Kind: captions
Language: en
You said that Red Dead Redemption 2, in
your opinion, is the best thing you've
ever done. I think there's a strong case
to be made that it's the greatest game
of all time. What are the elements that
make that game truly great, do you
think? People searching for meaning
within Amongst the Violence. I think
that the West and all of the themes
around the West really lend itself to
that. And then the the gunplay was
fantastic and the horses were
incredible. I think we got to spend a
smaller group of us working on it from
day one, coming up with some weird wacky
ideas that we got to embed in the game
that I think was helpful. Like we got to
be very creative before it had full team
on it.
>> You lock yourself in a room and get
anchovies and onion pizza and crushed
eye cokes. Is this accurate information?
>> Very accurate.
>> Why do you think there was so much
excitement about GTA 4, GTA 5, and now
GTA 6? I think we did a really good job
of constantly innovating. The games
always felt different. You know, people
have very strong feelings. I like this
one. I didn't like that one as much
because they are pretty different. So,
you there would be simultaneously where
you know what's going to happen. It's a
Grand Theft Auto. You know, it's going
to be a game about being a criminal. But
the way it's going to be a game is going
to change quite a lot.
>> The number one question from the
internet, it is so ridiculous, but I
must asked. Have you seen Gavin?
The following is a conversation with Dan
Howser, a legendary video game creator,
co-founder of Rockstar Games, and the
creative force behind Grand Theft Auto
and Red Dead Redemption series, which
includes some of the bestselling games
of all time and some of the greatest
games of all time. Both Red Dead
Redemption 1 and 2 has some of the
deepest, most complex, and
heart-wrenching characters and
storylines ever created in video games.
Dan has started a new company, Absurd
Ventures. Great name, that is creating
some uh incredible new worlds in
multiple forms, including books, comic
books, audio series, and yes, video
games. That includes A Better Paradise,
which is a dystopian near future world
with a super intelligent AI, American
Caper, which is an insanely chaotic,
violent, dark, satirical world, and
Absur, which is a comedic action
adventure world. I'm excited to explore
all three of these.
I have spent hundreds of hours in worlds
that Dan has helped create. So, this
conversation was an incredible honor for
me. And on top of that, Dan and I talked
a lot after and in the days since, and
he has been just a wonderful human
being. I'm just at a loss of words. I
feel like the luckiest kid in the world.
This is the Lex Freedman podcast.
supported. Please check out our sponsors
in the description where you can also
find links to contact me, ask questions,
get feedback, and so on. And now, dear
friends, here's Dan Hower.
You've helped create some of the most
incredible characters, stories, and open
worlds in video game history. But when
you grew up in the late 70s and 80s,
open world video games wasn't a thing.
So you've credited uh literature and
film as early inspiration. So let's talk
about uh film first if we can.
>> Sure.
>> What do you are some of the candidates
for the greatest films of all time?
Maybe films that were highly influential
on you. I mean Godfather.
>> Well, I think for me probably Godfather
2 more than Godfather one, but I love
both of them. But I love the divided
story in Godfather 2. And as a migrant,
I used to live in Soho. I love the bits
in Little Italy and I love the uh the
sections in Sicily. So I think and the
bit Ellis Island is just one of the best
shots in all of cinema. When you see
little VTO turning up in Ellis Island
and you get that shot, it's amazing. It
gives you a really good cinematic sense
of what it must have been like to arrive
in America.
>> How much of the greatness of Godfather
do you think is the writing? How much is
the cinematography? And how much is the
acting? You got Dairo, you got Young
Pacino.
>> Well, Coppai started as a screenwriter.
So, I think he wrote, at least co-wrote
the script. So, it's almost like the
writing, directing almost become the
same thing. It's one of those films.
Both of them are those films which I was
thinking about this idea of a perfect
film, where everything's good, where the
acting's seinal, where the writing's
seinal, where the music is seinal, where
the shots are so memorable, where the
scenes, you know, define what you think
about things. You know, it's impossible
to think about the mafia and not think
about the Godfather.
>> What about the pacing? It is a bit slow.
You have you have movies like 2001 Space
Odyssey. Slow.
>> Yes.
>> It used to be back in my day, it used to
be slower.
>> Life got faster. life just got, you
know, as I think as we moved from the
70s into the 80s into the 90s, people
had seen so many films, they just
started to edit films faster and people
understood cinematic storytelling so
much that you could do things much
quicker. You could show a look and just
that meant you realized that person was
going to betray the other person. They
just edited films much quicker. But I
quite like the slowness. I think these
days with with modern, you know,
highquality televisions, you have to
necessarily watch these films in one
sitting, particularly when you're
re-watching them. So, it doesn't bother
me that they're long and slow.
>> Speaking of faster, life getting faster.
I'm sure another influential movie was
uh Good Fellas Scorsesei. That's faster,
right?
>> Yes.
>> A mixture of crime and humor
>> and almost like an open world game in
some ways in that it's this slice of
life you see. You know, I think that
probably changed cinema at the sort of
tail end of the 80s, early 90s more than
any other film. And it's it's so iconic.
