Kind: captions
Language: en
hey everybody welcome to another episode
of after impact I am your host Tom Bilu
and I am here with none other than agent
Smith Mr Bilu what is up dude how you
doing I'm very well thank you how about
yourself good you ready to crush this
naven Jane episode I'm ready did you
have a nice uh holiday fourth July I did
I did it was very sort of atypical from
a fourth perspective in that I saw three
fireworks oh all through my bathroom
window on my way to bed
and that was it but uh yeah we had a
lovely time weather was Insanity so we
took real advantage of that and uh and
it was a Tuesday which was made it even
more bizarre yeah it was kind of a weird
holiday yeah in the middle of the week
there it was but we're back so we're
pre-recording this we should we should
note um so we're talking about Fourth of
July which was last week in your future
world yes um all right naine Jane so I
want to give a little bit of background
on naine Jane he is a serial
entrepreneur and thought leader um he
grew up poor in India and immigrated to
the US in
1979 he's an engineer by training and
worked for a number of startups in the
80s um before working for Microsoft and
then eventually going on to found a
company called infospace and then
another company called intellius but his
latest Venture is called Moon Express
which is super interesting and their
objective is to send machine operated
spacecraft to the Moon to mine it for
natural resources so literally a moon
shot literally yeah yeah awesome so
obviously you have a history with naine
you guys know each other very well um I
want to dive into the episode this is a
really strong one I think it's going to
really resonate with people and the
first thing you guys touch on um which I
want to get more of your thoughts on is
Millennial guilt over profits yeah so I
know this is something um naven says
doing good and doing well don't have to
be mutually exclusive um and I know this
is something that seems to really
trouble you happening right now and I
want I want to understand why why it's
troubling me or why it's happening why
it's troubling you and then we'll go
into why we think it's happening all
right fair enough so the reason that it
troubles me is it's bad for getting [ __ ]
done and and when people have a a
nonuseful strategy to a very important
problem I get super freaked out yeah so
I think that um corporations is sort of
greed is good mentality is horrific and
it leads us nowhere and it's an equally
bad strategy to a very important problem
but when the strategy is focused on
tearing something down is focused on
giving instead of problem
solving You by definition aren't solving
the problems that need to be solved and
I thought that navine really summed up
my feelings when he said philanthropy
should never be about giving money it
should be about solving a problem and I
thought that is so important like I need
people to understand that is if you
really want to have the impact that you
want want to have going and screaming at
people for doing it the wrong way or
going and giving money to somebody that
does not have a self- sustaining
economic engine and the the most
important thing to understand about me
is I believe the only thing in today's
age that's sellable over the long run is
value so with that belief I'm saying
self-sustaining economic Vehicles
deliver value that's it so by definition
I think that in a hyperconnected social
world where you can reward and punish
companies immediately by telling people
what they're really all
about the only companies that are going
to last are going to be the companies
that deliver Val more value than they
take so with that like as your sort of
Baseline assumption from there I really
believe if you want to solve these Grand
challenges you have to do it in a way
that's self- sustaining and it's really
interesting to put him in context
because there's a real argument right
now between what actually innovates is
it Cor operations that really can't
stomach long Burns which I totally get
or is it governments that can because
they don't as much have to justify like
profitability and things like that so
when you look at his latest company
viome it's actually leveraging uh a
governmental um initiative which was to
find out from uh a national security
perspective what impact the microbiome
would play play if there were um an
attack a terrorist attack of um of what
nature they were looking at I don't
entirely know but you can imagine
biological probably was their primary
focus yeah so in doing all of that they
spent hundreds of millions of dollars
really having some breakthrough
Innovations in terms of how to really
check at a detailed effective level
what's going on in the microbiome and
then they make this stuff available and
that's true of like universities of
governments like there are a lot of in
institions out there that have their own
reason for doing the research but they
never plan to figure out how to actually
monetize that thing but we're living in
a world where that exists so I don't
care like what the argument is whether
it's corporations whether it's
governmental institutions universities
whatever we live in a world where there
are so many untapped resources and they
are untapped specifically because people
don't know how to make money at them
right so really think about that some of
the grandest discoveries and things that
we've made they lay dormant until
somebody finds a way to make use of them
why because only value sustains and it's
the Breakthrough isn't in and of itself
valuable it's somebody who comes along
and understands how that can play in in
a way that can be delivered to people in
a way that they'll pay for so like
understanding how the microbiome plays
in terms of a biological attack that is
not useful for my wife but viome as a
company leveraging that technology for
her to understand what's going on and
how her diet and supplementation needs
can be met or missed
by by by understanding that she knows
what's being met Miss excuse me and then
she can take um action based on that and
I hope and I don't know how much viome
can tell you what to do but I think
