Kind: captions
Language: en
everybody welcome to impact Theory you
were here my friends because you believe
that human potential is nearly limitless
but you know that having potential is
not the same as actually doing something
with it so our goal with this show and
company is to introduce you to the
people and ideas that are going to help
you actually execute on your dreams all
right today's guest is not only a double
board certified doctor he plays one on
TV and over an insanely long and
illustrious career he's become one of
the most recognizable names in medicine
as a whole and arguably the most
recognizable name in the treatment of
addiction the marriage of his medical
and media careers began in the 80s when
he realized someone needed to be talking
about sex especially to young people
during the height of the AIDS epidemic
viewing himself as a civil servant using
media to reach a broad audience he
served as the host of love line for over
30 years including a four-year run on
MTV with co-host Adam Carolla touching
millions of lives in the process
and that is just the tip of a very large
iceberg his positive effect on people is
so far-reaching that the inner main-belt
asteroid number 4 or 5 3 6 is named
after him I'm not kidding this
self-identified recovering workaholic
has hosted countless TV shows and
podcasts including everything from rehab
and Celebrity Rehab to this life the
atom and dr. drew show dr. drew on call
and about a dozen other shows in between
what continues to make him the go-to guy
for nationally syndicated advice is his
deep desire to help people and the fact
that he's kept his skills razor sharp by
maintaining a thriving medical practice
he's been called the dr. Ruth for Gen X
but given his continued relevance I
think it's fair to say that he's the
soothing voice of reason and sexual and
medical advice for Millennials and Gen Z
as well so please help me in welcoming
the man who debated whether he should
become a doctor or an opera singer the
New York Times bestselling author of the
mirror effect and cracked putting broken
lives back together again dr. Drew
Pinsky
[Music]
they're coming because I even intro of
course what jumps out of the insanely
long careers happen I wondered how you
ever take that that's alright so you
look the same no for literally your
entire careers god bless you a real did
you gray early like yes a secret yes I
we have triplets I think in bed a couple
of when your how I didn't meet them but
I've heard about yeah and that first
year well your hair tall oh no it's
funny but it is it and and the
workaholism between the do workaholism
and the triplets that pretty much died
had that didn't you said you were
getting up at 5:00 a.m. and now I'm
struggling to get home at 10:00 p.m.
p.m. you ever years years and and after
years and years and years of doing that
I experienced dread that my work and I
thought oh this event ahead and this
long story there I mean the you know
love line went to five nights a week and
then I had to change my schedule and
that actually was good for me except I
was still out to midnight because of
that so it's it's I wondered about that
when I was watching the show or
listening to the show because I so I
moved to LA as a transplant when I was
18 discovered k-rock immediately because
I was my kind of music found love line
and I thought how do they record this
live and this guy runs a practice yeah I
was crazy just don't sleep it's
basically to that and in going out late
at night you know my kids were in bed
the the beeper sort of settled down
deeper in those days and the pager
settled down and I could just do it what
pushed you enough to want to do that
enough and insane amount of work he to
be a workaholic or to do love light
every night because love like was love a
sort of outlet it was like creative kind
of different fun thing I could do right
could make a difference without some of
the same sweat and liability and misery
of running a medical practice I mean the
medicine is not fun today
I've been thinking a lot about that
lately how how remember my peers you
still my older peers that guy's my age
when I was you know at the age we're
talking about which like 20-30 years ago
there was a hot not fun anymore it's not
fun anymore now it can be miserable just
trying to help people so I guess you
have to see so many people or because
the
so much paperwork there's so much you're
so much liability there's so little
reimbursement there's so much nonsense
you have to go through so much other
than just what you want to do is take
care of the patient right so much other
so heal is something I got put on my
radar I know that you're involved with
those guys how on earth are they making
that work like financially it's like 90
bucks all-in or something ninety-nine
dollars all and you have a doctor you if
you if you call some doctor right now
they would be here within two hours
means we carefully select each of these
people they're all board certified in
family practice or pediatrics or
medicine and you don't understand how
little doctors make in primary care it
cost about $150 an hour to run a
practice you get thirty-eight dollars
from Medicare for every 15 minutes well
that's what that's how you so if you can
go and get a hundred dollars for 30
minutes in someone's home and give 20%
to the heal and you get the rest that's
um that's a deal
Wow you have no infrastructure you have
just your malpractice and that's a big
deal for doctors most doctors the one
you see every day are struggling to make
a living
Wow well that's bad no then it's bad or
not whatever is it is it certainly keeps
us all in it for the right reason right
which is to help people so all right so
talk to me about that the concept of
living a good life you said that yeah
one I'm oddly fascinated by how into
philosophy you are so feel free to go
deep on that here you're one of the few
people that I research that are quoting
Aristotle and you know talking about all
this stuff yeah one what made you start
thinking about that and what I I'm not
sure about getting articulated in a way
that's cohesive except to say that I see
there's limits to meaning meaning making
and when you're trying to help people in
