Kind: captions
Language: en
the ideas that I am talking about are
ideas that are widely supported
everything that I talk about raising the
minimum wage health care for all a tax
system which demands the billionaires
pay their fair share those are all
popular ideas but people didn't know you
got to run for president and have 20,000
people come out to your rallies and win
23 States they H well maybe those eyes
are not ideas are not so crazy after all
and we got to entertain them the
establishment doesn't like that they
really don't they want to tell you and
this is their main This Is How They
succeed what they say Lex is the world
is the way it is it always will be this
way we got the wealth we got the power
and don't think of anything else this is
this is the way it is you you have no
power give up that they don't say it
quite that way but that's really what
the intent is and what we showed is
guess what you know running a a a an
outsider campaign we took on the
Democratic establishment we came close
to winning it and we did win 23 States
and the ideas that we're talking about
are the ideas that workingclass people
young people believe
in the following is a conversation with
Bernie Sanders senator from Vermont and
two-time presidential candidate both
times as the underdog who against the
long odds captivated the support and
excitement of millions of people both on
the left and the right
this is Al Le Freedman podcast to
support it please check out our sponsors
in the description and now dear friends
here's Bernie
Sanders growing up did you ever think
you'd be a politician nope not in a
million
years uh yeah I know that you hate
talking about yourself which is rare for
a politician I would
say what's your philosophy behind that
you like talking about the issues you
talk I mean you know everybody talks
about themselves it's not about me you
know nice guy not a nice guy what's the
what you know politics should be about
as the issues
facing the people of our country the
people of the world and how we're going
to address it that's what it should be
that said there's uh interesting aspects
to your life story for example in uh
1963 you were very active in the Civil
Rights Movement got arrested even for uh
protesting segregation in Chicago and uh
you attended the the famous March on
Washington where MLK gave his uh I Have
a Dream speech well was that like it's
extraordinary I took a bus ride down
with fellow students in the University
of
Chicago and it was a zillion people
there I'm not sure if it was the first
time I'd ever been in Washington in my
life but it was you know it was a very
impressive moment and what he was
talking about with people very often
forget about that it was not only racial
Justice it was jobs jobs and Justice
that was the name of that rally and uh
so it's something I've never forgotten
what what uh influence did he have on
you what did you learn about the way he
uh enacted change in the world King was
a very impressive
guy uh more impressive I think than
people think that he was uh and what he
did is he created his movement from the
bottom on up so was he
developed real organization Grassroots
organization which put pressure on
communities and officials to end seg
ation to open up voting patterns and I
think what has to also be remembered
about King which is really quite
extraordinary is you know he won the
Nobel Peace Prize and every was oh
you're great you're wonderful but then
to the end of his life he took on Lyndon
Johnson on the war in Vietnam and as
soon as he did that suddenly the
editorial Pages throughout America
establishment papers uh no longer
thought he was so great in fact the
message sent out you're black deal with
civil rights don't worry about foreign
policy we'll take care of that but he
said you know if I talk about peace and
nonviolence I can't sit back and allow
what's going on in Vietnam to continue
without speaking out incredible courage
to do that and by the way when he was
assassinated at a uh fighting for the
rights of asme workers Garbage Guys Who
deliver the garbage who were treated
terribly low wages bad working
conditions and went out to support their
right to form a union that's when he got
killed so on the war
front one of the things that uh people
don't often talk about your work in
politics you gave what I think is uh a
truly Brave speech on on the Iraq War in
uh 2002 I
believe uh you voted no on the Iraq
resolution you voted no on the Patriot
Act and uh you basically predicted very
accurately What would happen if we go
into Iraq what was your thinking at the
time behind that those speeches behind
voting no on the Patriot Act on the Iraq
resolution and maybe ironically came out
of maybe the war in Vietnam and the ease
and lies that people told we went into
Vietnam uh under a lie uh we lost close
to 60,000 Americans millions of people
in Vietnam Cambodia died as a result of
that so you think twice about it and
then the war
uh Iraq you had you know people like d
Cheney and others telling us oh they
have nuclear weapons and all that stuff
it's the only way we can resolve the
issue I didn't believe it I didn't agree
with it and you're right turns out
historically uh I was right what's the
way to fight this thing that uh Martin
Luther King tried to fight which is the
military industrial complex it's huge I
mean it gets to the broader issue of
where we are as a nation and what I you
you know almost uniquely in Congress
talk about is the fact that we are
moving Lex to an oligarchic form of
society and not a lot of people are
familiar with that term but what it
means you know we talk about oligarchy
and Russia oh Putin is surrounded by the
oligarchs well guess what what do you
think is happening in the United States
so what you have right now is an economy
with more concentration of ownership
than we've ever had all right that means
whether it's agriculture Transportation
Healthcare whatever it may be fewer and
fewer massively large corporations
control what's produced and the prices
we pay and then you look at our
political system and it's we don't talk
about it what is the reality of the
political system today and that is that
billionaires are spending huge amounts
of money to buy this election in Trump's
