Kind: captions
Language: en
I think about this way if you yell at
your people every time something is
wrong they'll just be like oh Tom's a
Yeller and if I just don't mind being
the L that I don't get away with
anything you know I mean and that's a
very that happens in companies a lot
it's like you have to be Calculon some
ways calculating and controlled and
choose what you're gonna get upset about
otherwise the people that you're
projecting that to you aren't gonna be
able to discern a minor mistake from a
catastrophic mistake it's very important
that you not the boy who cried wolf
everybody welcome to impact Theory you
were here my friends because you believe
that human potential is nearly limitless
but you know that having potential is
not the same as actually doing something
with it
so our goal with this show and company
is to introduce you to the people and
ideas that will help you actually
execute on your dreams all right
to paraphrase Steven Pressfield today's
guest is one of the greatest thinkers of
our generation
he's a multiple time bestselling author
who's written a seemingly impossible six
books in the last five years his
meditation on stoic philosophy the
obstacles the way is not only a true
perennial seller it's been translated
into more than 20 languages and has a
devoted following of some of the most
driven and successful people on the
planet including NFL coaches world-class
athletes entrepreneurs TV personalities
and even political leaders by my
estimation it is one of the 10 most
important books you must read if you
want to develop a mindset for success
and even if this were his only book I'd
sit at his feet to learn but every book
he's written delivers a similar level of
impact this guy is without question my
intellectual man crush Monday the
systematic and practical nature of his
thinking is so powerful it's nuts
especially considering that he dropped
out of college at 19 so he could
apprentice with the master author Robert
Greene and by all accounts my friends he
learned his lessons very well as he went
on from there to not only become an
amazing author in his own right but in
his early 20s became the director of
marketing for the billion-dollar public
company American Apparel helping it
achieve its astronomical levels of
success and in the process
becoming one of the most sought-after
voices in the field of media strategy
his incredible marketing tactics
detailed in the book trust me I'm lying
not only became a best-seller it helped
him launch his own media consulting
company brass check which has advised
companies like Google taser and complex
as well as world-renowned authors such
as neil strauss Tim Ferriss and Tony
Robbins so please help me in welcoming
the best-selling author of ego as the
enemy and most recently perennial seller
the modern-day philosopher King Ryan
[Applause]
well that was very kind of I appreciate
it now I've been effusive with my direct
to your face praise for quite some time
now so hopefully you know that all of
that is is truly sincere that isn't hype
for the show like reading your books
meeting you in person though the way you
think really does hit me like that well
know that that means a lot it's just
it's it's overwhelming to stand there
and watch you say yes that that I
imagine yeah no thank you I appreciate
it of course dude yeah so where I want
to start with you you talk a lot about
people only write the book that you
couldn't not write it's got to be
something that really compels you and I
love that and I totally agree sure what
drives you I think what what drives me
is is trying to figure out the things
that I wish that I was taught that I
wish were part of what you're supposed
to learn in elementary school and middle
school in high school you know
philosophy was supposed to be
historically this they would call it the
guide to the good life right so it's
something we've been thinking about for
a long time but Lee where is this guy
you know like no one gave it I read a
lot of books in school there were a lot
of you know things that they made us
look at and know where did I ever get
this guide and so I think I'm always
sort of searching for the answer to that
question you know how does one live how
is one supposed to live what do you do
in the morning what do you do at night
you know how do you find happiness that
you know the answers to these questions
and and so I'm looking for that
personally and then I think
professionally my job is to then
the answers to those questions as I as I
find them that's really interesting so
especially now that you're on the
bandwagon of fatherhood yes I was I'm
very curious to hear more of your take
on that but like would you ever write
like for somebody in grade school like
that Manuel and I usually am writing to
a younger version of myself when I'm
writing that's one of the I think you
have to as a writer you have to have
some idea who your audience is like you
have to be able to envision that person
and speak to them and so one of the
people that I'm always trying to speak
to is me whether it's five years ago or
ten years ago or 15 years ago I don't
know if I have enough insight into where
I was at that age that I feel like I
could really speak to to that exactly
but I do love really well done
children's books I mean like if you've
ever heard the little prince there's
tons of lessons in there I think right
now I'm I've still got enough to say to
me just a couple years ago before I can
go back in time quite that far right
what how like the smile that you had in
your face I want to make sure we show
that when I asked you about becoming a
father yeah how is it change the way
that you think or approach life so my
son is 13 months so I don't have a ton
of experience yet but I would say I'll
give you three three lessons I say so
number one is it becomes much easier to
say no to things because you realize we
seem to have a limitless capacity to
steal time from ourselves right you know
and the Stoics talked about this all the
time you know like we would go you would
be incensed if one of your neighbors
encroached on to your physical property
but if one of your neighbors came over
and just talked your ear off for an hour
you would find it rude to be like get
out of here I don't want to speak with
you right do you know what I mean like
so we protect our physical space much
more than we protect our time even
though physical space can be regained
and time can never be regained and so
one of the things that it's like even
I've been married for a while and I've
been with my wife for a long time I even
