Kind: captions
Language: en
I mean look we're adding a trillion
dollars to the national debt every 100
days right now and it's now passing the
size of the defense department budget
and it's compounding and it's pretty
soon it's going to be adding a trillion
dollars every 90 days and then it's
going to be adding a trillion dollars
every 80 days and then it's going to be
a trillion dollars every 70 days and
then if this doesn't get fixed at some
point we enter a hyperinflationary
spiral and we become Argentina or Brazil
and the following is a conversation with
Mark andreon his second time on the
podcast Mark is a Visionary Tech leader
investor who fundamentally shaped the
development of the internet and the tech
industry in general over the past 30
years he's the co-creator of Mosaic the
first widely used web browser co-founder
of Netscape co-founder of the legendary
Silicon Valley venture capital firm
andreon Horwitz and is one of the most
influential voices in the tech world
including at the intersection of
technology and
politics this is Freedman podcast to
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in the description and now dear friends
here's Mark and
Reon all right let's start with
optimism if you were to imagine the best
possible one to two years 2025 26 for
tech for big Tech and small Tech what
would it be what would it look like lay
out your vision for the best possible
scenario trajectory for America the
Roaring 20s the roaring
20s I mean look couple things it is
remarkable over the last several years
with all of the issues including you
know every not just everything in
politics but also Co and every other
thing that's happened it's really
amazing the United States just kept
growing if you just look at economic
growth charts the US just kept growing
and very significantly many other
countries stopped growing so Canada
stopped growing the UK has stopped
growing Germany has stopped growing and
you know some of those countries may be
actually going backwards at this point
and there's a very long discussion to be
had about what's wrong with those
countries and there's of course plenty
of things that are wrong with our
country but um the US is just Flatout
primed for growth um and I think that's
a consequence of many factors um you
know some of which were are lucky and
some of which through hard work and so
the lucky part is just you know number
one you know we just have like
incredible physical security by being
our own continent um you know we have
incredible natural resources right
there's there's there's this running
joke now that like whenever it looks
like the us is going to run out of some
like Rare Earth material you know some
farmer in North Dakota like kicks over a
hay bale and finds like a $2 trillion
deposit right I mean we're just like
blessed you know with with with
geography and with natural resources um
energy you know we can be energy
independent anytime we want um this last
Administration decided they didn't want
to be they wanted to turn off American
Energy this new Administration has
declared that they have a goal of
turning it on in a dramatic way there's
no question we can be energy independent
we can be a giant net energy exporter
it's purely a question of choice um and
I think the the new Administration is
going to do that um and so we and oh and
then I would say two other things one is
um you know we we are the beneficiaries
and you know you're an example of this
for a beneficiary for the beneficiary of
you know 50 100 200 years of like the
basically most aggressive driven
smartest people in the world most
capable people you know moving to the US
and raising their kids here um and so we
just have you know by far the most
dynamic you know we're by far the most
dynamic population most aggressive um
you know we're the most aggressive set
of characters in certainly any in any
Western Country and have been for a long
time and certainly are today um and then
finally I would just say look we are
overwhelmingly the advanced technology
leader um you know we we have our issues
and we have a a particular issue with
manufacturing which we could talk about
but for you know anything in software
anything in AI anything in um you know
all these you know Advanced biotch all
these Advanced areas of Technology like
we're we're by far the leader again in
part because many of the best scientists
and engineers in those fields you know
you know come to the US um and so we we
we just we have all of the preconditions
for a uh for just a monster um boom you
know I could see economic growth going
way up I could see productivity growth
going way up rate of Technology adoption
going way up and then we could we can do
a global tour if you like but like
basically all of our competitors have
like profound issues and you know we
could kind of go through them one by one
but the the competitive landscape just
is it's like it's it's remarkable how U
how how much better positioned we are
for growth what about the humans
themselves almost a philosophical
questions you know I travel across the
world and there's something about the
American Spirit the entrepreneurial
Spirit that's uniquely intense in
America I don't know what that is uh
I've talked to Saga who claims it might
be the Scots Irish blood that runs
through uh the history of America what
is it you at the heart of Silicon Valley
is there something in the water why is
there's this entrepreneurial Spirit yeah
so is this a family show or am I allowed
to swear you you can say whatever the
fuck you want okay so the T the great TV
show succession the show of course that
with which you were intended to root for
exactly zero of the characters yes the
best line from succession was in the
final episode of the first season when
the whole family is over in uh Logan Roy
and Cal homeland of Scotland and they're
at this Castle you know for some wedding
and Logan is just like completely
miserable after having to you know
because he's been in New York for 50
years he's totally miserable being back
in in um in Scotland and he gets in some
argument with somebody and he's like my
he says finally just says my God I
cannot wait to get out of here and go
back to America where we can fuck
without
