Kind: captions
Language: en
I think as a species I think we're
teenagers I think that the decisions we
make in the next 20 years 20 30 years
are going to have enduring consequences
of the sort that previous decisions did
not we need to figure out as a species
what we do with ourselves we need to
figure out how to co-evolved with AI we
need to do all this I currently don't
think as a society we have the literacy
do that everybody welcome to impact
Theory you're here my friends because
you believe that human potential is
nearly limitless but you know that
having potential is not the same as
actually doing something with it so our
goal with this show and company is to
introduce you to the people and ideas
that will help you actually execute on
your dreams all right today's guest is
the modern American rags to riches story
he started with nothing
his dad battled with drug addiction in
the family was so broke that his mother
often had to make his clothes and yet
despite that he would go on to amass
nearly a billion dollars in wealth
my question is how after spending two
years in Ecuador as a Mormon missionary
and seeing just how hard life could get
he returned home with a fresh
perspective and a commitment to spending
the rest of his life improving the lives
of others to that end he started his
first company and paid his own way
through college that early success
however was quickly met with some
crushing failures and the harder he
worked on his businesses the deeper he
seemed to fall into depression a
depression that would threaten to take
his life nearly every day for an entire
decade always willing to do the hard
things however he persevered and in 2007
believing that he saw a way to disrupt
the multi-billion dollar payment
processing industry he founded Braintree
as a solo founder and with only the
money he could save himself he grew
Braintree into a beast that was twice
named to the Inc 500 list of the fastest
growing companies in America and was
ultimately sold to PayPal for 800
million dollars giving him the resources
he needed to make good and his promise
to build a better future armed of the
belief that would the
right tools of creation we can author
any world we want he has thrown himself
into solving the grandest challenges
that we face as a species he's pledged
two hundred million dollars of his own
money to building the tools required to
expand our cognitive capabilities
through his company kernel and through
his investment house OS fund he is set
out to radically extend human life by
backing the scientists and inventors
that aimed to benefit all of humanity by
rewriting the very operating system of
life so please help me in welcoming the
man who was climbed Mount Kilimanjaro
climbed out of depression become a pilot
started a family and written a
children's book all while building some
of the most audacious companies in the
world Brian Johnson it is so cool to
have you here you were one of the people
that was like on our fantasy list
because of your involvement in XPrize
and the connection to Peter I was very
aware of what you were working on and
thought it would be amazing to get you
on here essentially to ask one question
how do you think how did you go from
where you started to where you are now
it's it's a pretty incredible bridge to
cross I guess the first time I really
thought about how to think about life
was when I was 21 when I returned from
doing a mission in Ecuador and it
occurred to me I was making very big
decisions on what to study in school
what kind of job to get how did in my
life because once you set on that
trajectory it's harder to change and so
there was one question that mattered to
me
among all which was how could I create
the most value of the species it was the
only question that I cared about I
didn't care about making money I didn't
care about retired at 65 was just that
single question and that led me on the
path that I went on but it wasn't
obvious initially to me so what I did is
I looked around in the world to try to
evaluate what I could find so I can see
you could go to Africa and help people
who were in poverty or you could I'll
work at the United Nations
you know Council with the students at
school but I'd really didn't find
anything that spoke to me that was a
good fit and so I thought I'll become an
entrepreneur I'll make a whole bunch of
money by the age of 30 I mean in my mind
it was like of course I'll do that it
just didn't
kirtaniyah wouldn't be possible but it
happened I got lucky and I got to the
point where I could then ask the
question what do I do
and it's been a markable experience and
I feel tremendously grateful to be in
the position I'm in and hopefully
something useful turns out from it so
you've talked a lot about assumption
stacks well first what is an assumption
stack and then what was your assumption
stack pre Ecuador and post I think an
assumption that could be revealed for
example if somebody inquires of advice
and they say please tell me give me
advice about your life and I think of
those situations the best advice to is
to not give advice because in doing so
you conveyed to another person
everything you've learned in your entire
life and you also include your biases
your blind spots things that are
particular to you and so you actually do
someone a disservice I think in many
ways by giving them advice because you
almost bury them in your information and
they accept those assumptions which
gives them less a lot less of an
opportunity to come up with something
novel and unique in their own regard and
so I think in trying to improve how I
think over the years every time I make a
given I make a given judgment or I make
an it I understand I realize I'm
thinking about a given thing I'll ask
myself why did I arrive at that
particular conclusion and what's behind
it and you can usually grow back why why
I like four or five times and then for
some example I think the best story
about this is I told this a lot of
Braintree is you have five monkeys in
the room and so there's a basket of
bananas at this ladder and when a monkey
tries to go up the ladder to get the
bananas they're all sprayed with cold
water and so the monkeys soon learn if
they go up the ladder to get the bananas
they'll go straight of cold water if
they stop the behavior so they pull out
one monkey put a new monkey and then new
monkeys okay bananas so it runs up it
