Kind: captions
Language: en
everybody Welcome to impact Theory
you're here because you believe as I do
that human potential is nearly Limitless
but you know that having potential is
not the same thing is actually doing
something with it so our goal with this
show and Company is to introduce you to
the people and ideas that are going to
help you actually execute on your dreams
all right today's guest is a hacker
turned neuroscientist he is a
fascinating blend of a wide variety of
disciplines and this diversity has led
him to explore some promising albeit
non-traditional ways of investigating
the brain namely cracking open the skull
and peering inside whilst the person is
still living what he's found is so
interesting it makes my eyes bleed and
has made him a much sought-after speaker
and leading thinker who is influencing
Academia and business in equal measure
his education is a wondrous grab bag of
joy and includes a PhD in Neuroscience
from Cal Tech and both an MA in
philosophy and a BSC in physics from Tel
Aviv University he's a visiting faculty
member at mit's media lab and his work
has been published in such prestigious
scholarly journals as nature the highest
ranking journal in the world as well as
widely distributed Publications such as
Scientific American mind wired and New
Scientist he was named one of the 40
leading professors under 40 and his
groundbreaking work has brought him a
claim and a attention from all over the
globe including Hollywood where he's
been tapped as a consultant and
contributor on such hit shows as Mr
Robot my favorite Limitless bull falling
water and Ancient Aliens he's also the
Alfred P Sloan professor at the American
Film Institute where he teaches a
screenwriting course on science and film
he holds multiple patents and is a
multi-time national storytelling
champion whose talks have garnered him
millions of views please help me in
welcoming the professor of Neuroscience
and business at the Kellogg School of
Management and the Neuroscience program
at Northwestern University the
neurosurgeon who has actually walked
into a bank and robbed it Dr Moran
[Music]
surf thank you a lot of pleasure man
thank you so much for joining
us and I think the only reasonable place
to start with you is to ask how does it
feel to Roba Bank it feels uh remarkable
I think
um I'm trying to go back to the memory
of doing it the first time it's
something that you kind of can at your
life before and after your life is how
many times have you robbed a bank I
robbed a bank the way uh you mean as in
went into a one and stole the cash four
times wow and stole money virtually
dozens of times because so the stealing
money virtually was your job right um
but walk us through how you end up
walking into a bank and actually robbing
it so there are a number of people right
now whose job is to actually break into
Banks and still the money online so this
is a job it's called pentester you hire
by the bank's board to try and kind of
find ways to online steal the money this
is common there are some banks who would
let you also try to test the physical
security which would mean to actually go
there and see if the cameras are
pointing to the right place if someone
left the post note with the password on
the computer and also to actually go and
say hey give me your money wow it's not
that popular among hackers because
they're not really good at that normally
but every now and then you'll hear about
a group of hackers who tried it and we
were among those who went and said let's
see if we can rob the bank the way you
know westerners did it so how do you
then end up becoming a neuroscientist it
your job was pretty sexy it's not like
it was droll and boring you were robbing
banks and hacking computers so the the
story involves a lot of characters to
influence that but I would say that the
one person who influenced me the most is
Francis gek who was at the time maybe
the most influential neuroscientist
studying Consciousness in San Diego that
I happened to meet when I was a hacker
so totally doing something else in my
life and had an evening with him and in
this evening he kind of learned about my
career and he said your job is to
basically look at a black box see what
comes in what goes out and learn how it
works this is what hackers do he said
think about using that in something
that's going to be much more valuable to
the world which is looking at the brain
the brain is this Black Box instead of
trying to kind of figure out the code
try to see how people behave understand
what they do and learn how their brains
work to make it happen and this took me
two years to actually apply the advice
but it's really interesting so you're
talking about Francis Crick from cck and
Watson the people who discovered the
double helix of DNA which is pretty
interesting and honestly till I started
researching you I didn't realize how
recently he was active it sort of felt a
little more distant to me um
you've called him your idol what what
was it about him in particular that made
him your idol so um first of all he
tackled the interesting questions right
there's a lot of scientists and they
kind of try to do the same thing many
many times just to kind of accumulate
more knowledge on the same problem he
was not that kind of guy he really tried
to look at all the things that I was
told as a kid are the interesting things
in science but you should not ever study
them until you have a Nobel Prize you
know studying dreams Consciousness
whether there's aliens out there free
will all the cool things that we kind of
think about when we were kids but are
told as we enter Academia don't ever
touch this thing at least until you get
a Nobel Prize he was looking at all of
those things and really kind of diving
into them so I felt that this was what's
interesting and you actually made a list
right when you first started your was it
your PhD you made the list of like here
are the important questions I think I
want to explore day one on my fridge I
had this posit note with all the things
that I wanted to do if I ever get a PhD
and uh among those things were the
things I mentioned all right so let's
take them piece by piece and I I'm
really fascinated by free will certainly
um and I'm assuming that you followed
Sam Harris in terms of his talk about
Free Will and all the stuff that he's
done on that um what is it that draws
you to Free Will why are you interested
so I think that in a way there's an
application to Free Will right we live
life thinking we make decisions all the
time and are responsible for our
decisions and also kind of determined
and defined by those so if I ask you
what do you want to have for lunch and I
offer you five different things you make
a choice then your choice is somehow
your identity this is like what you what
you care about and if I told you right
now that I could predict what you're
going to choose an hour before you made
a choice a day 20 years before it kind
of takes away some of our identity in a
way but
also kind of gives us meaning because it
says okay there's actually a narrative
that we carry with us throughout life
and now now the choic has become really
something that defines who we are not
just the moment of but as a person in
the world so I always car about like
Free Will understanding it predicting it
and also using it to change things so if
you if you think that okay all my
choices are kind of determined do I have
any meaning to my life the answer is
they're not determined we do have
control over them and that's what makes
