Kind: captions
Language: en
he said very specifically depending on
the questions you ask Putin MH um you
know you could be arrested or not and I
said listen to what you're saying you're
saying the US government has like
control over my questions and they'll
arrest me if I ask the wrong question
like how are we better than Putin if
that's true killing naal during the
Munich security conference in the middle
of a debate over $60 billion in Ukraine
funding maybe the Russians are dumb I
didn't get that Vibe at all I don't
think we kill people in other countries
to affect election outcomes oh wait no
we do it a lot and have for 80
years the following is a conversation
with Tucker Carlson a highly influential
and often controversial political
commentator when he was a fox Time
magazine called him the most powerful
conservative in America after Fox he has
continued to host big impactful
interviews and shows on X on the Tucker
Carlson podcast and on Tucker
carlson.com I recommend subscribing even
if you disagree with his views it is
always good to explore diversity of
perspectives most recently he
interviewed the president of Russia
Vladimir Putin we discussed this the
topic of Russia Putin naal and the war
in Ukraine at length in this
conversation please allow me to say a
few words about the very fact that I did
this interview I have received a lot of
criticism publicly and privately when I
announced that will be talking with
Tucker for people who think I shouldn't
do the conversation with Tucker or
generally think that there are certain
people I should never talk to I'm sorry
but I disagree I will talk to everyone
as long as they're willing to talk
genuinely in long form for two three
four more hours I will talk to Putin and
to zalinski to Trump and to Biden to
Tucker and to John Stewart ALC Obama and
many more people with very different
views on the world I want to understand
people and ideas that's what long form
conversations are supposed to be all
about now for people who criticize me
for not asking tough questions I hear
you but again I disagree I do often ask
tough questions but I try to do it in a
way that doesn't shut down the other
person putting them into a defensive
state where they give only shallow
talking points instead I'm looking
always for the expression of genuinely
held ideas and the deep roots of those
ideas when done well this gives us a
chance to really hear out the guest and
to begin to understand what and how they
think and I trust the intelligence of
you The Listener to make up your own
mind to see through the bullshit to the
degree there's bullshit and to see to
the heart of the person sometimes I fail
at this but I'll continue working my ass
off to improve all that said I find that
this no tough question criticism often
happens when the guest is a person The
Listener simply hates and wants to see
them grilled into embarrassment called
the liar a greedy egomaniac a killer
maybe even an evil human being and so on
if you are such a listener what you want
is drama not wisdom in this case this
show is not for you there are many shows
you can go to for that with hosts that
are way more charismatic and
entertaining than I'll ever
be if you do stick around please know I
will work hard to do this well and to
keep improving thank you for your
patience and thank you for your support
I love you
all this is Alex Freedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Tucker
Carlson what was your first impression
when you met Vladimir Putin for the
interview I thought he seemed nervous
and I was very surprised by that and I
thought he seemed like someone who'd
overthought it a little bit who had a
plan and I don't think that's the right
way to go into any interview my strong
sense having done a lot of them for a
long time is that it's better to know
what you think to say you know as much
as you can honestly so you don't get
confused by your own lies um and just to
be yourself and I thought that he went
into it um like an
overprepared student and and I thinking
why is why is he nervous um but you know
I guess because he thought a lot of
people were going to see it but he was
also probably prepared to um to give you
a full lesson in history as he did well
I was totally shocked by that and very
annoyed because I thought he was
filibustering I thought he would I mean
I asked him as I usually do the most
obvious dumbest question ever which is
you know why'd you do this
and um he had said in a speech that I
think is worth reading I don't speak
Russian so I I haven't heard it in the
original but um he had said at the
moment of the beginning of the war he
had given this address to Russians in
which he explained to the fullest extent
we have seen so far why he was doing
this and he said in that speech I fear
that NATO the West the United States the
Biden Administration will preemptively
attack us
and I thought well that's interesting I
me I can't evaluate whether that's a
fear rooted in reality or or one rooted
in paranoia but I thought well that's
well that's an answer right there and so
I alluded to that in my question and
rather than answering it he went off on
this long from my perspective kind of
tiresome um sort of greatest hits of
Russian history and the implication I
thought was well Ukraine is ours or
Eastern Ukraine is ours already um and I
thought he was doing that to avoid
answering the question so you know the
last thing you want when you're
interviewing someone is to get
rolled uh and I didn't want to be rolled
so I a couple of times interrupted him
politely I thought um but he wasn't
having it and then I thought you know
what I'm not here to prove that I'm a
great interviewer it's kind of not about
me I want to know who this guy is I
think a western audience a global
audience has a right to know more about
the guy and so just let him talk you
know cuz it's not you know I don't feel
like my reputations on the line people
have already drawn conclusions about me
I suppose to the extent they have I'm
not interested really in those
conclusions anyway so just let him talk
and so I calmed down and just let him
talk and in retrospect I thought that
was really really interesting you know
whether you agree with it or not or