found that I I was comfortable stealing
time from her and from our relationship
in a way that I'm not comfortable
stealing time for
a child to have promised as much of my
time as I can - right right so it
becomes easier to say no to in essential
things that's number one number two I
would say is that especially when my son
was first born was sort of learning that
like parenting is just actually just
being there right like just physically
in the space so almost nothing else in
my life was would be like would sitting
in a chair not doing anything be doing
something right right and so it's it's
really slowed me down in a very good way
right that like my job is to sit here
while he plays around on the floor doing
whatever he wants I don't need to be as
purpose oriented and that's been a
really good lesson for me because like
why is that a good lesson because if you
think that action is the end-all be-all
you end up doing action for the sake of
doing action right so I I feel like I
should always be doing and doing and
doing but sometimes you're just supposed
to be and oftentimes just sort of being
there and sitting there and being still
is where really great insights come from
and this is also where happiness comes
from you know it's hard to be happy and
appreciate and feel gratitude when
you're just moving all the time my
therapist said to me one time she's like
you got to remember it's it's human
being that human doing right and and the
kid is a really great reminder of the
the being part because they're so always
in the present moment right and then I
think the last lesson is just sort of
watching someone experience sort of just
complete joy and again present Ness is
also a reminder that like things don't
need to be as - I'm a very intense
person and although that intensity is
responsible for a lot of my success it's
also responsible for my unpleasant
moments right it's responsible for
anguish that I feel or insecurity that I
feel and that need to be busy all the
time and so I think just watching you
know the simple pleasures that he can
enjoy I think it lets me feel a bit more
of gratitude and appreciation and then
it lets me focus on what's really
essential all right well now let's ask a
brilliant occasion at least I'm
deeply fascinated by this so now let's
imagine you wake up tomorrow you don't
have kids what of those things would
actually carry forward as transformative
elements for you I would say in a way
there I would carry forward all of them
but having this having this person this
living thing that you're responsible for
keeps those lessons top of mind because
there's real consequences for it right
it's a reminder that you can't do
everything all at once and you do have
to prioritize there's someone who will
be upset who will be hurt who will
suffer for this rather than you just
deferring those costs into the future
which is what I did before I had a son
and and what I think most people allow
themselves to do all the time you know
we know objectively that we're going to
die we don't have unlimited amounts of
time but we still spend it as if we have
unlimited amounts of time because the
consequences are so deferred into the
future that we can get away with it I
also intellectually knew all those three
things that I told you before but it's
been good it's been the hardest thing
that I've ever done and and I think it's
good to challenge yourself that way all
right so abstracted from kids for a
second okay
your your your a very methodical thinker
so what is the matrix by which you make
a decision for how to spend your time or
even what to strive towards look I
struggled with the time thing before I
had a kid so I'm all my instinct is I
heard a great line from Austin Kleon and
I think he got it from somewhere else he
was saying you know the the job of or
the mindset of an entrepreneur or a
creative person is that you basically
say yes to everything and to you can get
to a position where you can say no but
it's really hard to know that you've
gotten to that position right especially
because you work yourself up into a
state I'll give you another actually
analogy a friend of mine his name is dr.
Jonathan fader he's a sports
psychologist who works with the New York
Giants and the New York Mets and he was
saying that in baseball particularly
players from like the Dominican Republic
they have this saying he said you don't
walk off the island so basically the
only way you can get out of poverty or
out of this place is by swinging right
you can only hit your way off the island
right and so on the one hand what that
does is it creates really aggressive
players they swing at every pitch
but then as soon as you make it in the
major leagues it's all about bat
discipline right you can't swing it
every pitch because the pitches are
better because if you miss it causes
problems for your team and so it's this
balance right once you've arrived the
thing that got you there is now in some
ways your worst enemy and so that's
something that I have always struggled
with is like I've always been the person
that just said yes to everything early
on in my career you know it was like I
can do all of it at the same time I
don't care if you think it's humanly
impossible I will outwork you I will I
will make it possible and so there was a
time where I don't think I ever ended
one of the opportunities that I had so I
was just adding them on top and on top
and I never hit a wall like I just never
hit it and so always saying yes always
saying yes that became who I was and now
as I've as I've achieved a certain level
of success and what I've done has gotten
harder and harder now it's all about
protecting the space that I need to do
that work I think just the idea of
needing to make those hard choices
knowing what's important what's not
important what I'm trying to accomplish
not only if I struggled with that
already in my life but then having a kid
makes the stakes of that higher but then
it's also just a learning experience
yeah there's a concept in perennial
cellar which truly haunts me okay and is
it's clearly the sign of the thing that
I struggle with along these lines which
was nothing is destroyed more great
artists than the thought that they can
do two mutually exclusive things at the
same time yes I had butchered the right
you get the idea and you've said that of
your consulting business you feel like
all you do is untangle people's like
mess of things that are often
conflicting that they want to do what
what is it about that problem and how do
you help people through it well I think
