Kind: captions
Language: en
the following is a conversation with
Ivanka Trump businesswoman real estate
developer and former senior advisor to
the president of the United
States I've gotten to know ianka well
over the past two years we've become
good friends hitting it off right away
over our mutual love of reading
especially philosophical writings from
Marcus aurelus Joseph cble Ellen was
Victor Frankl and so on she is a truly
kind compassionate and thoughtful human
being in the past people have attacked
her in my view to get indirectly at her
dad Donald Trump as part of a dirty game
of politics and clickbait
journalism these attacks obscured many
projects and efforts often bipartisan
that she helped get done and they
obscured the truth of who she is as a
human
being through all that she never
returned the attacks with anything but
kindness and always walked walked
through the fire of it all with
grace for this and much more she is an
inspiration and I'm honored to be able
to call her a
friend oh and uh for those living in the
United States happy upcoming 4th of July
it's both an anniversary of this
country's Declaration of Independence
and an anniversary of my immigrating
here to the
US I am forever grateful grateful for
this amazing country for this amazing
life for all of you who have given the
chance to a silly kid like me from the
bottom of my heart thank you I love you
all this is the Lex Freedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Ivanka
Trump you said that ever since you were
young you wanted to be a builder that
you loved the idea of Designing
beautiful city skylines especially in
New York City I love the New York City
skyline so uh describe the origins of
that love of building you know I think
there's both an incredible
confidence and a total insecurity that
comes with youth so I remember at 15 I
would look out over the city skyline for
my bedroom window in New York and
imagine where I could contribute and and
add value in a way that you know I look
back on and and completely laugh at you
know how confident I was but I've I've
known since some of my earliest memories
it's something I've wanted to do and I
think I fundamentally I love art I love
expressions of of Beauty in so many
different
forms um with architecture there's the
tangible and I think that marriage of of
function and something that exists
Beyond yourself is very compelling I
also grew up in a family where my mother
was in the real estate business working
alongside my father my father was in the
business and I saw the joy that it
brought to them so I think I had these
natural positive associations they used
to send me as a little girl renderings
of projects they were about to embark on
with notes asking if I would hurry up
and finish school so I could come join
them so I had these positive
associations but I came from something
within myself I think that as I got
older and as I got involved in real
estate I realized that it was so
multidisciplinary you have of course the
design but you also have engineering the
brass tax of construction there's time
management there's project planning just
the duration of time to complete one of
these iconic structures it's enormous
you can contribute a decade of your life
to one project so while you have to
think big picture it means you really
have to care deeply about the details
because you you live with them so it um
it allowed me to flex a lot of areas of
Interest I love that confidence of Youth
it's funny because we're all so insecure
right in the most basic interactions but
yet our Ambitions are so unbridled in a
way that kind of like makes you blush as
an adult and I think it's fun it's fun
to like tap into that energy yeah where
everything is possible I think some of
the the greatest Builders I've ever met
kind of always have that little flame of
everything is possible still burning
that is a silly notion from youth but
it's not so silly you know everybody
tells you something is impossible but if
you continue believing that it's
possible and have that sort of naive
notion that you could do it even if it's
exceptionally difficult that naive
notion turns into some of the greatest
projects ever done 100% you know going
out to space or uh building a new
company where like everybody says it's
impossible taking on that gigantic
company and uh uh disrupting them and
revolutionizing how stuff is done or
doing huge building projects where like
you said so many people are involved in
making that happen we get conditioned
out of that feeling yeah we start to
become insecure and it's we start to
rely on the input or validation of
others and it takes us away from that
sort of core drive and um and ambition
so it's it's it's fun to to reflect on
that and also to smile right because
whether you can execute or not time will
tell but um but yeah no that was that
was very much my childhood yeah of
course it's important to also have the
humility once you get humbled and
realize that it's actually a lot of work
to build I still am amazed just looking
at big buildings big bridges that human
beings are able to get together and
build those things that's one of my my
favorite things about architecture is
just like wow it's it's a a
manifestation of the fact that humans
can collaborate and do something like
epic much bigger than themselves and
it's like a statue that represents that
and it can be there for a long time I
think in in some ways you look out at at
different city skylines and it's it's
almost like um a visual depiction of
ambition realized right like it's a
testament to somebody's dream to not
somebody a whole um Ensemble of people's
dreams and and Visions um and triumphs
and in some cases failures um if the
projects weren't properly executed so so
you look at these skylines and and and
it's a testament to that I actually
heard once architecture described as
Frozen music that that really resonated
with me I love thinking about a city
skyline as an ensemble of Dreams
realized yeah I remember the first time
I I went to um Dubai and I was watching
them dredging out and and creating these
man-made islands and I remember somebody
once saying to me there an architect um
an architect actually who collaborated
with us on on our Tower in Chicago he
said that the only thing that limited
what an architect could do in that area
was gravity and
Imagination so it's it's you know yeah
but gravity is a trick want to work
against and that's where civil engineer
is one of my favorite things I used to
build uh bridges in high school for
physics classes you have to build
Bridges and you compete on how much
weight they can carry relative to their
own weight yeah you study how good it is
by finding its breaking point and that
was a deep appreciation for me on the
miniature scale of on the large scale
what people are able to do with civil
engineering because gravity is a tricky
one to fight against it definitely is
and bridges I mean some of the iconic
designs in in our country are incredible
Bridges so if we think of uh skylines as
ensembles of Dreams realized you spent
quite a bit of time in New York what
what do you love about and what do you
think about the New York City skyline
what's a good picture we're looking here
at a few I mean looking over the water
well I think the water is an
unbelievable feature of the New York
skyline um as you see the island on
approach and often times you'll see like
in these images you'll see these towers
reflecting off of the water surface so I
think there's something very beautiful
and um and unique about that when I look
at New York I I see this unbelievable
sort of tapestry of different types of
architecture so you have the gothic form
um as represented by buildings like the
Woolworth Building or you'll have Art
Deco as represented by buildings like 40
Wall Street or the Chrysler Building or
Rockefeller Center and uh and then
you'll have these unbelievable super
modern examples or modernist examples
like lever house and serum's house so
you have all of these different styles
and I think to build in New York you're
really building the best of the best so
nobody's giving New York their sort of
second rate work um and uh especially
when a lot of those buildings were built
there was this incredible competition
happening between New York and Chicago
for kind of dominance of the sky and for
who could create the greatest Skyline
that sort of raced to the sky when
skyscrapers were first being built
starting in Chicago and and then New
York surpassing that in terms of height
at least um with with the Empire State
Building so I love sort of
contextualizing the skylines as well and
thinking back to um when different
components that are so iconic were were
added in in the context in which they
came into being I got to ask you about
this there's a pretty cool page uh that
I've been following on X architecture
and tradition and they celebrate sort of
traditional uh schools of architecture
and you mentioned Gothic the tapestry
this is in Chicago the tribun Tower in
Chicago so what do you think about that
sort of the the old and the new mix
together do you like Gothic I think it's
hard to look at something like the
Tribune Tower and not be completely in
awe I think this is an unbelievable
Building look at those buttresses and
you've got gargoyles hanging off of it
and you know this style was reminisent
of the cathedrals of Europe which was
very kind of invogue in like the 19 20s
here in here in America actually I
mentioned the Woolworth Tower before the
Woolworth Tower was actually referred to
as the Cathedral of
Commerce um and because it it also was
in that Gothic style
amazing so this was built maybe a decade
before the Tribune building but the
Tribune building to me is is it's almost
not replicable it personally really
resonates with me because one of the
first projects I ever worked on was
building Trump Chicago which was this
beautiful elegant super modern All Glass
skyscraper right across the way so it
was right across the river so I would
look out the windows um as it was under
construction or or be standing quite
literally on rebar of the building
looking out at at the Tribune and and
Incredibly inspired and now the
reflective glass of the building
reflects back not only the river but but
also um the Tribune building and other
buildings on Michigan Avenue do you like
it when the glass the reflective
properties of of the glass as part of
the architecture I think it depends like
they have super reflective glass that
sometimes doesn't work it's distracting
and um I I think it it's it's one
component of um sort of a composition
that comes together I think in this case
the glass on on Trum Chicago is very
beautiful it was uh designed by Adrien
Smith of um Skidmore Owings and merilla
a major Architecture Firm who actually
did um the Burge Khalifa in Dubai which
is I think like an awe inspiring example
of of modern architecture but glass is
tricky it's you have to get the shade
right um you know some glass has a lot
of iron in it and get super green um and
that's a choice and uh sometimes you
have more blue properties blue silver
like you see here but it's it's it's
part of the character how do you know
what it's actually going to look like
when it's done like is it possible to
imagine that because it feels like
there's so many variables I think so I
think if you have a vivid imagination if
you sit with it and then if you also go
beyond the rendering right you have to
you have to live with materials so you
don't build a 92 story building glass
curtain wall and
not deeply examine the actual curtain
wall before purchasing it so you have to
spend a lot of time with the actual
materials not just um the beautiful sort
of artistic renderings um which can be
incredibly misleading um the goal is
actually that the the end result is much
much more compelling um than than what
the AR architect or artist rendered but
often times that's very much not the
case you know sometimes also you mention
context you know sometimes I'll see
renderings of buildings I'm like wait
what about the building right to the
left of it that's blocking 80% of its
views of the you know they'll the you
know Architects they'll remove things
that are inconvenient they'll so so you
have to you have to be rooted in in
reality in reality exactly and I love
the notion of living with the with the
materials in contrast to living in the
imagined world of the drawings so the
the both both are probably important cuz
you have to
dream the thing into existence but you
also have to be rooted in like what
thing is actually going to look like in
the context of everything else 100% one
of the underlying principles of the page
I just mentioned and I hear folks
mention this a lot is that uh modern
architecture is kind of boring that it
lacks soul and beauty and you just spoke
with admiration for both modern and for
Gothic for older uh architectur so do
you think there's truth that modern
architecture is
boring I'm living in Miami currently so
I see a lot of super uninspired glass
boxes on on the waterfront but um but I
think exceptional things shouldn't be
the norm you know they're typically rare
so and I think in modern architecture
you find an abundance of amazing
examples of of super compelling and and
Innovative building designs I mean I
mentions the bur Khalifa it is a
inspiring this is an unbelievably
striking example of modern architecture
you look at some older examples the
Sydney Opera house and you know so so I
think there's unbelievable there you go
I mean it's like a needle in the
sky yeah reaching out to the Stars it's
it's huge and in the context of a city
where there's a lot of height yeah um so
it's it's unbelievable but I think one
of the things that's probably exciting
me the most about architecture right now
is the Innovation that's happening
within it you know there's example of
robotic fabrication there's 3D printing
um your friend and and who you
introduced me to not too long ago ner
oxman which she's doing at the
intersection of biology and technology
and thinking about how to create more
sustainable development practices quite
literally trying to create materials
that will biodegrade back into the Earth
I think there's something really cool
happening now with the rediscovery of
ancient building techniques so you have
self-healing concrete that was used by
the Romans an art and a practice of
using volcanic ash and lime that's now
being rediscovered and is more critical
than ever as we think about how much of
our infrastructure relies on concrete
and how much of that is failing on the
most basic level so I think actually
it's a really really exciting time um
for innovation in architecture and I
think there are some incredible examples
of of of modern design that are are
really exciting but generally I think
Roosevelt said that comparison is the
thief of Joy so it's hard you know you
look at the Tribune building you look at
some of these iconic structures one of
um the buildings I'm most proud to have
worked on was the historic old post
office building in Washington DC you
look at a building like that and it
feels like it has no equal also there's
a just psychological element where
people tend to want to complain about
the new and celebrate the old
oh it's like the history of time so it's
just people are always skeptical and
concerned about change yeah and it's
true that there's a lot of stuff that's
new that's not good it's not going to
last it's not going to stand the test of
time but some things will and there's uh
just like in modern art there's and
modern music there's going to be artists
that uh stand the test of time and we'll
later look back and celebrate them those
were the good times yeah when you just
step back what do you love about
architecture is it the beauty is it the
function I'm most emotionally drawn
obviously to the beauty
but I think as somebody who's built
things I really believe that the form
has to follow the function like there's
nothing uglier than a space that is ill
conceived that that you know otherwise
it's it's it's
decoration and I think that after sort
of that initial reaction to seeing
something
that's aesthetically really pleasing to
me when I when I look at a um when I
look at a building or or a
project I love sort of thinking about
how it's being used so
having been able to build so many things
and um in my career and and worked on so
many incredible projects I mean it's
really really rewarding after the fact
to have somebody come up to you and and
tell you that they got engaged in the
lobby of your building or they got
married in the ballroom and um and share
with you some of those experiences so so
to me that's equally as beautiful um the
the use cases for for these unbelievable
projects but but I think I think it's
all of it I I
love I love that you've got the
construction and you've got the design
and you've got then the interior design
and you've got the financing elements
the marketing elements and it's all
wrapped up in um in this one effort so
so to me it's exciting to sort of flex
in all those different ways yeah like
you says it's dreams realized hard work
real
realized um I mean probably on the
bridge side is why I love the function
in terms of function being primary you
just think of like the millions oh my
gosh
Bridges uh go go down you
had look at that yeah this is Devil's
Bridge in Germany yeah I wouldn't say
it's like the most practical
to but look how beautiful that is yeah
so this is probably well we don't know
we need to inter some people whether the
function holds up but in terms of beauty
and then like like what we're talking
about using the water for the reflection
and the shape that creates I mean
there's an Elegance to the shape of a of
a bridge see it's interesting that they
call it Devil's Bridge because to me
this is very ethereal you know I think
about the ring the circle um life
there's nothing about this that makes me
feel maybe they're just being
ironic in the name that functions really
flaw yeah exactly maybe no but he's ever
successfully crossed crossed the bridge
yeah but I mean to me there's just
iconic I love looking at Bridges because
because of the function it's the
Brooklyn Bridge or the Golden Gate
Bridge I mean those are probably my
favorites in the United States just in a
city to be able to look out and see the
skyline combined with the suspension
bridge and thinking of all the millions
of cars that pass like the busyness like
us humans get getting together and going
to work building cool stuff and just the
Bridge kind of represents the turmoil
and the busyness of a city as it creates
it's cool and the connectivity as well
yeah the network of roads all come
together so the there the bridge is the
ultimate combination of function and and
Beauty yeah I remember when I was first
learning about bridges studying the
cable stay um versus the suspension
bridge and I mean you actually built
many replicas so I'm sure you'll have a
point of view on this but
they really are um so beautiful and you
mentioned the Brooklyn Bridge but
growing up in New York that was as much
a part of the architectural story and
tapestry of that Skyline as any building
that's that's seen in it so what in
general is your philosophy philosophy of
design and building and architecture
well some of the most recent projects I
I worked on prior to government service
were the Old Post Office building and
almost simultaneously Trump Dalal in
Miami so these were both two just
massive undertakings both redevelopments
which in a lot of cases having worked on
groundup construction Redevelopment
projects
are in a lot of ways much more
complicated because you have
existing attributes but also a lot of
limitations you have to work within
especially when you're repurposing a use
so so this um the post office building
on Pennsylvania Avenue was so beautiful