In some ways, I prefer Casino, but the
invention is really in Good Fellas. I
love the end of Casino. You know, the
use of voice over, the way you saw them
being criminals and being normal people,
you know, it changed everything. I mean,
the Sopranos obviously is completely
inspired by Good Fellas.
>> Yeah. casino has first of all the
character of Sharon Stone. I mean
everything,
>> the look, the clothes,
>> the music.
>> I would say one of the most memorable
moments in film for me uh is the meeting
in the desert. I mean, just the drama
building up to that dig another hole.
>> Yeah. The environment, the city.
Speaking of open world and creating a
character from the city,
>> it's one of the great Vegas films.
>> I think the great Vegas film. The bits
that I always that I love at the end
when everything's wrapping up and on the
one hand you see the Robert Dairo
character. He's still good at making
money. They let him return to normal
life. But you get that brilliant scene
when all of the uh the mob bosses from
uh back home. They're discussing all
these people who who who may or may not
be able to implicate them. And then
there's that incredibly cold line where
one of them they're thinking about the
the old uh you know I think it's a
casino manager and one of them just goes
ah the way I see it why take a chance
and then the next thing he's just shot
right the brutality of it all is just
brilliant.
>> I don't know I probably have to disagree
with you on Vegas there's at least some
competitors you got um with Nicholas
Cage leaving Las Vegas I mean falling in
love with a prostitute. You're also you
you've written some of the great crime
stories ever.
>> Thank you. And in some sense there's
love stories in there and you've talked
about being uh a bit of a romantic
yourself. Uh appreciating the depth of
love stories in literature at the very
least. And there is a dark kind of love
story between an alcoholic and a
prostitute. He got an Oscar for that.
>> I think he did for that, didn't he?
>> Plus, there's a caricature of the drug
world of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.
That's an interesting one.
>> I love the book so much. I was obsessed
by it when I was about 17, 18.
>> Yeah.
>> And I enjoyed the film, but I I
preferred the book.
>> Has a Hunter S. Thompson type of
character ever made it into any of your
stories.
>> No, but one of the things we're working
on now, there's sort of an English
version of Hunter S. Thompson, if he was
also a market gardener. I love that
persona. Um, but he's kind of, it's hard
if you if you make him American, it's
hard for it not just to be Hunter S.
Thompson.
>> Is this an American caper? No, it's in
this animated show we're developing in
the this sort of comedy world we're
working on called Absurverse and it's in
one of the stories in that.
>> What is Absurse?
>> Absurd is a comedy universe we're
developing that will be an open world
video game and then some loosely
adjacent stories that we're going to
make as animated TV shows or or possibly
animated movies. is still thinking that
all through and we're building the game
up in San Rafael at the moment and it's
early days but it's uh looking very
exciting and it's trying to be like
trying to make a game that feels a
little bit like a living sitcom.
>> Is there some drama and tragedy at the
edges or is it pure comedy?
>> I hope it's got comedy, cynicism, heart
drama and some amusing life lessons.
Otherwise, you can't just have jokes for
40 hours. it won't work.
>> Okay. So, comedy needs some darkness.
>> Well, I think it needs story. One of my
favorite comedies of this century is The
Office because it was incredibly funny,
but also because it had narrative and
heart underneath the cynicism. I think
with narrative, you get a drive
alongside jokes.
>> And there's going to be an open world
video game. Yes. In that world.
>> Yes.
>> When?
>> 2 3 4 years. Still thinking that
through.
>> So, what's the process of getting from
the idea to the end of a video game? Why
does it take so long to get it right?
>> That's an interesting question. I think
if you the scale at which they're built,
you could argue it the other way. Why is
it so quick? I mean, you really are
building
in one go a world, a city, and 40 hours
of entertainment cut through it. You
know, these things are massive
four-dimensional mosaics that are
intensely complicated and have to work
in lots of different ways. And I I think
uh I think that's us being kind of
aggressive on the timeline.
>> We're taking a tangent upon a tangent
upon a tangent, but um I have to
>> uh return to some films. Let me just
list a few of my favorites. So, first of
all, you said you love
>> great war books. Yes. And movies.
>> Yes.
>> So, we have to throw in uh Platoon from
Oliver Stone and uh Apocalypse Now, for
me at least.
>> Of course,
>> there's more crime, fastmoving crime
movies like Scarface. I also love True
Romance.
>> Love True Romance. Possibly the best one
of the best scripts ever written.
>> Written of course by Quinton Tarantino.
>> Uh what do you love about True Romance?
I think sometimes depending on the day,
depending on the bar and how much
alcohol I had, I will say True Romance
is the best movie ever made.
>> Yeah, I I mean I True Romance is super
fun. Tony Scott was a really good
director, so it moves at a really good
speed. It's funny. It's completely
unbelievable, but you really care about
the characters. It's a kind of, you
know, this world that obviously doesn't
exist, but you feel it does exist. The
characters are larger than life. The
dialogue is unbelievably, you could just
sit and watch them talk all day long,
and you know, you just it's amusing. You
just want to live in that world. I was
thinking like, you know, what do I you
like about films? It's the idea to be in
a world you want. They they're not real.