condoms uh was that a metaphor or okay
exactly right and so no but it's exactly
the thing and then everybody instantly
knows what like everybody watching that
instantly starts laughing cuz you know
what it means which is it's exactly this
I think there's like an ethnographic you
know way of it there's a bunch of books
on like all like you said the Scots
Irish like all the different derivations
of all the different ethnic groups that
have come to the US over the course of
the last 400 years right but it's and
what we have is this sort of
amalgamation of like you know the you
know the the Northeast you know Yankees
who were like super tough and hardcore
yeah the Scots Irish are super
aggressive you know we've got the you
know the southerners and the Texans uh
you know and the and you know the sort
of you know whole kind of Blended you
know kind of Anglo Hispanic thing with
you know super incredibly tough strong
driven you know capable character
you know the Texas Rangers um you know
we've got the yeah we've got the
California you know we've got the you
know the wild we've got the incredibly
you know inventive hippies but we also
have the hardcore Engineers we've got
you know the best you know rocket
scientists in the world we've got the
best you know artists in the world you
know creative professionals you know the
best movies um and so yeah there there
there is you know the the the the you
know say all of our problems I think are
basically you know in my view to some
extent you know attempts to basically
sand all that off and make everything
basically boring and mediocre but there
is something in the National spirit that
basically keeps bouncing back and it and
and basically what we discover over time
is we we basically just need people to
stand up at a certain point and say you
know it's time to you know it's time to
build it's time to grow you know it's
time to do things um and so and there's
something in the American Spirit that
just like Worth right back to life and I
and I've seen it before I actually saw
you know I I saw it as a kid here in the
in the early 80s um you know because the
the the 70s were like horribly
depressing right in the in the US like
it was they were a nightmare on many
fronts and in a lot of ways the last
decade to me has felt a lot like the'
70s just being mired in misery um and
just this self-defeating you know
negative attitude and everybody's upset
about everything and you know and then
by the way like energy crisis and
hostage crisis and Foreign Wars and just
demoralization right um you know the low
point for in the 70s was you know Jimmy
Carter who just passed away he went on
TV and he gave this speech known as the
Malay speech and it was like the weakest
possible trying to like Rouse people
back to a sense of like passion
completely failed and you know we had
the you know the hostages in you know
Iran for I think 440 days and every
night on the Nightly News it was you
know lines around the block energy
crisis depression inflation and then you
know Reagan came in and you know Reagan
was a very controversial character at
the time and you know he came in and
he's like yep nope it's morning in
America and we're The Shining City on
the hill and we're going to do it and he
did it and we did it and the national
Spirit came roaring back and you know
roared really hard for a full decade and
I and I think that's exactly what I
think you know we'll see but I think
that's what could happen here and I just
did a super long podcast on Milton
Friedman with Jennifer Burns who's this
incredible professor at Stanford and he
was part of the Reagan so some there's a
bunch of components to that one of which
is economic yes and one of which maybe
you can put a word on it of not to be
romantic or anything but Freedom uh
individual Freedom economic freedom
political freedom and just in general
individualism yeah that's right yeah you
know America has this incredible streak
of individualism you know individualism
in America probably PE I think between
roughly call it the end of the Civil War
1865 through to probably call it 1931 or
something um you know and there was this
like incredible r i mean that period you
know we now know that period is the
Second Industrial Revolution and it's
when the United States basically assumed
Global Leadership and basically took
took over technological and economic
leadership from from England um and then
you know that that led to you know
ultimately then therefore being able to
you know not only industrialize the
world but also win World War II and then
win the Cold War um and yeah you know
there's a massive industrial you know
massive individualistic streak um by the
way you know Milton fre Milton fredman's
old videos are all on YouTube they are
every bit as compelling and inspiring
yeah um as they uh as they were then um
you know he's he's a singular figure and
many of us you know have you know I
never knew him but um he was at actually
at Stanford for many years at the Hoover
institution but uh I never met him but I
know a lot of people who worked with him
and you know that you know he was he was
a singular figure but his his all all of
his lessons you know live on or fully
available um but I would also say it's
not just individualism and this is you
know one of this is one of the big
things it's like playing out in a lot of
our culture and kind of political fights
right now which is you know basically
this feeling you know certainly that I
have and I share with a lot of people
which is it it's not enough for America
to just be an economic zone um and it's
not enough for us to just be individuals
and it's not enough to just have line go
up and it's not enough to just have
economic success there are deeper
questions uh at play and and and also
you know there there there's more to a
country uh than just that and and you
know quite quite frankly a lot of it is
intangible um a lot of it is you know
involves Spirit um and passion and you
know I said we we have more of it than
anybody else um but um you know we we
have to choose to want it the way I look
at it is like all of our problems are
self-inflicted like they're you know
decline is a choice you know all of our
problems are basically demoralization
