Kind: captions
Language: en
The following is a conversation with
Jack Weatherford, anthropologist and
historian specializing in Djangghaskhan
and the Mongol Empire. He has written a
legendary book on this topic titled
Jenis Khan and the making of the modern
world. And he has written many other
books including Emperor of the Seas,
Kubla Khan and the Making of China,
Jangghask Khan and the Quest for God,
The Secret History of the Mongol Queens,
and other excellent books. I've gotten
to know Jack more after this
conversation, and I cannot speak highly
enough about him. He's a truly
brilliant, thoughtful, and kind soul.
This was a huge honor and pleasure for
me. This is the Lex Freedman podcast. To
support it, please check out our
sponsors in the description and consider
subscribing to this channel. And now,
dear friends, here's Jack Weatherford.
Jenghis Khan, born in approximately
1162,
became the conqueror of the largest
contiguous empire in history. But before
that he was a boy named Teigjin who at 9
years old lost everything his father his
tribe living in poverty abandoned to the
harshness of the Mongolian step from a
boy with nothing to the conqueror of the
world. though tell me about this boy his
childhood and uh the Mongolian step from
which he came from
>> the story of Jenis Khan like the story I
think of all of us it doesn't begin at
birth it begins that's the beginning of
life the story begins long before birth
and sometimes it can be many generations
before and sometimes only shortly before
but I think with Jenga Khan a crucial
thing is to understand how his parents
met and then how he was conceived and
that is that one day
a cart was coming across the Mongol
territory and only women drove carts.
Men rode horses. Women also rode horses
but women owned the houses which were
called gears, the tents. They owned all
the household equipment and so they had
to have carts for moving back and forth.
And the fact that a cart was moving
meant that some woman was moving from
one place to another. And in fact her
husband was with her. She was a new
bride and her husband
uh was on a horse close to her. So what
happened was a man named Yasuk. Yasuk
the future father of Jenghaskhan. Yasuk
was up on a hill. He was hunting with
his falcon. The words of the secret
history of the Mongols were very clear.
And he looked down and he saw her and he
could barely glimpse her. He knew she
was young and she was a new bride. And
he rode back to camp. He got his two
brothers and they came racing down. And
they came and first the husband
of the woman looked around and he
decided to flee. Not because he was a
coward, but he figured he would probably
pull the men after him. They would chase
him. And they did. They chased him. He
went far away. He circled around. He
came back. He arrived back at the cart
where his wife was. Her name was Erlun.
And Erlun had time to think while he was
riding around being chased by the
Mongols. And she decided
that it's more important for him to
live. And she told him when he came
back, you must flee. If you stay here,
they will kill you and they will take
me. But if you flee, they will take me,
but you will have the chance to find
another wife. There are many women in
the world. You find one and you call her
hulan after my name and you remember me
when you're with her. Was a very
dramatic moment. And he rode away and he
looked back and forth and it said that
the pigtails or the braids that were
hanging down were whipping back and
forth from his chest to his back. Uh he
was divided obviously in whether he
should go or stay. But the three men
were approaching again. and they were
headed straight for the cart this time.
And they came in and they took Erlun.
She didn't say a word until her husband
was over the ridge. And when he was over
the ridge and she could no longer see
him, she began to scream and whail. And
one of the brothers said to her,
"Doesn't matter if you shake the waters
out of the river and if you shake the
mountains with your screaming, you will
never see this man again." And he was
right. And that was the moment that
Jenis Khan's mother and father met.
That's the beginning of his story in
this kidnapping. And it's going to
reverberate. every detail of it will
come back again and again not only
throughout the story of the life of
Ching Han but it's going to continue on
with the feuds and the issues caused by
it all the way into the future and to
some extent in certain parts of the
world you could say it still exists.
>> So the meeting is fundamentally uh sort
of a mixture of heartbreak and dark
criminal type of kidnapping. Yes.
>> And from that is conceived this
conqueror of the the biggest contiguous
empire in history.
>> What I was really interested in was
how did this happen? Who was this
person? As as Wsworth wrote in his poem,
you know, the child is father of the man
and it's the childhood that created him
and it's that episode that was before he
was born. But all the things that
happened throughout his childhood
made him into the man that he became.
And so he was now suddenly
this unusual situation was created where
a child is going to be born to a
kidnapped woman who is being held by
strange people. The Mongols, they were
not her people. Uh and he already had
another wife or husband. He had a wife
named Soigo. He had at that time already
one son. Later he had another son with
her. It was a very odd situation. And in
fact the father Yasuk wasn't even there
when Timujin was born. He was off
fighting the Tatars. And during this
campaign against the Tatars, he killed
two Tatars. One of them was naming
Timujin U, which is sort of person of
iron is what it means from the Turk.
but today part of also Mongolian
language.
So he came back, he had a baby and he
decided to name him Timuin, the person
of iron or iron man we might call him
>> after the man he killed.
>> After the man he killed. So he has a
kidnapped mother. She's a second wife
now. Not a legal wife, but just a second
kidnapped wife. And he's named for
someone his father just killed. It was
not auspicious beginning. And in fact,
just episode after episode in his
childhood was inospicious.
