keep in mind all of
my IDs everything are in the storage
unit that she has a key to like I'm not
getting those it's over yeah I got an ID
right now that says my name is Michael
eert yeah I driving a I I got I'm
driving a U-Haul Van yeah sounds like
she has a lot of negotiation leverage
right so we start arguing back and forth
and she says $100,000 I'll give you
$100,000 I said I'll take it she counts
it out uh counts out the $100,000 later
when I recount it it wasn't even 100 it
was like 98,000 that's fine it's fine so
um but you know we've got them all
marked you know 2,000 5,000 6,000 she's
like 2,000 5,000 that's 12 that's she
ends up um stiffing me that's fine it's
not my money so I I take it I end up you
know I take it I leave and as I'm
leaving she'd always called me before on
the phone and begged and pleaded and
cried I messed up please give me a
chance I'm sorry I'm I I'll take my
medication I'm sorry I thought it was
better I thought it was okay and I
remember walking out I put my cell phone
on the counter and just walked out went
downstairs got in the truck and drove um
and uh
drove when I got
to Louisiana I stopped at Baton Rouge
and got a I mean at some point I stopped
and I got like I think I got a room or
something at one point I know I stopped
so you drove without a plan essentially
I drove back
to Charlotte to get my car got it so I
can't be driving I can drive this right
so I stopped at Baton Rouge at one point
and got a a cell phone you know like a a
burner phone like a Verizon Virgin
Mobile or something uh one of those
little phones so I bought one I call a
few people at home back home call my mom
um she's in tears crying my dad's
yelling in the background I call uh what
your mom just a small tangent what what
did your mom and dad say you remember
anything stand out to you is
no my dad you know Pi you know well I
hope you're happy you know your mother
every time someone mentions your name
your mother cries which is funny to me
cuz like growing up like he was never
concerned about her crying you know so
it was like since when did you care you
know and I just so I mean my dad like
he's an alcoholic you know he's been
sober for two
years a month and a half drunk drunken
binge or drinking sorry drinking binge
and then sober for six months and then
did it again then sober you know it just
went back and forth yeah and uh in and
out of uh alcohol you know drug programs
uh but like I said worked for State Farm
and State Farm he was a top selling
manager and so what they would do is
they they' put him into a 30-day program
and and and I mean like a like he has to
stay there and they had they were the
only ones that had that kind of control
cuz they're like you're going to do this
and you're going to pass it we're firing
you you know
know he he made a lot of money and he
made a lot of money for State Farm and
he hired he hired and trained a ton of
agents and he had one of the top
performing
agencies so he was worth a lot to them
and uh but so I I end up what ends up
happening is I'm driving through I I get
that phone that I was telling you about
and I call so I call talk to my mom
she's you know she's crying she's like I
love you so much you I just want to make
sure you're you're safe I end up calling
uh Susan Barker which was one of the
Brokers that worked for me at the time
call her and I say hey what's going on
how's you like oh Matt and you know
what's going on FBI is everywhere like
they're they're they've been talking to
everybody they you know and this has
been it's like a year and a half at this
point and she's like it's not you know
they're they come around every once in a
while everybody's gone in everybody's
cooperating everybody's talking
everybody's blaming you um including her
and uh and so as we're talking she said
look I I've the main FBI agent on the
case she told me if I ever spoke with
you to have you call her and I was like
yeah I'm good so she goes her name is
Candace and she she wants you to call
her she say at least call her for God's
sakes maybe you could just turn yourself
in maybe maybe you can negotiate just
like a couple years like cuz they're if
they're not going to catch you then then
maybe turning yourself maybe it'll help
at least hear her out and I was like
okay all right you're right hang up the
phone I call Candace she picks up the
phone I go hey I said she goes who's
this and I go this is Matt Cox and she
goes hey hello Mr Cox how are you and I
go I'm I'm doing okay how's it going I
understand you want to talk to me she
goes I do I said what can I do for you
she go you can turn yourself in I go
well that's not going to happen I said
what else do you need and she said I
think that you should think about
turning yourself in I said why well what
am I looking at she said well that's not
how it
works the way it works is you turn
yourself in
and you know we take that into
consideration I said no no no no I said
that's not good enough I said I'm not
not stupid enough to turn myself in and
hope for the best
MH so she says um well let's talk about
this and I said well what am I looking
at she go I don't really know I I can't
you know really I can't tell you that
and she I said well well then we don't
really have anything to talk about she
go well wait a second she said let me
hold on let me call the US attorney
maybe we can work something out so she
calls the US she so I said okay I'll
call you
back and she
said well give me your phone number I'll
call you and I no no no I said I um I'll
call you I said I'm going to hang up the
phone I'm going to turn the phone off I
said for all I know you're triangulating
this phone call right now or something
you know and she Sayes oh give me a
break she's you're not that important
and I I remember
thinking who do you think you are like
like she like right like you're you're
just some little fraudster guy running
around you know like you're not a
terrorist MH you know like and I
almost I almost was like okay here's my
number which she probably already had MH
but I almost like was like okay I'll
wait for your call and left my phone I
said no you know what I said I'm GNA
hang up the phone I'm gonna turn it off
anyway I'll I'll call you back she said
all right whatever I hang up I turn off
the phone it turns out I found out later
when I ordered the Freedom of
Information Act she actually immediately
called US Marshals and they immediately
called took the phone number and tracked
back the phone and immediately had two
Marshals from uh Baton Rouge or go
immediately to the place where I had
been
mhm damn oh listen yeah I mean they were
fast yeah she's and she's good too not
just that I I made the initial calls
sitting there in that where I went and
bought the phone it was like a gas
station there was also like a a subway
station I had ordered like a Subway I
was eating a Subway playing on my
computer program the phone and make
phone calls so by the time I talked to
her and they're they're driving I by
that point I walked and gotten into the
vehicle my vehicle and I leave but you
know who knows I don't know if they
showed up 30 minutes late I don't know
like I could have hung out like oh I'm
just going to finish my food could have
shown up so I go I I call her back an
hour or two later she says
listen you know the first time he wasn't
hadn't got back with her then he did
then he came back he said seven years
he's got to turn him self in here so
okay seven years that's that seems like
a lot and I was like seven years and
that's seven years for for I goes that
and I kept saying is that seven years
for everything and she goes yeah that's
for everything I was like that's
everything like everything and that
happened like in Atlanta like in some
stuff that you don't know about she said
look what's important is you turn
yourself in in Tampa and I was like okay
well I'm closer to Atlanta why wouldn't
I turn myself in in Atlanta and she's
like look you know uh you don't want to
do that you don't want to do that well
because that would have been the Secret
Service would have gotten credit if I'd
walked in there right so you know and I
don't know anything about rivalries and
how they work at that time I do now but
so we go back and forth back and forth
and I continually ask her does that
include Atlanta and everything and at
some point I realized like oh she's just
not answering and so finally I said
listen you keep dodging this
question and she said all I can speak
for is Tampa so if you come back to
Tampa and you cooperate against everyone
seven
years and she's telling me she wants me
to cooperate against my ex-wife and I'm
like I'm not going to do that I said my
ex-wife didn't do anything she doesn't
know anything she didn't do anything
she's never you know well that's not
what I heard then she's going on and on
um and I was like no no I was like oh
wow I was like so that's just for and
she's like that's right I said all right
we're done she no wait I can call the
Atlanta us attorney I said nah lady I
wouldn't believe you if you told me
water was wet I don't trust you and I
hung up the phone threw it out the
window and I end up going to
Charlotte drop off the U-Haul
Van go to my I I would brought it back
to the dealer it's not like ianded I
brought it back um so I I bring bring it
back I go to my old apartment in
downtown
Charlotte and I remember thinking I
would be okay and I know by this
point that they they knew Michael
Eckert's name they had the address in
Charlotte so I know they they by this
point it's been five six days so I know
they've tracked him back
there so I figured if I could get my car
I'm fine so I go into the apartment
complex and it you know it's like five
it's one of those four five six story
apartment you know those are parking
things that stack up so I go into this
you know underground it's not
underground but whatever this parking
garage thing so I go in I'm on like the
third floor or something I I look at my
car you know and I I get in my car and I
remember as soon as I walk drove out of
the the parking garage I was like I'm
good so I can go ahead and pull across
the street and stop at Starbucks so I
stop at Starbucks I walk into Starbucks
I order Starbucks I'm standing there
waiting for the barista I look over and
it's two people from the apartment
complex staring at
me like that's I'm like and they're
they're whispering and pointing and and
I remember thinking this is like the
fifth of the month I hadn't paid my rent
I hadn't been there so I thought makes
sense maybe they did they like I'm
picturing an eviction notice or a
three-day notice on my door something
and I'm like okay and then one of them
bolts out the back the woman there's a
guy and a girl the woman walk runs out
the back he standing there staring at me
I get my my my my vinty vanilla latte
all right I get my little I get my frr
drink yeah so I get my frr drink I I
walk out I get into the car he follows
me get in the car I set everything up I
put my seat belt on I'm okay he's
standing there staring at me I you know
I'm thinking something's wrong like
what's up and all of and I'm I check to
see there's no traffic I'm good I'm
about to about to leave and he starts
screaming he's right here he's right
here I look in the rear of your mirrror
there's two guys running towards the
back of my
car I punch it and I take off sounds
dramatic wasn't that dramatic I'd
already there was no cars I knew there
was no cars already pulling out you know
wasn't like a TJ hooker where I jumped
over the slid across the uh the hood and
SL you know they didn't catch the car
and hang on the back but you know I so
they're running and I boom hit it did
you spill the coffee or no cuz it was
one of those little things it was
actually but but it you're making it
sound like you were pretty calm weren
you panicking here I was terrified yeah
terrified So you you're under under fear
you still operate like yeah I operate
like I it's funny you say that because
the the Secret
Service when they talk to these guys
they all the people that they spoke with
said the same thing over and over again
the guy was a professional he never
seemed upset he never seemed agitated he
always he was never in a hurry yeah he
you know like but most of the time I I
wasn't because I you know it wasn't
until the police got involved or the law
federal law enforcement got involved
that I I started really you know getting
anxious so at that point I drive I take
off I drive about a mile down the road
who are the two guys by the way was it I
thought it was FBI I ordered the Freedom
of Information Act when I got to prison
at some point you know in the future
and it was it was US
Marshals right so sounds pretty dramatic
to me US Marshals running towards your
car you pull it I mean I mean you know
but it's all right it's hard not to tell
it like it's dramatic I understand it
was there was not much traffic it was
okay it's not like their you know their
fingers were at the back of the car
they're holding on you know but it was
yeah if I had waited an an extra 20
seconds yeah they would have been on my
car they would have been right there at
the door did you consider giving up
there or
no no all I could think of was listen my
my instinct is get out is go go go go go
go you're already on the run I'm already
in trouble it's not like they're going
to be they're going to it's they're
going to add anything although to be
honest you know it only got worse
because at that point actually at that
point I drive down the road I stop at a
homeless facility I survey three guys
I'm a mile down the road like looking
back on I think what were you thinking
but there were three three homeless guys
that were in their early 30s and they
were they were all Caucasian that's hard
to find so trust me I've looked spent
hours before track finding these guys so
that's like the the the golden thing
you're looking for is white guys in
their 30s right cuz that's I was in my
30s that I wasn't an old man like I am
now so I I survey them I drive straight
to Nashville yeah get to
Nashville drive through an area called
uh Green
Hills
um well I first I when I got to
Nashville I stayed the night and the
next day I went into I'm gonna say up a
UPS Store it was actually a Kinkos there
used to be they used to be called Kinkos
but remember Kinkos they got bought by
um FedEx I feel like oh is it FedEx
FedEx okay then it was a FedEx store so
I go in there and you give them like 50
bucks or something or 20 bucks or
something they'd give you like a 100
business cards so I get a I go get a a
burn a phone number a burner phone I go
in there I make up oh I call and get a
phone number from HQ the local HQ I come
up with the name manufactured funding
group I've got two phone numbers I get
business cards made with a name one of
the guys name that I surveyed was um uh
his his actual name was um Joseph Marian
Carter Jr I went by Carter so I get
business cards made of of Joseph
Carter I then drive through Green Hills
took him like an hour uh to get the card
so I'm driving through Green Hills I'm
planning on going to an apartment but
I'm still I don't have an idea I don't
have anything like I'm I'm wondering how
what am I going to do how am I going to
get a place to stay I'm going to stay in
a hotel like what am I doing I'm I'm
using an an ID that the cops are looking
for so as I'm driving trying to find
this big apartment complex there's a guy
putting a sign in the front yard of like
a townhouse CU several tow houses and I
probably in his 60s I pull in jump out
of the car and I said hey is that this
for rent he said yes it is I said oh
okay uh yeah can I see it sure I go in
check it out come back downstairs it's
perfect said listen I uh you know I work
for a company you know manufactured
funding group boom handam thing I said I
I've been in in uh uh Europe for the
last I forget what I said I said England
I had some little town outside of London
say in you know whatever Dexter you know
London for the past 5 years I don't
really have any any credit but I said I
I can put down a double the security
deposit or you know whatever you need
here's my business card he looked at me
and he looked at my car and he goes
you look like an honest young man he
said I'll uh I'll take the first month's
rent and and a deposit mhm and he said
now go get a lease right now and I said
okay and I said oh okay filled out a
lease right then gave me the keys like
nice like very trusting in in in that
town well that oh yeah but there must
have been also something about you where
you're just I mean I don't got a nice
car I know you're going to get a lot of
comments that say White Privilege but
that's that's what I I think the
Charisma has something to do with it
yeah um well I so he gave I appreciate
that so he gave me the
keys listen I ordered all
of all of uh Joseph Carter's Vital
Information right like all of his uh
birth certificate social security card
everything uh that night mhm from like a
Kingo or some of the I forget
but from some one of these places I went