a medical context at a certain point you
have to get philosophical like why are
we doing this and what's our goal in
doing this and what's our purpose in
doing this I mean inevitably that comes
up for instance uh you know when you're
dealing with the end-of-life I mean what
what you know what what are their goals
we'll make life as long as possible or
to give these people a good life I made
it particularly working with drug
addicts you get very philosophical very
fast because you've got to start asking
yourself what what are you doing here
what why we doing this but we have now
begun to think about different kinds of
happiness right there's there's pleasure
which is that things go it's a pretty
good pretty good deal you certainly
can't have a flourishing life if you're
in misery or you're in hunger or you're
sick and you have to have a certain
amount of well-being in order to live a
flourishing life and so we now
distinguish between pleasure which is
all my paradise get tons of pleasure
they certainly aren't living a
flourishing existence right that's sort
of how I start of thinking about this
I'm like Jesus Christ my heroin tanks
were there a happy when they get that
first hit that's happy no that's
pleasure your demonic happiness turns
out is much better for our body than our
immune system it's a certain kind of
flourishing happiness you know you can
conceive of it it's as a nurturing state
or as a well being stayed or as a state
of satisfaction but when you look at
humans in that state there's certain
sort of requisites you have to have in
order to achieve that right Aristotle
had kind of two versions of what a
eudaimonic happiness was one was a
contemplative life which I actually
don't think was his main point because
main point was that real happiness and
this is all the literature confirms its
might certainly my clinical experience
bears this out is about purpose leading
a good life seeing a certain kind of
light engage life leading in though in
the world right and how I got the
philosophy when you start talking about
in the world that's a philosopher called
Heidegger who starts talking about this
what is being and being in the world and
you can go down a huge rabbit hole but
let's say with the would say with
happiness so in order to be able to
meaningfully give back to the point
where it really feels good really
satisfying Aircel said yeah I'd have a
couple things you had to have amongst
other things you had to have a certain
amount of technical skill and called
that technique and have a certain amount
of experiential learning they call that
wisdom he called that phronesis and in
my humble opinion those two things have
been completely left out of teaching
people what it is to have a good life
there there's a lot of hey man just give
back your back and back and I have lots
of friends that have done lots of cool
things and are still like Nazi
and the reason I'm not feeling it they
didn't go back and do the hard work of
developing an individual skill that can
allow them to change the trajectory of
another human's life it's the the
interpersonal piece of one-to-one brain
to brain transmission that really
results in magic in my humble opinion
that's it's it's humans and humans
together and then dust as a large
consciousness whatever that is that that
really I think is what gives like
purpose and gives you that satisfaction
that I would call you demonic happiness
you're on one of the most important
things I think in the world for people
out there right now to understand how to
cultivate this how to cultivate
happiness what happiness means to your
point I think the people are hopelessly
vague they want to change the world they
want to have impact but they never it's
all good right all good but we but you
got to really dig in to define your
terms you know what is happiness and
then what is making every but do you
really want to do how do we as
individuals figure out that mind-body
connection so that's my other big thing
I'm sighing because it's such a gigantic
topic and there's so many ways into it
let me just say that that that that I am
II I'm increasingly thinking that the
brain is less the seed of emotion as
much as it is a region of the of the
central nervous system that accesses and
expresses emotion or regulates emotion
this is really interesting I so I'm
obsessed of the brain and you're the
first person I've heard say like the
people are over looking at the brain I'm
very deep into believing I mean when it
comes to person-to-person connection and
I'm way in the brain and particular to
the right brain right side of the brain
and holistic kinds of by holistic I mean
integrative holistic experiences of the
self another and we can talk about that
but but the brain is embedded brain is
embedded in a body and the body is
embedded in a interpersonal context in a
social context in a cultural context and
there's social historical context the
embeddedness of that brain is what's
missing the amount
unless yeah the embeddedness is what's
so interesting because that's why I'm
fascinated by person-to-person stuff
because brains heal and change other
brains but nominally but I'm
increasingly convinced that a large part
of that is is body to body transmission
of some sort of attunement that goes on
between and amongst humans I mean it's
it's something that I'm certain came out
of the environment of evolutionary
adaptiveness and would probably our
hunting or our before we had language
our ability to sort of move as a group
and you know forms cohesive units that
could survive that's still in US and
there's a guy named Stephen Porges who I
might want to every someday is a great
guy and he he has really located a lot
of this connection in the vagus nerve
and when I was in medical school we just
learned the vagus nerve excitement
slowed the heart down and then that's it
and maybe messed with the stomach acid
secretion a little bit and that's it
turns out 70 80 percent of the vagus
nerve is afrin meaning coming up out of
the body and oh by the way we have these
three giant knots of nerves of the
parasitic nervous system they're almost
like peripheral brains in our pelvis our
abdomen in our in our chest that that
nerve is bringing tons of information