us kind of human so you believe that we
do have free will or you believe that
it's totally different than how we're
thinking of it and we have to totally
reimagine it so there's like two kind of
moments that need to be addressed one is
whether we do actually have this moment
of spark that happens when the choice is
totally arbit and we have like a choice
I do believe that we have that free will
kind of a TOS of a coin where something
gets determined but what's interesting
is the moment where we become aware of
the Free Will Choice as in I ask you you
sit in the restaurant and I ask you do
you want the fish or the steak there's
this moment like you have two options
and now you're about to make a choice
what do you want steak steak for sure
you had a second now where you had to
look at all the options I gave you only
two and make a decision so now at some
point if I asked you when did you make
the choice you would say well maybe as
soon as I finished the sentence maybe I
would maybe you would say a a fraction
of a second afterwards the question is a
how far before did we know the answer to
that also did was there anything I could
have said differently that would have
make you say the fish and most
importantly what's the gap between the
moment you would tell me that's the
moment I chose and the moment that you
actually chose and apparently there is a
gap and this Gap is what we call the
illusion of free will the moment where
you say that's the moment this is t z
this is when it happened and I can look
at your brain and say you know what
actually here we already knew that
you're going to choose or even like even
if you want to take it one for step we
can actually stimulate your brain and
make you choose this thing and I will
tell you and say who made the choice you
say I definitely make the choice myself
this was my decision and I say well you
know what here's me zapping your brain
before making you say fish here's me
zapping your brain do you zap it with
trans cranial magnetic simulation so
this is not me but there are people who
know do this so what would you do can
you really do the steak fish one there's
the only demo that that I saw was one
person basically having a little box and
they have buttons and have to choose
whether you want to press the left or
the right but and people sit there and
they press left right right left left
left for like 10 minutes and then
someone asked them was it your choice
which button to press at any point say
of course and then you zoom out and you
see a person sitting with a TMS like
this machine that looks at their brain
and basically playing like a pueter left
right right get the [ __ ] out of here
that's real that's real and what's
interesting isn't that you can do that
this is not surprising we know that we
can actually zap your brain and make you
move your head what's surprising is that
you would tell me it was my choice like
you would you would believe that it was
your decision you wouldn't question the
fact that what you did was your decision
and to me the interesting part that we
we kind of have this way with our brain
to always defend it and always say
whatever I did I wanted to do if I made
this thing it wasn't my choice and now
we know that it wasn't necessarily your
choice that things affected you that
things made you do what you did and you
will always claim that it was your
decision so we can actually show you
that you're not really fully how people
respond when you shown them funny ER
they mostly try to defend Free Will so
they try to argue with me and you know I
show them the video of me changing thing
and they say no no no we have experiment
where we bring them to the lab and we
just tell them things we say okay what
do you want to eat after the experiment
what do you want to sit here or there we
ask them to make decisions and we don't
really tell them anything just say take
decisions like sit here or there do you
want this pen or that pen do you want
the light on or off and then we ask them
after the experiment how many choices
you made the people who experienced us
toying with their free will think that
they made hundreds of choices they made
about 14 but they really feel that okay
I had so many choices I controlled
everything this was my decision they
kind of tried to grasp into the idea of
Free Will and say I had a lot of ches in
my life and I made them they become a
little more religious they become a
little bit more ethical a lot of things
happen to you when you feel that what's
in question is your identity that is so
interesting and I've heard a lot of
these studies and I have not heard where
you're literally playing Congo drums on
whether they do the right and left I've
seen the one where um you know they're
about to do it before they do and so you
turn the buttons on essentially to buzz
them and tell them not to press which is
hilarious um but I didn't know about
that one so interesting so okay you're a
guy with deep background in narrative
teach a screenwriting course for God's
sake so help me understand how you know
that you can manipulate the brain and
yet you still believe in free will but
it sounds like you believe in Free Will
in the way that it's tied to your own
self-narrative so here's the idea I feel
that uh there's a lot of things that
affect our decisions the temperature in
the room the height of the chair the
weight of the book we're holding a lot
of things and this is studied by a lot
of people in many many ways that show
time and again that you can actually
change a person's behavior and we can
list those things so someone can take
them and now have a kind of you know
list of things that they can apply if
they want to have better interactions
with people what temperature should the
room be what they should do so we know
that we know that thing and at the same
time we still live life as if it's our
decisions entirely so we know that I can
trick you by you know making the price
of the food $6.99 rather than 7even and
you would think it's six not seven
that's like the simplest one in the book
and all of us know it and it still works
taking that to a larger scale we know
that there's hundreds of thousands of
biases that affect our brain and even if
I tell you what they are you will still
work the same way so free will is
becoming interesting to me when we learn
all of those things and we say okay then
who am I kind of what's the what's who's
in who's in charge who's the Puppeteer
in this example and the reality is that
there what we learn is that there are
more than one Puppeteer in our brain
there's many many and every day one at
the guy wakes up and so one day we're
this guy one day we're this guy and
they're kind of vying for dominance they
fight and they compete they kind of make
a decision together they they vote and
ultimately we protect the person who
spoke last and we say this is who I am
and to me what's interesting is that we
can now actually show all the characters
we can show them fighting we can tell
you that there's more people in your
brain and in doing so we can can
actually allow you to really manifest
different sides of yours so you know
maybe that you're making better choices
in the morning and I make better choices
in the evening you might know that
you're making better decisions when
you're hungry and I'm when I'm full when
you're talking to your friends when
you're alone so we can now profile your
brain so if somebody's watching this
right now and they're thinking okay wait
do I make better decisions when I'm
hungry or full night day what what are