online you could go online back then
right like there wasn't Wi-Fi everywhere
so I ordered the stuff it shows up a
couple days later I take that
information I go and I get a driver's
license we're about within like seven or
eight days I've got a driver's license
in his name m i get in that car U
Michael Eckert's car I drive it all the
way back to Nashville I leave it
long-term parking get on a plane fly
back to
Nashville go in and buy a brand new car
was brand new it was a couple years old
but from like CarMax
mhm within 2 weeks I am completely 100%
set up I start dating for three four
months that gets really boring and uh
where where again in Nashville you said
Nashville okay got it so I started
dating a bunch of chicks and then I end
up meeting this one girl by the way are
you lonely here cuz you're on on the run
is that listen being I'm telling you
right now being on the Run was the best
part of my life really everybody you how
all these guys say it was horrible and I
was I was so concerned and looking over
my shoulder and it wasn't I wasn't keep
in mind I I've gotten I've gotten five
or six traffic tickets while on the run
I went to traffic school as someone else
I got so many traffic tickets in his
name I went to traffic school as him
like if I got pulled over like I'm not
concerned so your confidence just was
and I'm I'm driving driving a vehicle in
the name of the driver's license that I
have that was issued by that state yeah
full coverage insurance I'm not an idiot
I'm not driving around a stolen car with
a broken tail light and a body in the
trunk like I'm covered like I'm not
concerned about the local cops uh PL
plus you're going to Starbucks sipping
your coffee and driving away from uh US
Marshall that was you could start
believing that it's impossible to catch
you that is exactly what it is it's it's
every time I just kept getting more and
more emboldened more and more cocky
arrogant like they're not going to catch
I'm too good you know which is great
until they catch you and
so I I meet a girl named Amanda Gardner
well what I end up doing is keep mind
I've only got 100,000 or so so I go and
I start buying houses in the area in
this area called JC napor next to it's
just close to downtown and I buy these
houses and I start Rec I buy them for
like 60 70,000 and I record the sales at
210 190 2205 that sort of thing same
thing and I refinance the house as I
start pulling out
money I meet this girl uh Amanda Garder
she we hit it off within a few months
she's moved in to we move into a house
in that area I renovate a house we move
in
there I borrow $3.5 million and I'm
buying houses now I'm buying houses
recording the value I start all over you
know I borrow like whatever $3 and5
million I meet a Amanda we move in
together uh we're we're we're buy do you
tell her do you tell her she kind of you
know what she knew was that you know
it's it's it's odd right I have no
photographs everything I own is brand
new she's like you don't there's nothing
in this house that's more than four
months old so 6 months old you have no
photographs you have no internet
presence you have no you know it's every
stick of clothing is brand new you don't
have old pairs of jeans you tell their
stories about the past of any like is
there a
fabricated the init initially there was
a fabricated version that I owned a I
owned a mortgage
company um my typical story was like I
owned a mortgage company and I got
bought out by Household Bank started
doing very well I got bought out by
Household Bank I have a no non-compete
Clause I got you know I ended up with
like half a million dollars after paying
off all my bills uh and just decided to
kind of travel around the the US and now
I'm here I'm going to start renovating
houses
but that you know you don't call home
nobody calls you your family doesn't
call you you tell stories about your mom
your dad your brother your sister
friends I don't know any of these
friends never seen any of these friends
they never call you they never you know
it's just like it's like a shit so at
some point I basically just said to her
look I'm listen at one point I had to
have a check cut I refinanced the house
right and I had like I want to say I'm
going to say something like it might
have been 30,000 but let's say 20,000 I
had a $20,000 check cut to Amanda
Gardner M cuz you have to have these
checks you can't have them cut to me so
I would say hey there's a second
mortgage on there and I'd provide a
second mortgage or I'd provide you know
i' provide different things and I knew
if I I need names of people to cut these
things to so I had a check cut for
whatever so I remember we're at dinner
one night this is before she really
knows who I am and I said hey uh I said
oh and she goes oh did you had a refine
she goes how'd that thing go you're
refinance I oh thank God you said that
boom I said I need you to deposit this
give check for 20,000 she's like um I
can I can I can go tomorrow and I can
deposit it and I um um and I'm like no
no I'm like look it's fine just deposit
it so I can get as soon as it clears I I
I'll get you a cashier check um I was
like No just deposit it and keep it in
your bank it's fine so she's
like what is going on you know and so we
have this conversation and I tell her
look
people are looking for me who law
enforcement which ones all of them you
know she's like that doesn't even wa for
what I
go mostly bank fraud and she's like well
how are they not finding youh I mean
everybody you know people know you like
you know your general contractor which I
met four months before this guy six
months before this one two months before
you know she's like so and so so and so
so and I'm like right right well I
saidwell she's like I mean they've got
your name they've got you I go well
that's identity theft and she was like
what do you mean I saidwell my name's
not you know my name is not it's not
Joseph
Carter and what is your what is your
name I go look you know it's it's you
don't need don't even worry about it
this is what's happening this is where
I'm at this has been months into the
relationship I mean this is or i' say
maybe a month or two in but you know she
was just too inquisitive and oh I know
what it was she found like 40 $3,000 in
cash in my freezer one night that was
another thing that happened she went to
get a popsicle and she opened up the the
flip to get a popsicle and she opened
the wrong one and it was all cash and
she was like like you know I the other
day you know in this conversation she
like the other day I opened up the
popsicle box and there's cash and I'm
like so I kind of explain it but I had a
feeling she's not going to she's going
to be okay with this you know so she was
okay she was okay with it like I mean to
me that's just a fascinating
conversation to have like it was a great
conversation because often times in
relationships you learn about each other
and you find out new things and here you
find out that's a doozy yeah it's a good
one to find
out the name you're using is not your
real name and the Secret Service the FBI
and everybody else are looking for you
yeah and you're like to be honest you're
not a violent criminal so it's like and
I you know you know but she didn't know
my name like she was like
she and I told her I said look if you
start digging if you find out my name
like I'll leave like there's certain
things that catch you staying in contact
with people that you know that's how you
get caught you know going back to see
people that's how you get caught you
know um telling people who you are
that's how you get caught and I was like
so I'm Joseph
Carter everything's fine and she was
like okay you know in keep in mind too
this girl do you oh your car is broken
or your car's not doing well take it and
trade it in we'll go get you another car
we go get you you know an Infinity you
know FX or whatever you know a $55,000
$60,000 vehicle she's
driving the equivalent of a a beat up
old Nova you know I mean it's you want
to go on vacation we'll go on vacation
you want to do this you want to do that
so you know we're buying houses I I'm
we're we're renovating houses we're
we're building brand new houses we're
buying Lots like she's like in the
middle of this like holy Jesus there's
hundreds of thousands of dollars in the
bank in our bank account uh her bank
account I open up a corporation in her
name she's opening up bank accounts
she's got web there's websites it's it's
a lot and while this is
happening we start seeing a a a friend
of hers so this other girl comes in the
picture her name's Trina and um Trina is
um semi- lesbian
so is is this like a sexual thing or
actual relationship no it's no it's more
like a she's coming over a couple times
a week okay so we've got a ton of tons
going
on uh
and I put this so while this is
happening I I end up coming out in like
several magazine so I'm thinking this
whole thing's dying down but it's not
dying down because now I just got caught
and handcuffed in a bank walked out of
the police station outran Marshals
although that that part the Marshall
thing never was never in the papers but
um the getting caught and handcuffed in
the bank when that hit the papers that's
everywhere bro that's huge you know
suddenly Chicago Tribune's running a
series The fugitives um I'm in Bloomberg
business week they run articles article
called you know sharks in the housing
pool uh then you've got a Fortune
Magazine comes out with a thing because
by now guess what Becky's been caught oh
Becky Becky oh Becky is she in Houston
or whatever in Houston got caught and
did she but gangster bro like the way
she here's the thing hey there you go no
oh no she told on me immediately oh she
did oh no it's fine she do the right
thing so here here's what's funny about
that I don't know about that she here's
what she says loyalty is everything in
this world my friend that you and I
disagree on I just took off I just took
off still on her and left her with with
with listen with like six or like five
or $600,000 is what I left her with it's
not it's not all about money Matthew
it's also about just like you know ride
or die there's a meaning to that my God
I'm sorry go ahead she told she said
everything well here's what what when I
say gangster when she gets caught yeah
um they come in she's in the middle of
beauty school she's paid for beauty
school she's going through beauty school
she's going to open like a salon or
something so she's in there cutting hair
in a class you know on a mannequin and
all of a sudden like five or six Secret
Service agents come in guns drawn
screaming get on the ground get on the
ground she said everybody dropped the
ground she said I'm sitting there with
scissors
going you know they grab her they
handcuff her they bring her in and the
whole time now at that point she was
Rebecca well she was yeah her name was
Rebecca hickey she went by Becca she so
she's Rebecca hickey which is you know
it's she's got a Texas driver's license
the whole thing and they're screaming at
her and they she they put her in the car
and they're driving the whole way she go
the guy the secret service agent told me
45 minutes she's telling us you're
losing your job bro you're losing I mean
he he's like I I couldn't believe it
like we we got pictures of her we're
like this is you she's like that's not
me are you in insane look at that chubby
little thing she would not budge till
they actually put her hand on the
scanner and she goes okay I'm I'm
Rebecca Hal what do you
need they're like where's Matt cooch
she's I have no idea that fucker left me
like a year ago
so um so but she contributed to the
story to the legend that's already
growing oh oh because she was
interviewed by uh Fortune Magazine and
it was horrendous the article is
horrendous he was abusive he he's a Don
Juan that that forced me to fall in love
with him commit mortgage fraud and then
took all the money and left by the way
they found like 40 or 50 Grand on her
and maybe another 30 or 40 in her bank
account and no other
money yeah where's the other money um so
anyway and she was by the way she got
caught she was in communication with her
family
was so she's talking to her mom that's
when she got caught Tim and her mother
through multiple conversations one
conversation being Mom I'm doing fine
I'm I can't tell you where I am you know
exactly but I I'm in Houston Texas I'm
fine next one 6 months later I enrolled
in Beauty School Houston Texas Beauty
School how many are there Y and her mom
bipolar I just want to see my daughter
yeah I'm going to call the Secret
Service yep I'm doing the right thing
yeah and honestly she is doing the right
thing so um so you're getting more and
more
famous nationally right so I've got all
these houses you you're you're having
threesome with Amanda and Trina and and
what ends up happening is we end up
going on you know and listen Amanda and
I we've gone on we've gone to Greece
Italy um Croatia um we're we're we've
gone we're going on multiple just
multiple trips
and we just gotten back from like a
10day cruise of the Greek
Isles
and there's we get home and Amanda goes
online and there's a Blog about dat line
about their one of their new specials
called the thief of
hearts and that's me apparently I'm the
thief of
hearts and I'm apparently going around
and I'm and it's it's based on you know
Rebecca's you know Becky's story that
I'm wooing women to commit fraud
stealing all the money and then leaving
them to hold the bag
well they interviewed her they're
interviewing multiple people multiple in
my uh in my case they put together this
they're putting together an
episode going to be released in a few in
a month or so so I'm terrified I've at
this point I've been on the run three
years and I'm like I there's lots of
things things I could care less about
Fortune I don't know anybody that reads
Fortune Bloomberg come on I hang out
with I'm hanging out with contractors
and laborers and you know I'm not
hanging out with these guys so you know
local news who cares you know even even
local news channels you know I don't
care but dat line there weren't 400
channels back then you know so Dateline
comes out even if you don't see it the
first time they're going to rerun it in
3 months or 6 months or 5 year 10 years
from now they might rerun it again my
face is going to be on it so I could be
perfectly fine five years from now in
one day I the Barista that I go to every
every other day look looks at dat line
and goes oh my God that's Mr Johnson or
that's Mr Thomas or whatever so the
point is is that I was like I got to go
I can't stay here I got to get out of
the country so I was going to go to um
well we really started doing research
and Amanda ended up saying Australia
Australia at the time I don't know how
it is now but at the time if you went to
Australia with like it's like
$100,000 and a business plan you could
become a permanent resident alien you
you you can't vote but you can buy
property you can open a business but you
can't get a job and they didn't require
a fingerprints so there's no criminal um
background check now if you wanted to be
a citizen you have to get an FBI
criminal background check like I no I'm
so I was like wow I can go there and
start a business and I'm going to start
show up with a couple million so what we
do is we start refinancing houses we
start pulling out money as quick as we
can I'm asking guys laborers guys that I
work with my general contractor my real
estate agent hey man can you cash this
check for six grand you C nobody says no
everybody yeah no problem no problem no
few guys like yeah man if you give me
10% yeah I'll give you 10% so that's
happening we're pulling out cash
um one
day a Manda gives Trina a bunch of
checks and asks her to cash them that
Sparks a
conversation that like what it was
happening she confides
in by this point by the way Amanda knows
who I am MH so by this point she's
actually came across the letter that I
wrote to my parents when I left Tampa so
she's figured out who I
am she tells Trina his name's Matt Cox
dat Line's coming out we're goingon to
we're leaving we got to get a bunch of
cash and Trina goes okay I'll cash the
checks what she does instead is she
calls the Secret Service they watch my
house for three days I come home one
day they pull the cars
up and they arrest
me so you know it's a little bit longer
than that but that's shorter just a
short version of me getting arrested and
you know I probably skipped over so
simple because you gotten the way with
much more complex
situations it's women man it's women uh
joking they also are the thing that make
life worthwhile listen God bless Trina
she did the right thing it honestly
based on there you go back to the right
thing but I mean based on what she saw
uhuh based on what the Secret Service
told her
and what in the the articles that she's
reading I'm a bad guy I mean I'm a bad
guy in general right so I don't deserve
loyalty I I don't think so um I'm
ripping people off and she's thinking