gets frayed and so soon you have this
scenario where a new monkeys put in and
when it tries to run the ladder all the
monkeys grab the monkey before it goes
up to pull it so they don't get sprayed
a cool but cold water but soon none of
the monkeys have been have actually been
sprayed to cold water to learn the
behavior is if a monkey goes up grab it
before it goes up so a new monkey comes
in and they say o wise one ye who have
been here for years
tell me why do you not go to the basket
and that one monkey with that question
can make the entire assumption stack of
that monkey colony collapse by asking a
single question and so many give things
like that are true in life if you just
ask these questions you can just
collapse entire systems what are some
questions like that the us coming back
from Ecuador if you could develop do one
thing in your entire life and to create
the most value for the human race what
would you do that's a pretty powerful
question it's interesting so you and I
were talking before the camera started
rolling in in some ways we're pointing
at the same thing and coming at it from
very different angles I would say but
with some of the same assumptions about
belief system belief system matters the
example do you give the monkeys is is so
incredible and I think really gets at
that issue I believe that all of the
beliefs that we have that govern our
world the way that we look at it and how
we proceed are malleable changeable is
that a thesis that you share as well
it is latter person so I'm trying to
imagine a kid growing up somewhat
impoverished did that give you a
scarcity mindset were you thinking like
Oh making money is hard and then what
was it about that experience that was so
transformative that it it shakes
everything I was taught to be a
responsible child a responsible person
in society and so for example when my
parents split my mom was a single mother
with five kids we didn't have money so
you mentioned she made clothes for me go
to school and when I was at school I
figured out that I could buy a day-old
croissant for ten cents if a post lunch
and so what I'd do I made a deal to the
lunch lady where I would clean the
tables and pay ten cents and get this
croissant and then I didn't have to cash
my mom's check that she'd written for
twenty-five dollars for a monthly fee to
say for the 25 dollars a month so I
didn't for a month or two my mom finally
found out and I think she was partly
embarrassed like you my child was not
eating lunch at school and everyone
think there's something wrong with the
family but to me that just made sense
that it was my that's the way I could
contribute to my family has saved my mom
twenty-five dollars a month in my in my
lunch via school and I guess I've always
felt that sense of responsibility which
my my parents did a nice job of teaching
that some of the things you're doing
with your kids I sound really abnormal
hey let's start with that but also just
really incredibly you said that you've
started companies with your kids yeah
and what I'm trying to to get at is
don't give advice right because you're
passing on your blind spots you're some
writing stacks and all of that and that
becomes limiting in its own way like
even if you're trying to be as expansive
as possible you are passing on those
limitations and basically at this point
in my life I essentially give advice for
a living so it's really interesting to
look at this from the potential downside
and the problems and I'm always looking
for okay how do we improve this to
really impact people especially the
people I care most about are people that
are antagonistic to change yeah so yeah
what is it about like starting a
business with your kids or writing the
book with your kids like is that your
way of making them think through their
own problems and the ATV example might
hint at something yeah that's true
that's a good example I wanted them to
learn how to drive an ATV and we were up
in the canyon and I gave them 30 seconds
of instructions and here's the brakes
like the front brake the back brake
here's how you accelerate here are a few
things you may not want to do for
example if you get on a hill and it's
too steep you may roll that's not
desirable I'll put you in trouble so a
few general guidelines but it was 30
seconds of instruction and I said go I
go figure out how to drive an ATV and
then when you return I want you to tell
me your thought processes how did you
assess risk what did you do and win how
did you solve problems when they
encountered so they came back and they
did that they walked me through three
minutes and their thought process and
the brothers were messing with each
other I know you'd like draw up the hill
faster than you almost ran into that
tree and like they but I actually saw
their thought process of how they
actually deconstructed their experience
and how they could gain knowledge from
it and to me that was satisfactory is
that they felt accountable to me to
deconstruct how they thought as an
exercise that has utility in itself and
I didn't say anything to them about
their lessons they just simply know that
that is their opportunity to learn how
to think it's interesting so I think a
lot about the future and how rapidly
it's going to come and so we're despite
what I think we look like to the outside
world right now we view ourselves as a
creative
so we make content we're actually making
a comic book right now that centers
around what happens if AI comes faster
than we think and there's this rush of
joblessness and there's an adverse
reaction to that you know how do we
think through those problems and so
thinking about your concept of being
able to author the world that we want
knowing that the future is coming at us
really fast you'll even likened it to
like a stage five hurricane or something
that's gonna really hit us hard how do
you think about that is that something
that you think a lot about I know that
you're you're really looking towards
what new economies are going to look
like and things so how do you use what
you're talking about now of experience
experience being our most profound
teacher so that we don't get the
assumptions from the previous set of
monkeys but with a world that's coming
so fast we can't experience it that's
right I would say that as a society we
we acknowledge literacy is a high value
thing we to learn to be able to
collectively read and write empowers