The father and mother moved camp one
time when he was quite young and somehow
they overlooked him and forgot him. He
was left behind. So here's this young
child. We don't know what age but could
have been around four or five I think.
He was left behind and as it turned out
some other people the titute found him
and then they kept him for a while and
eventually he was reunited with his
father and mother and it's very odd to
me that I never have any inkling of a
spark of relationship much between the
father and the son
because then when he when Timuin is 8
years old his father decides to take him
off to find a wife, which finding a wife
in the Mongolian terms means you give
the child to that family or you give the
boy to that family and he will live with
them and they will raise him up and they
will train him the way they want before
he can marry their daughter. And so he's
taking him off at age eight, but he
didn't take the other son from the other
wife, Becker.
He was keeping him. There was something
about Timujin having been lost once and
found by the titute and reunited with
the family and now his father takes him
off at age eight and he was going to
take him to his to Erlun's family but he
never made it. He stopped with another
family. It's sort of like the first
family came across and uh in the words
of the secret history it's a sort of
like instant love that there was fire in
his eyes and fire in her eyes and he saw
this girl Bura who was about 9 years old
a little older and he wanted to stay
there with that family according to the
story and so the father left him there
with that family
but on the way home
the father decided
He saw a drinking party and he decided
to join them. They were Tatars. He hid
his identity on the step. Everybody kind
of figures out who everybody is or they
figured out who he was and supposedly
they poisoned him. He got on his horse
and was able to ride back home, but
within a few days he died.
So now
Tamujin is off living with another
family
and uh somebody comes from his family a
family not a relative but a close person
named Mongluk comes to get him take him
back
and they make it through the winter.
They make it through the winter. Mother
Erloom by now she has four sons and one
daughter. I think the daughter had
already been born or the daughter was
going to be born not too long after
that. But they make it through the
winter.
The spring comes and of course the clan
is going to move to a new camp. They go
to spring camp from winter camp and they
have a a ceremony for the ancestors and
they started the ceremony but they did
not tell Erlun.
And so she came and she was angry that
she had been left out. And the old women
said, "You're the one for whom we do not
have to call. We will feed you if you
come, but we do not have to take care of
you." Letting her know that as a cap as
a captive woman, she was not a real wife
in their view.
And that was really the signal that when
they moved camp, they were not taking
her with them. And they packed up and
they took her animals.
They took the animals. But she at that
moment she still had one horse for a
moment and she jumped on the horse and
she took the banner of her husband and
she raced around the people and the
banner after death contains the soul of
the person s it's called and so she
raced around and they were a little bit
nervous and so they camped for one night
and they waited until it was dark
then they took off and this time one of
the friends of the family came running
out to try to stop them and they killed
killed him and Tamujin cried. He was a
little boy, 8 years old. There was
nothing he could do. He's just a little
boy. And now that family is left there
on the step, four children, possibly
five already.
Such the other woman with two children.
They're all left there to die on the
step. When the winter comes, they will
surely all die.
How do they make it through the winter?
>> Mother Erlun, in the words of the secret
history, she pulled her hat down over
her head. She took her black stick and
she ran up and down the banks of the
river, digging out roots to feed the
gullet of her brood.
She fed them through the winter. She
found foods, digging up whatever she
could, finding whatever she could,
everything she could. And even at his
young age, Tamutin was already beginning
to go out to collect things to he could
get fish. He could do a few tasks to
help feed the family. It was an
extremely awful struggle at this point,
but she saved every one of the children.
So Timin's early years were marked by
loneliness, abandonment and uh struggle.
>> Yes. Even after this uh he was kidnapped
at one point by taichiude people. He was
kidnapped
and we would say I think the correct
word reinsslaved. They put him into a
kank a yolk like a like a ox would wear.
And so his two arms are in it and his
head is in it and he's trapped in this
thing. And every night he would be taken
to a different gear to be guarded by
that family. And one night there was a
little celebration. So most of the
people are drinking. And he's left with
a boy who's not very smart.
And Tamujin managed to take the canank,
the wooden yolk that he's trapped in,
and use it as a weapon by turning it
around very quickly and hitting the boy
in the head, knocking him out. That was
one of the first lessons for the
Mongols, that uh anything that moves is
a weapon. This is going to go on for
generations. Very important for the
Mongols. If it moves, it's a weapon. He
did that. He raced off in the night and
he jumped into the river to hide. He's
still got a can on him. He's still
trapped under there. The people are
looking for him. They come out and
they're up and down the river and he's
hiding underneath the water for the most
part, trying to breathe as best he can,
but it's dark and it protects him a
little bit. They give up and they say,
"Okay, we'll come back tomorrow." He
can't possibly escape. But
the next day he knew one family that he
thought he could go to and uh he was
right. He went to that family and at
great risk to themselves. They in fact
were a captive family of the Taiote and
at great risk to themselves they uh
managed to saw off the can and then burn
it in their fire and they gave him food
to escape and then he had to go find his
family again.
So this is the kind of life
that this boy Tim Tamujin had.
>> So he just to be clear his the neck is
trapped and the hands are trapped.