that her friend is in
danger you know the FBI saying I have a
weapon he's he's dangerous he's got a
weapon you know we believe he's armed
and dangerous when I was in Florida I
had a concealed weapons permit but I
gotten rid of both my guns when I was
placed on probation I've never had one
since I've never touched a gun since but
they use that to say you know they said
oh he had a concealed weapon for him
okay well then he's armed in dangerous
like there's these little things and
think they're telling her read this
article look he forces girls to fall in
love with them then he he that's what
she's going to do your friend so she
negotiated a also I think she got 10,000
I think which is embarrassing I'm I'm
ashamed that she she got
$110,000 and said everything yeah and
and told them this is where he is his
name is Joseph Carter you know he's uh
you know this is where he is they watch
it they grab me they arrest me they
bring me
downtown you know what what did what did
you feel like when you got it didn't
feel good bro it was bad it was a bad
day it was a bad day first of
all Casina Royale was coming out on
Friday yeah it was the first Daniel
Craig as James Bond and the whole week
I'd been telling Amanda I'm want to go
see Casina Royale she go okay well on
Saturday we're going to go to the
Festival I go that's fine but on Friday
Cina and she's like right Cina Royale
and she okay by the way on Thursday I
thought we could go to dinner that's
fine but on Friday Cino Royale and when
they put the handcuffs on you remember
the first thing I thought of I'm not
going to fucking to see see royal I'm
not going to get to see it not going to
see and I saw it about about five six
years later and when on the
institution's movie channel you know was
nice it's not the same but um yeah so I
they they bring me to Nashville then
they transport me to all over the place
I go on you know uh Conair they fly me
to
Oklahoma uh they fly me to
Atlanta then I I get go to Atlanta I'm
placed in the US Marshalls holdover uh I
get assigned an attorney go in front of
the
judge plead not guilty uh meet with my
attorney you always plead not guilty you
know whenever you think people say can
you believe that he plead not guilty
that's the first thing nobody walks in
and pleads guilty you plead not guilty
while you kind of figure out what you're
going to do so I plead not guilty
there's no bond uh obviously I've got
they caught me when they caught me I had
four or five
passports
so that's no good um they they charged
me with uh you know um bank fraud
conspiracy commit bank fraud wire fraud
mail fraud um
passport fraud conspiracy or what was
the other um aggravated identity theft
money laundering use of a fraudulent
passport uh you know and there's like
there's there's like you know 30 counts
of this 20 counts of this 20 but none of
that matters like even if you just took
the dropped all the counts to one count
and stacked them it's like 150 something
years not so everything everything they
could and that's so they always say
you're looking at 150,000 you know your
lawyers they're like this you're not
looking at that looking at 54 years what
that's no better that's no better so uh
yeah so uh my lawyer comes in and sees
me one day you know like our first
meeting and I she says you know I'm uh
Millie Millie
dun and she says uh listen I've looked
at everything for first they say you're
responsible for it's like 25 or 20 or 30
25 or 26
million in loss and I'm like that's I've
never that's not true that's not true
and I was like you know not even I said
not even potential law there's no way I
mean there's not way and then they come
back she comes back and she says well
they're
saying 19 million now it's not
possible I I didn't no so when the FBI
is saying like 40 million they're saying
11.5 in in Tampa plus 40 million for the
mortgage company so that it ends up
being like plus what I stole on the run
it ends up being like 55 million but she
gets them to drop like the 40 like
that's that's that's his Brokers that's
this that's that drop it and they're
like we he's so done it doesn't matter
they Dro that so it ends up it ends up
being like 15 million and then it's down
to what is he o they said 9.5 and I got
it down to like six million so you know
which you know I'm good for so uh what
ends up happening is they've charged me
with all these things and
and and she's like okay you know you're
like you can you can complete guilty and
you can go with the sentence and
guidelines which is going to be like
she's like I mean it depends she said it
might be whatever 54 years she was but
if they run them you know concurrent or
consecutive depending on which one they
do she said it most likely it ends up
being like 30 years you know it's like
that's not good that's not good good so
we kind of go back and forth back and
forth and figure out try and figure out
where I'm what I'm looking
at now as we go through the whole thing
we end up she ends up with she ends up
saying you
know she knocks off a bunch of stuff
that they're saying I did you know um
enhancements because you'll have a base
level en a base level of let's say uh
level eight you know that should be that
should be maybe a few years but they
start adding on enhancements you know um
did he what did what he do was it
sophisticated yes okay three levels for
sophisticated means um were there more
than how many victims were there more
than 50 victims yes okay that's six more
levels okay uh did he change the
jurisdiction to evade detection yes
that's four more levels okay did he they
start adding boom boom and when you
start adding up all those
levels plus your criminal history and I
have a big criminal history because I
was already on Federal proam probation
and I committed a new crime on federal
probation so that was another
enhancement and this you know this case
so I'm like a category I like category
two or three so they come back and
they're
saying I forget it's like 20 well they
don't come back right away but she ends
up saying you're probably looking at 14
years okay that's reasonable that's
reasonable and so she's
saying so we get the when we get the PSI
back we eventually get what's called a
precentage report they're saying 26
years well they really said 32
years and I argued and we got it down to
26 years and four months that's what it
is it's 316 months that's how they do it
in
months doesn't sting that much I guess
if you say
months yeah so she says to me Millie
sits down with me and she says
listen you got a call cooperate and I
was like okay and she said because
you're you're you're guilty you're
extremely guilty she's like you can't go
to
trial and she said so you need to
cooperate I was like well what do I get
if a cooperate she said the way it works
is you
cooperate and you hope for the best and
I was like are you serious you tell them
everything you know and you hope for the
best and she's like the the part of the
problem is she said everybody in Tampa
has cooperated Rebecca has
cooperated everyone across the board has
cooperated there's nobody that hasn't
cooperated by the way when you say
cooperated you mean they're an inform
they told they AKA snitched right they
they came in they sat down with their
lawyer and they said this is what he did
he did this he did that they showed him
documents yes yes yes that's my
signature I didn't know what that was I
you know they everything was my fault
they didn't do anything it was all me so
they've all cooperated and they haven't
been charged they've been indicted
they're all named as unnamed
co-conspiracy MERS on my indictment so
I've got like 12 people even there's
like probably 20 people that are
involved but there's like 12 of them
that are so I've got all these names you
know uh KB DL c y you know it's like I
know who that is like I know who DW
that's Dave Walker I know who you know I
know who these people are and so there's
just a list of there's like 12 of them
you know plus
me uh
so and some of some of them walked in
and said I'm guilty I just want to be
plead guilty the the the girl uh Allison
mhm she walked in said I I'm I'm too I'm
tired of waiting for you to come get me
walked in with her lawyer and said I
just want to plead guilty and and they
sentenced her and she went to jail she
got like 36 months or 30
months she called the
prison the she went to the low security
it was a female prison at the time
female Camp called the camp and asked
for if she could come by for a tour
before she went and they went excuse me
she said well I'm going to be there for
about two years so I'd like to come and
is there like a tour I can take because
I like to know where I'm going me what
it's going to be like how I should
prepare and they just started laughing
they said there's no tour sweetie we'll
give you the tour when you get
here you got to love that like yeah I
mean I thought I was I didn't think I
thought I wasn't uh prepared I mean
there's no tour so uh Becky Becky got 70
months but when I got caught and when I
was sentenced they reduced it to like 30
or no 40 to 40 months they reduced
because she Co
cooperated that
term right do you want to say snitch
well there must be I mean snitch is too
harsh of a word but yeah the red I mean
you're
saying I don't know well we can get
there we'll get there all right all
right so where did the sentencing end up
so I should say first on the
cooperation yeah subject my lawyer
wanted me to cooperate and by this point
I realized like you don't have a choice
you know no that's that's not true I
could have been a gangster yeah what
does it mean to be a gangster in this
case like a standup guy I could have
said I'll just take it give me 54 years
go fuck yourself I'm not going to snitch
on nobody and I know you look at me and
you think tough guy mhm I'm not a tough
guy at all I'm not doing 50 some odd
years like I'm not doing it I don't want
to do 30 years MH uh you know I was
hoping for you know I I knew it wasn't
possible but I would have satisfied for
another slap on the hand like I got the
first time I really thought I deserved
honestly when you if when my lawyer
asked me what do you really think you're
deserving I thought I I deserve 10 years
you know I deserve 10 years
but so she said look they want to talk
to you so the FBI well first the the
Secret Service flies in MH they come
in and uh they interview me who's more
terrifying FBI Secret Service you know
the Secret Service was so
overwhelmingly
professional uh the FBI and really only
the one of the FBI agents that
interviewed me I don't know how he's an
agent I I don't know he was just
ineffective incompetent oh so it's the
competence issue the other one was
Candace oh you met her eventually of
course I did of course she's what was
her 511 wearing 3-in heels yeah she's a
giant and in impeccable shape M
attractive one of the angriest human
beings I've ever met and every FBI agent
that I've met since then that knows her
and I mention they all say what you
think of her and I'm like what why they
go I was like kind of aggressive they
yeah yeah she's a bulldog she's a I mean
all of them are like yeah yeah she's uh
she's something else like Secret Service
is a little bit more like Prof personal
very you know it's their job it's like
hey this is just my job they're polite
professional you know that's it so it's
just this is just a this is my 9o5 so
but they they they come and they fly in
and they meet with me for 3 or 4
days one of the one of the funny things
is that when I first first sat down with
them um the one guy's name was a Dan
like BR brazowski or something so he he
sits down he says look before we get
started we we need to talk about
something and I said what he said we
know you've hidden money and we you know
I was like what and he goes you you know
we we know you've got money hidden I
said I don't have any money hidden what
are you talking about my lawyers like do
we need to talk I'm like no no no no I
don't have nothing I gave you everything
I all the accounts you got everything
and he's like you're looking at an
obstruction charge at this point I was
like I I don't have anything and he says
we know you have money we know you have
money in different IDs different
identities names and I go what are you
talking about and he pulls out a bank
statement and he slaps it on the counter
and he goes you've got money in southern
Exchange Bank you've got $190,000 in
southern Exchange Bank and I look at it
and I
went um it was in the name Walter hul
and I
went did you call the bank he saids yeah
we called the bank I went okay did
anybody call you back and they go he
said what no we've left several messages
I said did you go to the bank bank
website he goes yeah I went to the
website I said what do you think and he
went what do you mean was Bank website I
said yeah but it was professional right
it was like a professional website and
he goes it's a bank website and I go
yeah but it's it was well done MH and he
goes oh God and I go yeah convincing and
I went I go it's all an
illusion I said the bank doesn't exist
it's a fake bank I made the bank made it
when I was in um not even in Tampa I
think I I got into uh Nashville when I
made it and I was like yeah it's an the
the bank statements like they're color
bank statements I'm like yeah well no
shit so you know there's no I said a
matter of fact I said who did you leave
a I haven't paid for the service in
months and he turned around and he
called it and it went you know you know
it it was disconnected and I was like
how do you not know that's a bank well
it turns out there was a southern
Exchange Bank and i' used their Bank
routing number and so I mean I always
thought that was funny that they it's
like well I remember really for a split
second there I was I was kind of like
really embarrassed that they caught me I
was like I can't believe this you're the
Secret Service anyway I talked to them I
you know there's there's really as far
as the Secret Service is concerned
there's just not much I can tell
them there's you know like it was me
Becky's already told them everything
Amanda's already told them everything
it's not hard to track that when when
they raided my house they've got boxes
and boxes so it's laid out we still it
took forever like I still went through
everything I explained how I got the
driver's licenses how I made the the
bank statements how I made the birth
certificates how I the whole social
engineering of figuring out how to what
these little loopholes are it's it's
like seven days total with these guys so
you mean like like question yeah it was
like they question me for all day and
then they take me back to the Marshall's
hold over and then the next morning I
wake up and they chain me up again and
bring me back what's that like what's
that process of questioning like are
they I mean you're somebody who is
exceptionally good at
conversation charismatic it was part of
uh the games you played uh are they good
at
conversation um I mean they're you know
the problem is they're not there to
shoot the shit you see what I'm saying
like they have a an agenda but they have
to use their words to get information
out of you aren't they trying to
manipulate you I'm not I'm not holding
anything back okay
I'm not it's not like I'm sparing Jim
you know it's trust me Jim's got to go I
mean you're looking at you're like 20
some odd years but Jim can do five bill
can do some Tom can do six I don't even
like I don't even like uh Jerry Jerry
can do 20 you know so I'm I'm I'm I'm
ready I'm ready to cut everybody's
throat but you're not guaranteed that
that you're not you're getting anything
for that right in all my time I've seen
one one time where an inmate got a a
guarantee to have his sentence reduced
and it was signed uh by the head of the
FBI was Robert Muller gave it to him to
have a conversation with them that's the
only time I've ever seen that document
okay so a lot of days with both the
Secret Service and the FBI so FBI was uh
Candice was uh irritated didn't like me
and I remember when I uh she un took the
Cuffs off I was like rubbing my wrist
she goes your wrist hurt and I go yeah
and she goes get used to it I mean she
was just an asshole yeah just all around
not that she didn't have a right to be
but everybody else was professional you
know so
uh oh cace so we uh we you know we we we
talked for three or four days with the
uh FBI and you know they asked a ton of
questions they brought a ton of they
brought documents you know so it's like
hey who signed this you know it's like
oh that's not that's not my signature
that's so and so signature or I sign
that I sign that I signed that that's so
and so where'd this check go who is this
oh that's so and so you know
you're looking over everything one of
the things they wanted to know about was
which I never talked about because it
see seems so minor is I bribed a
politician I got him elected because we
got him elected to the uh city council
so he could vote to get our our the Lots
we bought like a hundred vacant Lots in