campaign you got three uh
multi-billionaires spending over $200
million three people Democrats have
their billionaires not quite as
concentrated but at the end of the day
billionaires play an enormous role in in
terms of electing politicians and in
Washington in determining What
legislation gets seen and not seen but
it's not just single billionaires it's
companies with lobbyists you got it let
me give you one example
lobbyists we pay in the United States by
far the highest prices in the world for
prescription drugs this is an issue I've
been working hard on with some success
take a wild and crazy guess how many
lobbyists are there from the drug
companies in Washington DC well over a
thousand over a thousand right there are
100 members of the Senate 435 members of
the House 535 members of Congress there
are
18800 well-paid lobbyists representing
the drug companies including former
leaders of the Republican and Democratic
party that is why one of the reasons why
we pay the highest prices in the world
for prescription drugs
military-industrial complex you got a
revolving door people go from the
military into the General Dynamics into
LED Martin and the otherw large
companies and what we see there is an
institution in the Pentagon we spend a
trillion dollar a year on the
Pentagon it is the only Federal agency
that cannot is not able to submit to an
independent audit so if you think
there's not massive fraud and waste and
cost overruns in the Pentagon you would
be sorely mistaken do you think most
politicians are corrupt in accepting the
money or is the system corrupt or is it
a bit of both
if the corrupt means that hey you here's
$10,000 vote this way doesn't work like
that very very rare occasionally very
very rare that's corruption what happens
is that if you are in a campaign and
right now the amount of money that
people have to raise you're running for
Senate in Ohio you're talking about 5060
million where the hell you going to get
that money it's not going to be $10
donations you're going to be surrounding
yourself with people who have the money
you're going to go $5,000
uh a plate dinners Etc so you surround
yourself with those people who say oh
these are my problems this is what I
need this is I need a tax break for
billionaires blah blah blah blah so you
become you live in that world they are
your financial support they are in a
sense your your political base so you're
very cognizant of what you do uh in
terms of not upsetting them so it's not
corruption in the sense of people you
know taking envelopes with you know huge
amounts of money to vote a certain way
that very very rarely if ever happens it
is the power of big money to make
politicians dependent on those folks and
that's why you know when I ran for
president but I'm probably maybe most
proud of is the fact that we received
millions and millions of campaign
contributions averaging 27 bucks a piece
I think in 2016 have companies lobbyist
ever try to buy you try to influence you
we don't welcome them into our office I
do deal with these guys but it's usually
on a confrontational tone no so they
don't come in to my office very often
telling me their problems so how do we
fix the system how do we get money out
of politics this is not you know like
many other issues I we don't have to
reinvent the wheel here it exists in
other countries uh if you go to you know
every country has their own election
system but nobody has a system where
billionaires can spend unlimited sums of
money through super Pacs to elect the
candidates of their choice so first
thing you got to do and it it you know
one of the things Lex I found that the
more important the issue the less
discussion there is the less important
the issue the more discussion there is a
number of years ago the United States
Supreme Court in one of its more
pathetic uh decisions pass the the
citizens united decision and what
citizens united decision said is you're
a multi-billionaire you want the freedom
you're a free person in a free country
you want the freedom to buy the
government and how terrible it would be
to deny you the freedom to spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on a
campaign to elect the candidates and
they said that's that's the that's your
freedom and that's what citizens united
is about uh we've got to end that uh in
in my view we move to Public Funding of
Elections that means you want to run for
governor you want to run for Senate show
that you have some support get you know
$5 contributions from X number of people
to show you you're know you're not a
flake uh you have some support and
government will pay certain amount more
and there will be a limited the amount
of money that can be spent so it'll be a
real you can run against me and I'm not
going to outspend you 10 to one that's
what we should be moving toward in my
view how do we make that happen when uh
there's so much money in the system and
the
politicians uh oh to the people who paid
for their election does it have to come
from the very top essentially sort of a
a really strong popular populist
president but you're right you raised
exactly the question if I am getting a
huge amount of money from billionaires
do you think I'm going to go out and
announce I think billionaires should not
be involved in buying elections I doubt
that very much so what you're going to
need and you tell me if I'm missing
something but I pay attention you don't
hear either of the major candidates
talking about that issue do you I think
what happens is when an individual
politician speaks out about it they get
punished but I think this is a popular
idea so if a lot of them speak out
that's why would if it came from the top
if a president was using a very large
platform to basically speak out it
provides a safety blanket for the other
politicians to get it out of the system
but there has to be kind of a mass
movement of it yes it does I mean and
every place I go I I always speak about
the issue and it always people
understand it you're a republican you're
a Democrat you're Progressive you're
conservative who really
believes that we are democracy when
billionaires can spend you know tens and
tens of millions of dollars to to buy
election