it's
unbelievable so this was a Romanesque
Revival building um built in the 1890s
on America's Main Street to symbolize
American
Grandeur and um at the time there were
post office being built in in the style
across the country but this being really
the defining one still to this day the
tallest habitable structure in
Washington um the tallest structure
being the monument the nation's only
vertical Park which is that clock tower
but you've got these thick Granite walls
those carved Granite
turrets um just just an unbelievable
building you've got this massive um
Atrium that that runs through the whole
um center of it that is is topped with
glass so so having the
opportunity to to spearhead a project
like that was was so exciting and
actually it was my first renovation
project so I I came to it with a
tremendous amount of energy Vigor and
and humility um about how to do it
properly ensuring I had all the right
people we had countless Federal and
local government agencies that would
oversee every single decision we made
but in advance of even having the
opportunity to do it there was a close
to
2year request for proposal like a
process that was put out by um the
general Services Administration so it's
this really arduous government
procurement
process that we were competing against
so many different people for the
opportunity um which a lot of people
said it was a gigantic waste of time but
I looked at that and I think so did a
lot of the other biders and say it's
worth trying to put the best Vision
forward so you fell in love with this
project I fell in love yeah so what is
there some interesting details about
what it takes to do renovation is there
about some some of the challenges es or
opportunities cuz you you want to
maintain the beauty of the old yeah and
now like upgrade the functionality I
guess and maybe modernize some aspects
of it without destroying what made the
the building magical in the first place
so I think the greatest asset was
already there m the exterior of the
building which we
meticulously restored and any addition
into it had to be done sort of very
gently um in terms of any signage
additions and um the interior spaces
were completely dilapitated it had been
in a post office then we was used for a
really rundown food court and government
office spaces it was actually losing $6
million a year um when when we got um
the concession to to build it and and
when we we won and and became one of I
think a great example of public private
Partnerships working together but the I
think the biggest challenge in having
such a radical use conversion is just
how you lay it out so the amount of time
I would get on that
Accel twice a week um three times a week
to spend day trips down in Washington
and we would walk every single inch of
the building laying out the floor plans
debating over the configuration of a
room the almost 300 rooms and there were
almost 300 layouts so nothing could be
repeated uh whereas when you have when
you're building from scratch you tend
you know you have a box and you decide
where you want to add you know potential
elements and um and you kind of can
stack the floor plan all the way up but
when you're working within a building
like this every single room was
different you see the setback so the
setback then required you to move the
pluming so there was no um it was really
a labor of love and to do something like
this and and that's why I think
renovation we had it with deral as well
it was 700 rooms over um over 650 Acres
of of property and so every single unit
was was very different and complicated
not not as complicated in some ways the
scale of it was so massive but not as
complicated as the old post office but
it requ requ ired a level of of
precision and I think in real estate you
have a lot of people who design on plan
um and a lot of people who are in the
business of sort of acquiring and
flipping so it's more financial
engineering than it is
building and they don't spend the time
sort of sweating these details that make
something great and make something
functional and you feel it in the end
result um but I I mean Blood Sweat tears
years of my life for for those projects
and and it was worth it I I enjoyed
almost I enjoyed almost every minute of
it so to you it's not about the flipping
to you it's about the art of the and the
function of the thing that you're
creating 100% what's design on plan I'm
learning you things today um when when
proposals are put forth by an architect
and and really just the plan is accepted
without and in the case of a renovation
like if you're not walking those rooms
the number of times a beautifully laid
out room was on a blueprint and then I'd
go to Washington and I'd walk that floor
and I'd realize that there was a column
that ran right up through the middle of
the space where you know the bed was
supposed to be or the toilet was
supposed to be or um or the shower so
there's a lot of things that are missed
um when you do
something conceptually without sort of
rooting it and um in the actual
structure and that's why I think even
you know with groundup construction as
well people who aren't constantly on
their job sites constantly walking the
projects there's just a lot that's
there's a lot that's missed I mean
there's a wisdom to the the idea that we
talked about before live with the
materials and walking the construction
site walk in the rooms I mean that's
what you hear from people like Steve
Jobs like Elon that's why you live in
the factory floor that's why you
constantly obsess about the details the
actual not of the the plans but the
physical reality of the product I mean
the the insanity of Steve Jobs and
Johnny I working together on like making
it perfect making the iPhone the early
designs prototypes making that perfect
like what it actually feels like in the
hand you have to be there like as close
to the metal as possible to truly
understand and you have to love it in
order to do that right shouldn't be
about the how much he's going to sell
for all that kind of stuff you have to
love the art because for the most part
you can probably get 90 maybe even 95%
of the end result unless something has
terribly gone arai by by not caring with
that level
of almost like maniacal Precision but
you'll notice that 10% for the rest of
your life you know so um I
think I think that extra effort that
that passion I think that's what
separates good from great if we go back
to that young ianka the uh the
confidence of Youth and uh if you could
talk about your mom she had a big
influence on you you told me she was an
adventurer yeah uh Olympic skier and a
businesswoman uh what did you learn
about life from your
mother so much um she passed away two
years ago now and and um she was a
remarkable remarkable woman she was a
Trailblazer in so many different ways um
as an athlete and growing up in
communist Czechoslovakia as um a fashion
Mogul as a real estate executive and and
Builder um just this allaround
trailblazing businesswoman's I also
learned from her you know aside from
from that
element how to really enjoy life you I
look back and some of my happiest
memories of her
are in the ocean you know just lying on
her back um looking up at the Sun and
just so so in the moment or dancing she
loved to dance so she um she really
taught me a lot about living life to its
fullest and um and she had so much
courage so much conviction so much
energy um and a complete comfort with
who she was what do you think about that
I mean Olympic Athlete the trade-off
between like ambition and just wanting
to do big things and pursuing that and
giving your all to that and being able
to relax and just throw your arms back
and enjoy the mo every moment of life
but like that tradeoff yeah what do you
think about that
tradeoff I think
because she was this unbelievable
formidable athlete and because of the
dis
she had as a child I think it made her
value those moments more as an adult I
think she was a great balance of the two
that we all hope to find and she was
able to find both incredibly serious and
formidable I remember as a little girl I
used to literally trapes behind her um
at the Plaza hotel which um she over
saww and actually kind of was her old
post office it was this unbelievable
Historic Hotel and in New York City and
I'd follow her around at construction
meetings and on job sites and um there
she is dancing
see that's funny that that's the picture
you pull up I'm sorry the two you just
look great in that picture that's great
she had such a a joy to her and she was
so unabashed and her perspective and her
opinions I mean you know she made my
father look reserved so
whatever she was feeling what she was
just very expressive um and and a lot of
fun to be around so she uh as you
mentioned uh grew up during the the
Prague spring in uh 1968 and that had a
big impact on human history I mean my my
family came from the Soviet Union and
then you know the 20th century the story
of the 20th century is a lot of Eastern
Europe uh the Soviet Union tried uh the
ideas of um of Communism and it turned
out that a lot of those ideas resulted
into a lot of suffering so why do you
think the Communist ideology failed I
think
fundamentally as people we desire
Freedom we want
agency you know and my mom was like a
lot of other people who grew up in in
similar situations where she didn't like
to talk about it that often so one of my
real regrets is that I didn't push her
harder you know so but I think back to
the conversations we did have and and I
try to imagine what it's like she was at
Charles University in in in Prague which
was really like a focal point of um of
the reforms that were ushered in during
the Prague spring and the liberalization
agenda that was happening the dance
halls were opening the student activists
and and she was attending University
there right at that same time so the the
contrast to this feeling
of freedom and progress and
liberalization in the spring and then
it's so quickly being crushed in the
fall of that same year when the Warsaw
pack countries and uh and the Soviet
Union rolled in to to put down and and
ultimately roll back all those
reforms so for her to have lived through
that you know she didn't come to North
America until she was uh 23 or 24 so
that was her life as um as as a young
girl she was on the junior National ski
team for Czechoslovakia my my
grandfather used to train her they used
to put the skis on her back and walk up
the mountain um in Czechoslovakia
because there were no there were no ski
lifs she actually made me do that when I
was a child um just to to let me know uh
what her experience had been if I
complained that it was cold out she's
like well you didn't have to walk up the
mountain you'd be you'd be plenty warm
if you had carried the skis up on your
back and uh up the last run I feel like
they made people tougher back then like
my my grandma you mentioned it's funny
they they go through some of the darkest
things that a human being can go through
and they don't talk about it and they
have a general positive outlook on life
like that's deeply rooted in the
knowledge of what life could be yeah
like how bad it could get my grandma
survived uh hore in Ukraine which is was
a mass
starvation brought on by the
collectivist policies of the Stalin
regime and then she survived the Nazi
occupation of Ukraine never talked about
it probably went through extremely dark
extremely difficult times and then just
always had a positive outl look on life
and also made me do very difficult
physical activity like just you IM just
to to Humble you like kids these days
are soft kind of energy which I'm deeply
deeply grateful for on all fronts
including just having hardship and uh
including just physical hardship flung
at me I think that's really important
you wonder how much of of who they were
was a reaction to their experience you
know which you have naturally had that
sort of forward-looking
grateful optimist IC orientation or was
it a reaction to to her childhood I
think about that you know I look at this
picture of my mom and she was
unabashedly herself you know she loved
flamboyance and Glamour and and in some
ways I think it probably was a direct
reaction to this very austere controlled
childhood you know this was one
expression of it I think her you know
how she dressed and how she presented I
I think her entrepreneurial spirit and
love of capitalism and all things
American was was another manifestation
of it and one that I grew up with I
remember the story she used to tell me
um about when she was uh 14 and she was
going to neighboring countries and you
know as an athlete you were given
additional freedoms um that that you
wouldn't otherwise be afforded in um in
in these societies under under communist
rules so she was able to travel where
most of her friends never would be able
to leave Czechoslovakia and she would
come back from all of these trips and
the first place where she'd do ski races
in Austria and elsewhere and the first
thing she had to do was check in at the
local police and she'd sit down and she
had enough wisdom at 14 to know that she
couldn't appear to be lying by not being
impressed by what she saw and the fact
that you could get an orange in the
window
but she couldn't be too excited by it
that she'd become a Flight Risk so give
enough details boy that you're
believable but not so many that you're
not trusted and imagine that as a
14-year-old you know that experience and
and having to navigate the world that
way and um she told me that eventually
all
those local police officers they came to
love her because one of the things she
do is smuggle B stuff back from these
countries and give it to them to give
their wives perfume and stockings and so
she figured out the system pretty
quickly um but but it's it's a very
different experience from what I was
navigating and the pressures and
challenges me as a 14-year-old was was
dealing with so so I have so much
respect and and admiration for her yeah
hardship clarifies what's important in
life uh you I've talked about man search
for meaning that book
uh having kind of an ultimate hardship
clarifies that uh finding joy in life is
not about the environment it's about
your outlook on that environment and
there's Beauty to be found in any
situation yeah and also in that
particular situation the when everything
is taken from you the thing you start to
think about is uh the people you love so
in the case of man search for meaning
Victor Franco thinking about his his
wife and how much he loves her and that
love was the flame that the the the
warmth that kept him excited the fun
thing to think about when everything
else is gone so we sometimes forget that
with the business of life you get all
this fun stuff we're talking about like
building and being a creative force in
the world at the end of the day what
matters is just like the other humans in
your life the people you love it's the
simple stuff you know Victor Frankle is
is somebody I mean his that book and um
just his philosophy in general is is um
is so inspiring to me but I think so
many people they say they want happiness
but they want conditional happiness you
know when this and this a thing happens
or under these circumstances then I'll
be happy and I think what he showed is
that we can sort of cultivate these
virtues within ourselves regardless of
the situation we find ourselves in
and in some ways I think the the meaning
of life is the search for meaning in
life it's the relationships we have and
we form it's the experience we have it's
how we deal with the suffering that life
inevitably presents to us and uh and
Victor Frankle does an amazing job
highlighting that under the
most horrific circumstances and I think
it's it's just super inspiring to me he
also shows that you can get so much from
just like small
Joys like getting a little more soup
today than you did yesterday I mean it's
like it's the little stuff if you allow
yourself to love the little stuff of
life it's all around you it's all there
so you don't need to like have these
ambitious goals and the comparison being
a thief of joy that kind of stuff just
like it's all around us the ability to
eat like when I when I was in the
jungle and I got severely dehydrated
because there's no water you run out of
water real quick and I mean the joy I
felt when I got the drink like I didn't
care about anything else speaking of
things that matter in life I I I would
start to fantasize about water and that
was bringing me
joy you can tap into this feeling at any
time exactly I was just tapping in just
to stay positive go your bathroom turn
on the sink and watch the water for for
sure I mean people really I it's good to
have stuff taken away for a time that's
why struggle is good to make you
appreciate to have a deep gratitud for
when you have it and water and food is a
big one but water is the biggest one I I
wouldn't recommend it necessarily to get
severely dehydrated to appreciate water
but maybe every time you take a sip of
water you can have that kind of
gratitude there's a a prayer in Judaism
you're supposed to say every morning
which is
basically thanking God for your body
working um it's it's something you know
so basic but it's when it doesn't that
that we're grateful so just reminding
ourselves every day the basic things of
of a functional body of of of our health
of access to to water which um so many
millions of people around the world do
not have
reliably is um very clarifying and super
important yeah health is a gift water is
a gift yeah is there a memory with your
mom that had a defining effect on your
uh
life I have these vignettes in my mind
you know seeing her in action in
different
capacities a lot of times
um in the context of things that I would
later go on to do myself so you I would
go every day almost every day after
school and I'd go to The Plaza Hotel and
I'd follow her around as she'd walk the
hallways and just observe her and she
was So impossibly Glamorous she was
doing everything and you know four and
half inch heels with this bant and so it
was almost it was almost like an it's
almost like an inaccessible
visual but I think for me when I saw her
experience the most Joy tended to be by
the Sea um almost always not not a pool
and I think I get this from her I pools
they're fine um I love the ocean I I
love salt water I love the way it makes
me feel and um and I think I got that
from her so we would we would just swim
together all all the time and and you
know it's it's a lot of what I love
about Miami actually being being so
close to the ocean I find it to be super
cathartic but a lot of my memories of my
mom seeing her really like just in her
Bliss um is is floating around in in in
a body of salt water is there also some
aspect to her being an example of
somebody that could be sort of beautiful
and feminine but at the same time uh
powerful a successful
businesswoman that showed that is
possible to do that yeah I think she
really was a Trailblazer it's not
uncommon in in real estate for there to
be multiple generations of uh of people
and so on on job sites I it was not
unusual for me to run into somebody
whose grandfather had worked with my
grandfather in Brooklyn or queens or
whose father had
um worked with my mother and and they'd
always tell me these stories about her
you know rolling in and they'd hear the
heels
first and and a lot of times the story
would be like oh gosh like you know
really it's two days after Christmas
like we thought we'd get a reprieve um
but she was uh she was very
exacting um you know so I have this
visual in my mind of her you know
walking on rebar you know on the balls
of her feet and these 4in shields I'm
assuming she actually carried Flats with
but but I don't
know that's not the visual I have but
she was um I loved the fact that she so
embodied femininity and um and Glamour
