Kind: captions
Language: en
the truth is that you are going to
suffer but the way to deal with
suffering is accepting that suffering
and then letting it sort of have it say
and then moving on from that everybody
welcome to impact really you're here my
friends because you believe that human
potential is nearly limitless but you
know that having potential is not the
same as actually doing something with it
so our goal with this show and company
is to introduce you to the people and
ideas that will help you actually
execute on your dreams okay today's
guest is sold over three million copies
of his books and is one of only three
authors ever to have three books
simultaneously on the New York Times
nonfiction bestseller list he's also the
first author to take a book from blog to
bestseller and his website was
generating millions of views long before
that was the thing he was nominated to
Time Magazine's 100 most influential
lists in 2009 unsurprisingly as he
appeared on the New York Times
bestseller list for an astonishing six
consecutive years but with titles like I
hope they serve beer in hell and
[ __ ] finished first his astonishing
success baffled many but not Future New
York Times bestselling author Ryan
holiday working side by side with him
holiday quickly realized that today's
guest was a brash and brilliant marketer
as well as a raw and authentic author
holiday would later detail many of the
techniques at today's guests pioneered
in his book trust me I'm lying while
he'll tell you that he's just a normal
guy who's lucked into much of his
success his resume tells a slightly
different story he graduated college in
just three years with the highest
possible honors went to Duke Law School
on an academic scholarship and has even
had a movie made about his life in 2012
however he announced that he was going
to be retiring from the genre of
nonfiction he'd helped pioneer called
frat tire he'd evolved as a person and
wanted to begin a new journey that
journey saw him embark on psychotherapy
and evolved into a devoted family man
and dyed-in-the-wool entrepreneur
dedicated to using commerce to help
other people solve their problems from
that his wildly successful company book
in a box was born which even in its
relative infancy
already done eight figures in revenue so
please help me in welcoming the man who
turned his drunken exploits into a
publishing Empire that has now helped
hundreds of people become published
authors and share their wisdom
the former [ __ ] who's still finishing
first Tucker max thank you so much for
coming on the show
my wife sounds pretty cool do you put it
that way no they're being like that's
some Dunson baller stuff that's pretty
cool yeah you never think about it on a
day-to-day basis I suppose yeah you
don't when you're interviewing somebody
though you're when I'm researching them
anyway their whole life collapses down
to like this basically 12-hour timeline
for me where I get a go on the full
journey seeing you cuz I mean luckily
all this stuff got captured on film so
you see you as a 20-something yeah being
interviewed by the news and people being
somewhat antagonistic and you be you
know quite flippant and very much the
man of your books and then watching you
go through the evolution they're really
really fascinating I haven't even done
that you can do it it's it's pretty
haven't gone back and looked at any of
the media especially like early on I
think probably because the few times
I've done that I'm so mortifyingly
embarrassed I'm like what are you
thinking not even like with the attitude
it's like if you're gonna have that
attitude at least do it right as someone
on the outside I'm really glad that your
twenties were captured so vividly but
I'm really grateful that mine weren't so
like it yeah it would be pretty tough to
look back on this yeah one of the things
I want to talk to you about is
reinvention like you you have in full
public view which I think most people
get trapped by and they're never able to
get out and I remember the first time I
met you which I think the first time we
shared the same physical space was at
Hustle Khan and I had no idea like what
to expect right so it was really because
I had read
I hope they serve beer in hell and so
that that's sort of my snapshot and then
fast-forward you know however many years
later decade later yeah and we meet and
so it's really
interesting that you were so successful
at getting out of that persona and
establishing yourself anew yeah what was
that process like so well the first
thing was everyone and I understand why
everyone thinks this and they say it
they asked me well it's funny use the
word persona most people use the word
brand and what they mean is how did you
change from this persona or brand to
this one meaning like how did you change
the perception of you right and I'm not
trying to put words in your mouth but
when most people lost this question
that's what they mean that's exactly
what I mean right so my answer is always
the same is that it's not you can't
think of it like perception right I
never I never thought to myself okay I'm
projecting this now I want to project
something else but there's this hidden
self that's different one of the reasons
I think I was so successful almost in
spite of myself early on is because I
didn't create a like a projected front
the guy that I wrote about the guy that
that showed up on those in those
interviews that was flippant that all
that that was really pretty much exactly
who I was most people most people in the
public eye you know this now you've been
in the public eye for long enough you've
met enough famous people or like you
you're on stage with them when you meet
them in media and then you get the green
room when they're like something you
know different right like I know a lot
of the same people and a lot of those
people for better or worse are different
in private they are in public I was just
never the case for me so for me the
change was not about how do I change my
persona it was how do I change myself
which is just a totally different thing
and as I grew and changed and developed
as a man and matured it was like I left
my my cult brand behind but it wasn't
leaving a brand behind it was like I
don't want to drink and hook up and act
stupid and party anymore like that was
cool in my 20s and early 30s and I'm
done with it and I want to change and it
was like I almost couldn't write so I
had to that's why I had to like publicly
retire from writing this stuff and I had