you looking for and what can they look
for at home so I would say what we do
with with a lot of people who are kind
of in senior positions in companies that
want to actually make decisions better
with we have a protocol that's a little
bit tedious so it's not easy to do it
but I'll tell you what it is and then
you can think of ways to maybe try it
yourself so we have them basically walk
for a week with a diary and make choices
and just write them down so tell us like
you know I had this fish or the steak
for lunch and I chose this and this how
I chose and and they also write whether
they were happy or not with the choice
now this is done the way they would do
it normally but we also add one more
thing we put EG cap on their head all
day for more than 24 hours so they walk
with something that measures their brain
activity and there's moments where we
have to replace the batteries there's a
lot of like gaps there but all together
we have them walk through life with both
living life the way they do and reflect
on the the choices but also have us look
at their brain and what we do at the end
of the 3 days one week as long as they
would do that it's kind of uncomfortable
and embarrassing sometimes H we asked
them to kind of look at all the choices
and tell us which ones were good which
ones were bad and then we look at their
brains and we see what was their brain
looking like what what did it look like
when they made choices that were happy
with and we sometimes see that there are
things in their brain that are kind of
repeated so maybe they make choices more
using this part of the brain that I'm
I'm trying to simplify it by looking at
parts of the brain that are more
emotional rather than like rational we
see that they activate more parts of the
brain that are bu deep inside it has to
do with reflection rather than like
thinking so we kind of and we tell them
you know here's what we learn about you
you are better in this and that state so
that's one thing so it's kind of not
easy to apply because you still have to
have this thing on your head right so
not everyone can do that but at least
people in Senor positions who feel that
you know their ches are critical come to
us and they say Okay help me I want to
know who I am better now what about the
the study you did where you've got the
cyclist on the bike they're going hard
hard hard hard hard and you watch for
certain brain states where you know okay
they're going to quit and then you use
that information over time to get them
to delay quitting farther and farther
how does so behind that lies a the idea
that the brain is kind of like a muscle
and specifically there's a part of the
brain that we really care about it's the
part it's doing self-control so if you
think about it in simple way to look at
it is that you start running you go
running uh the first mile your legs say
let's run and the brain that controls
them says let's run and another part
with says no problem at all after one
mile your legs say it's a little bit
painful but the part say other brain
that controls them say keep going after
10 miles the leg say I want to quit and
the other part say no keep going and
there's like a battle there and at some
point you're going to break now when
you're going to break depends on a lot
of things your muscles but it also
depends on this kind of control coming
from the front of your brain that
overrides your experience your pain and
if we can see this moment where you
breake the moment where you stop despite
the fact that you can do a little more
we can come back to you tomorrow and say
let's do the same thing you did
yesterday have you run only this time
when you get to the moment when we see
that you're about to break we're going
to play a sound we're going to tell you
that we can see that you're about to
break and we ask you to just continue
for one more minute at this moment that
is beyond where you did yesterday
what in that moment how do you appeal to
them is like come on [ __ ] like
you got this or that's basically it's
right there's a question in sports for a
while why is it that people do better
when they play home game versus outside
game like what what is it about your mom
being in the audience that makes you win
the game like we we in theory they
shouldn't matter like throwing the
basketball should be the same but
somehow we know that if your friends are
there if you're feeling better we know
that people do better when they're
already kind of winning there's a lot of
things that affect our brain and what we
try to understand right now is where is
it in the brain what is this part of the
brain that gets better when your like
when your emotions are are highlighted
or heightened and now we're seeing it
that is so this is life like what you're
talking about right now boys and girls
at home I'm telling you there's a
banality to being an entrepreneur there
is a willingness to suffer to being an
entrepreneur to being a great mom like
whatever it is that you're trying to do
suffering is involved and it literally
like the being able to extend your
breakpoint is what it's about and when I
read what I was going to say is that we
we all face those moments when the alarm
buses at 6:00 a.m. we set the alarm at
10: p.m. and suddenly in the morning
we're different people like we're not
the person who wants to wake up anymore
and it's the same brain that at the
alarm at 10 p.m. but now suddenly at
6:00 a.m. we're not the same guy this is
the moment like that we have to make a
choice when we're going running when
we're about to eat a cake there's like a
Tasty Cake and we're on a diet and we
say oh I shouldn't eat the cake but
there's a conflict and we now is the
moment where those two parts of the
brain come to life and the more you know
about yourself the more you aware of
those situations the better you can do
in controlling them and the more you
know about yourself you can do better in
all of those tasks and that's kind of
the ultimate thing that that's why we're
here we're giving you the knowledge and
once you know it doesn't work anymore
once you know that 699 isn't seven it's
harder for it to work so just knowing is
enough for people to do better to know
that it's in your capacity to change and
that's what we want like how does
somebody become more self-aware how do
they begin to identify those things that
are particular to them so that they can
extend their breaking point or so that
they can you know improve whatever so so
all we need to do is we need to
communicate science in tangible way so
people would know all the options I said
there's 100 do of options but there are
actually a couple of hundreds of biases
that we humans have I can give you
examples in a second once you know them
they don't work anymore so the job of
scientist is to just translate the
knowledge of the brain into words that
can be then spoken to an audience who
then lives by them and that's it so all
we need to do is just do this speak to
people and list their biases then it
doesn't work anymore then then at least
when it happens you become a little bit
better in controlling that that's all we
need it's pretty simple once you know it
it doesn't work so how about I mean
let's use an example from your life so I
love the story by the way of you're
about to be published in nature it's
your first big break in science I mean
this is really going to set up your
career and then someone wakes you up
from a nap and and you basically say
yeah recording dreams is possible you
can't take it back you're like wait wait
that's not quite what I meant and it