>> We think that's how it is. We just have
the word. They don't say the head and
the hands. We know that his body is
trapped in it. But from all evidence we
have, it's the hands and the head.
>> And he's running around deeply alone
with this thing.
>> Yes. Yes.
and then he has to go out and find
wherever his family is. So this in part
was the foundation of his breaking with
Mongol tradition that kinship is
>> yes
>> the most important thing above all else
because here is his life story where
he's abandoned over and over and over
>> by his father's own brothers see the men
who kidnapped her they had an obligation
under Mongol law and custom to marry her
when her husband died. They did not.
they should take care of her and her
children because her children are the
children of their brother. They count as
the sons of the clan or they should but
no they had all deserted all betrayed
him. He learned very early on that you
cannot trust family.
>> You mentioned that uh Jenis Khan's
childhood
uh Timin was marked by extreme tribal
violence. Can you describe sort of the
state of affairs in the step? How much
violence is there? How much kidnapping
is there?
>> The story of Timujin is not a unique
story for that time. Now, as an as an
isolated family of outcasts, of course,
he's not participating in the various
feuds and the raids of the people around
them, but they are constantly raiding in
the winter. and for women and for horses
and for any kind of valuables that they
can find. It's almost like their way of
getting trade goods from China that one
group raids the other in order to find
out whatever they have for textiles or
for metal. Mongols produce nothing. They
they could produce felt to make their
tents, but they were not craftsmen. And
so they had to get these items from
somewhere and it was through raiding.
And so even in the genealogy of Timuin,
you see going back generation after
generation of women having been
kidnapped, children born who are not
necessarily the father's child, and it's
unclear who the father was. And all of
these issues go back for a long time.
Later, Changan will realize once he
becomes Ching Han, he will realize that
the true source of most of the feuding
on the step is over women. And later he
will outlaw the kidnapping of women and
the sale of women in part not only
because of what had happened to his
mother
but what happened to him next in his
life. And this is one of the things you
talk about this in some ways the love
story
with his wife was her kidnapping was the
defining. If you could point to one
place where Jenis Khan the conqueror was
created, it's that point, his wife being
kidnapped. Can you can you describe
first of all his love for this woman and
what that means and what the kidnapping
of her meant?
>> At age 16,
Bertha, the girl he had met when he was
8 years old and she was nine, she's now
17. and she and her mother come.
It
It's hard to even imagine what it was
like for this 16-year-old boy who has
suffered these indignities of life in
every way that you can imagine. And
suddenly here is the love of his life
who's going to be living with him,
making him happy. He has somebody who
loves him. It's not just his mother
running around getting food and trying
to feed the five children and plus the
the other uh wife and her two children.
No, he has somebody who loves him. And
it's all the excitement that you can
imagine with the fire in the eyes and
the excitement and then
it only lasts a few months.
And so there they are and there's a lady
visiting them. We don't know exactly who
she is, but just they called her
grandmother Kawakin. Granny Kauan is
there and Granny Kauin is sleeping of
course on the floor of the gear the tent
and early in the morning she feels the
vibrations in the earth
and she knows that horsemen are coming.
She rouses the family and mother Erlloon
is in charge. Mother Erlloon is still in
charge even though Timujin is now
married. She puts all of her children on
a horse and she takes the baby girl
Tamulin in her own lap
and she has one extra horse.
But she won't take Bursta because she
knows she doesn't know who the men are.
She has no idea. But they're coming.
They're coming in the dark. They're
coming for a woman. They know there's a
girl there. this family of outcasts has
acquired a wife and they know that
they're coming for that. And so she
leaves Sigo, the other wife. She leaves
this old lady, Granny Kolakin, who
actually has her own cart. And she
leaves Bursta. They pile into Granny's
cart, and it's only an ox to pull it, so
they don't get too far before the
attackers get there. But Mother Erlin is
right. She's able to get her children
off to the mountain and to Bharat Haldun
to the mountain side away from them
because the men are so focused on this
cart and finding out how many women are
in there and who they are and all. So
mother eroon
saved her family
but at a cost suddenly
Timbuin realizes
he has obeyed his mother but he's lost
the most important thing in his life and
I do think this is the defining moment
of his life the story began back when
his mother was kidnapped but now the
kidnapping of his wife I think it's the
def what will he do what should he do?
What can he do? Is he going to just
resign himself to it?
Is he going to go out look for another
wife?
And he decides that life is not worth
living without Bura. He has found
something good in this life. And if he
has to die trying to get her back, he
will die trying to get her back.
>> And this is the early steps of the
military genius.
born because in order to get her back
requires
an actual organization of troops.
>> He needs allies.
>> Allies.