that's their ultimate play because
there's so many regulations around this
stuff but ultimately that's what I would
want viome to be doing right so hey
here's the state of your microbiome do
exactly this and either themselves would
produce the things that need to be um
intake and whether that's special
probiotic food whether that's prebiotics
sorry probiotics um are the actual
bacteria or the Prebiotic to feed them
um or the supplements or whatever or
work with other companies to make
recommendations either way I don't care
she has a problem I want it solved and
that value is monetizable so when I
really so you know my obsession with the
game no [ __ ] what would it take to
me that always ends up being tell me
more I promised that was accidental and
that the cup exists because I have such
a fish belief around no [ __ ] what
would it takeen out the other way around
um but yes please go to shop. impact
theory.com to show us whether we're
delivering enough value with that to
sustain but that's really what people
have to do
is ask the question how do you actually
solve this problem and that's where it
gets really interesting to me and I
won't take us yet down the his Road of
like desalinization is actually curing a
symptom and not the real problem and
like how he breaks it down I trust we'll
get into that later but um really asking
yourself no [ __ ] how do we solve
this problem is where you're going to
end up every single every single time at
it has to be a monetizable event because
think about the way that even
philanthropy works because this is where
people like look so far and then they
stop looking because they don't like
what they see philanthropy requires the
cooperation of people who have created a
self-sustaining economic vehicle period
like you're going out and begging money
from people and whether that's your
average everyday person who has you know
very little to spair but you get them an
Aggregate and you get enough money or
you're going straight for what most
people do which is going for the truly
wealthy and asking them to write really
big checks at the end of the day either
way you shake it or bake it you're
tapping into the way that economies work
and economies are driven by the things
you can sell and generate Revenue period
so literally like going and attacking
that it doesn't make any sense and now
if you want to get into capitalism
versus communism just to keep it really
easy read the book hodus and he goes
into don't worry about like the um the
moral answer to whether capitalism or
communism is better or worse simply ask
a question what are those two means of
thought and his answer which I find
utterly like there's no way around it is
they are simply forms of processing data
period now once you accept that
capitalism is a form of processing data
communism is a form of processing data
then you can say okay which one is more
efficient at processing data and his
whole argument again read it directly
from him it's amazing uh is capitalism
is distributed data processing so you're
asking each local area how much bread
for instance it was the example they
used in the book uh
homas how much bread should be produced
and what should the cost of that bread
be okay well have that it's going to be
decided region by region it's going to
be decided how many people want bread at
that time how much are they willing to
pay for it the market will tell you what
it can bear and how much it wants in
communism you're asking one centralized
place the government to make that
decision and say like hey this is how
much we need here this is how much we
need there we know how that ends up with
people waiting in line for bread because
that is impossible to have centralized
it's just one it varies and two to make
every like have you ever been in a
company where there's like an obscene
bottleneck like I have been that
bottleneck before I know what that looks
like it's just stupid so I could keep
going but I'll stop there but to me like
people are getting hung up on
Morality In The Abstract rather than
actually dealing with the reality which
is philanthropy is going out and begging
money that's the truth and so now you're
beholden to somebody making that money
and are you saying you don't care the
way that they make that money I'm saying
I care and I care very deeply about how
they made their money I want them to
make their money doing something that's
actually beneficial but to say that
making money is somehow intrinsically
bad like it doesn't like the whole
concept breaks down it just breaks down
Madness and you think that's how we got
to this place is that people confusing
morality with the efficiency of or the
the value system of of creating creating
money no I think that we got to this
place by companies being truly parasitic
MH many companies taking horrific
advantage of people um that the there
was probably I'm not knowledgeable
enough about sort of the history and the
movements of capitalism communism all
that like I'm not the guy you should be
listening to for that but I have a gut
instinct that there were enough
companies um that really were just just
pillaging and take take take take take
with no concern for environment no
concern for employees no concern for how
this plays out in in
longevity so like I get that I I get why
people are rebelling so once you accept
I'm rebelling too okay if you can look
at me for a second as like a wild Rebel
who is pushing back against like greed
is good and all that stupid [ __ ] but see
how I'm rebelling which I think is the
Rebellion that makes sense and I'm
saying this is about problem solving
okay I'm going to quote nen again
philanthropy should not be about giving
money it should be about solving a
problem so I look at obesity I look at
um ill health I look at the pandemic of
the body and I don't say who do I get to
donate money so we can do a whole bunch
of research and solve this problem I say
how do we get people leveraging their
behavior how do I get them to want to to
to do the right thing I'm having a
stroke and this also touches on another
quote that naen has don't worry about
leading a horse to water and trying to