so it is a very popular issue it's
important you're right we need political
leaders to be speaking out on that but
we need a Grassroots movement to say
when somebody is at a town meeting
you're running for the Senate you're
running for the house what's your view
on citizens of United are you prepared
to vote to overturn that decision and
and move the Public Funding of Elections
extraordinarily important so uh many of
your policy proposals are quite radical
no they're not I beg to differ okay
great go
through well they're popular so so what
I mean is relative to what the way other
politicians speak it's usually a little
bit more moderate so from everything
you've learned from politics is it
better to go sort of uh radical maybe we
can come up with a different word versus
a more moderate safe ambiguous kind of
policies okay let's let's talk about it
fair enough we talked about one issue
very important money in politics money
yes getting money out of big money out
of politics do you think that's a
radical idea well I mean yeah I it's a
popular idea it's a idea that makes
sense but in order to implement it and
actually make it happen requires uh I
mean to to flip the system upside down
right in that sense it's radical in that
sense it's radical but if you go to walk
down the street here and you say do you
think billionaire should be able to
spend this as much money as they want to
buy politicians I would say nine out of
10 people say that's crazy that's not
what America is supposed to be about so
in that sense it's certainly not radical
let's talk about Healthcare go out on
the street do it we do a poll I've done
the polling is Health Care a human right
should every American be able to go to a
doctor when they need regardless of
their income you know what people say I
would say about 85 90% of the people say
of
course the idea that Health Care is a
human right available to all exists Lex
in every major country on earth except
the United States so you're here with me
in Burlington Vermont right if you got a
call go 50 miles north to Canada walk to
the Canadian you know walk into Canada
and uh ask people when you go to the
hospital how much does it cost to you
which kind of building they say you what
are you talking about doesn't cost us
anything doesn't cost us a nickel that's
the case in virtually every country in
Europe so the idea that Health Care
should be available to all that there
should be no out-of-pocket expense
because it's a human
right uh is widespread around the world
and very much agreed to in this country
bottom line is that because of our
corrupt political system we have a
health care System designed not to
provide Health Care to old people to
make huge profits for the drug companies
and the insurance companies and that is
what's happening and we got to change
that system so I'm a strong Advocate and
I've led the effort on Medicare for all
okay let's talk about Medicare for
all if you could snap your fingers today
and implement the best possible healthc
care system for the United States of
America
uh what would that look like well we
have a pretty good system not great but
a pretty good system in Medicare so it's
it's there for the elderly and Lyndon
Johnson passed that in the 1960s a huge
step forward uh it is being chopped Away
by the private insurance companies
through Medicare Advantage but if you
strengthen Medicare and you do away with
the kind of deductibles the seniors now
have to pay you do away with other stuff
and you say basically right now you're a
senior in America go to any doctor you
want uh you know when you're in the
hospital Medicare will pay the entire
Bill if you expand Medicare to cover
dental hearing and vision which it
doesn't Now cover you do all of those
things and then the next thing you do is
say okay to be eligible for Medicare now
you have to be uh 65 first year we're
going to lower it to 55 then we'll lower
it to 45 then we'll lower it to 35 then
we'll have everybody in the system so I
think in a four or 5e period you can
strengthen medic and have everybody in
the system and when you do that and this
is not just me talking number of Studies
have pointed this out when you take the
profit motive out of it from the
insurance companies and the drug
companies you can end up providing
quality care to all people and no more
than we're spending right now because
right now we are spending twice as much
per personal healthare as the people of
any other Nation incredibly wasable
system so the way to pay for the system
is to increase taxes but you're saying
if you cut that cost and increase the
taxes you're saying it's going here's
the story I've gotten my share of 302
ads attacking me on this Bernie Sanders
wants to raise your taxes on Healthcare
it's true in a progressive way but right
now do you have health insurance yes
okay somebody's paying for your health
insurance it depends if you are working
most people get their health insurance
through their jobs okay so if you're
working for a large company your
employer is paying your health insurance
and by the way that comes out of your
wages health care costs in America are
very high and your employee will tell
you honestly look I can't give you more
than a 3% wage increase because I got a
10% increase in your health care cost
you want that or if you're Union
negotiating you know what they'll say
Hey you want decent wages we're going up
to cut back on your Healthcare that's
what every Union has to deal with you
know every every negotiating session so
we're paying for it through employers
out of pocket we pay through it through
Medicare Medicaid Veterans
Administration Etc
uh what I am proposing is really not
radical it's what exists in Canada and
other countries it is publicly funded
like the police departments and like
libraries are and like public education
is is publicly funded in a progressive
way so right now rather than paying out
of your own pocket if you are uh a
family let's just say you're
self-employed right now and you are uh
you know you want you have a couple of
kids and a wife it could cost you 15
$20,000 a year in insurance cost well
that's all eliminated will you have to
pay more in taxes because you will maybe
it depends on your income level but it
