Kind: captions
Language: en
everybody Welcome to impact Theory you
were here my friends because you believe
that human potential is nearly Limitless
but you know that having potential is
not the same as actually doing something
with it so our goal with this show and
Company is to introduce you to the
people and ideas that will help you
actually execute on your dreams all
right today's guest is a human lie
detector who has dedicated her life to
cracking the code on interesting human
behavior a certified fraud example body
language expert and author of human lie
detection and Body Language 101 she has
literally written the book on reading
people she has traveled the world as a
speaker presenting her findings to
prestigious universities and Fortune 500
companies and she's been featured on NPR
The Today Show The Wall Street Journal
and a ton of other media Outlets but
saying that doesn't even scratch the
surface of what makes her so special the
self-described recovering awkward person
didn't just read a few books call
herself an exp and start blogging she
founded her own research lab conducted
hundreds if not thousands of her own
studies and as the lead researcher at
the science of people she is a Mas what
is arguably one of the most arresting
sets of science-backed insights into
human behavior that I have ever seen
every video every article every page of
her books will leave your jaw hanging
wide open with their transformative
usability she is transparent super
authentic and never afraid to ask an
inappropriately intimate question for
the benefit of all of us and all of that
gives her work an irreverent Sparkle
that makes it truly captivating whether
you want to understand yourself or
others better she's got the datadriven
goods you've been looking for so please
help me in welcoming the woman who used
to hide in the bathroom to avoid people
at parties and is now the most
captivating person in most any room the
author of The enthralling book Captivate
the science of succeeding with people
Vanessa van Edwards
[Applause]
welcome it is so good to have you on the
show that was the perfect hug yes that
was wonderful and we discussed it
beforehand which I think is important
disc I I like practicing hugs and
handshakes just because you have that
awkward moment that's like are we going
to are we going to handshake hug side
hug so that was perfect and what was the
other one squiggle a squiggle yeah that
was I had not heard of that but as soon
as you showed me what it was so a
squiggle is typically two women but not
always so a squiggle is a moving hug
it's like a a moving cuddle so it's when
people go
hug that's a squiggle yeah there are
squiggles in my life I'm GNA be really
honest I've witnessed them you know I
think you might like it you think like I
mean it's kind of like you know it's
like a bear hug but there's movement in
it it's like a dance we could squiggle
at the end if you want well give it a
shot that is it you and we should also
come up with a name for that hug that
where someone hugs and they go
the yeah I do that one a lot you do that
one that's a man to man that's a that's
a patty cake hug so I've got a weird
thing with um so like my wife my wife
will just set her hand on me for me my
hand has to be moving to show attention
oh which is partly why I think I do the
pat on the back thing but then I've seen
that made fun of so well the thing is is
so padding from a non-verbal perspective
it's an interesting non-verbal move so I
don't know if yeah I'm a little tense
now I know yeah well I should tell you
you should know so so padding if it's
done from above it's often a dominance
gesture okay so think about a dog right
what do we do we Pat a dog's head think
about a child we say good job good boy
so if it's done equally like you know oh
wow it's good to see you it's not so bad
but just be careful you're not like the
no that I don't do right so and you'll
notice that it's actually quite a
demeaning gesture there's certain
politicians you might have seen out
there that will um yeah just a few and
they will Pat they will Pat um on the
upper shoulders or on the upper back
it's a way of saying good boy good girl
interesting it's a very subtle
non-verbal cue but usually the equal Pat
which I think I don't know what do you
think about patty cake um know that's
not man enough yeah I don't I don't your
facial expression doesn't look so good
about it I've never had the instinct to
do that but like the one-handed like I I
would say 90% of my hugs incorporate
inate a p so maybe that's the Bro hug
yeah the BR the BR well let's just just
I like naming everything I name I name
car turns I name hug
like cre let's get into that because
it's actually pretty fascinating so what
I love is that so my core belief about
human existence is that you can learn
virtually anything yeah you've come a
long way from being the awkward person
do you think people can learn anything I
think people can learn anything I think
however you have a spectrum of how much
you can improve so like let's say for
example sports are the easiest way to
think about this so let's say for
example you are um a very light weight
compact male under 5 foot you would make
a great jockey right like you'd be great
at riding horses if you're small and
compact could you learn to be a
basketball player 100% but your ability
or your um percent Improvement is going
to is only going to be able to improve
so much and you're going to have to work
much harder for that compared to say a
6' s man who's going to have to work a
little bit less hard to be able to dunk
shots because he just is closer to the
closer to the N I think if you think it
that way it's how much work do you have
to do to get there so do you think that
part of why you've been able to get as
good as you have with breaking this
stuff down because you had to learn it
or do you think there's some another
another innate skill that you have
that's allowed for that I think it's
because and maybe other recovering
awkward people out there will feel this
way if you are a recovering awkward
person and I don't mean introvert cuz
not you know introverts do not have to
be awkward although I am introverted um
we are very good at observing and what