get them to drink make them thirsty
they'll find the water for themselves so
that was the whole thing with Quest was
how do you get people to want to eat
right how do you get them to want to eat
right and let me tell you it isn't
longevity it isn't even looking good
like it has to taste good like you need
to Leverage that people are compelled
biologically to eat certain things make
those things healthy yeah like that's
the punchline how do you get people to
get out of the Matrix make the bricks
with which they build their belief
system which is really what that's a
problem of make the bricks that they bu
build their belief system around
unavoidably
empowering unavoidably empowering and
this kind of goes into something that
naine talks about a lot in the episode
which is solving the problem and not the
symptom so how do you get to a place
where you're thinking that way and and I
don't know can you give some examples of
times when you found yourself that you
were you were attacking a symptom and
not the actual root problem perfect yes
the original idea behind Quest started
from a conversation that my partner and
I had where I was talking about my
sister she was um depressed and like how
do you make her happy and so we started
talking about okay well we could kidnap
her take her out to international waters
I could disguise myself I don't want her
to resent me um we take her out
international waters CU I don't want to
go to jail like I mean just like the
whole literally walking through and it
was no [ __ ] it would work to get her
lean which was one of the things that we
thought like the body image is so
important to her self-esteem and all
that so but we were addressing the
symptom right we weren't addressing what
was really causing it which was at its
most basic she's eating food that she
has a negative metabolic response to and
so once we understood okay like if you
actually want to help help somebody be
healthy if you want to help them get in
shape and all that you can
either basically um try to do something
like that which would work it would get
her lean but at the end of the day it's
not she's going to come back and resent
the [ __ ] out of what just happened to
her she's then going to eat a ton of bad
food again because you didn't actually
address the real problem and the real
problem is that people get into that
negative spiral because the things that
they're biologically pushed to eat are
terrible for them on a metabolic level
so if you're going to Leverage Behavior
instead to try to change it like you
have to address the food supply now the
second company I'm building is to really
finally answer the question because at
the end of the day to be frank while I
think the body is really really
important it won't in and of itself
solve depression okay which was actually
the problem I was trying to deal with so
that's why I always said there were two
ways to get to the Mind through the body
which does get like this really positive
thing going I mean you can test people
neurologically if you make them exercise
they'll do better on test I mean it's
crazy so there really is something going
on with the body so we were not too far
off track with that but then ultimately
it's the mind like your mind has to be
right and so that's why this company
while people I worry I really do worry
about this people will see the um us
approaching narrative and all that stuff
and confuse us for somebody who cares
about that intrinsically like in and of
itself as if that were an end and that's
not and that's why the universe of
stories that we will tell is so finite
because I'm only interested in telling
stories that pull people out of the
Matrix sure so that to me is addressing
the symptom versus addressing the
problem the problem is the
neurochemistry and the wiring of your
brain
period awesome it's great and I think
this will be an interesting segue into
you know you mentioned depression
and I know that there's been a lot of
research lately about the microbiome and
its effects on you know the bacteria in
your gut and its effects on depression
anxiety no this is a subject that is um
you're personally invested in and we
touched on it already but I want to go a
little bit deeper into tell me about
some of the research you're doing and
how big you think this is going to be in
the future of healthcare it's really
interesting that so this you want to
talk about one of the most natural ties
to an episode ever it would be that so
leas has been struggling for a lot
longer than I knew that naven was um
looking into the microbiome and I talked
about this in the episode and I really
did call [ __ ] on him and I was like
what what do you like what do you know
about the the microbiome dude like I
really felt like what I had learned at
Quest just put me so much farther ahead
than most people and so when I was
talking to him I'm thinking Moon Express
like I know him um on that side the
engineering side the computer
engineering and so I'm like
like I I just I'm going to push because
I know him well enough that I can and
it's it's so important to me to solve
this problem with my wife so we were at
an exerprise event and he was like oh
I'm launching this new company it's
called viome and it's all about the
microbiome and I think we've really
figured something out and it's you know
you got to be going way deeper than the
companies that are testing it and I was
just like okay well what do you know
about this and need'd answer it what do
you know about like this and need'd
answer it and like really compell in
thoughtful
answers I was like na like where have
you learned all of this like now I
realize he knows 10x 100 times more
about it than I did so I was just I was
humbled to be sure and whenever I see
that somebody like knows something I
just immediately go into student mode
like I just want to learn learn learn so
I promptly metaphorically of course sat
myself at his feet and just started
asking asking asking and really began to
realize
okay not only is this a huge problem but
he may and I don't know enough yet to
know for sure but he may be on to the
right answer here's why I find his