could be that you'll be paying $122,000
more in taxes but not $20,000 more in
premiums co- payments and deductibles
you save money so it's paying taxes
rather than paying money to the
insurance company you got a better deal
through the tax system so the most
painful thing in today's system is the
surprise bills the number one cause of
bankruptcy and uh the psychological pain
that comes from that just worrying
stressed in debt you got it and just
basically afraid constantly of getting
sick because you don't know if insurance
is going to cover it and if you're not
insured you don't know how much it's
going to cost so you're not going to go
to the hospital even if there's
something wrong with you if there's pain
and all that so you just live in a state
of fear psychological fear that's the
number one problem is it's not just
Financial psychological look and I think
you said it very well I you know I'm
chairman of the committee that deals
with this stuff so I talk to a lot of
doctors and doctors in Vermont and all
over this country tell me that they are
astounded people walk into their
offices much sicker than they should
have been and the doctor said why didn't
you come in here six months ago when you
first you know felt your symptoms and
they said well you know I I have a high
deductible of at $10,000 deduct by I
don't have any money to pay I'm
uninsured some of those people don't
make it other people and this is what is
totally crazy they end up in the
hospital at huge expense to the system
rather than getting the care they need
when they needed it so that is how give
you another example of it we pay the
highest prices in the world for
prescription drugs one out of four
Americans can't afford the drugs their
doctors prescribed so you walk into the
doctor's office they say Okay Lex you
got this that and the other thing here's
a prescription you can't afford to fill
it what happens you get sicker you you
end up in the emergency room which is an
extremely expensive proposition okay or
you end up in the hospital could you
know rather than dealing with the
problem when it occurs and and what is
not talked about you know I mentioned
earlier how we don't talk about some of
the major issues the estimate is that
some
60,000 people in America die every
single year unnecessarily because they
can't get to a doctor when they need
because of financial reasons and you
want to hear even crazier one out of
four people who get cancer treat in this
country either go bankrupt or deplete
their financial resources of their
family so your point is right you know
if somebody diagnoses you with cancer
you're scared to death you're worried
about how you're going to live you're
going to die what's going to happen and
then on top of that you got to worry
about whether your family goes bankrupt
how insane and cruel is that so to me
you know I think Health Care is what
unites us all everybody has family they
get sick we'll get born we all die we
all want care and we all have got to
come together to create a system that
works for all of us not just the drug
companies or the insurance companies
there's just so many stories and not
even the horrific stories there
countless horrific stories but just
basic stories of cost like my friend uh
a Doctor Peter Atia has this story where
he happens to be uh wealthy so he can
afford it but he had to take his son to
the emergency room and the son was
dehydrated and the bill was $6,000 they
just did a basic test and gave him an IV
a basic thing and he has really good
insurance and the insurance covered
$4,000 of it so he had to at the end pay
$2,000 for a basic emergency room visit
and there's a lot of families for whom
that one visit for such a simple thing
would be just financially devastating
and you know what people know that and
you know what they say you know
something I don't feel well today yeah
something's wrong I ain't going to go to
that emergency room because I don't want
a $6,000 Bill and what happens he had
insurance that paid two-thirds of it
right yes so what if he didn't and what
happens if he didn't have money he'd be
handed by bill collectors for the rest
of his life so it's a it is a disgusting
system it is an inhumane
system uh but you know the insurance
companies and the drug companies are
very powerful and they make a lot of
campaign contributions have a lot of
lobbyists and we are where we are but
you know I think you know the American
people want fundamental changes there so
that's another good example of a really
popular idea that is not uh implemented
because of the money in got it that's a
wonder and I'll tell you that not only
that not only is it not implemented
because of money it's not even discussed
all right so I'm saying here and no one
disputes me we are spending twice as
much per person on healthare
right and yet 85 million Americans are
uninsured or underinsured and our life
expectancy is lower than virtually every
other major country do you think that
might be an issue that we'd be
discussing
again if a single politician discusses
it they get punished for it so there
needs to be a mass movement and um
probably I mean from my perspective it
has to come from the very top it has to
come from the president and the
president has to be a populist president
where they don't don't care about the
parties with the rich people they just
speak out because they know it's a
popular message and they know it's the
right thing so speaking of that you had
a
historic campaign run for president in
and uh in the eyes of many
people mine included you were screwed
over by the DNC as the especially the
Wikileaks emails showed what's your just
looking back feelings about that are you
angry are you upset yeah of course I'm
angry and of course I'm upset but you
know when you take on in this case the
Democratic
establishment uh who who have controlled
that party forever the moneyed interest
in the Democratic party you know you're
taking on Corporate America when you're
taking on the corporate media and when
you're calling for a political
revolution that creates the government
that works for all and not just a few
you know the opposition is going to be
extraordinary uh but what I am extremely
proud of from that campaign in 2020 as