eore city and I wanted them all they
were all single family we wanted them
own multif family and so we bribed him
and got him elected that doesn't seem
minor it's not as sexy as the rest of
the stuff that's pretty I
mean that's a whole another thing like I
I mean you know all right so what
happened is when they got all of the
bank accounts they see all these checks
going to Kevin White and so they're like
why did James red donate $500 to Kevin
White why did Brandon green donate why
did Allan Duncan donate why did and you
know so I had explained to oh yeah well
he was we wanted him to be city
councilman so we paid you know gave him
a bunch of money so he could run the ad
so he could get elected so he could then
get all of our stuff but because he
never did you know I took off on the run
before he was able to do that um and and
then he ended up getting uh not long too
too long after that he ended up about
five six years later he ended up getting
uh um indicted for bribery but not mine
on somebody else's case can I take a
small tangent here and ask how many
politicians do you think commit crimes
are a little bit or a lot
criminals I mean I think there's some
ways that are you they're they're
they're seemingly legal the
forementioned gray area well that's not
gray like I I this guy was like at one
point I couldn't find anybody to write
$500 checks anymore so I just gave him
cash like I'm just handing them $7
$8,000 $10,000 in cash
so uh but you know I think most of them
have legal ways to make ungodly amounts
of money for you know
influence you know but is it legal no
it's they're politicians they've made it
so that it's not illegal if you really
sat down and explained it to
someone you
know the average person would say that
that's that's not right that oh no no
that's legal so okay so at the end of
these few
days um what was the sentencing like
yeah I I end up uh I go to sentencing I
I get my PSI back and it's 32 years to
life
and yeah and
so we argue about it uh with the
prosecutor just before sentencing and
they get it down to they 26 years four
months and then Millie says listen don't
worry cuz I'm trying to backpedal at
this point I'm like I I might as well go
to trial if I lost at trial I couldn't
get more more than 30 that you can't
well more than 32 years cuz you can
can't get life 32 was a Max it's just a
mistake he said 32 years to life you
can't get life so it was like the most I
can get is 32 years so I was like I'll
go to trial might as well go to trial
and see if I can get them to reduce some
of these enhancements she insists that
she can get the enhancements knocked
down and if you read they actually read
the enhancements some of the
enhancements they didn't apply to
me so she goes and and you know I
believed her and and I think she she
made a valid argument we get to we go to
sentencing my mom's there she's crying
my dad's there he's looks at he's
looking at me like he's
disgusted and uh crowd there's a a whole
bunch of reporters like the whole place
is
packed and I'm I plead guilty Millie
gets up my law gets up and she argues uh
these enhancements and every single time
you know the judge is
like I
disagree you know overruled it's like
boom five more years years you know bam
six more years bam because if she had
won the enhancement she argued I would
have got 14
years he now keep in mind too prior to
this a a month or two prior to this the
pro us attorney had
called Millie and said look dat line
Date Line had already come out by the
way remember I was worried about dat
line coming out well it had come out but
they wanted to do a followup because it
came out like a month or two after I got
arrested and they were saying hey we
want to recut it with interviews with
him well Gail McKenzie wants that's the
US attorney she wants me to do
that and she says I'll consider that
substantial assistance now when you
cooperate with the government they
consider it substantial assistance
that's what they call it so I cooperate
with you it's substantial assistance she
says if he's interviewed by Dateline
we'll consider it substantial assistance
and Millie says you have to do it by the
way what's the idea behind that that
they like you serve as a warning for
others or something like that yeah
exactly it's a he you know you become a
cautionary tale like don't let this
happen to you so I go and I I'm
interviewed by dayline um I Keith Morris
or whatever his name is you know that
guy Mr cock schw you know that guy um so
he comes and he he he interviews me
Becky's interviewed I'm interviewed
Amanda's interviewed like uh Allison is
interviewed um like everybody the secret
service agent I think is interviewed
like everybody prosecutors
interviewed uh you know I it's funny at
the time I would have I was when I
watched it I was like that's not true
and that's not true and that and and the
honest it's like 99% true it's like
looking back on it yeah you know I'm I'm
like you know like my Audi TT wasn't
blue it was silver you know it it's just
stupid but anyway so I'm interviewed by
them and they recut it and they air the
video so I you said this was substantial
assistance and then the other thing is I
was interviewed by the FBI and the
Secret Service now my my lawyer calls
the prosecutor the night before
sentencing and says look he was
interviewed by Dateline and he he was
interviewed by the Secret Service and
the
FBI and if you do that you said you'd
reduce his sentence you'd consider it
stantial assistance and you would reduce
his sentence what are you going to ask
for his sentence to be tomorrow at
sentencing and she said we did consider
it substantial assistance and it's just
not
enough what do you mean nobody was
arrested yes but what about dat
line Millie I I don't know what to tell
you it just wasn't enough we considered
it we we considered it we will consider
it and they did consider it so oh man
yeah that's like the that's you have to
really you know the meaning of words is
so important I'm going to use that at
some point I will consider I'll consider
it I considered it it's not so and still
feel the same she's so she calls me I'm
I'm crushed and she's like but look you
know they're still investigating they're
going to make these arrests and so when
you get a sentence reduction at
sentencing it's called a
5k1 when you get a sentence reduction
after sentencing it's called a rule 35
so she said we'll file a rule 35 as soon
as the arrests are made okay so I go to
sentencing and Millie says you're going
to get 14 years I'm going to argue these
enhancements she argues the enhancements
she loses the enhancements not that
she's not an amazing attorney she's an
amazing attorney the judge wanted to
hammer me he hammered me you know Millie
was a great attorney she was always
polite to me and by the way to this day
we'll answer my phone call most you most
public defenders you call them now you
call them after your sentence they they
don't answer your
call great person thank you Millie I
didn't give her anything to work with
you know it's like I'm so overwhelmingly
guilty it's like there's no defense so I
end up getting senten 26
years um it's a lot of years I would
like to tell you that they they when
they gave me the time you know that I I
was stoic and I I stood there and I
I took it in you know but but the truth
is I cried like a baby like a small
child like you've never seen anyone cry
like this in your life I was
just how did I get 26 how what did I do
to get 26 years like murderers rapists
I've met guys that kidnapped guys that
got
156 so yeah hey I were you scared
I mean you know does a pope wear a funny
hat like of course I was SC
terrified yeah I mean you know but I
kept telling myself ah they're going to
reduce the sentent they'll reduce it
they'll reduce it they'll reduce it like
okay okay okay it's going to be okay
it's going to be okay um you know but it
wasn't okay I I I got I got moved to
Coleman the
Coleman complex in Coleman Florida the
federal correctional Coleman complex in
Coleman Florida mhm which is thear
largest complex in the nation uh Federal
complex in the nation there's a there's
a at that time there was a a camp which
was a female Camp there was a medium
security a low security prison for men a
medium security prison and two
penitentiaries and so I get moved to the
medium now I'm moved to the medium not
because like that's where like real
criminals go right like I'm I'm a soft
white boy like I'm no danger to anybody
like I I Hur I hurt someone's feelings
once but other than that I'm I'm I'm not
a pro I'm not going to be a problem but
if you have more than 20 years to serve
you have to go to a medium so even
though my security level said this guy
should be in a camp MH I had 20 years so
if you have you can't go to a camp till
you have less than 10 so as soon as I
given 26 years and and you know 26 years
they they knock off three but you still
have three years to get below 20 so they
go to the medium so I go to the medium
and their guy getting stabbed the very
first day people are being
stabbed I get locked into you go to my
cell meet my C they scream lock down
somebody got stabbed in the wreck yard I
remember I asked that my C which I met
20 minutes earlier I was like what's you
know he's like hey we got to get in the
cell I was like what's going on he
somebody got stabbed in the yard and I
go somebody just got killed and he goes
nah they just stabbed him up a little
bit and I
thought you're in a place where they
they stabbed him up a little bit like
you're not prepared for this this bro
you got to get out of here yeah so
anyway I go to the medium I'm there like
what was the first day and night when
remember I already had been locked up in
the county and they're they're County
jails where they call them us they're US
Marshal they're holdovers but they're
really County jails they just keep you
with the with the um Federal guys so I'm
not mixed in with like hobos and you
know people like that like I'm I'm mixed
in with the federal people so already
felt like a like a prison yeah it's it's
it's a prison
I mean it's it's jail but it's prison
and andless you've been locked up you
don't really know the difference so it's
it's a jail jails suck jails are much
worse the whole time I was locked up in
these in the jails waiting to be
sentenced guys were like I just want to
get sentenced and go go to prison bro
just and I was like why does everybody
keep saying that like prison's worse
than this like I saw shank Shaw Shank
it's horrible and they're like bro
prison listen prison I can walk the
wreck yard I could go to the movie room
watch movies I'll listen within right
after count for this 4:00 count they
count everybody at 4 so they are like
right after count I'm going to go to
commissary somebody's going to buy me an
ice cream I'm going to be eating an ice
cream walking on the wreck yard the
first day like and I'm you know it's
been months and months and months and
I've been locked up in this County jail
and I'm thinking I want to go to prison
like that sounds nice I'd love I'd like
an ice cream yeah but there was a
stabbing on the first day well you know
everybody kept telling me I was going to
go to a camp you're going to go to a
camp you're going to go to a love I see
you know and and honestly I I was very
quickly I was walking on the wyard I was
you know so I was at the medium I got
there you know it's it's a real prison
with the doors bam and they can open the
little tray thing and feed you out of
the tray and there's a a stainless steel
toilet and sink and you know they have
that in the county too but you know it's
it's exactly what you think of prison as
being but it feels like a fundamentally
different experience when it's 26 years
and the door locks and yeah so I yeah I
have a
s and but I'm also they sent me to a
prison where guys have tons of guys have
30 40 50 years you know life sentences
there's there's gangsters there there's
uh there's murderers there's serial
killers there's you know really bad guys
uh there's you know there's guys that
are you know trying to take advantage of
guys right you like sexually yeah um but
by the time I got there I'd heard all
the you know how you can get yourself in
trouble you know how you can like don't
go in somebody else's cell you don't
know the guy you're not 100% sure do not
go in his cell don't even go near his
cell don't go into places where you
people can close a door behind you or
they can trap you in an area don't
there's all these things that I've been
told not to do again for second sexual
reasons right because I'm I'm a
small guy in prison yeah you know track
away dude yeah it's a problem it's a
problem
this yeah it's bad it's all bad well
it's good in the outside world but bad
in the you know yeah my fear was there
make me shave my head to make sure that
the mop wig fits correctly but there's
certain things that I always hate to say
this but I and it does this is the
simplest way to say it is that
if you get stabbed in prison you had it
coming you did something they're not
running around just stabbing people you
did something you and the things that
get you hurt is you argue over the TV
what channel you want to watch you got
50 80 guys watching One TV don't argue
about it like it's none of just not
worth it um borrowing things that and
not returning them that's a problem
running up debts that's a big problem
you know
gambling gossiping you know those are
the problem those things get you hurt
not being polite be respectful I'm super
respectful so I was
respectful um very quickly when I got to
Coleman there are continuing education
courses one of the courses is
residential real
estate the guy that was running the
residential real estate didn't want to
do it anymore because he was doing legal
work and it just was taking too much
time so he came to me he said listen you
just got here you got a real estate
background like nobody else does can you
take over this class and I was like um
sure so I looked at his curriculum I
kind of rewrote a little bit and I
started teaching the residential real
estate class and at one point I was
teaching two classes like a semester or
a
quarter and these guys loved it like
everybody they all think they're going
to get out and flip houses so I started
you know from the fundamentals I talk
about credit how to borrow how hard
money lenders different types of Bor
like everything and you know guys are
walking it's the first time in my life
this was funny not that I think I was
really in ever in a position for this to
happen this was really odd though
probably the second or third class when
guys are leaving and I'm having to check
them off the roll multiple guys are
stopping and saying yo bro putting their
hand out and shaking my hand and going
good class was a good class bro then I
have guys coming to me telling me
hey what are you teaching these guys
what do you mean they he go my s's
telling me he's going to get out and
make millions I'm Cox's real estate
class I'm telling you I can do this I'm
going to be a millionaire and it's like
this flipping houses like this is not
yeah but the truth is if you know it is
the flipping houses was what I basically
told these guys especially the drug
dealers right you're a drug dealer and
you were raised in the projects and
you're going back to the projects like
this is this is the
one industry or you know that you will
Thrive at because you're a hustler mhm
you're you're not afraid a 45-year-old
divorced white woman is not going into
the hood knocking on doors to try and
flip houses but you will and you know
everybody in the neighborhood and you'll
knock on those doors and you'll hustle
and you'll you've been told no before
and you don't care and you're not scared
you're not this and there's tons of
money to be made in in lower income
areas and so I I and then when I go
through the whole thing and how you can
leverage uh you know leverage your
credit to borrow money to get into the
property and R do the renovations with
very little money down and I do the
whole thing
these guys like they loved it so I was
and and what that did for me was two
things one if you got to the class 40
guys show up before the class and I say
look if you don't want to go you don't
want to be here you just want it because
your your counselor's making you get a
certificate you don't want to be here
that's fine bring me two coffees and
like two creamers from commissary and
I'll fill out all your
paperwork and you'll pass you'll get a
certificate I don't have to see you
again I have full of coffee and creamer
cuz at least 10 10 or 15 didn't want to
be there the other guys seriously wanted
to be there and I don't want those guys
to be there anyway they're going to be a
problem so the other guys are serious
about it and and some of these guys sat
through the class two three four
times some of these guys got out and
sent me
money
so uh you know which is like a huge sign
of respect you know by the way uh
because they don't owe me anything but I
I did that and I taught