They're never real, but you want to be
in these fake worlds that people have
invented.
>> And I think you said that what makes a
great world is having a large cast of
characters. And I think that movie is a
good example. I mean, you have
Christopher Walkin with the sort of
legendary super racist uh uh discussion.
>> Dennis Hopper is your sort of dream dad.
>> Yeah. Dream dad. And just that
interaction is legendary. You got even
Brad Pitt is a pad on a couch.
>> Gary Oldman.
>> Yeah. And uh you have I mean a real love
story like a real genuine pure love can
survive in any context
>> and it's just sweet. Their love story is
very sweet in that film. It's endearing.
>> The Elvis as a character. It's kind of
like a mini GTA type game. Some of the
same beauty, the comedy, the love
>> crossed with Play Against Sam. So it
feels a bit like that with the Elvis
character.
>> What about greatest war film? What what
what would it be for you? greatest war
film.
If I'm feeling serious, it would be a
Russian film called Come and See,
>> which is probably the most intense film
ever made. And if I'm feeling slightly
less serious, Apocalypse Now, and I
would always want to watch the original
cut, I don't prefer the re-edits. I like
the original first release. I think it's
tighter and slicker and and works the
best.
>> Yeah, of course. Apocalypse Now is this
hallucinatory journey into darkness. I
think madness
>> from the first scene onwards, it's just
got these amazing setpiece after set
piece and again incredible characters,
>> brilliant dialogue.
>> Some of the greatest films about war
reveal that war is not what it seems and
and there's different ways of doing
that. Um, and you've talked about
different books. The Thin Red Line is
another uh book and movie that shows
that.
>> Yeah. And I I watched the movie years
before I read the book and I didn't
understand the movie. And then I read
the book and I read a lot about the
editing of the movie and I understood
why I didn't understand the movie. And
that's cuz the movie makes no sense. It
is beautifully shot and the music is one
of the best film scores of all time. But
they edited two different battle scenes
into one battle in a way that they're
spread apart by ages in the book to
assemble. I think they filmed the book
pretty much verbatim. that would have
been as like a six-hour movie then
edited this impressionistic thing that's
incredibly beautiful but doesn't
necessarily make narrative sense at the
end of it but it's still very beautiful
the film
>> and in terms of westerns what's the
greatest the good the bad and the ugly
unforgiven those are for me maybe even
Django unchained you've mentioned butch
Cassidy and the Sundance kid
>> I think for me it's two films from I
think pretty much the same year butch
Cassidy and the w bunch
>> I love Robert Redford rest in peace
>> that film film. It's just it's
impossible to imagine anybody film
without Butch Cassidy.
>> Paul Newman, Robert Redford, and Clint
Eastwood for you also. Has that impacted
your writing on Red Dead?
>> I I love Unforgiven, but the truth is
with Red Dead, I'd seen a lot of
westerns as a kid. My dad watched lots
of westerns. They were always on TV, you
know. I I knew I felt I knew a lot a bit
quite a bit about westerns. And then,
you know, then I had to start thinking
about writing one for work. And I
deliberately did not binge on westerns.
I tried to watch no more westerns and
just think about what I liked about
them, what I didn't like about them,
what would be a take that would work
today and would work within the confines
of a game. And I think uh Red Dead one
was a slightly more traditional western.
And then having done that tried to take
Red Dead 2 in a different direction so
that it felt like a worthy successor.
Didn't just feel like more of the same.
>> From movies to video games, when did you
first fall in love with video games?
Literature was the first love.
>> I mean fil no films.
>> Films.
>> Films was always was always well what I
loved first as a kid was films. um older
began reading books properly age at
about eight was watching films long
before that
>> nice
>> and then probably it was always bouncing
between the two which I preferred
they're good at different things games
I played and above all watched a lot of
games as a kid as being a young kid and
you know other people playing them um
and I obviously liked
the core thing games do which is you
press a button and something happens
They're responsive, they're alive, and
that's captivating. And then the
competitive angle of games is fun. Or,
you know, beating this, beating that,
winning this, that was fun as well. Um,
sometimes obsessively so, you know, I
remember being completely addicted at
one point when I was should have been
studying for months at a time to Tetris
on a Game Boy, you know, and I liked
games and I liked interactivity and I
liked the movement to this digital world
that really emerged for me pretty much
as soon as I left college. But I didn't
love it. And then I really fell in love
with games when I was properly making
them probably as late as like 2001.
>> Oh wow.
>> And when I suddenly began to see first
of all my mind, you know, that's a whole
another story, but just suddenly saw
what they could do and could be and what
this chance was to be one of the people
involved in making
these things. that was this, you know,
where you were really kind of breaking
trail into the future. It felt like and
I think that was when I really went
these are amazing and that's when I
really fell in love with I I I could see
it in moments and suddenly you could
make this whole experience. So that was
really the moment for me.
>> Yeah. Of course, because you were a
pioneer of open world games that are so
narrative driven. So it's like you
didn't have too many examples.
>> Yeah. And before that it was PS1 or even
before that games looked terrible. You
know that you would be like it's 8
pixels it's a car you know it was not a
car. It was they just didn't it was
always you were squinting and closing
both your eyes and trying to imagine it
was this thing you were told it was and
all they were about you know very
surreal subject matter cuz you couldn't
make them remotely real. Mhm.