what I'm saying is that oftentimes
people go okay here's really what I want
to do and this is what I'm trying to
accomplish and then they see all these
other things that other people are doing
and then they they kind of see that as
like a grab bag they're like I don't
want a little of this and a little of
this and a little of this and I want it
all at the same time and that's not
really possible you know you can't play
five sports at the same time
you got to pick one you got a specialist
maybe you can do two but you probably
can't do five right you can't be a
classical musician and a rock star you
know and this and this all at the same
time so it's about sort of picking their
lane and then knowing that some some
goals are mutually exclusive the
question I ask clients the most think of
what does success look like for you on
this project and I get them to really
describe it to me and let's say there's
more than one thing in there I go now if
you could only pick one of those things
and the other ones didn't happen which
one would you pick and I'm trying to get
them to sift through some of that
conflict so we can really hone in on
what we're trying to do and oftentimes I
wear ego comes in is like we've got the
things that impress other people and
then the real meaningful impact that
we're trying to have and often times I'm
not saying that the the status things
aren't nice and they're not they're not
impressive and they're not cool but
we've got to make sure that they're not
coming at the expense of those other
things I love that notion of you know
asking yourself what success looks like
for you and having that clarity and how
important is that clarity do you think
for people that want to be successful
like how much of this is you start with
a goal that is abundantly clear and then
you create a path I think one of the
things that has really helped me make
some of the decisions we're talking
about earlier is what is like an ideal
day of your life look like well maybe
not right now but like what do you want
a day in your life to look like and so
if that day is like look I'm the kind of
person I love going to an office I love
lots of responsibility I love lots of
pressure I thrive in that environment
well then great you know that that's
where you want it for me
when I think about like the high-powered
executive who's who's who an entire
company is resting and falling on I
think how does that person have time to
do any creative long term thinking I
don't think that they do and so I had to
realize that oh these two paths because
I was on two paths I was a writer and a
researcher and then also I had I was at
a big company that they were mutually
exclusive that one was coming at the
cost of the other and I tried to do both
for a long time
I won point I stupidly doubled down on
the one that I didn't want and I
realized it occurred to me one day I was
I was actually in LA there was some
chaos at American Apparel and so I've
gotten called back in they were paying
great money and it was like you know
9:00 a.m. I just gone for a run I'm
sitting down I was writing and I looked
at my watch and I was like oh I have to
be at the office like if I'm not at the
office if people are gonna be mad
they're gonna wonder what their pay and
that was like but my dream is not going
into an office the most important thing
for me is to have the freedom to go
where my day takes me especially
creatively I'm on a path that's taking
me further away from what I want my
ideal day to look like that's not
success you know and so and Tim Ferriss
has talked about this is you know some
people it's like my dream life is being
on a beach in Bali well what does that
actually cost could you have that now do
you have to have a life that you don't
like so that at the end of it
potentially you're lucky enough to go
there or could you find a way to get
that now I'm trying to think about this
on a regular basis is my life resembling
what those days are supposed to look
like and if I have too many days in a
row that don't resemble what I want my
day to look like I go I'm I'm I'm having
the opposite of success you know and
what do you do very tactically in that
moment is it journaling what does that
look like so I do journal every morning
and every night so part of my journaling
is just like a detailing of events like
not for history but just so I'm forced
to recount what happened and actually
think about it you know the Stoics would
say prepare for the day ahead and then
you're supposed to reflect on the day
that just passed and so that sort of
process of preparing in the morning and
reviewing the evening allows me to never
get too far from where I want to be you
know what I mean like I'm never gonna
I'm never gonna wake up five years from
now hopefully five years from now and go
this is just really not the life that I
wanted because I'm I'm doing a regular
series of check-ins so going back to
what you said about you know for a brief
moment I actually doubled down and the
thing that I didn't want yeah which I
totally get yeah I understand in a way
that I can't even conveyed
you why do you think people have a hard
time identifying what they really want
and like what can people do to not find
themselves in that situation there's a
very first world problem but I would say
one of the hardest things to do in the
world is to turn down money right so
like I was in a conference room and
someone said you know look we need you
to come back but we know you have this
writing thing when you're quitting
yeah or I'd already basically left I was
I was like sort of remote and and then
and didn't have a day-to-day role and
they said look we need you to come back
you know this gonna be a tough you know
series of months but I think you could
make a contribution we need you to come
back and I said well look you know I've
got all the stuff and they said well
what would it cost to get you to come
back and I threw out what I thought was
a high number and they said done but and
so in that moment I was like well that's
a lot of money if it would it would be
irresponsible to say no to this right
and so I was telling myself one that I
could do it all at the same time and
then to that like you know I I wanted
this money like you know and and it
would it would seem dumb to say no to it
I do with lots of successful like
entrepreneurs and athletes and one of
the things they're always talking with
they're like I just I love books I love
writing I would love to be able to do
that and so one of the things that
struck me in that period where I was