GED uh because you know you have to do
something for for money
and you know I met some some I met a
bunch of cool guys and I was hanging out
and I was doing well and after about 3
years they they transferred me to
the low security
prison at this point like the the FBI
starts showing up asking me questions
they asked me questions about the
politician I brib you know ask me
questions about him statute limitations
was up and they were trying to tie him
into uh the bank fraud because his name
was Kevin White and one of my guys name
was Michael Kevin White and so they were
trying to tie him in you know did you
did he know about it because if he knew
about it statue limitations is 10 years
we could no he didn't know um should
have thrown him in there but anyway
because like a couple years later he
gets indicted he ends up going to jail
anyway and it could have decreased your
sentence yeah listen listen stop stop um
listen oh my God I got all my judgment
out after the the homeless
conversation listen it's only GNA get
worse I mean I I really appreciate your
honesty and your Insight about like
about snitching honestly that I have a
sense that that there's
a um at least a desire for loyalty in
the world I wouldn't that be nice did
you ever feel in danger
and and and medium more
low it's funny I had more problems at
the probably at the low than I did the
medium but at the medium the only thing
that happened
was an article came out in the newspaper
when I was at the medium it came out and
said because they're you know they're
still investigating things so this
article comes out and I'm on the front
page of the St Petersburg times it was
about the politician big article and in
the article it says they interview
Millie my lawyer and she says well when
Mr Cox was being interviewed by the FBI
one of the first things they wanted to
know about was this
politician so she just said Mr Cox was
being interviewed by the FBI so I
immediately get taken into custody and
they put me in the in the shoe the the
hole right for my own protection and I'm
there for like 40 days and then after 45
days they're like Cox what do what what
do you want us to do you want us to ship
you I was like no put me back on the
compound I'm like half the guys here
cooperated and he goes yeah it's more
than half he said but this is this is
the guy from sis which is like their
internal security so that's when he told
you that it's actually much higher
percentage he said but he goes but 90 he
said but 100% of them are lying about it
he said you just came out in the
newspaper I go man I'm not concerned if
you are concerned you got to come
immediately to the Lieutenant's office
and tell us we'll ship you I said okay I
get out there people are giving me like
the looking at me and what's up you know
but I don't have a lot of friends anyway
and I come there to make friends and so
at one point this one guy comes to me
I'm walking in the yard probably two
days later after I get on back on the
compound I'm walking guy comes to me he
has a goatee and he's got a it comes
down here he's got a skull like a little
skull thing he had he had made whittel
out of wood or something and uh you know
definitely looked scary but so I'm
walking and he stopped he goes hey cock
I've never talked to these guys I had
been there for a year or so and never
talked to any of these guys they're all
like bikers and you know Aryan
Brotherhood and so I'm like uh yeah
what's up he said Bubba Bubba's their
leader he goes he goes Bubba told me to
tell you uh not to walk the yard he
don't want to see you out in the yard
and I went okay I said well I'm going to
walk the yard tonight um I said and if I
get the shit kicked out of me then I get
the shit kicked out of me did you talk
back to a guy with with a with a wooden
skull hanging off his I did but you know
what it was right in front of the guard
shack and so there's guards in the guard
shack you know they're 20 feet away
really you weren't scared I mean I I I
think I just got numb like I'm not
stupid but I'm all I'm walking around
I'm you know I was scared from the
moment I got there on if that makes
sense so you get to a point where you're
just numb and you're waiting for it
especially when I got out of the shoe
got out of the shoe I went straight to
my cell laid down couple minutes later
it was lock lock down they close the
doors I wake up the next morning I go to
cow I go to my job like it starts all
over again so I was I had a very packed
routine so I didn't spend there although
there's guys everywhere and I'm I'm
thinking at some point I might just be
walking around a guy might walk up and
just smash me in the head but it didn't
happen and it's not the guys aren't
getting stabbed but they've got it
coming I didn't tell on anybody here I
didn't do anything it's not that on
other yards I might not have gotten
smashed but I didn't get smashed and I'd
been there a while and I taught the real
estate class and everybody wanted to
take real estate take real estate so I
think that insulated me to a degree uh I
also had U um made a few friends there
and I I think they were probably also
kind of putting out the words like bro
cut this guy a break so I'm walking
across and I tell the guy I said look
man I said you know and I wasn't rude to
him he wasn't even rude to me really he
said don't walk to the yard anymore
Bubba I didn't want you walk in the yard
I said well listen I'm gonna go to cowo
and then I'm GNA go out there tonight
and walk the yard and if I get smashed I
get smashed I go because I got 26 years
and I cannot walk around for the next 26
years not going on the yard I said so
I'm going to be there and if that
happens and that happens and he looked
at me and he goes man I don't give a
fuck what you do that's what Bubba told
me to tell you he said I told you and he
I don't give a shit what you do and he
walked off I went out there that night
with a buddy of mine named Zach um a guy
named John Gordon uh with my cousin and
a couple of his buddies we walked the
track for about an hour Bubba and a
group of his guys stood there and looked
at us and as we walked probably closest
we got to was 30 or 40 feet that went on
for 30 minutes and then they kind of
broke up and went their separate ways
and you know there was a couple of times
where I would go to the chow
hall and I would go and I'd be sitting
at a table and Bubba would walk up and
tell the other guys at the table I want
to let you guys know you're he didn't
even call me a snitch he said you're
sitting with a a cooperating witness he
said he said that's how you want to roll
he said you ain't going to be rolling
with us if there's any trouble and then
they all kind of looked at me and they
got got a got their plate and they moved
off he didn't tell me to move and he
could have walked up and said this is a
snitch motherfucker he didn't do that
Bubba was very respectful um so as
respectful as he could be whatever you
want to say about Bubba he was a
respectful man you ever talk to him
directly never had a conversation with
him so that went on but I mean not when
I say that went on I mean like literally
like that's a couple of times he said
the same thing to a guy in line one time
guy came up to me later and said look
man I'm sorry Matt I he was standing
next to me in line Bubba said something
to him he went like 10 or 15 people back
and stood in line later on he came up to
me man I'm sorry bro but you know blah I
said bro I said look I get it we're not
friends don't worry about it and and
here's the thing at some point there I
got I ended up getting well the FBI
started showing up there at the at the
prison questioning me about my files in
at in Tampa the remember the 12 guys
that were in indicted they show up and
they start asking me about it and so
they're still kind of working it well at
the same time I end up getting moved to
the low security prison I get to low
security
prison they show up over and over again
but it's some point they come to me and
they say look we went to the US attorney
we presented everything we have we have
it we I have I have enough for an invest
I have enough for to indict all of these
guys I think was whittel down to maybe 8
instead of 12 and they said look the
entire economy is melting
down at this point these are some of
these are four five years
old we don't we we've got banks that are
melting down right now we got we got 100
200 300 million 500 half a billion
dollar banks that we're investigating we
don't have time to deal with this we're
not going to and we're not going to
indict those people so they get away the
agent I was working with her name was uh
Lesley Nelson very nice person uh she
came actually didn't have to do this
came to the uh prison to tell me this is
what happen and when she'd first come to
see me I told her listen I'm I want to
do all this
but no matter what happens I need you to
write me a letter if they don't and and
if they don't indict these people I need
you to write me a letter that I can
present to the US attorney on my behalf
that I I did everything I could and she
goes I'll do that it but that's not
going to happen we're going to get the
indictments everything I was okay so of
course A year later she shows up after
nothing happens and they drop the case
she shows up and she tells me what
happened and he's not going to do it I
was I go do you remember that you she
goes I got the letter right now gave me
the letter she was like that's it great
letter you know uh it says you know Mr
Cox has worked you know blah blah blah
he's done this this is great and and
even said you know he deserves a
reduction in my opinion blah blah blah
so but there's no there's nobody nobody
was ARR nobody was arrested so I call my
public defender I call Millie I explain
it to her and you know she starts you
know she starts crying and she's sorry
and well what are we going to do well
there's nothing you can do you're you're
time barred like you have one year to
file a
2255 uh which is to say that your lawyer
is ineffective or that the court has
made a mistake in some way MH and it had
been over a year and it it' been years
it' been like four years and she's like
yeah I mean you're just there's nothing
you can do and she's in tears and um I
kind of feel like I'm done at that point
I'm done and what I do is I start
writing a book right I write a memoir my
Memoir and and this is not a Shameless
plug for my Memoir by the way which is
amazing just saying but
uh so what happens is I actually I
actually write it you know I write it
and then I have to rewrite it right
could I don't really know what I'm doing
you know and I'd been reading True Crime
and that sort of thing and I've always
liked True Crime I get a literary agent
comes to see me tells me I have to
rewrite some stuff we rewrite it as I'm
finishing up my Memoir there's a guy
that comes on the compound and his name
is epim deoli epim
deoli and his business partner uh guy
named David pacau were selling Munitions
AK-47
really tons of Munitions but they got in
trouble with the this and they were
selling them to the US government for
the Afghan Security Forces mhm and there
had been an article in Rolling Stone
magazine about him and I'd read it and
somebody points him out and says hey
that's that guy that's and I went up to
him I said hey bro you just got here
he's like yeah I said look if you want
to write a memoir or anything I'm
finishing my Memoir I can always help
you I can help you write an outline you
can get a professional writer whatever
if you need help he's like yeah all
right efim Dey was played by Jo Hill in
the movie uh wogs mhm so a few months
later he comes to me and says you know
hey they sold the movie rights I was
like oh wow that's great and I'm like
you and you don't want to write a memoir
and he's like yeah man it was sold to
the guys from The Hangover movie and I
was like so the guys from The Hangover
movie are going to make a movie about
you I said you understand they're going
to call it like Dude where's my hand
grenade and you're going to be thei from
fast time at richmont high like you're
going to be a joke all because you don't
want to write a
memoir and get your your version out
there and he was like holy shit so I end
up writing an outline for him we worked
together and then he asked can I read
your book I was like sure and I give it
to him and he reads it and he comes back
and he says bro he this is the best
thing I've ever read in my life and to
be honest I later found out he'd read
about three books in his entire life but
still it was very it was very nice you
the other two so uh he asked me if I'll
write his book I write his book we work
out a
deal and
uh we do that and I'm I'm I'm saying all
this because I basically settle in I'm
done I'm going to do 26 years by the way
just in a small tangent how did you how
did you know you'd be good at writing
I'd kind of written a manuscript prior
to even taking off on the run I used to
listen to uh John Grisham books you know
I would listen to him in the car like I
like John Grisham books and had actually
written a manuscript about a a mortgage
broker U you know he writes about
lawyers it's like lawyer being a lawyer
is not exciting if you can make that
sound exciting I can make being a
mortgage broker uh and I wrote a I wrote
a book you know put it in my
desk and uh you know the FBI found it
and they' you know said oh it's a
blueprint to the fraud that he's going
to commit it wasn't stop it's as much
that character was as much me as John
grisham's characters are him but it's
still kind of interesting that
John Grisham didn't right I mean you
know if John Grisham did something
similar to what one of the you know I
saw a quote somewhere
that uh the criminal is a is the true
artist and the detective is merely a
Critic something like
that does that resonate with you or I'll
have to look that up okay so you already
knew you could write well I knew I liked
it but yeah I think I got better and
better at it I mean you know as you're
writing and they had creative writing
classes you know in prison at the low uh
you know the low was a much
different breed of animal you know like
it you know it was you could very easily
get hurt you could get hurt either place
but there were guys that have life
sentences that been working out for 20
years and were just super angry you know
at the medium and and if you got hurt at
the medium it was probably really go bad
uh as opposed to you get hurt at the low
it's more like a a a fist fight in high
school so with knives so anyway I so I'm
there I'm writing I'm doing that
and it there was a guy on the compound
that came on the compound about that
same time his name was Frank Amadeo
Frank Amadeo is a a Rapid Cycling
bipolar with features of schizophrenia
Rapid Cycling bipol with features of
schizophrenia Rapid Cycling it's just
constant right and so there are moments
in in His Manic state where he his
reoccurring psychosis I guess is uh that
he believes and since he was in his
early teens has believed that he is
pre-ordained by God to be emperor of the
world he's a lawyer despar stole close
to $200 million from the federal
government they gave him 22 years and
they sent him to
Coleman but it doesn't this is the part
I love the delusions don't affect his
legal work MH it doesn't say a ton for
legal Community but how do you know he's
delusional I'm just asking questions
yeah he's he's trust me I I I mean it's
it's not me it's like the transcripts
the lawyers the doctors the you know
yeah there's a ton of a ton and then if
you saw him in action you'd be like oh
wow yeah you know he'd be he would be
completely normal he would be having a
completely normal conversation
and somebody would say something and he
was he'd go that makes me so angry I I I
I can't I'm not going to let them do
that when my Legions March on
Washington we are going to burn the
Constitution and the president will
kneel at my
feet and he
goes I'm going to need your transcripts
I'm going to need a 2255 for form we're
going to file up you and it would just
like and everybody would sit there and
be like okay Frank I'll get this and
I'll get it was insane it was the most
insane he was basically running a
medium-sized Law Firm from inside of the
prison he was training people he taught
the he taught the um the legal research
class and was training people on how to
do legal research in prison how to put
together motions how to fight uh fight
their cases how to do the research how
to type them up everything he's teaching
he's teaching a law it's like a law
school right like he's teaching these
guys he he listen they made such a
mistake locking this guy up so he's a
great lawyer listen it's going to get
worse it's going to get worse because
here's what happens is at this point I
don't talk to him for probably a year or
so because everybody's saying he's crazy
you know and he's and for like a year he
gets there he's drooling out of the side
of his mouth they got him on a ton of
medication it takes him about a year to