>> He goes to a man who ruled a Karat
people in central Mongolia kind of on
the river about where the capital Ulamat
is today. He goes there because that Van
Han is the name or Toalhan. He goes
there because Wanghan had uh been the
lord over his father at one point and
his father had gone on raids for him and
so he went there and actually he took a
gift that's because Basha's mother had
brought a sable coat as a gift for
mother Erlun at that time of the
marriage. So he took the coat and he
took it and he gave it as a gift to
Vanghan and asked for his help and Van
Han said yes and he said I will send
some troops but we need more and you
need to ask Jamoka Jam Jamaka you need
to ask him to come also. He said I will
send a message to him to get troops. you
have to tell the story of Jamaka because
uh the the story of Jenghis Khan is one
of people abandoning him being disloyal
and here is a person who's not of his
kin but uh becomes his in a way brother
uh in a way loyal and as you've
described he's both the best thing to
happened to Jenghis Khan and one of the
biggest challenges in in in the later
years to Jangaskhan. So who was Jamaka?
>> Jamaka was a boy about the same age as
as Timujin and his family had winter
camp close to where Mother Erlun was
living with her children. And so the two
boys met during the winter time. In
fact, they both claimed descent from the
same uh woman about four generations
earlier or five, it's a little unclear.
She was urihongai woman who herself was
kidnapped and actually Jamaka was the
descendant of her from the fact that she
was pregnant at the moment of kidnapping
and then Tamujin is descended from her
through the new kidnapper Banchar his
her ancestor. So they're both through
the as the Mongols would say from the
same womb. They come from the same
historic
uh origin. However, their lives were
similar in that both lost their fathers
very early. But Jamaka also lost a
mother. So he grew up in the household
of his grandfather. He had no siblings.
Uh unlike Tamuzin with whole household
of siblings, he grew up with his
grandfather and his grandfather had
several wives. So he grew up with a
bunch of old women which later he said
he thought was uh an influence on his
life. But the two boys meet. So they
come from different backgrounds and
Jamoka is not as deprived by any means
as the life of Tamuzin but he has a
certain emotional deprivation I think
having not had mother father siblings
and he lives with these old old people
the two boys meet they become good
friends playing on the ice and so
they're playing on the ice and then very
early on I think when they're about 10
or 11 years old they decide to make a
pact it's called being coming and is
more than a friend. A friend is like ner
in the language and there are several
different types of friendship but and is
a friendship that's beyond a friendship.
It's something for life and they swore
that they would be there forever to
protect each other to help each other in
every moment. And they exchanged
knucklebones. So each one of them had
the knucklebone of a a robuck, a deer.
uh knucklebones are used in these games
that they play, but it's also used to
forecast the future. You can roll them
around and and all. And it's very
strange on the ice. I will say in the
winter time in Mongolia, it can be up to
50° below zero. And it doesn't really
matter at that point whether it's either
Celsius or Fahrenheit or what it is, but
you slide something across the ice and
it's just absolutely smooth like silk
and it goes on for a long way. And if
you put your ear down to the ice, you
hear this celestial sound that is unlike
any sound on the earth. It's just like
the angels are singing under the ice. So
once they've sworn in this relationship
of then a couple years later they swear
it again but this time they're slightly
older boys and they have bows and arrows
and so they exchange arrows with each
other. In fact, the the text is very
specific that Jamaka took the horn, cut
it off of a two-year-old calf,
and uh he whittleled it down, and then
he drilled a hole into it in order to
make a whistling arrow, which is used uh
for several purposes among the Mongols.
It's used for signals for one thing from
one person to another. But also when
you're hunting, if you want to move the
animal in a certain direction, you send
a whistling arrow in the opposite
direction to make the animal move. So it
had a lot of uses. So the boys had
exchanged robot knuckles. This time they
exchang. And so they had been close
friends. And Van Han said, "Okay, Jamoka
should raise some troops and go with
you." And he did. So the three set out
some troops from Vanghan. He himself did
not go. He was too old. But he sent some
troops and then Jamoka and his troops
and then basically just Tamujin and his
family. He just had his brothers. That's
all. They set off to find the Murket
people up the Selen River which flows
into Siberia and on into Lake Ball. They
had to go through some extremely rough
territory.
And you see in this episode though,
Jamaka
is already a little bit fierce without
necessarily thinking it through
carefully. Uh he s he gives this long
speech about all the things they're
going to do to the merket people. We're
going to jump through the the tono the
the smoke hole in the top of the gear.
We're going to jump in there and we're
going to kill them all. We're going to
kill the men and the women and the
children. we will destroy these people
forever. He has a extremely militant
rhetoric at least. And he's also rather
critical of the elder people. Van Han's
people came late and he gave them this
long lecture about we are Mongols and if
we give our word, our word is our
promise forever and rain or sleet or
snow, it doesn't matter. We be there on
time. And then it so he's dressing down
his superiors. is very aggressive but
he's very helpful. So these troops they
move in on the merket camp. They also
come in at night and so the there's a
small amount of warning because some men
are out hunting sables the merket men
and they race back to the camp and they
tell the people and the people are are
getting ready to get out as fast as
possible. So Bura has no idea who's
coming. She doesn't want to be kidnapped
again. It's just somebody. So she and uh
the grandmother go auction again and and
so they're loaded into a cart to go
away. So Timin comes in and there's a
full moon that night so they could see
what they're doing. And he's really
searching for her. He's not paying too
much attention to the battle. And he's
calling for her. And he she hears his
voice. She knows who it is. She jumps
off the cart and she runs to him and
they reunited and he grabs her, embraces
her and then he said, "This is the goal.
