Kind: captions
Language: en
hey everybody Welcome to impact Theory
you were here my friends because you
believe that human potential is nearly
Limitless but you know that having
potential is not the same as actually
doing something with it so our goal with
this show and Company is to introduce
you to the people and ideas that are
going to help you actually execute on
your dreams all right today's guest is
one of the most widely recognized names
in modern neuroscience and his unique
approach to his work and life continued
to bankrupt my ability to explain him
but let me try he's the writer and
presenter of the amazing International
PBS series the brain and he's published
multiple best-selling books and over 100
academic articles for prestigious
journals such as science and nature his
work is utterly captivating because his
infectious enthusiasm makes it really
clear that he's filled with wonder by
the things that he doesn't understand
he's not a guy that uses science to
blind people people who Delight in
life's mysteries instead he uses science
to become fluent in the language of
nature his mother said that he was a bit
of a weird child which doesn't surprise
me he wrote his first words by the age
of two was explaining Einstein to her by
the age of 12 and he used to memorize
400 item lists for kicks and then repeat
them backwards to test his memory his
prodigious curiosity ambition and
intellect have made him an adjunct
professor at Stanford helped him create
generation companies and have earned him
numerous accolades and honors including
being made a Guggenheim fellow being
named Vice chair of the world economic
Forum in the area of behavior and
Neuroscience and being invited to join
the board of the long now
Foundation beyond the awards however
lies a mind that is able to synthesize
the vast and Uncharted dual universes of
the macro and micro and distill them
into something profound and accessible
to the human mind nowhere is that more
visible than in his best-selling
stunning work of literary fiction called
sum 40 Tales from the after lives it's
been translated into 28 languages and
turned into two different you guessed it
operas the ideas he explores in the book
make a parent a truly beautiful mind so
please help me in welcoming the man
whose work has been said to have the
unaccountable jaw-dropping quality of
Genius the internationally bestselling
author of incognito the Secret Lives of
the brain and the Brain the story of you
Dr David
Eagleman all right thank you for having
me thank you for being on the show I
have been a long time stalker as you
know since we bumped into each other one
fateful evening during the xprize yeah
uh which was awesome and since then I
have been utterly obsessed with getting
you on the show so do you know that I
have a a book list of like the 25 Essen
books everybody has to read I didn't
know this all right so I do and
Incognito has been on there from day one
literally when it was only a 10 book
list Incognito is on that list I think
it's just super foundational um to
people understanding the brain and and I
think we have to take the time fact
right to my a camera I will tell you I
must acknowledge every time you guys
have ever heard me say that the the
thing that makes the brain so profound
is that it is encased in total darkness
and yet paints this beautiful world for
you I got it from this man here so the
finally fully acknowledged so thank you
for that yeah all right I want to start
[Music]
um with a question that normally I don't
but I think that this is something that
people really need to understand so for
a minute you were almost a stand-up
comic then you were briefly at Oxford
and then ultimately got into
Neuroscience why the
brain I um I I majored in British and
American literature as an undergraduate
but my last semester I took a course on
neurolinguistics and I think it's
because um I had taken a lot of
philosophy courses which I loved but I
understood that we really need to
understand the perceptual Machinery by
which we're viewing the world to answer
a lot of these questions and in fact a
lot of these questions would sort of go
away or change character if we
understood how we were actually
constructing reality so that's what got
me interested in the brain and what what
began that Fascination and I asked that
with the context of having read some so
and and until I read some I don't think
I understood you or at least um I
understand you in a completely different
way after reading it was really
surprising um briefly just what what was
some what sparked it and wasn't it the
first book that you wrote yeah some was
the first book I wrote It's a book of
literary Fiction it's 40 short stories
all of which are mutually exclusive and
um I was already well into my science
career when I wrote that and I feel like
it's just a way of using literature to
get at the same sorts of questions that
science are trying to get at uh that
science is trying to get at it's it's
just a way of exploring the world what's
interesting is that they use slightly
different uh techniques so you know
science we've got reproducibility and
double blind studies and so on but
literature you get to ask all the
questions where science runs up against
his borders where it sort of runs out of
its capacity to ask the question then
you can ask those in writing so that's
what that's what Su was about and give a
couple examples of the types of stories
that you tell in that cuz they are
utterly fascinating oh thank you um yeah
I'm just asking questions like what if
uh the universe expands and then when it
contracts the arrow of time reverses
what would it be like to to live uh our
lives in Reverse um what would happen if
your life was chunked up so that you
lived all of your experiences that
shared quality grouped together um so
you know you spend uh 21 days driving
the street in front of your house and uh
30 hours of pain and you know uh 56 days
sitting on the toilet flipping through
magazines and so like what if you had to
do all these
experiences grouped together like that
these are all just ways of exploring our
our life um as we know it by just
changing the angle on it a little bit so
it's 40 stories and I think the experi