and um and was so comfortable
being tough and ambitious and determined
and um and this unbelievable
businesswoman and entrepreneur at at a
time when she was very much alone even
you know for for me and in the
development world and so many of the
different businesses that I've been in
there really aren't women outside of of
sales and of marketing you don't see as
many women in the development space in
the construction space even in the
architecture um and and design
space um maybe outside of interior
design so and she was you know decades
ahead of me so it was I love hearing
these stories I love I love hearing
somebody who's my here tell me about
their grandfather and their father and
their experience with with one of my
parents it's it's amazing and she did it
all in for in heels and she did it she
used to say there's nothing that I can't
do better in heels that's a good that
would be that would be your exact thing
and when I complain about wearing
something you know it was like the early
90s everything was also like
uncomfortable these fabrics and
materials and and I was I would like go
back and forth between being super girly
and a total tomboy um but uh but she'd
you know dress me up in in these things
and I'd be complaining about it and she'
say ianka pain for beauty which I happen
to totally disagree with because I think
there's nothing worse than being
uncomfortable so I haven't accepted or
internalized all of um this this wisdom
so to speak but um but but it was just
funny you know she had she had a very
specific point of view mhm this and full
good lines paint for
beauty it's it's funny because I mean
just even in fashion if something's
uncomfortable to me there's nothing that
looks worse than when you see somebody
like tottering around and like their
heels hurt them so they're kind of
walking oddly um and you know it doesn't
they're not embodying their confidence
in that regard so I'm like kind of the
opposite I start with well I want to be
comfortable um and that helps me be
confident and um and in command a
foundation for fashion for you is
comfort and on top of that you build and
it's Comfort like dowy you know there's
that level of comfort but um functional
Comfort but I think you have to for me I
want to feel confident and you don't
feel confident when you're like pulling
at a garment or um you know hobbling on
heels that don't fit you properly um and
she was never doing those things either
so I don't know how she was wearing
stuff like that that's like a 40 lb be
of dress and I know this because I have
it and I wore it recently and
I mean I got to work out walking to the
elevator like this is a heavy dress and
you know it was worth it it was great
she's making it look easy though but she
uh she makes it look very very easy so
do you uh miss her I'm so
much it's unbelievable how dislocating
the loss of a of a parent is and
um her mother lives with me still my
grandmother who helped raise us so
that's very
special and I can ask her some of the
questions that I would have sorry I
wanted to ask my own mom but it's
hard it was beautiful to see I've gotten
a chance to spend time with your family
to see so many generations together at
the table and there's so much history
there no she's 97 and um until uh she
was around 94 she lived completely on
her own no help no anything no support
and um and now she requires really sort
of 24-hour care and I I feel super
grateful that I'm able to give her that
because that's what she did for me it's
amazing for me to have my children be
able to grow up and and know her stories
know her
recipes um check dumplings and and
goulash um and
kit Lita and all the other things she
used to make me in my childhood but but
she really she was a major she was a
major force in my life my grandmother
she um you know my mom was working so
you know my grandmother was the person
who was always home every day when I
came back from school and um I remember
I used to shower and it would almost be
like comical I I feel like in my memory
and there is no washing machine I've
seen on the planet that can actually do
this but in my memory I'd go to shower
you know and I'd drop something on the
bed and I'd come back into the room
after my shower and it was like folded
pressed it was all my grandmother she
like running after me um taking care of
me um and uh so it's nice to be able to
do that for
her yeah I got from her reading my
grandmother she would she devoured books
like devoured books she loved the more
Sensational ones so yeah so like some
these like romance novels I would pick
them up the covers but she could tell
you she could look at like any Royal
lineage across Europe and tell you all
the Mistresses all all the drama all the
drama she loved it um but her face was
always buried in a book you know my
grandfather dto he was the athlete um he
was um he swam professionally for or you
know on the national team for
Czechoslovakia and he helped train my
mom as I was saying before and skiing so
he was a great athlete and she was at
home and she would read and cook and um
and so that's that's something I I
remember a lot from my childhood and she
would always say like I got I got
reading from
her I mean like speaking of drama I had
uh my English teacher in high school
recommended a book for me by DH Lawrence
it's supposed to be a classic she's like
this is a classic you should read it's
called Lady Shadow a lover and so I've
read a lot of Classics but that one is
straight up like a romance novel about a
wife who like is cheating with a
gardener and I remember reading this
like what like in retrospect I
understand why it's a classic because it
was so scandalous to talk about sex in a
book a 100 years ago whatever in
retrospect do you know why she
recommended it I have no I think maybe
just sending a signal hey you need to
get out more or something I don't
know maybe maybe she was seeking to
inspire you left yeah exactly um
anyway I I mean I love that kind of
stuff too but I love I love all the
classics and they get they get there's a
lot of drama human nature drama is part
of it so what about your dad growing up
what did you learn about life from your
father I think my father's sense of
humor is sometimes
underappreciated uh so he had an amazing
and has an amazing sense of humor he
loved music I I think my my mom loved
music as well but
you know my father always used to say
that in another life he would have been
a Broadway musical producer which is
hilarious to think about but he loves he
loves music I that is funny to think
about right he does now he DJs at marago
so people get a sense of you know he
loves Andrew Lloyd Weber and all of it
pavara Elton John I mean these were the
same songs on repeat my whole childhood
so I know the playlist probably Sinatra
and all that love Sinatra loves Elvis
you know a lot of a lot of the greats so
I think I got a a little bit of my love
from music from from him but my mom
shared that um as
well I think um one of the things you
know in in in looking back that I think
I inherited for my father as well is
this sort of
um interest or understanding of the
importance of asking question questions
and specifically questions of the right
people and I saw this a lot on on job
sites so I remember uh with the old post
office building there was this massive
glass topped Atrium so Heating and
Cooling the structure was like a
Herculean lift um we had the mechanical
engineers provide their thoughts on how
we could do it efficiently and um and so
that the temperature never varied and it
was enormously expensive um uh as an as
an undertaking and I remember one of his
first times on on the site because you
know he had really empowered me um with
this project and he trusted me to to
execute and to also you know rope him in
when I needed it but one of the first
time he visits we're walking the hallway
and we're talking about how expensive
this cooling system would be and heating
system would be and he starts stopping
and he's asking duct workers as as we
walk talk what they think of the system
that the mechanical engineers designed
first few fine you know not great
answers the third guy goes sir if you
want me to be honest with you it's
obscenely
overdesigned in the circumstance of a
1,000-year storm you will have the exact
P perfect temperature if there's a
massive Blizzard or if it's unbearably
hot but 99.9% of the time you'll never
need it and um
and so I think it's just an enormous
waste of
money and so we kept asking that guy
questions and we ended up overhauling
the design pretty well into the process
of the whole system saving a lot of
money creating a great system that's
super functional and um so I learned a
lot and that's just one example of
countless that one really sticks out of
my head because I'm like oh my gosh
we're redesigning the whole system you
know we were actively under construction
so it was um but I see him do that on a
lot of different issues he he would ask
people on the work level what their
thoughts were ideas Concepts
designs and um there was almost like a
Socratic sort
of first principles type of way he he
questioned people trying to get down to
sort of trying to reduce complex things
to something really fundamental and and
and simple so I I I try to do that
myself to the to the best I can and I
think it's something I very much learned
from him yeah I've seen great Engineers
great leaders do just that you see you
on do that a lot which is basically ask
questions uh to push simplification can
we do this simpler and like why the
basic question is like why are we doing
it this way can this be done simpler
yeah and not taking as an answer that
this is how we've always done it sort of
not not allowing yourself like it
doesn't matter that's how we always done
it what is the right way to do it and
what is and usually the simpler it is
the more correct the way yeah has to do
with cost has to do with Simplicity of
uh of production manufacturer but
usually simple is best and it's often
times not the architect the engineers
it's you know in elon's case probably
the line worker who sees things yes more
clearly so I think making sure it's not
just that you're asking good questions
you're asking the right people those
same good questions that's why like uh a
lot of the Elon companies are really
flat in terms of uh organizational
design where the the any anybody on the
factory floor can talk directly to Elon
there's no there's not there's not this
managerial class this hierarchy where to
travel up and down the hierarchy which
large companies often construct this
hierarchy of managers where no one
manager if you ask them the question of
like what have you done this week the
answer is like it's really hard to come
up with usually it's going to be a bunch
of paperwork yeah uh so like nobody
knows what they actually do so when it's
flat you can actually get as quickly as
possible when problems arise you you can
you can solve those problems as quickly
as possible and also you have a direct
rapid iterative process where you're
making things simpler making them more
efficient and constantly improving so
yeah it's it's interesting when when
large I me you see this in government a
lot of people get together a hierarchy
is developed and that
somehow sometimes it's good but very
often just slows things down and you see
great companies great great companies
Apple Google
meta they have to fight against that
bureaucracy that builds the slowness
that large organizations have and to
still be a big organization and act like
a startup
is the Big Challenge it's super
difficult to deconstruct that as well
once it's in place right it's it's
circumventing layers and asking
questions probing questions of of people
on the ground level um is a huge
challenge to the authority of the
hierarchy um and there's tremendous
amount of resistance to it so it's how
do you grow something in in the case of
a company in terms of a culture that can
scale
um but doesn't lose its connection to um
to sort of real and meaningful feedback
it's it's not not easy I've uh had a lot
of conversations with uh Jim Keller
who's this legendary engineer and leader
and he he has talked about like you
often have to kind of be a little bit of
an in the room uh not in a mean
way but like it's uncomfortable yeah
like a lot of these questions they're
uncomfortable they break the kind of
General politeness and civility that
people have in communication when you
get a meeting like nobody wants to be
like uh can we do it way different
everyone wants just just like this lunch
is coming up you know I have I have this
trip planned on the weekend with the
family everyone just wants Comfort they
get the when humans get together they
kind of gravitate towards Comfort nobody
wants that one person that comes in and
says hey can we like do this way better
and way different and everything we've
gotten comfortable with throw it out not
only do they not want that but the one
person who comes in and does that puts a
massive Target on their back and is
ultimately seen as as a threat I mean
nobody really gets fired for maintaining
the status quo right even if things go
poorly MH it's the way it was always
done yeah humans are fascinating uh but
in order to actually do great big
projects yeah to to reach for the stars
you have to have those people you have
to you have you have to constantly
disrupt and have those uncomfortable
conversations and really have that first
principles type of orientation
especially in those large bureaucratic
contexts so amongst many other things
you created a fashion
brand what was that
about what was the origin of
that I always loved fashion um as a form
of self-expression as a means to to
communicate either a truth or an
illusion depending on what kind of mood
you were in but um this like sort of
second body if you will so I loved
fashion and look I mean my mother was um
a big part of the reason I did but I
never thought I would go into fashion in
fact I was graduating from Warden um it
was the day of my graduation and Anna
winter calls me up and um and offered me
a job at Vogue which is a dream in so
many ways but I was so focused I I
wanted to go into real estate and I
wanted to build buildings and um and I
and I told her that so I I really
thought that that was going to be the
path I was taking and then very
organically fashion you know it was part
of my life but it came it came into my
life in a in a more professional
capacity um by talking with my first of
of many different partners that I had in
the fashion space about he he actually
had shed me a building um to buy his
family had some real estate holdings and
and I passed on on the real estate deal
but we forged a friendship and we
started talking about how in the space
that he was in Fine Jewelry there was
this lack of product and brands that
were positioned for self- purchasing
females so everything was about you know
the man buying the Christmas gift the
man buying the engagement ring the
stores felt like that they were tailored
towards the male aesthetic the marketing
felt like that and and what about the
woman who had a salary and was really
excited to buy herself a great pair of
earrings or um or had just received a
great bonus and and was going to use it
to to treat herself so we thought there
was a void in the marketplace and um and
that was the first category I launched
ianka Trump find jewelry and we just
caught lightning in a bottle it was
really quickly after that I met my
partner had founded Nine West shoes
really capable partner and we launched
um a shoe collection which which took
off and uh did enormously well and then
a clothing collection and Handbags and
sunglasses and fragrance so so we caught
a moment and um and we found a
positioning for this for the self-
purchasing multi-dimensional woman and
we made dressing for work aspiration
at the time we launched if you wanted to
buy something for an office context like
the brands that existed were the
opposite of exciting like nobody was you
know taking pictures of like what they
were wearing to work and um and and
posting it on lines with some of these
classic Legacy Brands really it felt
very much like it was designed by a team
of men for what a woman would want to
wear to the office so we started
creating this clothing that was feminine
that was beautiful that was versatile
that would take a woman from uh the
boardroom to an after school soccer game
to um a date night with a boyfriend to
uh to a walk in the park with her
husband like all the the different ways
women live their lives and creating a
wardrobe for that woman who works at
every aspect of their life not just sort
of the siloed professional part and and
it was it was really compelling we
started creating great brand content and
we had incredible um contributors like
Adam Grant who was um who was blogging
for us at the time and and creating
aspirational content for for working
women it was actually kind of a funny
story but I now had probably close to 11
different product categories and we were
growing like
wildfire and I started to think about
what would be a compelling way to sort
of create interesting content for the
people who are buying these um these
different C categories and and we came
up with a website called women who work
and I went to a marketing agency you
know one of the fancy firms in New York
and I said you know we want to create a
brand campaign around this
multi-dimensional woman who works and um
and what do you think like can you help
us and they come back and they say you
know we don't like the word work we
think it should be women who
do and I just start laughing because I'm
like women who do and the fact that they
couldn't conceive it being sort of
exciting and aspirational and
interesting um to sort of lean into to
working at at all aspects of Our Lives
was just fascinating to me but showed
that that was part of the problem and
and I think that's why ultimately I mean
when the business grew to be hundreds of
millions of dollars in in sales we were
distributed at all the best retailers
across the country from you know Neiman
Marcus to Sachs to um to Bloomingdales
and Beyond and and I think we it really
resonated with people in an amazing way
and probably not dissimilar to how
I have this incredible experience every
time somebody comes up to me and tells
me that um that they were married in a
space that I had painstakingly designed
I have that experience now with with my
fashion company the number of women who
will come up tell me that they they
loved my shoes or they loved the
Handbags and I've had women show me
their engagement rings they got engaged
with us and um it's really rewarding
it's really beautiful yeah when I was
saying out with you in Miami the number
of women they came up to you say they
love the the clothing they love the
shoes is awesome all all these years
later all these years later what does it
take to make a shoe where somebody would
come up to you years later and just be
just full of love for this thing you've
created what what's that mean like what
does it take to do that
well I still wear the shoes so I mean
that's a good starting point right to
create a thing that you want to wear I
feel like the the product I think first
and foremost you have to have the the
right partner so shoe building a shoe if
you talk to a great shoe designer it's
like it's architecture like making a
heel that's 4 in that feels good to walk
in for eight hours a day that is an
engineering feet and uh so I found great
Partners in everything that I did my my
shoe partner um had founded 9 West so he
really knew what went into making a shoe
wearable and comfortable and then you
overlay that with great design and uh
and we also created this really
comfortable beautifully designed super
feminine um product offering that was
also affordably priced so I think it was