whether you think it's relevant to the
war in Ukraine or not that was his
answer and so it's inherently
significant well you said he was nervous
were you nervous were you afraid this is
Vladimir Putin I wasn't afraid at all
and I wasn't nervous at all did you
drink tea beforehand no I did my my
normal uh regimen of nicotine pouches
and coffee uh no I'm not a tea drinker I
tried not to eat you know all the sweets
they put in front of us which is that
that is my weakness is eating crap um
but you eat a lot of sugar as you know
before an interview and it and it does
dull you so I I successfully resisted
that but I no I wasn't nervous I wasn't
nervous the whole time I was there why
would I be you know I'm 54 my kids are
grown I believe in God you know I'm not
I'm almost never nervous but um no I
wasn't nervous I was just interested I
mean I couldn't I you know I'm
interested in Soviet history I studied
it in college I've read about it my
entire life my dad you know worked in
the Cold War it was a constant topic of
conversation and so to be in the Kremlin
in a room where Stalin made decisions
either wartime decisions or decisions
about murdering his own population I
just I just couldn't get over it you
know we're in molotovs Old office so for
me that was I was just blown away by
that I knew I thought I knew a lot about
Russia it turns that I knew a lot about
the Soviet period you know the 1937
Purge trials the famine in Ukraine like
I knew a fair amount about that but I
really knew nothing about contemporary
Russia less than I thought I did it
turned out and um but yeah I was just I
was just blown away by where we were and
that's kind of one of the main drivers
at this stage in my life of you know
that that's why I do what I do is cu I'm
interested in stuff and I want to see as
much as I can and try and draw
conclusions from it to the extent I can
so I was very much caught up in that but
no I wasn't nervous I didn't think he
was going to like kill me or something
and I'm not particularly afraid of that
anyway so not afraid of dying not really
no I mean again it's a t you know it's
it's an age and stage in life thing I
mean i' I have four children so there
were times when they were little where I
was terrified of dying because if I died
it would have huge consequences but no I
mean at this point I don't want to die
I'm really enjoying my life but I've
been with the same girl for 40 years and
I have four children who I'm extremely
close to well now five uh a
daughter-in-law and I love them all I'm
really close to them I tell them I love
them every day I I don't I've had a
really interesting life what was the
goal just Linger on that what was the
goal for the interview like how were you
thinking about it what would success be
like in your head leading into it to
bring more information disinformation to
the public yeah that's it I mean I have
really strong feelings about um
what's you know happening not just in
Ukraine or Russia but around the world I
think the world is resetting to the
Grave disadvantage of the United States
I don't think most Americans are aware
of that at all and uh so that's my view
and I've I've stated it many times um
because it's
sincere but my goal was
to have more information brought to the
West so people could make their own
decisions about whether this is a good
idea I mean I just I guess I reject the
whole premise of the war in Ukraine from
the American perspective which is you
know a tiny group of dumb people in
Washington has decided to do this for
reasons they won't really explain and
you don't have a role in it at all as an
American citizen as the person who's
paying for it whose children might be
drafted to fight it you know to shut up
and Obey I just I just reject that
completely you know I'm a I think I
guess I'm a child of a different era I'm
a child of participatory democracy to
some extent where your opinion as a
citizen is not
irrelevant and um so I I I'm just and I
guess the level of lying about it was
starting to drive me crazy and I've said
and I will say again I am not an expert
on the region or really any region other
than say Western Maine I just don't you
know I'm not Russian and
um but it was obvious to me that we were
being lied to in ways that were just it
was crazy the scale of lives and I'll
give you one example the idea that
Ukraine would inevitably win
this war now victory was never as it
never is defined precisely nothing is
ever defined precisely which is always a
tell that there's deception at the heart
of the claim but um Ukraine's on the
verge of winning well I don't know I
mean I'm hardly a tactician or military
expert for the fifth time I'm not an
expert on Russia or Ukraine I just look
at Wikipedia Russia has a 100 million
more people than Ukraine 100
million it has much deeper industrial
capacity War material capacity than all
of NATO
combined for example Russia is turning
out artillery shells which are you know
significant in a ground war at a ratio
of 7
to1 compared to all NATO countries
combined that's all of
Europe Russia is producing seven times
the artillery shells as all of Europe
combined what that's an amazing fact and
it turns out to be a really significant
fact in fact the significant fact but if
you ask your average person in this
country even a fairly well informed
person of good faith who's just trying
to understand what's going on who's
going to win this war well Ukraine's
going to win they're on the right side
and they think that because our media
who really just do serve the interest of
the US government period they are State
media in that sense have told him that
for over two years and I I I was in
Hungary last summer talking to the Prime
Minister Victor orbon who's a you know
whatever you think of him is a very
smart guy very smart guy like smart on a
scale that we're not used to uh in our
leaders and I said to him off camera so
is Ukraine going to win and he looked at
me like I was deranged like or I was
congenitally you know deficient are they
going to win no of course they can't win
it's tiny compared to Russia Russia has
a wartime economy Ukraine doesn't really
have an economy no look at the
populations he was like looked at me