well is that we took on the anointed
candidate of the
establishment and we showed you know we
showed despite the fact the entire
establishment I had in the Senate I had
one
supporter there were 50 Democrats I had
one supporter I had no Governors
supporting me I think maybe a few people
in the house but we took on the whole
political establishment and we did you
know we got millions of votes and and
the ideas that we brought forth uh were
ideas that they had to eventually deal
with one way or another and if you look
at the American Rescue plan which I'm
proud to I've helped right uh during the
midst of Co a lot of the ideas that we
fought for were implemented in that bill
and I want to make them obviously
permanent and you almost won and a lot
of people thought that you would win
against uh Donald Trump I think we would
have I think we would have um you know I
think Trump is a very you know I think
he's a little bit crazy between you and
me but he is a smart politician and is
appealing to a lot of the anger uh that
workingclass people feel and you know
what workingclass people should feel
angry but they should make sure that
their anger is directed in the right
direction and not against people who are
even worse off than they are which is
what demagogues like Trump always do so
you know I think we had as I went around
the country then and and now we have a
lot of support from workingclass people
who understand that there is something
wrong and this is an incredible fact
that no one talks about all right I'm
going to ask you a question are you
ready for this Lex let's go here we go
over the last 50 years there's been a
massive increase in worker productivity
as a result of Technology right everyone
agrees that and it's I don't know
exactly what is but the worker today is
producing a lot more than the worker 50
years ago doing something
similar is the worker today in real
inflation accounted for dollars making
more money than that worker 50 years
ago well there's a lot of close
arguments there but I your point is well
taken it's either the same or a little
bit higher or a little bit lower
depending on the statistics it has not
increased significantly and the wealth
inequality has increased significantly
that is the point so you would think
that if a worker is producing a lot more
that worker would be better off would be
working lesser hours Etc that hasn't
been the case and what has happened in
that 50 years is according to the Rand
Corporation there has been a 50 trillion
trillion with a t redistribution of
wealth from the bottom 90% to the top 1%
so you got CEOs today making 300 times
more than their workers you got three
people on top owning more wealth than
the bottom half of American society so
that's why people are angry and they're
worried that their kids may have a lower
standard of living than they in the
wealthiest country in the history of the
world so there's a lot of anger out
there and I think we tap some of that
anger in a constructive way essentially
saying you know what we don't need so
few to have so much in wealth and power
let's distribute it more fairly in
America I got to get back to 2016
because it's such a historic moment so
there's a lot of fans of
yours that uh wanted you to keep
fighting because you forgave in the end
the establishment and joined them in
support and your fans wanted you keep
fighting for a takeover for a
progressive takeover of the democratic
party um if you just look back and had
to do it all over again what would you
do different well by the way in terms of
a take over the Democratic party we did
try we ran do you know who Keith Ellison
is Keith is now the Attorney General uh
of the state of Minnesota he's doing a
great job really one of the outstanding
attorneys Generals in the country uh and
Keith was then a member of Congress and
we ran Keith to become the head of the
DNC and the
establishment from the president of the
United States on down when C easy and
they beat him by a few votes not a whole
lot um so it's look you you face and you
know that's the exact same position that
many of us are in right today so people
say well why did you support Hillary
Clinton yeah what's the alternative
Donald Trump I think Donald Trump is an
extremely dangerous person trying to
undermine American democracy so I can't
support him you know Hillary Clinton
obviously his views are very very
different than mine uh but that in that
moment you know that's where politics
becomes really tricky and it ain't easy
and uh you know sometimes you have to do
things that you're not really all that
excited about but I think it was right
to try to do what I could to prevent
Trump from getting uh uh elected and in
2020 I did the same with Biden and we
had more success with Biden than we had
with Clinton well there's this
interesting uh story about a long timec
coming meeting between you and Obama in
uh 2018 I believe so Ari rabenhof who
was a former deputy campaign manager
wrote a great book I would say about you
called the Fighting Soul on the road
with Bernie Sanders and uh he tells many
great stories but one of them is your
meeting with Obama and he says that
Obama told you Bernie I wish I could do
a good Obama impression uh Bernie you're
an Old Testament Prophet a moral voice
for our party giving us guidance here's
the thing though prophets don't get to
be King Kings have to make choices
prophets don't are you willing to make
those choices basically Obama is making
a case that you have to sort of um
moderate your approach in order to win
so was was Obama right look and again
that's why politics is very
very fascinating you know sometimes you
can run and lose and you really win if
your goal is not just individual power a
transforming
Society uh one of my heroes you
mentioned Dr Martin Luther King Jr who
is one of my heroes another one of my
heroes is Eugene Victor Debs that ring a
bell yeah yes okay for many reasons yes
all right Debs many listeners may not
know who Debs was Debs was a union
organizer in the early 1900s helped form
the American Railway Union ran for
president I think five times
ran the last time while he was in a jail
cell because of his opposition to World
War I and got a million votes doing that