answer compelling it's not enough so he
talks about understanding things at the
genus level it's not enough to
understand like
what bacteria you have in your gut which
is pretty much where everybody else is
the microbiome is made up of a lot more
than just bacteria it's back Bia it's uh
viruses it's fungi it's phases which
that's something like fases every time I
say that word I have this overwhelming
sense of guilt so I have to like
disclose I don't understand them yet at
all I've never even heard that word
before so it's a thing uh I'm learning
slowly about them um but so that's sort
of our understanding of the microbiome
now as you talk to anybody who is an
expert in the microbiome the first thing
they will fall over themselves to tell
you we just don't know enough yet so
there so many questions in all of this
um but there's just phenomenally
interesting studies that come out and
this is why believe in in whoever solves
a problem and if it's naen awesome I
really like him it'd be amazing to see
that happen um I think it's too early to
call a horse in this but when you see
and he talks about this in the episode
how many things now people are saying
God like there's some at least
correlation maybe causation between
things that are going on in the gut he
talks about Parkinson I think he
mentioned Alzheimer's um in the episode
and just way more the levels of
Serotonin something like 80% of all the
serotonin in your body um starts as
either a signal produced by your
microbiome in the gut or actually
produced in the gut I don't remember the
exact stat but utterly fascinating that
up to roughly 80% of the serotonin which
is that Feelgood neurochemical
neurotransmitter um in your brain is is
either it's controlled by your gut will
just say it like that if that's true
like that alone which one would explain
why when your diet gets so out of whack
that you can really create emotional
problems for yourself and one of the
ways to just start feeling better and
that's how everybody's always talked
about it it makes you feel better but
why and if it's because you're no longer
disrupting your microbiome's ability to
um regulate your serotonin levels like
that alone would be a massive
breakthrough that honestly will earn
somebody a Nobel Prize or at least
should because that's so important like
when I think about all the people that
write me every day about
suicide that actually scares me that's
one of those things that like it's
somebody like the way I feel when I read
somebody that's writing to me about
suicide like I can all but hear like the
clanking of the Gun Barrel against like
the [ __ ] tables and [ __ ] like it's
just so scary like when you hear
somebody playing with um something that
dangerous it's like you've got to seek
help immediately so when I think that
the microbiome may may may may be one of
the most important factors in regulating
your
neurochemistry oo that would make it
because I believe that we are truly
living through an era of the pandemic of
the mind that becomes one of the most
important things to address wow well
it'll be exciting to see where that goes
in the next 10 years 20 years for sure
um okay let's let's switch gears here a
little bit
so
uh so he says that entrepreneurs will
make nation states irrelevant one day
and I want to dive into this and
understand your your position like do
you think this will happen maybe
partially so you asked for my position
so and I think that's important to say I
think Nan is insanely smart so I don't
easily like um discount what he's saying
but I will say that statement sort of in
its bold like binary stance I think is
crazy um I think that so discounts the
truth of The Human Condition I most
people don't think like entrepreneurs
most people there will forever be at
least in the world that I can predict
there will be so many different
entrepreneurs with differing agendas and
all that stuff that they'll they'll have
like once you go like one of his sort of
definitions for um being a superpower is
only three superpowers so far have ever
landed on another Celestial body so he
would become the fourth
if that's how you define a superpower
yes but I think like we probably need a
broader more encompassing definition of
superpower I think that nation states
will always be important uh have you
started watching the show glow
Christopher recommended I've watched
three episodes you haven't gotten to
this one yet it's not really giving
anything away but there's this point
where um the producer and the director
are both telling uh one of the wrestlers
uh to do different things and the
wrestler goes who's in charge and that
like people hunger to know ultimately
who do I listen to so I think there's
always going to be a nation state that
at the end of the day has the authority
to put you in jail and so they create
laws and so you know like who's the
final Authority in all of this and
there's somebody to Wrangle all of the
desperate entrepreneurs like even in
Lord of the Flies like ultimately
somebody has to be like the final say
otherwise will inevitably reain um I
think that humans naturally fall into
that we look for leadership we're a pack
animal like on and on and on so uh
you'll you'll have entrepreneurs that
have elements of power that have
traditionally been reserved for nation
states but you won't actually have them
replacing nation states all right fair
enough had to get your thoughts on that
uh here's a quote from the episode the
day we stop being intellectually curious
is the day we die I love that and I
wanted to ask you why do you think
curiosity is so important important to
fulfillment in
life you're now like tapping into
something I find so
distressing and I don't know what to do
with
this naveen's kids really are
fascinating and I don't know if he's
just that good at making people thirsty
or if he just got lucky and with his
genetic wiring and his wife's and where
his kids grew up that I don't know I
want to believe that he did it on
purpose you know me I want to believe
all of that stuff is controllable but
some of the most haunting words in my
life and I think they came from Plato