like the trifecta of those of those
three things that that made that I think
it made it stand out for so many people
can you speak to I don't know if it's Al
to articulate but can you speak to the
process you go through from idea to the
final thing like what you go through to
bring an idea to life so not being a
designer and this is true in real estate
as well I was never the architect so I
didn't necessarily have the pen and in
in fashion the same I was kind of like a
conductor I was I knew what I liked and
didn't like and I think that's really
important and that became honed for me
over time so I would have to sit a lot
longer with something earlier on than
later when I had more refined my
aesthetic point of view and so I think
first of all you have to have a pretty
strong sense of um of what resonates
with you and and then as in the case of
of my fashion business as it grew and
became um quite a large business and I
had so many different categories
everything had to work together so I had
individual partners for each category
but if we were selling at nean Marcus we
couldn't have a pair of shoes that
didn't relate to a dress that didn't
relate to a pair of sunglasses and hand
bags all on the same floor so you know
in the beginning it was much more
collaborative um as time passed I I
really sort of took the point on
deciding and this is the aesthetic for
the season these are the colors we're
going to use these are fabrics and then
working with our partners on the
execution of that but I I needed to
create an overlay that allowed for
cohesion as the collection grew and and
that was actually really fun for me
because I was a little different you
know I was typically initially
responding to things that were put in
front of me and towards the end I was it
was my partners who were responding to
the things that myself and my team but
it's still it's you know I would always
I always wanted to bring the best talent
in so I was I was hiring great designers
and print makers and um and copywriters
and so I had
this you know almost like that conductor
analogy I had this incredible group of
in this case women assembled who who had
very strong points of view um themselves
and and it created an a great team so
yeah I mean great team is really sort of
essential it's it's it's the essential
thing behind any successful story but
there's this thing of taste which is
really interesting cuz it's hard to kind
of articulate what it takes but
basically knowing a versus B what looks
good or without AB comparison to say
like if we did if we change this
part that would make it better that sort
of designer taste it's hard
to make explicit what that is but the
great designers like have that taste
like this is going to look good and it's
not actually again the Steve Jobs thing
is not the opinion like you can't uh
pull people and ask them what looks
better it's you you have to have the
vision of that yeah and as you said you
also have to develop eventually the
confidence that your taste is is good
such that you can like curate you can
direct teams you can argue that no no no
this is right even when there's several
people that say this doesn't make any
sense if you have that Vision have the
confidence this will look good that's
how you come up with great designs it's
it's a mix mixture of great taste as you
develop over time and the
confidence and and that's a really hard
thing especially and I think one of the
things I love most about all of these
creative Pursuits is that ability to to
work with the best people right now I'm
um working with my husband we have this
1400 acre island in the Mediterranean
and we're building bringing in the best
Architects and the Best Brands and but
to have a point of view
and to challenge people who are such
artists respectfully um but not to be
afraid to to ask questions it takes a
lot of confidence to do that um and and
it's hard so these are actually just
internal early renderings so we're in
the process of doing the master planning
now but this is beautiful I mean it's
early Vision yeah it's going to be
extraordinary Aman's going to operate
the hotel for us and there are going to
be Villas and uh we we have Carbone
who's going to be doing the food and
beverage and but it's it's amazing to
bring together all of this talent and
for me to be able to play around and
flex the the real estate muscles again
and and have some fun with it is real
estate the design the the art how hard
is it to bring something like that to
life CU that's like that looks surreal
out of this
world well especially on an island it's
it's challenging meaning the logistics
and even getting the building materials
to an island or no joke but um but we
will execute on it so and it it may not
be this this is sort of as I said early
conceptual drawings but it gives a sense
of sort of wanting to honor the
topography that exists and um you know
this is obviously very modern but um
making it feel right in terms of the
context of um of the vegetation and uh
and the trrain that exists is and not
just have you know a beautiful glass box
obvious you want glass you want to look
out and see that gorgeous blue ocean but
um but how do you do that in a way that
doesn't feel generic and isn't a
squandered opportunity to create
something new yeah and it's integrated
with a natural landscape it's it's a
celebration of the natural landscape
around it so I guess you start from this
dream like because this feels like a
dream and then when you're faced with
the reality of the building materials
and all the actual constraints of the
building that it evolves from there
right yeah and so much I mean so much of
architecture you don't see um but it's
decisions made so how do
you how do you create independent
structures where you look out of one and
don't see the other you know how do you
ensure the sort of the stacking um and
the master plan works in a way that's
harmonious and view corridors and all of
those elements all of those components
of decision making are super appreciated
but not often thought about what's a
view corridor like to make sure that the
top unit you're not looking out and
seeing a whole bunch of units you're
looking out and seeing the ocean so
that's where you take this and then you
start angling everything and you start
thinking about well in this context do
we have green roofs so if there's any
hint of a roof it's camouflaged by
vegetation that matches what already
exists on the island where the engineers
become very important well yeah so how
do you build into a mountain side um
while being sensitive to to Beauty and
of the island it's almost like a
mathematical problem I took a class
computational geometry in grad school
where you have to think about like these
view corridors it's like a math problem
yeah well but it's also an art problem
because it's not just about making sure
that there's no occlusions to the view
you have to figure out when there is
occlusions like what is a vegetation is
it you have to figure all that out and
there's probably so every single every
single room every single building is a
is a thing that has extra complexity and
then the choic is like how does the
sunrise and set yeah so how do you want
to angle the hotel in relation awesome
to the sunrise and the sunset you you
obviously want people to experience
those um so which do you favor uh the
directionality of the wind and on on an
island and you know in this case the
winds coming from the North and the
vegetation is less Lush on the Northern
end so do you focus more on the sou
southern end and have you know the
horseback riding trails and amenities up
towards the the north so there are these
really interesting decisions and and
choices you get to reflect on that's a
fascinating sort of discussion to be
having and probably there's like actual
constraints and like infrastructure
issues so all those the grade of the
land right if it's super steep so also
finding the areas of topography that are
flatter but still have the great views
so it's it's fun it's I think real
estate and building it's like a giant
puzzle and I love puzzles every piece
relates to another and it's all sort of
interconnected yeah like you said in the
Old Post Office like the every single
room is different so every single room
is a puzzle when you're doing the
renovation
yeah that's fascinating and if you're
not thoughtful it gets like at best
really
quirky at worst completely ridiculous
Quirk is such a funny word it's such a
like youve walked into I'm sure you've
wed walked into your fair share of like
quirky rooms you know and sometimes like
that's Charming but most often it's
Charming when it's intentional yeah
through like smart design yeah you can
tell if it's by accident or if it's
intentional you could you could tell so
much I mean the whole Hospitality thing
it's not just like how it's designed
it's how once the thing is operating if
it's a hotel like how everything comes
together yeah the the culture of the
place and the warmth yeah like I think
with spaces
they you can feel like the so of a
structure and I think on the hotel side
you have to think about like flow of
traffic use all these things when you're
building condominiums or or your own
home you want to think about like the
warmth of a space as well and especially
with super modern design sometimes like
warmth is sacrificed and I think there
is a way to sort of marry both and and
that's where you get into sort of the
Interior Design Elements and disciplines
and how
Fabrics can create tremendous warmth in
a space which is otherwise sort of
Colder raw building materials and that's
a really interesting like how
texture matters how color matters and I
think often times interior design is
not it doesn't take the same priority
and I think the I think that
underestimates the impact can
have on how you experience a a room or a
space yeah especially when it's working
together with a with the architecture
yeah yeah fabrics and color that's so
interesting finishes you know the choice
of wood that's making me feel horrible
about the space we're sitting in it's
like black curtains the warmth I need to
work on this this is a big
two this is a big twoo item you're
making me I'll listen back to this over
and over maybe like a woman's touch
needed a lot a lot I actually I
appreciate the vegetation yeah fake
plants you know what I love about this
space though is it's is like you come
through like every
single element there's a story behind it
so it's not just some you didn't have
some interior designer curate your
bookshelf you know like nobody came in
here with books by the yard this is
basically an Ikea uh like this is not
this is not deeply thought through but
it it does bring me joy yeah uh which is
one way to do design as long as you're
happy that usually means if your taste
is decent enough that means others will
be happy or we'll see the joy radiate
through it but I appreciate you were
grasping for compliments and you
eventually got that no I actually I love
it I love it you have like a little I
love this guy there's yeah you're
holding on to to a monkey looking at a
at at a human skull which is
particularly irrelevant and this I mean
I feel like you've really thought about
all of these things yeah there there's
robot I don't know I mean I don't know
how much you've looked into robots but
there's there's a way to communicate
love and affection from a robot that I'm
really fascinated by and a lot of
cartoonists do this too you have to when
you create cartoons and non-human likee
entities you have to bring out the joy
so with Wall-E or um robots and um and
Star Wars to be able to communicate
emotion to anger and excitement thr a
robot is really interesting to me and
people that do it
successfully uh are awesome are awesome
make you smile yeah that makes me smile
for sure there's a longing there how do
you do that successfully as you as you
bring them your projects to life I think
uh there's there's so many detailed
elements that I think artists know well
uh but one basic one is something that
people people know and you now know cuz
you have a a dog um is the excitement
that a dog has when it when you first
show up just the recognizing you and
like catching your eye and just showing
its excitement by wiggling his butt and
tail and all this kind of this this uh
intense joy that overtakes his body that
that moment of recognizing something
yeah it's the double take that you
you're that that moment of like where
this Joy of recognition takes over your
whole cognition and you're just like uh
there and there's a connection and then
the other person gets excited you both
get excited together um it's kind of
like that feeling um what would I put it
you know like when you go to airports
and you get to see
people uh who haven't seen each other
for a long time all of a sudden
recognize each other in their meeting
and they're all like run towards each
other and the hug that moment uh by way
that's awesome to watch there so much
joy and and dogs though will have that
every time you could walk into the other
room to get a glass of milk and you come
back and your dog sees you like it's the
first time so I love replicating that in
robots they actually say children like
one of the reasons why peekaboo is so
successful is that they actually don't
remember not having seen you a few
seconds prior um there's a there's a
term for it but I remember as um when
when my kids were younger you leave the
room and you walk back in 30 seconds
later and they experience the same joy
as if you had been you know gone for
four hours and uh we grew out of that we
become very used to one another I kind
of want to forever be excited by the
peekaboo phenomena the simple Joys we're
talking about on fashion having the
confidence of taste to be able to sort
of push through on this idea of design
but you've also mentioned um somebody
you admires Rick Ruben in his book The
creative
act it has some really interesting ideas
and one of them is to accept uh
self-doubt and imperfection so is there
some battle within yourself that you
have on sort of
um striving for Perfection and for the
confidence and always kind of having it
together versus like accepting that
things are always going to be imperfect
I think every day I think I wake up in
the morning and you know I want to be
better I want to be a better mom I want
to be a better wife I want to be more
creative I want to be physically
stronger and um and so that very much
lives within me all the time you know I
think I I also grew up in the context of
being the child of two extraordinarily
successful
parents
and that could have been debilitating
for me and I saw that in a lot of my
friends who grew up in circumstances
similar to that they were afraid to try
for fear of of not measuring up and I
think
somehow early on I learned to kind of
harness the fear of not being good
enough not being confident enough um and
I harnessed it to make me better um and
and to push me outside of my comfort
zone so I think that's always lived with
me and and and I think it probably
always will I think you have to have
humility in anything you do that you
could be better and and strive for that
I think as you get older it it softens a
little bit as you have more reps you
know as you have more examples of of
having been thrown in the deep end um
and figure it out how to swim you you
get a little bit more com com fortable
in your sort of abstract
competency but if that fear is not in
you I think you're not challenging
yourself enough harness the
fear um the other thing he writes about
is um
intuition that you need to trust your
instincts and
intuition uh that's a very recrent thing
to say but so what percent of your
decision making is intuition and what
percent is through rigorous careful
analysis would you say it's both it's
like trust but verify you know I think
you I think that's also where um age and
experience comes into play because I
think you always have sort of a gut
instinct but I think intuition like
well-honed intuition comes from a place
of of accumulated knowledge right so
often times when you feel really
strongly about something it's because
you've sort of you've been there like
you know what's right um or on a
personal level if you're acting in
accordance with your core values you
know it just feels good and even if it
would be the right decision for others
if you're acting outside of of of your
sort of Integrity or core values it
doesn't feel good and and it you know
your intuition um will signal that to
you you'll never be you'll never be
comfortable
so I think because because of that I I
start oftentimes with my intuition and
then
I and then I put it through like a
rigorous test of of whether that is in
fact true um but very seldom do I go
against what my initial Instinct was not
at least at this point in my life yeah I
had actually a discussion yesterday with
a big- Time Business uh owner investor
who who's talking about being impulsive
and following that like on a phone call
shifting like the entire everything like
giving away a very large amounts of
money and moving it in another Direction
on an Impulse making a promise that he
can't at that time deliver but knows if
he works hard he'll deliver and all
doing just be following that impulsive
feeling and he said now that you know he
has has a family that probably some of
that impulse is quieted down a little
bit he's more rational and thoughtful
and so on but wonders
whether it's sometimes good to just be
impulsive and to just trust your gut and
Just Go With It Don't deliberate too
long because then you won't you won't do
it it's interesting it's the confidence
the stupidity maybe of Youth that leads
to some of the greatest breakthroughs
and it's like there's a cost to wisdom
and
deliberation there there is but I I
actually think in this case as you get
older you may act less impulsively but I
think you're more like attuned with um
you have more experience so you're your
gut is like more well honed you know so
your instincts are more well honed I
think
[Music]
um I I found that to be true for me you
know it doesn't feel as like Reckless as
when I was
younger uh amongst many other things you
were on The Apprentice people love you
on there people love the show so what
did you learn about business about life
from the uh various contestants on there
well I think you can learn everything
about life from show rers so I'm just
I'm got it that one human amazing um but
you know I it was it was such a wild
experience for me because I was I was
quite young um when I was on it just
getting started in business and it was
the number one television show in the
country and it went on to be syndicated
all over the world and it was just this
wild like phenomenal success you know a
business show had never um had never
crossed over in this sort of way so it
was really a moment in time and um you
had regular apprentice and then the
Celebrity Apprentice but but the tasks I
mean they they went on to be studied at
Business Schools across the country so
like every other week I'd be reading
case studies of how The Apprentice was
being examined and um taught to class is
in this University in Boston or you know
so it was extraordinary and and this was
like a real life classroom I was in so I
think because of the nature of the show
you learn a lot about you know teamwork
um and you're watching it and analyzing
it real time you learned a lot about um
a lot of the tasks were very marketing
oriented um because of you know the
short duration of time they had to to
execute um a lot of um you learned a lot
about time management because of that
short duration so you know almost every
episode would devolve into people
hysterical over the fact that they had
10 minutes left to um with this
Herculean lift ahead of them so so it
was it was a fascinating it was a
fascinating experience for me and and we