unhappy was it was like I get to do this
thing that other people tell me they
wish they could do and Here I am taking
a bunch of money to do the thing that
they say they don't like doing you know
this is this doesn't make any sense at
all and so I had to back myself out of
that situation I you know I left some
money on the table as a result and it
was it wasn't a fun experience but it
was it was just I think in that moment I
wasn't thinking what do I want my life
to look like what's the most important
thing to me I was thinking how many
zeros are in this cheque right and that
is not a great way to make decisions in
your life because what do people do with
their money they buy freedom right but
oftentimes they give up freedom to get
money and so that it was like oh I could
just skip those steps and stay where I
am and be very happy
so interesting man so yes I think that
that's an eternal thing that people do
with their their work they're giving up
their freedom in order to buy some sort
of future freedom which may or may not
ever come by the way right because what
it what if you do that and then you get
hit by a bus yeah or the money never
comes sure which is maybe even more
likely right right it just always
slipping into the future the eternal
future so my question is though and
there's there's two things really so one
how did you deal with whatever the
reverse of buyer's remorse is right
where you give the money back and then
that next time that you want to do
something and realize I can excite have
the money but off I just stuck it out
and then yeah a little start there it's
not like I was choosing between you know
the poorhouse and you know paying for my
groceries or something right like this
was this was extra one of the pivotal
conversations in my life was with Tim
Ferriss when I was starting my company
and he said you know Ryan what do you do
with your money and I was like what do
you mean he's like what do you what do
you spend your money on I was like
nothing okay I just I I just put it in a
bank account and then I try to manage it
responsibly I live pretty reasonably and
and I try save my money in whatever it
so he's like okay so why are you going
out and trying to get more and more if
you don't need it and and that was
really helpful to me so now when I'm
thinking about clients like what my test
is that brass check is we go like okay
is this work we're gonna be proud of or
is this giving us money that we need to
do something we will be proud of that
test is really really important a lot of
times people are saying yes to money not
because hey if I do this then I can pour
it into the movie project that
everything depends on it's like I need
this so I can lease a nicer car right
one one concept I'm assuming it comes
from stoic philosophy and I can't
remember if I read it in perennial
seller or ego's the enemy or both
perhaps but what would a person more
humble than me learn from this moment
yeah something I think it's incredibly
powerful walk people through what that
means what you're trying to get to
and what the result is of approaching
things like that why I think there's
this cool exercise from Adam Smith who
was the economist
he wrote The Wealth of Nations but he
also wrote a book called the Theory of
Moral Sentiments which is this sort of
brilliant book about philosophy and kind
of like why we do the right thing
basically and one of the things he was
talking about is he was like you should
judge all your actions he should you
should subjected he said to the
indifferent spectator test which is like
what if there was a totally impartial
person who you didn't know was just
standing there watching you what would
they think of this you know what how
would they judge what's happening and
that's a way to sort of step out from
your own logic your own impulses your
own natural feelings and sort of judge
you know if you're not religious you're
not like what would Jesus do you're like
what would something random dive into
this and if it doesn't pass his test
it's probably not a good thing to do
right and so I think that's that's the
test I go it's like what would a person
who isn't so caught up in this who whose
identity isn't on the line how would
they react to this rude remark or how
would they react to this lowball offer
they would not be nearly so caught up in
it wouldn't threaten them the way that
I'm feeling that right now so I'm gonna
borrow a little bit of their objectivity
and I'm gonna try to I'm gonna
incorporate it into my reaction here in
the way that therapy is about
questioning our thoughts philosophies
giving us the tools to in the heat of
the moment you know Viktor Frankl would
talk about how you know there's this
between stimulus and response there's
like a a moment and that's where we get
to choose who were gonna be and I think
philosophy is about that moment really
how often do you think about that moment
for you very specifically like do you
have a codified set of so I think in my
mind is a pachenko ball machine okay
what those look like yeah you drop the
ball on the table it bounced around over
a lot of things and those things that
it's bouncing on is my the code that I
live by right my belief system yeah so I
take something negative or you know
there's nothing good or bad but thinking
makes it so sure so it's like and I put
it through all of that so that I get or
a resulting outcome that is useful yes
how I think of it do you spend a lot of
time building something like that yeah
yeah you know we're not robots so we
can't like okay I'm not gonna react this
is like an intuitive almost an
unconscious process right and and so
you're sort of you're trying to you're
trying to put all this information in
there you're trying to to sort of put in
those those little points that the thing
is bouncing around on the way down as a
way of sort of slowing down the process
I think most people your average person
who doesn't work on themselves who's not
reading who doesn't care about any of
this they're just there the time between
stimulus and response is like nothing
and the more you work on it the more you
practice the more you're able to
question your own thoughts
so that's slowing it down what does that
practice process look like like how do
you practice that that's a good question
I mean it it'd be like how do they
practice swinging a bat in baseball I
mean they just swing it a lot and they
they watch film of themselves so they're
stepping back and evaluating things
after they happen they're looking for
cues there that they've got other people
around them who are giving them feedback