Debs lost badly in every race that he
ran in 1932 Franklin Del Roosevelt ran
for president and much of what Roosevelt
ended up doing was at least some of what
Debs had talked about Debs helped lay
the groundwork for ideas so sometimes
you can lose and win if you're into
transforming uh Society what my view is
where I disagree with Obama is I think
you have got to raise Consciousness
among Ordinary People and when people
know what's going on and are prepared in
an organized way to fight for change
they can make incredible changes and
we've seen that in recent years you know
today we take for granted well we have a
woman running for president of the
United States so I'm supporting uh we
have had other women running for
president we have women Governors and
Senators not so many years ago in the
United States Senate there were 98 men
two women all right even before that
1920 it was when women got the right to
vote how did that change how did women's
role in society change it changed
because women and their male allies
stood up in fors gay rights I you know
old enough to remember that anybody I
knew who was gay you think they would
talk about it come out about it no they
wouldn't that's changed um we have seen
you know in terms of civil rights
massive
changes uh change happens when people at
the Grassroots level demand that we
talked about Healthcare a moment ago we
will get Universal Medicare for all when
millions of people make it clear that's
what they want so I believe politics
thoughts at the Grassroots level and
that's how you got to bring about change
so just to go back to Obama though in
many ways he too is a singular historic
figure in American politics who has
brought about a lot of change he's a
symbol I think that would be remembered
for a long time uh what do you um what
do you admire most about Obama well you
know I know him we're not best friends
but I know him well and we chat every
once in a while first of all don't
underestimate what it was uh in 2008 to
be the first black president in the
history of this
country uh and I think few would deny
that he's an extraordinarily intelligent
guy uh very very articulate one of the
best speakers that there is in America
and that he and his family and again
it's a lot harder than it looks he and
his family for eight years that's his
wife Michelle and his kids uh
really held that
office in in in a way that earned I
think the respect of the American people
even if people disagree with him
politically um so he deserves and again
don't ever don't
underestimate I think you know years ago
there were people who said a black
president in our lifetimes never going
to happen can't happen to racist the
country he did it and that is a huge
accomplishment uh and I think you know
he has had some significant achievements
uh in his presidential tenure uh he and
I you know did disagree is on on on a
number of issues I think he will tell
you I think his public stance is that
yeah if you had to start all over again
he would do Medicare for all Single
Payer but where we are right now the
best he could do is the Affordable Care
Act well we disagree on that and we
disagreed on other things but you know I
think uh he deserves an enormous amount
of credit for what he has accomplished
and he like you also gave a a damn good
speech opposing the Iraq War before uh
before running for president and that
takes courage yes it does but then it
also shows that once you get into office
it's not so easy to oppose or to work
against the military industrial complex
it is very hard that people do not fully
appreciate how powerful The
Establishment is whether it is the
healthc care
industry uh whether it's the military
industrial complex whether it's the
fossil fuel industry these people have
unlimited amounts of money they are very
smart lobbyists in Washington DC and
they are very very greedy people they
want it all I have to ask you about
capitalism the pros and cons so you
wrote a book it's okay to be angry about
capitalism that is a a thorough rigorous
criticism of
I would say hyper capitalism yes that's
right a certain kind of capitalism that
uh you argue that we are existing in
today in the United States but a lot of
people would attribute to
capitalism all the amazing technological
innovations over the past 70 plus years
that have contributed to U increase in
quality of life in uh GDP in uh decrease
in poverty decrease in uh infam
mortality increase in uh expected life
life expectancy so what are the sort of
how do you uh see the tension the pros
of capitalism and the cons of capitalism
you know some of my European friends
they say you know Bernie in the United
States you're considered to be very
radical if you were here in you know
France or uh Denmark or someplace you'd
be kind of mainstream left guy yeah not
all that radical so this is what I think
I mean I think the best that we could do
right now where we are right now now is
to create a society which does two
things it encourages
Innovation but at the same time it makes
sure that all people in a wealthy Nation
have a decent standard of living in some
countries if you look at Scandinavia and
this shocks people because we don't talk
about this at all so in Scandinavia has
been the case you know Denmark Finland
Norway for years that people
have Healthcare that's not a big de you
end up in the hospital so what they
don't pay a
bill you have and this shocks people in
America right now we have people who get
one week two weeks off paid vacation
sometimes people get nothing you know
that there are people out there have no
vacation at all you know in in Germany
you get six weeks paid vacation and
other holidays as well people are
shocked by that in America we don't have
paid Family and Medical Leave the only
major country not to do it you know
other countries you know your wife gets
sick you stay home with her uh your kids
get sick not a big deal you get a
certain amount of Paid Family and
Medical Leave cost to prescription drugs
are far more affordable so what you want
to do is create what's called a social
safety net that means I don't care what
your income is of course you're going
have healthc care is a human right of
course you're going to have housing that