like I was stupid and I said to him you
know I think most Americans believe that
because NBC News and CNN and all the
news channels all of them tell them that
because it's framed exclusively in moral
terms and it's churchil versus Hitler
and of course church is going to Prevail
in the end and it's just so dishonest
that even it doesn't even matter what I
want to happen or what I think ought to
happen that's a distortion of what is
happening and if I have any job at all
which I sort of don't actually at this
point but if I do have a job it's to
just try to be honest and that's a lie
there is a more Nuance discussion about
what winning might look like you're
right a Nuance discussion is not being
had but it is possible for Ukraine to
quote unquote win with the help of
United States I I guess that
conversation needs to begin by defining
terms and the key term is Win what does
that mean peace a ceasefire who owns
which land yes coming to the table with
the as you call the parent the United
States yes putting leverage on the
negotiation to make sure there's a
fairness amen well I of course as a and
and I should just restate this I am uh
not emotionally involved in this I'm
American in every sense and my only
interest is in America I'm not leaving
ever and so I'm looking at this purely
from our perspective what's good for us
but also as a human being as a Christian
I mean I I hate war and anybody who
doesn't hate War um shouldn't have power
in my opinion so I agree with those that
definition
vehemently a victory is like not killing
an entire generation of your population
it's not being completely destroyed to
be eaten up by black rock or whatever
comes next for them so yeah we were
close to that a year and a half ago and
the Biden Administration dispatched
Boris Johnson the briefly prime minister
of the UK to stop it and to say to
zalinsky who I feel sorry for by the way
because he's caught between these forces
that are bigger than he is to say no you
cannot come to any terms with Russia and
the result of that has not been a
Ukrainian Victory it's just been more
dead ukrainians and a lot of profit for
the West it's it's a moral crime in my
opinion and I tried to ask Boris Johnson
about it because why wouldn't I after he
denounced me as a tool of the Kremlin or
something and um he demanded a million
dollars to talk to me wow and this just
happened last week and uh and by the way
in writing too I'm not making this I'm
not just for the record you demanded a
million dollar from me to talk to me
today I did and you paid um no I'm of
course kidding but um and I I said to
his guy I said I just interviewed Putin
who was widely recognized as a bad guy
and he did it for free he didn't demand
a million dollars he wasn't in this for
profit like are you telling me that
Boris Johnson is sleazier than Vladimir
Putin and of course that is the message
and so I I guess these are really it's
not just about Boris Johnson being a sad
you know rapacious fraud which he is
obviously but it's about like the future
of the West
and the future of Ukraine this country
that purportedly we care so much about
all these people are dying and like what
is the endgame it's also
deranged that I didn't imagine and don't
imagine that I could like add anything
very meaningful to the conversation
because I'm not a genius okay but I felt
like I could at the very least puncture
some of the lies and that's an inherent
good Vladimir Putin after the interview
said that he wasn't fully satisfied
because you weren't aggressive enough
you didn't ask
sharpen off questions first of all what
do you think about him saying that I
don't even understand it um I guess it I
I it does seem like the one Putin
statement that Western media take at
face value everything else Putin says is
a lie except his criticism of me which
is true but I mean I have no idea what
he meant by that I can only tell you
what um my goal was as I've suggested
was not to make it about me I I watched
you know he hasn't done any any
interviews of any kind for years
but the last interview he did with an
English-speaking reporter Western media
reporter was like many of the other
interviews he'd done with Western media
reporters Mike Wallace's son did an
interview with him that was of the same
variety and it was all about him you
know I'm a good person you're a bad
person and I just feel like that's the
most tiresome fruitless kind of
interview it's not about me I I don't
think I'm an especially good person I've
definitely never claimed to be but
people can make their own judgments and
again the only judgments that I care
about are my wife and children and God
so I'm just not interested in proving
I'm a good person and I just want to
hear from him and and I had a lot of I
mean you should see the I I almost never
write questions down but I did in this
case because I had months to well I had
three years to think about it as I was
trying to book the interview which I did
myself but they were all it was all
about internal Russian politics and naly
and and I had a lot of I thought really
good questions and then at the last
second and you make these decisions as
you know since you interview people a
lot often you make them on the Fly and I
thought no I want to talk about the
things that haven't been talked about
and that I think matter in a world
historic sense and the number one among
those of course is the War and what it
means for the world and um so I stuck to
that I mean I could answer I did ask
about gershkovich who I felt sorry for
and I wanted Putin to release him to me
and I was offended that he didn't I
thought his rationale was absurd well we
want to trade him for someone I said
well that doesn't that make him a
hostage you know which of course it does
uh but other than that I really wanted
to keep it to the things that I think
matter most you know people can judge
whether I did a good job or not but that
was my that was that was my decision in
the moment what was your gut did you
want to ask some tough questions as
follow-ups on certain topics I don't
know what it would mean to ask a tough
question clarifying questions I I
suppose they would I guess I just wanted
him to talk you know I just wanted to
hear his perspective again I've probably