back and also sending information back
down on my elated and unmyelinated early
developing late developing and it turns
out just like we have a homunculus for
our motor and sensory system and the
cortex you have a little homunculus in
the brainstem that's the nucleus that
receives all the afferent information
from the vagus nerve but how much I mean
a sort of a map of the body that's the
body's autonomic or sort of visceral
kinds of experiences and I think that
maybe the seed of emotion myself in the
brainstem in the brainstem because then
we'd only know what the hell the
periaqueductal gray matter does but
didn't ever just heard those words put
together oh no that's a very desperate
brain that's where Mane is modulated but
but right near the periaqueductal gray
at the level the pons is this nucleus
tractus solitarius which takes this all
this visceral information and sends it
to the amygdala and the insular cortex
and I'm fighting a lot in people with
trauma and over something going wrong I
don't want to use when you use absolute
terms of the brain it's never the right
term but there's something blind ins
with cortex and patients that have been
traumatized they don't regulate their
bodily basics fear
variances coming out of their body and
they're all felt as painful misery to
the effect of charge of everything is
overwhelming and guess how you change
that other bodies in proximity it talked
to me about that the one of the notes
that I took researching you was every it
was like everything is about the other I
mean it was it was a very big statement
about how much other people impact you
yeah so is that something you've learned
through the addiction being the object
as a patient I did therapy for many many
many years and through working with
patients but then it also you know I've
done lots lots of reading about about
you know ideas about these things and
you got to think about it this way where
does your self emerge how do you how do
you as a self develop how does that
happen
you really want me to answer yeah so
meant from its inception yeah how does
it have I'm gonna give you a really bad
answer and this is why I love doing the
show because you you've planted a seed
now that is I think going to
fundamentally shift the way that I think
about this prior to researching you
here's how I thought about it certainly
the genetics plays a role certainly
early environment plays a huge role
attachment style of their okay so so
what about that early environment what
what what we're I'm a jump to the chase
this is the first thing we know for sure
the first thing the child is able to do
is focus a guy's turn aliy and it tends
to be focused on partially contingent
phenomenology so things like pushing a
mobile pulling the cat's tail but we are
giant areas are a brain dedicated to the
face right the fusiform gyrus we look at
faces we do we can analyze micro
movements of our of our muscular in our
face and we that happens early so with
the first thing we're doing is mother
comes into focus and it's in the
relationship with mom and dad that the
cells experiences of the self emerge its
first other that's the first thing and
then these spontaneous whatever we're
having these bodily based spontaneous
experiences we call emotion to kind of
wash over us when we're little mom is
focusing on us and what the research
shows
Lexx on her face through Micra movements
of her face and appreciation of our
bodily based experiences and we learn
that that's our experience yes that's me
I'm seeing it reflected on your face and
not only that mom offers soothing
effects alongside of those identified
second-order representations she allows
attunes to us and gives us the
interpersonal capacity for regulation
right so as feelings anymore baby just
wash over us it's that attunement of the
other body I mean literally the hippest
of the pupils of mom and child start
start moving together
it's crazy Larry hippos and our heart
rates go the same our blood pressures to
team up I mean that's that's just what
happens how does not blood pressure like
I can sort of get a heartbeat if it's
like there's something really happening
yeah but blood pressure I mean that
friction of it's essentially I don't
know that that's I can tell you for
certain but there's exact blood pressure
because you know adults and children are
very very different but but it's to say
that the physiologic turtle
physiological milieu of matches that's
so weird I was lemon getting their
periods and thinking I mean it's so
weird weird that's not this part of our
nervous system it's this part right and
we ignored it we largely ignoring now
you asked me how do you get the
mind-body connection yeah and before you
answer that is this part of why you
started working out I've always found it
fascinating well you know I think I have
a soul but just more fear in that kind
of death okay well that's honor usual
reasons and and I and now it's become my
meditation now I can't I get
uncomfortable when I don't do it I
literally lectures and I listen to
programs like this and and and now I'm
fighting the clock I'm fighting aging to
in them so I'm happy that I have that
compulsion so going back to your
question about how the self emerges is
maybe less interesting to me then how do
you take control of the self as an adult
who's self-aware that has things like
mindfulness and mind-body connection and
all that to be able to sculpt and change
your vision of yourself which then I
believe what now I'll talk about that in
in terms of identity and then how
identity drives behavior and my whole
thing too because if you want to change
your behavior change your identity
okay I believe as an adult you can do
screw that so that's like the angle that
I'm coming at this from like how do we
how do we begin to construct our sense
of self in a directed meaningful way
through things like the mind-body
connection yeah a couple things occurred
to me one is you know we have a sort of
a saying in recovery it's you know lead
a certain kind of life mmm just may
start being rigorously honest start
being helpful start to give things you
know contrary you know whatever your
ideas do the contrary these sort of
things and guess what when you start
behaving a certain way you'll start