everybody because we can communicate
ideas have debates share knowledge
there's another form of literacy I don't
think we have and that is future
literacy and so talking about your
mental models and frameworks future
literacy is a mental model and it's a
way in which we try to understand the
future and it packed in that is knowing
that when we think about the future we
are crushed by our biases we have this
poster in the wall at work which is 188
categorized biases like all the things
your brain does that makes it run so
well I need some examples I mean so for
example like confirmation bias is one
that people know or familiarity bias and
there of all sorts we collapse
information based upon our priorities or
how we're primed we just understanding
how cognitively impaired we are as
humans is a form of enlightenment and
even when you explain to somebody how
these biases work my experience have
been the first thing they say is I know
I know so many people
like that they're oblivious to the fact
that they have these impairments and
then if you start deconstructing them in
their thought processes you actually
open up this window and they get accept
it and say wow I could actually not see
the world the way it really is I maybe
have these blind spots maybe I've got
these that's I think when enlightenment
opens up any Socrates of course famously
said like I'm the most wise person in
the world because I acknowledge I know
nothing it's a different way of saying
that and I forget where we were on this
question but I think the that the first
thing is this humility to achieve this
higher level of enlightenment to
understand while we are top of the food
chain right now and while we are
impressive the species it could be the
case that we are an extremely primitive
primitive form of intelligence and that
we would look back upon ourselves in
twenty years from now and be aghast and
saying how did we deal with the world
unbelievable that that's that's a bias
we just can't extend our thinking beyond
heart and the heart what we're familiar
with a couple things on that so one
really intriguing story that you told
about your girlfriend who was composing
music using AI and you said a human
musician will never surprise for the way
that an AI can what do you mean by that
when you and I had this conversation we
we both come from a similar background
where we grew up in the United States
like were both white we both have
there's there's similar things that we
share in common therefore our
conversation has a certain bound of
surprise I'm it's unlikely I'm going to
say something that can just like shock
you out of your chair because you're
pretty familiar with with my rough
structure of intelligence but an
artificial intelligence is an entirely
foreign form of intelligence and while
we try to build our values and our
intelligence into that thing it's not
necessary if you just let it run that
the output is going to be what we expect
and so what is interesting is the true
value of AI is not that it is a it is a
task rabbit the value of AI it is an ACO
evolutionary partner that is a different
form of intelligence that when we start
Kolia völva ng with it it's going to
radically change our intelligence and
that's what I think most people
miss in this conversation is the whole
AI competition thing is wrong anyways it
2017 was a year of Chicken Little like
we're all so scared about AI nut ran
away whether we like it or not
ai is essential to our survival we
cannot manage the complexity role
without it number one number two is
going back to our biases and then the
challenge we have is our intelligence if
humanity were a stock I would short it I
do not think our cognitive abilities are
equal to the challenges we face and only
through this co-evolutionary approach
where we can actually amplify our
intelligence do we have a shot and so
going back to my girlfriend's the
creation of music when she's playing
with this AI going back and forth in
this co-evolutionary process it can give
her beats that she would never get from
another human because it's combined all
kinds of things that are foreign to us
and so that beauty in that co-creative
process but we have to acknowledge that
I get through the whole different topic
but we have to acknowledge the rate in
which arrow artificial intelligence is
improving and no matter what someone
believes whether they think it's an
exponential curve a punctuated
equilibrium where you know stepping or
whether it's like straight up it's up
and to the right and if you look at
Native human ability not we have better
tools we are flatlined so you have one
like going up and the others like this
and so it doesn't require a ton of
analysis to say there may be something
about I'm looking to right here it's
really interesting dude so one you're
one of the few people that are talking
about the very notion of human
intelligence you're certainly the only
person that I've come across that's
talking about the that I would short
humanity if it were a stock which I love
I think that's really fascinating and
the comic book that we're working on is
about a guy that is reanimated so he's
cryogenically frozen long story but he's
reanimated in the only way they can do
that is by replacing the parts of his
brain that were destroyed to cancer with
a chip and so he has to like am I still
human like what does it mean but now
he's augmenta Baldauf grade his
intelligence and what does that mean
what are the effects of that and so it's
really interesting to me when you marry
the concept that you have
future illiteracy is terrifying for one
reason it is an absolute must and we
don't have the ability to really
accurately predict a future right and so
looking at where you're putting your
money into especially Colonel it's it's
pretty fascinating that on two levels
one that you as a person are willing to
allow yourself to face something so
difficult to say I'm going to take this
challenge on and then to the if you're
right you're able to do this that that
notion of coevolution so bringing all of
that together what does our future
literacy look like what are the steps
that you're trying to take at Colonel
that are going to help us get to a
positive future if I could I'd like to
ask you a question sure if as humans we
love to make plans we did a plan to do
this together we have plans for social
events we have plans to have kids in to
retire like we plan our entire lives out