happens is is we see in interactions in
very black or white ways if you are
naturally charismatic or naturally good
with people you can walk into a room you
don't even have to think about a
conversation stter whereas if you're
awkward a room looks like either a
battlefield or a playground depending on
your mentality and so if you see a room
like a battle gun or or a playground
you're instantly looking for who's on
your team you're looking for patterns
you're looking for verbal weapons you're
looking for different kinds of things in
someone who will just walk into T them
and naturally have it right so I think
that what's helped is that that I tend
to see every interaction that way which
has helped me study it in a formulaic
way different what what Drew you to like
the science the study I mean not a lot
of people start their own research lab
so um I was a journalist so I was just
writing stories and I loved science I
for from a very young age my parents
encouraged the academic side the the
book smarts the IQ and I think I totally
forgot about the people smart side the
PQ thing so I I had all this ability to
read 20page academic studies and find
some usable nugget so I started to write
about that for different blogs and
journals out there and I realized that
the one thing that was could
differentiate me anyone could write you
know an article about science the one
thing that could change what I was
writing as if I tested things on myself
so I either became a human guinea pig or
I was able to actually do research in
the real world because most studies are
based on 20 College seniors who want
academic credit for a psychology class
they're not representative of the whole
po population so I thought if there was
one thing that could differentiate this
article from every other journalist it
would be adding my own take on it so it
was actually a a differentiator it came
from a place of trying to differentiate
my work from other journalists out there
and then of course a personal need that
I had to try to solve people which I
don't know if it's possible but I'm
certainly still trying it's interesting
to solve people what do you mean by that
you I loved in math class where you'd be
working on a math problem and the
teacher would be like okay here's a
formula for you right it was like being
given a cipher you know it was like the
most powerful thing and I thought what
if there was a cipher for people like
what if there was a way a formula for
people and so I I have something that I
call the Matrix was a little bit
different than the KE and re Reeves
Matrix which I believe that every person
has a cipher they have a set of um
values that you can solve about them
that if you turn it in the right ways
you can figure out how to figure out
their motivations how to figure out
their values how to speak to them so
they'll listen how to make them feel
loved and so that's the closest I've
come to actually solving people and it's
the only way that I found to interact
successfully and when you say solve
though are you saying to be able to have
like a useful interaction or to not to
not be so baffled by people's choices so
I don't interesting I don't know if this
is a paino for you but I was constantly
feeling like I didn't understand where
people were coming from or they would
making choices and I didn't understand
why um especially with friendships and
so I found that if I can figure out how
they're coded how they're wired no
longer to their decisions and their
actions become baffling right so give us
some of those things so in fact let me
you and I were talking about this but
let me break it down for you at home hi
um so the way that I normally prepare
for an interview is very different than
the way that I will go through a book
for a book review and uh started the
book on an international flight so I had
plenty of time and started it just to
read it as part of my interview prep for
this interview and then man like really
fast I was like W that was a cool
insight and then that was another one
and then rapidly it just turned into a
book review and I just like went in like
all the different points and how they
add up and just like all the things I
wanted in my own life and started cuz
you and and this is what I'd really like
you to talk about now you start breaking
down like what motivates people what's
their love language what's their primary
value that kind of stuff and so I
started going oh my God like what's mine
like first of all I didn't even know
mine and I found it very weird cuz I
consider myself super self-aware I found
it so much easier to identify my wife's
always then do I identify my own so what
are the like sort of key things to
understanding someone else or yourself
yeah so I like to think of people a
little bit like an onion um in that you
know there's different layers C it
exactly but tastes delicious once
cooked okay so the outside layer I think
is the easiest one to solve that's when
we start with so this is the Big Five
personality traits and there's a lot of
Personality research out there the only
personality science that actually backed
used by academic institutions is called
Ocean or the big five so this is
someone's openness so how adventurous
they are someone's conscientiousness how
organized they are someone's
extroversion that's the one that we all
know how how they like being around
people agreeableness so um how they work
on teams if they default to yes or
default to no we can talk about that one
if you want and then neuroticism which
is the which is the one that no one
wants to talk about um neuroticism is my
favorite it's how someone approaches
worry so that's sort of the first that
those are the easiest to solve and
actually research has found that I could
look in your wallet for example um or I
could open your uh bedside table and
probably solve a lot of your personality
traits wow I wish I could do that wallet
if you don't have it not on me what
would you be looking for cuz I would
give it to you in a heartbeat that would
be so fun so we are doing a study right
now actually at the science people where
I want people to take pictures of a
couple different assets in their in
their life one their car trunk and by