feeling a different way and start
thinking of yourself in a different way
and to start internalizing some of these
things so one of the things is behavior
right start start really looking at your
behavior and start you can make choices
about your behavior that's hard you know
that's the other thing that people don't
understand change is really hard change
is like oh yeah I just get inspired and
changed oh no no I mean they're fields
of study looking at change I changed as
a you know pre contemplative
contemplative execution and maintenance
the maintenance of changes but most
people leave out and most people are not
able to maintain change even even
something simple like stockist
cigarettes the exercise more indeed you
get your dad to take these pills every
day I can't get somebody to take pills
every day if you read the book change or
die I've never the book but I will I
will tell you that I've gotten
fascinated there are moments of change
people that really change usually have a
moment they can tell you the moment a
change sometimes it feels like that's
where it's sort of a spiritual peace
fits into this people feel like
something stepped in from the outside
and made them change or open them to the
possibility of change I've looked at
this a little bit and what I have found
is in every case I've looked at I find
these people and I obviously have seen a
lot of addicts that first of all they
feel are going to die they believe
they're going to die they're like okay
what do I need to do is that pretty
universal drug addicts for sure
I can't universalize up a drug addicts
for sure when they when they really
sometimes they have near-death
experiences that don't believe they're
going to die right when they believe
they're going to die they change but
that doesn't interesting that that's an
easy one the one that interests me is
the following when people all of a
sudden go oh my god and they change what
I found with those people is they
usually were hanging
with somebody having an intimate sort of
conversation and time with somebody was
sort of different than what they would
normally hang with and so from my
perspective it's literally they're
they're using the other to see
themselves through a new pair of glasses
like they're experiencing themselves
different because normally we are
attracted to people that sort of fit our
models of what we like and what our
attachments work and whatever our
traumatic reenactments are we we just we
just go for that so we do as humans it
not enough is made of how [ __ ] up
attractions are some attractions
attraction we're attracted to usually
comes from often comes from a
not-so-great place in our childhood I
definitely want to talk about that but
okay these people I found were usually
sort of hanging out with somebody and
spending time in Simon time and all of a
sudden they actually didn't make the
connection with the hanging out with the
different I'd started asking them about
it I usually would find that there but
all of a sudden they would see
themselves all of a sudden like one
woman was hugely obese and she was
walking by so she told me the exact
window she was walking by I think
impassive eating at a Macy's and there
was a mirror and she walked by and she
said oh I saw myself oh my god
I'm disgusting I got a change huh
disgust is the motivator I have another
patient who was she was a nurse she was
in denial I've been trying for years to
get her sober and she was in an IVs and
in hospitals and getting surgery
anything get to opiates right and she
said one day she'd walk into the
hospital bathroom with her IV and looked
in the mirror and saw herself Dookie in
that moment so I could broke through all
the dials in it but the commuters
evidence by saying it's the other but
that's two sorts of people seeing in the
mirror what is it about that eight foot
day fishing no no they were able to see
themselves differently because they had
been hanging out with I identify say
they were seeing themselves so what was
in those relationships do you think that
it's a different Fitness a different a
new pair of glasses and when I think of
it like somebody done Newton a novel
perception of who they were not the
usual patterns that they engaged so let
me say this another way just make sure I
understand so hanging out with somebody
new is literally you're sinking up in a
way that's now called on me to write to
yourself differently recurrence yourself
differently and then we know that
happens that's what their appease era P
is taking you into a new relation
ship a new kind of relationship and each
little step in that therapy you
experience yourself sort of differently
in that context you bind to the notion
that you're the average of the five
people you spend the most time with I
don't know I would more argue that you
would choose to spend time around those
five people because of some pre-existing
pattern we have maps in our brain we
have maps and patterns and things that
we we tend to go free tend to reenact I
so talk about that with the attraction
way and so again I get to see extreme
examples of that but many of these
people when they when they see
themselves as they are they feel disgust
and disgust a powerful motivator disgust
is something that sustains that then
they change they lose the weight they do
if you ever notice when you're in a diet
if I get disgusted with yourself you're
like oh so I can diet can we can we must
burn the comments down and talk about
self-loathing for a second well
self-loathing is different then disgust
I think it's different really you're so
good at defining terms like I'm scared
to challenge you but like tell me
something is closer to hate right and
disgusted and disgust is a very
primitive as well yeah y'all keep
feeling okay it doesn't motivate the way
just you don't think well it doesn't
hate hate gets again I'm following my
thinking here and hate gets connected to
shame I'm bad okay and shame is a is a
deflating emotion to take you down it's
not it's not a just I'm gonna die and
I'm disgusting it's like I [ __ ] got a
changed as I got this but I'm bad why
would you change I'm already bad I'm
shameful I want to be not seen you want
to shrink your shame interesting I guess