asked more asshole questions than like
any living American you know I'm as as
has been noted correctly I'm a dick by
my nature and um so I don't I I just
feel at this stage of my life I didn't
need to prove that I could like Vladimir
Putin answer the question sure sure you
know I think if I had been you know 34
instead of 54 I definitely would have
done that cuz I would have thought this
is really about me and I need to prove
myself
no I I just there's a war going on that
is Wrecking the US economy in a way and
at a scale people do not understand the
US dollar is going away that was of
course inevitable ultimately because
everything dies including currencies but
that death that process of death has
been accelerated exponentially by the
behavior of the Biden Administration and
the US Congress particularly the
sanctions and people don't understand
what the ramifications of that are the
ramifications are poverty in the United
States okay so I just I just wanted to
get to that um because I'm coming at
this from not a Global Perspective I'm
coming at it from an American
perspective so you mentioned navali mhm
after you left navali died in prison yes
what are your thoughts on just at a high
level first about his death it's awful I
mean imagine dying in prison you know
I've thought about it a lot I've known a
lot of people in prison a lot including
some very good friends of mine so I felt
instantly sad about it um from a
geopolitical perspective I don't know
any more than that and I I laugh at and
sort of resent but mostly fun amusing
the claims by American politicians who
really are the dumbest politicians in
the world actually you know this
happened and here's what it means and
it's like actually as a factual matter
we don't know what happened we don't
know what happened we have no freaking
idea what happened we can say and I did
say and I will say again I think I don't
think you should put opposition figures
in prisent I really don't I don't period
um it happens a lot around the world
happens in this country as you know and
I'm against all of it but do we know how
we died the short answer no we don't now
if I had to guess I would
say killing naali during the Munich
security conference in the middle of a
debate over $60 billion in Ukraine
funding maybe the Russians are dumb I
didn't get that Vibe at all you know I
just don't I don't see it but maybe you
know maybe they killed him I mean they
certainly put him in prison which I'm
against um but I here's what I do know
is that we don't know and so when Chuck
Schumer stands up
and Joe Biden reads some card in front
of him with lines about navali it's like
I'm allowed to laugh at that because
it's absurd you don't know there's a lot
of interesting ideas of well if he was
killed who killed him because it could
be Putin it could be somebody in Russia
who's not Putin y it could be ukrainians
because it would benefit the war they
killed Dugan's daughter in Moscow so
yeah it's possible and it could be I
mean the United States could also be
involved I don't think we kill people in
other countries to affect election
outcomes oh wait no we do it a lot and
have for 80 years and it's shameful I
can say that as an American because it's
my money in my name um yeah I'm really
offended by that and I never thought
that was true and I spent again I'm much
older than you and so I spent my my my
worldview was defined by the Cold
War and very much in the house I lived
in in Georgetown in Washington DC you
know that's what we talked about and and
the left at the time you know I don't
know the wacko MIT Professor who I never
had any respect for who I know you've
interviewed Etc like the hard left was
always saying well the United States
government is interfering in other
elections and I just dismissed that
completely out of hand uh as stupid and
actually a SL against my country but it
turned out to all be true or or
substantially true anyway and that's
been a real shock for me in middle age
to to understand that but anyway as to
Nal look I don't know um but we should
always proceed on the basis of what we
do know which is to say on the basis of
truth knowable truth and if you have an
entire policy-making apparatus that is
making the biggest decisions on the face
of the planet on the basis of things
that are bullshit or lies you're going
to get bad outcomes
every time um every time and that's
that's why we are where we are does it
bother you that basically the most
famous opposition figure in Russia is
sitting in prison of course it does of
course it bothers me I mean it bothered
me when I got there it bothers me now I
was sad when he died yeah I mean that's
one of the measures of it's one of the
basic measures of political Freedom are
you imprisoning people who oppose you
you know are you imprisoning people who
pose a physical risk to you I mean
there's some
subjective decision-making involved in
these things however big picture yeah do
you have opposition leaders in jail it's
not a free it's not a politically free
society and Russia isn't
obviously and as I said A friend of mine
from childhood an American actually
who's a wonderful person lives in Russia
with his Russian Moscow with his Russian
wife and I had dinner with him he's a
very balanced Guy totally nonpolitical
person
and um and speaks Russian and loves his
many Russian children and loves the
culture and there's a lot to love the
culture that produced Tolstoy you know
it's not a gas station with nuclear
weapons sorry only a moron would say
that it's a very deep culture I don't
fully understand it of course but I I
admire it who wouldn't but I asked him
like what's it like living here and he
goes it's you know it's great Mo Moscow
is a great City indisputably he said you
don't want to get involved in Russian
politics and I said what he said well
you could get hurt you could wind up
like nval if you did um but also it's
just too complicated you know the
Russian mind is not is not exactly the
it's a Wester it's a European city but
it's not quite European and um the way
they think is very very complex very
complex it's just it's too complicated
just don't get involved and
um I would just say two things
one uh I'm not sure I mean like I don't