I think it's about a sort of cultivating
and awareness in a process of continual
reflection on the data that your life is
creating all the time do you think most
people do that though no of course not
that's why it's such a huge competitive
edge to start working on that do you
know what I mean and and the earlier you
start working on it
the sooner you're gonna start to see
results but the more those results are
going to compound over time there's
nothing in let's say stoic philosophy
where we were saying that you know the
idea that there's no good or bad there's
just the interpretation that we have on
things so I first learned that when I
was 19 years old I'm sitting in my
apartment in college and I read this
book and some person 2,000 years ago
said that to me so I that was the first
time I encountered it intellectually a
week later that would have only a
minuscule impact on my life but every
every time I've thought about it every
time I've studied it every time I've
tried to reflect on how in retrospect I
could have done that better I've
accumulated
lately more now more knowledge more
appreciation more set more sense of that
the truth of that and and there I've
gotten better and better at it I might
be only 20% better at it now but I'm
hoping that it's 70 that that return
will compound not unlike my retirement
savings right like you're thinking about
this and working on it and writing about
it and talking to other people about it
and and trying to evaluate your own
behavior and then it's just this process
of reflection and minuscule improvement
as you go and you're not trying to get
to perfection right now you're just
trying to get a little bit better than
you were yesterday or an hour ago
do you read Rey de Leo's principles I
have not read it but I've heard amazing
things about it III know his bride no I
know a bunch of the principles but his
practice is similar right he's like
we're recording all our meetings we're
getting feedback from people in the
office about how you're doing one of my
favorite stories about that Pete Carroll
that Coach the Seattle Seahawks one of
the best coaches in the NFL he was
talking about how you know coaches are
constantly filming their players and
they're forcing the players to break to
break down game film they're ruthless
like it's like you could have a great
game and then the next day you're you're
back in the practice facility and you
know the receivers coach is telling you
what a horrible game you had and all the
opportunities that you belong and so
obviously that's that's what makes these
guys so great and coach Carroll was
saying like I realized I don't do that
to the coaches like the coaches never
experienced that and so he started
filming his coaches and he would he
would force them at the beginning of the
season to look back at all the times
that they blew it right that they lost
their temper or that they missed
something and and so I try to do that in
my own life I mean one of the ways that
I you know authors aren't supposed to
read their own reviews for instance one
of the reasons that I read most of the
Amazon reviews let's say on my books is
that I want to get feedback from people
so I'm not reading them to feel like I'm
awesome or to sort of wit myself but I
want to see what people are responding
to
and I want to get unsolicited feedback
on the writing I have a filter that I
put that information through but I'm
looking for as much feedback as I can
about the things that I do so that I can
incorporate that data and get better so
this is like my life's obsession this
moment right here so one I want to know
what that filter is sure get to that in
a second but so you're you're incredibly
successful right you've got your own
company it's doing well working with
biggest companies ever you're a multiple
time bestselling author and you have
perennial sellers in the mix as well
which is sell sell sell sell sell why
the hell do you subject yourself to the
self flagellation of an amazon review
like what yeah is that about well it's
not self flagellation so you have to
make that distinction how do you prime
yourself mentally for it not to become
self flagellation I can't change what
happened so I'm looking for this
feedback for tips and information that
can help me improve so that that person
who let's say they didn't like what I
did so that I can not let that happen
again
I'd say you know Ryan I really like this
book but I can't let my son read it
because he uses the f-word a lot and so
it was like okay so some people don't
like cursing and then I noticed as I
went through the the positive reviews no
one ever said I really like how ryan
curses a lot so this was a this wasn't
something that was important to me right
and here it was having a negative impact
on some of the readers and then let's
say a marginal to no impact
no positive impact to the readers who
were enjoying so to me that's a pretty
easy data point to go like okay in some
cases I think I need to drop an f-bomb
here to catch people's attention right
and I can see that when I talk that the
audience is you know sort of drifting a
little bit I can call I can use it you
know but there's no reason for me to do
this in my Ren so in in the daily Stoke
there there's no curse words and that
was an improvement I think that made the
book better and I got that by going
through this process that makes a lot of
sense now now talk to me you said you
have like an installed filter that you
used to know what to listen to and what
not to listen to yeah look at the
feedback you're getting and then
remember what you were trying to do for
instance I'll get a criticism from let's
call them stoic fundamentalist right
people are really sort of nerds about
philosophy who will say you know Ryan
you know Ryan doesn't add anything new
he's just taking stoic principles and
illustrating them with stories right so
that'll be one criticism or they'll say
they'll say you should read the
originals don't read Ryan's book or
other people will say you know Ryan is
taking these timeless virtuous
principles and then illustrating them
with famous successful people and you
know that sort of cheapens it or you
know that's that's uh that's not what
stoicism is about let's say well in both
cases I was explicitly trying to do the
thing they were criticizing me for right
so I say in the book if you're really
interested in stoicism go read the
ancient stoic texts I cannot do better
than them what I was writing the
obstacles away and egos the enemy is for
people who don't have time or interest