as a species what is our plan yes so
what are the plans you've heard about
that you like going to Mars okay I think
that and that value is that's pretty
cool that value and monetary value why
is that a compelling plan for the
species
what I find interesting about it is the
spirit of adventure I'm so inspired by
people that look at Grand Challenges
that it inspires me to dream bigger to
push harder but it it is that it is
inspiration more than I think a
necessity now other people will tell you
it's important that we become a
multiplanetary species so that something
that wipes us out here can't wipe us out
there I don't put a lot of stock in that
but I get the point
okay let's say we succeed we put some
people on Mars we we knock it on the
park and we get a million people on Mars
what else like what's are their plans
after the the seven point or I guess
eight billion of us by that point of us
here what's our plan beyond what you're
doing not a lot well extending human
life and things like that but yeah it's
not exactly clear so I guess the plans
I hear that Marge is one that we have
that contemplation to is minimum basic
income where it's like you we wave the
white flag and you see like yeah we just
can't cope anymore
we need money and then you have the
singlet Aryans were like
we're just gonna merge with AI in like
roughly 20 30 years and it's gonna be
awesome
but how we get there we have no idea I
don't hear practical plans on how we
solve the problems in front of us
other than we just keep on grinding away
two things we're doing and have these
debates that's what concerns me and
that's why I come back in future
literacy is I'm not suggesting I have
the answers but what I am suggesting is
that if we could develop future literacy
as a mental model to think about it we
may do things differently we may be more
introspective and we may be able to
start contemplating successive steps in
advance so I know that you've recently
written an article about this which I've
had the good fortune of reading and one
of the things that I was most struck by
is you talking and for people to
understand this you're gonna have to lay
out exactly why privacy matters so much
and that we can actually assign it a
financial value which I had never once
thought of yeah and that you believe
that privacy should be a fundamental
human right so how does privacy have a
monetary value and and you're talking
like serious legislation like this
actually needs to happen why is that so
important the the privacy debate that
most people are familiar with is we do
things online and with our phones and
companies capture that information and
people say I hate that because they
invade my privacy it makes me feel
uncomfortable
some people are like I don't care
because I get better services because I
do it and people like I have nothing to
hide that's like roughly where we've
hovered but I think it's actually the
wrong debate and this is the reason why
is the sci-fi author Frederik Pohl has
said that it's the sci-fi authors job to
not identify the automobile is to
predict the traffic jam so where is the
traffic jam in the continuation of our
existing privacy practices and there's a
few one is human value like we the
reason why we you and I have value it
for three things one is our data that's
everything about us that's the coffee we
drink and what we like it with almond or
soy or cow milk
it's where we drive is our driving data
it's how we metabolize things it's what
we think it's how we solve problems its
worry it's everything about us is data
number two is the predictive value of
that data so that's what Facebook and
Google build the business is on is they
acquire data from you and they build
models to then create predictive models
of you and advertisers are like hey I'm
an advertising I know what you want and
so they create this loop where you are
giving data and they're giving you
nudges and you're doing the nudge and
you're basically living in their
algorithm matrix-style a second and the
third is our cognitive abilities and the
marketplace for that would be my
employer so if I agree to be paid fifty
thousand dollars a year that employer
values my entire cognitive skill set at
$50,000 a year that includes my physical
what I can do physically mentally and
all the above and the problem is that's
our economic value as a human we are
giving most of that away for free so you
would give it to Facebook we give it to
Google we give it to everyone around us
and so if you take the natural
progression where what they're doing it
today so a Facebook can make if the if
the digital advertisers make $250 a year
on a per person to advertise that's
peanuts what they really want to do oh I
get the highest potential is to create a
digital avatar of you so now imagine in
if we take this privacy out I have a
neural interface so I think about the
socks of course I'm building their owner
faces and now imagine they can see every
thought you have they can see how you
solve problems they have they see your
total saw sequence they know what you
know how you know when you think of how
you think it and they build it into
their model it wouldn't take it's not a
big leap to imagine they take your data
they build a predictive algorithm and
they build an avatar of you that is as
good as being you as you are and then in
30 minutes they're gonna make a better
version of you
now with this model we have in the US
now what they really want is your salary
so right now they make a couple bucks
per user but if you're paid $50,000 a
year and they create a digital version
of you that can do your job there's
nothing stopping them and building these
avatars putting them in virtual worlds
and augmented worlds selling them out as
tasks rabbits that's the value of mining
the data
building intelligence all right so let's
get really specific on this so are you
saying so and let me back up a little
bit so your company Colonel right now
today this is one of the notes I took
this technology is here this is not a
future tech you did something with a
pocket he had Parkinson's right deep
brain stimulation had Parkinson's you
have him turn odds off and seizures
so had him turn it on and off and you
see him lose control and he like can
hardly talk and then he gains control
again just by flipping the switch on and
off so deep brain stimulation is here
it's real you guys are doing it are you