campaigns you know basically people
telling us people in positions of
authority telling us that we should you
know we shouldn't you know stand out we
shouldn't be adventurous we shouldn't be
exciting we shouldn't be exploratory you
know we shouldn't you know this that and
the other thing and we should feel bad
about everything that we do and I think
we've lived through a decade where
that's been the prevailing theme and I I
think I think quite honestly as of
November I think people are done with it
if we could go on a tangent of a tangent
since we're talking about individualism
and that's not all that it takes you've
mentioned in the past the book the
ancient city yes by if I can only
pronounce the name French historian
num I don't know that was amazing okay
all right from the 19th century anyway
you said this is an important book to
understand who we are and where we come
from so what that book does it's
actually quite a striking book um so
that book is written by this guy um as
a I'm let let Lex do the pronunciations
the foreign language pronunciations for
the day um he was a professor Classics
um at uh the sbon in um in uh Paris you
know the top university uh at um in the
in the actually in the 1860s so actually
R around after the US Civil War and he
was a Sant of a particular kind which is
he and you can see this in the book as
he had apparently read and you know sort
of absorbed and memorized every possible
scrap of Greek and and Roman literature
um and so it's like a walk like index on
basically Greek and Roman everything we
know about Greek and Roman culture and
that's significant the reason this
matters is because basically none of
that has changed right and so he he he
had access to the exact same R materials
that we have we have access to and so
there you know we've learned nothing and
then specifically what he did is he
talked about the Greeks and the Romans
but specifically what he did is he went
back further he reconstructed the people
who came before the Greeks and the
Romans and what their life and Society
was like and these were the people who
were now known as the as the
indo-europeans and these were you may
heard to these these are the people who
came down from the steps and so they
they they came out of what's now like
Eastern Europe like around sort of the
outskirts of what's now Russia um and
then they sort of swept through uh
Europe they ultimately took over all of
Europe by the way you know almost many
of the ethnicities in the Americas the
hundreds of years that follow you know
are Indo European and so like you know
they were this basically this Warrior
basically class that like came down and
swept through and and um and you know
essentially um you know populated much
of the world um and there's a whole
interesting Saga there but what he does
and then they basically they from there
came basically what we know is the
Greeks and the Romans were kind of
Evolutions off of that um and so what he
reconstructs is sort of what like was
like what life was like at least in the
West for people in their kind of
original social State and the
significance of that is the original
social state is this is living in the
state of the absolute imperative for
survival with absolutely no technology
right like no modern systems no nothing
right you've got the clothes in your
back you've got your you know you you've
got whatever you can build with your
bare hands right this is you know
predates basically all concepts of of of
Technologies we understand them today
and so these are people under like
maximum levels of physical survival
pressure and so what what social p did
they evolve to be able to do that and
then the social pattern basically was as
follows um is a a three-part social
structure family um tribe and city um
and um zero concept of individual rights
um and essentially no concept of
individualism and so you were not an
individual you were a member of your
family and then a set of families would
aggregate into a tribe and then a set of
tribes would aggregate into a um into a
city um and then the morality was
completely it was actually what n talks
n talks about the morality was entirely
Master morality not slave morality and
so in their morality anything that was
strong was good and anything that was
weak was bad and it's very clear why
that is right it's because strong equals
good equals survive weak equals bad
equals die and that led to what became
known later as the Master Slave
dialectic which is you it more important
for you to live on your feet as a master
even at the risk of dying or are you
willing to um you know live as a slave
on your knees in order to not die and
this is sort of the the derivation of
that moral framework Christianity later
inverted that moral framework but you
know the the original framework lasted
for you know many many thousands of
years no conserv individualism the head
of the family had total life and death
control over the over over the family
the head of the tribe same thing head of
the city same thing and then you were
morally obligated to kill members of the
of the other cities on on contact right
right you were morally required to like
if you didn't do it you were a bad
person um and then the form of the
society was basically maximum fascism
combined with maximum communism right
and so it was maximum fascism in the
form of this like absolute top- down
control where the head of the family
tribe or city could kill other members
of the community at any time with no
repercussions at all so maximum
hierarchy but combined with maximum
communism which is no market economy and
so everything gets shared right and and
sort of the point of being in one of
these collectives is that it's a
collective and and and you know and
people are sharing and of course that
limited how big they could get because
you know the problem with Communism is
it doesn't scale right it works at the
level of a family it's much harder to
make it work at the level of a country
impossible maximum fascism maximum
communism and then and then it was all
int intricately uh tied into their relig
religion and their their religion was it
was in two parts it was uh veneration of
ancestors um and it was veneration of