know but my strong sense is that naval's
death whoever did it probably didn't
have a lot to do with the the coming
election in Russia my sense from talking
to Putin and the people around him is
they're not really focused on that I
mean in fact I asked one of his top
advisers when's the election and she
looked at me completely confused she
didn't know the date of the election
okay she's like a March okay um and I
asked a bunch of other people just in
Moscow who's who's Putin running against
like nobody knew so it's not a real
election right in the in the sense that
we would recognize at all um second I
was really struck by so many things in
Moscow and really bothered by deeply
bothered by a lot of things that I saw
there um but one thing I noticed was the
total absence of culture personality
propaganda which I expected to see and
have seen around the world Jordan for
example I don't if you've been to Jordan
but go to Jordan in every building there
are pictures of the king and his
extended family and and that's a sign of
political insecurity you know you don't
create a cult of personality unless
you're personally insecure and also
unless you're worried about losing your
grip and power none of that that's it's
interesting and I expected to see a lot
of it you know like statues of Putin no
there no statues of anybody other than
like Christian Saints so that was like
I'm not quite sure I'm just reporting
what I saw um so yes it's not a in a
political sense it's not a free country
it's not a
democracy uh in the way that we would
understand it or want I don't want to
live there okay cuz I like to say what I
think in fact I make my living doing it
um but it's not stalinist in a
recognizable way and anyone who says it
is should go there and tell me how I
mean this question about the freedom of
the press is
underlying the very fact of the
interview you're having with him right
so you might not need to ask the navali
question but did you feel like are there
things I shouldn't say I mean how honest
you want me to be I mean it when I say I
felt not one twinge of concern for the
eight days that I was there maybe I just
didn't and I feel like I've got a pretty
strong gut sense of things I rely on it
I make all my decisions based on how I
feel my instincts and I didn't feel it
at all um my lawyers before I left and
these are people who work for a big Law
Firm this is not Bob's Law Firm this is
one of the biggest law firms in the
world said you're going to get arrested
if you do this by the US government on
sanctions
violations and I said well you know I
don't I don't recognize the legitimacy
of that actually because I'm American
and I've lived here my whole life and
that's so outrageous that I'm happy to
face that that risk because I I so
reject the premise okay I'm an American
I should be able to talk to anyone I
want to and I I plan to exercise that
freedom which I think I was born with
and I gave them this long long lecture
they're like we're just lawyers but that
was um it was it was a let me put it
this way I don't know how much you dealt
with lawyers but it costs many thousands
of dollars to get a conclusion like that
like they sent a whole bunch of their
summer Associates or whatever they sent
they put a lot of people on this
question checked a lot of precedent and
I think and they sent me a 10-page memo
on it and their sincere conclusion was
do not do this and of course it made me
mad so I was lecturing on on the phone
and I had another call with the head
lawyer and he said well look a lot will
depend on the questions that you ask
Putin if your scen is too nice to him
you could get arrested when you come
back and I was like you're describing
fascist country okay you're saying that
the US government will arrest me if I
don't ask the questions they want asked
is that's what you're saying well we
just think based on what's happened that
that's possible and
so I'm just telling you what happened so
you were okay being arrested in Moscow
arrested I didn't think for a second I
mean maybe look I don't speak Russian
I'd never been there
before everything about the culture was
brand new to me you know ignorance does
protect
you sort of when you have no freaking
idea what's going on you're not worried
about it like this has happened to me
many times uh there's a principle there
that extends throughout life so it's
completely possible that I was in grave
Peril and didn't know it because like
how would I know it you know I'm like a
bumbling English speaker from California
but um I didn't feel it at all but the
lawyers did yeah I mean it scared the
crap out of people you're going to look
and I you have to pay in cash they don't
take credit cards because of sanctions
and you have to go through all these
hoops just procedural Hoops to go to
Russia which I was willing to do because
I wanted to interview Putin because they
told me I couldn't but then there's
another fact which is that I was being
surveilled by the US government
intensely surveilled by the US
government and this came out they
admitted it the NSA admitted it a couple
of years ago that they were up in my
signal account and then they leaked it
to the New York they did that again
before I left and I know that because
two New York Times reporters one of whom
I actually like a lot uh
said oh you're going and called other
people oh he's going to interview Putin
I had told anybody that like anybody
like my wife two producers that's it so
they got that from the government then
I'm over there and of course I want to
see Snowden who I
admire and so I have a we have a mutual
friend so I got his text and come on
over and and Snowden does not want
publicity at
all and so but I really wanted to have
dinner with them so we had dinner in my
hotel room at the four seasons in Moscow
and I said I tried to convince him you
I'd love to do an interview shoot it on
my iPhone you know I'd love to take a
picture together and put it on the
internet because I just want to show
support because I think he's been
railroaded he he had no interest in
living in Russia no intention of being
in Russia the whole thing is all Li but
anyway whatever all this stuff and he
just said respectfully I'd rather not