to cut all of that off and
move on because to answer your question
it wasn't like how do I change
perception how do I change brand it was
how do I change my honest authentic self
and then go in a fundamentally different
direction that was hard to do that that
that's the prostitute man that was like
so the first thing I had to do was I had
to accept that this was something I
wanted right cuz look it's not obvious
that I ever had to change like I was
doing pretty well I was selling a lot of
books I was making money I was famous
enough like I had plenty of girls like I
had everything that at 19 if you told me
like I was gonna have half of what I had
I would have [ __ ] my pants an excitement
I'm like are you kidding this is coming
for me this is amazing and then I got it
and it was like it's not that it was bad
because it wasn't it was fun and there
was a lot of good stuff here's the thing
people who go and I say this being as a
person who did it
someone who goes intentionally looking
for fame which I did
they're always part of the reason
they're doing it is to fill a hole in
their soul some sort of hole right and
and I mean I was definitely it's true of
me and then once you get that Fame you
realize as awesome as it may be it
doesn't fill the hole right and so then
and everyone famous in any way shape or
form it that intentionally went to go
get Fame right not someone who like is
doing work on their own and all of a
sudden that you know like the world sees
them talk about people who go you go to
Hollywood you go to New York I'm gonna
be famous then you well if you achieve
it then you have that you you have that
moment of truth where you realize I got
everything I wanted or more and I'm
still lonely and I'm happy or whatever
it is you're trying to compensate for
and you gotta have that moment of truth
and ask yourself okay what do I do now
you know like do I lie to myself and
tell me that this fantasy that I created
in my head is everything that I wanted
when it's not or do I start looking for
the truth and so in my case I lied to
myself for a long time right
and it's easy to man when you're selling
books and and people want to interview
you and girls come like want to hook up
with you and they don't even know you
it's like what is this magical world of
celebrity this is incredible right and
it's not like I was that famous but I
was like famous enough where I
understood what it was like and um but
then it's like you go through it enough
and you realize like oh wow this is
hollow and empty and it doesn't really
mean anything it's just it's like the
trappings of success and so it took me
about three four or five years to come
to terms with that that like the thing
that I thought would make my life
perfect didn't and then it culminated
with a movie that was made about my
first book and like seeing that kind of
like not do well which is so it dude
think about how crazy this is
this is the most first world which white
person problem there was a movie made
about my life that didn't do 50 or 100
million dollars of the box office and it
was a crushing blow to me right like
that
like which at the time was truly
crushing but if you think about that on
the span of human history in human
suffering is like what the [ __ ] is wrong
with you dude like that's what crushed
you but it did because that's just the
way our brains work and so it kind of
culminated with that and so then I had
to like really that becomes like a
turning point for yeah it really was
affect I'll dive in I'll really tell you
like there was actually a very specific
moment I was in a hotel room and it was
the the day before the movie was
launching or the day it launched and we
got like the numbers back and you know
you know immediately right like and we
knew that like you know it's gonna do
fine I think it did like a million two
million three million the box-office
whatever and they did really well on DVD
but like I was expecting this to be like
the next you know what in Crashers or
anything something like that and so um I
was in my hotel room and dude it was I
mean I wept a
like I cried and like by myself like
didn't want anyone around no girls
nothing and I wept and I cried and it
was like it was it was an ego cracking
soul-crushing moment for me as
ridiculous as it sounds it was and then
from there I had to accept okay I got
all this Fame and all this stuff I
thought I wanted and it didn't make me
happy it didn't fill the hole in my soul
and and if I really want to get to the
the sort of the peak of the mountain
I've got to realize I'm on the wrong
mountain like I'm on the peak of this
mountain I'm trying to get the peak of
this mountain but they're different
mountains and so I had to go down and up
and so then that from there basically I
realized the first thing was I had to
look honestly myself right like what why
did the movie fail because I had an
amazing book we had an amazing script
this should have worked and of course I
started doing was that what does
everyone do right when something fails
you blame everybody else so at least I
did I blame the director I blame the
producers I blank and listen they were
they made mistakes but then at the end
of the day I picked the director I
picked the producers and I created a lot
of issues and all the materials their
effort to do well and it didn't and it
was my fault and that was a man that was
a hard toward to swallow dude it was bad
because like mehar distill eyes when you
don't succeed it's because of your own
it's not even like I made it I gambled
on something I lost this should have
worked
it should there's no reason it shouldn't
have and and I just it was my own fault
and so then I had to really start down
that path of recognizing all the truths
in my life that I was ignoring and I was
avoiding and they were painful and awful
and I got pretty far along that path by
myself but then I kind of reached a sort
of an impasse and so then I realized I
needed someone to help me and there's a
lot of ways to get help
I picked like therapy talk therapy
there's a lot of different types of talk
therapy I ended up
with psychoanalysis which is just a very
specific type of it and I spent four
years in analysis going four days a week
what was motivating that was it a
positive feeling of I have the sense
that I can get better or was it like
this hurts so much I just need something
it was it was that's a great question
it was it was not self-improvement
in the sense of like you know like I'm