saying that we will act actively be able
to build a whole brain AI based on the
firing patterns of that particular mind
and so what I'm saying is right now if a
company like Facebook demonstrated their
predictive algorithms about you about
everything you've acquired about you we
already they've already show cases
they've showed off and they said we know
you better than your significant other
knows you right they've said that and so
they've already built a predictive model
of you now if they acquire more data for
example your neural interface and they
can see your thoughts it's only a matter
of time before they can actually
replicate you that's where privacy takes
that's why human by privacy needs to be
a human right because privacy is the
right to own your own value these ideas
are like brand I'm just working on them
for the past couple weeks so they're
still not as tight as I'd like them to
be but I'll try to make this concise
three other ideas one is the
continuation of our current privacy
standards could lead to the most extreme
forms of inequality we've ever imagined
and the reason why is because once you
get someone's a billow and you get
creative break the value that person no
longer has value in society but the
algorithm people would do build enormous
value so you basically have two casts of
people you have people who can pay for
privacy they're protected and you have
people who are the predictable who live
in the matrix style algorithms who are
nudged to wherever they want to go and
so we think economic inequalities are we
just today privacy inequality is
are worse in dehumanizing people in the
instability created society and the
abuse that it creates for the potential
number two is the value of data
increases exponentially over time so
imagine you had a voice recording from
somebody from 1988 and you listened to
voice recording just three minutes from
that recording you could probably
determine the person's age their gender
rough approximation of their education
etc right just rough approximation so
you take that same data set and you
apply it to an algorithm develop today
not only could it do these things those
orders of magnitude more accuracy but it
could also predict your mental health
well how so that's so that's where it's
headed now you you can listen to a voice
record like these these algorithms were
ran against Reagan's speeches they could
detect his mental illness two years
before they diagnosed it and so that's
the same data center so Reagan spoke
then they that's the same data set now
if you take that same data set and apply
better algorithms tomorrow then what's
what can they break then can they tell
if you were lying can they dissect your
personality into a hundred and sixteen
different classifiers and so the point
is that while people may think this is
like really far in the future there's
already enough data out there on you
already through your videos and your
writing that someone could probably
create an extremely good avatar of you
on how you think how you talk how you
process information it's already
happening it's already there and so
that's why this is urgent that privates
becoming human right cuz you have to own
your own value otherwise someone else is
gonna do your job yeah I mean when all
the like oh the Russian bots are
influencing people and all that first
sort of happened I literally know what
are they even talking about but now
getting a sense of that they act like
real humans they respond like creating
the right tweets that you once you're in
a digital world you can't tell exactly
that's what's really freaky and like as
somebody who creates content and engages
with my community I think about that
sometimes like what percentage of these
are real people and what percentage like
how often am I talking to a bot it's so
interesting have you read Matt Ridley is
the rational optimist I know other I
have think I've read it you'll disagree
with it fundamentally because that
basically the argument that you
laid out is exactly his argument which
is hey we've solved things in the past
you can't look at you know whatever
200,000 years of human evolution and
always getting better always brighter
future and say oh but tomorrow is going
to be different whereas you guys take
the exact reverse approach the thing
that I find interesting in and what I
really want to go hard on now is it
takes a really particular kind of person
thinking in a really particular kind of
way to make Moore's Law happen and I'll
explain what I mean so Moore's law has
been technology doubles and power and
halves in price every 18 months roughly
and it's been happening for whatever 58
years so what no one ever talks about in
that they make it sound like it just
happens like oh if we walked away and
everyone went to Mars that Moore's law
it's like going back on earth which of
course it wouldn't it's Moore's law says
more about human determination than it
says about just some sort of natural law
like humans decide they're gonna push
that hard and it just happens to take
roughly that long the moment human
stopped pushing that hard then it's
gonna break down so to me you're the
reason Matt Ridley is right and I think
that you are going to solve these
problems it's gonna be hard as hell and
if you weren't absolutely convinced that
it was all gonna go to hell in a
handbasket unless you stepped in it
really would go tell in a handbasket but
because there's something in the human
psyche where there are some people and
what I'm hoping you can give us is to
take what it is that makes you step up
to that problem go this is my problem to
solve and make it an infectious idea
that will infect the thinking of the
people watching the show because the
more people that go no one else is going
to solve this this is my problem yeah
that's when it gets interesting so how
on earth did you like literally think
for a second I'm gonna show you what you
look like from the outside you were an
underprivileged kid growing up in
nowhere USA you had no earthly right to
become a successful entrepreneur you
certainly had no right to be the kid
that when the guy approached you to sell
the phone service went after two days
actually I'm gonna get people to sell
this for me if this guy can get me to do
it for him why can I get people to do it
for me
then you take 48 hours go start your own
company and actually get people to do it
never having done anything like that in