in ancient philosophy but are trying to
improve their life in some way
so I'm trying to meet them where they
are so when someone says that I didn't
do this thing that I explicitly wasn't
trying to do my filter is going okay
this person shouldn't have read the book
this wasn't for them I don't need to
take this personally right if you're
trying to be everything for everyone and
you read feedback you're just gonna get
more lost because some one person is
gonna say this and another person's
gonna say that but if you know here's
exactly what I was trying to accomplish
and here's what that success looks like
then you can you can filter this
information and go okay is this person
whose advice getting me closer to where
I want to get or further from where I
want to get and that has been really
helpful to me what I love about that and
I really hope people are listening to
what you're saying is you're doing it
with an eye towards getting better to me
there's an element this is why I brought
up principles by Ray Dalio is his thing
is all about like I'm just trying to get
to truth yes and one of the things that
I wish on every Hugh
being is to one day in some way shape or
form understand what it's like to be an
entrepreneur in that if the company does
well fortune can be yours and if it does
poorly you can lose everything
sure the amount of [ __ ] that cuts
through is crazy like it's not even
necessarily that I don't want to have an
ego I have to love to have a big thrive
you go and people are always saying like
how do you stay humble with this accept
dude because if I don't I'm gonna lose
everything
no the the reality of how low the margin
for error is is like the ultimate recipe
or sort of shortcut to humility like
let's say where I'm fighting with an
editor or someone or even just a friend
who's reading one of my books about you
know the use of this sentence or this
paragraph or this stylistic or you know
something in a book I don't have the
room to be like you don't know what the
[ __ ] you're talking about like I'm the
genius let me do this right because if
I'm wrong I don't feel so secure in what
I do that I feel like I can afford to
let ego make any of those decisions I
have to let truth make those decisions
so you know there's a writing adage it's
like when when someone says that
something's wrong they're almost always
right I think this is true in life when
someone says there's something wrong
with what you're doing or you know how
you're carrying yourself or what you're
you know project they're a product
they're almost always right when they
explain why it's wrong or how to fix it
they're almost always wrong so it's like
when someone's saying like I don't like
Chapter six they're right they don't
like chapter six right when they say you
should get rid of chapter six or you
should you know make chapter six the
opposite of what it is or get rid of
this trip
they're probably wrong but you should
try to figure out why chapter six isn't
working and improve it and make sure
that it's aligned with your vision
because maybe it's not or if it's
perfectly aligned with your vision then
you have to make the tough call and go
look I'm not gonna please this person
all right so now the million dollar
question how the hell do you know the
difference first off you should just go
like like I'll give you an example I
I've talked about this before too but
like one of the dangers of
entrepreneurship is or making anything
is that like people
around you're gonna be like that's not
good idea don't do it and then you don't
listen and you do it and you end up
being right when you've kind of just
learned that a very dangerous lesson
which is like just disregard what other
people say so one of the reasons you
tend to see people on the way up take a
company like uber they're just like
blowing past conventional wisdom
business best practices they're doing it
their way over and over and over again
and they're going up and up and up and
that's creating a feedback loop where
it's like the rules don't matter we do
it our way we do it our way and they're
being rewarded for it over and over
again and then at some point they cross
a line and now all of a sudden they've
started to do things that are illegal
that are unethical that their customers
aren't gonna like but there's the delay
between doing that and being held
responsible for that and that's where
the sort of catastrophic explosion and
consequences inevitably come in and so
whenever you feel yourself going I'm
just gonna blow past what everyone's
saying they're all idiots you know they
don't know that's a really bad sign that
you're probably doing something out of
it you know so I think that certainty is
something I'm always nervous about like
so it's become sort of cliche and
entrepreneur circles and and you've
probably read this article you know the
idea of like that's it's hell yes or
hell no right like either you're there a
thousand percent on it or you say no but
all the difficult decisions I've ever
made in my life were like you know 5149
so so it's like in some ways I'm
actually really skeptical I I think that
there's a great point in that article
which is like just don't do you know
don't do stuff just because you're
supposed to but it should be tough and
if it feels easy then I want to question
that I guess is one of my answers and
then look nobody said writing a book or
being a leader or you know shepherding
some vision and no one said it was going
to be easy and clear and you were gonna
know these are things that are gonna
keep you up at night and that you've got
to roll the dice on to a certain degree
and so you just do it and then if you're
wrong you learn and you do it better
next time how do you keep your emotions
out of the way like I I have a very
simple formula which is the thing that I
want in this world I want so desperately
that and it's not an ego thing so it's
very I haven't you go for sure but it's
very easy
for me to set that aside because not the
thing that I want most okay and so in
those times of like emotionally I want
to do this yeah but then I just check it
again so does it actually help me get
where I want to go no okay cool then I'm
gonna go after that thing what mechanism
do you have for dealing with that well
what I think one of the best ways is
just time right Abraham Lincoln famously
whenever he was like really mad at a
subordinate like you know one of the
generals in the Civil War he would write
them like just a really nasty letter
like he would just this is what you're
doing wrong this is you know he would