gonna go like lift and work out and get
in shape like I love doing that but that
provides a pretty immediate reward it's
pretty straight forward this was much
more about unpacking painful trauma it's
not like I was just in misery every day
cuz I wasn't man like I had money it's
not like the movie failed and like I was
destitute right like I had money like I
still had friends I was in shape I was
still young like I'm still young like I
like everything was great objectively in
my life like there was like I said it
was a total rich white person problems
like I hadn't there was nothing to be
sad about so really what it was for me
was understanding that like I had to go
back to why was I looking for fame right
like why why was I trying to fill this
hole what made this hole right and he
goes back to me for a lot of I had
parents who just weren't very good at
being parents like they were perfectly
nice people like it's not no one beat me
as a kid no one hit me or anything
terrible like that right like like thank
God but I just had parents who were like
I archetypical iconic baby boomers they
just didn't care about anyone but
themselves their whole life was about
like them and they had a kid which is
fine if you don't have a kid right but
they had a kid and so I grew up sort of
lonely and ignored but in like the most
Western sort of rich middle class way
you know it's never hungry I had nice
stuff I went to good schools it was just
like I just they just weren't good to
being parents they were perfectly fine
caretakers and humans
and so I just missed a lot emotionally
and so you know I mean one way to deal
with trauma is promiscuity and I don't
just mean sexual anything you do
anything to an extreme whether it's
gambling sex working out achievement
like a lot of the entrepreneurs I know
and probably you do too
I'm convinced the reason that they are
so successful is because they are it's
not just they want to succeed they're
just driven beyond belief and it's
because that's their way of sort of
filling their hole the hole in their
soul which is at least is productive
like that's great and I picked a path
that you know a lot of people pick I
drank hooked up I didn't really even go
that far I just wrote about the only
reason people know me about this is just
because I wrote about it in a funny way
and then I kind of took off and it led
me to success and then I kind of went a
little excess but if you asked me at 26
I'm like no no no my parents you know
they were fine everything's great I'm
perfectly happy are you kidding
everything's wonderful it's not true
what some wasn't true and I just never
thought about my emotions I never really
connected with them I had never really I
just had never really had those
conversations with myself or with
anybody else really and so part of
therapy was understanding first
recognizing the pain was there then it
was accepting that it actually existed
right which is hard like you think well
if you recognize it you accept it but no
no like I was in denial for a lot oh
well I'm not yeah all the stories like
you tell yourself oh well but other
people have it worse they do doesn't
mean like that my stuff doesn't deeply
impact me or you know it wasn't that bad
it may not have been it doesn't mean
it's not having an impact I mean all the
sort of that sort of stuff so I then had
to accept all this then I had to give
myself space to really investigate like
okay like what am I feeling like so
really kind of connecting my thoughts to
my emotions which sounds like really
basic and I don't know I it just wasn't
there I think most people aren't in that
presence of this is so useful right and
I don't know if you have a sense that
that this is so unique to you'd never be
been
but like I get this question over and
over and over like no I'm having this on
how to become aware yeah what they're
going through no I'll talk about it if
you if you're yeah listen I'll talk
about it all right so I mean all I can
do is tell you what I did right like I'm
not gonna say Rimmel here's the 8 ways
to do it and I don't know I can only
know my path so for me like that's why I
picked psychoanalysis because it's it's
intense you were going four days a week
for an hour day right so for four years
I did this and what you're doing when
you go is it's not like it's not a good
analyst and I had a pretty good analyst
is very it's kind of like the classic
you know image of like you know laying
on the sofa and the analyst is kind of
behind you it's like that it's mainly
you're talking and then about what
you're thinking what you're feeling and
then they essentially do their best to
present basically a mirror to you right
so they ask questions or they point
things out and they never like say what
you're doing this wrong almost never
give advice they never tell you what's
right or wrong they're definitely not
judgmental it's very accepting it's very
like they care it's very caring but it's
also like very reflective right like
it's very much like um kind of like the
you know like in return Empire Strikes
Back we're like Luke goes to see Yoda
and then he's like you know he has to go
in that cave where it's like he's like
what's in there it's like whatever you
bring in there is what's in there right
he sees Darth Vader and he's like got
freaked out and it's like that's what
analysis is it's whatever you bring in I
love that scene in Star Wars because
many cuts Vader's mask off it reveals
himself yeah it is it's a cool moment so
um so for me what my my analysis was
very much about I mean I was just in
denial for a long time about like it's
not that I denied that my parents were
like I intellectually understood I saw
them clearly for who they were
I didn't connect to the emotion of it
right like I refused to accept that I
was scared or lonely or sad I mean I
even in luck
but emotionally I wouldn't connect with
that right the difference between me now
and me let's say ten years ago in this
realm is that now the emotions don't go
away right so anyone who tells you that
they have a way for you to control your
emotions or get rid of your emotions is
either lying to themselves or lying to
you and trying to sell you something so
it's not a this [ __ ] goes away it's that
now I recognize it like like I recognize
the feeling I accept that it's there and
I can like not let it overwhelm me or
let it control me without understanding
for most people the only way you can get
past this stuff is to bring it out let