were was is are the only the only
impossible task is raising children it
seems like the butterfly effect to me
like so many things go into that I know
these two identical twins that I grew up
with I love them like brothers you can't
imagine I feel so close to them even to
this day but when I think about how
different they are it's like what the
[ __ ] like why aren't you guys
essentially exactly the same you grew up
in the same household you had mostly the
same friends but clearly things happened
that made their belief systems and their
desires and all of that like diverge and
that is so intriguing to me I just don't
think you can control enough variables
so his whole thing
about make people thirsty is precisely
the reason and in opposite camps by the
way so his whole thing don't lead a
horse of water don't worry about that
focus on making people thirsty I love
that I love that I love that I want it
to be true I don't believe it is I sit
over here and I want to be convinced
keep in mind but I sit over here and I
say
I'm a filtering mechanism I'm not I'm
never going to try to make anyone
thirsty but if you're thirsty come to me
I have solutions for you but if you're
not thirsty like I can't help so that's
the thing that terrifies me it feels
like a weakness in my own game I really
really want to think that I can make
people thirsty life has tried to teach
me that I just can't maybe I'm just bad
at it cool I'm super open to that
because if I'm just bad at it I can get
good and that would make me much happier
about pulling people out of the Matrix
right now I simply filter for people who
raise their hand and say I want out okay
rad once you want out I'm your man I can
help you but like if you so uh Ibrahim
and Lisa C I think it was put a
challenge to me in slack and they were
like [ __ ] I don't understand
this culture what is the impact Theory
culture which left I wanted to fall over
I was how's that possible all I do all
day is put out [ __ ] content about
what the what it is but I have learned
like when people say they don't get it
it's because you're [ __ ] up so now
I've started like putting it down right
like really like writing down like what
are the things like for instance we have
an unlimited vacation policy but I
[ __ ] believe that if you take a day
that you haven't earned like shame on
you right but who gets to decide if
you've earned it you and nobody else and
that's the whole reason that we have the
policy is I recognize and I will bring
us back I promise I recognize that one
of the fundament drivers of fulfillment
which is where your question started see
you haven't forgotten fulfillment is
being able to control your own destiny
having things like in your control when
to take a day off that's a pretty rad
one to control if you want a random
Tuesday take a random
Tuesday but my whole thing
is if you're if when I say work hard
work smart and long hours if that's
offensive to you I'm not your guy and
I'm not going to try to convince you of
that that's not interesting to me that's
thirst right that do you want it or not
so bringing it all back round to
fulfillment like there are things to me
that man you either have or you don't
thirst is one of them if being
intellectually curious is not in you
which to me is thirst right which is why
I tied it all to that if you're not
intellectually intellectually curious I
I don't know how to help you like I
don't know how to get you there so my
only hope is you just haven't
encountered enough [ __ ] that basically
you're back where I was when I was
saying I don't like to read and the
truth of the matter was Everyone likes
to read you just haven't found what you
like to read about now I want to believe
that same thing is true of intellectual
curiosity but there are enough people in
my life who they've seen what
intellectual curiosity has done for me
that I've tried to inter that I have in
fact this is what terrifies me I've
introduced them to ideas that make them
light up and you see them like whoa and
you think oh my God they're going to go
read a 100 books on this topic and they
don't they go do nothing like they go
back to their job that they hate they
come home and watch TV that does not
Inspire them they they don't do anything
with it and so even though when they're
around me I'm going to be really
arrogant and gross for a minute when
they're around me I can see your life is
better because you're near me because
I'm introducing you to stuff that you
think is really interesting and because
it's not difficult you can just keep
asking me questions like like there it
is and like that spark is there and
you're loving it but as soon I I believe
I have a 2hour impact on people once
you're not around me anymore it's two
hours of diminishing returns and by the
end of the two hours you can't remember
and you can't recapture that feeling of
motivation that you had when you're
around me that really freaks me out it
further enforces the sense that either
you're intellectually curious ious are
you not so now why is that important if
you're intellectually curious one it
makes you feel alive in and of itself so
let's say I was on a desert island and I
could read books about things I would
never be able to use I'd still find it
rad like I would still like I would
rather be on a desert island with um
10,000 non-fiction books okay so it's
not even fiction like I get to go on
some amazing journey and I get to be
teleported off the desert island it's
10,000 non-fiction books that are going
to help me build my skill set I'd still
rather that I'd still rather build a
skill set even if I don't have all the
cool ways to use it I'd always be
mortified that I'm not able to but I'd
still rather have the first part just
because it makes me feel alive in and of
itself
so yeah to me intellectual curiosity is
like sex if I have to like explain why
it would be rad I don't know what to do
like Yeah I wanted sex long before I had
it the first time so I don't know what
else to do uh do you feel like when you
before you learned to like reading was
would you describe yourself as curious
at that
time uh yes but like that's it's
probably a pretty cheap answer there