the past so but you do all of those
things and you do all of those things
because you're you understand one one
fundamental principle which you've
already given to dear viewer which is
assumption stacks ask the question why
until they all fall away and you realize
you can do what you want to do but how
do we get more people to pick up the
Assumption stack falls how do we get
them to pick up start their own company
or whatever it doesn't need to be that
but that they take ownership of these
big problems hmm like how are you gonna
do with your kids I explained these
ideas to my kids
and they get them before I finish the
sentence that's astonishing they do and
I spoke to my my son's high school last
week and walked through all my roughly
the same things we're talking about now
about the future and I guess two things
happened one is the number of comments I
got from the group of like wait what
like that exists in the world and there
are people who think like that and these
are ideas that can be considered it I've
received I don't know 25 emails and
people are like I've changed the way I
think about the world based upon this
conversation and then number two is that
the system they're in for schooling them
is not even close to being equipped to
prepare them for the future
it's there's such a massive disconnect
between how we prepare people for the
future on what they actually do and so
when people are saying what do I do with
my life like I'm not surprised that
they're on the end of this system that
they've learned how to think that way
and it's a very big problem I guess I
I'm sufficiently self-aware to realize
that I may seem out there to a lot of
people I mean or maybe I should say it
stronger like I am out there and people
make that observation about me and I
look at the world and I think the world
is insane I oftentimes feel like I don't
understand why they think the way they
think
and to me the only thing that matters is
the differentiation between finite games
and infinite games this is an idea by
James cars' where a finite game is a
game where you have a beginning and an
ending so basketball right and the only
purpose of that game is to win so you do
whatever you have to do to score more
points to be winner an infinite game is
a game where all you care about is to
keep on playing we don't care who wins
it just want to keep on playing the game
and to me when you ask yourself a
question what do I do in life the only
output that's sensible to me is anything
that contributes to infinite games I
love life I love playing the game of
life I don't want that to stop so if I
see something that's going to
potentially stop my gameplay I
identified like hey that thing needs to
be solved I don't know how we could be
oriented any other way what's
interesting is you went through a decade
of depression where you were oriented an
entirely different way how did you find
your way out of that I was 24 I remember
the day my brain broke I remember the
day I start a depression and I would lay
in my bed and just want to die they just
I didn't want to exist I wanted an
anesthesiologist to come and give me a
shot it's like my soul adjust and at the
time I was in a belief system where
there was an afterlife and so that
wasn't possible you couldn't get you
couldn't be gone you were around forever
no matter what you did and in fact if
you took your life you would you're not
behaving in a way that this belief
system and you know rewards you and so I
was trapped in existence and it was the
worst feeling the entire world so I had
no out but not only that I had kids if I
had you know like I felt responsible for
being a father and so I was building
brain tree and you know I had challenges
at home with my significant other and I
had kids who are sleeping I was like
myself working 24/7 having companies
break and like all the pressure and it
just drove me into the ground to a point
I just I was
just delirious I mean I was I was broke
and so I climbed Mount Kilimanjaro at
the tail end of the situation and I got
sick I got a stomach virus and like
three or four days in and I had the
virus for a couple days plus I was out I
was sick with altitude sickness and I
just felt terrible like the worst I've
ever felt and we got to Basecamp and
there were 15,000 something and I had to
make a decision where he's gonna climb
to the top the next morning and I
thought let's do it like I'm not gonna
back down from this and so I did it and
the four hours the summit changed my
life where the mountain became my
problem and it became a presentation of
my life and I started this in two mmm my
favorite artist and um his um his
defiance against uh problems anyways I
made at the top and I just put down
cried out and it was like it was the
mountain was my depression it was my
marriage it was my belief system and um
I went home and I was changed I sold I I
sold my company shortly after Braintree
I got a divorce
I left my religion and I was back at my
21 year old age and I said Who am I like
what how do i rewrite myself from
scratch what I care about what matters
what exists what's true what's not true
all how did you rebuild yourself like
what is that process of answering those
questions everything I'm doing now is
the answer
so the Mormonism you know it it still is
the best story I've ever heard a motel
it's like if you obey these rules
you get an unbelievably awesome
afterlife it's just like anything you
suppose you could ever imagine and more
in fact we can't even imagine it's so
awesome
is we're told and all you have to do is
obey the rules like super clean I get
that and when I was taken away from me
it's like well okay so if there's not an
afterlife where is there not to life I
don't know what do I do
and that's why infinite games is the
only thing that makes sense to me is I
grew up with this idea that I could
continue to play games forever I want to
play games forever how do you define
play right now this is fun it's
meaningful it that guy fill it deeply
right you're enjoyable to talk to being
on set with your team it's fun
this is play you know when I was
researching you and you kept bringing
that notion up of playing games of
finding something that you enjoy and I
just thought that's like that's my
mission in life quite frankly is to help
people find that thing that gives them
more energy than it takes that they can
enjoy it and I always tell people that I