it let it have its voice accept it and
then you know like see okay I like I
know I think I'm skipping ahead a little
on your questions but this ties directly
into something in my life now that I'm a
father right I have a three-year-old son
Bishop and this happened like four
months ago I'll never forget it so
something like Bishop knocked over a
glass or something whatever he spilled
something he's three and and I kind of
like you know I was having a bad day and
I was in a bad mood I kind of snapped
I'm like Bishop what do you why did you
do that what are you doing be careful
like really almost exactly like that
tenor right and like I didn't it didn't
even occur to me that I was snapping or
being mean or whatever I was just like
talking yeah yeah what I'm reacting but
I looked at his face and that kid's face
man it looked like I had stabbed him in
the chest with a knife like he was
crestfallen like broken I remember
looking right at him and and understand
in a flash understanding I had done to
him what my dad did to me and at that
moment I had a choice to make about the
type of man let's have a father I was
gonna be like either I could rash oh
well you know like he deserved it or I
needed he needs a toughen up or I could
rationalize this or I could accept that
I had hurt this kid my son and I had
done it unintentionally tential it
doesn't matter I had done it and that I
had to accept it and then deal with it
right deal with the fact that I had done
and and of course thank God I went
through therapy right because I was able
to see it in the moment and understand
in the moment what I had done and accept
it and then deal with it and dealing
with it is actually pretty easy if
you'll accept that right but it was
really painful I'm like it's still
painful to think about the fact that I
did like I did it there's no way to undo
this but you know I picked them up I
said all buddy come here are you are you
sad and it's like yeah I'm like okay why
are you sad and he's like you know I
don't know he's sad Mike are you sad cuz
Daddy yelled at you he's like yeah I'm
like okay well you know daddies make
mistakes too daddy shouldn't you know
should he know what daddy makes mistakes
and what do we do when we make mistakes
we say we're sorry and we cleaned it up
like okay what daddy's saying sorry to
you okay cuz daddy shouldn't you know
daddy made a mistake and daddy sorry so
let's give me a hug and now clean it up
right and like I don't know like that
was to me like if there's a happy ending
that's a happy ending right that's what
therapy taught me and if you had to boil
down so that particular thing to me from
the outside it sounds like ownership is
is the key their ownership of yourself
and your emotions and your a desire to
seek and to feel the painful truth not
just intellectually recognize the truth
in therapy is about connecting with the
emotions you are running from and
feeling them no matter how painful or
awful they are because almost certainly
they're awful painful to you otherwise
you wouldn't want from them like you
know run from happiness maybe it's not
like Oh remember that great memory no no
put that away hide that don't no that's
not the problem it's the painful stuff
you know yeah yes I totally get that and
the fascinating thing to me is in my own
life the thing that has become the most
powerful thing for me isn't isn't maybe
internalizing or connecting to my
emotions maybe that wasn't the problem
that I had and it's kind of interesting
seeing you from the outside because
there have been times in my life where I
almost wish that I was a little less
connected to my emotion but I see now
though that also leads to some we're not
very effective but the thing for me that
was really powerful was learning to take
responsibility for everything that I did
and that that was where my entire life
change and the most intentionally
provocative but the most unintentionally
controversial thing I've ever said is
around the notion of taking ownership
and how people really get riled up now
maybe I pushed it too far but I used to
one of the first blog articles I wrote
was about I if I got hit by a drunk
driver I would blame myself and people
just went [ __ ] ballistic like him
sooo with that title I can see why so
the take-home messages I could have made
different decisions that would have had
a different outcome so it doesn't mean
that I wasn't victimized but being a
victim moving forward is a choice that
that I have to make yeah and once and
and I wrote it understand I wrote it
from a place of like I'm giving you the
best gift I know how to give you in fact
one of the questions I was trying to
formulate in my head is like if you were
gonna take the gestalt of psychotherapy
and hand it to Bishop and like one just
one key thing to take away like what
would that be and and I do want the
answer that question and so writing that
article is missing the single most
important thing I've learned in my life
right is that if you get hit by a drunk
driver as unfair as it is cosmically as
much as it isn't your fault from anyone
else's perspective the gift I'm gonna
give you is if you're willing to say I
could have made a different choice and
gotten a different outcome everything in
your life will change right and it's
very hard because then you take the
ownership of other than happens going
forward I get it and I get your point I
can see how someone misinterpret that
but your the point is rock-solid and
amazing yes own everything in your life
that you have control over you don't
have control over drunk driver but you
have control over everything that
happens after that
yeah [ __ ] yeah oh hell yeah yeah like
for me it was yeah like I've never had
problems taking ownership over my life
I've had problems I think and this might
be a different version of taking
ownership over your life I've had
problems recognizing painful unpleasant
truths which i think is just actually us
if you think about it's a subset of
taking ownership over your life you know
like the movie think it's a great
example it took me six months to a year
to fully accept it clear as day it was
my fault it's not like this is like some
- Katie you know multi-level thing where
like I had to unpack this mystery it was
clear everyone involved with the movie
could be like oh dude you totally [ __ ]
this up without I'm quiet but it took me
a year about a year to fully emotionally
own that was there a voice in your head
that was like look [ __ ] you know
this was you know no I don't think so