if you tell me but the experience that I
intended for the readers is to stretch
out mentally in in directions that maybe
they'd never considered before it's
interesting I did get some of that but
the real juice for that book for me was
to by taking an oblique angle or maybe
even an absurd angle on my life in in
that
comparison that it revealed absurdities
that I'm living with today and the one
that you were just talking about where
you say okay what if you lived your life
in you know the sequential order that
was the one I think that re and it's
like if not the first story it's one of
the first stories
and it it cuts right to the heart of how
much time am I doing driving sitting in
traffic waiting in a grocery store I
mean and I don't know how long you
labored over like which ones you
featured and like how many minutes you
assigned to each one but it it really
felt like a commentary it certainly
became my own commentary on my own life
to think about how much time I spend
like so I have this real aversion to
email and the reason I have the aversion
is because of that flash Insight like
that about how much time you spend doing
things like this yeah um so it was
really really interesting yeah you know
there's one thing I have to deal with
which I didn't expect to but there's
some misinterpretation about the title
sometimes someone sees a title they see
40 Tales from the afterlives and they
think oh he's he's become religious or
something but it's not that at all um
what they are are in some sense
deconstructions of religious myths um
and to me this seems like one of the
most
powerful um ideas or or stories to tell
is about what it would be like to have
created the Earth and and the places
where it's gone that you don't have any
control over anymore so that's uh I
guess that's one of the themes I was
obsessed with without even realizing
that yeah is it intentional for you that
the more you learn that the more
expansive your you become more
open-minded or so it would seem from the
outside is that intentional I don't know
if it's intentional but it is definitely
what happens it's the
um it's this has always been my opinion
about science at least since I've been
in it for for decades now is this issue
of how science is really an
understanding of the vastness of our
ignorance and so as we move forward you
know we figure out lots of little things
which is terrific but but essentially it
opens up new folds in the possibility
space where we realize all the things
that we don't know and um you know every
qu every answer leads to so many more
questions and so it seemed I don't know
when you're a kid and you're flipping
through science books it seems like oh
everything's already known but when
you're in it as a career it it has the
opposite feel like gez it's all
uncharted waters out here and obviously
we write science textbooks and so on
sort of summarizing what we know and and
unfortunately giving the message to the
Next Generation that it's all known so
you know part of my goal has been really
expressing the vastness of our ignorance
I mean very basic things like um how
does Consciousness arise why does it
feel like something to be alive when the
brain is as far as we can tell put
together out of physical pieces and
parts you have an enormous number of
neurons like 86 billion of them but it's
still physical stuff it's only three
pounds we've got the problem cornered
and so and so the question is if I make
a a very fancy computer program I can
make it super fancy but it's not going
to feel like like something it's not
going to feel the pain of pain or or
experience the redness of red like it
can detect wavelengths and say oh that
is 56 nmet wavelength but it's not going
to experience red or the smell of
cinnamon or the taste of feta cheese or
something like that so that's the that's
the heart of the most fundamental
question sitting right in the middle of
Neuroscience is wh why does it feel like
something as opposed to just being a
robotic system of of cells that are
moving around we don't know the answer
to that we don't even know what a theory
would look like
that's the that's the position we're in
and of course it's like this in all you
know in physics what is going on with
dark matter and dark energy and so you
know I mean we were faced with such
massive questions and this is why it is
exciting to be in science as opposed to
um the idea of well we've pretty much
got it all figured out yeah I love that
about your approach and that's why I was
simultaneously surprised and not at all
surprised to see that you'd written a
work of literary fiction which by the
way I tracked down because you made an
obscure comment and one of your
interviews about how fiction was your
first love yeah and I was like H so then
just through like climbing around that
world saw that read it and I literally
just paused my research and read the
book straight through and was like wow
so the the line in the intro about you
synthesizing the macro and the micro so
you talk really really cool about that
and you talk about it in some you also
talk about it in some of your scientific
lectures that it's so hard to conceive
of things so Grand as the universe and
it's so hard to conceive of things so
microscopic as existing at the molecular
or Atomic level because we're not on
that same scale so how do we grapple
with that stuff and bring it down and
the reason I wanted to really belabor
the point of some was just that in all
of that exploration and the thing that I
think has really set you apart from the
rest of the world of science is it seems
to be expanding your umelt yeah uh it's
expanding your vision of what the world
is and what it could be the the more you
know obviously links to a realization
that there's something even bigger that
you don't know but if you would share
the story of what's going on with the
Hubble the Deep uh space exploration
that they're doing and and how it frames
things for you oh yeah that was some
years ago the Hubble telescope did
What's called the Deep Field observation
where they took a little patch of Sky
about a thumbnail size of sky and that
looked completely blank right yeah
exactly they picked a dark spot in the
sky and they trained the Hubble Space