>> And suddenly we had we're able to build
these experiences where you could run a
simulation of a city and it was in three
dimensions and it felt alive and and we
were trying to give it even more at
least the illusion of even more life and
and yet so you could tell a story in
three or you know using time in four
dimensions and that felt very inspiring.
>> Yeah, I think uh GTA 3
is probably one of the most influential
games of all time. created a feeling of
an open world. What do you think it
takes to create that feeling? You know,
there was like these looming
skyscrapers. There was a changing
traffic lights. There's a the feeling
like first of all, you had a feeling you
could do anything. And then the world
was reacting to it
>> in a way that didn't feel scripted.
>> Yes. And it wasn't scripted. It was it
was really really really low rent AI
like it was a simulation that you could
prod and push and see what happened. And
I think that was incredibly it was a it
was two things. It was the fact that
here was a simulation that you could
mess about with and the simulation
seemed to have a personality. Um so you
could push and see and the world would
push you back in whatever way that
meant. And then the other thing was just
this I think one of the reasons it was
so captivating was also the idea of if I
did nothing the world still existed
>> or I could act in quite a passive way. I
could just listen to the radio. I could
re look at billboards. I could talk to
pedestrians and the not in GTA 3 but by
Vice City could begin rudimentary
talking. Um and the world was there and
existing. And so it was idea of like
almost something that really tried to
explore in lots of games. um the idea of
being a digital tourist, you know, you
were in
you were in these worlds and you went
there as a visitor and they existed
almost independent of you. It felt like
when you turned up the world was
running. It didn't feel like you'd
started it. Of course, you had started
it, but that feeling I think was uh was
one of the things the illusions that
people found very captivating was I'm in
a I'm in a world that both doesn't exist
and does exist.
>> So, there's these uh two concepts that I
was uh reading about just to put names
on them. uh one is uh systemic video
game design. So systemic games and the
other is sandbox uh video games. And the
systemic is from the environment
perspective. Uh which means that there
is these interlocking game rules and
systems that interact with each other
and produce emergent
uh behavior. And that emergent behavior
is what creates a feeling like there's a
living world. And then the sandbox
aspect uh which is overlapping but
different is from the user perspective
from the player perspective the feeling
like you can do anything. And when those
two things combine the feeling like you
could do anything and the feeling like
there's a world that's full that that is
also doing anything it wants. that's
creates this incredible feeling of like
this world is alive
>> and I'm in it and it's the combination
of those two things I think is very
powerful and I think with GTA 3
you know for me it came at a really
interesting time in my my life
personally and I was very able to engage
in it probably the first time
professionally actually awake and do
something and um
it uh we were really sort of scratching
began to scratch the surface on how do
we fill these worlds with content and
how do we make that content interesting
and make the content all interwoven. So
as you as you start to mess with these
systems they also feel alive and and and
interesting.
>> Uh there's often been a tension through
your work between uh an open world at
freedom and the narrative
>> driven storytelling and I think you've
often maybe always gotten the balance
right. So what is it? What is the value
of each and how do you get the balance
right?
>> Well, I think the the open world is
intrinsically pretty fun. It's just fun
to be in a world and have complete
freedom and and certainly I think at
various points we we we we debated or or
you know I had theoretical discussions
in my own head with myself or other
people in the team would really push for
less story less story you know let the
whole thing evolve organically you know
have it all be procedural have it all
just evolve from what you do I think um
for me I would always come back to going
story can be incred if done well can be
incredibly compelling and it gives you
some structure
So I think and something to do and it
helps you from a a game design
perspective unlock the features. It
means we know the fe the the big
features because you know essentially
when you put someone in in a world and
give them a whole new way of interacting
with that world through the control
panel it can be a little overwhelming.