get them to take him off the medication
so he he gets them to take him off off
the medication and then he starts kind
of stabilizing his mood by drinking
Pepsi uh I know BR it's CRA I know it's
crazy I know how I see I see you looking
at me like this guy's delusion I know it
works whatever works so at some point
one of my buddies comes to me and says
look you got to go talk to Frank well
here's the other thing over the course
of a year or two that he's starts doing
legal work for guys he starts just
taking on guys cases I'll do the motion
I'll do your legal work I'll do this
keeps them busy but suddenly you start
hearing people get
released you know you know Jimmy just
got 10 years knocked off his sentence
he's going to halfway house next month
you know Tom got an immediate release
Frank's walking people up to R&D shaking
their hands guys are walking up to him
in tears crying and and so you know
crazy or
not what what choice do I have I I
called three different lawyers on the
street and said this is is what happened
what can I do what can I do they they
had me they told me to do this and this
and this and I worked with them and then
they decided not to proceed and what can
I do and they said you're hit bro
there's nothing you can do you cannot in
the middle in the in the 11th circuit
you cannot force them to file a
reduction on your behalf you cannot do
it it's impossible you're hit you're
done it's over I love to take your your
money Mr Cox but it's not going to
happen I I can't I'm I'm just going to
take your money you're going to lose
three different lawyers I talked to I or
TI's lawyer told me bro it's not gonna
happen it's over
so my buddy says go talk to Frank I said
him well why why wouldn't I I got
nothing else to lose so I go talk to
Frank he actually has a little manic
moment that little thing that I just
showed you that's exactly what he said
the first time I talked to him based on
your case yes I won't let this happen
he's like I'm going to need your
transcripts I'm going to need to get
this I need to see your indictment I'm
going to need your preator report I'm
going to need he like okay and I turned
to my buddy he's like bro I know I know
what you're thinking it's fine it's
fucking crazy and he's like he's like I
understand let just what what choice do
you have I was like fuck so Frank files
a 2255 motion on my behalf stating that
I'm not time barred that Millie
was we fil it against Millie stating
that she was ineffective mhm right that
she didn't understand the law
she had me plead to something cuz she
thought I could get a reduction simply
for doing dat line oh by the way when I
was in the medium the government came to
me and asked me to be interviewed by
American Greed I do that I'm interviewed
you know they they they get me on the
phone they talk to me everything my the
prosecutor wants me to do it she's
reined everybody's reined it airs Millie
goes to them to the government says look
reduce the sence they go no Millie it's
not enough then they come to me and they
ask me to write an an ethics fraud
course I write an ethics and fraud
course the guy I write the course with
he they flies up to um Atlanta he talks
with I think he drove up but he goes up
to Atlanta he talks with the US attorney
talks to Millie she insists if he does
this I will reduce his sentence I will
definitely consider this definitely
consider yeah definitely consider and
then we do it it's being used all over
the
nation not enough consider that's where
at this point I go to Frank I tell Frank
what's happening Frank says yeah this is
he was every time they asked you to do
something it reset the time bar you have
a year from that time to file 2255 now
he insists that that was a viable
argument nobody else does but he said
I'm not going to let them do this I'm
going to take care of this I'm gonna get
your sentence reduced
okay uh
Emperor okay Emperor
so he is a character uh anyway he so he
files a 2250
5 the government comes back they say
he's time barred Frank comes back he he
you know they answer his motion he files
a retort uh they file you know it just
goes back and this goes for six months
to a year and at some point I go to mail
call and you know they call my name and
they they hand me this thing and I open
it up and it says the government's filed
a motion for a stay so that they
can they want the court to appoint me a
lawyer and to discuss filing a rule 35
reducing my sentence and I you know I
like I read it but I couldn't even
understand like I don't understand so I
mean I rushed to go find Frank I show it
to Frank and he says he says yeah
they're staying it they're going to send
you a lawyer and you're going to
negotiate for how much they're going to
reduce your sentence he said it's
perfect so they fly this woman down her
name is Esther panic
she flies down we comes to the
visitation room they bring me there the
lawyer's room whatever they call it the
and so we're sitting there and I
remember we're talking and she says uh
listen your your motion your 2255 is
written well but honestly you don't have
much of a prayer and um they're offering
you a one level
reduction which is 30 months and I
went oh that's that's not enough and she
said well I don't know what to tell you
um she said they're willing to bring you
back and I was like well you know I mean
I don't know I got to talk to Frank
Frank said I deserve this many levels
and know we're going back forth she she
go who's Frank and I go Frank's the guy
that's doing all my legal work she goes
he didn't write all this and I was like
no she goes who wrote and I I explain it
to her and she's like he's an inmate and
I was like yeah and and she goes why is
he here and I tell her well cuz he's he
stole a bunch of money from the federal
government cuz he's trying to take over
the world so I tell her that whole thing
and she's like you you're letting
a a a mentally
incompetent you know person do your
legal work I was like yeah because all
the competent attorneys wouldn't do it
they said I didn't have a prayer your
people said I didn't have a prayer and I
said Frank said he was going to he could
get this done and she's like well I
mean you know you don't like I don't
even know why they're offering you one
level I was like well Frank said you
know and I'm like Frank this Frank that
and so she I end up saying she's like
you're taking it advice from a a legally
an incompetent person I said
yeah and she said you know you really
don't have a prayer I said then why are
you here I said if they could crush me
so easily why are you
here I said they're giving me one level
let me talk to Frank I'll let you know
what we're going to do so I leave I call
her a couple days later I tell her Frank
and I talk to Frank Frank said go back
go back and argue for more he said I
think the judge is going to give you
more he's going to give you at least you
know between whatever he said like six
or seven s levers or something so I get
I get moved all the way back to
Atlanta the FBI agent comes to talk on
my behalf the guy that like multiple
people show up to talk on my behalf they
say you know Millie who I filed the 2255
against so I'm basically saying you're
you're ineffective you're incompetent
you know but she knows the game she's
like I get it she she gets on the stand
and testifies for me so so the judge
goes H you know listen I think we were
asking for like nine levels or something
outrageous prosecutor starts arguing for
one
level and he said listen one level is
not nearly enough for what Mr Cox has
done he said Mr Cox I know you're
arguing for nine uh nine levels off your
sen he goes that was never going to
happen was like feel like I got slapped
and he said so I'm I'm going to go with
six levels no no I'm sorry he said three
levels I'm going to go with three levels
he which is uh which is seven years
which she said for somebody who has no
arrest associated with his case he said
I think it's pretty good and that's what
that's his judgment and blah blah blah
blah blah and he Hammer put puts the
gavel down and walks off that's it it's
over I got seven years I was hoping for
more so I get moved back to Coleman I
get moved back to Coleman and I go to up
to Frank and I said Frank I got I got
seven years off and he's like I know I
know I said I I don't mean to sound
unappreciative I said I
just said I was hoping for more he goes
I was too he said it looks like we're
going to have to eat this elephant one
spoonful at a time and he goes something
will come out something's going to
happen he said keep your ears open
something will happen and I said okay
and you know I Honestly by that point
I'd done you know I'd done eight years
and I remember like if I got a year off
for the drug program program and good
time and this and I had about eight or
eight years left to go or something nine
years left and I was like you know I can
do that all right you know I'd been
writing
um by that point I'd i' actually written
a
story like I got a book deal for
deoli you know um and I ended
up uh writing a synopsis of a guy's
story and I got him in Rolling Stone
magazine and I got a book deal for that
like I got an advance it's like 3,500
bucks for being in prison a prisoner to
get $3,500 Advance like I'm a
millionaire there a lot of money so and
then we optioned the film rights
basically the synopsis that I wrote for
this reporter journalist for Rolling
Stone he goes to Rolling Stone with my
with what I wrote and gives it to them
and they okay it they say yeah this is
great we want you to write an article
based on this okay okay he writes the
article he tells
me that the article will be from him his
name g Lawson Douglas Dodd which is the
name of the kid I wrote the Memoir about
and Matthew
Cox couple of weeks before it's going
the article is going to be published he
tells me rolling stone doesn't want my
name on the article because I'm in
federal prison and it doesn't look good
but don't worry he going to put my name
in the article and that's just as good
um and I argue it's not just as good
it's not I'm like I would be I would be
a writer for Rolling Stone magazine like
you understand I'm trying to I'm trying
to come up with something here that I
can rebuild my life as a true crime
writer that's no
good what and that wasn't so bad that
wasn't the worst of the worst of it was
90% of the article that he published was
taken directly from what I sent him like
I mean sick to my stomach bro just sick
over it so but they option they option
the life rights for that and I got a
piece of that so there's like $7,000 I
get a check for that so I'm I'm thrilled
I can keep writing because you have to
understand writing on the computer there
they charge you so I start write oh they
charge you for phone calls writing
comment every single thing cost money so
I start writing all these guys stories I
start writing
books I just come back from went back to
Atlanta got re got s seven years knocked
off my sentence come
back and I'm walking around the
compound now there was a guy that was
there named Ron Wilson Ron Wilson
ran in if you look in the newspaper it
says it's like a a hundred million Ponzi
scheme but really was $57 million so he
had lost 57 million so it says 100 you
know they you know they always EX
exaggerate cuz 57 is not enough Ron
ended up getting 19 and a half years Ron
was an old con man
mhm early 60s 62 61 I don't know and uh
Ron I and I liked
Ron
um so we're walking around the compound
and he's like so what are you going to
do I me like eight or nine more years to
go and I was like H you know I'm going
to keep writing and when I get out of
here maybe I'll have a huge body of work
and maybe I'll be able to sell it or
maybe I'll be able to option some more
stuff and if I could get together with
rolling stone or get with some of these
magazines I could start writing for them
and I could option those maybe I could
walk out of here with something so right
right right so Ron was who only been
locked up like a year or so he was
cooperating with the Secret Service in
his case against some of his
codefendants so he's he's already been
debriefed and he's cooperating he's
actually thinking he might get brought
back to have to testify a
trial we're talking and we're walking
and he keeps saying you know even if I
even if they they charge those guys and
even if this happens they're not going
to reduce my sentence they're not going
to cut my
sentence you know first of all well
probably because you stole a bunch of
money from Pension funds and churches
that didn't help your case but I don't
say that uh so I I say oh they have to
Bro they'll have to they they you know
if you cooperate they're going to have
to and if they don't we'll have Frank
follow 2250 five and he's like uh ah
that crazy mother um so he says uh okay
he's like yeah yeah you don't understand
you don't understand so this goes on for
months and I and I'm like what is the
problem and he says you know they think
I hid Ponzi scheme
money you know and he'd actually dug up
like five or six million dollars in
Ponzi scheme proceeds that he dug he he
he buried in these oh literally
literally buried in aluminum Amun
munition canisters mhm super interesting
guy so he actually went and dug them up
and gave them to him and I'm like well
you gave them all the money it's you
didn't hide anything relax it's not a
big deal they're not going to find
anything so don't worry about it and so
he mentions it a couple weeks later
couple weeks later and then one day I go
bro why do you keep bringing this
up like what are you concerned about
they it's not going to happen and he
said can I trust you and I went probably
not and he
goes I did hide some money I was like
okay I said you you bury in a can
somewhere and he's like no he I I um
gave my wife like 150,000 in cash I said
okay well she's not going to say
anything she's using no you don't
understand since then she found out I
was having an
affair and we're going to get a divorce
and she hates me and I think she'll turn
that money in just to make make sure
that I don't get a
reduction cuz if you lie to the FBI
they're not going to doesn't matter what
you've done for them they won't give you
anything and so he's BL I mean I'm sorry
Secret Service or anybody he is clearly
lied to the secret service at this point
if she goes and says this is what he
gave me MH so he's like I was like oh
wow and he's like and I gave my my
brother's holding maybe 30,000 for
me
and at that moment I was like wow like
this poor guy no that's not what I
thought at all what I thought was is
that enough to get me a sentence
reduction you said him a
bitch and I went and I sat there and you
know what I thought I thought I I I I
thought no I thought that's not enough
that's not enough it's nothing that's
not even
$200,000 like and they didn't want to
give me a reduction my prosecutor was
pissed that I got seven years off she
wanted me to get 30 months she's not
going to give me anything it's up to her
she's not going to do it so I go I lay
down I go to bed like a month later I'm
on the phone with my lawyer cuz I had
written remember I wrote a man my I had
a manuscript for my book and I wanted to
put some of the stuff that was said at
my in my sentencing in the
book so I was trying to get my lawyer to
mail me my transcripts and she hadn't
done it so I called her and I said
listen you said you were going to she's
like oh God man I'm so sorry I'm so busy
I'll do it I'll do it and then she went
this is Esther she go so what else is
going on in there and I this she never
wanted to talk to me like she didn't you
know when they were paying her she
didn't want to talk to me and and I was
like what do you mean nothing I just
need my transcription she was like
nothing's happening there's nothing you
want to talk about I was
like and I went you know
what you know what there's something
weird happened there listen to this and
I told her about Ron Wilson and she goes
hold on and she looks up on the computer
she goes oh wow this is a bad guy this
is a bad
guy and he told you then you know where
it is absolutely she and I can tell you
exactly and she goes okay okay okay she
goes uh let me look into this I go okay
so a week later a a CO comes to me and
goes hey Cox and I go what's up he goes
listen at the next move because you know
they have controlled moves all the doors
are locked and they open them up for 10
minutes so you can run to the chow hall
or you can run to the you can't run
though there no running on the compound
but you can walk fast yes to the wck
yard
uh or the library whatever he says at
the next move go to
sis you know so I go to Sis on the next
move but I was used to going there by
the way because I I was constantly
ordering Freedom of Information acts and
they would so I'd order your your an
inmate and I'd order I'm writing a story
for you and I'd order it and they'd send
it to me and then they would catch it
and they'd be like why are you getting
Lex's information so they'd call me down