This is why we are here. We don't need
anything else." He was very clear about
that.
>> And that was his first
full-on military engagement.
>> Yes. Aside from the things Yes. His
first full-on military engagement. Now
um along the way in addition to escaping
all these horrors he had killed his
older half brother
Beh
>> and that too was a deeply formative
experience. So what what was that about?
Can you explain in in Mongol society the
role of the the older brother and the
power struggle there and you know not to
moralize but there's also
>> uh you know the the ethical foundation
behind the murder
>> the killing of Becker that's one of the
things that's totally unknown outside of
the secret history of the Mongols none
of the Persian chronicles none of the
Chinese chronicles none of them knew
about this until the secret history was
uh deciphered and translated. But Bectar
was the older child of Sigle and Esant
the older brother has complete authority
over the younger siblings in Mongolian
society. They have to refer to him with
a special pronoun all the time ta and he
refers to them as chi. It's like a
formality and and his word goes he is
the father in the absence of the father.
But also it's quite common that if a man
dies and his brothers he has no brothers
or his brothers do not marry his widow
then if he has a son by another wife she
will become his wife. So it would have
been common that Beexter eventually when
he passed through puberty would then
perhaps marry Mother Erlun.
Now
I don't know that that happened but I
think either it did or Timujin was
trying to prevent it because it was bad
enough that he was the older brother but
he comes the older brother and a
stepfather. I think Timojin just
couldn't handle that and he was already
bear was ordering him around. So he
would take things like a fish or bird
that uh Timujin had caught and that's
perfectly acceptable in the the Mongol
hierarchy.
>> So Timujin would catch a fish and Bector
would take the fish.
>> Yes. It's only recorded once but perhaps
happened several times.
>> So that's an okay thing to do for an
older brother. Just take stuff. Yes, he
can do anything he wants just about with
his younger siblings. That's Yeah. And
but Timujin is not going to stand for
it. So mostly in the record, they kind
of put the blame on this fish, which I'm
not so sure that's really the blame. And
uh the boys had actually taken the
sewing needles from their mother. They
were using them for fishing. And I think
it was more complicated than that. But
for whatever reason, he and his next
brother, Hasser, decided to kill him,
and they did.
>> Why to you is it more complicated than
that? It feels to me like stealing of a
fish is like the final straw. Here he's
being abused.
>> Yes.
>> Over and over and over. And the fish is
a symbol of that.
>> And so here he takes matters into his
own hands.
>> I think it is the symbol of that. And it
can be the thing that pushes him over.
>> Yeah. the edge, but it's all these other
tensions of what's going on with the
family because they shoot him with
arrows, they kill him, but what happens
afterwards is also interesting for the
dynamics of what was going on before
because we hear nothing from Sigo.
She and her younger son, Belgatai, they
stay with the family. They don't go
away. But the one who is outraged is
mother Erlun, his mother. She screams
and hollers at him in the longest kind
of tirade you can imagine about you will
never have anybody in your life except
your own shadow and you know you are
worse than than everything that she
could name they could be worse than she
was outraged and went on and on and on
about it. So she was obviously
extremely distressed about it. Whereas
Sigle, the mother of the boy, she may
have been distressed, I don't know, but
nothing has shown up in the record. So
he does have this episode of having
killed off his brother, but I don't
think it was a deeply meaningful I think
it was important, but I don't think it
was emotionally deeply meaningful for
Timujin.
The brother was gone. The problem was
solved. mother is extremely ticked off
at him. But
>> but it does show, in fact, it's
interesting if it's not a big deal for
him. It does show that he's willing to
resort to murder, to take care of a
>> bad situation.
>> Yes, he is capable of doing anything
that needs to be done to resolve what he
sees as a problem. Bea was a problem. He
resolved it. at a very young age. So
he'd had that experience behind him. But
now his bear's younger brother Belgati
is on the raid with him and with Jamoka
when they go to Captain Bura back.
So uh he has both loyalty and Belgati
stays loyal to him his entire life. His
entire life. Uh it was very interesting.
So ek if we return to bursta is it
normal to have such a love story across
many years when you're separated and
sort of having that kind of loyalty
because it was two-way loyalty from
bersa to to Timigjin and Timigan to
burst
>> and this is like uh before he was Jenis
Khan
>> I think as children he was too
preoccupied with staying alive and
getting trying to find fish and roots to
eat and things like that to really be
pining for her all the time. But for
whatever reason, she came and it could
be that her family liked him in some way
or that she remembered him or that she
had no other suitors because at 17 she
should have been married actually. So I
I can't explain why, but it was
certainly a strong love story after the
fact if not before. I mean th those two
were loyal to each other throughout
their lives. Uh she was I would say the
most important person to him. Uh after
that
>> he went to literal war
to get her back.
>> He risked everything. He was willing to
die. He was willing to kill. He was
willing to die in order to get her back.
And he got her back.
And now he's reestablished his
relationship with Jamoka. And so they
decide to stay together and they all go
off to the Horon Valley
and
she is pregnant.
This becomes a huge issue forever.
It's one of those things that to this
day almost it's an issue.
and what happens.