would be filming I mean we would film
first thing in the morning at like 5 or
6:
a.m. in Trump Tower often times like in
the lobby of Trump Tower that's where
the war rooms
um and boardrooms of the candidates were
the contestants were um and then we
would go up in the elevator to our
office we would work all day and then
we'd come down and we'd evaluate the
task so it was this weird like real life
television thing experience um in the
middle of our sort of on the book ends
of our workday um so it was it was
intense um so you're you're like
curating the television version of it
and also living it living the and often
times there was like an overlay like
there were episodes that they came up
with brand campaigns for my shoe
collection or my clothing line um or um
or design challenges related to you know
a hotel I was responsible for for
building so there was this unbelievable
crossover that was obviously great for
us from a business perspective but um
it's sometimes surreal to to experience
what was it like was it was it scary to
being in front of a camera when you know
so many
people watch I mean that that's a new
experience for you at that time just the
number of
people watching yeah was that weird it
was really weird I I really struggled
watching myself on the episodes like I
really I still to this day like
television as a medium like the fact
that we're taping this yeah I'm more
self-conscious than if we weren't I I
just it's um hey I have to watch myself
as after after we record this before I
publish it I have to listen to my stupid
self talk so and so you're saying it
doesn't get better it doesn't get better
I I still I hear myself I'm like does my
voice really sound like that um you know
why do I do this thing or that thing and
I I find it some people are super at
ease and and who knows maybe they're not
I
but some people feel like they're SEC
you know my father was I think like who
you who you saw as who you get and I
think that made him so effective um in
that Medium uh because he was just
himself and he was totally
unselfconscious I was not I was totally
self-conscious so it was uh it was
extraordinary but um but also a little
challenging for me I think certain
people are just like Born to Be
entertainers like Elvis like on stages
that come to life yeah this is where
they this is where they're truly happy
I've met I've met guys like that like
great rock stars like this is
where they they feel like they belong on
stages it's not just a thing they do and
they there's certain aspects they love
certain aspects they don't know this is
where this is where they're alive this
is where they they've always dreamed of
being this is where they want to be
forever Michael Jackson was like that
Michael Jackson I saw pictures of you
hanging out with Michael Jackson that
was cool he came once to a performance I
wanted to be one moment in time I wanted
to be a professional ballerina okay yeah
um and I was you know working really
hard I was going to the school of
American Ballet I was dancing at the
Lincoln Center in the Nutcracker I was
super serious you know nine
10-year-old and um and my parents came
to a Christmas performance of The
Nutcracker and my father brought Michael
Jackson with him and everyone so excited
that all the dancers they wore one glove
but I remember he was so shy he was so
quiet um when you'd see him uh like in
in smaller group
settings and then you'd watch him walk
on to stage and it was like a completely
different person like the Vitality that
came into him and you say that's like
someone who was born to do what he did
and and I think there are a lot of
performers like that and I just in
general love to see people that have
found the thing
that uh makes them come alive yeah like
I um as I mentioned went to the Jungle
recently with Paul rosley and he's a guy
who just belongs in the jungle yeah like
that's a guy where like when I I got a
chance to go with him from the city to
the jungle and you just see this person
change of the happiness the the the joy
he has when he first is able to uh jump
in the water of the Amazon River and to
feel like he's home with the crocodiles
and all that with he's calling friends
and probably dances around in the trees
with the monkeys so he like he this is
this is where he belongs and I love
seeing that you felt that I mean I I
watched the interview you did with him
and and he felt that like you his
passion and enthusiasm like
radiated and cap I mean I'm I love
animals like I love all animals never L
snakes so much and he almost made me now
I appreciate the beauty of them much
more than I did um prior to listening to
him speak about them but it it's an
infectious thing he actually we were
talking about skyscrapers before I loved
he called trees skyscrapers of life and
I thought that was so great yeah and
they are they're so big I mean just like
skyscrapers or large buildings they also
represent a history especially in Europe
I like to think look at all these
ancient buildings you like to think of
all the people throughout history that
have looked at them have admired them
have been inspired by them you know
great leaders of history in France it's
like Napoleon just the history that's
contained within a building you almost
feel the energy of that history you
could feel the stories emanate from the
buildings and that same way
when you look at Giant trees that have
been there uh for for decades for
centuries in some cases you you feel the
history the stories I'm inate I got a
chance to climb some of them so you feel
like there's a visceral feeling of the
power of the trees it's cool yeah that's
an experience I'd love to have be that
disconnected yeah being in the
jungle uh among the trees among the
animals you remember that you're forever
a part of nature you're you're
fundamentally our nature that this is a
uh Earth is a living organism and you're
a part of that organism and that's
humbling that's beautiful and you get to
experience that in a real real way it
sounds simple to say but when you
actually like experience it it stays
with you for a long time especially if
you're out there alone I I got a chance
to spend time in the jungle solo just by
myself and you sit in the fear of that
in the Simplicity of that all of it and
just no sounds of humans anywhere yeah
you're just sitting there and listening
to uh all the monkeys and the birds
trying to have sex with each other all
around you just screaming and there's
like romant I mean I romanticize
everything there's like birds that are
monogamous for life like Ma you could
see like two of them flying they're also
by the way screaming at each other I
always wonder like are they argu arguing
or is this their love language like
that's very fun you just have these like
two birds that you know have been
together for a long time and they're
just screaming at each other in the
morning that's really funny because
there aren't that many animal species
that are monogamous and you highlighted
one example but they literally sound
like just they're bickering but maybe if
to them it's beautiful you know I don't
want to judge but they do sound very
loud and very obnoxious um but amidst
all of that it's just I don't know I
think it's so humbling to like feel so
small too like I feel like when we get
busy and when we're running around it's
easy to
feel we're so in our head and we feel
sort of so consequential like in the
context of even our own lives and then
you find yourself in a situation like
that and it's I think you feel so much
more connected knowing how minuscule you
are in the broader sense and I feel that
way when I'm on the ocean on a
surfboard um you know you just it's it's
really humbling to be so small amidst
that vast sea and it feels
um it feels really beautiful you know
with no noise no chatter no
distractions just um just being in the
moment and it sounds like you
experienced that in a very very real way
and in the Amazon yeah the power of the
waves is cool I love swimming out into
the ocean and feeling the power of the
ocean you you just like this Speck and
you can't fight it right you just have
to sort of be in it and I think in
surfing one of the things I love about
it is feel like a lot of water sports
are like manipulating the environment
you know um and there's something that
can be a little like violent about it
like you look at wind surfing and um
whereas with surfing you're like in
harmony with it so um you're not
fighting it you're you're flowing with
it and you still have like the agency of
choosing which waves you're going to
surf and um you sit there and you you
read the ocean and and and you learn to
understand it but you can't control it
what's it like to
like like fall in your face when you're
trying to Surf like what I haven't
surfed before it just feels
like I always see videos of when
everything goes great I just wonder like
when it doesn't those are the ones
people post no um well I actually had
the unque experience of one of my first
time surfing I only learned a couple of
years ago so I'm not good I just love it
I love everything about it I love the
physicality I love being in the ocean I
love the everything about it the hardest
thing with surfing is paddling out
because when you're like committing you
catch a wave obviously sometimes like
you know you flip over your board and
that doesn't feel great but when you're
in sort of the line of impact and you've
maybe surfed a good wave in and now
you're going out for another set and you
get sort of stuck in that impact line
there's like nothing you can do you just
sort of sit there and you try to dive
underneath it and it will pound you and
pound you so I've been stuck there while
you know four five six waves just like
crash on top of your head and and the
worst thing you can do is get reactive
and you know um and scared and and try
and fight against it you kind of just
have to flow with it until inevitably
there's a break and then paddle like
hell back out to the line um to the
beach whatever you know whatever you're
feeling but it's that's to me that's the
hardest part um the paddling
out how did life
change when your father decided to run
for
presid Wow everything changed you know
almost almost
overnight we learned that he was
planning to announce his candidacy two
weeks before he actually
did and
nothing about our lives had been
constructed with politics in mind you
know I most often when people are
exposed to politics at that level that
sort of national level there's first
like city council
run and then maybe a state level run and
um and maybe maybe uh you know Congress
senator um ultimately the presidency so
it was unheard of to for him never to
have run a campaign and then run for
president and and win so it was
[Music]
um it was an extraordinary experience
there there was so much intensity and so
much scrutiny and um and and so much
noise so that took for sure like a
moment to acclimate too not sure I ever
fully acclimated but it it definitely
was um was a super un usual
experience but I think then the the
process that unfolded over over the next
couple of years was also like the most
extraordinary growth experience of my
life you know suddenly I was going into
communities that I probably never would
have been to and I was talking with
people who in 30 seconds would reveal to
me their deepest insecurity their
gravest Fe their wildest Ambitions all
of it with the hope that in telling me
that
story it would get back
to a potential future president of the
United States and have impacts for their
family for their community so the level
of cander and vulnerability people have
with
you is UN like anything I've ever
experienced and I done The Apprentice
before people may know um who I was in
some of these situations that I was
going into too but they wouldn't have
shared with me these things that you got
the impression that often times their
own spouses wouldn't know and they
wouldn't do so within 30 seconds
so you learn so much about what
motivates people what drives people what
their concerns are and you grow so much
as a result of it so when you're in the
White House people unlike in any other
position people have a sense that All
the Troubles they're going through maybe
you can help yeah so they put it all out
there and and and they do so in such a
raw vulnerable and real way
it's it's shocking and eye openening and
um and super motivating I I remember
once I was in New Hampshire and um early
on right after my father had had
announced his candidacy and man walks up
to me in in the greeting
line and within around 5 seconds he had
started to tell me a story about how his
daughter had died of an
overdose um and how he was worried his
son was also addicted to
opioids his daughter's
friends his son's friends and and it's
heartbreaking it's it's heartbreaking
and it's it's something that I would
experience every day in talking with
people and those stories just stay with
you
always you know I I uh took
a long road trip around the United
States in my 20s and I'm kind of
thinking of doing it again just just for
like a couple of months for that exact
purpose and you can get these stories
when you go to like a bar in the middle
of nowhere and just sit and talk to
people and they start
sharing and it's it's it reminds you
like how beautiful the country is it
reminds you several things
one that people well it shows you that
there's a lot of different accents
that's for one uh but aside from that
that people are struggling with all the
same stuff yeah and um at least at that
time I wonder what it is now but at that
time I don't remember on the surface
there's like political divisions there's
uh Republicans and Democrats and so on
but like underneath it there people are
all the same the concerns are all the
same there's not that much of a division
right now the the surface division has
been Amplified even more maybe because
of social media I don't know why uh so I
would love to see what the country is
like now but I suspect probably it's
still not as divided as it appears to be
on the surface what the media shows with
the social media shows um but what did
you experience in terms of the The
Division I think a couple reactions to
what you just said I
think the first is
you're when you connect with people like
that you are so um inspired by their
courage you know in the face of
adversity and um their resilience and
it's like a truly remarkable experience
for me the campaign lifted me out of a
bubble I didn't even know I was in you
know I I grew up on the Upper East Side
of New York and I felt like I was well
traveled and well educated and I believe
that I believed at the time that I'd
been exposed to Divergent
viewpoints and I realized during the
campaign how limited my exposure had
been relative to what it was becoming so
there was a lot of there was a lot of
growth in that as well but I do think
you know you think about the vital and
politics and um you know whether it's
worse than it's been in the past or not
I think that's Up For Debate I think you
know there have been few there have been
duels there
screaming and there's you know politics
has always been a blood sport and it's
always been incredibly vicious I think
in the toxic swirl of social media it's
more Amplified and um there are there's
more sort of democratization around
participating in it perhaps um and it
seems like the voices are louder but
it's always been it feels like it's
always been that um but I don't believe
most people are like that and and you
know you meet people along the way
and they're not leading with what their
politics are you know they're they're
telling you about their hopes for
themselves and their
communities and uh and it makes you feel
that we are a whole lot less divided
than um you know the media and uh others
would have us believe although I have to
say having duels sounds pretty cool
maybe I just romanticize Westerns anyway
all right I miss cleanwood movies
okay but it's true like you read some of
the stuff like in terms of what politics
used to be in the history of the United
States those those folks went pretty
rough like way rougher actually but they
didn't have social media so they had to
go like real hard and the media was
rough too so all like the the fake news
all of that that's not
recent it's it's been non-stop you know
I look at the surface division the
surface bickering and might be like just
a feature of democracy that's it's not a
bug of democracy it's a feature we're in
a constant conflict and it's the way we
resolve we try to figure out the right
way forward so in the moment it feels
like people are just tearing each other
apart but really we're trying to find a
way where like in the long Arc of
History it will look like progress but
in the short term it just sounds like
people making stories up about each
other and calling each other names and
all this kind of stuff but in the
there's a purpose to it I mean that's
what Freedom looks like I guess is what
I'm trying to say and is better than the
alternative well I I think that the vast
majority of people aren't participating
in it sure yes that's true also you know
I think there's a minority of people
that are doing most of the yelling and
screaming yeah and the majority of
Americans just want to send their kid to
a great school and want their
communities to thrive and
um want to be able to real Iz their
their dreams and aspirations so I saw a
lot more of that than it would feel
obvious if you looked at like a Twitter
feed what went into your decision to
join the White House as an
adviser you know the campaign I never I
never thought about joining it was kind
of like get to the end of it and when it
started I was like everything in my life
was almost firing on all cylinders I had
two young kids at home during the course
of the campaign I ended up um I was
pregnant with my third so um this young
family my
businesses real estate and and fashion
and um working alongside my brothers
running the Trump Hotel Collection and
we had so many my life was full and busy
and
um and so there was a big part of me
that was just wanted to get through just
get through it um without really
thinking forward to what the
implications were for me um but when my
father won he asked Jared and I to join
him and in asking that question you know
keep in mind he was a total Outsider so
there was no bench of people um as he
would have
today he had never spent the night in
Washington DC before yeah staying in the
White House and so when he asked us to
join him he trusted us
he trusted in our ability to to execute
and there wasn't a part of me that could
imagine the 70 or 80y old version of
myself looking back and having been okay
with having said no and going back to my
life as I knew it before I mean in
retrospect I realize there is no life as
you know it before you know um but but
just the idea of of of not saying yes
um wherever that would lead me and um
and so I I dove in you know I was
also during the course
of the campaign I was just much more
sensitive
to the problems and experiences of
Americans I I gave you an example before
of of the the father in New Hampshire
but but even just in my consumption of
information I you know I had a a
business um that was predominantly young
women you know many of which were
thinking about having a kid had just had
a child um were were planning on on that
life event and I knew what they needed
to be able to show up every day and and
realize this dream for themselves and
and the support structures they would
need to have in place and I remember
reading this article um at the time in
uh one of the major newspapers of of a
woman she had had a very solid job
working at one of the blue chip um
accounting firms and the recession came
she lost her job around the same time as
her partner left her and over a matter
of months she lost her home so she wound