Telescope on that spot and they
collected photons coming in for I I'm
forgetting how long now but for some
period of time maybe it was 20 days or
something they collected a bunch of
photons um and and when they developed
the shot that they had what they
discovered were there were thousands of
galaxies in that little spot there and
of course this is true of any spot any
direction that you take
anywhere whole you know galaxy has like
a 100 billion stars any number of which
might have planets rotating around it
any number of those might have you know
be in the goldilock zone so it's not too
hot not too cold and and have some form
of life on it and just the fact to to me
that was so revelatory it was so
mindblowing to think that in any spot
there's that much action going on and of
course that's just at the limits of what
we can see now but at every moment in
time there's sort of a limit to how far
we can see and
there's stuff even beyond that I mean
physically just in terms of looking at
galaxies um so anyway what we're facing
is um this weird moment in time when we
as a society are smart enough to think
about the size of the cosmos and the the
probability that there exist other life
forms who the heck knows what the like
we're DNA based but is that the only way
to go might there be completely
different ways to construct life um to
construct language to construct
societies um so we're in this weird
place where we know that there must
exist life elsewhere and yet we we've
had no contact with anybody right now so
we're still sitting here all alone just
waiting for something to happen it's an
amazing time yeah it uh very fascinating
and um the to bring it all back together
for people from a contextual standpoint
I saw an interview that you did with um
he's a guru of some kind Mystic
and he s Guru s Guru s s Guru so that
was what I love about that and this will
tie everything up and above why I've
started with some and why I want to know
why you want to do this and the notion
of being Lost In The Wonder of what we
don't understand so we're living in a
world today for me where people are
trying to whether it's business they're
trying to become an expert whether it's
in science they're trying to nail
everything down and know exactly what is
true and what is false there's a a
narrowing of scope and a as somebody who
won and I we'll debate this later I want
to live forever um did you ever read
Einstein's dreams I did yeah okay so
we'll talk about that in a minute uh I
want to live forever and so I the thing
that scares me is my beliefs calcifying
into Dogma that my world will begin to
collapse in on myself as I believe that
I'm an expert I know something and and
we'll get lost in that and won't be open
to new ideas you've talked about how
Crick one of your mentors would that be
fair to say um even up until the day
that he died was always looking for
things that disproved the things that he
knew rather than confirmatory evidence
which I think is really brilliant but
when I saw you in that interview with
sad
Guru he who's a Mystic by the way you
have to imagine this guy he's like
covered in robes head to toe like the
big beard he looks like he stepped off
the pages of a cartoon right I mean he
looks like a character right and you
approached him with such authentic
interest and like his position and I was
like okay I know you as a scientist a
guy deep logic really trying to
understand where the brain is going and
and actually trying to push like the
limits of our sensory perception and you
know we'll get to that but that you were
able to approach him actually interested
in hearing his answer you weren't
combative where does that come from uh I
mean it just comes from a position of
feeling like I really don't know
anything I just um you know I'm just
trying to figure it out I mean this is
the weird part we're we're you're born
you don't remember where you were before
you were born I mean you just have this
sense of you've always been here in
other words you don't you don't have a
sense of like oh yeah this is when I
started you've just sort of always been
here and then you're going to die
someday or maybe you won't but uh we
might die someday and then presumably um
you know then that's just over but
everything about our existence is so
weird I just I find it amazing and cool
so um yeah that's where that comes from
is not pretending that that we've got
the answer you know it's funny because I
I see that there are two fronts in
science that are going on in terms of
Public Communication of Science and one
of them is
um one of them is sort of this front
that the Neo atheists have taken which
is trying to tell people the ways in
which they're wrong in the way they're
thinking and and there's some importance
to that because there are lots of ideas
that we can address scientifically and
actually rule things out of the
possibility space so that's really
important I'm sort of on the other front
though which is I'm not to me I'm just
not that interested in telling people
all the ways they're wrong I'm just
interested in figuring out the new
structure of the possibility space so
where new folds are opening up and this
is all to my mind this is all predicated
on science this is the scientific
mindset is saying all right we've got a
wide table we can fit a lot of
hypotheses on here let's try to figure
out the next step and the next step
instead of imagining that we've got it
all figured out so that's that's uh
that's the part that attracts me the
gravitational pull for me of doing
science yeah and so my last thing on
sort of the wonderment of all this and
then we'll move on to the highly
tactical but it uh to me the thing that
draws me to science the thing that makes
me so fascinated with the brain the
thing that compels me to pursue success
more doggedly than the next person is
the sense of it all being a spiritual
Pursuit that I want to see how far I can
push it I want to see how far I can take
the limits of being human and where are
the edges and how far can we push that
out and you know when you get recursive
enough like the alternate version of
this interview which is me being like a
two-year-old and asking you why why why
why why until you either have a meltdown