because that's one of the downsides of
being and like this is a sound like a
ridiculous humblebrag it kind of is but
one of the downsides of being smart is
that it's really easy to rationalize you
know and I'm really good at
rationalizing so I'm really good at
creating narratives that that really are
true in a way but they hide an
underlying truth my analysts would
always say I would be you know 20
minutes down the path of this amazing
story that was essentially rationalizing
or justifying something and she would
look at me and she would say the best
defenses are true because because I like
what I would be saying like I could tell
you a story right now that is factually
correct about the movie that would place
all the blame off of me but the
underlying truth is that it's my fault
right so yeah I think there different
ways to saying the same thing I would
totally 100% agree it that was the last
I'd always done a good job
owning my life in terms of taking action
I think I've done a very poor job owning
responsibility emotional responsibility
especially for the way I've made other
people feel a lot of times I didn't I
did a terrible job at that and I don't
think it was that I didn't care it was
that I was so disconnected from my own
emotions it was like how the hell am I
gonna feel hers or his or yours like it
doesn't even occur to you that that's a
thing like why would they yelling bother
you doesn't bother me it's well dude not
everyone's like you like it took it took
me a long time to really internalize
that on an emotional level yeah god I
hope people see this interview in the
context of how brash and successful by
the way you were early in your career
and how different you feel now like the
interviews that you did are the books
that you wrote which were all nonfiction
by the way oh of course so it is really
really fascinating and especially for me
because
over such a collapse time period it's
like I really got to go in that massive
swing in this really finite period of
time it's been really really interesting
all right I do want to get the answer
the question if you had to wrap up yeah
you're like big takeaway from
psychotherapy for Bishop
what's that breakthrough you hope you
never need psychotherapy for yeah so
right if he needs if you need a second
othera P then I failed as a dad right I
mean he'll he's gonna experience traumas
in his life but I'm just hoping they're
not in the core family
the takeaway of psychotherapy is the
exact same takeaway of Buddhism they
just are 180-degree diametrically
opposed ways to get at the same truth
and the truth is the truth is that you
are going to suffer but the way to deal
with suffering is accepting that
suffering and then recognizing that it
is suffering accepting it and then
letting it sort of have it say and then
moving on from that right so to really
condense that I would say the what I
would tell him this is what I try to do
with him and and my daughter Vaughn is
we help them connect what they're
thinking to how they're feeling right
because I think so many people
disconnect those things and and that
that's why I like the example I gave you
with Bishop like three or three years
old they feel but they don't know how to
articulate their feelings so I spent a
lot of time with him helping him
understand what he feels you know not
telling him what he feels like I'll give
you an example
every kid falls down they hurt
themselves right and I learned this at
sort of indirectly an analysis or early
on my wife would like oh you're okay
you're okay cuz ever instinct is like
you know motherly once the pain to go
away I said no no stop doing that don't
do that because what you're doing is
you're actually confusing him you're
negating his feelings because he fell
down he skinned his knee he hurts and
you saying you're okay is a very
confusing thing because it's like I'm
saying to my wife you're the center of
his universe for his mom so the better
thing did say is hey how are you okay
and then let him tell you no I'm not
okay or yes I am okay right that's a
great example of something I learned in
analysis is just under
standing what am I feeling and then
connecting it to what am i what I'm
thinking I almost think of it like two
different parts of my brain the feeling
part in the thinking part because
actually literally you know there's
three different parts right but you
really literally do have like two
different parts to your brain and it's
not quite
biologically neurologically accurate to
say thinking is only in one part I'm
feeling is only in another but if you
but roughly you're close enough
dude I'll give you a good example coming
in here I was actually a little bit
nervous for this interview the weird
thing is it's like because I've seen a
bunch of your your episodes and you get
great stuff out of people like Simon's
Simon's Simon cynics good friend of mine
and he like his like has been viewed
like a couple hundred million times
right right exactly so I'm showing up
like man I can't I can't screw the pooch
on this like I got a really show up and
do a good job but it didn't freak me out
because like I reckon it's standing
right there 20 minutes ago I recognized
okay like I got chills it's not cold in
here I'm a little bit nervous no big
deal I've done this before I can talk
about this stuff I just I recognise the
anxiety I accepted it and then actually
another technique I use that reframe it
is like okay I'm gonna reframe it as
excitement and energy and I'm gonna use
it to really dig deep and do like a
great interview but like yeah like
that's that's what I would tell him to
take away and that's what I try to teach
him is thinking is awesome but emotions
are kind of what drive you and you've
got to connect those to really kind of
have a happy successful life that's a
pretty damn good takeaway I want to go
back to something you said you said I'm
on this mountain I'm at the peak of this
mountain and I had to really realize
that I'm actually on the peak of the
wrong mountain and so I had to go down
before I could go back what what was
that process like and then how did you
recognize that you wanted something new
and what were you telling yourself as
you knew I'm gonna have to go down first
yeah it sucked Zeus good luck because
you work so hard and you think this is
the mountain you're trying to climb and
you climb it man like
climb the mountain right like I I was
there and then I kind of looked around
and I realized I wasn't happy I didn't