live in the friction between I really
want to live forever and thanks to
people like you I actually think I've
got a shot but I know I could have an
aneurysm right now in the middle of this
episode I could be diagnosed with cancer
tomorrow like I fully understand the
realities that I may not but I don't
understand when you say that you think
people are crazy when I hear people say
it like they actively want to die at
some point I literally sounds crazy to
me I don't understand and that just
tells me that you don't enjoy your today
but why their answer would be to die
instead of change their today I will
never it's it it reveals human cognition
the idea that if someone says they want
to be immortal or they want to live
forever
I don't say that specifically it'll say
that because it triggers people I want
to play and so the frame I work with is
if you say to somebody do you want to
live forever
it basically crushes the human mind if
you were like no I mean I would get
bored because all they can do is imagine
the future like it is today and one I
think that's totally false I think that
we are the most primitive form of
intelligence we can imagine and that the
moment we begin opening up our cognitive
expanse there's an existence that if we
knew we could get to we would do
anything in the entire world to get to
so that's one number two is I don't have
to think about like a thousand years now
all I can think about is I care about
being around tomorrow because I got
stuff to do and I'm excited about it and
I have great relationships and I have
fun things planned for the weekend
that's all it is and so what point in
time are you gonna say if someone says I
don't live forever it's like okay well
do you wanna live tomorrow
well yeah I got stuff to do what about
next Monday yeah what about in 20 years
yeah like if you March if you walk it
out like if you go day by day at what
point in time is something to be like
I'm good if their health is good and
they feel and they're you know they're
taken care of in life at one point in
time to get the tonight o'clock at night
you're like all right man let's sign off
I'm good I think it goes back to to what
that moment is I think it goes back to a
deeper underlying issue of something
that you've talked more you've used the
right words to reach my soul I will say
and that is that with the right tools
and we're living through the moment
where these are really real we can
author any world we want I know that you
have painted at your company Harry
Potter and Gandalf and the wizard with
their wands to the sky and it just says
dream yeah and tell us about that and
what is world creation and what does all
that means I did that for my children
there were there images that they
identify but the point is the authors of
those two epic stories Lord of the Rings
and Harry Potter started with a blank
slate and they created entire worlds
that we inhabited yeah my thinking is
people that think there's some point in
the future where they want to tap out
they don't believe they can author their
own life they don't believe that they
can create anything they don't hit the
problem that you
it was just looking at so to give people
context you held those with 12 dinners
ever a year or two years and had the
brightest minds you could think of come
in and and identify like what the
biggest problems were that that we face
and none of them said the brain yeah
that's right and that like that moment
for you was a moment of action it was a
moment of okay well if no one is
thinking about it and I know it to be
the right answer then I have to do it
most people don't even if they had the
realization that nobody's looking at the
problems that I really believe need to
be solved they feel powerless yeah
is there anything so when you go your
kids are in public school right yeah
which I found very surprising but so
your kids are in public school you go
and counter them the breadth of
parenting going on behind the scenes I'm
sure is diverse to say the least so when
you see the ones that struggle with a
limiting belief system that their
parents have handed to you I remember
growing up and while my parents didn't
say this a lot of my friends parents
said it life's a [ __ ] and you know
every day is just another day or life's
of [ __ ] sandwich and every day is
another bite and that you just heard
that over and over and over and I
thought that was so funny and I remember
thinking wow that's a really dumb thing
to like repeat and repeat and repeat so
do you have a way to help kids that are
in a mentality like that get out I think
that the best thing is just to ask them
questions help them discover they think
that way for a certain reason let's go
back to the the a TV thing what do you
do you think that people parents
especially think you're a little bit
crazy to let your kids and like how do
you judge like so your question to them
was what was your thinking how do you
judge you know risk and reward
how are you judging that as a parent who
I'm sure would be beyond crestfallen if
your kid got hurt yeah so did my
children have their friends over the
house and we regularly do a lot of
things and I'm always apprehensive
because I don't know what their parents
think
about the situation but the basically
the normal boundaries we have in society
bore me to death and if I'm stuck in
that system I just can't deal with it
because I find joy everywhere not in a
box and that's the same with my children
and the example I think about is my
daughter was planning a park and there's
that there merry-go-round is going
around this big metal thing and she was
gonna run up to it and grab one of these
things and it's very obvious if she
grabs it he's gonna like slam her into
the ground because the forest far
exceeds her weight and she was with
another child and they both marched
forward and I saw it happening I thought
this is great she's gonna learn a really
important lesson about moving objects
and there was a mom adjacent to me and
her child ran there and she ran and
grabbed her child and pulled her away
and my daughter went up and start like
touching the things and it's filling it
out I was really impressed that you you
got it like you understand how dye can
roll your way in to capture a moment of
motion and that mother probably thought
I was extremely responsible which maybe
I was but to me that seemed sensible