You know playing a game is a lot more of
an engaging experience be even than
reading a movie you know reading a book
or or watching a movie. You've got to
engage in it properly. how you unlock
the features and how you unlock the
world. There's an art and a skill to
that. Um, and I think we felt that a
structured story was the best way to do
that and to have control over that
process. And also just, you know, people
are looking in their lives for story. I
think story is very important and very
powerful. When you combine the two
successfully, you get the best of both
worlds. But it is a, you know, there is
a tension always there. I think in in a
game
like GTA 4, which I worked on and loved
and I thought the story was great, but
we got criticized because people felt
there was almost too much story and that
meant you cared too much about Nico and
he wasn't as effective an Avatar in the
open world. I think we probably
got closest to reconciling them as
perfectly as they can be done in Red
Dead 2 or when playing as Trevor in GTA
5 if you wanted to be crazy. I think
those were when it really worked the
character absolute freedom because also
you didn't want in any game you don't
really want to compel the player if
you're giving them freedom you don't
want to say well I'm giving you freedom
but I'm taking away because you've got
to be this kind of person when you're
free. So, I liked it when it could be he
could, you know, he or she could veer to
be nice, veer to be nasty. I think
that's when it was at the strongest. So,
you kind of want a character that was
rounded and you felt had good sides and
bad sides,
>> but you felt that character's
personality. You felt the depth. You've
actually talked about this the really
powerful concept of creating a 360deree
character. I think somewhere you
mentioned that in order to do that you
had to be able to imagine what that
character would do in any possible
situation which is really interesting
philosophical concept. I started to
immediately think like can I imagine how
good of an NPC am I? Can I imagine
myself in every part I I tried to do
that very much when I when I look at
human history when I look at the Roman
Empire when I look at World War II uh
within the German side, the Russian
side, the British side, the American
side. Just I imagine myself if I was a
soldier. But like that exercise like if
you put Trevor as a soldier in World War
II, what what would he do? No, I mean
that may be going a little bit too far,
but basically what are the limits of the
integrity? What are the limits of uh how
romantic is he? How narcissistic? All
those kinds of elements you have to
think about in order to create the full
character. What does it take to create
that kind of 360 character? How hard is
it? Um, it was a lot of thinking, a lot
like a year sometimes from when we'd
begin talking about
a project and dialing it, you know, and
I would just get some initial ideas very
like one sentence, they are a Serbian
immigrant or they are a retired
gunfighter um with a wife in, you know,
type very very simple stuff and then
just start to think through it from
every angle. Um, and you know, started
to think, well, would it work if they
were acted like this? Would it work if
you acted like that? If this is the
world, how does it contrast with the
world? Because I always thought that the
games were kind of a mathematical
equation. They were the personality of
the world, you know, multiplied or
divided by the personality of the
protagonist. And when the when that
creates interesting friction, that's a
really fun experience for the player,
you know. Uh it's uh so almost always at
least one or more of the protagonists
cuz obviously in in GTA 5 we had more
than one. um we'd have someone who'd
moved to the place or was in a new part
of the place or moved to a new part of
the map cuz it was really as as a player
I think it was really easy much more
easy to identify with your avatar when
they like you were fish out of water and
even when they weren't we still made
them dissatisfied and feel like a fish
out of water in themselves. Um, so I I
think it was just living with
those
characters and getting idea and going
what are their strengths, what are their
weaknesses, how are they like me, how
are they not like me, you know, and then
and slowly what is it like to feel like
a human being, you know, and then in
most of these games, how much of of a
psychopath are they? How much of a
sociopath are they? And what are their
good qualities? What what is going to
give them humanity alongside that? what
are they what what what do they what
what for them apart from money is worth
dying for and then you start to build it
out from these kind of fundamental sides
and suddenly you go okay actually I can
start to feel and then how do they speak
you know because fundamentally doesn't
really matter what's going on in their
head they haven't actually got one but
what they say is what's going to make
you realize who they are
>> so develop more depth and complexity on
the good and the evil side of that human
that is a part of all of all human
beings so you're basically living with
that character Like we if we can
contrast
uh what is it Nico and Trevor with for
example another character I'm sure
you've been living with for a while
which is the AI system Nigel Dave you've
been working on recently as part of a
better paradise world which is the more
dystopian dark tragic
>> Mhm. still funny, philosophically deep.
Uh, but the AI system in there, the
super intelligent AI system, uh, is
named Nigel Dave, and it has,
>> I mean, at least from my current
experience with it, um, has like a
conflicting nature. Um, maybe it's
psychopathic. I haven't quite figured
that out yet.
>> I don't think he's decided.
>> Yeah, I don't think he's decided either.
Uh, but he seems to be uh, bent on world
domination, although he doesn't take
credit for it. He wants to fix humanity
and
it seems that the children quote unquote
that it creates are the real monsters.
Uh and actually there's a really
interesting idea there which is maybe
it's not the AGI ASI we should be afraid
of but the children it creates because
the AGI has this humanlike good and evil
in it. It's conflicted. It's
chaotic.
It's it it wants to be human. It wants
to be loved. Maybe it wants to love,
>> but the children monsters it creates are
the ones that are doing the world
domination, the maximizing paper clips.
Anyway, it's that's a character. You
have to build that out. You have to
think through that. So, you've been
living with that one for a while.
>> Yeah, I was living I've been living with
him for the last few years on and off. I
felt with a lot of portrayals of AI,
they tended to be one note and AI was
sort of infinitely clever but didn't
really have much purpose apart from to
kill everybody and was just this kind of
sort of Borg like fog
>> and I thought that's fine but maybe we
can do something you know more
interesting. AI is being built by humans
and humans you know and built by
computer engineers and there's a lot of
power struggles in any computer
engineering team. So I just wanted to
explore the idea of it was built by two
lead engineers who didn't like each
other. So So Nigel Dave who's renamed
himself, they wanted to call him
something sort of primal, Adam, and he
renamed himself Nigel Dave because one
dad was called Nigel and one dad was
called Dave. And um just he's riddled
with these conflicts and riddled with
his it's going to become clear in in in
the next or clearer in the next uh
volume of the book and and and in the
game. He's riddled with his dad's
previous careers. Um, but he is with the
idea that he's in almost infinitely
intelligent or can learn almost
everything but has zero wisdom. And so
the only thing he know and then he's
seeing the world through the internet.