But as he says much later in life when
his own sons rebel against him and they
call that first child a murket bastard,
he defends his wife
viciously. He to his own sons. He says,
"You were not there. You do not know who
loved who and who did not. You did not
see the sky turning around. You did not
see the stars falling. You did not see
the earth turn over. You don't know what
was happening. And if I say he is my
son, he is my son. Who are you to say
otherwise? You were not there. You come
from the same warm womb. And if your
mother could hear your words, her warm
womb womb would turn to cold stone. So
he defended her forever. But he's off
now. We go back to the beginning. She's
pregnant.
They're in the Hanukak Valley. and he
and Jamak decide to renew their vows of
being under to each other.
So this time it's more serious and it uh
ceremony in front of the whole uh
we can't say tribe. It's not big enough
yet for a tribe but but the whole clan
that's there. And
then Jamaka takes off a gold belt which
actually he'd stolen from the market at
some point. Where on earth they had a go
got a gold belt? I don't know. But he
took off a gold belt and he put it on
Tamuin. And then Tamuin gave him a mayor
who had never uh had a fold, had never
given birth. And it was unusual mayor
who had a little growth on the front of
her head which they called a horn. So it
was a unusual gift and I don't it has
meaning but I don't know all the
meanings behind it. You know, it's sort
of odd to me. But uh the golden belt you
can kind of sort of think about in
different ways. But the gold the belt
the belt for the Mongol man is really
the sign of manhood.
And in fact this uh belt a woman was
often then and even now called person
without a belt because that's how they
were at that time. Today women wear
belts of course but they still use the
word busqu
with no belt. So it's a very important
symbol of manhood. So he gave that
tamujin and they celebrated and then the
words of the secret history they slept
apart under the same blanket apart from
the other group and they were happy
together and then when the baby was born
Tim Tuja named the baby
which means visitor
and some people say well it's because
the child was really the market child
other people say know it's because he
was a visitor on the territory of Jamok
at that time and other people can say
well but Jamaka's ancestor who had been
born from the kidnapped woman who was
pregnant that they had named that uh
Jaredai which meant foreigner so it's
kind of like a parallel the visitor the
foreigner and so Jamoka's clan was took
the name from him they were called Jaran
Jaran and so there all these things that
sometimes we can't quite understand
because we don't have the total
mentality of that time and we don't
we're not there.
>> But we should say that I mean it's a
pretty powerful part of this love story
is that he the child is likely not his
and he accepted that child as his own
without and defended it as it becomes
much more important later.
>> Yes.
>> As his first
>> uh child.
>> Yes. He defends this child through his
entire life. And um
but not long after the birth,
he and Jamoka break apart or really it's
Timujin breaks apart at the urging of uh
she said he lords it over you too much.
Uh he orders you around too much. You
need to be free. We need to break away.
and she urged him and he loved his wife
more than anything. I think that in a
certain way the most important other
character in his life, adult life would
be the and relationship which gets up
being severely tested in the future
years. But they run away through the
night. They go all night long to escape
from him. But uh he obviously loved
birth the most and took the baby of
course with him as well.
So here is this breaking point of the
una. How did that relationship evolve?
>> The two of them never claimed to break
it. They had just separated.
And now
we have the Banghan, this the most
powerful ruler on the step who's ruling
out of central Mongolia of the Kerat
people. And so Tamaka remains loyal to
him, but at first so does Tamujin.
They're both loyal to him, but they're
fighting in different kinds of
campaigns, you know. So, for a while,
they're not fighting each other.
But eventually, some things happened
that separate Tamujin. Timujin was
making all of these great victories for
Van Han. And he was even got the title
Vong, which means from from Chinese
meaning uh prince or king. uh he
Avanghan received that from the Jin
dynasty because of all of these
conquests against the Tatar people. So
Timuin was rising up and then he wanted
his son to marry the daughter of Van Han
and Van Han said no
his own son sing his told the father no
no no no we don't marry those low people
they're Mongols they're not like us you
know we are carry out people they we're
not going to marry them and so then
now war you could say breaks out or feud
really it's more of a feud And Himojin
flee has to flee far away into the east
to a place called Baljuna. And he goes
to Baljuna. And at this time then Jamaka
is going to fight on behalf of
his lord Bong Han.
The two of them do not meet in combat.
But now their forces are fighting each
other.
>> And they didn't see that.
I mean there's an obvious tension there.
There's an obvious, if slight breaking
of loyalty, right?
>> Yes. It's hard to know what's going
through their mind at that point. We
only have it later on
when the the relationship is being
resolved in unfortunate ways that they
claim that neither one of them ever
truly broke it because they never harmed
each other directly. And in fact, then
Timujin eventually defeats Van Han. So
he takes over central Mongolia. He's
starting to really rise up now. And he
has the title from his own people of
Chingghaskhan.
They give him that at uh um Blackheart
Mountain by the Blue Lake. It's a very
beautiful special place. But he takes
that title. That's not a title that
anyone had ever held that we know of.