that she had the opportunity to learn
that lesson I know that's a you know
that lesson we learned it somehow and
it's probably likely someone told us we
probably experienced it so I guess we're
going back to high school kids aware
that we the other people in life is just
asking them questions where you at why
are you there what's supporting that
that assumption stack and we're work we
go if we break it all apart how far will
you let your kids deviate from the norm
of go to high school get good grades
graduate go to college how far we let
them deviate before you nudge them back
in none they can do whatever they want
I've told them so many times that the
way in which they spend their time at
school is not how I would do it if I was
running the system and that they have
options in life so I don't want them to
be to think that the systems are
delivered as a foregone conclusion and
the rules are changing extremely fast
and so whatever they want to do I'm just
very supportive people charting their
own path
and why send them to public school
that's obviously a choice
you could certainly send them to private
and build your own University if you
wanted to is there something to gain and
having to figure that out
in a potentially suboptimal system
they've got to make their own way in
life I don't give them a handout that's
interesting do you plan to let them
inherit your wealth so I I've gone
through a couple evolutions on
evolutions on this thought process when
I was building Braintree I get credit
trust for them and I put some stock in
there and it became worth quite a bit so
they do have some money in a trust and
they know that but they also know that
we have an agreement on how they deal
with money and resources and so they
will like we went out shopping and my
son this like two Saturdays ago and he
looked at her shirt he said dad I really
want this shirt but I think the price
points a bit too high and I think if I
got this I would be spoiled so I'm not
gonna do this so great let's go find
something else and they understand that
the moment they cross a threshold with
me where they feel entitled or they can
somehow do something else then it stops
and they have self managed and of course
like they have other kids stuff but we
have a relationship we never fight
they're never in trouble we get along
remarkably well and we do have this open
dialogue they know exactly how much
money I have they know they've seen my
bank accounts they know the investments
they know the deals they know everything
I so I'd chose a path of transparency
and said like here's the game cares how
I'm playing it now like you do your
thing but I believe that they need to
carve their own way their own life and
if I can be useful to them and work with
them and help them think through
problems cool that I just don't think
it's in their best interest for me to
soften the blow in life all right before
I ask my last question working these
guys find you online I wish the answer
was a neural interface
[Laughter]
coming soon yeah yeah I guess on the in
and the neural interface I guess the
question would be like what how would I
communicate how to find my neural
interface but yeah Twitter is my most
public interface just at Brian Brian
John Bryan underscore Johnson yeah with
a why everybody with a while yeah
awesome
all right my last question what is the
impact that you want to have in the
world I think as a species
I think we're teenagers I think that the
decisions we make in the next 20 years
20 30 years are going to have enduring
consequences of the sort that previous
decisions did not we need to figure out
as a species what we do with ourselves
we need to figure out how to co-evolved
with AI we need to figure out how the
problems that could that it could
threaten our extinction one extinct us
we need to figure out how to avoid an
anarchic society we need to figure out
how to avoid it this topic society we
need to do all this in a span of it's a
couple decades and I currently don't
think as a society we have the literacy
to do that and so what I hope is that
more people will sign up to become
future literate in all its various forms
and that we collectively acknowledge the
importance of our time because I think
if we don't we are going to be
blindsided and it's gonna be painful and
regretful if we lose our chance because
we can build an existence that's
remarkable beyond anything any of us
could imagine I'm convinced of it and I
hope that enough people will rally
behind that in all their different forms
and that we have sufficient momentum to
do it so I hope I can be a part of that
group
all of that awesome fine thank you so
much for being on the show guys if you
take nothing else away from this
interview I hope you will take the
following because it is the single most
profound thing you will ever find in the
show it is the most interesting thing
that I've ever found in any of the human
beings that I ever meet and that is when
you reach something that seems
impossible that seems daunting but it
seems important will you act and in the
face of that regardless of where he
started you guys know my obsession it
does not matter where you start it only
matters who you want to become and the
price you're willing to pay to get there
and this man has not only paid an
extraordinary price not only gone on to
do extraordinary things but with that he
does not retire from the world and
backtrack and go away he makes good on
the promise that he said which is he's
going to dedicate his life to helping
improve the lives of others and looking
at the grandest challenges that we face
as a species and being willing to act in
the face of that that to me is what this
infinite game is all about are you
willing to take action are you willing
to be the author of your own life are
you willing to realize that you can
create the tools with which we can
create the world that we want to build
but you've got to be willing to face the
hard things you've got to be willing to
push through the depressions the hard
times the failures all of that to get to
the other side and in this precious few
people that do that it is virtually
nobody that does that at the scale that
this man does it so I hope that you guys
were as inspired as I was all right if
you haven't already be sure to subscribe
and until next time my friends be
legendary take care
[Applause]
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