Nature and the veneration of ancestors
is extremely important because it was
basically like basically the ancestors
were the people who got you to where you
were the ancestors were the people who
had everything to teach you right and
then it was veneration of nature because
of course nature is the thing that's
trying to kill you um and then you had
your ancestor every family tribe or city
had their ancestor gods and then they
had their um they had their nature Gods
okay so fast forward to today like we
live in a world that is like radically
different but and the book takes you
through kind of what happened from that
through the Greeks and Romans through
the Christianity and so the but but it's
very helpful to kind of think in these
terms because the conventional view of
the progress through time is that we are
you know the cliche is the Arc of the
moral Universe you know benro Justice
right or so-called wig history which is
you know that the Arc of progress is
positive right and so we we you know
what you hear all the time what you're
taught in school and everything is you
know every year that goes by we get
better and better and more and more
moral and more and more Pur and a better
version of of ourselves our Indo
ancestors would say oh no like you
people have like Fallen to shit like you
people took all of the principles of
basically your civilization and you have
deluded them down to the point where
they barely even matter you know and
you're having you know children out of
wedlock and you're you know you
regularly encounter people of other
cities and you don't try to kill them
and like how crazy is that and and they
would basically consider us to be living
like an incredibly diluted version of
this sort of Highly religious highly
cult-like right highly organized highly
fascist fascist communist Society I
can't resist no
that as a consequence of basically going
through all the transitions we've been
through going all the way through
Christianity coming out the other end of
Christianity nature declares God is dead
we're in a secular society you know that
still has you know tinges of
Christianity but you know largely Prides
itself on no longer being religious in
that way um you know we being the sort
of most fully evolved modern secular you
know expert scientists and so forth have
basically re-evolved or Fallen back on
the exact same religious structure uh
that the indo-europeans had uh
specifically ancestor worship which is
identity politics um and nature worship
which is
environmentalism um and so we have
actually like worked our way all the way
back to their cult religions without
realizing it and and and it just goes to
show that like you know in some ways we
have fallen far from the far from the
family tree but in some in some cases
we're exactly the same you kind of
described this Progressive idea of
wokeism and so on as uh worshiping
ancestors identity politics is
worshiping ancestors right it's it's
it's tagging newborn infants with either
you know or responsibilities or you know
levels of condemnation based on who
their ancestors were the Indo Europeans
would have recognized it on
site we somehow think it's like super
socially Progressive yeah and it is not
I mean I would say obviously not you
know get get nuanced which is where I
think you're headed which is look like
is the idea that you can like completely
reinvent Society every generation and
have no regard whatsoever for what came
before you that seems like a really bad
idea right that's like the cambodians
with year zero under P pot and you know
death you know follows it's obviously
the Soviets tried that
um you know the the you know the the
utopian fantasists who think that they
can just rip up everything they came
before and create something new in The
Human Condition in human society have a
very bad history of of causing you know
enormous destruction so on the one hand
it's like okay there there is like a
deeply important role for tradition and
and and the way I think about that is
it's the process of evolutionary
learning right which is what what
tradition ought to be is the distilled
wisdom of all and and you know this is
how IND Europeans thought about it
should be the distilled wisdom of
everybody who came before you right all
those important and Powerful learned um
and that's that's why I think it's
fascinating to go back and study how
these people lived is cuz that's that's
part of the history and you know part of
the learning that got us to where we are
today having said that there are many
cultures around the world that are you
know mired in Tradition to the point of
not being able to progress um and in
fact you might even say globally that's
the default Human Condition which is you
know a lot of people are in Societies in
which you know there's like absolute
seniority by age you know kids are
completely you know like in the US like
for some reason we decided kids are in
charge of everything right and like you
know they're the trend setters and
they're allowed to like set all the
agendas and like settle the politics and
settle the culture and maybe that's a
little bit crazy but like in a lot of
other cultures kids have no voice at all
no role at all because it's the old
people who are in charge of everything
you know they
gerres and it's all a bunch of
80-year-olds running everything which by
the way we have a little bit of that too
right um and so I I would say is like
there's a down there's there's a real
downside you know full traditionalism is
communitarianism you know it's ethnic
particularism um you know it's ethnic
chauvinism it's um you know this
incredible level of of resistance to
change um you know that's I mean it just
doesn't get you anywhere like it it may
be good and fine at the level of
individual tribe but it's a societ
society living in the modern world you
can't evolve you can't you can't Advance
you can't participate in all the good
things that you know that that have
happened and so you know I think
probably this is one of those things
where extremeness on either side is
probably a bad idea um and I but you
know but but this needs to be approached
in a sophisticated and Nuance
way so the beautiful picture you painted
of the Roaring