goes crazy but the part that I love is
um Christopher Nolan calls you up and
says hey I just did this movie Inception
you're now the dream recording guy uh I
want you to come with me and do a
worldwide tour which would be a huge
break for you and just be I'm sure money
and certainly
notoriety um and you had to think about
it even though you knew going means
essenti reinforcing this opinion that I
actually don't agree with um but turning
it down means that I pass up that
opportunity what what did you go through
in the 24 hours before you gave the
answer so this is so to give you the
full story I'm finishing my PhD I just
decideed what I do next am I continuing
in science do I go like back to being a
hacker this like a moment of a folk in
my life and suddenly this comes this
moment where the end of my 5year PhD is
getting a lot of attention but all wrong
this my career hinges of this thing then
I have suddenly an option to actually
own this thing and become this dream
expert even though it's based on a lie
right um so I I was fortunate enough to
have enough checks and balances that I
didn't really have to to go far with
that so here's the interesting
reflection that I have right now so I
knew it's impossible to look at people's
dreams and I that I kind of set it in a
sleepy State and created this like
amazing
a story for people that scientists and
not recording dreams and the mistake was
to leave this to say you know it's not
possible I'm not going to own this thing
even though the world cares about it so
if anything can be learned from these
things that the world really wanted to
have people record dreams because that's
why it's such a big thing because people
cared about it it was in dreams are
interesting and I went and I said it's
impossible and I want to kill this story
this was the mistake and interesting 3
years later I'm sitting at home now 2013
and I got a call from BBC again BBC were
the first one to kind of you know let
the story go ER aray and they call me
again and they say uh Professor surf we
want you to comment on dream recording
and the possibility of doing that and I
say guys are you kidding me we're done
with that this is not true like let's
not even begin going down say no no we
know that you cannot do that but we
wanted to comment on the work of
Professor kamitani from Japan who's
doing it right now
so someone in Japan didn't know that it
was impossible he just didn't hear me
going anywhere public and saying it's
impossible so he just did it so 3 years
after I said it was impossible someone
did it and two years after that I joined
so now half the thing we do in my lab is
actually looking at people's dreams so
we the mistake I made wasn't to say
something is possible when it was not it
was to say something was impossible
before I knew that because I think that
science is all about going to those dark
places and trying to find what's
impossible my mistake was to say it was
impossible possible before I was sure
about that so I should have said we
don't know yet we didn't do it yet but
we should investigate I was quick to say
I didn't do it it's impossible so I
delayed things by 3 years 5 Years After
I'm doing it right now dude can I just
shake your hand I [ __ ] love that so
much like
that's like most people cannot look at
something like that and say the mistake
that I made was actually in the opposite
direction and I should have been Bolder
I should have made a wiser Proclamation
and then to to actually join the team
that's so so cool dreams is something
that I was told not to study now that's
what I do in my lab every day now I'm
never saying something is impossible
before I'm certain that it's impossible
wow I love that I'd love it even more if
you if you would go so far as to say
nothing is truly impossible then you'd
really have me I'll go with that so like
you you mentioned that I teach
screenwriter and I and screenwriting and
I and I work with TV the reason I do
that is because I feel that the best
ideas for my research come from those
hours with the kids to write plays
with the fellows at the American Film
Institute who writes science fiction
from movies that that that inspired me
like the Matrix you mentioned that like
this is inspired us we were kids of 1999
what happened then affected us star
affected my dad's generation the best
paper that I ever written has a thousand
of
citation the episode of Limitless that I
worked on last week and you know came
out has 5 million people watching it and
those are the kids who are going to be
me in 20 years and if they think oh this
is maybe possible they're going to do
that you ask me how to change Behavior
this is how to know what the
possibilities
are I love that so much so here's the
the people watching this show they know
my story very very well and and I'll run
it into the ground because it's so
important I am not an example of what
happens when innate Talent meets hard
work I'm an example of what happens with
a human being anytime hard work is
applied because I didn't show early
signs of Promise uh I got a 990 on my
SATs that was taking it twice um I don't
qualify for mens or anything like that I
have a average-ish IQ I mean it's like
none of my sort of raw materials are
very impressive but I work hard and I
work hard over a very long period of
time and in doing so I've completely
transformed my life and I've transformed
my mind to the point where now people
just assume I'm smart the same people
right that were looking at me 20 years
ago did not assume I was smart but they
do now the reason this conversation is
so important to be having with a
neuroscientist is it all comes down to
me to The Narrative that you tell
yourself when I was undereducated and
lost and um bordering on depressed and
all of that it it was because the
narrative that I told myself was that I
was a victim of something once I gave up
the victim mentality and I realized I
can do anything that I set my mind to so
now it's a spiritual question right like
if you really believe you can do
anything you set your mind to then how
you spend your time is a spiritual
question and once I said okay what I'm
going to spend my time on is
self-improvement I'm going to see how
how much can I manipulate my own brain
so I began researching the brain to
understand what's malleable what's not
learning about myin if you don't even
know what myin is to like think that
you've already sort of maxed yourself
out it's [ __ ] crazy so researching
the brain finding out the anatomical
mechanisms that are at play and then
coming to okay this comes down to
self-narrative if I'm telling myself
dreams can't be recorded then they
really can't because I will stop shy of
that and when you're talking about you
know never saying that something's
impossible when you're not really sure
what I start thinking about is thinking
big like thinking really big and
watching The Matrix and saying okay
either that level of VR is actually
possible or um stopping bullets is
actually possible like you know whatever
the thing is that you sort of take away
from it and time travel was one of the
things on your list
and the the promise I make to people
watching this show is from watching the
show you will accomplish more than you
would have if you didn't watch the show
and one of the key reasons for that is
you'll finally understand that if you
fail to think big that's on you and the
only reason you're not thinking big is
because you're scared because there's
nothing in the the mechan naations of
the brain there's nothing in what has