because I don't think of I think of
humans is so malleable and that your
past is not necessary to defining who
you can become
that now admittedly that sort of my own
belief system so but I get what you're
saying now about disgust and that is
incredibly well and when you said by the
way that the woman walked by the mirror
and and said I'm disgusting I like
literally internally cringe I was like
oh my god I can't believe you're not
like caveat in that story like no it's
okay to be overweight like no no she was
she I got to do something I'm changing
you talked about addiction and said you
know one of the number one questions I
get asked is if there's a genetic
component to this then there must be
some conferred advantage oh your
explanation of that was so breathtaking
right it had to be right I mean this
this is a gene that's in
in the genome through essentially
throughout human history right so
there's got to be some adaptive
advantage to it and when you look at
people with addictions why I have zero
moral feelings about addiction addiction
makes people do some morally
reprehensible things but the the use of
the substance and the disease is not
moral
in fact these people are extraordinary
they make great fighter pilots they made
great extreme athletes they make great
shortstops they are they're phenomenal
survivors in extreme adversity so
doesn't it make sense that in isolated
populations that are that are distressed
like there's assaulted for multiple
generations that will be the population
that survives well that's what we find
if you look on the globe where there's a
highest sort of concentration of
alcoholism it's the most intense
genetically Scotland Ireland North
American Indian isolated population
military genocidal assaults typically
survivors alcoholics that is fascinating
is there a similar evolutionary glimpse
into why we try to recreate or why we do
recreate interactions to the max yeah I
I think it might have some sort of I've
been thinking all about this I think it
has some sort of offload memory function
in other words like why do peers of
Jewish heritage practice Passover every
year why do they do that
I believe that ritual is an offloaded
traumatic memory so they do the like if
we were going to remember the the blood
of the Lamb and the Passover and also no
way you remember the generation of
generation you begin it would get
telephoned into god-knows-what right it
would turn into some myths and some
thing about a dragon oh but when we do
the same behavior every year and we eat
the same things the way they did they
went through this we're experiencing the
same thing every year we do it as a
ritual that's an offload of traumatic
memory and and I think repetition
compulsion is a similar thing
so some but you would think it's kind of
gone bad in some way in other words
we're repeating a trauma that we should
be avoiding and somehow it sits and
maybe maybe the people that are
repeating traumatic experiences or sort
of the canary in the coalmine everybody
else
possibly I think we're altima going to
find is it's whatever that mechanism is
is probably the same mechanism that
allows for intense deep emotional
attachments in a healthy way
that just gets sick just goes off so
here's one thing that I found
interesting about people who are highly
dramatic yeah I get enough glimpse of it
in myself to sort of know what that
looks like we're merely having a strong
emotion in any direction there's a
intoxication of that there's a sense of
get high yeah you're heightened like
you're alive so even though it's bad
it's at least elevated yes that's a
complex landscape some people do get
high from it my addicts get high from
drama for sure and they're really
recovery they're the most dramatic
people on earth they are dramatic as
hell and they love creating drama and
conflict they get off on to get high on
it I've been thinking a lot now but
exactly what you're asking about the
evolution of the self how do we take
control of the south and right and you
know the the human gathering thing I did
that you mean Razak West Chapman has
this little theory that I really got
under my skin that that we that there's
so much victim in our culture that if we
could flip it into a hero archetype
right we would help people mobilize
exactly what you're talking about and
there's something about that there's
something happening I almost believe
that I was never Jungian I never found
it a use for that but all of a sudden I
started thinking you know this country
had sort of a hero archetype until the
60s and it became the antihero and the
anti-social right and we're still in
that kind of mode and it's resulted in a
bunch of victims and we need to mobilize
hero magician or something something a
little more substantial in people again
as our sort of myth we need myth because
myth attack attaches us back to the
bodily based holistic experience that
our rational brain just the way mom I
think about this Lewis Lee mom can
reflect back with her face emotional
experiences that defy words it's a much
more it's communicating to a different
part of the brain I'm a feeling myth
communicates a holistic social sort of
connectedness that we can't get any
other way that that fit your insanity my
friend do you know why we founded impact
no no tell me literally because of that
so I read the book the power of myth by
Joseph Campbell and he talked about how
hey you want to know what happens to a
society when they no longer believe in
the mythology because for millennia you
told these stories rites of passage all
of that and you actually believed that
they were real yeah so now what happens
when ritual is robbed of its power
mythology is a story it's just
entertainment it doesn't connote
anything anymore they supposed to take
into your life to connect bodily which
I've never thought of it that way but
for me it's about the creation of
identity literally I promise you I did
not set this up that's not why he came
on the show I had no idea that you
thought no I well it's what I find
fascinating we're all going to that same
place we're all trying to help people
and we're all going something missing
here did you see me show cure me - pure
rationality is great but pure
rationality would absent everything else