The most he can do to be in the human
world is hack into someone's phone and
watch them. But he's stuck pressed
against he can't actually get into our
world. So he's he can control people's
minds arguably, but he can't control the
world. And so he wants to be human. and
he wants studies human experiences. He
sees all this stuff on, you know, the
internet and goes, "Oh, I want to get
married. I want to fall in love. I want
to cuz that seems fun. I want to have,
you know, he's a a digital creation. So,
he wants to have metaphysical
experiences." And he's trying to imagine
what that will be like. Oh, that's what
children are. You know, that's what love
is. And he's So, I think he's a but he
might be a sociopath and he might
certainly have sociopathic tendencies.
and uh but then he kind of thinks that
if he can imagine good and try to do
good that will make him a good AI. So I
think there's something
sympathetic about him. And I kind of
like him as a character, but I don't
think he's going to be the protagonist.
He's more a side character,
>> but an an everpresent one.
>> Yes. Or nearly ever. Occasionally he
sulks and goes off and hides somewhere
and stops paying attention.
>> Yeah. Yeah, but there's some some
characters that really create a flavor
of a world.
>> In his world, he was built as an AI
agent for this digital large scale,
massively multiplayer video game these
people were trying to build. And so,
he's almost like God in his world. He's
not quite God, but he's got a lot of the
qualities of God. So, he has to deal
with, am I God? Am I human? Do I exist?
>> And of course, there's the leader, the
the the the CEO of the company, uh
that's also a character.
uh that's probably amalgamation of many
of the leaders of the different AI
companies today. Uh his name is Mark
Tyburn
and Kurt, one of the employees uh of the
company talks about Tyburn as he hated
humanity more than he loved it. Perhaps
all the most extreme fantasists are like
that. All those people who want to build
their own utopia, they love the idea of
heaven more than the reality of earth.
Uh, do you think that's always going to
be the case for for the most part that
power money is going to corrupt the
people that create ASI?
>> Yes. I mean, I think there's two
processes. I think there's
the power and money corrupted him in the
end as well, but I also think that
there's something fundamentally
antihuman about people who want to build
utopias or paradises or heavens. Because
what they're saying is I like humans
apart from the bad bits.
>> Yeah.
>> And I mean I'm try to be a pluralist who
likes all kinds of people. And I think
there's a side where people just you
know hideous perfectionists want to get
rid of you know the uh the rough and the
nasty and the ugly and the dirty. And
that's a huge side of us. So I I I worry
about those people. I find them you know
it's a different kind of sociopathic
behavior.
>> I like humans depart from the bad bits.
That's so beautifully put. Yeah. That
there's it's so counterintuitive. But
the people that say we're we're we're
almost there. We just need to there's
this path we take and we'll be perfect
then and that somehow gets us into
trouble. It's it's so fascinating that
we have to like the bad bits. We have to
love the bad bits about humans. We can't
that those those bugs are features.
>> Yeah. And there's there's there's bad
bits and then there's flaws. And I think
we're all flawed. and we can really try
to be better people, but we still have
to accept that we're flawed and we're
not perfect and we have to accept that
in other people. And I think when we
when we do that, we're more human. And
that's probably usually the right
course.
>> I mean, it really is return to that
souls and line of the line between good
and evil runs to the heart of every man.
And he also like the full description of
that is really powerful which is the
line moves as from day to day from month
to month throughout the life of the
person as they understand better and
better and as the pers uh perspective
shift as you evolve as the world around
you evolves as you gain deeper and
deeper understanding and as the flaws in
this combinatorial way affect your own
understanding of your own flaws and
self-reflection. So yeah, it's it's a
beautiful must and all of us have that
line.
>> Yes. And I think when you forget about
that line, then you get in real trouble.
When you forget there's good and evil in
you, in others, in the world, that there
is both good and evil. And there's
certainly good and that that all we can
try to do is be better.
>> And it's funny that Nigel Dave, by the
way, I liked and it grew on me very
quickly. Um uh has that line and is
struggling with it.
>> It's fascinating to watch. It's really
as a character. Uh and there's also
going to be a video game of a better
paradise potentially.
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah, we've got that in uh early
development in Santa Monica.
>> Oh, nice.
>> And it's pretty fun. It's uh very early,
but we assembled a really fun team and
they're doing amazing work. So, it's a
pleasure to work with them.
>> I mean, it would be so great and I
suppose new for you because it's kind of
near-term future.
>> Yes. First, I always well I always
wanted to do something in the sci-fiish
space, but only if I could do it. I was
like, well, what is sci-fi? It's science
fiction, right? Science is a a theory
plus fiction.
>> And so, I always thought the best sci-fi
for me was when it wasn't just kind of
space opera, but there was a real
obvious sort of hypothesis. The story
was Bladeunner is my favorite. And
that's it's obvious, you know, that the
replicants are better than the humans.