the way if anyone watching wants to send
me pictures of these things I'm happy to
them so their car trunk do you want me
to tell you what mine looks like yeah
it's empty only because my wife's
pressure is unending otherwise it would
be a filthy mess so that tells me that
you are a little higher in agreeableness
because you want to make your wife happy
you are so right I am like extremely
high in agreeableness absolutely and
that's so the fact that that was your I
didn't even mean to let that slip out by
the way I'm just trying to be honest
about the fact that it's cleaned out
because of my wife yes okay so that's so
that that because that's your motivation
right that was your motivation there um
so your trunk um your medicine cabinet
and doesn't have you can hide your
prescriptions I just want to see how
it's organized and how it's laid out
what's in there really have a medicine
cabinet but like stuffed in a drawer
stuffed in a drawer then maybe medium
and conscientiousness so
conscientiousness is how organize or how
much you like routine okay so it's like
um people who are really high in
conscien this is this is me I I find
making a to-do list like a sport you
know like I If I Was an Olympic Athlete
like I could make to-do list I could be
a champion in this I will put things on
my to-do list just for the pleasure of
checking them off nice someone's highing
we got someone over there I got you we
are the same yeah like alphabetizing
gives me an adrenaline rush wow you know
what I mean some people jump out of
airplanes you Al alphabetizing like like
you know a bunch of books by color and
by author name W my goodness so anyway
so that's high high in conscientious low
in conscientiousness means you're much
more easygoing you're much more
spontaneous you you feel that the
creative process is going with the flow
and actually routine sort of boxes you
in so if your if your medicine drawer
medicine cabinet is like a little bit
more halfhazard you don't really have a
system to it I would guess you're either
medium low and conscientiousness well
what interesting so I'm very low I'm
about as low as you can get on the
conscientiousness scale it is only
because my wife is muddling your ability
to read because she forces me to hide
within a drawer otherwise it would just
be left everywhere everywhere yeah okay
so low and conscientiousness um and then
uh I hate that name by by the way cuz
that one made me feel weird about being
low I feel like I'm a conscientious
person I think about other people and
what their needs are conscient it's
funny you mentioned that language so um
language is a serious issue so for
example the book has now gotten picked
up in 10 other languages and it's a
problem thank you but it's we're trying
to figure out words and for example in
Western cultures there is an ideal
personality type and you will notice
that every romantic comedy the woman is
the ideal personal type for women and
the man is usually the ideal personality
type for man so in Western cultures for
women it is high in conscientiousness so
that that's sort of her funny Quirk
she's really organized and doesn't like
to be spontaneous um a high in
agreeableness so yeah whatever you want
sweetie um either medium or high in
neuroticism so kind of a warrior but
it's cute and endearing um very
spontaneous and extroverted and bubbly
and um high in openness adventurous and
imaginative that's like the perfect
diode so the problem is is when you talk
about neuroticism neuroticism should not
be a negative word but it is considered
negative because then you're called a
type or controlling um and so it's funny
language is actually a huge issue so
conscientiousness does not mean that you
don't care about people right it just
means routine is not your your love like
like some people so anyway at at the lab
we're trying to figure out if we can
guess people's personality types or
solve their Matrix based on their
different assets in their house good so
far yeah so we're going to ask you for
that and then um the funny one is what's
on your walls so we've got the Michael
Jordan Flu Game okay which is probably
my most meaningful piece of art okay uh
it's all art so I guess we'll start with
that and then mostly movies so Matrix
has like three or four appearances in
the house um and then that's pretty much
it so what they say is this is a
research according to Sam Gosling he
wrote a great book called Snoop which
which is if you're a snooper this is the
book for you um so Sam Gosling found
that um High neurotics use more
motivational quotes So I am a high
neurotic I'm I'm definitely a warrior um
and by the way you know if you're high
neurotic or low neurotic if um you're
really good at Whata if scenarios so
high neurotics we love pros and cons
lists um we can think through every
worst case scenario ever um whereas low
neurotics they say things like it'll all
be fine which to alone erotic is like
the worst thing that you can say because
we believe that worrying is like an
investment account do you know what I
mean so like the more that I worry the
less likelihood it will happen um that
is interesting so motive so high netics
I love motivational quotes because it's
like a external regulator for their
internal World wow so I have a lot of
motivational quotes in my office space
you didn't have any which makes me think
that you're not very high neurotic I'm
super low neurotic but I'm insanely
uh chemically impacted by motivational
stuff so like I keep a list of quotes
that I find motivational or empowering
um I follow a bunch of Instagram
accounts that are all motivational your
list of quotes is it in a book is it
covered or is it for display it's in
Evernote okay so that means that you are
medium or low neurotic because High
neurotics we so can I get a little
sciencey okay so um neurotics carry a
special form of a certain Gene it's
called the serotonin transporter gene so
serotonin is a really important chemical
in our body it's what keeps us calm it's
what keeps us nice and stable so for
example if you're driving and all of a
sudden someone almost hits you they
don't hit you but they almost hit you
your adrenaline goes your cortisol goes
and you're like we almost got a car
oxident a lone neurotic like you will