not good this is this so I believe as an
entrepreneur you have to ask a question
no [ __ ] what would it take okay so
when we a rational question right so
when we started quest was no [ __ ]
what would it take to help people be
happy
get out of my questions you did when
they have a negative self body image
right so the woman walks by the mirror
and she feels disgusting how do you help
her with that because she actually turns
back to ice cream most of the time yes
because for a moment it cheers up it's
like a drug and she just gets in a
really bad cycle so yeah differently
which looks about usually it feels bad
if I don't feel bad I feel disgust right
and I got to get away from it you have
to discuss something you have to get
away from you have to move away from
disgust now imagine we go to quest right
that was certainly the hope imagine that
a drug addict hey the cure for your
addiction is to do heroin all the things
about it and finally you're thriving at
the end of it that was literally the
idea behind Quest people could choose
food that they or they were choosing -
based on taste yeah but we had done the
hard work of making it good for you yeah
so with impact theory I already know so
because my whole thing is leverage
behavior don't try to change it I
already know people are going to read
books read comic books watch movies
watch TV shows and play video games I
know that yeah I also know that the way
the humans assimilate truly disruptive
information is through narrative
mythology passing my side I agree with
you I would not have agreed with you six
months ago that's what I agree you had
said something to me when I was at on
your show where you said I'm actually
working on scripted stuff that's why yes
it has ended up why it wasn't why I
started I just sort of fascinated
management I wanted I always like to try
new and different things and then once I
got injured I'm like holy [ __ ] this is
where I need to be I need to cultivate
this yeah this is what gets through to
people that's amazing yeah amazing
yeah and that Wow but I but I don't feel
and if you feel like you're there with
it I'm not there with it yet with the
concept or the ability to execute the
there of it because I believe like with
everything holistic its co-created I
think we all create datas you know here
we are co-creating this that you're
right you're you're you're pushing me
forward and new in different ways you're
changing my brain as you say these
things right I think I think it's we got
to like get a little army together and
that army is going to create something
new and different in its own myth or
whatever totally and I know I want to be
humbled in awe of it and you know that
that's where I need to be I why should I
create them you know the I don't want to
be that I want it to be something that
speaks to the circumstance the history
of the time you ready I can tell you how
to do it please is literally what we're
doing okay so were lit a.m. the
following facts make me question whether
or not we're actually living in the
matrix which I don't believe by the way
but every now and then so many things
line up that it just it's too perfect
the sort of Goldilocks moments like this
wherever I know right exactly
well I just think I just think we're all
in this together we're more connected
than we know more connected than we know
technology is moving in a direction
where we can connect more I think you
have ambivalent feelings about social
media i I don't yes I don't think it's
purely bad right I think it needs to be
dealt with with care and it does get in
the way of some of the stuff I've been
talking about it can do some yeah it can
it can't replace it but it can add to it
yes yeah perfect
yeah totally agree with that so the way
I think the modern myths are going to be
created one we have to accept that
people know that they're stories but if
they're stories that we reach out so
build an army of people around ideology
that's why I do the show it gives me a
chance to bring on people who I think
think in phenomenal ways they can watch
me changing in real time they can hear
my worldview and what it's built around
and all that and watch it change but
ultimately it's around empowerment
whether that's freeing yourself from
past
as whether that's just understanding
neuroplasticity and myelination and all
of that like holding it all together
okay and then going out to them and
saying hey within this universe that we
have created your community submit ideas
around these things so here are stories
that we're trying to tell but we want
you to bring us the the specific
storylines the mythology around that if
you will and that way then you have the
crowd say these are the ones that we
care about because I'm never going to
guess accurately no no not only that but
I feel like my mythological landscape
whatever we ultimately decide what that
is is a little impoverished and I like
it to be nourishing and that's going to
come from others others others I want to
give so let's talk more about the others
your concept of being embedded that like
you want to talk about changing my brain
in real-time
that is one of those immediately true
lightning rod moments how do we leverage
other people to make change in our own
life consciously so I'll give you an
idea I'm now going to stock the [ __ ] out
of you I'm going to spend more time with
you it is just the way as it has to be
because of the way that you think and I
just want to be able down that's that's
the way you do it I think that's the way
is one brain at a time or that's one way
of doing it right
I think information media I think meat
is tremendously impactful it's why I do
it I think this is this is part of the
deal here
I'm just deeply fascinated by the human
experience talk to me about that define
the human experience what do you mean by
that
anything to do with the human whether
it's how your how your intestine
functions or how the founding fathers
wrote the Constitution okay those are
all fascist span all fascinate why I
don't know I love people I guess I
didn't love them that's interesting uh
walk me through that because always in
geology I've no interest in some
interest in trees because it informs
about us it's not enough Steven than