20s how can the Trump Administration
play A Part and making that future
happen yeah so look a big part of this
is getting the government boot off the
neck of the American economy the
American Technology industry the
American people um you know and then
again this is a replay of what happened
in the 60s and 70s which is you know for
what started out looking like you know
I'm sure good and virtuous purposes you
know we we ended up both then and now
with this you know what I what I
describe as sort of a form of soft
authoritarianism you know the good news
is it's not like a military dictatorship
it's not like you know you get thrown
into Lu Bianca you know for the most
part it's not coming at four in the
morning you're not getting dragged off
to a cell so it's not hard
authoritarianism but it is soft
authoritarianism and so it's this you
know incredible suppressive blanket of
Regulation rules you know this concept
of a ocracy right what's required to get
anything done you know you need to get
40 people to sign off on anything any
one of them can veto it you know a lot
of how now political system works um and
then you know just this general idea of
you know progress is bad and technology
is bad and capitalism is bad and
building businesses is bad and success
is bad um you know tall poppy syndrome
you know basically anybody who sticks
their head up you know deserves to get
it you know chopped off anybody who's
wrong about anything deserves to get
condemned forever you know just this
this very kind of you know grinding you
know repression and then coupled with
specific government actions such as
censorship regimes right and Deb banking
right um and you know Draconian you know
deliberately kneecapping you know
critical American Industries um and then
you know congratulating yourselves in
the back for doing it or you know having
these horrible social policies like
let's let all the criminals out of jail
and see what happens right um and so
like we we've just been through this
period I you know I call it a
demoralization campaign like we've just
been through this period where you know
whether it started that way or not it
ended up basically being this
comprehensive message that says you're
terrible and if you try to do anything
you're terrible and fuck you um and the
Biden Administration reached kind of the
full Pinnacle of that in in in our time
they they got really bad on on many
fronts at the same time um and so just
like relieving that um and getting kind
of back to IR reasonably you know kind
of optimistic destructive um you know
progrowth frame of mind um there's just
there's so much pent up energy and
potential in the American system that
that alone is going to I think cause you
know growth and and and and and spirit
to take off and then there's a lot of
things proactively that yeah and then
there's a lot of things proactively that
could be done so how do you Rel that to
what degree has the thing you describ
ideologically permeated government and
permeated big companies disclaimer first
which is I don't want to predict
anything on any of this stuff because
I've learned the hard way that I can't
prct predict politics or Washington at
all um but I would just say that the the
plans and intentions are clear and the
Staffing supports it um and all the
conversations are consistent um with the
new Administration and that they plan to
take you know very rapid action on a lot
of these fronts very quickly they're
going to do as much as they can through
executive orders and then they're going
to do legislation and and Regulatory
changes for the rest and so they're
they're going to move I think quickly on
a whole bunch of stuff you can already
feel I think a shift of the national
Spirit or at least let's put it this way
I feel it for sure in in Silicon Valley
like it it you I mean we we you know we
just saw a great example of this with
what you know with what Mark Zuckerberg
is doing um you know obviously I'm I'm
involved with with his company but you
know we we just saw it kind of in public
the scope of and speed of the changes
you know are are reflective of of sort
of this of a lot of these shifts but I
would say that that same conversation
those same kinds of things are happening
throughout the industry right and so the
the tech industry itself whether people
were Pro Trump or antitrump like there's
just like a giant Vibe shift mood shift
that's like kicked in already and then I
was with a group of Hollywood people
about two weeks ago um and they were
still you know people who at least at
least vocally were still very antitrump
but I said you know has anything changed
since since November 6 and they they
immediately said oh it's completely
different um it feels like the Isis Tha
um you know woke us over um you know
they said that all kinds of projects are
going to be able to get made now they
couldn't before that you know
Hollywood's going to start making
comedies again you know like it it they
were just like it's like it's like a
just like an incredible immediate uh
environmental change and I'm as I talk
to people kind of throughout you know
certainly throughout the economy people
who run businesses I I hear that all the
time which is just this this last 10
years of misery is just over I mean the
one that I'm watching that's really
funny I mean Facebook's getting a lot
meta is getting a lot of attention but
the other funny one is Black Rock which
I'm not which you know and I don't know
him but I've watched for a long time and
so you know the Larry fin who's the CEO
of Black Rock was like first in as a
major you know investment CEO on like
every dumb social Trend and Rule set
like every all right I'm going for it
every
retarded every retarded thing you can
imagine yeah every ESG and every like
every possible saddling companies with
every aspect of just the these crazed
ideological positions and you know he
was coming in he literally was like had
AG aggregated together trillions of
dollars of of of of of of shareholdings
that he did not that were you know that
were his his customers rights and he you
know seized their voting control of
their shares and was using it to force
all these companies to do all of this
like crazy ideological stuff and he was