come before you in science nothing that
would lead you to believe the thing you
currently think is impossible actually
is let me say this in Neuroscience words
I love it so here's how I'm going to say
it your brain goes with you and it
carries all of the history in the form
of memories all you have from what
happened before you is stored in the
form of memories and they're not
accurate and they're kind of compressed
so that's all you have about the past
you have no idea in the future even
though your brain tries to predict it
all the time this is what dreams are for
this is what decisions are for you try
to kind of simulate the future and make
predictions you don't know what's going
on all you have is this kind of sliver
of reality which is the present which is
all you have and you control everything
that happens there the nice thing about
the present is that actually it
interacts with everything in your brain
and you can change things what we
learned in The Last 5 Years is that
memories are are different in how they
work and what if I had to summarize it
in one sentence they change every time
you use them so if you have a memory
stored here of what you had for lunch
yesterday and I ask you what did you
have for lunch you basically open the
memory right now and you tell me a story
but whatever happens right now goes into
the story and you save it differently
and if I ask you tomorrow what you had
for lunch you'll open the modified
version so every time I ask you the same
question you open a different version
which means you can actually change the
past you can actually change your
experience of things this is why therapy
works right you go your girlfriend
breaks up with you you go to the
therapist she asks you what happened you
tell the story she intervenes you save
it differently they ask you a week after
what happened you tell a different story
after five meetings you have a different
version of the reality and that is
powerful because it means that we
control the narrative that we have we
don't really have to be kind of confound
to the story that we experience we can
actually change it this is what the
brain is for to simulate and change and
adjust and synthesize better version of
life we can make ourselves happy we can
make bad things look better we can
control things and it's all by virtue of
just telling a story looking it
differently and saving it again it's as
simple as that we have the ability to
actually change the story all the time
so learning is one way to do
that thinking and reflecting about
oursel is another way to do that having
more experiences allows us to do that we
know all of this now so suddenly there's
there's kind of essence to this
self-help book that we read when we were
kids and we know how to implement it I
become preacher but I no man I love it I
love it and I hope people are listening
to your sermon because this is like that
is the most important thing anybody
struggling to have success should know
is the narrative that you tell yourself
about yourself is the most important
thing you have and if you tell yourself
story of um struggle
inadequacy um not being good enough
failure like all of that then then
that's going to reinforce because that
that literally becomes your identity and
going back to what you're saying at the
very the very beginning you've got
people and they're justifying why they
made some choice right and when you said
do you want the fish of the steak dude
inside I was like my narrative as a
human being is I'm the guy who chooses
the steak right like so I that wasn't
even difficult it would have been easier
if you said steak or cake cuz I'm really
the guy that chooses steak over cake but
it's like that's that's pure narrative
right that's what I want to tell myself
and so when I like the big breakthrough
in my life the big breakthrough on a map
of my timeline if you were going to put
a demarcation point it is the day I
stopped thinking of myself as smart
because I wasn't and I started thinking
of myself as a learner that changed
everything because now the narrative
that I was reinforcing the memories I
was pulling out changing just a little
bit and then putting back all revolved
around reimagining myself as some
somebody who learns faster than other
people is willing to learn will put in
the time and the effort to to learn and
so it became this identity which was
antifragile right because now you could
tell me that I was stupid and it didn't
matter it didn't hurt me it just
compelled me to learn more the reason I
shook your hand earlier is I really am
moved when you say I was wrong about
that I should have done this like
anytime people can say that can just own
a mistake and see a better solution I
that's somebody who's polishing a
self-image in a way that's antifragile
that the more they look at that failure
the harder they go in a new and better
Direction it's really incredible all
right I want to ask you all the
questions that I get asked to which I
have no answer and I'm hoping cuz I get
asked these questions a lot all right
number one how can I get more motivation
and it's the one thing cuz I've never
lacked motivation I don't know how to
help
people and tough um so here's how I
would think about that um so motivation
is a word right it's it's a it's a label
that we put a set of events in our brain
uh what you actually want is the outcome
of that you want to do things that when
you when it's hard so I think that there
are a few kind of things that that we
know work one is H evidence of past
successes if I C do and I go back to
your memories and I reframe them as
successes suddenly they suddenly the
current event that's the same is Success
so I think that one one thing is like
having success stories and
identification stories as in you find
there's a lot of people out there there
was a person that is like you that had
similar experience and chose the thing
that you want to choose find this person
or these people and it's going to robing
to you so I I get asked by my students
often how do I become funnier how do I
become smarter and and like my one tip
that I give them all the time is
surround yourself by people that you
want to be like you want to be funny
just sit next to Comm just go to the
same room they are and just sit next to
them it's going to rub on You by osmosis
because it's just it's the environment
that is around us that really changes
everything and and other people said
that before but I'll tell you the
Neuroscience behind it we know now that
uh trins interact with each other
through language in way that
synchronizes the brains so when I talk
to you right now if you're engaged with
what I say it means that if we scan our
brain right now our brains are going to
look alike more than yours and someone
on the street that isn't here so two
people in the same room as soon as they
kind of interact their brains literally
start kind of if you want pulsing in the
same way parts of the brain light up in
the same way Parts shut down so we
actually are affect this is how we
affect each other this is how
communication made humans who they are
this is the one thing that makes us
better than all the other animals
because we are able to communicate using
language affect each other brain and
create narative that don't exist
together we both believe in things that
we've never seen before like God or or
or ideas that like democracy or or money
like those things we invented and we can
communicate them and create this image
in people's brains and they all share
this thing so in the same way if you