write everything that he wanted to say
and then he'd put that letter in an
envelope and then put it in his drawer
and then wait you know a day or a week
and then most of the time he wouldn't
send it and so one of the things I try
to do is I go like do I really need to
respond to this right now because that
tends to be where that emotion the
emotions are typically immediate right
like I'd find even the things that I'm
really upset about I'm most upset about
them when I first find out about them if
I give it a weekend or if I sleep on it
I'm much less upset about them and I'm
gonna be more rational and I'm gonna be
more responsible with how I reply so I
just want to give it some time
I mean one of the tests that I have I do
this with the emails a lot like if I'm
fighting or I'm arguing with someone
I'll go like what if I just pretend I
didn't get their response like I'm not
even gonna read it like I know like I
just said I just said my piece and then
they sent me a response back like five
minutes later I'm just not gonna I'm
just gonna delete it right and then I'll
let them have to resend it to me or just
let the issue drop right so I'm kind of
just sticking my head in the sand but
I'm I'm really just creating space for
them to be less because they're not
gonna resend the exact same thing
they're gonna hey we need to talk about
that thing Oh what was it and then we'll
you know what we'll have a little bit
more reasonable of a dialogue and when I
feel that impulses like I got to deal
with right now
that's emotion and that's probably not
gonna get the best solution out of
things what are things that wind you up
to use a nice British phrase they get me
pissed off yeah you know when people
mess with my stuff so like if I like
writing is about what I'm trying to
accomplish right and so I did it the way
I wanted it to be
and I'll get really upset like if
someone comes back to me even if it's
small and like a change is made without
just like I'm very open to taking
criticism and feedback but like I caught
something let's say with a copy editor
recently on my book I was working on
where like they reworked something
without they just assumed I would be
okay with it
and they reworked it and I caught it and
that was very upsetting to me right
because if I hadn't caught it something
that I didn't sign off on could have
gone out to the my readers but you know
I was much more upset about it at 3
o'clock on a Tuesday than I was the
following Thursday when I finally got to
the bottom of what happened and I worked
through it it's just never that great to
act out actually I'll give you something
because I think about this question a
lot too and so I've asked some of the
basketball coaches that I've that have
worked with or have read my book I was
like I was like do you ever get like a
technical on purpose because I could
coach you know the worst thing a coach
could do is get so mad about something
that they give the team the opposing
team an extra point right so obviously
you don't want to get a technical on
accident like because you're just
whipped around by your emotions but
sometimes you should get upset to send a
message to your team to send a message
to the refs you know to get the crowd
going whatever it is and so I'm I was
like that I'm interested if I'm gonna
use my emotions I want to be calm
internally but projecting the emotional
response that's going to be effective in
that situation but I don't want to be
jerked around by those emotions
unconsciously did that it that's
advanced class hit yeah so this is
something I don't often talk to people
about but is is absolutely necessary I
think to certainly be running a company
is a you've got to be able to control
your emotions so that you're not getting
whipped around as you said but be you
have to understand that all of this even
emotions expressed suppress facial
expressions all of it is a performance
meant to convey something yes and once
you understand that you can leverage out
rage intensity anger whatever the case
may be as a tool yes to move somebody
down the road then you
can really start to become effective
well think about this way if you yell at
your people every time something is
wrong they'll just be like Oh Tom's a
Yeller and if I just don't mind being me
all that and get away with anything you
know I mean and that's a very that
happens in companies a lot it's like you
have to be Calculon someways calculating
and controlled and choose what you're
gonna get upset about otherwise the
people that you're projecting that to
aren't gonna be able to discern a minor
mistake from a catastrophic mistake it's
very important that you're not the the
boy who cried wolf you know the one
who's who's screaming about
inconsequential matters and then when
someone messes something up when they
cross that red line they're not gonna
take it seriously because you're like
look you yelled at me yesterday because
the the coffee was cold and you know
here you messed up something on my
calendar or whatever it is that you've
got it you've got to be able to use the
those are those emotions how you
articulate what you're feeling or your
you know how you're gonna act in a
meeting or how you're gonna put you know
present a plan that's a communication
tool and you've got to be able to use
that you can't just be oh I'm not
feeling it's on down today or I'm in a
shitty mood so I'm gonna be yelling
today that's not a good way to make
those tough decisions
I think of egos the enemy and perennial
seller some what is compendiums to each
other I really feel okay what and I
guess if you don't I'll give you my
reasons for that if you want to create
something great yeah you need to get
your ego out of the way right so that's
words it's sort of the moral of the
story for me right so the perennial
seller addresses how to actually
tactically create something is great but
you can still feel the egos the enemy
elements in it where it's like you're
ultimately the one that's gonna stop you
or propel you forward yes so taking that
concept of if you want to create
something great this is how you get out
of your own way what are like the three
or four things that people need to do
think believe whatever in order to
achieve greatness well that's so number
one like what are you actually trying to
do cuz you can't do 15 things at the
same time so like here's what I'm making
that's the the main like do you actually
know right because sometimes people are
trying to do too much at one time and
then who is this for
because it can't be for you you know
like obviously every thing that you work