anyone know that we met great the only
reason I'm telling you this is because
and I didn't tell anybody and I didn't
text it to anybody okay EX accept him
mhm semaphor
semaphor um runs this piece
saying report reporting information they
got from the US Intel agencies leaking
against me using my money in my name in
a supposedly free country they run this
piece saying I'd met with Snowden like
it was a crime or something so again my
interest is in the United States and
preserving freedoms here the ones that I
grew up with and if you have immediate
establishment that acts as an auxiliary
of or acts as employees of the National
Security State you don't have a free
country and that's where we are and I'm
not guessing because I spent my entire
life in that world 33 years I worked in
big news companies and so I know how it
works I know the people involved in it I
could name them Ben Smith of semaphor
among many others and I find that really
objectionable not just on principle
either in effect in practice I don't
want to live in that kind of country and
people are like they externalize all of
their anxiety about this I have noticed
so it's like Russia's not free yeah I
know you know neither's you know bkin
FASA like most countries aren't free
actually but we are we're the United
States we're different and that's my
concern preserving that is my concern
and so they get so exercised about
what's happening in other parts of the
world places they've never been know
nothing about it's almost a way of
ignoring what's happening in their own
country right around them I find it so
strange and sad and weird so the NSA was
tracking you as do you think CIA was
who's is are people still tracking you
look one of the things I did before I
went um just because of the business I'm
in all of us are in and just because we
live here you know we all have theories
about secure Communications channels
like signal is secure Telegraph isn't or
Whatsapp is owned by Mark Zuckerberg you
can't trust okay so I thought you know
before I go over here I was getting all
this we're having all these
conversations my producers and I about
this and I decideed you know I'm just G
to I'm just going to actually find out
like what's really going on so I talked
to two people um who would know trust me
and that's it's all I can say and I hate
to be like I talk to people who would
know by kenu there but I mean it they
would know and both of them said exactly
the same thing which is are you joking
nothing is secure everything is
monitored all the time if if State
actors are involved I mean you can keep
the you know whatever the Malaysian
Mafia from reading your text probably
you cannot keep the big Intel services
from reading your text it's not possible
any of them or listening to your calls
so and that was the firm conclusion of
people who've been involved in it you
know for a long time decades both in
both cases so I just thought you know
what I don't care I don't care I'm not
sending a ton of naked pictures of
myself to anybody not a ton just a
little a 54 dude probably not too many
um but but you so I'm like I'm just so
the guys travel with three people I work
with who I love who I've been around the
world with for many years and I know
them really really well and they all got
you know separate phones and I'm leaving
my other phone back in New York or
whatever and I just decided I don't care
actually and I resent
having to no privacy um because privacy
is a prerequisite for freedom um but I
can't change it and so I have the same
surveilled cell phone and you know I do
switch them out because there it is uh
because if you have too much spyware on
your phone this is true it wrecks the
battery
and no I'm serious it does and we got it
was I don't know five or six years ago
we went to North Korea and um my phone
started acting crazy and so I talked to
someone on the National Security Council
who's actually who called me about this
somehow knew that your phone is being
surveilled by the South Korean
government I was like why the I like the
South Korean government why would they
do that um because they want more
information they thought I was talking
to Trump or
whatever so but I could tell because all
of a sudden the thing would just drain
in like 45 minutes so that is that's a
downside so you keep uh switching phones
getting new phones for the battery life
that's good yeah I mean I try not to do
it you know I'm kind of flinty Yankee
type in some ways so I don't I don't
like to spend $1,000 with a freaking
Apple Corporation too often but yeah I
do I mean you say it lightly but it's
really Troublesome that you as a
journalist would be tracked well they
leaked it to semaphore and they leaked
it to the New York Times look it's I
would even put up well there's nothing I
can do so I have to put up with
everything okay but I would probably not
be actively angry about being shiled
because I'm just so old and I'm I
actually do pay my taxes not sleeping
with the makeup artist or whatever so I
don't care that much the fact that they
are leaking against me that the Intel
services in the United States are
actively engaged in US politics and
media that's so unacceptable that makes
democracy impossible there's no defense
of that and yet NBC News kend delanian
and the rest will defend it and it's
like and and not just on NBC News by the
way on the supposedly conservative
channels too they will defend it and
there's no defending that you can't
can't have democracy if the Intel
services are tampering in elections and
information period so you had no fear
you know your lawyer said be careful
which questions you asked you said I
don't have well the lawyer said no he
said very
specifically if you know depending on
the questions you ask
Putin um you know you could be arrested
or not and I said listen to what you're
saying you're saying the US government
has like control control over my
questions and they'll arrest me if I ask
the wrong question like how are we
better than Putin if that's true and by
the way that's just what the lawyer said
but I I can't
overstate one of the biggest law firms
the United States smart lawyers we've
used for years so I was I was really
shocked by it you said leaders kill