really have what I wanted I had what I
thought I wanted to be happy right I had
like I I'd set the X on the map and I
got there and I actually did better than
I thought I needed to be to have
everything right everything I wanted I
did even better like I would have been
happy you know selling half a million
books right and be having one year on
the bestseller list I'm way past that
and so like it was it ties in to what
you mentioned earlier the one thing that
I I think I do better than most people
if I had to attribute my success to one
thing other than hard work which is you
can't succeed without hard work that's
just table stakes but one thing I think
I do better than most people even
successful people is I'm always willing
to face the truth once I know it like
I'll fight it for a long time right I'm
really good at rationalizing it but once
the truth is like that's why the movie
failing was such a turning point in my
life because you can't argue that away
right and so like that was the thing
that was the thing that made me realize
I'm at the top of this mountain and it
sucks right cuz it if it didn't suck if
I was at the top of a mountain I wanted
to be at the top of then the movie
failing would suck but it wouldn't crush
me it wouldn't break me like that really
that cracked my grandiosity in a real
way i dude like I really I felt like I
was gonna die I mean which say it seems
ridiculous but anyone who's really ever
gone through a serious like emotional
like painful thing you know what I'm
talking about and I really totally
subjectively emotionally felt like I was
gonna die
and that was the thing that woke me up
was like okay like alright like at least
that started the path to understanding
I'm on the wrong Mountain alright so
then how did I go down so that's when I
finished my other books and I retired at
the end of the the last book right and
that was a very intentional thing like
that was kind of a symbolic I'm a big
fan of ritual and like I used to think
weddings and all those things were so
stupid and then I got
older I'm like okay maybe the way we do
weddings is stupid but I get why you
have rituals and why you do public
things and what like they're the they
are very impactful right why that's Rick
I believe that more than you know but I
want to know why you say that because
rituals done right
I think integrate thinking feeling and
accountability in a public way and they
commit you to something that that that
you want right you stand up in front of
everyone and say this is what I want or
Who I am or what I'm committing to then
it integrates all parts of yourself and
line and your community and lines you up
in a direction and that happened for me
like that's why I retired from from frat
tire because part of this cuz I just I'd
outgrown it man like I just didn't you
know I was 35 36 when I did that it's
like I didn't you know I hardly drank
anymore like I didn't go out and he's
like going to a bar at 35 is like kill
me right 25 is the greatest thing ever
35 night like it was the worst and so so
retiring was like a way for me to step
off the stage and to to find something
else so that was I had that was a
ceremony that was very important for me
really fast before we move off that was
part of the reason that you wanted to do
that because the way you bit your
persona everything you wrote you your
book was literally titled [ __ ]
finished first self-identified [ __ ]
around the movie that repeat you incited
a riot on yourself yes so there were
plenty of people that wanted to see you
burn at the stake that had to cross your
mind as you're like I'm gonna retire and
I open this vacuum for people to like
pounce on me and say [ __ ] finally
it's about time this guy shut up like
that kind of thing did you worry about
that mmm not consciously maybe
unconsciously dude I don't know I grew
up very independent right like they
unintentionally taught me at a young age
how to be self-reliant like I was
cooking my own meals at 10 I mean like
I'm never worried about losing
everything or whatever I know I can
start again I know I can handle myself
and also I've just never worried that
much what other people think you know
like
I didn't have a tight circle of people
who loved me and cared about me and
nurtured me who also taught me to be
very very conscious of their opinions
right I grew up like kind of on my own
and so like it never occurred to me to
worry about what these people think who
aren't in my life and don't impact my
life I mean if they like me okay that's
cool like I like that if they don't like
me yeah well [ __ ] them like it doesn't
doesn't impact me you know and so that
was really one of the reasons why I was
able to write what I wrote God knows I
was not the first person to get drunk
and throw up on myself and fall down
right I was the first dude to write
about it in an honest way under my own
name and I think the reason why is
because I didn't care about embarrassing
anyone because I had no one to embarrass
right it didn't bother me what people
thought and there was no one around me
that like I was gonna shame by doing
that and is that part of what then made
it the gave you the ability to go down
without too much overwhelming pressure
yeah it was like well let's be honest
money helps like I'd sold a lot of books
and it was like okay I have a chunk of
money like maybe I'm not I don't I don't
have your house yet you know but like I
don't have a jet yet but like I don't
have to work anymore so I don't have to
answer to anybody and even if I did I
could always there's a lot of ways to
make money I could make more money so it
was like well why do I care like it
doesn't matter to me like I I've done
what I had to do I've said what I had to
say about fryer in that point in my life
and I climbed that mountain and I
thought that was the peak and then I got
to that there's a great Buddhist saying
when you reach the top of the mountain
you'll there'll be another mountain
right and I like I didn't think that and
then I did it and I realized okay great
and so it was like alright and then I
retired coming down the mountain was not
hard right it it's really easy to lose
momentum like it's really easy to kind
of step off the stage because there's
always a hundred people waiting to
replace you so that was not hard at all
that going down was easy climbing the
next mountain was really hard because
that required
therapy that required me to really be
honest with myself about myself to
discover hard things find hard truths -