begin to produce serotonin so your body
goes we're okay everything's fine and
then a few minutes later you're back to
your music everything's fine a Hine
neotic like me has a harder time
producing serotonin we have a longer
form of this transporter gene so we
produce less serotonin and more slowly
which means that my adrenaline and
cortisol are pumping for longer than
yours so if I'm in the car with you and
I'm like gosh that driver and you're
like well he didn't hit us we're good
now I'm still in Adrenaline and cortisol
but you're calm so what happens is is
that uh uh we as high neurotics are not
as good at self- soothing so we tend to
have reminders external reminders to
tell us to calm down whereas you as a
lonic you don't need to see it you can
look at it when you feel like it when
you're curious you pop up on Instagram
or Twitter when you feel like it whereas
I want to have them everywhere to remind
me I'm okay wow that that is really
interesting one of the things that I
found so awesome about your book was one
it was teaching me about myself but two
it was teaching me about Lisa so and in
in the relationship the ones where you
were like okay the this is probably
where you want to be in agreement where
you're both like the same and then these
are ones where you want to balance and
you had talked about neuroticism and
wanting to balance each other out and we
balance each other out so I'm really uh
low neurotic and she's very high
neurotic not in the Woody Ellen way but
like the way you're talking about it
right where she's just like I get it I
know what you're saying she'll like go
through like the thousand ways that this
could go wrong and just be like have a
much harder time like self- soothing and
when you said self soothing that's yeah
which really interesting so why it's
important to balance you don't have to
but there's actually studies that show
that certain personality traits are
better when they're matching versus
opposite so H neurotics get a bad rap
right everyone's like oh they're the
worrier they're the one who's always
like you know overthinking things but
you actually need to have both and the
reason for this is because your low
neurotic you Tom are wonderful in a
crisis so if there's something bad
happening or you need to get things done
you're the one with the level head you
know it's all going to be okay you can
stay study the course High neurotics
prevent crises from happening in the
first place and what's funny is so high
neurotics need external reminders to
keep them calm so we like to see our
to-do lists or our pros and con list we
like to have our Rock nearby us at our
side whereas lone neurotics like to have
external reminders of things they need
to take care of yes right because they
they don't have the internal alarm clock
that's constantly screaming at them I
joke that the piles scream at me you
know from the floor cuz I can I like
want to get them whereas you might not
see them I literally don't see don't see
them I know I keep my regular day-to-day
stuff in my travel case because I know
if I don't and I travel it'll never
it'll never make it I just won't
remember it yeah so so that's a
workaround for you and I think this is
what we're talking about here is knowing
how you are wired instead of fighting it
that's interesting because I'm a big
believer in fight anything that doesn't
work for you but you talk what if we
talk about optimize so I think I think
what I see a lot and this is with
personal development and I I'm a
self-help addict right like I love every
personal development book I love like
self-help and transformation the problem
is is that if we feel like we can change
everything we also might not optimize
for how we are naturally wired that's
interesting so the way that I like to
think about it is every step in the book
you know I teach a scientific principle
I tell a story teach a scientific
principle then I give you three steps
almost always step number one is you
right is figure out how you're wired
before you work on someone else it's
like in a in a flight they always tell
you put your oxygen mask on before you
fix someone else it's the same thing
like figure out your own wiring first so
you figured out that you will not
remember so by packing in that day pack
you've now taken out that worry fixed
that problem and now you don't have to
worry about it as opposed to trying to
take 15 different classes on how to be
more of a warrior right fair enough do
you know what I mean so I think that um
figuring out how your spouse is wired
and not trying to change them but rather
trying to set up systems in your home or
systems for your business partner or
things for your friends to know how
they're wired another example is um my
good friend Anna Lauren if she's
watching um so she is a warrior also um
but if I give her too many choices
she'll get Choice paralysis so instead
of trying to teach her how to make
choices for herself and you know go
through a whole you know what is paradox
of choice You Know lesson plan for her I
know that if I want to go out to dinner
with her I'm better off giving her one
time and only two restaurant
choices right and I know that she likes
to see the menu because she's High
conscientious so if I want to go to
dinner usually I will as an active
service say hey Al you want to go out
for dinner on Monday at 7:00 I think we
could do tai here's the menu link or we
could do sushi here's the menu link and
she will get back to me really fast if
not what happens is every day she goes
oh yeah but I'm not sure about this but
what about this restaurant and we end up
rushing on the plans last minute are you
is this a two-way street with your
friends like they know I mean obviously
they know you they know what you do so
they know they're in the Matrix some
they know they're in the Matrix yeah but
do you like walk them through like
here's how you rate on Ocean and do you
show the mess up yeah so my closest
friends first of all my closest friends
know to be to be my friend you you know
that every time you hang out with me it
might be an experiment so you have a
quote that I love I would rather live in
hard truth than ignorant Bliss yeah and
you're really into um radical honesty I