and walk off or like we get to some sort
of basic fundamental truth but I think
the real and and for me that is the why
the humanities and the science right
which you have both in Spades um but I'd
be asking you only to get to a
confirmatory answer that I already
believe which is it's just beautiful
like it's just interesting right and I
don't have anything more than that but
it it it is makes me feel alive right
and so I think that's where and and like
I I promise we will go into the Tactical
but that's where this all gets
interesting for me and that's where I
hope people pick up a study of you
that's where I hope people pick up a
study of the brain is is the wonderment
in all the things that we don't know and
to be so thrilled with the things that
we do and then what that means and how
we can push it so as an example that
tell us what you're doing with
neosensory like what that is how it was
born where it goes and you know what we
can do yeah so I've been interested for
a while in this issue
of um how the brain gets its information
so as you flagged at the beginning there
you know the brain is locked in silence
and darkness in the skull and yet you
have this experience of all the colors
and the sounds and the touch and the you
know the touch from your toe and all all
the stuff the smells The Taste and and
that's very weird because all this is
happening inside you think I think I'm
seeing you over there even though in
fact I'm seeing you in here and so on um
you just freaked me out with that I've
never quite made that leap yeah okay
yeah it's totally freaky the whole thing
is now it's like really with me
uh yeah okay yeah I know but this is
exactly it this is exactly the thing
about the study of neurosciences that
the more you start reaching your arms
down into it just the weirder and
weirder the whole thing is and this is
our existence so somehow this is this is
the thing to figure out um but what I
got interested
was how does the brain get information
in there so you've got all these senses
like your eyes and ears and nose and
fingertips and so on um and I'll just
speed up to say the the conclusion that
I came to after looking at this problem
for years is I think that these are all
just peripheral plug-and-play
detectors and um and they're useful so
for example the range of light that we
see with our eyes that has everything to
do with the big ball of Fire in the Sky
um and the way that electromagnet
magnetic radiation bounces off things
and whatever it turns out that this
little strip of visible light is the
most useful the most information
relevant for us to see so we've
developed eyes to see in that range
hearing touch smell these things are are
useful for our survival so we've got
these things the theory that I developed
around this I call the pH Theory which
stands for Potato Head and the idea is
that you just plug in these detectors
and you're good to go and that mother
nature um developed the principles of
brain operation which took a long time
and once she's done the hard work of
that then she can plug in any kind of um
you know Potato Head thing and it
doesn't matter and when I look across
the animal kingdom I just I never cease
to be amazed at the variety of things
that are plugged into different
animals um that pick up on very
different information than we do so give
a couple examples uh snakes have heat
pits or the black ghost knish has
Electro receptors so it can pick up on
electrical signals um
um a lot of birds and animals and uh
insects have magnetite so they can pick
up on the magnetic field of the earth
and so on and these are all just
different input things where they can
they can take in information that we're
not taking in and they can do something
useful with that um so I got interested
in this question of well if if the brain
is just a general purpose Computing
device and you can stick in any kind of
information you want could you feel need
a different kind of information stream
to our brain so what if you fed
real-time data from the internet for
example could it develop a perception
about that so so one way to stick new
information into the brain is to do you
know neurosurgery and stick electrodes
in but that's a really lousy way to do
it that'll never catch on um and so what
I did is I ended up building a a vest
that's covered with vibratory Motors and
um so imagine that you're wearing this
vest underneath your clothing um so no
one even knows you're wearing it but
it's it's got all these motors on it and
I can turn any kind of data stream into
patterns of vibration on the Torso and
then the question is can the brain come
to understand those patterns of
vibration and have a new kind of what
philosophers call a qualia which is that
you know the the the feeling of seeing
or hearing or touch or what can can can
you develop a new kind of um perception
of the world so I'll give you one
example of where we've already um done
this so we've done this with death
people we put the vest on them we train
them up with these little games on the
phone and uh and they can come to
understand the world through these
patterns of vibration on their torso
it's actually doing exactly what your
inner ear is doing which is busting
sound up into frequencies and sending
that to the brain we're just doing that
through the Torso and and it works and
people can come to understand that and
that sounds completely wacky but it's no
more wacky than like a blind person
reading Braille it's the same sort of
idea which is to say you can get
information to the brain any way that
you can get it in there and what kind of
vocabulary do they have like how big oh
uh infinite in the sense that what I'm
doing because I'm capturing the
frequencies and putting that on the
Torso they hear everything they hear the
car they hear the door slamming they
hear the coffee pot Brewing as well as
language as well as multiple
conversation so they're hearing
everything exactly as you do with your
ear even though we feel like sound just
somehow pipes right into our heads in
fact all our ear is doing is taking it a
soundwave breaking it up into its
different frequencies and then sending
that via different uh lines to the to
the brain to the sort of central