is Affordable of course your kids are
going to have great quality education
from Char K University without much cost
you know every country has a little bit
different but there are countries in the
world right now I think in Germany I
think college is now tuition free as I
recall uh for for obvious reasons they
want to have the best educated Workforce
they can so in terms of government
playing a role in a civilized Democratic
Society of providing all basic needs
Healthcare education housing uh
retirement benefits yes that is what
we've got to do now does that mean then
that the government is going to run
every mom and pop store in the corner of
course not you want Innovation you want
you know you want to go out and start a
business produce a product good luck to
you make money but on the other hand in
terms of even making money we want you
to be able to do that come up with good
products good services but do I think
you should end up with a hundred billion
dollar no I don't and you know what's
funny I had uh I did an interview with
Bill
Gates who is I think the third well the
guy in the
country uh struggling behind uh musk and
Bezos I think and he's only worth 100
plus billion but he gets by and I said
to him Bill he was supposed to ask me
questions I asked him the question I
bill tell me something you know you're
an innovator with Microsoft and all that
stuff did you know that you become a
multi-billionaire and was that motivated
you that one motivated you and he said
no and I believe he was honesty I love
doing what I love programming and I was
a kid he started doing that he loved it
he was motivated by it
do you think that there are scientists
out there who working day and night
trying to develop drugs to deal with
Alzheimer's or cancer that they're
motivated oh boy if I come up with this
drug I'm become a billionaire so I think
you know we want to reward success fine
but you don't need a billion dollars we
want people to get satisfaction from
what they accomplish the work they're
doing whether it's cleaning the street
or developing a new you know drug so I
think we have gone a little bit too far
and you're right in talking about the
book was an attack on I call you call it
hyper capitalism or Uber capitalism but
right now and this is not an American
issue this is a global issue you know
it's on an accident that musk is over
there in Saudi Arabia talking to the you
know trillionaire families in the mid
East these guys that were Putin and his
friends you got a probably not more than
you know 5 10,000 extraordinarily
wealthy families who have unbelievable
economic power over 7 billion people on
this planet well Elon Musk is actually
an interesting case because he's
investing all the money back into the
businesses so uh I think there is a
balance to be struck and you just spoke
to it which is we can still celebrate
even big companies that are bringing
wealth to the world that are building
cool stuff that are improving quality of
life but we can question of why is it
that the working class does not have a
living wage in many cases and sort of
trying to find that balance that's right
that is the look I am no great fan of
Elon mus espe especially in the role
that he's playing right now in Trump's
campaign but is he a brilliant guy of
course he is does he work like a dog of
course he does does he come up with
these incredible Innovations in
companies yes he does does he Z your
credit for that yeah he does but you
know even in terms of encouraging
Innovation I would hope that we are
focusing on the important issues I would
love to see great innovators figure out
how we build the affordable housing that
we need come up with the great drugs
that we need to solve many of the
terrible illnesses
uh that plague people climate change for
God's sakes all right do we need
Innovation you know we're making good
some progress in this country should we
do more what kind of Technologies out
there can really cut back on on on
carbon uh emissions so you know I hope
we focus on some of the most important
issues that impact Humanity but you know
reward innovators I don't have a problem
with that but I do have a problem when
three people end up owning more wealth
at the bottom half of American society
maybe you can briefly speak to something
you tweeted recently about about Donald
Trump going to McDonald's and the
minimum wage I believe of
$75 can you just speak to that tweet
look nothing new Trump didn't invent it
it's a called a photo opportunity I've
done one or two in my life too so you go
to a place he puts on an apron he Good
Old Donald Trump just another McDonald's
work up but anyhow he was aine he did
his photo up that's fine KLA Harris was
in North Carolina handing out food to
people who were victims of the the the
hurricane fine that's what politicians
do
but some reporter asked them they said
you know Mr
Trump uh are you for raising the minimum
wage and that was a fair question
because she got I don't know how many
but many many thousands of McDonald's
workers and millions of other American
workers right now are trying to get by
on 9 10 11 bucks an hour federal minimum
wage is seven and a quarter you have
people working in McDonald's right now
for sure who are working for 12 13 bucks
an hour so the reporter said how you
know what do you think about raising the
federal minimum wage and he oh these are
great workers I love McDonald's so forth
he didn't answer the question well I
think that in the richest country in the
history of the world if you work 40
hours a week you should not be living in
poverty and that means we should have a
federal minimum wage not absurdly 7 and
a quarter an hour but in my view $17 an
hour will that solve all the economic
problems for workingclass people no it
won't it'll help it'll help since
running for president you've often been
attacked especially from the right about
being worth I believe $2 million and
owning uh three houses so for my
perspective the answer to that is most
of your wealth has been earned from
writing books and selling those books
and uh you are one of the most famous
politicians in the world and uh so your
wealth in the context and comparison to
other people of that Fame level and