am how does that play out in your
marriage how does that play out in your
friendships yeah so in my marriage I got
very lucky I married the most honest man
I ever met so he is very direct already
so he actually has helped me in that
just very directness um with friends
it's hard I had to make the choice a
long time ago when I first started this
work especially with li detection Li
detection is a skill that is a blessing
and a curse a little bit um just because
you see inconvenient things right you
see things that you didn't expect to see
about yourself or no usually about other
people I think you see in the
personality Matrix you see things about
yourself you might not like as much um
but with lie detection you tend to see
things about other people that you might
not find as convenient so I is
convenient very nice it find is
convenient yes because what happens is
and this is what happened at the very
beginning of sort of honing the skill
and leveraging it is I started to see
friends who were not only lying to me
but lying to themselves and I had to
make a choice was I either going to have
fewer high quality friends or less
quality but more quantity friends and
this was right at that stage where I
also was trying to figure out what kind
of friendships that I want to have on
social media and it's the same I think
question that we all have to ask
ourselves I think of social media
friendships like cotton candy and I call
these cotton candy friendships so cotton
candy friendships are great these are
the people that you love seeing at a
party right you see them you're like oh
you do a squiggle you're so excited to
see them you know they're also the woo
girls you know woo you know you see them
and get excited you Tom's like I don't
know what that I have zero that's okay
I'm sure you've seen it before um and
they're and they're really fun to hang
out with there's not a lot of substance
there there's not a lot of nutrition you
wouldn't text them if you were going
through something hard you wouldn't you
know call them if something happened to
them but it's a fun exciting friendship
the thing is is you eventually need to
have a meal right like cotton candy is
okay every once in a while but if you
have too much of it your teeth begin to
like rot from it you know they ache from
the sugar um and they give you a sugar
headache and so I think that it's about
what are the friends that give you
nutrition like the brisket
friends and then which are those friends
that are kind of the surface ones and
that was a big decision I had to make
you've talked about breaking up with
friends like so how do you sculpt that
Garden of friendship it's so hard so I
think that adult friendships is you know
how when you're a teenager everyone's
talking about like bullying and cyber
bullying I think that as adults this
adult friendship issue is the next sort
of Frontier of talking about how do we
Court friends how do we build a
friendship when it's not romantic antic
how do we break up with a friendship
when it's been too long and the biggest
thing that happens with friendships is
they do go stale and that's a very weird
thing to say but there are people I'm
sure you can think of someone in your
life where every time their number pops
up on a text message you're like it's
been a while I better call them or you
know you see them out of convenience or
out of location and I think that those
are the kind of friendships that really
drain you there's actually a study that
was done on ambivalent relationships
yeah this is so interesting yeah I'm
thinking about ambivalence a lot so
toxic people we get it right we all
understand that we want to get rid of
toxic people that's more obvious the
real danger I think is ambivalent
relationships so these ambivalent
relationships are the people where
either you don't know how you stand with
them so you don't know if they like you
or not and they're also the people where
you don't know if you really enjoy
hanging out with them or not have you
ever had that yes and you're like is
this going to be fun was that fun is
this fun um and I think those are the
ones that take the more energy there are
also the more Dangerous Ones because
they tend to creep in and stay in so the
whole notion of Frenemies I find really
really intriguing and this is something
certainly that I've dealt with in my
life and it was weird to me how until I
read that that it didn't register why
that would be so
Insidious so what the study what the
science says they did a a research study
with police officers and they asked
police officers to identify the amount
of toxic people in their workplace and
what amount of ambivalent people and
they found that the police officers who
had more ambivalent relationships um
were sick more often had less happiness
at work and didn't like their job as
much than police officers who had toxic
people just weird just think about that
for a second and the reason for this is
because if you have a toxic person
boundaries are easy they ask you to go
out to lunch and you're like no thanks
right like you know it's a no thanks
whereas if an ambivalent person asks you
out to lunch or ask you to their
birthday party or you know ask you to
work on something it takes this mental
energy where you have this thing where
you're like like will it be good would I
rather eat alone at my desk or would I
rather have lunch with this person and
when it's not always easy that's an
incredible drain on our emotional energy
and if you are an introvert or an Ambert
an Ambert is someone who is kind of
splits between extroversion and
introversion your energy is finite and
our mental space is finite and this is
something that I did not realize until
much more recently I thought that mental
space was sort of endless right you
could learn forever um you could think
about things forever but actually we
only have a certain amount of mental
time every day and if we are dedicating
that to trying to figure out if someone
likes us or not which is a very
important thing we all like to be liked
whether we admit it or not that I think
is a waste of mental energy why would we
want to spend it towards that and that's
why I think ambivalent people are more
dangerous do you have a checklist cuz