were things that I was way into like
before I found out that I liked reading
I wanted to be a ninja okay and I used
to make ninja courses in my backyard and
I wanted to ride motorcycles and I
wanted to like do
BMX and so I made those things a part of
my life uh because I found them awesome
and I dressed as a ninja like four or
five times for Halloween it's the only
costume I've ever been more than once I
now refuse to dress up I hate it more
than I can tell you but when I was a kid
and loved it the most uh I wanted to be
a ninja so I used to get karate books
and practice karate right I mean it's
like all those things watch the Karate
Kid and then go and like kick your
neighbors in the face and I mean that
was like that was the bees knes right
right so yes so you feel like you've
always had it then I feel like I've
always had it and I don't know if
somebody did something to make me that
way if I bumped into something when I
was a kid or if I I'm just like that I
don't know I don't know so my question
was going to be how can we get more
curious but since you believe you either
have it or you don't no I don't I I
don't want to believe that oh God and I
did earlier say that I know I so don't
want to believe it I need right now I
need to believe that somebody can show
me how to make people intellectually
curious how to make them thirsty I want
them to show me that so let me ask a
different question for the curious
person how do you what's the best way to
feed your curiosity read read read read
and by reading these days now I mean
also podcasts and but like go deep on a
topic and that's one of the things that
like I would love for us to find a way
and I've been brainstorming I'd love for
us to have tentacles that go deep down
certain topics um because I feel like
we're sort of at a high level building
just mindset but one of the things I
love the most is going really really
deep on a topic and like really getting
good and since my answer to people is
cuz people are asking quite frequently
like okay how do I like really be
successful how do I get my kids to be
successful how do I set them up for
success and the answer is they have to
get good at something like you have to
get really good at something get so good
they can't ignore you that's one of the
answers so reading I think is huge um
but if I'm honest in my research of the
microbiome I spend more time on YouTube
and podcasts than I do in books yeah so
just learning looking for different
sources talking to people is there one
is there one that's more important than
the other for you talking to people
versus consuming sort we'll call it
published knowledge which I'll let be
YouTube podcast books all of it because
they're all very similar to me but I
would describe them as different forms
of knowledge one is a book is really
well researched um it's been reviewed
it's been edited um if you're talking
about academic Journal it's been
reviewed and edited I won't give you
that podcasts aren't well researched so
my thing is you want you want to
encounter a breath of ideas that's
critical okay so naine talks about this
in the episode um don't read one person
don't pick one expert and go hard on
that like you need a breath so that it
doesn't just become you sort of
borrowing their ideology like you need
to take it all in and then synthesize
your own belief system because you
actually understand this stuff and I
think I think that's really really
important and so I I can't remember what
I called the um the note and OTE but
it's literally like me collecting the um
the brightest minds and right now I
don't care if they conflict right now
like that would actually be useful to
find out like where people agree where
they disagree um I want a breadth I want
a wide swath of ideology and how do you
determine for yourself if it's a bright
mind wow I've never had to answer that
question uh uh well I will I will tell
you this watching
naven and I know naen watching naine I
was struck again in in fact here's what
the actual thought process I had
watching the episode I felt like someone
should write in and if if we don't get
this comment in YouTube I'll be a little
disappointed [ __ ] you guys give the
questions to your guests ahead of time
naven is so rehearsed there's no way he
didn't know what the questions were and
the only question we tell people ahead
of time is the final question what
impact you want to have on the world
because I don't want people to sit there
and be like uh uh uh yeah so that's the
only one that we tell people ahead of
time other than that even I don't know
what I'm going to ask so that's just
Naveen like talking to him you can't
help you may hate naven but you can't
say he's not bright so listening to him
it's like he believes what he's saying
yeah maybe he's wrong but he believes
what he's saying maybe he's wrong but
it's well researched Maybe he's wrong
but he's passionate like you put those
things together and it's like and one
way like I'll just tell you if when
somebody's talking you feel like I've
gotten 100% of what they know like if
you don't feel like you're getting 95%
of what I know about the microbiome
every time I talk about it you're just
not listening closely enough I clearly
don't know enough about it right I'm I
have this very thin layer of knowledge
that I'm trying to make deeper but if
you ever feel like you've gotten 100% of
what I know about the mind listening to
me talk then I'm terrified I I am always
mortified that I can only ever get like
20 30% of like this universe of [ __ ]
that I have in my head about the mind
out um and that's why it's always fun
one of the reasons I love q&as is
because people ask me like questions
with all these little variations so now
we can start getting into the subtleties
of all this stuff so if I go and give a
talk I'll talk for like 30 minutes maybe
an hour but I'll answer questions for 6
8 hours right and even that I feel like
I'm just scratching the surface so
that's a big thing for me when I talk to
somebody do I feel like I just got
everything they know or do I feel like
God like no matter what question I
answer like they're touching on