on should be fulfilling and exciting and
interest into you but you're not the
customer of your product by definition
right you can't buy it from yourself so
like how is this going to provide value
for the audience that's like the most
important thing and and that has to be
the ruthless test that you check
everything they're doing against number
three is like who are the people that
are helping you check whether you're
doing that or not right and so I think
you need to have that test even if your
self funding an entrepreneurial venture
like the fact that you know you were
successful in the past and you don't
have to get venture capital on your next
project that's great but it's also a
potential disadvantage because now you
don't have this external objective
feedback telling you where you can
improve where you can fall short so that
means you need to work extra hard to
cultivate those people whether it's a
board of directors whether it's trusted
friends whether it's a focus group like
who is interacting with this thing and
giving you feedback I think that's
really important and then I would say
that fourth and the most important one
and this is where ego I think kills a
lot of projects is people think like if
I build it they will come
right if I just make something so good
it will automatically be successful or
they go I'm a maker like I shouldn't
have to also be a marketer and and to me
the creative process the entrepreneurial
process is sort of two consecutive
marathons so you run this marathon you
you make a book you know you have a
movie in the can you have a prototype of
an invention whatever it is you you know
you stagger across the finish line like
I did it and like you know that race
Proctor they grab you and you think
they're taking you to the medal stand
there like you know you did it you won
but really they're just like taking you
through a chute to the starting line of
the second marathon which is now how the
hell do we get this into people's hands
right and so with every book it's like
the first marathon is making it for me
and then the second marathon is like all
right now I have to be as creative I
have to work as hard I have to throw as
much energy in
to selling this thing to everyone that
it's potentially for as humanly possible
and so I tend to find that creatives are
either or with books or movies or
whatever I'm working on is either
they're only interested in the marketing
marathon because of great salespeople
and they think like oh I'll just slap
something together or they're so
creatively so love that process that
they want to they want to skip the
second marathon what a success look like
for you so we started with that sure you
know that you have to have that clarity
like in in life what is success and for
me success is a couple things I think
it's to have the creative freedom to
make the things that I feel compelled to
make and produce having the sort of
lifestyle and personal freedom to set up
my life how I want it to be right so to
not be oh I've got to go to Cleveland
tomorrow for this thing that I don't
want to go like I do I want to have that
freedom and then I think success is also
getting better like I love books and
love writing I've dedicated my life to
this craft and I want to be like one of
the best people to do it and so success
is am i moving up in my abilities like
is every book regardless of sales is it
better than the one that came before
that's it that's also one of my
definitions of success all right and
before I ask my last question these guys
find you at Ryan holiday on pretty much
every social platform and then my
websites Ryan holiday net and then the
books are everywhere books are sold
nice yeah all right so final question
okay it's the impact that you want to
have on the world this is part of my
definition of success obviously is is to
have impact I think my impact is I'm I
want to write things and come up with
ideas and communicate sort of stories
and connections from history that give
people the
that answer that question that we
started with talking about which is like
how do you live you know what how do you
get to the good life
I'm trying to make the things that I
wish that were there for me but that if
they weren't there for me I can make
them for other people so like when
someone says you know like this book
changed my life or when someone says I
don't lead but I read your book that's
the kind of impact so I'm I'm trying to
have impact with people that I feel like
are maybe not well served by the
existing things in the market so I'm
trying to you know trying to make books
that that that help people with life you
know that that's a that's a easy thing
to say it's a hard thing to do but I
feel like I'm chipping away at it all
right guys that to me is exactly what
you're gonna get as you dive into the
world of Bryan Holaday is how do you get
to the good life and that I don't think
that there's a much better question
anybody could be asking and answering
themselves so no matter what it is that
you're trying to do I'm telling you if
you look at the the entire universe of
the books that he puts out there's this
through line that I find incredibly
important which is growth learning
getting better seeking truth and finding
out the answers and even when you take
trust me I'm lying it was the first
really sort of naked raw look at what
was going on and in that book by the way
he thought that was gonna end his career
as a Mideast rat a media strategist not
kick it off and so it was somebody who
really wanted to say this is the truth
of the way the world is so rather than
dealing with the world the way that you
want it to be actually except the way
that it is so when you understand that
book in context if somebody who's
finally just saying look this is the
reality this is the world that we live
in and then you see him follow it up
with stoic philosophy and then you see
him follow it up with meditating on the
ego and it's dangerous and perennial
seller and the daily stoic and all the
things that he's doing it really is all
meant to be taken together as result and
when you do that it really does become
maybe the first movement in a grand book
about how to find the good life I am
obsessed with this guy in ways that you
can't imagine I will leave it at that
guys dive into his world it is
incredible it will help you become a
better
it has certainly helped me become a
better version of myself so if you
haven't already be sure to subscribe my
friends and until next time be legendary
[Applause]
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