and it required me to shed a lot of the
things that had made me successful in
the last mount right like being the
rambunctious devil-may-care flippin
[ __ ] works great if you're gonna be
that character right or if you're gonna
live I wasn't even a character I it was
who I was but if you're gonna
essentially occupy that that that niche
but when you're climbing a different
mountain then you've got to let those
patterns go and because it wasn't a
brand it wasn't a persona it was who I
was I had to really kind of relearn in a
lot of ways how to be successful and how
to how to successfully deal with people
because if everyone knows oh that's that
guy that's that guy who wrote beer in
hell then they give you a wide berth
like you can be an [ __ ] and people
actually think it's funny like it's like
oh yeah that's that's Tucker max he's
supposed to you know throw up on the
table or whatever right but when you're
like an angel investor or an
entrepreneur or at a business meeting
like that's you done fine like
professionals you can't deal with that
right and like a serious successful
adults like they might even people who
like might have thought my books were
funny and liked them a lot
there's just like a certain level of
maturity that they expect which is
totally reasonable and most of the time
I was perfectly fine there were just a
lot of things that like I had to either
shed or learn going up them either about
the world around myself it was tough
dude it was hard he don't the hardest
part the hardest part is I think there's
this expectation that once you're
successful at one thing you just get to
be automatically successful at
everything else right and like that's
just not the truth a good friend of mine
actually my editor told me this great
saying he said Tucker all success gets
you is the conditional opportunity to
prove yourself again and at first when
he told me that I was like [ __ ] you
that's [ __ ] like I'm already
successful people should just accept my
genius because I'm Who I am and of
course that's nonsense right
it took me a while to relearn that but
yeah like then it became very clear I've
got to relearn every day especially in
the new arena I've got a real success
that is something I understand
completely having exited quest and I
think everybody looking at me like I was
out of my mind and knowing I mean we
talked as a team about this is reading
your stripes you know and if you know
the JJ Watt quote which I'm sure it's
him quoting somebody else but success
isn't owned it's leased and rent is due
everybody right and I just I love that
beyond measure do you meet that with
excitement do you meet that with
trepidation like how do you think about
definitely excitement it's not it's
actually both man I don't think I think
those those are two sides of the same
coin I'm excited so I am blessed enough
I've worked hard enough and made enough
money that I get to pick what I want to
do right not everyone has that that
ability although I think more people
have that ability than I realize but so
I wouldn't be doing the company that I'm
in the business and if I didn't like it
if I didn't if it didn't if I didn't
wake up excited to go do this I would
not do it talk to me about your
willingness to fire yourself as a CEO
yeah
that's a 100% because of therapy that's
another one a hundred percent like in
fact one of our clients was this guy JT
McCormack he was the president of a
hundred million dollar software company
just like another software company in
Austin and he had like come on when they
were two million as a sales guy and had
become president like in six months and
scaled the the company turnable whatever
and this is after he'd already run he
got a long history in sort of bits
scaling businesses and doing all kinds
of cool stuff and I kept going to him
for advice like dude what do I do with
this and he's like oh man you guys are
dict up you gotta do this and this and
this right and he kept giving me all
this amazing advice and so I started
like inviting him to our like executive
meetings at like asked him to be an
advisor and eventually he's like look
man no offense I don't think you can
handle this I'm like I know I can't
that's why I keep coming to you for
advice and he's like why don't you just
hire me
I'm like dude you you made last year in
salary probably about what we made in
top-line revenue like for judo
don't be ridiculous I'm like when we get
to 10 million we'll hire you he's like
no no you're not gonna make it to 10
million doing what you're doing now he's
like you actually need me now and I'm
like yeah but we can't afford sec yeah
let's talk so turns out his company
hadn't given him any equity and he was
kind of looking for his next thing and
he loved our process like I I sat down
with him pain and sort of our long-term
picture cuz like about what what what
what our vision was and he was totally
on board and he's like I'll come on as
president you can stay CEO like I'll
take over ops whatever you can be you
you can be the face of the company all
that sort of stuff and I was like no no
no that's [ __ ] like if you come on
you need to be the CEO I will step aside
because like everything you're gonna be
doing pretty much our CEO tasks and so
if you are president I'm CEO then it's
like it's [ __ ] I'm just a figurehead
I'm really good at certain things so
girls clearly I'll stay in the company
I'll go run marketing I'll go you know
run product and and you run the company
you scale the company and it was hard
for me at first to like kind of accept
that it was but when I say hard it was
like a couple days right and what was
that process because that is exactly
what I want understand yeah the number
of people that can do that from an ego
standpoint is vanishingly the only
reason I could do that as physiotherapy
man is because because what happened on
the movie because I know the last time I
tried to keep control of everything
I ruined it and I went through therapy
and I kind of addressed that stuff in me
you know what it came down to Tom it
came down to did I actually care about
our mission and our team or did I care
more about myself because if I cared
about the mission on the team clear as
day JT should be CEO and if I cared more
about myself than I should say CEO and
once I framed it that way then it was it
was a painful decision but it was easy
all right before I asked my last
question where can these guys find you
online learn more about book in a box
yeah it's a book or lock