operating uh Mission Control Center so
uh that's all I'm doing here I'm just
breaking things up into different
frequencies and that goes to the spinal
cord and up to the brain it's exactly
the same thing how normal is their
ability to conversate through the device
so uh uh so totally normal
but um let me say we're we're constantly
changing up algorithms trying things so
we're still in the middle of lots of
studies on that but the way that it
works let me just uh tell you the way it
works is we present the phone presents a
word to the vest so you feel and then
you have two words that are shown was it
you know knee or shop and then you you
know you have to figure and you make a
guess and you're right or you're wrong
this is for a deaf person to train up uh
so then they get the next word and they
have to guess was it this word or that
word and so they keep guessing and so
they're they're starting off at chance
performance at 50% what happens over the
course of days is that they get better
and better and better and it's all
unconscious learning because the
patterns are too fast to sort of say oh
I know exactly what's going on uh the
signature of conscious learning is where
you have a Eureka moment but but that
never happens they just get better and
better and
better and also they can watch your lips
while they're feeling that and also they
can vocalize so they you know say
something they feel it which is by the
way how you know how a baby trains up
with babbling you know you're you're
doing motor output and you're hearing it
and that feedback loop we're just
replacing with this feedback loop so um
yeah so people can learn every you know
they can learn what this sounds like and
the glass and whatever and what's their
um subjective opinion on it do they love
it is this like oh my God it's like a
cacophony of Madness like where do they
fall on that oh yeah no they they they
come to understand what's being said in
the world so they love it the the
interesting thing I've learned by the
way is that the deaf Community which is
53 million um there's a fraction of the
deaf community that does not want a
solution um and so they hate it but for
the people who are deaf and want a
solution this is uh this is this is to
them something that is a completely new
dimension
because uh it's a wearable so they don't
so you know a clear implant which is the
only other solution you have to get an
invasive surgery for it costs about
100,000 bucks
this we can make for you know a thousand
bucks and um and it's just a wearable
that you put on um so people people
really uh uh appreciate the solution and
what I love about this is that I can
spread it around the world very easily
at that price point most inventions
reach the wealthy people first and then
have to trickle down over a long course
of time but this is something that go
all over the world wow and so what's the
timeline on that like when do we get
when will we start seeing we're about
seven months from Rolling off the
assembly line wow so I didn't I didn't
actually realize how what an enormous
process it is to to build something you
know start a company and and get the
thing to the point where it's a product
but that's uh yeah we're making great
progress that is a huge undertaking and
you've done another company Brain Check
yeah what are you guys looking for so I
mean I know what you're looking for
early signs of say Dementia or damage or
whatever but what do you do when you
find it ah so with brain with brain
Chicken in particular so it's uh it's
tablet um it's a tablet game essentially
where in five minutes you take these
little games and we figure out 14
different measures of what's Happening
under the hood reaction time perception
cognition decision making we can
understand a lot about what's happening
we can get a cognitive snapshot in this
short time and it turns out that's so
simple an idea but that's something that
hasn't existed so in in the medical
landscape you know we go we get our
blood pressure tested we get all kinds
of things tested but what happening
under the hood we never get tested like
how are you doing cognitively and you
know people can do this at home so what
we're doing now is we're setting things
up with Hospital systems and providers
so that they give the app to all their
patients so that at home you know every
two months you get dinged that it's time
to take your brain check the hospital
doesn't have to do any extra work and
for the patient they're getting this
continuance of care where they're
getting to see how they're doing
cognitively so you can track through
time what's going on with somebody and
that way we can see when somebody's
turning the corner into for example U
mild cognitive impairment which is the
stage before dementia and the reason
that matters is because when people are
cognitively impaired a bit that's when
all the pharmaceutical treatments can
actually do something once they're fully
demented there's no there's no help or
hope and um and the problem I mean I've
seen this a hundred times people start
getting dementia but they don't visit a
neurologist until it's far too late
because they a hundred ways of denying
it they say you know it's been a tough
year it's been whatever I'm I'm not
getting enough sleep and so on they deny
and deny until it's too late right so
that's the idea there uh so as far as
what can be done about it the the answer
is this is what navigates your medical
care so that you know which way to go
you know whether something is wrong or
not cognitively and are there anything
things that somebody with normal
cognitive function can do to elevate
like how do we start pushing the mind a
bit Yeah I want to do some cool stuff
yeah the general story yeah the general
story about that is that um it's about
seeking novelty because with the brain
uh it very quickly gets into uh when
you're repeating something the brain
puts less and less effort into it and
you're not forming new connections and
so on but when people push themselves to
do novel things all the time that forces
new connectivity and so um the best
thing that people can do I mean we don't
really have to worry about it at our age
but you know once we get to a certain
point and when you you when you get to