leaders lie yeah I don't believe in
leaders very much like this whole like
oh zelinski's Jesus and Putin's Satan
it's like no they're all leaders of
countries okay like grow up a little bit
you child do you have you ever met a
leader
like all of the first of all anyone who
seeks
power is damaged morally in my opinion
you shouldn't be seeking power you can't
seek power or wealth for its own sake
and remain a decent person that's just
true so there aren't any like really
virtuous billionaires and there aren't
any really virtuous world leaders you
have grades of virtue some are better
than others for
sure but I mean in other words zilinsky
may be better than Putin I'm open to
that
possibility but to claim that one is
evil and the other
is virtuous it's like you're revealing
that you're a child you don't know
anything about how the world actually is
or what reality is like it's it's that's
quite a realist perspective but there is
a spectrum there is a spectrum
absolutely I'm not saying they're all
the same they're not and our task is to
figure out where on the spectrum they
they lie and the
leader uh task is to confuse us and
convince us they're one of the good guys
of course but I actually reject even
that formulation I don't think it's
always about the leaders I mean of
course the leaders make the difference a
good leader has a healthy country and a
bad leader has a decaying country which
is something to think about um but it's
about the ideas and the policies and the
Practical effect of things so we're very
much caught up in the personalities of
various leaders not just our political
leaders but our Business Leaders our
cultural leaders are they good people do
they have the right thoughts it's like
no I I ask a much more basic question
what are the fruits of their behavior
now I always make it personal because I
think everything is personal does his
wife respect him do his children respect
him how are they doing is the country he
runs thriving or is it falling apart if
your life expectancy is going down if
your suicide rate is going up if your
standard of living is tanking you're not
a good leader I don't care what you tell
me I don't care what you claim you
represent I don't care about the ideas
or the systems that you say you embody
it's it's it's dogs barking to me how's
your life expectancy how's your suicide
rate what's drug use like are people
having children are are people's
children more likely to live in a free
or more prosperous Society than than you
did and their grandparents did like
those are the only measures that matter
to me the rest is a lie but anyway the
point is we just get so obsessed with
like the theater around people or people
and we miss the bigger things that are
happening and we we allow ourselves to
be deceived into thinking that what
doesn't matter at all matters that moral
victories are all that matters no
actually facts on the ground victories
matter more than anything I you
certainly see in this country black
lives matter for example how many black
people did that
help it hurt a lot of black people but
in the end we should be able to measure
it you know like what how many black
people have died by gunfire in the four
years since George Floyd died well the
numbers gone way way up and that was a
black lives matter operation defund the
police so I think we can say as a
factual matter
databased matter black lives matter
didn't help black people and if it did
tell me how well these are important
moral victories I'm over that that's
just another lie you know long Litany of
Lies so I try to see the rest of the
world that way and but more than
anything I try to see world events
through the lens of an American because
I am one and what does this mean for us
and it's not even the war it's the
sanctions that will forever change the
United States our standard of living the
way our government operates that more
than any single thing in my lifetime
screwed the United States leving those
sanctions in the way that we did was
crazy and that was that for me the main
takeaway from my eight days in Moscow
was not Putin he's a leader whatever
they're none of them are that different
actually in my pretty extensive
experience no it was Moscow that blew my
mind I was not prepared for that at all
and I thought I knew a lot about Moscow
my dad worked there on and off in the
80s and 90s CU US government employee
and he was always coming back Moscow
it's a nightmare and all this stuff no
electricity I got there almost exactly
two years after sanctions totally cut
off from Western Financial systems
kicked out of Swift can't use US Dollars
no banking no credit cards and that City
it just fact
I'm not endorsing the system I'm not
endorsing the whole country I didn't go
to Lake ball you know I didn't go to
turkistan I just went to Moscow largest
city in Europe 13 million people I drove
all around it and that city is way nicer
outwardly anyway I don't live there than
any City we have by a lot and by nicer
let me be specific no graffiti no
homeless no people using drugs in the
street totally tidy no garbage on the
ground and no no Forest of Steel and
concrete Soul destroying buildings none
of the postmodern architecture that
oppresses us without without even our
knowledge none of that crap it's a truly
beautiful city and that's not an
endorsement of Putin and by the way it
didn't make me love Putin it made me
hate my own leaders because I grew up in
a country that had cities kind of like
that that were nice cities that were
safe and I we don't have that anymore
and how did that happen did Putin do
that I don't think Putin did that
actually I think the people in charge of
that the Mayors the governors the
president they did that and they should
be held accountable for it so I think
cleanliness and Architectural design is
not the entirety of the metrics that
matter when you measure a city they're
the main metrics that matter they're the
main metrics that matter the main
metrics that matter are cleanliness
safety and Beauty in my opinion and one
of the big lies that we are
told in our world is that no something
you can't measure that has no actual
effect on your life matters
most bullshit what matters most to say
it again Beauty safety cleanliness lots