like the tyho Mary of all this stuff in
Corporate America and and he in the last
year has been like backpedaling from
that stuff like as fast as he possibly
can and I saw just an example last week
he pulled out of the whatever the
corporate Net Zero Alliance you know he
pulled out of the crazy energy energy
energy stuff and so like you know he's
backing away as fast as he can he's
doing remember the Richard prior um
backwards walk Richard PRI had this way
where he could he could back out of a
room while looking like he was walking
forward um and so um you know even
they're doing that um and just the whole
thing I mean I if you saw the court
recently ruled that NASDAQ had these
crazy board of directors composition
rules one of the funniest moments in my
life is when my friend Peter teal and I
were on the the The Meta board
and these NASDAQ rules came down
mandated diversity on corporate boards
um and so we sat around the table and
had to figure out you know which of us
counted as diverse and the um very
professional Attorneys at at meta
explained with a 100% complete um
straight face that Peter teal counts as
diverse uh by virtue of being
LGBT and and this is a guy who literally
wrote a book called The diversity myth
yeah um and he literally looked like he
swallowed alive
goldfish um and and that and this was
imposed I mean this was like so
incredibly offensive to that like it
just like it was just absolutely
appalling and I felt terrible for him
but the look in his face was very funny
um and it was imposed by NASDAQ you know
your Stock Exchange imposing the stuff
on you and then the court whatever the
court court of appeals just nuked that
you know so like the these things
basically are being like ripped down one
by one and and and what's on the other
side of it is basically you know finally
being able to get back to you know
everything that you know everybody
always wanted to do which is like run
their companies have great products
happy customers you know like succeed
like succeed achieve outperform um and
you know work with the best and the
brightest and not and not be made to
feel bad about it and I I think that's
happening in many areas of American
society it's great to hear that Peter
teal is fundamentally A diversity higher
well so it was very you know there was a
moment so so Peter you know Peter of
course um you know is is uh you know is
publicly gay has been for a long time
you know but you know there are other
men on the board right and you know
we're sitting there and we're all
looking at it and we're like all right
like okay LGBT and we just we keep
coming back to the B right um and it's
like
you know it's like all right you know
I'm willing to do a lot for this company
but it's all about sacrifice for
diversity well yeah and then it's like
okay like is there a test like you know
um so oh yeah exactly how do you prove
it the questions that got asked you know
what are you willing to do yeah and I
I've become very good at asking um uh
lawyers uh completely absurd questions
with a totally straight face and do they
answer with a straight face law
sometimes okay I think In fairness they
have trouble telling when I'm joking so
you mentioned the the Hollywood folks
maybe people in Silicon Valley and Vibe
shift maybe you can speak to um
preference falsification what do they
actually believe how many of them
actually hate Trump what like what
percent of them are uh feeling this Vibe
shift and are interested in uh creating
the Roaring 20s in the way they've
described so first we should maybe talk
po population so there's like all of
Silicon Valley um and and the way to
just measure that is just look at voting
records right and and and what that
shows consistently Silicon Valley is
just a you know at least historically my
entire time there has been
overwhelmingly majority just straight up
Democrat um uh the other way to look at
that is political donation records and
again you know the political donations
in the valley you know range from 90 to
99% you know to one side um and so you
know we'll we'll I just bring it up
because like we'll see what happens with
the voting and with donations going
forward um I we maybe talk about the
fire later but I can tell you there is a
very big question of what's happening in
Los Angeles right now um I don't want to
get into the fire but like it's
catastrophic and you know there was
already a rightward shift in the big
cities in California and I think a lot
of people in LA are really thinking
about things right now as they're trying
to you know literally save their houses
and save their families um but you know
even in San Francisco there was a big
right there was a big shift to the right
in the voting um in um in 24 so we'll
see where we'll see where that goes but
you know you observe that by just
looking at looking at the numbers over
time um the part that I'm more focused
on is you know and I don't know how to
exactly describe this but it's like the
top thousand or the top 10,000 people
right um and um you know I don't have a
list but like it's the you know it's all
the top Founders top CEOs top Executives
top Engineers top VCS you know and then
kind of into the ranks um you know the
people who kind of build and run the
companies um and there there you know I
don't have numbers but I have a much
more tactile feel you know for for for
what's happening um so I the big thing I
I have now come to believe is that the
idea that people have beliefs is mostly
wrong um I think that most people just
go along um and I think even most high
status people just go along and I think
maybe the most high status people are
the most prone to just go along because
they're the most focused on status um
and the way I would describe that is um
you know one of the great forbidden
philosophers of our time is the uni
bomber uh Ted kazinski and amidst his
madness he had this extremely
interesting articulation you know he was
a he was a he was an insane lunatic
murderer but he was also you know at
Harvard Super Genius um not that those
are in Conflict
um but shot fired yeah but uh he it was
a very bright guy and he he did this
whole thing um where he talked about
basically he he was very right-wing and
talked about leftism a lot um and he had