there I go no I ordered it for him and
I'm writing a story and I'd already been
in Rolling Stone everything they're like
what's the story and I tell them the
story they that's a pretty good story
here and so I go down there but this is
different this the guy answers the door
and his guy they call him Bulldog he was
a real asshole uh he was a lieutenant of
sis and he's like uh come in get in here
Cox sit down and he dials the phone he
goes here you got to talk to this guy
and I'm like what I pick up the phone
I'm like hello and the guy goes hey this
is Agent Griffin with the Secret Service
I understand you know where Ron Wilson
is has uh hidden Ponzi scheme money I
who whoa whoa whoa I want something
writing I want you know so I start doing
that and they go okay I get his his
email address and we start emailing each
other back and forth and he ends up S
getting a letter from the US attorney in
South Carolina that says they will
consider it substantial assistance if
they if they make arrests or recover a
substantial amount of money MH that's
the best I'm going to get is consider so
I start talking to thisy guy and he
starts asking me questions about Ron
Wilson like hey ask him this ask him
this so I'm like bro I got to kind of
work that into a conversation that's an
odd thing to ask this goes on for six
months so I'm asking questions and I'm
typing up little reports and I'm I'm a
I'm a I'm a prison snitch now so I'm not
just like cooperating I'm now I'm a
prison snitch so I've I've moved down
I've moved down actually from being just
a cooperating witness or because you're
in prison is that what makes you a
prison you can't even say um you could
say prison rat you could say prison rat
I think prison snitch I think that's
probably the closer to the term that
most guys would use what's the
difference between a snitch and a rat in
prison I'm not sure I it rolls off the
tongue better prison rat doesn't sound
as good as prison snitch I don't know I
don't spend a lot of time thinking about
this so what happens is um I'm asking
Wilson questions periodically and it
some point they contact me and they say
listen Wilson's about to get some bad
news and I go
okay um and they go he's you know like I
would want to tell you what it is let us
know what happens it's like two days go
by and one day Wilson comes up to me one
day and says cock cock and I'm like oh
shit I'm like hey what's up you know and
he's like oh my you're not going to
believe this I got indicted I was like
what what what
happened no yeah my wife they questioned
my wife and my brother and my brother my
wife walked in first she said I don't
have nothing I don't know what you're
talking about the next day the brother
walks in and gives them
$150,000 in cash and so the next day the
wife comes back and gives them $250,000
in cash and a bunch of uh silver like
gold bullion and silver you know because
this he was a his his Ponzi scheme was
based off of
Silver you know he was going to invest
in silver for you so half a million
dollars they turn over half aill I'm
like half a million dollars I thought
she was like a 100,000 or something and
he was he was like I know I didn't know
I could trust you I'm like
Ron what are you doing I thought we were
so he um so I'll tell you something just
for the icing on the cake by the way the
icing on the cake let me explain one
more thing y there's so if you're going
to if somebody cooperates with the
federal government let's say I get
arrested and they go you want to help
yourself and you go yeah okay um look uh
Jimmy is a he lives next to me and he's
running a meth house you know a meth lab
whatever and they go and they raid Jimmy
and he gets arrested you're going to get
something off for that not a lot but
you're going to get
something
now and they could just say we were
going to bust him anyway way we were
already on to him right now the next
level would be you wear a
wire so I wore a wire and I I was in
danger now keep in mind I'm asking this
guy questions inside federal prison I'm
in danger so whatever that's like the
next level you're active you're taking
active participate participation in the
um investigation and the third level
would be you actually get on the
stand and you cooperate you you testify
that there's no better cooperation than
that
so when Wilson says to
me they're going to move me back to
South Carolina they've indicted me they
charged me what do you think I should do
and I go I think you should go to
trial because I know they'll have to
call me as a witness yeah just to let
you know because I don't I don't want
you to I don't want to walk out of here
and have you feeling feeling like hey
there's some there's some good to this
guy no so I'm ready I'm I'm ready to cut
Wilson like a fish so yeah but you are
putting yourself in danger if you get
understand right I'm already in danger
if if people there heard what I was
doing I probably would have been in
doesn't that increase the chance of them
hearing or no if you it does but it also
increases my ability to get more off my
sentence sure so what happens is couple
days later he's on What's called the
pack out right they're GNA move him
maybe a week later so they come and get
him they move him he gets back there to
South Carolina and he pleads guilty he
he they sentence him he gets six months
added on so he's now from 19 and a half
to 20
years uh and and by the way when Co hit
he was released so he only ended up
doing like six years on a 20-year
sentence because he was older he's by
that point he's 66 67 years old you know
he's an old any anybody older than 55
was endangered especially in the prison
so they had a a CO thing where they were
releasing these guys and sending them
home on ankle monitors like he's an old
man he's not he he's not going to hurt
he's not he's not a
danger so they sent him home so he ended
up doing so he didn't even serve the six
months he even served the original
sentence whatever not that I care so I'm
just saying makes you feel like poor Ron
it's okay so his wife got like a hundred
year 100 she got like a hundred hours of
community service or something or 60
hours and I think his brother got 6
months papers they they got charged with
um obstruction of justice you know and
they didn't neither one of them you know
it's like six
months probation and community service
nothing so when we I turn around I'm
waiting for my reduction waiting waiting
after about 90 days after this guy gets
sentenced maybe 6 months I send a letter
hey what's going on to the prosecuting
to my prosecutor their the prosecutor
both districts no response then I go to
Frank I explain to Frank and Frank has
known what's going on the whole time and
Frank goes uh okay I'm going to file a
2255 so we file a
2255 government comes back and they
first thing they say is your honor we
don't know about any cooperation we've
never heard about any cooperation so of
course then we submit the letter that we
have the judge comes back and the judge
ends up saying it's a little complicated
but he ends up saying look I don't have
jurisdiction to hear this
because you're you may be time
barred but I'm going to let the the
appeals court hear it now typically you
have to you have to get what's called
like a right of cert a certification to
appeal you have to make sure that you
actually have a case he says I'm waving
the
CT and I'm waving the $500 fee to file
with them
he said and I'm he's he basically
expedites it for me which is a subtle
way of telling the prosecutor I think
he's got something and I'm sending it up
there and he and the way he writes his
motion it's basically saying I don't
have the jurisdiction to hear to do
anything but they do they need to do it
and I'm Paving the way you don't have to
pay any money and you don't need that
sir so the prosecution immediately comes
back they file a a a on level
reduction and we immediately Frank files
something saying hey stop we don't want
the reduction we don't want the one
level we want to come back to court
please don't don't rule on it so the
judge says okay I'm freezing everything
I'm I'm putting a stay on everything I'm
going to give this guy a
lawyer to try and figure out what you're
going to do they fly down a lawyer
Leanne well
so she comes and and she comes and sees
me and uh she says listen I I I see that
you want to go back and fight this and
this but honestly I don't think you're
going to get anything more than one
level uh I talked to the prosecution
they said they'll give you well she said
I can work on trying to get you two
levels but you don't have much of a
prayer you're going to get crushed and I
said well then then why are you here if
they can crush me so easy why don't they
do it why would they pay you like they
pay them like 12 Grand or something just
to fly down and all your expenses to to
negotiate for me why not crush
me and she's like I I don't know I said
well Frank said four levels and she's
like who's Frank I go Frank's the guy
that wrote All This and she's like oh is
is he an attorney and I go is he in here
I'm like yeah he's in here she's like
why is he in here and I tell her he was
taking over the world yeah and she
says that's the strangest thing I've
ever heard in my entire life and I said
I understand but Frank said and she's
like you're listening to an incompetent
you know I'm like
absolutely and she and Frank said four
level we want four levels she he said
for me to tell you we want four levels
she Sayes okay she leaves she goes to
the US attorney we argue two levels they
come back say two levels no we go back
and forth we start filing motion saying
we want to go back we want a hearing we
want to bring back all the FBI agents
the Secret Service agents so and she's
like what do you want to turn this into
a circus exactly what do I want to do I
going to turn it into the biggest circus
cuz I've already got one level MH they
come back one day she says
listen three levels is the best you're
going to
get she said so uh I guess you'll be
moved back here we'll go to the hearing
I said no no no I'll take three levels
and she go what are you talking she said
you said four levels you said Frank
wouldn't take let you take anything less
than four I said no Frank said to tell
you four I was happy with three I wanted
you to argue for four I'm good with
three I'm out of here in like a year
yeah so and I don't want to be moved
back I don't have to get on that bust
you know what it's like to be moved it's
horrible so I said I just want the three
levels so then we argue about the
wording for about two three months and
then they file it and then I get five
years knocked off my sentence because
three levels at this at the level I was
at now isn't seven years every level you
get a little less time so I get five
years off so now I've got 12 years
knocked off my sentence at this point
I maybe have a year and a half to go mhm
and you know that's
doable so I was super super
happy um and I'm gonna I'm going to tell
you
something uh and I'm sorry bro um but
every time I think about it and I I just
feel like I have to say
it
like I'm Frank I'm insane
but I can like I didn't have a fucking
prayer without that guy and as crazy as
he is and much of a pain in the ass as
he
was um like I could never repay him bro
like like I'm not I shouldn't be here
I'm supposed to be in prison right now
my outdate was 30 was
2030 without that guy where no he got
himself out he didn't do all that time
he got himself out I don't even know how
he did it they even threw him back in
prison again for six months and he got
himself out again uh he's insane he's
incredible he's insane but he's
incredible is he really that insane he's
in
Orlando is he I mean he seems like he
seems like a good lawyer and a good man
he he's he's he's great he's great I
mean there's no doubt in my mind I would
be in prison right now if it wasn't for
him and he's done this for others walk
people right out 10 years off 5 years
off 9 years off 10 years I mean it's I
didn't pay and I didn't pay for one
thing I didn't pay for my stamps he paid
for
everything sounds like the other lawyers
don't really believe it's possible and
he does it's interesting well I think
he's he was willing to he's willing to
Badger them into doing you know what
they should have done to begin with I
actually wrote a book about it which he
loved about him about him and his story
his it's so overthe toop what happened
with him um I mean l it tried to take
over the Congo I mean there's a a
documentary about it there's it's called
nine days in the Congo it's an insane
story I'm I'm that's one of those
stories it's just like how is this not a
movie it's not a movie yet no I don't
I've pitched it several times and uh
it'd be it would be great but so I wrote
a son is and I turned that into a book
what's the name of the book oh it's
Insanity it's Insanity yeah but about it
like a year and a half later like I
ended up getting out of prison and I
went to the halfway house what' that
feel like Freedom it was
uh oh this is bad bro this is bad I
I remember when I was leaving the prison
so you know I met some great guys in
prison which is a weird thing to say but
I've met met better I met better people
in prison than I'd ever met outside
prison at that
low
um I mean because it was the first time
I actually had friends you know like I I
I really had someone that wanted to hang
out with me just like I didn't I didn't
have anything to offer them I can't make
you any money I can't do anything for
you we just hanging out because we like
to laugh or we have things in common or
we're fascinated by each other where we
just have good time and fun so when I
was leaving I remember my mom showed up
and my brother showed up and they picked
me up and we were driving
off and I remember looking back at the
prison and my brother said pa I'm glad
I'll bet you're glad to see that you
know uh to leave that behind you and and
I started crying and like nobody talked
I was so uncomfortable uh and was I
started crying and and it was wasn't
because I was like oh it's over it was
because it was like Survivor guilt you
know like I was leaving all of my
friends and I felt so bad that I was
leaving
them uh but I I went to the I went to
the halfway house and uh I
had I had
four I had so when I was getting out I
remember joking that I had exhausted my
TR links account my my my inmate account
I had exhausted it I had nothing I had
like 18 cents I couldn't even figure out
how to spend it and they give you a
debit card when you
leave and I said like and they charge
you every time you you s you use the
card like I don't even have enough to
spend the 18 cents you know because the
charge is like $3 so I was like I was
like yeah yeah I was like I wonder if
they'll still give me my debit card and
I'm laughing everybody's like what are
you going to eat what do you this what
that and
uh and my one buddy looked at me he was
like you can't go to the halfway house
with nothing bro and I was like no it's
cool I said no it's cool you know I said
no it's cool I said I want to start at
the bottom I've got that coming I got
working at McDonald's coming so I'm
gonna work at McDonald's I don't give a
fuck and he was
like well I think he I I think you're
going to need to buy clothes I think I
said oh it's I said it's it's the um
it's it's at the Goodwill they'll give
you a bunch of they give you a bunch of
crap if you don't have anything if
you're Indigent and I said I'm Indigent
and a couple days
before I'm leaving $400 ends up on my
account and I was like what the fuck and
it was from a buddy of mine and I go to
him my buddy uh Tommy and I was like Tom
me I go did you put $400 on my account
and he said I can't let you go for with
nothing bro
so I get to the halfway house and I go
to Walmart and I buy $300 worth of
clothes at Walmart I've never been in a
Walmart I go to Super Walmart you're
huge and I go there and I buy a bunch of
clothes and I buy about 300 bucks worth
the clothes and I still have some of the
blue jeans to this day I still wear some
of the blue
jeans
and I stayed in the halfway house and I
I called the Buddy of M mine named Tron
uh Trion calleda and he owns a gym and
you know I grew up with him his whole
family like they own a bunch of gyms and
I I called him and I said hey man I'm in
the halfway house and he was like hey
what's going on he said can I do
anything for you and I was like I mean I
need a job I didn't think he was going
to give me a job he was bro you're hired
I'll give you a job he said I can
minimum wage I said that that's fine if
I can stay out of here I you can work
like 880 hours a week I was like if I
can just stay out of here 80 hours and
you pay me minimum wage he go oh hell
yeah perfect so I'm at the gym and uh I
got free reign so I'm playing on my
computer goofing off all day and my
buddy Pete who's still locked up he's
texting me and calling me and he's like
not texting me he's emailing me through
the cor link system and and he's calls
me periodically he's like have you