I'm like thinking back to the people
that manag to become Frenemies in my own
life it's kind of scary how long it took
me to be able to put that label on them
to like sort of wake up to the fact that
either they always were or the
relationship had evolved to that like
years right years I know so I don't have
a checklist it's actually just one
simple question all right let's hear it
are you ever doubting that they're
really happy for you wow that cuts right
to the heart of it I mean that's it and
that that happens actually quite often
like there are these people who make
these very passive aggressive comments
where you're like was that nice or was
that mean if you're ever questioning
that that means they are not truly happy
for you or if you have a piece of really
good news they a really true good friend
will mirror and match that excitement
with you someone who's not as happy for
you will come in with dream killer
questions you know dream Killers oh yeah
yeah dream killer questions are when
they question your success they doubt
the success they think of all the
negatives and dream killers are not
always bad I I have dream killers in my
life and I call them when I need someone
to poke holes in a business idea right
like I'll pitch them because they're
great practice but I know that they are
not the people that I go to and I have
something I'm truly excited about
something that that's the only question
you have to ask yourself and it might be
An Inconvenient Truth like don't answer
it off the cuff like don't answer it
really quickly like try to think of all
the times in the last six months that
you've seen them and shared something
did you feel like they were as happy as
you were about your
happiness yeah and uh this is this is
one of those things that has made a a
big impact in my life because you can
very slowly especially in business find
yourself in a situation where you don't
know who to trust and I find and maybe
it's the psychic energy like you were
talking about emotional energy um for me
it it it became a question of emotional
safety where when I know you're my enemy
I don't feel emotionally vulnerable
oddly enough even though I know you may
actively be out to get me like I can
handle that yeah yeah it's when I'm like
giving you my neck if you will enough
and every now and then you actually take
a swipe at it and so it's like h that's
when you lose sleep yeah like yes
literally and you and you sit in bed and
you rerun all the things they've said or
you've said you worry about all the
things that could potentially happen you
know we talk about psychic energy I
actually think that we are this is going
to sound so weird I actually think that
we pick up on more chemically than we
realize yeah talk to me about that okay
so I I don't believe in psychics and I
don't believe in psychic energy but I do
believe that things happen beyond our
conscious awareness in this sense so
there was a study that was done that
looked at um fear so what they did is
they took um participants they had them
wear sweat pads absorbent sweat pads and
run on the treadmill and the they
collected sweat from these people
running on the treadmill then they had
participants wear sweat pads and jump
out of an airplane for a first time
skydiving experience okay so they had
sweat pads that were just treadmill
sweat pads and they had first skydiving
sweat pads okay same sweat but is it
really then they had participants in a
lab sit in an fmri machine their brain
was being scanned and
smell kind of gross both pads they did
not know what they were smelling they
had no idea what they were smelling they
found that when participants smelled the
fear sweat pads the skydiving sweat pads
their own fear response activated in
their
brain so that means that somehow I think
that we can smell emotions so if you are
with someone and they are either they
they do not mean well for you or they
are planning on taking a swipe at your
neck you somehow smell that threat and
even though consciously your brain is
going they didn't say anything they
didn't do anything their body language
is okay it seems all okay the other part
of your brain the animal part of your
brain which is firing in fear response
or threat response is going no watch out
and that's what keeps you up at night is
your conscious brain wrestling with the
unconscious part of your brain I think
that that's when we talk about being
psychic or having premonitions I think
that that's actually what's happening
we're we're smelling or picking up on
things that we don't even realize yeah
that's crazy and just for clarity sake
when I said psychic energy I did not
mean psychic like a psychic I also think
it's nuts okay um uh that's yeah that is
incredibly interesting I was going to
add the other aspect of this is um like
facial structure um so there was a part
in the book that had I'm obsessed with
this did were you able to sort of see
the faces were you able to see them yes
and I like to think that I'm like Jedi
level
slicing just from the amount of
interviewing that I've done like I'm
totally obsessed with this motion how
much and it scares me because I think I
actually have like a I definitely have
resting [ __ ] face so let's start with
that and then on top of that like when I
would explain to people uh like what
thin slicing is hey you're walking in a
dark alley and you turn around and you
see like this little old lady and she
seems so sweet like you thin slice
immediately not a threat my brain
immediately used the example but if you
turn around and see me you're going to
get freaked out and I thought I have
like a face that like I would thin slice
poorly like I would I would not thin
slice myself be like what a loving kind
individual okay okay so I don't think
you're wrong see what I'm saying and
you're like this is what you I'm so
sorry I know fair enough I'm not
Inconvenient Truth but let me explain
why why please okay so um there is some
evidence and again we there's a lot of
research needs to be on this but I find
it fascinating about in the womb babies
are exposed to Mother's hormones so that
could be testosterone that could be
estrogen that could be any any different
VAR of things and those change or turn