200 um the the thing you have to worry
about at some point is the issue of um
your world shrinking and doing the same
little things and not sort of expanding
and seeking new things so um isn't there
a name for this it's like the default
when you go into autopilot oh I mean I I
talk about this is the unconscious brain
which is um you know which is
essentially almost everything that you
do so everything about you know the way
we the way we shift shft on the seat as
our you know as our blood needs it and
we uh and and talking and so on this is
all generated
unconsciously um but when you enter into
a complete novel situation where you
really don't know what you're doing
that's when the conscious mind has to
sort of be a part of what's going on and
and and that's when you form new
connections and make new Pathways so
that it turns out is I mean this is a
very general statement but that is the
most important thing for people as they
get older is to seek new experiences and
that's the thing that often doesn't
happen especially when somebody has
retired so my my whole belief about the
meaning of life it's not the exact right
word but um is to find out how many
skills I can acquire that have utility
then put that utility to the test and
surface of something bigger than myself
so that's like my mission in life right
so what are things that I should
understand about the brain that would
allow me to acquire more skills acquire
them faster um put them to use more
effectively like what are either
realizations about the brain or training
techniques that I should know
about um yeah I mean a big part of this
has to do with the the fact that we live
our lives mostly on autopilot unless we
put a lot of effort into not doing that
and so um so just by getting off
autopilot I'm but wouldn't that so
that's ultimately just sort of making
new connections so examples that you
give often time drive home a new way
brush your teeth with your left hand
yeah um and I certainly do feel the
impact of that like from a Stave off
neurogenerative decline that seems to
make a lot of sense and you've talked
about the nuns who donated their brains
to science why I don't know but that's
incredible and all of them right had
like early stage dementia but they
showed no signs not all of them but a
much bigger percentage than anyone
thought about a third of them wow had
had Alzheimer's but it wasn't clear when
they were alive because they were so
cognitively active because they were
doing stuff they were first of all they
were embedded in in The Social Network
cuz they were living in the convents and
so they had responsibilities and
conversations and so on and that made it
so that even though their brain was
falling apart with Alzheimer's nobody
knew it they they didn't have the
cognitive effects there and is this at
the center of your upcoming book
livewired yeah it's you know the theme
of that book is that you can't really
think about the brain as hardware and
you can't think about it as software
it's this weird other thing that I call
liveware which is that it's constantly
reconfiguring its own circuitry so
everything that you learn every little
thing changes the the pattern of
circuitry in your brain so when you
first learned that my name was David you
know that that's underpinned by a
physical change in the structure of your
brain which is wild I mean every single
thing that you learned I have another
question which is um do you have so
Joseph Campbell said you want to change
the world change the metaphor and I've
long had a suspicion that the metaphor
of the computer as like metaphor for the
mind is missing something maybe it's
just this notion of it being alive and
it can change itself but do do you have
a metaphor that you use to explain the
brain to people essentially that's what
my book Livewire is about is is trying
to understand how we can rethink about
the metaphor of the brain because
um we've understood for a while now that
a computer is a really terrible metaphor
for the brain and and unfortunately it's
it's it's pretty embedded in the way
that the culture thinks about the brain
and even among neuroscientists they'll
talk about okay how do you store a
memory and how do you retrieve a memory
and they're thinking about it the way a
computer does but of course that's not
any that's nothing the way that that we
store memories um it's what's special
about about our brain is that it takes
in lots of information and then there's
lots of stuff happening under the hood
where we're bending and breaking and
blending the information that we've
taken in and we're using that to
constantly generate new things and so
this would make a terrible computer in
the sense that you know when I put
something in my computer I want exactly
those zeros and ones back out and that's
not what the human brain is doing so
this is actually my next book it's
called The Runaway species about how we
manipulate our own memories exactly
right it's about this about this
question of what is what is unique about
the human species in that um like you
know why have we taken over the world
why haven't squirrels launched ships to
the moon or camels invented the Internet
or things like that and this has a
little bit to do with with the fact that
we have opposable thumbs laryn and blah
blah but that's not the important part
the important part is the algorithms
that were running under the hood which
are just slightly different I mean
they're not much different than the rest
of the animal kingdom but they're just
different enough that as a species we've
now taken over every Niche on the planet
and we've moved to the moon and we're
about to move to Mars and like we've
really rocked this place and and the
question is given that our brains are so
s Is Amazing by way given that our
brains are so similar to to all our
nearest Neighbors in the animal kingdom
the question is why what is going on
differently and and and so I'll tell you
what I think it is so first of all we
have more of uh we have more of a part
of the brain called the prefrontal
cortex we just have more of that than
our nearest neighbors and that allows us
to to come up with possibilities to
simulate wh ifs to generate possible