something new and I begin to get this
map and I feel a bit like a blind person
of where like you're sort of touching on
their knowledge base and you realize
whoa this just like keeps going because
no matter where I try to like find that
edge I just realize there's much vaster
territory yeah um it's interesting one
of the things you guys talk about is
kind of how to learn um the navigating
the issue of being a learner SL and then
becoming an expert and I know your thing
about um you don't want knowledge to uh
aify and you have to constantly be
question aify what's aify I say calfy
but is aify a real word I think I think
we can we can interchange them yeahi is
to become like a bone is to form into a
bone yeah so
um where was I going with that oh I know
uh so he one of his strategies is to go
and read academic publication
so read um you know journals read
research articles really the latest
things that are coming out so going
right to the source of the people who
are the experts doing the research um I
just wanted to ask like have you ever
done any of that is that something that
you think is a good strategy for
learning as well no question um I
depending on where you I don't read
abstracts so we'll start with that I
definitely um want things like I would
read an abstract on uh psych uh
psychology study because I have enough
understanding of that neurochemistry and
all that um but even that I don't spend
a lot of time there um but getting to
like one step above that where it's now
ready for publication like that 100% And
that's essentially what you have to do
once you have a base of knowledge then
you've got to be going hard on like
what's coming out right now what is of
the moment um I wouldn't personally I
wouldn't start there to gain my
knowledge because like he's said 80% of
an article like that he's not going to
understand but he's at that point when
he gets to that phase of his education
he's got experts that he can go to and
ask for clarification and all that stuff
um so I would very much start with a
primer like whatever the topic is like
what's the for dummies version of that
like microbiome for the dummies not that
it exist but I would try to find that
thing okay I begin to understand the
Lexicon a little bit once I have the
vocabulary and I can understand a little
bit and by the way in the early days I'm
I look every up so as I was and it was
interesting to see in the um in the
episode he says a word you carry it he
said it strangely if I remember in
because of his accent in the episode and
I didn't understand it so I asked him
and then when I was researching I'd
forgotten it again and so I had to look
it up again but like doing which is a
single cell organism um if you don't
understand something you should stop and
take the time to figure it out like even
if that means that you have to like stop
every 2 minutes and like look something
up better that and like really start to
get a baseline understanding now there
will be more complex stuff that you're
going to have to just let it roll and
what I do is if it's a word that's like
easily lookup then I'll look it up if
it's a concept that I'm like oh I'm a
little hazy on that I'll keep reading
from a bunch of different authors
knowing if it's a a sort of really
foundational piece they're all going to
talk about it and so I'll hear it from
all these different viewpoints and I'll
begin to really understand what it is so
I won't like stop on everything but when
it's like I can tell this is a word I'm
going to need to understand um I'll stop
and better to stop a lot and really
understand what you're getting into then
not stop enough and just be like oh I've
read a lot but I don't actually
understand what anyone's talking about
it's bit it's a bit like learning the
language yeah you have to stop when
you're reading and look things up when
you don't get it 100% um that's cool so
tell me a little bit more about how you
navigate that road
between like becoming Bec the expert
yourself and he talks specifically about
the expert will tell you here's why it
can't be done and you keep asking them
questions and then they start to
convince themselves that maybe it can be
done so what's what's your strategy for
that now you have to go deep into uh
working with someone or how I gain the
knowledge um gaining the knowledge so I
start uh really specifically my process
goes like this I try to find a book
almost always a book that's a primer
that I feel like has been really
premastication and digested for the
masses so that I know they're writing to
make it accessible um then once I feel
like I know the Search terms then I'm
going to start dropping searches into
YouTube and I'll start watching a ton of
videos ideally from different
perspectives um consciously not being
dogmatic so there are things that like
will tap into where I think I know
something like I'm just give you an
example will and I were going hard on
this the other day I am dangerously
close to being dogmatic about being a
vegan which I know is going to give me
all all kinds of comments but
nonetheless is true um so on that in
particular when I see something from a
vegan I'll force myself to like hey I'm
open to becoming a vegan if somebody can
show me like the science and it really
makes sense like rad so those are good
exercises like to really open yourself
up and see somebody's perspective and
also to remind myself all of these
experts whether they're on the side that
I believe or on the side that I think is
crazy um they're all
dogmatic and and so they're already in a
dangerous place and so you've got to be
the one that is leveraging your naive so
that's really important for me in that
phase before I really understand enough
not to be Bamboozled by the person who's
the loudest or the most emphatic or the
most in line with what I already believe
like you've got to go in leveraging
knowing what makes me powerful at this
moment is actually I don't know too much
M and so going into it with a super open
mind and then I begin to refine and so I
might go deep like I might pick once
I've done the whole breadth of things I
might pick five six seven experts that I