other politicians is actually quite
modest so what's your response usually
to those attacks do I own three
residences yeah I do I live here in
Burlington Vermont we live in a m middle
class neighborhood nice
house
uh guess what I'm a United States
Senator and I own a home in Washington
DC as do most Senators you know you live
there year after year when I first went
to actually when I was in Congress for
16 years I rented all the time but I got
elected okay got a six-year term you
know what let's buy a house so we bought
a house and guess what what like many
thousands of people in the state of
Vermont I have a summer camp it's a nice
one on Lake Champlain that's it now how
did I get the money you're right I wrote
two best-selling books including this
book on capitalism it was New York Times
bestseller for a while and uh also
another book was a youth book and that's
and I make I don't know 175,000 a year
uh and that's more or
less how I became the zillionaire that I
am I should also mention that sometimes
the word Mansion is used and I think
your residences are quite modest uh at
least houses in in they're not you know
they're middle class hous is very nice
house so when you started in politics I
read you were worth $11,100 not much
yeah that much that's right has uh the
increase in wealth uh changed your
ability to relate to the working class
oh it's a good question and obviously
growing up in a workingclass
family uh has been maybe the most
singularly
significant aspect of my politics it's
you know I grew up without money in a
family that lived in a rent control
Department in Brooklyn New York so that
has impacted me I'll tell you I don't
really give a damn about money I drive a
car that's 11 years old you know it's an
old car and money here's my jewelry it's
a solar watch nice in my wedding ring
that's about it I don't have a Rolex
watch would not be interested in it but
I'll tell you what is has impacted me my
wife who also grew up in a working-class
family will tell you the same we don't
worry you raised that issue you know if
we have to go to the doctor if our kids
have to go to the doctor we go to the
doctor I don't spay up nights worrying I
used that there was a time I have to
worry about how to pay my electric bill
I don't worry about that anymore so what
has happened that stress that economic
stress of not worrying about a financial
disaster that's gone and that is
enormous I you know maybe as much more
than any other member of the Senate work
hard not only for but with workingclass
people I'm chairman of the committee
deals with labor issues we have been
involved probably in dozens of strikes
all over this country I've been on
picket lines so you know I do my best
it's a very easy trap to fall into you
can get separate separated from ordinary
people and their struggles not hard to
do uh I try as hard as I can not to do
that so sometimes people say can money
buy happiness I think I agree with you
that that worry sort of being able to
fill up your car and not worry about how
much it's going to cost or be able to
get food for dinner and not worry uh
about how much it's going to
cost uh or even uh you know I've been
very I've been poor most of my life and
I've been very fortunate recently to
have enough wealth to not worry about
health care to have insurance and be
able to afford an emergency room visit
and that worry is just such a giant lift
off your shoulders Le I think you said
it very well I remember even to and I
saw this change in
myself when I used to go and I do the
grocery shop my wife does a lot of the
cooking I do the grocery shop I used to
look at the prices of everything I I I
do that less now you I say what the hell
so what it cost 50 cents more for this
can of stuff so what uh but that's a
luxury you have when you don't have to
worry about that and I don't have to
worry about it but your point is again
to
me I don't like big fancy cars or big
fancy homes don't go on my wife will
tell you we've not been on a real
vacation for God knows how long cuz I I
work pretty
hard but the major thing about having
money which is enormously but is just
what you said uh I don't have to worry
if somebody in my family gets sick uh I
don't have to worry about it I don't
have to worry about putting food on the
table or paying the mortgage so that's
that's what money has done okay uh let
me ask you about uh the future of the
democratic party so one of the biggest
impacts you've had is you've been the
fuel the Catalyst for the increase of
the progressive caucus the Progressive
Movement within the Democratic party um
do you think that is the future the the
the progressives even uh Democratic
Socialist leaders will take over the
party that is the most important
question regarding to my mind American
politics one of the successes that we've
had and I'm proud to have played a role
in this is that if you go to the House
of Representatives right now you will
see almost a 100 members of the
progressive caucus LED very well by a
woman from Washington Prima jaul does a
great job you know that's people like
Alexandra AIA Cortez uh andan Omar and
many others many of them are young often
women people of color and many of them
come from workingclass backgrounds so
what we have been able to do in recent
years elect a number of strong
progressives who represent Working
Families very very effectively
the struggle in the Democratic party is
between the corporate wing and the
progressive
wing and you know the corporate Wing
takes a whole lot of money sees its
salvation in getting a whole lot of
money uh from wealthy
individuals uh and you know large
corporations and is not very vigorous in
my view uh in representing the needs of
workingclass people if they were we
would have healthc care for all
we would have a minimum wage that was a
living wage we would not have a housing
crisis we would not have a tax system in
which billionaires pay an effective tax
rate that is lower than a truck driver
or a nurse so I think one of the reasons
that Trump has had political success is
he it's not so much his ideas most
working-class people don't think we
should give tax breaks to billionaires
or worry about the size of you know
Arnold Palmer's gentia
uh but they are angry people ar