on different genes in the baby so for
example if a baby was exposed to a lot
of testosterone prenatally they're going
to De develop more masculinized feature
both men and women so we know a face is
very masculine if they have a a very
very square jaw if they have the
presence of stubble if they have flat
eyebrows and or slightly hooded eyebrows
that's your face okay okay sounds
wonderful no no no it's it's a it's a
good thing it's a good thing because
it's a very masculinized face so what
you that is 100% right so in the book I
have um computer Graphics of incompetent
faces to competent faces dominant fa not
dominant faces to dominant um not
competent to competent and then um uh I
think it's trustworthy not trustworthy
trustworthy so you fall very high on the
dominance scale so if someone turned
around and you were in a in a in a back
alley you look very masculinized which
means that you have a lot of
testosterone and typically men with more
testosterone are going to be you know
more powerful have shorter temper all
these things so it's about the shape of
your jaw it's about the hooding of your
eyebrows um that and then the presence
of subl and you wear stubble yeah yeah
so this is I think this is a good thing
I think this is a good thing does it
help that if the little old lady turns
around and and I actually worry about it
like I distance my like if I find myself
and I know this woman is going to have a
heart attack she turns around like so
I'll start slowing down or I'll walk
like over to the side and fast so she
can see hi yeah yeah I try to do my
neutral goofy face which let me see
it how is it it's like the arched
eyebrows like I try to like half smile
and I feel like such a dumbass but I'm
like I have seenot so I used to do
speech and debate in high school yeah
and one time like I crushed it I was so
excited and I got the review back and it
was like uh dude what is wrong try not
to look so angry and I was like what
like I literally and so I readed some
something they're like yeah dude can you
like put your head down and then look up
you look like a serial killer and I was
like what so literally I go I go in the
bathroom I tilt my head down and I look
up no yeah oh my
God I was like what the hell wait do
that to a camera cuz that is it that
is yeah that's when I realized yeah
that's intense I'm like that's fine yeah
so yeah and but now you know why right
you know it's the shape of your jaw and
your face so you what you did is perfect
you optimized how you were naturally
wire right okay right so it's so show me
your um what did you call it your goofy
silly face my goofy neutral face can I
see your face
again okay okay perfect okay can I
explain why this works from a scientific
perspective okay so when we raise our
eyebrows up it is the universal sign of
Interest or engagement for example if I
were in a bar and go you would know what
I meant if I were to be listening it be
like oh you would know that means I'm
like literally trying to see more right
it's like the invocation of that so with
your eyebrows up it changes the shape of
that hooded look right so when you're
like this this is a very high
testosterone when your when your
eyebrows are hooded so when you push
them up not only does it show openness
engagement curiosity say hi it also
takes away the hooding and then you also
slightly opened your mouth a little bit
that also softens your jaw so in a way
that takes your face and just makes it
more open I think that this is something
I think this is actually a very good
thing because I think it's part of the
reasons why you are so successful wow we
like people who are very powerful who
have high testosterone we like it for
both men and women so your look shows
intensity it shows strength it shows
power so never be angry at how you are
wired your genetics how your face looks
because that is I think a huge
contributor to your success I feel that
way with everyone we all have things
about our face about our personality
about our body about that we don't like
but I think that if we can frame it as
this has been an aspect or it can be an
aspect of our success that's extremely
important for example I also have
resting [ __ ] face shall we critique
should I critique
I was critiquing you so I should
critique myself as well so I have
resting [ __ ] face and the reason for
this is because my features angled
downwards so um at rest this is me at
rest right and I just look like terrible
right I'm just like oh like I'm I'm
bored I'm upset and that is because my
lips when I'm when they're at rest angle
slightly downwards and my eyes also
angle slightly downwards even if I'm
totally neutral they angle down so I
know that I can look very very serious
that has also helped me because I am a
science researcher right like it's very
important for me to look like I am
taking things seriously as I am so when
I want to be more on or engaged you'll
notice that I actually do my makeup a
very specific way I don't know if you
can see my makeup yeah angle so I angle
up um and I also um put my uh Shadow a
little bit above my brow bone a little
bit above my um eye to bring my eyes up
that is because I know that's going to
make me look a little happier a little
less sad a little less intense so this
is something that I know about myself
but I don't think that's a bad thing
it's just something that I know I have
to counteract a little bit all right so
I want to go back to radical honesty so
what does that look like like what are
you actually saying to your friends in
particular so this means that instead of
making up an excuse I will just tell
them the real reason I don't want to do
something so for example um a good
friend of mine was like um hey I'm I
have this networking event that um I'm
throwing it's with a bunch of women in
Oregon I live in Portland um you should
definitely come and do like a little
speaking thing and it would be great
instead of me saying oh I'm really busy
or I I don't really I I don't have time
for it right now I was like hey I do
terribly at really big loud networking
events you don't want me there like I
get really anxious like it's really hard
for me is there any way that we could do
a lunch in instead where we're like