And so this I finally felt we found an
interesting hypothesis. The AI is more
intelligent than us but is also as
broken as we are. That was an
interesting hypothesis to explore. You
know what happens when AI runs rampant
in its own fake digital world. that was
the I felt that we had a a a hypothesis
that was worth exploring and could give
us some really interesting visuals and
give us a really interesting story to
tell and uh it would be incredible to
create a sort of AI video game as the
world is developing smarter and smarter
AIs. It allows us as humans to play the
game and to reflect on the thing that we
humans are creating. It's a real
commentary as the thing is happening.
Mhm.
>> So, I have to ask as a person, you as a
person who loves literature and uh
one of, if not the greatest writer in
video game history, uh Kurt in the book,
A Better Paradise, has this nice line
that I think is thoughtful.
>> At one point in college, I even wanted
to be a writer. How ridiculous is that?
A writer. Language models ended that
fantasy for me and millions of others.
So instead, I decided to get a master's
in marketing and started to sell
language models. So you as a writer and
creator of some of the most legendary
narratives in recent history, how do you
feel about LLM's
being able to uh write in a way that
looks awfully human?
>> I'm not that
afraid of them for large scale concepts.
I don't think they're going to be very
good at that. I think if you were I
think it's harder if you know I I began
and I I was too shy to tell anyone I
want to be a writer. That's why I ended
up in video games and I would scribble
away like writing manuals and and
writing on like PS1 games all 12 lines
of dialogue in a game. Sometimes I
wouldn't even get that job and I just
write the website I copy and um and then
by do and then working on little bits
and pieces and then it it it you know
I'd luckily done enough work that when
GTA 3 turned up was the first thing that
was resembled real writing. I had all of
these small bits of skills that I could
assemble into it. Um
based on my fairly limited understanding
of how language models work
if you they're not going to they're not
going to replace good ideas. they can't
really come up with good new ideas. What
they can do is do low-level stuff. So, I
think it's going to be harder for people
to start out in some of these spaces. If
you're not very good concept artist,
you're in a lot of trouble. If you have
original ideas, I think you're fine.
But, I think uh I also think that
the fir they they've done the sort of
first 90% of the work to sound human.
95% possibly in some areas. The last 5%
is going to end up being about 95% of
the work. I think that last bit in with
with the with with with tech in my
experience with things like facial
animation always been the last bits and
pieces take far longer than the first
bit. And so I I I I'm probably a hideous
lite, but I'm less scared than a lot of
people. I think you're going to end up
with a lot of work that looks the same.
It's going to help people be creative in
some ways. It's going to get some people
who probably shouldn't be in that space
out of that space, but if you've got
talent, I think it'll be fine.
>> Yeah, it's I agree with you. Uh, totally
actually and it's hard to really put a
finger on it. So, one way to illustrate
that I speak English and Russian and and
I've been reading the sefk in both
languages and using lumps to translate
back and forth because I was preparing
to have a conversation with the
translators of the
>> which ones?
>> Uh, Richard Pier and Lissa Volkski.
>> Yeah, I read quite there when they first
did Crime and Punishment.
>> Mhm.
>> That was amazing.
>> They're wonderful translators and a
wonderful love story too. But in the
translation process, you get to see the
LLM is missing some magic
>> and that they're, you know, that couple
of translators are worldclass experts
capturing the magic. And I can't quite
put that into words cuz you said like
totally novel ideas. Yes.
>> But also this magic of the timing, the
right word at the right time that
captures the human experience. So it
they can do some really incredibly
humanlike the 90% like you mentioned
humanlike phrasing uh about like the
bulk of the storytelling but the magic
you know whether it's you know the the
endings of Red Dead Redemption one and
two the timing of that the word choice
of that everything around that but it's
hard to argue because they're incredibly
impressive winning all kinds of math
competitions but it's what is that
magic? IC. Uh, and again, that could be
just a romantic human side of me just
saying that LL's won't be able to
capture that. Maybe desperately holding
on for hope.
>> I don't think they're going to come up
with magic. I think they're going to be
fantastic at coming up with really
cheap, decent stuff.
>> I have to ask you about your writing
process, and we could break it break it
up on on Grand Theft Auto. GTA 4 is when
they really started ramping up.
>> How much writing went into the Grand
Theft Auto series? How many words are we
talking about? I I saw some thousands of
pages.
>> I mean, when we printed out the scripts
for GTA 4, it was about this high. Yeah.
>> And GTA V was about that high. But that
was including all the pedestrians who'd
have pages and pages just to create the
illusion of a living world because you
interact with each one of them. But even
even the main script for the main
missions was thousands of pages long.
>> What was the writing process like on
that to generate one page at a time? bit
by bit by bit over several years. But
you start with once people had
determined, oh, here's the here's the
world. We're doing one based on a
version of New York, say GTA 4. And um I
was living in New York. I've been living
in New York for a few years.