started a a website because one of the
things I was going to do when I got out
was I was going to start a website with
all these stories that i' written and I
was like no Pete I I don't I I can't
like I don't I have a computer he's like
well how much is a computer I was like I
don't know they're like 300 bucks I was
like I don't I I said I could probably
get a used Apple like MacBook like a
5-year-old MacBook or something I don't
know for like three $350 whatever and I
said but he's like okay so that's all
you need 300 bucks no no no no no I said
it's not 300 bucks bro it's 300 bucks
plus it's getting a a WordPress website
which I said costs money plus it's
hiring somebody to help me figure it out
because I don't I I'm I'm
napped I don't know how anything works
so he okay and I said plus I need this
plus I need this I I got a bunch of
stuff I need $600 for this I need 300
for this I need $500 for this I need
$1,000 for for this and he goes okay he
said I'm gonna I'll get you okay I got
it so he reads off a list he goes I got
you but Pete doesn't have any money and
I go how are you going to give me any
money he goes he
goes every day I walk across the
compound some people stop me and say
how's Cox doing and I say oh he's okay
and they say does he need
anything and I say no no he's good he
said I'm gonna start telling these
fuckers yeah yeah he needs something you
want to do something for him here's what
he
needs I ended up getting two laptops
sent to
me I got the computer
program um Final Cut Pro I had uh I had
guys in
prison cutting me checks so that I could
build a website and put all these
stories on the website so I start
putting the website I don't know what
I'm doing man I I put them on the
website slowly it takes forever um I'm
putting pictures up I'm I'm trying to
figure out how you know Photoshop Works
how all this stuff right the whole time
I was I wanted to start cuz everybody
the last when I was just getting out of
prison everybody kept telling me like
bro you you got to start a podcast you
got to start a true crime podcast and I
don't know what a podcast is the term
podcast came into existence in 2009 when
I'd been locked up three years I'd never
been on YouTube yeah so by the time I
get
out the last year or two guys are coming
up to me giving me magazines like this
is what a pod you need to read look True
Crime is huge and you have to think guys
are asking me every couple of days Cox
you got any stories and I'm like hey
yeah uh did you read cash and Coke and
they're like uh is that the one where
the guys are robbing the drug dealer
yeah oh no I read that one uh did you
read this one no no no I haven't read
that that's the one with the guy and I'm
like yeah yeah yeah yeah so I I so I'm
giving these little stories and then
theyd come back and give them to me you
know it's you don't have you don't have
anything in there right so this is guys
that would never read in their life are
reading MH and I'm writing about the guy
in in B2 the guy in
c1h
so I put up the whole thing and and
there well anyway they're all telling me
do a true crime podcast True Crime
podcast I don't really know what that is
but by now I'm starting to listen to
them on YouTube you know uh Cal and uh
uh Cold Case Files you know that kind of
stuff and I think that's what I want to
do well my buddy Trion says there's a
guy named Danny
Jones that runs a podcast called
concrete and it's in St Petersburg and
he lives a couple miles from me I see
him all the time and I went okay and he
said you should you should email him
he's got a guy on there all the time
that does real estate and I go I just
got out of prison for for bank fraud
related to real estate he doesn't want
to interview me he goes well you could
maybe he does maybe you could ask him
about starting a
podcast okay so I sent him an an email I
remember Danny called me and he said hey
is this Matt C I was like yeah this is
Matt he I got your email this is Danny
Jones and I was like
okay and he says uh he saids yeah I got
your email bro he that's a good fucking
email I was like what he goes I get a
lot of emails bro he said that's a good
one that a good one he that was really
good like I mean that was well written
he's like like I immediately knew I had
to talk to you and I said oh okay I said
uh because you know I start off with I
think I started off with hey my name is
Matt Cox and I'm a con
man was recently released from federal
prison and so he was like oh yeah I mean
who who says that so anyway he said uh
what's going on I said well and I tell
him what's going on I want to start a
podcast blah blah blah and you know
Danny he listens to me for 30 minutes to
an hour and I've heard this and this and
he's like yeah well he's you know
YouTube's not really like that and
that's not really how we do it and you
know I don't know that you're you're
going to have to get a production
company and blah blah blah he goes but
you know what what you really need to do
is to see if people are even interested
in you or your story or you're able to
talk you should come on my show you know
Shameless yeah trying to get some
content well I mean so as I told you
offline the Danny and concrete podcast
is really good so people should
definitely listen to it yeah yeah I mean
it turns out people do like listening to
you turns out I mean you're good at at
telling stories well any I by the time I
got I couldn't do Danny's podast like I
can't do it bro I'm in the halfway house
so maybe I get out of the halfway house
and a couple months go by just maybe two
months three months go by and one day I
get a phone call from Danny he's like
bro you're out of the halfway house
right and I was like cuz I told him I
got out in July I was like October
November I'm like right he's like listen
I had a guest fall through I got nobody
I need you to come on I answered all
your questions you know I'd call them
five six times you know I you said and I
was like a I was like I'll fuck it I'll
do it that video got like a two million
views then I did Patrick Bet David flew
me out you know then I did soft white
underbelly you know then I did Vlad then
I did all like people started and I'm
sorry and then you know it just blew up
and then people started asking me to
come and you know talk for no reason for
which was crazy but you were saying I'm
sorry is your jzz still with us no he
died uh when I was in
prison he came to see me uh yeah he came
to see me two or three times when is the
first time he found out that you were
doing fraud the first time I got in
trouble when you got the pro because I
had you know I had to kind of
explain that you you know like
something's happening I didn't want him
to hear from anybody else so you so you
talk to him directly about
it super
disappointed did he ever tell you he
loves you after that so I after I got
the 26 years and the government decided
they weren't going to Indi
anybody and I really was like wow this
is it like you're done he came to see me
but just by himself and I remember
he I remember when he came to see
me I you know he was by it was by
himself like he never came by himself so
I remember
thinking my mom something happened to my
mom and I like as soon as I walked in
you know he walked in like what I go
where's mom and he goes oh no she's fine
she's fine and he sat down with me and
he said
uh and I he said uh how how are you
doing I was like I'm good and he was
just
like you know he was getting sick he was
getting
older so you know we talked for a little
bit uh just about the situation and I
was like yeah he's like what are you
going to do and I was like you know
there's nothing I can do like everybody
I've called multiple attorneys I've
talked to people there's nothing I can
do and he was like um you know we you're
going to figure it out you know he
goes
um he said you're
clever and you're smart and you're going
to you're not going to do all of that
time and I was like I'm
done it's
over I'm going to get out of here when
I'm 60 if I behave myself and if I don't
I'll be
64 and he was like that's not going to
happen and
uh so he said uh I think that was the
first time he you know I knew he was
proud of me when I was making money but
he never said it you know you got the
look like he was like
impressed but we were sitting
there and he said I remember he said
because it's the only time I can ever
remember him saying he was proud of me
and I remember he said you're going to
figure this out he said I'm not proud of
where you ended
up but you've done amazing things you
know I wish you'd use your talents for
something different but you've done
things that I could have never done and
you've LED an amazing adventurous life
and I'm proud of
you and that you know I wish he could
see you
no my mom uh I my Mom saw me my mom's
funny cuz my mom came to see me my mom's
a gangster
MH my mom came to see me every two weeks
for 13 years she missed about a month
and a half when she had a
stroke and ended up in a wheelchair and
then she came in the wheelchair and she
would make my brother bring bring her my
brother and sister would be like Mom are
you sure you want to go like you know it
it's it's so hard to it's such a long
drive and you get so tired well I'll
sleep in the
car I know but you know uh then you we
have to wait in that that Li the the you
know in that um the waiting area you
know forever and it takes forever well
I'm in the wheelchair so I'm
fine well I know but it's such a pain to
get in and out and then in and out she
was like she was I'm going to see my son
and you're taking
me she uh yeah so I
I so she yeah she was uh she was
something else and and uh I would say
you
know like if if I had to
say you know I don't think about all the
things I did to get out like I know you
know there's all these guys that are you
know like you know oh I wouldn't have
done that I'd have been a standup guy
and I'd have been well good for fucking
you bro I wanted to get out I wanted out
and
the icing on the cake of me getting
out and I I would have cut every
motherfucker's head in that prison
off I was able to get
out just in time to
spend the
last year and a half of my mother's life
with her I saw her two or three times a
week took her to dinner once a
week was able to W go on walks with her
in her wheelchair I was sitting right
next to her when she had her final
stroke
I held her
hand when she took her last
breath so if I have to be called a
snitch the rest of my life I don't give
a fuck
like I I may not deserve more but she
deser
more do you
regret so she just look back would you
do it would you do any part of your life
different oh I'd scrap all this yeah
yeah um yeah I'd scrap all this to be
you know you always hear these guys say
I wouldn't change it because it made me
the man I am today the man I am today is
the fucking
54y old scumbag multiple felons starting
my life over broke you
know living off of scraps you know
trying to make YouTube work like you
know I've
got you know two dead parents I'm
divorced I have a son that doesn't talk
to me I have a son that doesn't talk to
me for good reason not because of a
misunderstanding because he understands
like I he's you can't even argue with
him he's got a powerful argument like I
don't want to be a part of this guy's
life he's a scumbag he stole money he
went on the Run he abandoned me when I
was you know three years old I don't
want anything to do with
him like
I I get it like I you know and I tried
to I tried to I've tried to do all the
right things you know I wrote the
letters i i i pictures I've tried to
call and it's not happening
like I would do anything to go back and
just be that regular middle class guy
with the two kids and the wife working a
regular job you know I I like that's a
good life you know those are that's a
good person and you know
I I just made one arrogant decision
after another after another until it
snowballed and I couldn't take it back
and then I did everything I could and if
and if I
wasn't the
calculating backstabbing scumbag
motherfucker that I can be I'd be in
prison right now so you
know so yeah yeah I would much rather be
a CPA right now I would much rather you
know should have stuck with being an
insurance adjuster or something I mean
you know I never should have Whited that
30-day L out never it was a mistake that
was your first mistake that was a huge
mistake you think your son will forgive
you
no unfortunately according to my my
ex-wife and my sister and everybody that
he is a part of their lives you know and
I've seen them you know my mother's
funeral I saw him you know I I've seen
him at several functions you look across
and
he looks right through
me
uh I think that he's a everybody says
he's a he's just like you he's just like
you and everybody says I'm just like my
dad um I've never smoked a cigarette
I've never drank alcohol not a drop
never done any
drugs because my dad dad was an
alcoholic and my dad smoked two packs a
day and everything in our house rre of
nicotine and I've never smoked and my
dad was a a pill head he was he was
always on some kind of prescription
medication he was drug you know and I
didn't want to I don't want to I didn't
want to be that person and like one day
I drew a line in the sand and I wouldn't
do
it and I think he's drawn A Line in the
Sand and he's
decided you know this this is the hill
I'm going to die on and I'm I'm not
going to back off it and and the thing
is my ex-wife tells him this he's a good
person you should be in his life his his
father cuz he was adopted when I was in
prison they adopted him uh Nick is his
uh you know his his dad uh Nick has told
him Nick came to see me when I was in
prison you know Nick has told him like
Hey you this this is a mistake you're
making a mistake like everybody that
knows me knows him and he said he has
said no so I fully believe it's no I
mean I hope it's not well I hope he
forgives you I think there's a lot of
good in you despite you calling yourself
a scumbag over and over in this podcast
I keep bothering you you mentioned that
earlier um what advice would you give to
young people given that you've lived
quite a non-standard life what advice
would you give them how to live a life
they can be proud
of I I mean
it's it's if I'm in a position that
anybody would listen to me but I I
because to me and I don't have any
advice that I don't think a father would
give you and it's like work hard be
appreciative I mean things are so good
out here I hear people complain all the
time and I think a huge part of just
being happy is being appreciative like I
didn't appreciate anything when I had
this is so cliche but when I had all the
money in the
world I was miserable but when I got out
with nothing I was happier in prison
with nothing than I was with2 or three
million prior to prison and driving
dating a chick I was never should have
been dating driving a sports car
vacationing all over the world
miserable I'm crying driving away from
prison because I already missed my
friends you you could have never told me
that was going to happen turns out money
in fact does not buy happiness no and I
know and it it is such a cliche right
but it's it's so true crying driving
away from prison yeah you know what um I
met my wife in the halfway
house so she had just gotten out of
prison she was in the halfway house with
me she just did five years for like a
meth conspiracy I never would have met
her if I didn't G to prison you know and
now your uh date night is hunting
alligator together yeah we uh that was
that was that was like a month or so ago
this is Florida folks what this what
this is what badass people do in Florida
my my my wife hunting is a former she
used to so she was a milit an MP in the
military she was she did she hunted she
ran
a hog hunting tour guide service for six
years yeah went to prison for five years
got out and then you know now she's a
marine
mechanic and yeah our date night the
other night was uh we went in the middle
of the night went to uh Lake okobe and
went hog I went alligator hunting yeah
and if I may say so she's quite
beautiful so thank you and I did I did
nice she didn't want to date me in the
halfway house too I kept saying I feel
like you're sweet on me she's like I'm
not yeah I'm not I I make fun of guys
like you you're a city boy I'm like I
don't know I feel like well you wore her
down that's just right EX what I did
yeah it's that Charisma it always works
well Matt thank you for for being so
honest thank you for being who you are I
do think there's a lot of good in you
and thank you for telling your story and
the story of others who have
uh who have made mistakes in their life
thank you for talking today I appreciate
you having me on that was a really short
conversation thanks for listening to
this conversation with Matthew Cox to
support this podcast please check out
our sponsors in the description and now
let me leave you with some words from
Mario PUO author of the
godfa behind every successful Fortune
there's a
crime thank you for listening and hope
to see you next
time