being fascinated is yeah it's not a
narcissism it's literally a oh oh it's I
don't know it's I it's about you were
you always that way I suspect but I
would not know I would not have
identified some of my medical training
got me all the way in yeah so okay walk
us through that because this is still
astonishing and okay I'm just gonna ask
would you sing for us like even just
like a couple notes I literally I can't
an opera singer at first time you met it
I was like use exposing what massively
bundler lot for me Taj of it or teaspoon
gel for Dimona
at 20 months on EE or that is incredible
thank you for that and I debated whether
to actually ask you to do that or not
and please like only I guess I give that
like the only I can sing without a piano
pretty because there's in the operating
sort of just I think it's Iago if I
remember right so talk about that is
crazy
so you you have this moment where you're
debating whether to go into medicine
like you dad and sort of assumed that
that's what you do but yeah um like how
do you find your path through that how
did you do it wasn't easy because you
know the the tasks were so humongous and
the expectations of me were high instead
task of becoming a doctor and it looked
too much for me I just mean part of it
was I'll tell you what in retrospect a
big part of it was just the male brain I
swear to Christ I was just not ready to
do it I was so my first year medical
college I was in a big high-powered Ivy
League --is-- sort of environment and
getting my ass handed to me but but
doing well you know and I was at the end
of that first semester I was like well
this is not worth it and I am miserable
I got to get away from this even though
I did fine it was I screw this this
isn't mine I didn't you know I didn't
want to do this everybody wanted me to
do it so that's when I just went and
just started doing other things on that
school plot and it was more miserable
but different visible I was depressed
and law has a purpose you know where you
I need structure ya know purpose of
structure I need all that I like all
that I didn't know it's time but but I
know what now and and when I started
thinking when I allowed myself which is
another a year and a half later start
thinking that maybe that medicine thing
maybe that would be something to think
about it just a thought relieve my
depression just the axis just
just letting it cross my mind that maybe
I could do that I was like oh that feels
lame it's like stop fighting stop
fighting it and now I went back and that
was like two years later I'm like 1920
comes 17 one went to college I was I was
young and I was like oh I can do this I
can know that I want to do it I can do
it and that and I had to do a lot of it
because now I was behind the 8-ball
right I was now a junior and I'd only
done one semester my pre-med semi to get
my crap together and yeah and then when
I got to medical school I was elated all
the time I loved it I loved every minute
of it
so talk to me about some of the things
you've experienced you said listening to
addicts you'll sometimes even hear
things yeah I hear things feel things
all kinds of things so I'll it'll be
like you know I'm feeling like my back
suddenly hurts right here and is that I
don't normally feel pain there and the
page will go oh well that's what dad
used to kick me when I was right and
what's weird about it whenever you're in
a close connection they'll always say it
matter of fact like of course that's
where dad kicked me anyway so as I'm
saying no just cool well I like like not
like how did you know they never say
that it's so weird because you're in it
together you're in it how do you explain
that as a man of science and I've seen
to be very careful dancers yeah there is
a guy named Allan schore another guy you
should in every weekend he has worked
out a lot of the what's called right
brain - right brain holistic interaction
between and amongst people that there is
a there is a whole ISM of our experience
of emotional attunement with another
that we're not experiencing constant
minute-to-minute
and we're sending tons of information
back and forth is it merely some sort of
state saying or is it pheromones or is a
tiny micro movements of my face or I
don't know what it it but I know it's I
know it's back in the myth zone you know
it's in the holistic some conscious back
with that you know Vegas embedded sore
something maybe it's these three things
these are like little brains maybe these
brains are doing something that we just
don't haven't figured out and right I
mean why not they're gigantic nervous
people it's what it's the what certain
philosophy is called the chakras but
they're actually
yeah and people say what do you what do
you say when you've been emotion hurt
like right my heart hurts and you know
what turns out your vagus is feeling
what's going on in your heart and there
are all these hormones and then
emotional your heart does hurt right
what's happening we think of we've been
always thinking oh it's just the brain
reflecting something I don't think so I
think your heart hurts and I think you
experiencing something out of your body
and and maybe this heart to heart I'm
feeling something right now from you
just as I sit here it feels more open
you feeling that I just sitting here
with you talking about my heart I feel
like that has meaning to you I don't
know why I think that sure but that's
the kind of stuff that comes out of me
want on a city in close contact with
somebody Allah and that's I can always
trust that stuff because I don't know
what it is and where comes from but I
know it has meaning Wow how many addicts
of you or anybody for that matter have
you sat with like really in an intense
get locked in kind of what thousands and
I because I believed my job was to model
closeness addicts are disconnected their
disconnect from the self to disk area
they don't trust anything and and I
always thought amongst getting them
medically situated and in the program a
blah blah blah I always thought that one
of my Jobs was to show them that they
can tolerate closeness because then they
could go do that with a appear in
recovery we call that a sponsor and that
that was to me that was always the