of other things matter too A whole bunch
of things matter but if I were to put
them in order it's not some like
theoretical well actually I don't know
if you know that the Duma has no power
okay I get that freedom of speech
matters enormously to me they have less
freedom of speech in Russia than we do
in the United States we are superior to
them in that way but you can't tell me
that living in a city where you know
your six-year-old daughter can walk to
the bus stop and ride on a clean bus or
ride in a beautiful subway car that's on
time and not get assaulted that doesn't
matter no that matters almost more than
anything actually and we can have both
and like the normal regime Defenders and
morons John Stewart or whatever he's
calling himself they're like well that's
the price of Freedom like people
shitting on the sidewalk is the price of
Freedom it's like you can't fool me
because I've lived here for 54 years I
know that it's not the price of Freedom
cuz I lived in a country that was both
free and clean and orderly so that's not
a trade-off I think I have to make you
can't that is the beauty of being a
little bit older because you're like no
I remember that actually it wasn't what
you're saying we didn't have racial
segregation in
1985 it was a really nice country that
kind of respected itself I was here and
I think with younger people you can tell
them that and they're like 1985 were you
know selling slaves in Madison Square
Garden it's like no they weren't you're
going to Madison Square Garden and not
stepping over a single fenel addict it
is true there doesn't have to be a
trade-off between cleanliness and
freedom of
speech but it is also true that in
dictatorships cleanliness is and
Architectural design is easier to
achieve and perfect and often is done so
so you can show off look how great our
cities are while you're suppressing of
course of course I agree with that
vehemently this is not a defense of the
Russian system at all and if I felt that
way I would not only move there but I
would announc I was moving there I'm not
ashamed of My Views I never have been
and for all the people who are trying to
impute secret motives to my
words I'm like the one person in America
you don't need to do that with if you
think I'm a racist ask me and I'll tell
you are you a racist of no I am a sexist
though right great anyway no but if I
was like a defender of Vladimir Putin I
would just say I'm defending Vladimir
Putin now I'm not I am attacking our
leaders and I'm grieving over the low
expectations of our people you don't
need to put up with this you don't need
to put up with foreign Invaders stealing
from you you know occupying your kids
school your kids can't get an education
because people from foreign countries
broke our laws and shut up here and
they've taken over the school that it's
that's not a feature of Freedom actually
that's the opposite it that's what
enslavement looks like and so I'm just
saying raise your expectations a little
bit you can have a clean functional safe
country crime is totally optional crime
is something our leaders decide to have
or not have it's not something just
appears
organically I I wrote a book about crime
30 years ago I I've thought a lot about
this you have as much crime as you put
up with period and it doesn't make you
less free to not tolerate murder in fact
it makes you unfree to have a lot of
murders
uh and so I just but it makes me sad
that people are like well you know I
guess this is t i I can't like live in
New York City anymore because of
inflation and filth and illegal aliens
and people shooting each other but you
know I'm just I'm glad because this is
vibrant and strong and free it's like
that's not Freedom actually at all your
point is well taken you can have both
but do you regret we had both that's the
point we had I saw thought do you regret
to
degree using the Moscow Subway and the
grocery store as a mechanism by which to
make that point no I mean I thought I I
mean look I'm one of the more
unself-aware people you will ever
interview so to ask me uh you know how
will this be
perceived I literally have no idea and
kind of limited interest but um I
I was so shocked by it I was so shocked
by it and and there were two and to the
extent I regret anything and am to blame
for anything it would be not and I've
done this a lot not giving it context
not fully explaining why are we doing
this the grocery store I was shocked by
the prices and yes I'm familiar with
exchange rates but very familiar with
exchange rates but those don't and I
adjusted them for exchange rates and
this is 2 years in to sanctions total
isolation from the
so I would expect in fact I did expect
until I got there that their supply
Chains would be crushed how do you get
good stuff if you don't have access to
Western
markets and I didn't fully get the
answer because I was occupied doing
other things when I was there but
somehow they have and that's the point
and they haven't had the supply chains
Pro problems that I predicted in other
words sanctions haven't made the country
noticeably worse okay so again this is
commentary of the United States and our
policy makers why are we doing this
it's forcing the rest of the world into
a block against us called bricks they're
getting off the US dollar that will mean
a lot of dollars are going to come back
here and destroy our economy and
impoverish this country so the
consequences the stakes are really high
they're huge and we're not even hurting
Russia so like what the hell are we
doing one on the subway that Subway was
built by Joseph Stalin right before the
second world war I'm not endorsing
Stalin I obviously Stalin col ism is a
thing that I hate and I don't want to
come to my country I'm making the
obvious point that for over 80 years
you've had these Fresco and chandeliers
maybe they've been redone or whatever
but like somehow the society has been
able to not destroy what its ancestors
built the things that are worth having
and they're a
lot and that like why don't we have that
and E even on a much more terrestrial
plane like why can't I have a subway
station like that why can't my children
who live in New York City ride the
subway
people I know who live in New York Ci