up with her two young kids after
bouncing around between
neighbors living in their
car
she gets a call back from one of the
many interviews had done for a second
interview where she was all but
guaranteed the job should that go well
and she had arranged child care for her
two young children with with a neighbor
um in her old apartment block and the
morning of the interview she shows up
and the neighbor doesn't answer the
doorbell and she stands her 5 10 minutes
doesn't answer so she has a choice does
she go to the interview with her
children or does she try to to cancel
she gets in her car drives to the
interview leaves her two children in the
backseat of the car with the window
cracked goes into the interview and gets
pulled out of the interview by police
because somebody had call the cops after
seeing her her children in the backseat
of the car she gets thrown in jail her
kids get taken from her and she spends
years fighting to regain custody and I
think about that's an extreme example
but I think about something like that
and I say if I was the mother and we
were homeless like would I gone to that
interview
and I I probably would have and that is
not like an acceptable situation you
know so you you hear stories like that
and then you get
asked will you come with me and it's
really hard to say no you know I spent
four years in Washington I feel like I
left it all in the field I feel really
good about it and um and I'm I feel
really privileged to have been able to
do what I did I chance to
help to help many people saying no means
uh you're kind of turning away from
those people you felt like that to
me
yeah yeah but then it's the turmoil of
politics that you're getting into and it
really is a leap into the abyss
um what was it like trying to get stuff
done in
Washington in this um place where
politics is a
game uh it feels that way maybe from an
outsider perspective and you go in there
trying given some of those stories
trying to help people what's it like to
get anything done it's an incredible
cognitive
lift that's a nice way to put it yeah to
to get things done you know there are a
lot of people
who would prefer
to cling to the problem and their
talking points about how they're going
to solve it rather than sort of roll up
their sleeves and do the work it takes
to build coalitions of support and find
people who are willing to compromise and
move the ball and so it's extremely
difficult and you know Jared and I talk
about all the time it it probably should
be because these are highly cons
quential policies that impact people's
lives at scale shouldn't be so easy to
do them and they are doable but it's
challenging you know one of the first
experiences I had where it really was
just a full grind effort was um with tax
cuts and and the work I did to um get
the child tax credit doubled as part of
it and it just meant meeting after
meeting after meeting after meeting with
lawmaker convincing them of why this is
good policy um going into their
districts campaigning in their districts
helping them convince their constituents
of of why it's important of why child
care support is important of why Paid
Family Leave is important um of
different policies that impact working
American families so it's um it's hard
but it's uh it's it's really rewarding
and then to get it done I mean just the
child tax credit alone 40 million
American families got an average of
$2,200 each year as a result of the
doubling of the tri tax credits that's
one
component of tax cuts when I was like
researching this stuff you just get to
think the scale of things the scale of
impact is 40 million families each one
of those is a story is a story of
struggle of trying to give a large part
of your life to a job while still being
able to give love and support and care
to family to kids and to manage all of
that each one of those is a little
puzzle that they have to solve and it's
a life and death puzzle it's a uh you
can lose your your home your security
you can lose your job uh you can scoot
stuff up with parenting so you can mess
all that up and you're trying to hold it
together and government policies can
help make that easier or can some cases
make that possible and you get to do
that a scale not of like five or 10
families but like 40 million families
and that's just one thing yeah the
people who shared with me their
experience and you know during the
campaign it was what they hoped to see
happen once you were in there it was
what they were seeing what they were
experiencing the result of the policies
and and that was that was the fuel you
know on the hardest days like that was
the fuel child tax credit I remember
visiting with a woman Britney Houseman
she came to the White House and she had
two small children she was pregnant with
her third her husband was killed in a
car accident she was in school at the
time her dream was to become criminal
justice Advocate that was no longer on
the table for her after he passed away
and she became the so earner and
provider for her family and she couldn't
afford child care she couldn't afford to
stay in school so she ended up
creating a Child Care Center in her home
and her Center was so successful because
in part of different policies we worked
on including the child care block rants
that went to to the state she ended up
opening additional centers I visited her
one of them in Colorado now she has like
a huge focus on helping teenage moms who
don't have the resources to afford
quality child care for their kids um
come into her centers and programs and
you know it's stories like that of the
hardships people face but also what they
do with opportunity when they're given
it um that really like Powers you
through tough moments when you're in
Washington what can you say about the
process of like bringing that to life so
uh the child tax
credits so doubling them from 1,000
2,000 per child well like what are the
challenges of that and getting people to
compromise I'm sure there's a lot of
politicians playing games with that
because maybe it's a republican that
came up with an idea or a Democrat that
came up with an idea and so they don't
want to give credit to the idea and
there's probably all kinds of games
happening where they when the game is
happening you probably forget about the
families each politician thinks about
how they can benefit themselves you
forget like the serving part of the role
you're supposed to be in there were
definitely people I met with in
Washington who I felt that was true
of but you know they all go back to
their districts and I assume that they
all have similar experiences to what I
had where people share their stories so
there'd be something really cynical
about thinking they forget but you know
some do you helped get people together
what's that take trying to get people to
compromise trying to get people to see
the common Humanity well I think first
and foremost you have to be willing to
talk with them so you know one of the
policies I advocated for was Paid Family
lead
we left and 9 million more Americans had
it through a combination of securing it
for our federal Workforce I I had people
in the White House who were pregnant who
didn't have access to to paid leave so
we want to keep people attached to the
workforce yet when they have an
important life event like a child um we
create an impossibility for that you
know some people don't even have access
to to unpaid leave um if they're
part-time workers and so that and um and
then we also put in place the first ever
national tax credit for workers making
under $72,000 a year where employers
could then offer it to their workers
that was also part of tax cuts so you
know part of it is is really taking
taking the arguments as to why this is
good smart well-designed policy to
people and you know it was one of my big
surprises that um on certain policy
issues that I thought would have been
well
socialized the policies that existed
were never shared across the aisle so
people just lived with them maybe in
hopes that one day they would have the
votes to get exactly what they want but
I was surprised by how little discussion
there was so so I think part of it is be
willing to have those tough discussions
with people who may not share your
Viewpoint and be an active listener when
they point out flaws
and they have suggestions for for
changes um not believing that you have a
monopoly on good ideas and and I think
there has to be a lot of humility in in
architecting these things and um and a
policy should benefit from that type of
well-rounded input yeah be able to see
like you said well-designed policies
there's probably like the details are
important too like there's just just
like with architecture and you walk
through rooms there's probably really
good designs of policies economic policy
that helps families that delivers the
maximum amount of uh money or resources
to families that needed and is not a
waste of money so like that there's a
probably really nice designs there nice
ideas that are bipartisan that has
nothing to do with politics has to do
with just great Economic Policy it's
great policies and that requires
listening requires Trust too like I
learned tax cuts was really interesting
for me because I met with so many people
across the political Spectrum on
advancing that policy I really figured
out who was willing to deviate from
their talking points when the door was
closed and who
wasn't you know and it takes some
courage to do that um especially without
shity that it would actually get done
you know espe especially if they've
campaigned on something that was
slightly different and uh you know not
everyone has that courage so through tax
cuts I I learned the people who did have
that courage and I went back to that
well time and time again with on
policies that that I thought was were
important you know some were were
bipartisan the Great American outdoors
Act is something um it's incredible
policy that I love that one yeah it's
amazing it's one of the largest pieces
of conservation legislation since
the national park system was created and
you know over 300 million people visit
our national parks the vast majority of
them being Americans every year so this
is something that is real and beneficial
for people's lives getting rid of the
defered maintenance permanently funding
them but there are there are other
issues like that that just weren't being
prioritized modernizing Perkins CTE you
know in vocational education and it's
something I became super passionate
about um and and help lead lead the
charge on um I think in in America for a
really long period of time we've really
believed that education stops when you
leave high school or
college and that is not true and that's
a dangerous way to think so how can we
both Galvanize the private sector to
ensure that they continue to train
workers for the jobs they know are
coming and how they train their existing
Workforce into the new job jobs with
robotics or Machinery or new
technologies that are coming down the
pike so
galvanizing um the private sector to
join us in in in that effort so whether
it's the legislative side like the
actual legislation of of Perkin CT which
was focused on on vocational education
or whether it's the ability to use the
White House to Galvanize the private
sector we got over 16 million
commitments from the private sector to
retrain or skill workers into the jobs
of tomorrow yeah there's so many aspects
of Education that you helped on access
the the stem and computer science
education so the the CT thing you're
mentioning modernizing Career and
Technical education that's millions
millions of people the ACT provided
nearly $1.3 billion annually to more
than 13 million students to better align
the employer needs and all that kind of
stuff very large scale policies that
help a lot of people it's fascinating
education often isn't like the bright
shiny object everyone's running towards
so one of the hard things in in politics
when there's something that is good
policy sometimes it has no momentum
because it doesn't have a cheerleader so
where are areas of good policy that you
can like literally just carry across the
Finish Line because people tend to run
towards what's the news of the day sort
of to try to address
whatever issues being talked about on on
the front pages of papers and there's so
many issues that that need to be
addressed and you know education is one
of them that's just under prioritized
you know human trafficking that's an
issue that I didn't go to the White
House thinking I would work on but you
hear a story of a
Survivor and you can't not want to
eradicate one of the greatest evils that
the mind can even imagine you know the
traffic of people the exploitation of
children and I think for so many they
assume that this is a problem that
doesn't happen on our Shores you know
it's something that that you may
experience at far-flung destinations
across the world but it's happening
there and it's happening here as well
and so through a coalition of people
that on both sides of the aisle that I
came to trust and and to work well with
we were able to get leg ation which the
president signed passed nine pieces of
legislation combating trafficking at
home and abroad and digital exploitation
of children how much of a toll does that
take seeing all the problems in the
world it's such a large
scale the immensity of it all was that
hard to walk around with that just
knowing how much suffering there is in
the world as you're trying to help all
of it as you're trying to design
government policies to help all of that
it's also a very visceral recognition
that there is suffering in the
world how difficult is that to walk
around
with you feel it
intensely you know we were just talking
about human trafficking I
mean you don't design these policies in
the absence of the input of survivors
themselves so you hear their
stories remember a a woman who is really
influential in my thinking Andrea
hipwell who she was in college where she
was lured out by a guy she thought was a
good guy started dating him he gets her
hooked on
drugs convinces her to drop out of
college and spends the next five years
selling her she only got out when she
was
arrested and all too often that's
happening too that the victim's being
targeted
um not the perpetrator so we did a lot
with doj around changing that and um
but now she's helping other survivors
get skills and job training and um the
therapeutic interventions they need but
you you speak with people like Andrea
and so many others and I mean you can't
not
your your heart gets seized by it and
it's it's both it's motivating and it's
hard it's really hard I was just talking
to a brain surgeon many of the surgery
has to do
he knows the chances are very low of
success and he says that that uh wears
at his armor yeah it chips away it's
like only so many times can you do that
and thank God he's doing it because I
bet you there a lot of others that don't
choose that particular field because of
those low success rates but you can see
the pain in his eyes
like maintaining your Humanity while
doing all of it you could see the story
The you could see the family that loves
that person just you feel the immensity
of that and you you you you feel the
Heartbreak involved with mortality in
that case and with suffering also in
that case and in general and all these
human
trafficking um but even helping families
try to stay afloat trying to break out
or Escape poverty all of that you get to
see those stories of struggle it's not
easy
um but but the people that really feel
the humanity of that feel the pain of
that are probably the right people to be
politicians but it's probably also why
you can't stay in there too long it's
the only time in my life
where you actually feel like there's
always a conflict right between work and
life and making sure you know I as a
woman I'd often get asked about you know
how do you balance work and and family
and and I never I never liked that
question because balance it's like
elusive right you're you're one fever
away from like no balance you know like
your child's sick one day uh what do you
do um there goes balance or you know you
have a huge project with a deadline
there goes balance like I think a better
way to frame it is am I living in
accordance with my priorities um maybe
not every day but every week you know
every month and and reflecting on have
you architected a life that aligns with
your priorities so that more often than
not you're where you need to be in that
moment
and service at that level was the one
time where you really you feel
incredibly conflicted about having any
priorities other than serving it's
finite you know in every business I've
built you're building for duration you
know and then you go into the White
House and it is sanr and our glass
whether it's 4 years or 8 years it's a
finite period of time you have and most
people don't last four years I think the
average in the White House is 18 months
it's
exhausting um but it's the only time
when you're at home with your own
children that you feel you think about
all the people you've met and you feel
guilty about any time that's
spent not advancing those interests in
to the best of your capacity
and that's a hard that's a hard thing
that's a really hard feeling as a parent
and it's really challenging then to be
to be present to always need to answer
your phone you know to always need to be
available it's um it's very difficult
it's taxing but it's it's also the
greatest privilege in the world so
through that the turmoil of that the
hardship of that what was the role of
family through all that Jared and the
kids what was that like that was that
was everything you know to have that to
have the support systems I had in place
with with my husband and you know we had
we had left New York and wound up in
Washington and New York I lived 10
blocks away from my mother-in-law who if
I wasn't taking my kids to school she
was so we lost some of that which was
very hard but we had What mattered which
was each other and
um and you know my kids were young when
I got to Washington Theo my youngest was
8 months old
and Arabella my oldest my daughter was 5
years
old so they were still quite young we
have a son um Joseph who was three and
uh and I think for me
like the dose of levity coming home at
night and having them there and just
joyful and um
it was super grounding and important for
me I still remember Theo um when he was
around three three and a half years old
Jared used to make me coffee every
morning and it was like my great luxury
that I would sit there he still makes it
for me every morning I told him I'm
never even though I I secretly know how
to actually work the coffee machine but
I've convinced him that I have no idea
how to work the coffee machine now I'm
going to be busted but um it's a skill I
don't want to learn because it's it's
one of his like acts of love he brings
me coffee every morning in bed while I
read the newspapers and um and Theo
would watch this and so he got Jared to
teach him how to make coffee and Theo
learned how to make like a full-blown
cappuccino nice and he was so he had so
much joy in every morning bringing me
this cappuccino and I remember like the
sound of his little steps you know like
the slide it's
um it was so cute coming down the
hallway with my like perfectly foed
cappuccino now I try to get him to make
me coffee and he's like come on
Mom that was a moment in time but we had
a lot of like little um moments like
that that were just amazing so yeah I
got a chance to chat with him and he has
a his silliness and sense of humor it's
um yeah it's really joyful yeah I could
see how that could be an
escape from The Madness of Washington of
the adult life the quot we really kept
like our home life pretty sheltered from
everything else and we were able to do
so because they were so young and