really think like know what they're
talking about and I'll start going
really deep into their universe and
finding out what they're all about
following them socially watching all
their posts um and then once you have
that then it's and actually during that
process not quite as like simple as step
one step two step three but in that
process I try to start thinking about
how does this actually work like why
does this work so the way that they're
asking me to believe it functions so
like take psychology or mindset or any
of that whenever somebody ask me to ask
me a question I've never thought about
before all I'm doing is sliding back to
my understanding of the physics of the
Mind Right how neurochemistry Works how
brain wiring Works um how the
sympathetic nervous system
parasympathetic nervous system how we're
raised like how we hardwire things like
it's e you just slide back to the
physics and then give your answer from
there rather than which is where people
get themselves in trouble sliding back
to dogma and saying these are the
statements that I know and so I'm going
to say and if in fact if you watch from
the earliest days of inside quest to now
you'll see my belief system changing and
and I tried to do that on purpose and I
remember somebody read so good they
can't ignore you uh by Cal Newport and
they said oh man this book is really
going to freak you out like maybe you
shouldn't even read it because it's all
about how passion is [ __ ] and I was
like well I'm like the passion guy so if
somebody's written a book called about
passion being [ __ ] that's a book I
have to read so I need to find out like
can he can he either give me a better
and new belief system can he augment my
belief system whatever so you've got to
like keep that nimbleness and and making
sure that you're like really pushing
yourself but not being afraid to form
your own opinions about how things work
and so that's really an important part
of this is beginning to understand okay
this is how I I understand sort of the
the what I call the physics of the
situation and then getting into based on
that then what do I think would happen
here and then what do they say
oh oh okay so they understand something
I don't or actually I think they're
wrong and that's when it starts to get
really interesting is can you have a
hypothesis and then test it and see like
who's right and can you allow yourself
to believe in yourself enough that
you'll actually put forth here's what I
think is actually going on and be
willing to be wrong and test yourself
and all that that's great awesome um
naven says that you know he believes in
in education right he believes in
college and higher education and and he
says specifically that it is a safety
net or a backup for sort of the life of
the entrepreneur I want to get your
thoughts on that well I think we're in a
different place in higher education now
than he may think about because his kids
aren't going to walk away with college
debt okay so let's start with that so um
college debt scares me a little MH I had
enough college debt that it was a very
real part of my life but I didn't walk
away with like $80,000 in debt where
it's like all you think about um so uh I
think that we have to really stop and
take a look that if the current system
is not the best way to be educated what
is the best way to be educated and how
do you deal with that so I think that
and by the way I'm operating from the
assumption that people are like me
they're insatiably curious that they're
going to read and learn more after they
get out of college than they will in
college and I've learned even things
having to do with my major film making
I've learned way more about that after I
left than I did while I was there um but
his point about surrounding yourself
with people that are deeply passionate
about that and that they will probably
play a role in your life ongoing that's
absolutely true and for somebody like me
who's not great at um just like going
out and connecting with people that was
awesome to be forced into a universe
where you're going to get to know people
whether you want to or not that was
insanely useful for me so I'm very glad
given the circumstances of my life and
everything I'm very glad I went to
college also at that time that was the
very beginning of me really like
buckling down and learning and so having
the structure around me to force me
having deadlines and wanting to get
accepted into film school and having all
this external pressure allowed me to
build my mindset so that was really
critical for me and I think if you're a
couch potato if you're lazy if you're um
not self-directed yet right those are
all things I think people can change but
if you're not those things yet going to
an institution may be incredibly useful
for you now that institution doesn't
necessarily have to be a college you
could come be an internate impact Theory
and [ __ ] you're going to have a lot of
external pressure on you here to live up
to a certain um cultural criteria which
I'm writing down uh so right it doesn't
have to necessarily be that but I think
that um for some people it is the right
answer for many people it is not where
your financial options really at that um
be willing to in turn you have to learn
somehow some way you got to get so good
they can't ignore you so whatever path
you take to that I'm open there it is
all right I think we'll wrap it up there
for the day all right guys thank you so
much for joining us dive into nine Jane
like he is a truly fascinating
individual who's created some just
unbelievable companies his mindset is
amazing he did not get those questions
in advance that's really him just
thinking deeply about a lot of stuff uh
so you can't go wrong with this guy and
while he does does really talk about it
he has a deep desire to help people he
answers like all of his own email he
gave his email out it's crazy so he
wants to help people definitely does not
need to this man is spastically wealthy
so yeah leverage people like that who
really want to help dive into his world
if you haven't already be sure to
subscribe and until next time my friends
be legendary take
care