calm pretty simple me I have a site
called Tucker max Amy well actually
wrote a whole article about why I
stepped aside and then my email is
Tucker at book in a box that's probably
the best place to start
I think awesome all right what is the
impact that you want to have in the
world I got to give two answers because
one is gonna seem trite and probably
won't be fulfilling for the audience but
it's the God's honest truth answer and
then the second one will is also true
but it's like the second thing I would
say but is something I think the
audience will will take more from so the
the impact I most want to have on the
world
God's honest truth is I feel like I will
be a success in life if my children I've
- now Bishop and Vaughn if they look
back after I'm gone and they are they
miss me and they love me and they are
proud to be my kid and they feel like I
my wife and I gave them everything they
needed to succeed at life or to set them
up because they're gonna have to fight
their own battles but we we set them up
the best possible way I feel like that's
the impact that's most important to me
if I'm a hero - Micah a true honest hero
to my kids that's the impact that
matters the most to me by far now in
terms of impacting the world outside of
my children it's the company I'm working
on now I like it from the outside it's
like oh yeah we're you know we help
people write books right okay pretty
simple but I think it's a lot more than
that one of the great tragedies of human
history I feel like is when Caesar got
mad at Cleopatra and burned the Library
of Alexandria which at the time held
basically all of the world's knowledge
like the Egyptians were obsessive they
were suss of scribes about like copying
essentially what everyone else knew and
the the at the time it was said that the
Library of Alexandria had at least one
copy of of all like recorded knowledge
and and it burned and so like a huge
swath of wisdom was lost
and I feel like now even though we have
so much technology and so much sort of
ability to record knowledge I think
almost everything that's recorded is
essentially garbage nonsense that no one
will care about and even a week much
less a lifetime but I feel like there's
so many smart people who knows so much
who don't record their knowledge they
don't and not because they're bad not
because they're trying to hide it not
because anything but because it's hard
to really turn your knowledge into and
doesn't have to just be a book but take
your knowledge out of your head and put
it into a form that you can share with
others that they can utilize in their
life right and I just feel like I have
the ability and my in my team and my
tribe a book interlocks we have the
ability to unlock the world's wisdom
right to get it out of people's heads
and to get it into not just book books
or what we're doing now but we plan to
expand to a lot of different verticals
but essentially we want to create a
community that can take people who know
things that are valuable to others like
know how to do things right or how to
anything that's valuable put it into
recordable shareable forms and share it
with the world people who want a good
like you've got the resources and the
ability you're good at medias you can
get your wisdom out of your own head but
how many people are know maybe not as
much as you but know like the equivalent
in their niche but either don't have the
time or the money or the desire to go to
all this effort right why should their
knowledge die with them god knows man
what what I wouldn't give to know at 18
what I know now or at 25 when I know now
right what would you pay when you start
a quest to have a book that what you
know now just about the like that
business right well it would be
priceless so that's that's the impact
that we are trying to have as a company
is we're trying to unlock the world's
wisdom yeah all of that man thank you so
much for coming on their toes
notable guys this is somebody who I'm
telling you is the most amazing example
of the extremities of human
transformation that I've ever seen in my
life do yourself a favor go look at
where he started read some of the early
books and then watch this interview
again it is unimaginable the lengths to
which you can reinvent yourself change
yourself if you're willing to do the
hard work to look inside yourself to do
what he says and really connect what
you're thinking to what you're feeling
and most importantly know what the
mountain you're actually trying to
summit and make sure that you have a
plan to get there and to have the
internal fortitude the sense of self to
be able to go down that hill first and I
know this is where a lot of people get
lost you get that first level of success
and you've still got the ego in the way
and you're not able to allow yourself to
descend before you go back up the other
side you don't have the humility to
recognize that what stands between where
you are and where you want to go is a
really hard to acquire set of skills
that's going to require a lot of work
internally and externally to get that we
didn't even get to talk about his
background in MMA and I'm guessing
that's where the bruises or the arms
come and what he's learned on the mat
and one thing that I came across in the
research that I just thought was really
incredible as he says that he feels a
sense of gratitude to everyone that he
grapples with because they give him a
chance to show where he's really at and
I love that and I think in life in
business in your family and everything
that you do oh the people that show up
to really let you show yourself where
you're at and to be who you are at that
moment and and then they're gonna be on
that journey with you as you change and
push and grow I think it's absolutely
incredible
and honestly honestly in all the people
that I've interviewed this guy sums that
up the best and is one of the most
profound transformations I've ever seen
and doesn't [ __ ] he says look I
enjoyed who I was then so this isn't
that it's not me running away from
something it's me really evolving as a
human being reassessing what I want
doing the work looking inward and
becoming something new and I think that
is absolutely incredible so I hope you
guys take as much away from this as I
did it was really incredible and if you
haven't already be sure to subscribe and
until next
my friends be legendary take care thank
you what's up impact ah--this if you've
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