because they weren't connected to the
internet they were too young for
smartphones all of these things we were
able to shelter and protect them and
allow them to have as normal as
upbringing as was possible in the
context we were living and
uh and they brought me like and continue
to bring me so much so much joy but they
were I mean without Jared and without
the kids it it would have been much more
lonely so three kids you've now upgraded
two dogs and a
hamster uh well our second dog so we We
rescued him thinking he we thought he
was probably like part German Shepherd
part Lab is what we were told he's now I
don't even know if he qualifies as a dog
he's like the size of a horse
Sim um so I don't think he has much lab
in him I
think we Joseph has not wanted to do a
DNA test um because he really wanted a
German Shepherd so he's a German sheer
he's he is gigantic and we also have a
hamster who's the newest edition because
my son um Theo he tried to get um he
tried to get a dog as well our first dog
winter um became my daughter's dog as
she wouldn't let her brother others play
with him or sleep with him and was old
enough to bully them into submission so
then Joseph wanted a dog and got Simba
Theo now wants a dog and uh has Buster
the hamster in the interim so we'll see
what advice would you give to other
mothers just having planning on having
kids and maybe advice to yourself how to
continue figuring out this puzzle I
think being a parent um you have to
cultivate within yourself
like hid in levels of empathy you have
to really look at each child and see
them for who they are what they enjoy
what they love and
and and meet them where they're at and I
think that can be enormously challenging
when your kids are so different in
temperament you know as they get older
that difference in temperament may be
within the same child depending on the
moment of the day um but it it really I
think it's actually made me um a much
softer person a much better listener I
think I see people more truly for for
who they are as opposed to how I want
them to be sometimes and I think being a
parent to three children who are all
exceptional and all incredibly different
has has enabled that in me I think for
for me though they've also been like
some of my greatest teachers in that
we were talking about the the presence
you felt when you were in the jungle and
the the connectivity you felt and sort
of the simple joy and I think for for us
as we grow older we kind of Disconnect
from that like my kids have taught me
how to play again um and that's
beautiful I remember just a couple of
weeks ago we had one of these crazy
Miami torrential downpours and Arabella
comes down it's around 8 o'clock at
night it's it's really raining
and she's got rain boots and pajama
pants on and she's going to take the
dogs for a walk in Rain which you know
she had all day to walk but she but she
wasn't doing it because they needed to
go for a walk she was like this would be
fun yeah and I'm standing at the
doorstep watching her and she goes out
with Simba and winter this massive dog
and this little tiny dog and I'm
watching her walk to the end of the
driveway and she's just dancing and it's
pouring and I took off my shoes and I
went out and I joined her and we danced
in the rain and even as like a Preen who
normally you know she like allowed me to
experience the joy with her um and it
was it was amazing we can be so much
more fun if we allow ourselves to be
more playful we can be so much more
present I look at Theo loves games so we
play a whole lot of board games any kind
of game um so it started with board
games um we do a lot of puzzles uh then
it became card games I just taught him
how to play poker nice he he loves
backhanding like any kind of game and
he's so fully in them you know when he
plays he plays my son Joseph he loves
nature and he'll say to me sometimes
when like I'm taking a picture of
something he's observing like a
beautiful sunset he's like Mom just
experience
it like yes you're right Joseph just
experience it you know so so they those
kids have taught me so much about sort
of reconnecting with what's real and
what's true and being present in the
moment and uh and experiencing Joy they
always give you permission to sort of uh
reignite the inner child be a kid again
yeah and it it's interesting what you
said that the puzzle of noticing each
human being like what makes them
beautiful the the unique
characteristics like what they're good
at yeah the way they want to
be mentored
like I I often see
that um especially with coaches and
athletes young athletes aspiring to be
great each athlete needs to be trained
in a different way like I for
example with some you need a softer
approach like with me I always like like
a dictatorial approach I like the coach
to be this like menacing figure that's
one that brought out the best in me I
didn't want to be friends with the coach
like I want to almost I it's weird to
say but yelled at like put to be pushed
but that's doesn't work for everybody uh
and that's a risk you have to take as a
in the coach context of like because you
can't just yell at everybody yeah you
have to figure out like what does each
person need and
when uh you have kids I imagine the
puzzle is even harder and when they all
need different things but yet coexist
and are sometimes competitive with one
another so you'll be at a dinner table
the the amount of times I get well
that's not fair why did you let and I'm
like life isn't fair and by the way like
I'm not here to be fair I'm like I'm
trying to give you each what you need
especially when I've been working really
hard and you know in the White House I'd
say okay well now we have a Sunday and
we have these hours and I I'll have like
a grand plan you know and we're going to
make it count and it's going to involve
you
know hot chocolate and sleds and you
know whatever whatever it is that like
my great adventure that we're going to
go play mini golf and then I come down
all psyched up all ready to go and uh
the kids have zero
interest and there have been a lot of
times where I've been like we're doing
this thing and and then I realized wait
a second you know like sometimes you
just like plop down on the floor and
start playing magne tiles you know and
like that's where they need you and so
so those of us who have sort of like
Alpha personalities who sometimes it's
just just witness like witness what they
need don't like play with them and allow
them to lead the play Don't force them
down a road you may think is more
interesting or productive or educational
or edifying you know just just be with
them observe them and and then show them
that you are genuinely curious about the
things that they are genuinely curious
about I think there's a lot of love when
you do that also there's just
fascinating puzzles was talking to a
friend yesterday and she has four kids
and uh they fight a lot and she she
generally wants to break up the fights
but she's like I'm not sure if I'm just
supposed to let them fight and they
figure it out or you always break break
them up because I'm told that it's okay
for them to fight kids do that they kind
of figure out their own situation that's
part of like the growing up process but
you want to always especially if it's
physical they're like pushing each other
want to kind of stop it but uh at the
same time it's also part of the play
part of the Dynamics and that's a puzzle
you also have to figure out and plus
you're probably worried that they're
going to get hurt if they're well I
think there's like when it gets physical
that's like okay we have to intervene I
know you're into martial arts but but
that's normally like the red line um you
know once it once it tips into that but
there is always that you know like you
have to allow them to problem solve for
themselves like a little interpersonal
conflict is is good it's really hard
when you try to navigate something
because everyone thinks you're taking
their s you have oftentimes incomplete
information it's um I think for parents
what tends to happen too is we see our
kids fighting with each other in a way
that all kids do and we start to project
into the future and like catastrophize
you know if like my two sons are going
through a moment where they're like oil
and water anything one wants to do the
other doesn't want to do it's like a
very interesting moment so my instinct
is they're not going to like each other
when they're 25 you know you sort of
project into the future as opposed to
recognizing this is a stage that I too
went through and it's normal and not
building it in your mind
into into something that's
unnecessarily consequential it's
shortterm formative conflict yeah
so uh ever since 2016 the the number and
the level of attacks you've been under
has been steadily increasing it's been
super
intense how do you walk through the fire
of that you've
been very stoic about the whole thing I
don't think I've ever seen you respond
to an attack you just let it pass over
you and you stay positive and you focus
on solving problems and you didn't
engage while being in DC you didn't
engage into the back and forth fire of
the politics so what's your philosophy
behind that I appreciate your saying
that I was very stoic about it I think
you know I feel things pretty deeply so
initially some of
that really took me off guard like some
of the derivative love and hatred um
some of the intensity of of of the
attacks
um and there were times when it was it
was so easy to counter it I'd even write
something out and and say well I'm going
to I'm going to press send and never did
I I felt that sort of getting into the
mud fighting back it didn't run true to
who I am as a human being like it didn't
it felt at odds with with who I am and
how I want to spend my time so I think
as a result I was
often times on the receiving end of a
lot of a lot of cheap shots and I'm okay
with that because it's sort of the way I
know how to be in the world I was
focused on things I thought mattered
more and you know I I think part of me
also internalized there's a concept in
Judaism called lanara which is
translated into I think quite literally
evil
speech
and the idea that you know you know
speaking poorly of
another is almost the moral equivalent
to
murder because you can't really repair
it you can apologize but you can't
repair it another component of that is
that it does as much damage to the
person saying the words um than it does
to the person receiving them and I think
about that a lot I talk about this
concept with with my kids a lot um and
I'm not willing to pay the price of that
bleeing and momentary
satisfaction of of sort of swinging
back because I think it would be it
would be too expensive for my soul and
and that's how I kind of made peace with
it because I think that's just that
feels more true for me but it is a
little bit
contrary in
politics it's uh it's
definitely um it's definitely a
contrarian Viewpoint um to to not get
into the fry actually someday I love
Dolly pardon says that um she doesn't
condemn or criticize she loves and
accepts and I like that it feels it
feels right for me I also like that you
said that words have power it's not
sometimes people say well
words when you speak negatively of
others Ah that's just words but I think
there's a cost to that there's a cost
like you said to your soul and there's a
cost in terms of the damage it can do to
the other person uh whether it's to
their reputation publicly or to them
privately it's just is a human being
psychologically and and in the place
that it puts them because they think
they start thinking negatively in
general and then maybe they respond and
there's this vicious downward spiral
that happens that almost like we don't
intend to but it destroys everybody in
the
process you quoted Alan Watts I love him
in uh saying quote you are under no
obligation to be the same person you
were five minutes ago so uh how of the
years in DC and the years after uh
change
you I love alen WS too I I listen to his
uh lecture sometimes falling asleep he's
got like an on planes he's got like the
most soothing voice but um but I love
what he said about you have no
obligation to be who you were 5 minutes
ago because we should always feel that
we have the ability to evolve and grow
and and and better ourselves I I think
further than that if we don't look back
on her who we were a few years ago with
some level of embarrassment we're not
growing enough right so there's nothing
I when I look back I'm like oh you know
it's I feel like that that feeling is
you know because you're growing
into into hopefully you know sort of a
better version of yourself and I hope
and feel that that's been that's been
true for me as well I think the person I
am today you know we spoke um in in the
beginning of our discussion about um
some of my earliest Ambitions in real
estate and in fashion and those were
amazing adventures and um and incredible
experiences in government and I feel
today that all of those Ambitions are
more fully integrated and to me as a
human being I'm much more comfortable
with the various pieces of my
personality and that any Professional
Drive is more integrated into more
Simple Pleasures like everything for me
has gotten like much simpler and easier
in terms of what I want to do and what I
want to be and and um I think that's
where you know my kids have been my
teachers just being fully present um and
enjoying like the little moments and it
it doesn't mean I'm any less like driven
than I was before it's just more a part
of me than
um being sort of the allc consuming
energy one has in their 20s yeah just
like you said with your mom be able to
let go and enjoy the water the Sun the
beach yeah and enjoy the moment the
simple the Simplicity of the moment I
think a lot about the fact that you know
for for a lot of young
people they they really know what they
want to do
but they don't actually know who they
are and then I think as you get older
hopefully you know who you are and
you're much more comfortable with
ambiguity around what you want to do and
accomplish you're more flexible in your
thinking around those things and give
yourself permission to be who you are
yeah you made the decision not to engage
in the politics of the 2024 campaign if
it's okay let me read what you wrote on
the topic quote I love my father very
much this time around I'm choosing to
prioritize my young children and the
private life we are creating as a family
I do not plan to be involved in politics
while I will always love and support my
father going forward I will do so
outside the political Arena I'm grateful
to have had the honor of serving the
American people and I will always be
proud of many of our administration's
accomplishments so can you explain your
thinking your philosophy behind that
decision I think first and foremost it
was a decision rooted in me being a
parent um really thinking about what
they need from me now you know politics
is is a rough rough business and I think
it's one that you also can't dabble in I
think you have to either be all in or or
all out and I know today the cost they
would pay for me being all
in emot Al in terms of my
absence at such a
formative point in their life and I'm
not willing to make them bear that cost
I serve for four years and and feel so
privileged to have done it
but as their mom I think it's it's it's
really important that I do what's right
for them and and I think there are a lot
of ways you can serve you know I think
there's obviously we talked about the
enormity the scale of what can be
accomplished in in government service
but you know I think there's something
equally valuable about
helping within your own Community um you
I volunteer with the the kids a lot and
we feel really good about that service
it's different but it's no less
meaningful so I think there are other
ways there are other ways to serve I
also think for you
know politics is um is a it's a pretty
dark world like there's a lot of
Darkness a lot of
negativity and it's just really at odds
with what feels good for me as a human
being and you know it is it it's a
really it's a really rough business um
so so for me and my family it it feels
right to not participate so it wears on
your
soul and uh yeah there is a bit at least
from an outsider's perspective a bit of
dark darkness in that part of our world
I wish it didn't have to be this way me
too I think part of that darkness is
just watching all the legal turmoil
that's going on what's it like for you
to see that um your father involved in
that going through
that on a human level it's my father and
I love him very much so it's it's
painful to experience but uh ultimately
I wish it didn't have to be this way I
like it that underneath all of this I
love my father is the thing that uh you
lead with that's so true it is it is
family uh and I hope uh amidst all this
turmoil love is the thing that wins it
usually does in the end yes but in the
short term there is like we were talking
about there's a bit of bickering but at
least don't no more
duels no more duels you mentioned Dolly
Parton
that's a segue that's this listen I'm
not very good at this thing I'm trying
to figure out okay now we both love do
Parton um I so uh you're you're big into
live music so maybe you can mention why
you love Dolly Parton I definitely would
love to talk to I would love to
interview her she's such an icon she's
such incredible human what I love about
her and I've really come to love her in
recent years is she's so authentically
herself
and she's obviously so talented and um
and so accomplished and this
extraordinary woman but I just feel like
she has no conflict within herself as to
who she is um she reminds me a lot of my
mom in that way and and it's super
refreshing and and really beautiful to
observe somebody um somebody who's so in
the public eye being so fully secure and
in who they are what their talent is and
and what drives them so I think she's
she's amazing
um and she leads with a lot of like love
and positivity so I think she's very
cool I hope you have a long conversation
yeah she's like okay so there's many
things to say about her first like
incredibly great musician songwriter
performer yeah also can create an image
and have fun with it you know like have
fun being herself like over the top it
feels that way right like she's really
she enjoys after all these years it
feels like she's enjoying she like
enjoys what she does and you also have
the sense that if she didn't she
wouldn't do it that's right and just an
iconic country musician country music
singer yeah um there's a lot we've
talked about a lot of musicians who do
you enjoy you mentioned Adele seeing her
perform hanging out with her yeah I mean
she's extraordinary her voice
is unreal um so she is I find her to be
so talented and she's so unique in that
three-year-olds love her music she's
actually the first concert Arabella ever
went to too um at Madison Square Garden
when she she was around four and
90-year-olds love her music and that's
pretty rare to have that kind of um
bandwidth of resonance so so I think
she's so talented we actually just saw
her I took all three kids in Las Vegas
around a month ago Alice Johnson um
whose case I had worked with in the
white house um my father commuted her
sentence her her case was brought to me
by a friend Kim Kardashian and um and
she came uh to the show we all went
together with some mutual friends and I
was like a very profound it was amazing
to see Adele but it was a very profound
experience for me to have with my kids
because she rode with us in in the car
on the way to the show and and she
talked to my kids about her experience
and her story um and how her case found
its way to me and and I think for young
children it's very abstract you know
policy and so for her to be able to
share with them this was a very