Ching Han. It was a new title that he
just uh
thought up or somebody thought up or
somebody thought it had auspicious
meaning behind it. It's very close to
the word tangis which means the sea. Uh
it could have had something to do with
that. Uh Mongolians really like we might
say puns of they like words with
multiple meanings and that's very
important to them. The more meanings a
word has the more power that word has.
So it has different meaning in different
languages. So in the Mongolian it sounds
like strong chin chingis but in Turk and
there are many Turkish people including
the market themselves are mostly Turk
people. Uh it sounds like uh the C
thingis thing.
>> So it's exciting to them when there's
this double meaning.
>> Yes.
>> And the the the double meaning plays
with each other and that excites them
>> especially with names.
>> Yeah. I'm like today in Mongolia or well
I've been there so long I think the fad
has passed now but about 20 years ago it
was popular to name children Michelle
>> girls because it's a French name an
American name and it means smile
>> in Mongolia so it's the power of three
great languages and three great civiliz
and so many names are like that and so I
think chingis it doesn't have one
meaning I think it means powerful it
means the sea I think it means many
different things but so he had become a
Khan and he was ruling over him. And so
Jamaka now switched loyalties to the
next kingdom over called the Nimon
people who are farther west and um
he becomes the the protetéé could say of
the Nimon people. But
when Jigaskhan attacks the Nimon, Jamoka
deserts the Nimon. He tells them, "These
people have uh snouts of steel and they
eat humans alive." And he was telling
him all these horrible things about the
Mongols, you know, and uh uh Tayang Han,
the leader of the Nims, he was
rightfully scared about them and he was
left there and he in fact was very
quickly also defeated. So Tamaka has not
fought against Timujin in this campaign.
and he's off with some of his people,
Jadakan clan people. He's off with them
and
they see the turning of the tide,
you know, and but he now wants to become
the great Khan of the step. He has very
follow very few followers. But he takes
the title Gurhan, which is a very old
ancient important title. But but because
uh Banghan is gone, Toglhan gone that he
can take this title and pretend to be
the great Khan of the step and all. But
his own people turn against him and they
capture him and they think they will
take him to Chingaskhan. It's not
Chingaskhan. They'll take him and they
will be rewarded perhaps for turning him
in. And Chingaskhan doesn't reward them
immediately. He kills them all because
they have betrayed
their leader who is his and
it's a very strange encounter
and so supposedly Chenas Han says to him
come back to me save me be beside me
protect me be my shadow be my safety
guard in life
and supposedly Jamuka says,
"But I did betray you when my people
fought against you and you will always
know that and you will never completely
trust me. I will be like a louse
underneath the collar of your tunic. I
will be like a thorn in the lapel of
your dell." He said, "Kill me
without shedding my blood. Let me die.
And if you do,
take my remains up to a high place and
bury me. And I will be the guard. I will
be the protector for you and your people
forever."
So they
obviously Tamuin did not participate in
the killing, but he ordered the killing.
And uh he was either it's not specified
how he was killed without shedding the
blood, but the Mongols had several ways
because the most honorable way to die
was without shedding blood. The blood
contains part of the soul and if you
lose it, you're losing your soul before
you die. So they usually wrapped them up
in felt carpets and then beat them to
death or trampled them to death with
horses, something like that. There a
couple other methods but I think that's
probably the method by which Jamaka was
killed and so he was killed and then
Tamujin had or Chigasan had his remains
taken up and buried in a high place.
This is over near Tuva which is today
part of Russia but until the 20th
century was a part of Mongolia. The
Tuven people very very close culturally
to the Mongols. It seems that both of
them under the under relationship
had a deep value for loyalty and so the
way you know it's not worth living after
you've been disloyal which is the the
Jamaica perspective right
>> he had become very practical at this
point
and he understood that you needed
complete total loyalty and trust with
everybody around you
and I think for this reason he was
willing either say to accept the the
plea of of Jamaka and when Changan was
asking him to come back and to to be his
uh shadow and to be his uh safety guard
again.
Maybe that was just a formality that he
knew would be rejected.
Or maybe when Jamoka offered to be
killed without shedding the blood, that
was a formality that he thought would
not be followed through.
>> Nevertheless, uh to me, just reading
your work and understanding the history,
this relationship seems like a really
really important relationships that
defines the nature of loyalty.
>> Yes. And for for Jingus,
>> I would say in both negative and
positive ways, it was the most important
relationship of his adulthood aside from
Bura. But that relationship really did
not seem to have many negative aspects.
They sometimes disagreed on things, but
small things. Uh so she was po she was
by him and she was positive in every
regard so far as we know forever.
Although she was not submissive, but she
was always on his side. And Chamaka,
it was just a little too hotheaded for
me, you know, I mean, in my evaluation
of of him that uh these things like, oh,
we're going to drop down on the market
and we're going to come through the
smoke hole, kill everybody, and all. And
he had a flare for the dramatic even in
a way giving the gold belt to Timujin.
But Jamaka also he explained himself at
the end of life and he said you know we
both lost our father but I also lost my
mother and you had a strong mother to
raise you. I did not. And he said you
had bursta. You have a very strong wife
to help you. And my wife he just used a
word like prdler. Like she just sort of
complains and paddles along. and we did
not have a relationship.