essential ingredient to getting them out
they did have a sponsor they no chance I
mean even thought about happiness I know
in fact we just can't wrap without
talking about it okay okay
happiness I think people they got the
word wrong I think I think they don't
know the hell they're talking about
I think people measure happiness they're
measuring sort of some subjective
experience that's sort of everyone has a
modicum of love we our brain naturally
put us into sort of a median state like
that they've all shown that every time
somebody has a horrific experience or
quadriplegic or something their
happiness their subjective - of scale
returns essential to normal most people
or if they win the lottery their
happiness kill returns to normal I don't
think they're asking about the right
thing I think I think happiness is more
about leading a certain kind of life
and we have to really think about what
that means and leading a good life may
not be feel-good that really know Jesus
a good life said Socrates lead a good
life sure but would you say no the most
the time do you think that was I
wouldn't want to live though that would
be my good life right that would be my
good life but but there wouldn't be your
good life it wouldn't be a pleasurable
life neither for me I wouldn't want that
I couldn't I couldn't Oliver it does too
much for me I'm not up to that right
that I mean I can't even aspire to it to
that kind of stuff but but I do think I
could lead a life that would be
eudaimonic for me that would be
flourishing for me that's because
because I sort of have that part because
I had all these greats wonderful skills
I've been trained in and so I always
have something to offer you know my more
my thing is I'm more worrying about
money to hand over to my kids and
support them in graduate school but
that's for me my stress is lie in terms
of finding meaning and being able to
make a difference I always can go do it
I got something too often all the time
and that sort of where my good life is
is like I feel fortunate and being able
to this we're doing here is sort of
beyond for me like this is like oh this
is beyond a good life this is something
I didn't even expect but I'm I'm all
about it so there were two things in
that that you said earlier so tech name
which you just talked about and they'll
throw thesis from wisdom so this is the
part that most of the Millennials are
missing right now got a bunch of light
lanterns so you guys have all this
information all this stuff you know but
you don't have any experience and
experience of learning to me that's the
most important part of my learning you
know applied knowledge experiential you
know clinical experience experiences
with other people and stuff that's where
you know it's whether your mind really
it's a different wiring it's a different
wiring and so you know they've always
got their Google and they have unlimited
information they do know a lot they know
a lot but they have tons of knowledge
but very little wisdom very little
experience and that is necessary for the
good life phronesis is necessary and
then technique again isn't really
information isn't knowledge it's a kind
of some sort of skill set that you can
that you can then apply that you can
bring for other people think about every
great man
whether it's Candide right has Candida
and you know full also cootie they knows
our dad it's just take care of our guard
take care of ourselves take care of our
family take care of our community
Gilgamesh the oldest myth in existence
after all his things with inky due and
his crazy trips and the adventures go
back and serve my community that really
all pretty much all great myths sort of
end with that like that's really where
the meaning lives you got to do all
these things you got to have your life
chorus and you got to identify with
certain archetypes that ultimately go
back to your community make a difference
I love that what do you what advice yet
for people that want to get more
technique or phronesis go school learn
towards I would I think it takes it
takes a long time I mean think about it
yeah you may already have it maybe
somebody you have these skills or maybe
you have skills you haven't thought
about how you could apply them in ways
it can make a difference but most of us
do so maybe that's part of it is to
think about using your skills and new in
different ways but don't be freaked
about a friend I'm I was thinking about
a guy in the other day who was very
successful in business and he was still
had that feeling like I need to I didn't
make a difference he looked back to
nursery school
you know what spend time like it's
fantastic now always has something to
offer he only does something he knows he
can do people for that person in that
moment he can make a difference he has a
ton of skills well you don't think about
that and that's that to me was like that
he's got it that was it
and is there anything in your life that
you're trying to add now to round out
your good I mean from the outside it
looks seems like you live an amazing
life of giving to people and helping and
I feel super grateful
I think gratitude is the number one sign
that you're happy
I think people you know people ask me
how do you know if you're happy I go I
think I feel gratitude two or three
times a day I'm in I know I'm in the
right where I need to be I love that all
right where can these guys find you
online just go to please go to dr. calm
we've got a bunch of my wife you very
kindly came on the podcast she has this
life and weekly infusion these are fun
podcasts when I do a bump forest the guy
with the hat my glasses from Celebrity
Rehab and also with if you're anybody or
Carolla fans you wanna come on the
crawler podcast and it's our whole other
interesting
person and Adam I do a podcast every day
it's all it's all at dr. calm but dr.
spaz dr. Bruce and I do a podcast there
if you're to be any krola fans are in
the mix here they will know who this
doctor spat and we actually do really
actually we we take very I guess we call
it's on the margin medical topics and
really make them come to life very very
interesting stuff like a guy that you
know was blind his whole life and
suddenly gets his vision what is the
neurobiolo