beautiful moment and led to a lot of
really incredible conversations with
each of my kids about our time and
service because you know they gave up a
lot for for me to do it actually Alice
told them the most beautiful story about
the plays she used to put on in prison
how these shows were like the hottest
ticket in town like you could not get
into them they always extended their run
and um but for the people who were in
them a lot of those men men and women
had never
experienced Applause nobody had ever
shown up um at their games or at their
plays or and and clapped for them and
the emotional experience of of just
being able to give someone that you know
being able to stand and and and applaud
for someone and how meaningful that was
and she was showing us pictures from
these different Productions and it was a
really it was a beautiful moment Alice
actually after
um her sentence was commuted and and she
came out of prison together we worked on
23 different pardons or commutations so
so the impact of of her experience and
how she was able
to to take her her opportunity and and
create that same opportunity for others
who who were deserving and and who she
believed in was was very beautiful so
anyway that was an extraordinary Concert
Experience for my kids to be able to
have that moment what a story so just
that's the sort of the
uh and here we are dancing at Adele
exactly exactly like that turning point
six years later it was almost to the day
six years later so that that policy that
meeting meeting of the minds resulted in
a major turning point in her life and
Alice's life and now you're dancing with
a d and now we're at a Dell yeah I mean
uh you mentioned also other I've seen
commutations where it's it's a it's an
opportunity to step in and
consider the ways that the justice
system does not always work well um like
in cases when it's nonviolent crime and
Drug offenses there there's a case of a
person uh you mentioned that received
the life sentence for selling weed yeah
yeah it you know and it's just the
number it's like hundreds of thousands
of people are in the federal president
jail in the system for drug for selling
drugs that's the only thing with no no
violence on their record
whatsoever and it's obviously there's a
lot of complexity there's the details
matter but often times the justice
system does
not um do right in the way we think
right is and it's nice to be able to
step in and help people like and direct
they're overlooked and they have no
Advocate Jared um and I helped in a
small way on his effort but he really um
spearheaded the effort on on Criminal
Justice Reform through the first step
act which was an enormously
consequential piece of legislation that
gave so many people another opportunity
and that was amazing uh so working with
him closely on that was was a beautiful
thing for us to also experience together
but in the final days of the
administration you know you're not
getting legislation passed um and
anything you do administratively is
going to be probably overturned by an
incoming Administration so you know how
do you use that that time for maximum
results and I really like dug in on on
Pardons and commutations that I thought
were were um were overdue and and were
worthy and um and my last night in
Washington DC I uh the gentleman you
mentioned Corvin I was on the phone with
his mother at uh 12:30 in the morning
telling her that her son would be
getting out the next day you know so and
it felt really it's it's one person but
you see what Alice like the ripple
effect of you know the commutation
granted to her and her ability and the
impact she'll have within her family
with her
grandkids um and now she's an advocate
for so many others who are voiceless you
know it felt like it felt like the
perfect way to end four years to be able
to um to be able to call those parents
and call those kids in some cases and
and give them the news that a loved one
was coming home and I just love the cool
image of you Kim Kardashian and Alice
just dancing in a Del show with the kids
I love it well Kim wasn't at the adult
show but but she's the got it she had
connected us it was beautiful beautiful
the way adult like can hold just like
the badassness she has on stage like the
she does like heartbreak songs like
better than anyone or no it's not even
heartbreak like what's what's that genre
of song like Rolling in the Deep like a
little anger a Little Love a Little like
something a little attitude and just
like one of the greatest voices ever all
that together just her by herself yeah
you can strip it down and the power of
her voice you know I think about that
one of the things you're talking about
live music one of the amazing things now
is you there's so much incredible
concert material that's been uploaded to
YouTube so sometimes I just sit there
and watch these like old shows um we
both love Stevie rayon like watching him
perform you can even find old videos of
like Jango Reinhardt you got me I got
you
Texas flood we had this moment which is
hilarious that you said like one of the
songs you really like of Stevie is Texas
Flood well my bucket list is to learn
how to play it a bucket list this is a
bucket list it you made me feel so good
because for me Texas Flood was the first
solo on guitar I've ever learned because
for me it was the like the impossible
solo yeah and then that so I I work
really hard to uh to learn it it's like
one of the most iconic sort of blues
songs Texas blues songs and now you made
me fall in love with the song again want
to play it out live at the very least
put it up on YouTube and because it is
it's so fun to improvise and when you
lose yourself in the song it truly is a
blues song you can have fun with it I
hope you do do that throw regardless I
want you to play it for me 100% 100% but
he's he's amazing and and you know
there's so many great performers that
are playing live now um you know I just
saw Chris Stapleton show he's an amazing
country artist he's too good he's so
that guy is so good uh Lucas Nelson's
one of my favorite to see live and
there's so many incredible songwriters
and musicians that are out there touring
today but I think you also you can go
online and watch some of these old
performances like Jango Reinhardt was
the first because I torture myself was
the first song I learned to play on the
guitar and it took me like nine months
to a year it was
I mean I should have chosen a different
song but ou2 monamore his um one of his
songs was and it was like finger style
and I was just going through and and
grinding it out and and that's kind of
how I started to learn to play by
playing that song but to see these old
videos of him playing yeah you know
without all his fingers and and and the
skill and the dexterity one of my
favorite live performances is actually
who really influenced Adele as artha
Franklin um and she did this she did a
version of Amazing Grace have you ever
seen this video no I cried look up it
was in LA it was like the temple
Missionary Baptist Church talk about
strip down she's literally a I mean just
listen to
this you could do one note and you could
just kill it
the pain the
soulfulness the spirit you feel like in
her when you watch
this that's true a Del carries some of
that Spirit also right
yeah and you can take away all the
instruments with theele and just have
that voice and it's so commanding and
it's
so amaz anyway you watch this and you
see like the Arc of also the experience
of the people in the choir and them
starting to join in and it's anyway it's
it's amazing I love watching uh Queen
like Freddy Mercury Queen performances
yeah like in terms of vocus and just
like great stage pres that live a
performance is like considered one of
the best of all I think I've watched
that so many times he's so cool pull up
that for a
second go to that part where where he's
saying Radio Gaga and they're all um
mimicking his arm it's so cool
look at
that man I missed that guy so good so
that's an example of a person that was
born to be on stage so good well we were
talking surfing we were talking Jitsu I
think live music is one of those kind of
rare moments where you can really be
present um where something about the
anticipation of choosing what show
you're going to go to and then waiting
for the date to come and normally it
happens in the context of community you
go with friends and um and then allowing
yourself to sort of fall into it is is
incredible so you've been training
Jiu-Jitsu yes
trying um I mean I've seen you do
Jiu-Jitsu you're you're extremely you're
you're very like athletic you know you
know how to use your body to commit
violence maybe there's better ways of
phrasing that but anyway it's been a
skill that's been honed over time yeah I
mean um what do you like about
Jiu-Jitsu well first of all I love the
way I came to it it was my daughter um I
think I told you this story she's at 11
she told me that she wanted to learn
self-defense and um and she wanted to
learn how to protect herself which I
just as a mom I was so proud about
because at 11 I was not thinking about
defending myself you know I loved that
she had sort of that desire and
awareness um so so I I called some
friends actually a mutual friend of ours
and asked around for for people who I
could work with in Miami and they
recommended the Valente Brothers Studio
and um you've met all three of them now
they're these remarkable human beings
and they've been so wonderful for our
family I mean first starting with
Arabella I used to take her and then
she'd kind of encourage me and she'd
sort of pull me into it and I started
doing it with her and then um Joseph and
Theo uh saw us doing it they wanted to
start doing it so now they joined and um
then Jared joins so now we're we're all
doing judu and for me there's something
really empowering knowing that I have
some basic skills um to defend myself I
think it's something as humans we've
kind of gotten away from you look at any
other animal and you know even the
giraffe they'll use their neck The Lion
The Tiger every species and then there's
us you know who most of us don't and I
didn't know how to protect myself and I
think that it it gives you a sense of
confidence and also gives you kind of a
sense of calm you know knowing how to
deescalate rather than escalate a
situation I also think as part of the
training
you um you develop more natural
awareness when when you're out and about
and I feel like especially you know
everyone's you get on an elev and like
the first thing people do is pick up
their phone you're walking down the
street they're people are getting hit by
cars because they're walking into
traffic I think as you start to get this
training you become much more aware of
the broader context of what's happening
around you which is which is really
healthy and good as well but it's been
beautiful they actually the Valente
Brothers they have this 753 code that
was developed with some of the sort of
Samurai principles in mind and all of my
kids have memorized it and they'll talk
to me about it at Theo he's eight years
old he'll he'll able to recite all 15 so
you know benevolence and um and Fitness
and Nutrition and flow and awareness and
balance and it's an unbelievable thing
and they'll actually integrate it into
conversations where they'll talk about
something that happen yeah rectitude
courage benevolence resp respect honesty
honor loyalty so this is not about
Jiu-Jitsu techniques or fighting
techniques this is about a way of life
about the way you interact with the
world with other people exercise
nutrition rest hygiene positivity that's
more on the physical side of things
awareness balance and flow it's the mind
the body the soul effectively is how
they break it out and and the kids can
only advance and get their stripes if um
they really internalize this they give
examples of each of them and and my own
kids will come home from school and
they'll tell me examples of how things
happen that weren't aligned with the 753
code so it's it's a
framework much like religion is in our
house and and can be for others it's a
framework to discuss things that happen
in their life large and small and um and
has been beautiful so so I do think that
like Body Mind connection is is super
strong in in Jitsu so there's many
things I love about the Valente Brothers
but one of them is the uh how rooted it
is in philosophy and history of Martial
artarts in general you know a lot of
places you'll practice the sport of it
maybe the art of it but to recognize the
history yeah and what it means to be a
martial artist broadly on and off the
mat that's really great and the other
thing is great is they also don't forget
the self-defense route the actual
fighting routs so it's not just a sport
it's a way to defend yourself on the
street in all situations and that gives
you a
confidence in just like you said an
awareness about your own body and aw
Wess about others yeah it is you know
sadly we forget but there's a it's a
it's a world full of violence or the
capacity for violence so it's good to
have an awareness of that and a
confidence how to essentially avoid it
100% I I've seen it with all of my kids
they've and and myself how much they
benefited from it but um that
self-defense component and the
philosophical elements of you know they
Pedro will often tell them about like
wooe and sort of soft resistance and um
and some of these sort of more Eastern
philosophies that they get exposed to
through through their practice there
that are
um sort of non-resistance that that are
beautiful and and hard Concepts to
internalize as an adult but but
especially um you know when you're 12 10
and and eight respectively so it's it's
and it's been an amazing experience for
us all I love people like Pedro cuz he
he's like finding books that are like in
Japanese and translating them to try to
figure out like the details of a
particular history like he's a he's like
an ultra scholar of martial arts and I
love that I love when people give
everything every part of themselves to
the thing they're practicing yeah you
know people have been fighting each
other for a very long time and I love
from the Coliseum on you can't fake
anything you can't lie about anything
yeah it's it's truly honest you're there
and you either win or lose it's simple
and that's like it's also humbling that
the the reality of that is humbling and
oftentimes in life things are not that
simple not that black and white so it's
nice to have that sometimes that's
that's the biggest thing I gain from
Jiu-Jitsu is getting my getting my ass
kicked which The Humbling and it's nice
to just get humbled in a very clear way
Sports in general are great for that I
think surfing probably I can imagine
yeah just you know yeah face planting
not being able to stay in the board uh
it's humbling and the power of the wave
is humbling uh so just like your mom
you're an adventurer are there your your
bucket list is probably like 120
Pages there are things like just pop to
mind that you're like thinking about
especially in the near future just
anything well I hope it all always is
long you know I hope I've never like
exhausted exploring all the things I'm
curious about I always tell my kids
whenever they say you know Mom I'm
bored only boring people get bored like
there's too much to learn there's too
much to learn so I've got a long one I
you know I think obviously there are
some like immediate tactical you know
interesting things that I'm doing I'm
incubating a bunch of businesses I'm
investing in a bunch of companies that
hopefully I'll always can continue to do
that some of the fun things doing in
real estate now so those are all on the
list of things I'm passionate and
excited about you continuing to explore
and learn but um in terms of the like
the the ones that are more pure sort of
Adventure or hobby I think I'd like to
climb Mount kjaro actually I know I
would um and I the only thing keeping me
from doing it in the short term is I
feel like it'd be such a great
experience to do with my kids um and I'd
love to have that experience with them I
also told Arabella we were talking about
this archery competition that happens in
Mongolia and she loves horseback riding
so I'm like I feel like that would be an
amazing thing to experience together um
I want to get barreled by a wave and and
learn how to play Texas Flood um I want
to see the Northern Lights like I want
to go and and experience that um I feel
like that would
be really
beautiful I want to get my black belt
like
you nice I asked you how long did it
take um but so I want to get my black
belt and Jitsu that's like a that's
going to be a longer term goal but with
within the next
decade
um yeah a lot of things you know I'd
love to go to space I'd like not just
space I think I'd love to go to the moon
like step on the moon yeah or float you
know in close proximity like that famous
photo yeah it's just you and a the space
dud I feel like Mars is at point in my
life well the moon's like 4 days feels
more more manageable I don't know but
the sunset on Mars is blue it's the
opposite color I hair is beautiful might
be worth it I don't know you negotiate
with Theo
yeah let know how let me know how it
goes I think actually just even go in a
space where you can look back on Earth
yeah I think that just to see this
little pale blue dot pale blue dot just
all the stuff that ever happened
and human civilization is on that and to
be able to look at look at it yeah and
just be in awe and I think that's the
thing that will go away I think being
interplanetary my hope is that that
heightens for us
how rare it is what we have like how
precious the Earth
is um I hope that it I hope that it has
that
effect uh because I you know I think
there's a big component to
to interplanetary travel that kind of
TAPS into this kind of manifest destiny
inclination like the human desire to
conquer territory and
expand
um the footprint of
civilization that sometimes feels much
more rooted in like dominance and
Conquest than curiosity wonder
and um and obviously I think there's you
know maybe an existential imperative for
it at some point or um a strategic or
andsecurity one but um but I hope
that what feels inevitable um at this
moment I mean you know Elon Musk and
what he's doing with SpaceX and Jeff
Bezos and others it it feels like it's
not an if it's a it's a when at this
point I hope it also underscores like
the need to protect what we have here
yeah and it's I hope it's the Curiosity
that drives that exploration and I hope
the exploration will give us a deeper
appreciation of the thing we have back
home and that Earth will always be home
and it's a home that we protect and
celebrate what uh gives you hope about
the future of this thing we have going
on human civilization the whole thing I
think I feel a lot of Hope when I'm in
nature I feel a lot of hope
when I am experiencing people
who are good and honest and pure and
true and
passionate and that's not an uncommon
experience so those experiences give me
hope yeah other humans were pretty
cool I love
Humanity we're awesome you know not
always but um but we're a pretty good
species yeah for the most part on the
whole we do all right we do all right we
we create some beautiful stuff and uh I
hope we keep creating and I hope you
keep creating you have already done a
lot of amazing things build a lot of
amazing things uh and I hope you keep
building and creating
and uh doing a lot of beautiful things
in this world Ivanka thank you so much
for talking today thank you Lex thanks
for listening to this conversation with
Ivanka Trump to support this podcast
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description and now let me leave you
with some words from Marcus
aurelus dwell on the beauty of Life
watch the stars and see yourself running
with
them thank you for listening I hope to
see you next time