So
I think something about that rings true
that there were some some elements of
that that were true. But he Jamaka
certainly didn't have the intelligence
and the the real genius for dealing with
people dealing with soldiers especially
in war for warfare that uh Tamujin had.
>> Yeah. There's in that relationship
there's a contrast because Jenghis Khan
did not accumulate riches or uh
accumulate power in a way that was for
the sake of the riches or for the sake
of the power. It was always very
practical in
>> what is the way to maximize
the success of this operation.
>> Yes.
>> Yes. He I often wonder what happened to
the gold belt. it disappeared from the
story you know and a gold belt doesn't
just disappear you know what happened to
that it's so interesting because Tamua
was never interested in material goods
and when as Jingaskhan is the ruler he
in some ways you could say became the
richest man in the world because he
controlled the most wealth flowing
through him but he always dressed simply
he always lived in the tent and he said
I eat what my soldiers eat I dress the
way my soldiers dress. I live the way my
soldiers live. We are the same. So he
had no interest in the wealth and
he had sided before with Vanghan which
was very advantageous because they had
more trade goods and wealthier people
and all but
he just didn't have the temperament I
think that was going to be helpful for
Jenghaskhan's continued rise. That is
one of the powerful things about the
Jenghis Khan story is he came from
nothing.
>> From absolute nothing
>> and he didn't from what I see and
understand become sort of corrupted by
the riches or change. He fundamentally
remained the same
>> yes
>> person who does not have value for
material things.
>> He changed and matured in various ways
over life as we all do or we hope we do.
But he never became a way. He was never
greedy. He was never inquisitive. He
kept the simple life. And uh part of the
simple life for him meant that no one
was allowed to write about him. No one
was allowed to make his likeness. They
couldn't paint a picture of him. They
couldn't make a a a statue of him. No
building could be built dedicated to
him. No palace, no tomb, no temple of
any sort, not even at the point of death
at the simplest gravestone.
Nothing. Nothing. It's fascinating that
a kid like a boy that doesn't know the
world would have the intelligence to
understand how corrupting that is. Like
the moment somebody builds a statue of
you, it's like a slippery slope towards
becoming not seeing the world clearly,
not seeing uh surrounding yourself with
sick of hands that don't tell you the
right the the information. not being
able to select the right people to lead
the armies or to to lead the territories
that you conquer. So it's interesting
that he had that foresight of don't
record, don't worship.
>> Yes,
>> that's because that's a dangerous road
to go down for a leader.
>> And it's very hard to explain how he
stuck to that, how he got it. you're so
easily corrupted by power and uh
and and yet he maintained this very
fierce attitude towards his relationship
was with the people around him, his
guard mostly the or his private part of
the army, you know, that went with him,
the central part of the army. That was
his relationship, his family. He had
four wives. This was what was important
to him. And in fact, no portrait was
painted until 1278. Well, by then he'
already been dead for 51 years. And then
no statue
until
the 21st century.
>> Just incredible. But let's uh let's go
to the document that you referenced
several times, the secret history.
>> The secret history is a very unusual
document and and I happen to love it
very much. But I said, you know,
Chinghan allowed nothing to be written
about him in his lifetime. People
couldn't take notes. Even the army was
not he Jenask Khan ordered the invention
of the alphabet for the Mongol people.
And it was adapted from the Weaguer
people. And uh so to this day, it's
often called the Ukrish alphabet, the
Weager alphabet. So he had ordered that
and he'd ordered his children to learn
to read and write. And some did. I think
most did not, but some did. But one of
the things he did with every campaign,
even the one at the murket when he uh
rescued Berta, was he always adopted one
orphan
and that child became a full member of
the Mongol nation in his household. His
mother Erlun would raise the child. So
she eventually had a whole household
full of boys of different tribes but
they all became very high ranking
members of the government and one was a
tatar boy who turned out not to be so
great as a soldier uh but he could read
and write. He was the best and later
eventually he became the supreme judge
appointed by Chingis Khan of course and
so when Chinghan died he recognized it
was important not just to write down the
law that's all Chinghan allowed to be
written in blue books only the law
nothing about him or campaigns or
military anything but uh Shigi Hutuk was
his name and Shiki Hutuk realized that
this was going to be lost that this is a
great historic thing that has happened
so he compiled the work part of it. He I
don't know other people contributed
helped him but it's still a little bit
unclear. Uh the Mongols they don't
specify that's they always tell you
exactly where something happens. So we
know exactly where it happened in
Mongolia. You can still go to that spot
where he wrote it. That's very important
to the Mongols. Uh and we also know it's
the year of the mouse. So it was 1228.
Chinghan had died in 27. So he wrote
down it begins with what we would say
are the uh the myths although I'm not
sure they're myths but the origins of
the myths it begins with the marriage of
gray blue wolf with a tawny deer then
some people say well that's some kind of
myth it's toemic and mongos they look at
me I asked them about this they said
what
he was named blue grey wolf she was
named Tony deer they married you know
very practical ical about it and they
think they're real people. Maybe they
were or not. I don't know. But so this
earlier history is just the genealogy as
it should be. Who kn