surround yourself by people that you
want to be like you hear them
communicate they change your brain and
it's going to rub on to you you actually
become funnier if you sit and listen to
funny people next to you you can
actually become more motivated if you're
next to people that are motivated the
next version of that if you cannot find
them if you're sitting right now in a
rural part of Alaska and you can't just
find yourself in Los Angeles with the
people you want to be with is to
actually just look at them on videos on
books and that's the way our brain
basically gets content and change so
changing brains happens many many ways
but the easiest one that everyone can
try is to say what kind of world I want
to be in and bring this world to you in
the form of movies stories TV shows or
people that's the the ways to kind of
get things that you want next to you and
do you think when you're doing that that
it's um you're getting into a repetitive
brain firing pattern that ultimately
wires you actually change your brain so
so we didn't mention the the science
behind it much like in terms of what we
do but we put electr in people's brains
and we look at their brains while things
happen to them and we actually see it in
happen in action we see how the brain
changes when people communicate we see
how the brain looks when to when you
watch a movie we see how your brain
aligns with the movie and when you tell
someone else the story of the movie
their brain aligns with your brain but
aligns also with the brain of the
director of the movie so communication
is this mechanism by which information
flows between brains and changes the
brains and actually if you want to take
it one step above this is also how we
change ourself because we talk to
ourself all the time you walk H you
drive your car or you walk to to work
and you're just alone with yourself and
you communicate you also change your
brain you kind of solidify the things
that you want to be more like and you
suppress the ones you don't want so we
always talk and those voices those are
basically the other characters in our
brain that talk to each other you kind
of choose which one to give more weight
too so this is how you become the better
person you want to be so we actually now
play with things that change behavior
during the night when you're sleeping in
the following way yes we
actually so this is another new thing
from the last 10 years in Neuroscience
uh that was kind of finally discovered
which is you can learn change and
transfer overnight so if you look at the
night if you go to sleep and for 8 hours
sleep it's not really a uniform
experience night is not really just the
fall as sleep in you spend eight hours
just in the same state you actually have
phases we call them stages and cycles
and they have different things that
happen in them and one of them is the
stage where We're Dreaming that's when
our brain basically simulate future
options and shows us a movie of things
that could happen and allow us to live
through them thinking their reality it's
the ultimate VR we actually live life
thinking that we're there thinking how
it would be to live with her in Alaska
or to quit the job and move to Vancouver
really have this experience filter it
through our emotions and then wake up
with the answer what to do this is one
stage but there's another stage it's
really interesting stage three and four
of the sleep we call it slow sleep it's
a stage of the night your brain
essentially takes all the experiences
from the day before and waits them and
chooses which ones to keep and which
ones to take out so if you think about
life when you go through your day there
are many many moments that you call the
present about every one and a half
second you have a different present and
then it goes into the past it becomes a
memory and you go to the next moment and
you leave it and then you store it in a
memory then when you go to sleep your
brain looks at all those 50,000 moments
that you had and says okay when I walked
from home to the bank I had 20 of those
moments they're not really important I
should compress them into one keep just
one remove the others when I kissed her
it was a moment that I want to remember
every fraction of so I want to keep all
of them individually as like one like
big stock of like experiences your brain
does it during slow wave sleep during
this moment it kind of chooses out of
all of them and picks the ones that
important what we learned in the last
five years 10 years is that we can
actually do things to you at this stage
when you're sleeping that will make you
change the pointer we can choose for you
to focus on the work to the bank rather
than the kiss and in doing so we're
going to basically make you strengthen
those memories at the expense of others
we do that by using smells or sounds
that we play to your ears in the right
moment the smell of the and you judge
that right moment cuz you're actually
watching like a readout of what's it has
to be done the more thing is that you
can't do it at home you can't just spray
the smell in the wom all the time you
have to do it in the right moment
because that if you if you just spray
smell in the womb it's going to wash out
you have to kind of Target the brain in
the right moment but then the brain is
going to say I smell this thing this
means that I want to focus on this
moment and strengthen that and what the
experiments that we're doing and others
are doing right now show is that you can
actually make a person learn things when
they're sleeping you can actually change
their behavior you can make them H
choose to focus on different behaviors
that they want to change and wake up not
doing this thing you can actually do
things so the the classical experiment
that was really popular in the last
three years 2015 was people come to the
lab and they're smokers and they want to
quit they go to sleep for 2 hours and
the experimenters wait for the moment
when their brain is in this state where
it's kind of listening to the outside
world and reassessing life then they
spray the smell of nicotine into their
nose making their brain think okay out
of all memories I have let's focus on
those that have to do with smoking and
then immediately after they blast the
brain with smell of rotten the smell of
rotten eggs which basically makes the
brain rewire and and and take nicotine
and wire it with like bad experiences so
you do that a few times when they're
sleeping they wake up they have no idea
what happened but then suddenly they say
I don't really want to smoke anymore for
a few days they actually changed their
behavior they don't want to smoke not
knowing what happened they just came
took a nap wake up and they don't want
to smoke this is a changing ever
Neuroscience you find the moment you hit
the brain with it you change the wiring
and a person wakes up a different person
that is amazing do people freak out
about that like good or bad the answer
is they do but but they shouldn't and I
have an analogy that's going to be the
kind of way I look at it go back 406
years ago 1610 Galileo galile points his
telescope to the moons of Jupiter and he
looks at their orbit and he expects it
to go in one way but it doesn't it goes
in a different way and he kind of tries
to understand what's going on there and
the only way to solve the equation is to
realign the planets of our Milky Way
galaxy and specifically the solar system
by putting the sun in the center and put
Earth is the number three planet in the
system which to him is a dethronement of