Futures and evaluate them and so between
that and the fact that our memories are
constantly you know trying things out
and and they're imperfect in a very
interesting and useful way um that
allows us to say well wait what if I did
put that in that what would that be like
oh what if I did this and what if I said
this to this person what if I and what
happens is the whole civilization
ratchets up such
that you know when you go to you know
bonobo chimps in the middle of the
forest and you look at what they're
doing and then you come to a city you
come to LA or San Francisco or something
and you look at what's going on it's a
completely different ball game what
we're up to and it's because of this
thing of saying well would this work
would this work and most of our ideas
suck and occasionally one sticks and it
and it ratchets things forward a little
bit as a
civilization so what is that you said
our memories are imperfect in kind of a
weird and wonderful way what is that
imperfect in the sense that they're not
at all like a digital computer they're
just they're they're
constantly manipulating the inputs and
so and this by the way goes back to the
question you asked about you know what
is what are the things to do to to keep
an active brain and so on it's getting
more inputs it's it's because every new
thing every new idea every new situation
that you see goes into that pot and can
be stirred up and you say oh that new
thing I saw that's kind of like this
thing and if I put that together with
that thing here's this new idea here's
this new thing I can didn't you say once
the brain is built on Association yeah
that's right so yeah how how's that
useful the um um so just to explain it
the the idea is that instead of things
being stored like in a computer instead
I associate everything with other things
that I I've input uh or learned before
so for example when I smell coffee that
REM that triggers the association of
what coffee will feel like on my hands
and the name of the Barista at Starbucks
and the sound of a grinder and what
it'll make me feel like all these things
are in this big network of Association
that's how that's the secret of how the
brain is storing everything I think it's
that everything sits in this giant
Network and and that's what allows us to
manipulate ideas and think about okay
well wait I know this is associated with
it and that's with that so how do I put
these all together to build something
and now let's get to the the nice sticky
one uh free will yeah so in one of the
episodes of the brain on PBS such a cool
one I know this one really got my wife's
attention where you show the puppets
playing and one puppet's like trying to
open the box and the other puppet's like
trying to help it and then there's a
third puppet and he comes and like
crushes the box down and keep and like
is mean to the other puppet then you
give kids babies young babies the
opportunity to play with either the nice
puppet or the mean puppet and they
choose they choose the nice puppet this
was an experiment done by Paul Bloom at
Yale and then I recreated this
experiment for the show and um yeah what
this demonstrates is that we come to the
table with a lot of intuitions and
instincts about things including because
we're extremely social animals we uh are
very good at judging right away whether
for example this person is helpful or
that person is mean and and we associate
ourselves with the helpful people um
instead of the bullies you know there's
there was this debate for many decades
about nature versus nurture but the
answer that question is dead because
it's not either of those it's it's both
of those together yeah for sure so
really fast bring it back to some one of
the stories that was my favorite was
there's heaven and there's hell and they
in heaven they use the same information
to reward and excite that hell uses to
punish and condemn which is the the
knowledge that Free Will is non-existent
walk people through like how how was
that great for some people and so
heartbreaking for
others um well it's just a matter of
whether you believe in whether you feel
like it's it's too
strange to to imagine that we are these
giant vast creatures I mean think of the
fact you're made up of 30 tril trillion
cells and you're this huge giant
creature that's driven around by this
three-b Mission Control Center that's
sort of controlling all this and through
these cables that come out you know
moves it all around and so on it's very
weird to think about maybe that's it
about what's going on just like just
like you said you were freaked out when
I mentioned the thing about Vision
before um it's really freaky to think
about not having any free will and that
fundamentally were these very complex
robots it's interesting for me free will
um because I feel like I'm in control
control it doesn't seem to matter right
so where it might get weird is if you
actually could break down like exactly
what algorithm is firing that but then
even then so let's pretend you can
identify the algorithm here's the
algorithm makes you feel that way or do
this thing and then here's the algorithm
that makes you Tom not care that would
get a little weird but then it's so like
recursive back to well there's you know
something that's feeding into how I feel
about that exact so since I feel like
I'm in
control it doesn't really change yeah
and this by the way is related to to
that same story from some where it's
this issue of if I were to get out a
whiteboard we can't do this yet in
Neuroscience but imagine that I were to
say like here's exactly why strawberry
ice cream tastes the way it does to you
and why it's so delicious to you and
blah blah blah I could explain that and
show the pathways and the genes what and
it wouldn't affect your enjoyment of it
at all it wouldn't change anything about
your experience of it and so there's
this funny disconnect between what we're
able to do in science and what it is
like to be a human and and there's this
Gap there in in the explanatory
framework um so what would you consider
success for you at the end of your
career I tell you what um is really on
my mind now so I mentioned about
neosensory in this vest um what I'm
really interested in is this question of