this great concept that's just stuck in
my mind ever since I read it which is
see this concept just called over social
overs
socialization um and so you know most
people are social most people are
socialized like most people are you know
we live in a society most people learn
how to be part of a society they give
some different to society there's
something about modern Western Elites
where they're over socialized um and
they're just like overly oriented
towards what other people like
themselves you know think um and believe
and you can get a real sense of that if
you have a little bit of an outside
perspective which I just do I think as a
consequence of where I grew up um like
even before I had the views that I have
today there was always just this weird
thing where it's like why does every
dinner party have the exact same
conversation why does everybody agree on
every single issue why is that agreement
precisely what was in the New York Times
today um why are these positions not the
same as they were 5 years
ago right um but why does everybody like
Snap into agreement every step of the
way and that was true when I came to
Silicon Valley and it's just as true
today 30 years later and so I I think
most people are just literally take I
think they're taking their cues from
it's some combination the press the
universities the big foundations so it's
like basically it's like the New York
Times Harvard the Ford foundation and
you know I don't know um you know a few
CEOs um and a few public figures and you
know maybe you know maybe the president
if your parties in power and like
whatever that is everybody just
everybody who's sort of good and proper
and Elite and good standing and in
charge of things and a sort of correct
member of you know let's call it Coastal
American society everybody just believes
those things and then you know the two
interesting things about that is number
one there's no Divergence among the the
organs of power right so Harvard and Ne
believe the exact same thing the New
York Times The Washington Post believe
the exact same thing the Ford foundation
and the Rockefeller Foundation believe
the exact same thing Google and you know
whatever you know Microsoft believe the
exact same thing um but those things
change over time but there's never
conflict in the moment right um and so
you know the New York Times And The
Washington Post agreed on exactly
everything in 1970 1980 1990 2000 2010
and 2020 despite the fact that the
specifics changed radically the the lock
step was What mattered um and so I I
think basically we we in the valley
we're on the tail end of that in the
same way Hollywood's on the tail end of
that and the same way New York's on the
ta end that the same way the media's on
the tail end that it's it's like some
sort of collective H mind thing and I
just go through that to say like I don't
think most people in my Orbit or you
know let's say the top 10,000 people in
the valley or the top 10,000 people in
La I don't think they're sitting there
thinking basically I have rocks I mean
they probably think they have rockle
beliefs but they don't actually have
like some inner core of rockle beliefs
and then they kind of watch reality
change around them and try to figure out
how to keep their beliefs like correct I
don't think that's what happens I think
what happens is they conform to the
belief system around them and and I
think most of the time they're not even
aware that they're basically part of a
herd is it possible that the surface
chatter of dinner parties underneath
that there is a turmoil of ideas and
thoughts and beliefs that's going on but
you're just talking to people really
close to you or in your own mind and the
socialization happens at the dinner
parties like uh when you go outside the
inner circle of one 2 3 four people who
you really trust then you start to
conform but inside there inside the mind
there is an actual belief or a struggle
attention with the New York Times or
with
the uh for the listener there's a
there's a slow smile that overtook Mark
Andre's face so look I'll just tell you
what I think which is at at at the
dinner parties and at the conferences no
there's none of that um it's what what
there is is that all of the heretical
conversations anything that challenges
the status quo um any heretical ideas
and any new idea you know is a heretical
idea um any deviation it's either just a
one-onone face to face it's it's like a
whisper Network it's like a real life
social network there's a secret
handshake which is like okay you meet
somebody and you like know each other a
little bit but like not well and like
you're both trying to figure out if you
can like talk to the other person openly
or whether you have to like be fully
conformist it's a joke oh yeah humor
somebody cracks a joke right somebody
cracks a joke y if the other person
laughs the conversation is on yeah yeah
if the other person doesn't laugh back
slowly away from the scene
yeah I didn't mean anything by it yeah
right by the way it doesn't have to be
like a super offensive joke it just has
to be a joke that's just up against the
edge of one of the use the S bankman
freed term one of the shth you know it
has to be up against one of the things
um of um you know one of the things that
you're absolutely required to believe to
be the dinner parties and then and then
at that point what happens is you have a
peer-to-peer Network right you have you
have you have a a onetoone connection
with somebody and then you you have your
you have your your your little
conspiracy of thought thought
criminality um and then you have your
you probably been through this you have
your network of thought criminals and
then they have their network of thought
criminals and then you have this like
delicate mating dance as to whether you
should bring the thought criminals
together M right um and the dance the
fundamental uh mechanism of the dance is
humor yeah is humor like CU right well
of course memes yeah well for two for
two reasons number one number one humor
is a way to have deniability right humor
is a way to discuss serious things
without without without with having
deniability oh I'm sorry it was just a
joke right so so that's part of it which