humankind what does it mean that we're
just one more planet out of many we're
not the center it feels horrible to him
it changes everything but the equations
require that so he does it and in doing
so he basically allows us to now see the
wide Riches of the universe suddenly we
see that the universe is much bigger
than we imagined and we can explore it
and in the next 400 years we saw more of
the universe and we learned a lot about
what is out there now in the same way in
the Last 5 Years we begin to understand
that in our own brain there are many
many voices and we are not the most
important one we're not even the center
we're just one more voice out of many in
our head and we're the one who think the
most important but actually the quiet
ones that don't really talk to us are
the center of our universe now this to
us again feels like a the one of
humankind what does it mean that I'm not
the center of my own universe but the
reality is that this will allow us to
understand the most important and
interesting thing in the universe which
is us that's I think a profound
understanding yes it's scary that we're
not responsible for our choices that
they happen to us that we're creating a
narrative based on things that we're not
really full in control but that's the
beauty of us because now we can actually
explore more things in our brain and
learn how things happen and maybe we'll
understand how to become B people it's
really interesting I somehow ended up
being a preacher tonight I have no idea
how it happened but I'm going to take it
yes please and uh preach now about the
self-deception um how essentially it
feels like the layer that we view as us
or the voice to use your vernacular the
voice that we view as us is um is trying
to Cobble together this narrative based
on these decisions that are made by the
quiet voices um how can we leverage that
to either um just tell ourselves a more
empowering story or to actually get the
quiet voices to do what we want them to
do that's more in line with our our
goals um and and very specifically with
self-deception um how can that become uh
um a tool that we're using in a
self-aware way to push us forward it is
too that we're deceiving ourself but we
have to change the the veillance of the
statement to a positive one self
deception sounds like a bad thing for
sure this is our brain's way of saving
us this is our brains self deception
it's still a deception it's still not
living through reality the way it is but
this is actually a mechanism that our
brain created to optimize the world we
know that our eyes offer us only a small
kind of fraction of all the things that
the world has but we call this reality
we know that our nose smells only what's
right here and our noses even aren't
where the smells are the smells are down
here and our noses are up here we don't
even smell the we don't even place all
of those things mean that our brain
deceives us it always offers us a
reality that isn't to that's great this
allows us to uh have a different kind of
view of the universe that we get to
create ourself so on the one hand we
kind of want to know what's out there
that's why we invented a xray sensors
and UltraViolet sensors because we want
to actually know what are all the Rays
of light that are out there that our
eyes cannot see that's why we develop
all those smart tools to hear things
that are beyond the the the frequencies
that are ear can get we we we want to
know what's out there but our brain
through years of evolution created this
self-deception recity in a way that's
perfect for us it allows us to to live
life in a comfortable way one of the
things you talk about along the lines of
self-deception is people are really bad
at understanding what they want and
whether they're intentionally deceiving
themselves intentionally deceiving you
as a researcher um one thing I get asked
a lot is somebody wants to to you know
be fulfilled they want to find a career
that they love they want to start a
company but they don't know what like
how can people get good at understanding
what they
want so I would say that the best way is
to be aware so be aware meaning like
take how okay take a not so so with with
so we see actually we look at the brains
of people we see how few repetitions of
a message does it take for your brain to
rewire and now have it solidified we can
show you eight times eight that's that's
so it's kind of varies but but that's
the that's the kind of like area so we
show you eight times uh this person next
to this item and first when you see this
person this cell lights up in your brain
the cell that codes Tiger Woods lights
up when you see Tiger Woods we show you
Gillette another cell lights up we start
showing you two of them together after
eight repetitions of them together
suddenly the cell for Tiger Woods also
codes Gillette and say for Gillette
called suddenly the cell kind of
absorbed and that's it so eight
repetitions is very little this is the
amount of time that commercials need to
be shown on TV before you say okay now I
know that this is the spok for this band
that that means that that it's it's very
easy to uh place in our brain in our
brain things that we're going to change
it and now that we also learned that
know this numbers are pretty small we
can also look at what times of the day
so we know that there are times of the
days where it's even three times what do
you think that has to do with is that
like a circadian rhythm thing is that a
a level of alertness tied to food like
it's surprised by that all of the above
so our brain has you know a lot of like
clocks in it if you want there's clocks
and there's environment
so so in a way it's it's simple so the
Neuroscience kind of proves what we can
do behaviorally very easily just pay
attention learn surround yourself with
people that we care about ER and kind of
decide when we want to be fool than when
we don't want to be fooled I think that
this historian I really like said that
100 years ago their biggest threats to
humanity were famine plague and War
basically it's over those are no longer
a threat for us if someone is hungry
right now it's because politically we
want them to be hungry there shouldn't
be any hunger in the world but there is
because of reasons that Beyond us but
basically we conquer the things that we
should be right now it's a lot more
scary you're a lot more likely to die
from overeating than undereating right
diabetes is a lot bigger threat to us
than malnourishment so in that sense I
think we conquered a lot of things and
now we're at the level we start playing
God we're starting to kind of think what
can we do to the body that's going to
make it better we're privileges we
focusing a lot on happiness and what
would make make us happy we're extending
life to its limit and now we're
realizing that the one thing that we
don't know how to deal with is not the
extension of life but the quality of
life so a lot of us are going to get to
to age 150 you and I but we might spend
the last 50 years not being there we're
going to our bodies are going to be
there but our brain is going to be
basically not able to do the thinking so
a bunch of neuroscientists I'm helping a
little bit but it's a project that is
beyond me are trying to fix that and
this is really the science fiction
aspect the way to fix that is not by
actually fixing the brain using drugs
but by replacing components of it so
what we're doing right now with
synthetic biology or with the chips like
you basically take a chip and you so