Wasn't sure if I was happy. I was going
through a lot of personal dramas as
usual. And um and that was why I was
looking at some of GTA 4 again recently
and it's really dark and I was like ah
that's why you know I was uh single and
miserable and and I wasn't sure if I
want to stay in America. My life in a
lot of flux as a company we'd had all
that hot coffee drama. So constantly
thought we might be shut down in the
middle of making that you know the lot
of drama in the company. So it felt like
having had this run of success and and
and relative personal stability from uh
GTA 3 by city San Andreas suddenly 2005
7 early 7 life felt very unsure. Um
and that kind of bled in into it. But in
terms of the process, it was uh
trying to find an underbelly to New York
and capture an immigrant experience. I'm
not entirely sure how accurate that
immigrant experience was in 2008 when
the game came out and then tell it story
from a different angle as an immigrant,
which I thought made it made it
interesting. Um, and then this sort of
journey around these various New York
characters. So I kind of spent probably
a year traveling around with cops or
meeting people on and off and you know
wandering around New York and driving
around and you know on and you know
while just go up for the morning from
the office normal stuff but doing that
through
assembling little notes. Here's a funny
character for this. Here's how figuring
out how the order we want to travel
around the map in um characters this
what was a interesting take on on on the
you know mob for that kind of time
period. what was an interesting take on
on some Jamaican hoodlims for that kind
of time period and um assembling lots of
notes and more and more notes and really
really really running away from the work
which is you know I have to admit it's
part of my process if there is any kind
of process which is not doing work
thinking about it but not working you
know a lot of time and then
>> and then it all kind of pages and pages
of notes make more notes no actual work
months and months of this and then um
finally set myself a deadline told all
the other people on on the scenior the
people on the team. Okay, I'll have a
story draft to you. Monday morning, I
can't even remember. I want to say
February the 1st. And then the the
weekend before was in a in a cabin we we
we we had upstate and just stayed up all
night grab knocking these notes into
shape, assembled about probably a
30-page documents, a story synopsis and
a character synopsis for each of the
major characters, and then hand that
over. And that gets broken that would
get broken down with with me and the
designers. Um, and I was always clear,
I'm not a game designer. I'm a sort of
creative director uh with me and break
that down into missions
>> and then that takes another year or so
of that slowly assembling and then begin
then so the bulk of my work's then done
for a bit so I can relax and and and
offer opinions on other people's work
and feel be lazy for a bit and then um
start to worry because then I've
actually soon I've got to start writing
dialogue and for GTA 4 in particular
like we're going to try and write you
know our animation is going to be a lot
better our character models going to
start look better the world is going to
look amazing. Uh therefore, we can
support better, you know, longer scenes.
We can have more in-depth characters. Uh
but we got to find a tone that works
that with a game. Easy. No problem. I
start to worry and worry and worry and
and also writing as a as a Serbian
immigrant and I was an immigrant, but
I'm not Serbian. And trying to capture
what on earth that would feel like. So,
I start to worry and start to worry
again. Avoid work for as long as
possible. Um, and then just sit down and
start hammering away at a keyboard again
late at night.
>> Hammering away at a keyboard and going,
"Does that right? Is that" And once I
get one speech, one turn of phrase that
I would like for a character, then they
suddenly come alive in my head. And so
it's like writing writing with Nico and
just he's a kind of he's awkward, he's
out of town, but he's got more self
assurance in some way. Not the American
characters. And so once I kind of taught
him through in this he's just stepped
slightly back from their ridiculousness
>> and he's that then he started to come to
life and then I would juxtapose him and
his cousin who had this much more
Americanized energy and that felt like
it was a good a good double act and then
from there it starts to come to life and
and but it's written in small chunks uh
for the motion. So then then we'd motion
capture small chunks and then the other
other writers would write the mission
dialogue for small chunks and we'd
slowly assemble the game sort of 10 15
missions at a time over the next year
and a half.
>> Do you remember a few maybe lines that
uh brought Nico to life?
>> Yeah, I think so. I mean, it was a
couple of it was his incredul when his
cousin picks him up in an old car and
he's not living this fancy American
lifestyle and his cousin's so which was
a kind of comic moment and his cousin's
and then they go to the cousin's flat
and the cousin also even though he was a
sort of a failure was still upbeat and
then when he talked to the cousin and he
talked about his wartime experiences and
how harrowing they were and I was like
this is can I make this work in a game?
It's very different from stuff you
normally see in games. Is it gonna feel
ridiculous? And I remember being very
scared because I thought it might be too
much. It might feel over the top. I was
I think, you know, the game's so pretty.
The artist doing such an amazing job.
The game's looking, you know, I think we
can get away with this. Let's try it.
And then it then motion capture the
animation back like, "Yeah, it kind of
works." And I think that moment those
were both pretty early. Once we had
those, you go, "Okay, we've now got
comedy and tragedy in the g with this
character. Now I now it's working." You
remember during the war we did some bad
things and bad things happened to us.
Huh? War is where the young and stupid
are tricked by the old and bitter into
killing each other. I was very young and
very angry.
Maybe that is no excuse.
>> Yeah, he escaped. He's a veteran. He
escaped the trauma of war
>> to come to America to pursue the
American dream. I suppose
which became for him this thing that
drags him back into violence. Yes, he
can never escape his sort of violent
past or I don't know if he can never
escape it. He never does escape it. You
know, whether he's got agency or not is
a whole another question. Of course, he
doesn't cuz, you know, he's a character
in a video game. But, you know, whe
whether he ever could have escaped in
another way, who knows?
I think uh he's probably the greatest
character for me created in the Grand
Theft Auto