is one of the reasons why comedians can
get away with saying things the rest of
us can't is you know they can always
fall back on oh yeah I was just going
for the laugh but the other key thing
about humor right is that is that
laughter is
involuntary right like you either laugh
or you don't and and it's not like a
conscious decision whether you're going
to laugh and everybody can tell when
somebody's fake laughing right and this
every professional comedian knows this
right the laughter is the clue that
you're onto something truthful like
people don't laugh at like made up
bullshit stories they laugh cuz like
you're revealing something that they
either have not been allowed to think
about or have not been allowed to talk
about right or is off limits and all of
a sudden it's like the ice breaks and
it's like oh yeah that's the thing and
it's funny and like I laugh and then and
then of course this is why of course
live comedy is so powerful as cuz you're
all doing that at the same time so you
start to have right the safety of you
know the safety of numbers and so so the
comedians have like the all there no no
surprise to me like for example Joe has
been as successful as he has because
they have they have this hack that the
you know the rest of us who are not
professional comedians don't have but
but you have your in-person version of
it yeah and then you got the question of
whether the whether you can sort of join
the networks together and then you've
probably been to this is you know then
at some point there's like a different
there's like the alt dinner party uh the
ther middle dinner party and you get six
or eight people together and you join
the networks and those are like the
happiest Mo at least in the last decade
those are like the happiest moments of
everybody's lives cuz they're just like
everybody's just ecstatic cuz they're
like I don't have to worry about getting
yelled at and shamed like for every
third sentence that comes out of my
mouth and we can actually talk about
real things um so so that's the live
version of it and then the and then of
course the other side of it is the you
know the group chat the group chat
phenomenon um right and then this and
then basically the same thing played out
you know until until Elon bought X and
until substack took off um you know
which were really the two big
breakthroughs in free speech online the
same Dynamic played on online which is
you had absolute Conformity on the
social networks like literally enforced
by the social networks themselves
through censorship and and then also
through cancellation campaigns and
mobbing and shaming right and and but
then you had but but then group chats
grew up to be the equivalent of s do
right anybody who grew up in the Soviet
Union under you know communism know you
know they had the hard version of this
right it's like how do you know who you
could talk to and then how do you
distribute information and you know like
you know again that was the hard
authoritarian version of this and then
we've been living through this weird
mutant you know soft authoritarian
version but with you know with some of
the same patterns and what's app allows
you to scale it make it more efficient
to uh to build on these uh groups of
heretical ideas bonded by humor yeah
exactly well and this is the thing and
well this is kind of the running joke
about group the running running kind of
thing about group chats it's not even a
joke it's true it's like it's like every
group chat if you noticed this like
every this principle of group chats
every group chat ends up being about
memes and humor and the goal of the game
the game of the group chat is to get as
close to the line of being actually
objectionable yeah as as you can get
without actually tripping it right and
like literally every group chat that I
have been in for the last decade even if
it starts some other direction what ends
up happening is it becomes the Absolute
Comedy Fest where but it's walking they
walk right up the line and they're
constantly testing and every once in a
while somebody will trip the line and
people will freak out and it's like oh
too soon okay you know we got to wait
till next year to talk about that you
know they they walk it back and so it's
that same thing and yeah and then group
chats is a technological phenomenon it
was amazing to see because basically it
was number one it was you know obviously
the rise of smartphones then it was the
rise of the of the the new messaging
services
um then it was the rise specifically of
I would say combination of What's Happen
signal and the reason for that is those
were the two the two big systems that
did the full encryption um so you
actually had you actually felt safe and
then the real breakthrough I think was
disappearing messages uh which hit
signal probably four or five years ago
and hit WhatsApp three or four years ago
and then the combination of um the
combination of encryption and um uh and
disappearing messages I think really
unleash it well then there's the fight
then there's the fight over the the the
length of the disappearing mess mes
right and so it's like you know I often
get behind my my thing so I set to 7day
you know disa messages and my friends
who you know are like no that's way too
much risk yeah it's got to be a day and
then every once in a while somebody will
set it to five minutes before they send
something like particularly inflammatory
yeah 100% well what I mean one of the
things that bothers me about what's up
the choices between 24 hours and you
know 7 days one day or seven days and I
I have to have an existential crisis
deciding yes whether I can last for
seven days with what I'm about to say
yeah exactly now of course what's
happening right now is the big thaw
right and so the VIP shift so what's
happening on the other on the other side
of of the election is you know Elon on
Twitter two years ago and now Mark with
Facebook and Instagram and by the way
with the continued growth of substack
and with other you know new platforms
that are emerging you know like I I
think it may be you know I don't know
that everything just shifts back into
public but like a tremendous amount of
the uh a tremendous amount of the
verboten um uh