there are parts of the brain that uh are
almost like a bridge so things come from
the in and get processed here and go out
and it's a lot of things could come in a
lot of things could come out but it's
finite set there's a table of millions
of things that could come in for them
there's a clear what comes out the idea
is that when you're starting to Decay
when your Alzheimer emerges we're going
to put electrodes in your brain and
learn how the in looks and how the out
looks and learn that while you're
decaying and when you get to the state
where you're really no longer out there
we're going to take out the part of the
brain that's biological that failed and
we're going to put a chip instead and a
Chip is going to now do the take the
input from here wow and now you can open
it to questions like is it still me if
there's any of those chips that kind of
bypass W that's being worked on right
now it's already working with rats with
rats you can actually induce Alzheimer
and then replace the faulty Parts with
chips that that do the mapping done here
in Los Angeles by guys at USC man you
really getting it it's a exciting B
you're opening Pandora's Box like this
is insane I love this [ __ ] yeah we
should talk about ethics in the end
whenever you tell me that they ready we
should talk about let's talk about
ethics because there is an interesting
part so I'm spending my time half half
my days in a business School M and this
could be seen as a no like a really
selling your soul to the devil by
helping people sell more Captain Crunch
overnight to a person who's in phase
three of their night you can bombard
their brain with buy Captain Crunch and
they're going to wake up and they want
to buy Captain C instead of smoking less
can we switch that to Quest Bars
please so the idea is that is that that
there's like a world right now where
neuroscientists are spinning up and
they're finding things they're finding
how to change Behavior over the night
where learning how we can change your
biome and make you a different person by
playing with your gut uh bacteria that
makes you different we know how smells
affect your behavior we can make you
like this woman not that woman by
playing different smells in the womb a
lot of things happening and no one is in
control of that because policy makers
are slow takes them a while to create
the policies but the people are really
fast are businessmen and marketing
departments they're really fast they
hear about it and they say okay let's
let's apply that and my students yeah
the MBA students are the ones to say hm
that's interesting and my job and that's
kind of why I feel it's important to say
it here is to remind those students how
bad they felt when they saw the $699
they say oh come on I feel like I'm
being screwed someone tells me that it's
$699 to fool me but I want it to be just
the fair price of $7 I would know why
why do they play with my tell them in 20
years you're going to be the guy who
sets the price an item and you're going
to have the option as well to go for
$6.99 and make a person buy or you can
say I'm going to be the better person
I'm going to not try to play on all
those biases and kind of change things
and I think this is the reality we have
to have right now because scientists are
going to offer you a lot of tools to do
good or bad and we have to choose as
Society how we play with them can I give
you what I think is the right answer now
I'm talking to the School of Management
guy instead of the neuroscientist here
but so as a as an entrepreneur as
somebody who's um built a food company
in particular um the answer that I came
to because I'm very much trying to
convince you to buy and what I realize
is we're living in an era where
companies have an obligation a moral
obligation in my opinion a moral
obligation to make products worthy of
being used if you're making a product
that actually delivers value and that's
so important and yes I get it who
determines the value and I honestly
think that the company have to be able
to look themselves in the eye and say I
believe this product is good for you
100% And if you believe that it's good
for the person that you're selling it to
then using the tools and techniques to
get people to buy it that makes sense to
me it all comes down to what you're
pushing and promoting because if you're
I mean think about policy makers trying
to get adoption on even just policies
like getting STD tests or whatever the
case may be that things that are good
not just for that person but for so
society as a whole you have to sell it
you have to get people to believe in
that thing so as long as that thing is
good for you I think getting people to
believe in it's all right I think I
think that a scientist we have to expose
the world this is why we're here to all
the options and including the ones that
will be good for you and the ones that
going to be bad for you and then have
you really understand how to make a
choice better yourself that's we are
it's good one last question for you
what's the impact that you want to have
on the world the one thing that I'm
really good at and I should do is find
ways to take complex ideas and make them
into something that is tangible for
everyone so this is the impact I want to
be I want to find ways movies
conversations products students to have
everyone have the option so I want
everyone in the world to know enough so
they can make a decision by themselves I
love it thank you much for coming on the
show man that was incredible fun guys I
think we all are thinking the same thing
right now where can we find you
online uh I have a website that I built
in the last couple of weeks that's I'm
pretty that's pretty good I think it has
my name morans
surf.com but then again I have so many
stories I told and uh students that take
the message out there so if you just
look for ideas you'll find me somewhere
buried in them nice well I can tell you
from experience if you drop his name
into YouTube You're Going to get a
treasure Trove of amazing talks watch
them all
they're incredible I hope you guys had
as much fun with this man as I have I
promise you I will be working to get him
back for round two it is rare that I say
that on the spot but I'm telling you I
could go for round two that would be
amazing I had so much fun picking this
man's brain the diverse way that he
approaches everything he does is
incredible you're going to see that as
you dive into his world watch the talks
and hear him go from one subject to
another he can go deep business and
really like nuts and bolts business
marketing and then switch it over and
show you photos of an actual brain with
electrodes in it and what they're
learning from that it is utterly
astonishing I have rarely seen a human
being who can so rapidly and beautifully
Traverse the line between Academia and
business for anybody out there that
wants to be at The Cutting Edge of
what's happening in marketing you're
going to want to look them up it is
absolutely phenomenal and from one
narrator to another as somebody who
believes in the power of story my friend
you have a unique ability to do it it's
absolutely incredible watch him on the
moth storytelling see the stories that
allowed him to win the awards they're
amazing all right guys this is a weekly
show if you're not already following me
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friends be legendary Take
Care thank you so much what a pleasure
man he everybody thanks so much for
joining us for another episode of impact
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