can we create new senses for humans so
so as a question think about this
question of why does vision feels so
different than hearing which feels so
different than touch which feels so
different than smell and taste given
that it's all the same stuff on the
inside if I were to stick an electrode
into your brain somewhere and listen to
a neuron
going I I wouldn't be able to tell you
whether it's a visual neuron or an
auditory neuron or a somata sensory
neuron like
it's all the same stuff going on in
there so the question is how the heck
does your qualia a vision feel such that
you would you would never confuse it
with a sound if I did a sound you
wouldn't think oh yeah that looks like a
something so so I have a hypothesis on
this it's just a hypothesis at the stage
but I think it has to do with the
structure of the data coming in so your
eyes are two two-dimensional sheets um
Vis uh audition is a one-dimensional
signal hitting your eard drums touch is
um a high multi-dimensional signal of
stuff um you've got all this very
different structure of these different
Pathways and I think that's what makes
things feel different I think that
somehow the feeling of vision or the
feeling of hearing or touch or smell
these have to do with what's with the
data that's coming in so if I now feed
something completely different in
through the vest the question is are you
going to have a completely new
experience it's not vision it's not
touch it's not hearing it's not smell
it's this it's this other thing that's
like that but but you can't put it in
those other terms and I suspect that
this is where things are going anyway
this is the thing that's really
interesting to me is can we create
completely new senses for humans by
feeding in new structures of data that's
intriguing I can't wait to see the
results of that do you think that your
research and your deep interest in
science in the brain is affecting the
way that you raise your kids you know I
thought it would uh my wife's also a
neuroscientist um talk about doubling
down I know we totally thought that it
was going to but what's interesting is
that as a parent you know you're just
trying to get through every day you know
love your kids and have them love you
and so um yeah it's funny we we had
originally thought about doing some cool
experiments but
we oh trying to I so wish you had the
thing about smart kids is that they are
pushing on their boundaries St straight
away they're trying to figure out their
own world and and what they can do to to
separate themselves from their parents
and and go out and experience the world
and that's why that's why it's tough
because I know my older boy if I told
him do X he's going to definitely do y
so um yeah but with what you know about
priming don't you think there's things
you could do to make him want to do it
yeah the key with being a parent
actually is loving something in your
child's presence so if I show that I
love chess then you know eventually
he'll come over and see that wow all
right so real fast we're running out of
time but I couldn't not ask um walk us
through what you think the brain is
telling us needs to change about the
legal system yeah this is this is an
area where I devoted about a quarter of
my time uh it's called neurolaw it's
about understanding the variety in
people's brains and what you know how
brains are really different and what we
do as a legal system is we sort of
imagine that all brains are equal and so
when you know people come up in front of
the judge's bench and they've committed
crime X then they get sentence Y and um
you know that seems to be uh something
that people like in terms of fairness
but in fact it's not all that useful for
running a legal system and what we have
in America is the highest incarceration
rate in the world of any country we put
more of our population in jail than
anybody so my goal is to build a forward
looking legal system instead of
backwards looking that says you
committed this crime this is your
punishment forward looking that says
okay look you know this person's got
schizophrenia this person uh is uh has
this sociopathy this person is tweaked
down on drugs and so on and so on so on
and here's the way that we can root
people through the system that's
maximally effective for for getting done
what we you know for helping Society
this doesn't let anybody off the hook
it's not like we say oh you you know
it's not your fault that you did this
and it's not even about that it's just
saying here's the things that we know in
Neuroscience just as an example I
recently wrote wrote a paper on all of
the rehabilitation methods for drug use
that we have and that we're developing
as a field um there's so much that the
legal system could do in that space
rather than just say oh you were caught
with 2 ounces of marijuana we're going
to incarcerate you um so this what would
you say is the goal of your system you
said it's most effective what is
effective defined as the most effective
thing is instead of treating jail as a
one- siiz fits-all solution we actually
attend to what would be best for people
who commit crimes so that they can they
can become part of society again um and
again this doesn't mean that you know
we're exculpating anybody but it does
mean if you take somebody with
schizophrenia and you lock them up for
10 years that's not actually helping
anything you don't you don't cure
schizophrenia that way by breaking rocks
in the sun all summer so um the um yeah
this is this is seeking to understand
the differences in people's brains and
and how we can can help people wow all
right so I have one final question but
first where can these guys find you
online uh Eagle man.com is my main
website and for neuroscience and law
it's sa law.org how do you spell that uh
SCI like science and law got it very
cool all right last question what is the
impact that you want to have on the
world there are some big picture things
I could say but I'm actually going to be
in this narrow space for the moment
about figuring out whether we can build
new senses for humans just because I
think that's going to be the thing that
opens up so much not only in terms of
our ability to experience the world to
get out of the narrow