around a table where we can like talk
sort of in a more quiet environment so
instead of making up some excuse I
actually will tell them the real reason
why I do or don't want to do something
and then we try to work around it and
what does that look like at work at work
oh
so um we have a wonderful team so we're
about six people in our lab and then we
have 120 science people trainers so our
trainers are body language trainers and
they do my curriculum in their different
cities around the world so basically
what this means is um we have a very
direct task management system so I think
that is incredibly important with your
team to a know their personality Matrix
so I know everyone on my team their
personality Matrix and also how they
like to receive feedback and how they
like to brainstorm so for example let's
say that I have an idea and I want to do
a big brainstorming session I like to
brainstorm out loud but I know that two
of my team members do not so they might
say to me if we're in a big
brainstorming session and I'm like any
ideas any ideas and it's like crickets
they would say to me and they would have
complete permission to do so hey Vanessa
um would there be any way that you could
write down these ideas give us about a
week to kind of prepare something and
then we could get back together next
Friday I'm not really ready to
brainstorm right now instead of having a
really lame drawn out 50-minute session
where no one's throwing around any ideas
so it's a much faster way to um speak to
our natural orientations uh in the
workplace or on our team talk to me
about H identifying primary values and
what they are so that you know how to
better deal with people yeah so I I was
always fascinated by motivation in the
workplace especially how do you motivate
a partner how do you motivate a
colleague how do you um appeal to their
interests I talk about this in the book
a little bit um I always thought that
with colleag Coles the biggest
motivation was money right salary perks
bonuses I thought that was sort of Mo
most the reason why you work you
hopefully work for a little bit of
passion as well but you're getting sort
of you're trying to pay the bills and so
I had one of my employees who was doing
an amazing job and I was like you know
what I'm going to give her a raise and a
bonus she's been doing such a good job
so I it was I had to move around some
things budget wise but I really wanted
to show her how appreciative I was we
get together and um I say I I'm so
excited I me would love to give you a
raise and a bonus and she was like
thanks and I was like that's it that's
that's all and then I discovered This
research on resource Theory and so
resource Theory says that every
interaction every relationship is a
transaction I know that sounds really
terrible but actually it's a very honest
very radically honest way of think of
looking at relationships and there are
six different resources that we all give
and take these are different than the
Love Languages this is resources one of
them is money and that's the one that we
think about a lot we talk about it a lot
but what I found out as this particular
employee her primary value was actually
status how did you find that out so when
I when I realized she was sort of she
had kind of like a lackluster response
she was like literally you do the thing
lack luster response you're feeling a
little I feel I feel terrible I actually
feel terrible because I went out of the
way to make budget for her and I also
really wanted to thank her for her
amazing work and so when she was like
not happy I was like but you had to read
through not the lie but like she was
saying thank you yay negative non-verbal
right I was seeing so when we're talking
about non-verbal there's either micro U
micro advantages or micro negatives
micro advantages micro advantages or
micro negatives so give me an example
yeah so like a micro Advantage is um if
you ask a good question I would be like
nodding at you I'd like smile I'd be
like oh that's great I'd widen my
eyebrows those are all micro advantages
I'm giving you to say I love that
question okay a micro negative this is
what you probably pick up on without
realizing it are all the things people
do when they don't like a question so
maybe they lean back maybe they make a
right face um maybe they pinch their
eyebrows together maybe they crinkle
their nose up at you they might turn
their head away and uh bite their nails
those are all micro negatives so I
noticed that she wasn't showing any
micro advantages and a couple of micro
negatives which is the exact opposite of
what you would expect if you just told
someone that they got a raise so I felt
terrible I felt terrible also cuz I was
worried that she was unhappy and did you
notice it right there in the moment
right there and then right in the moment
yeah and now that I hopefully just
taught that to you guys I'm very curious
if you now start seeing them right away
the nice thing about body language is it
doesn't take a long time once you know
what to look for you see it all the time
so I noticed it right away and I was
like oh okay well um you know it will be
in your next month's paycheck and you
know I'm just so grateful thank you so
much for all your hard work I've really
appreciated your work and she's like oh
yeah it was my pleasure I love the
science people okay we're good but I
felt terrible because I was was worried
that she didn't like her job cuz I was
like what else could be the reason what
else could be the reason I was like oh
my God she's thinking about quitting my
my neuroticism went crazy my neuroticism
was like she's going to quit she hates
me she hates science people right like I
went all the way down that route and so
when I stumbled upon this study that
maybe I was looking into motivation I
was like reading a white paper on
employee engagement and employee
motivation because I was worried about
losing her I found this resource Theory
and I was like wait a minute status and
I started to think back to the times
when she showed a lot of micro
advantages and one of the times was when
we created an about our team page and I
put pictures of each person on the page
she was so excited she was like oh I'm
going to go get a new h