Kind: captions
Language: en
Ultimately, your concept of yourself is
built out of the narratives that we
create out of our experience. So all of
the experiences that I've had or all the
experiences that you have, your idea of
Tom is just this vast collection of
narratives that you've constructed
around your own experiences. And it's
layer on top of layer on top of layer on
top of layer. And your feeling brain has
a certain veilance for those
experiences. And so if you want to
change how you feel about yourself, you
have to start peeling back those layers
of narrative and and start getting down
into the deepest earliest ones because
those are often the most impactful and
influential.
Well, you can't leave us with just that.
So, how do we begin peeling back those
layers, man?
[Music]
Hey everybody, welcome to Impact Theory.
Today's guest is the New York Times
best-selling author of the international
smash hit, The Subtle Art of Not Giving
a [ __ ] His book, which many consider to
be the generation defining self-help
book, sold millions of copies, was
translated into 25 languages and
absolutely dominated the bestseller list
for a staggering amount of time. It's
also been at or near the top of Amazon's
most read list continuously since the
chart began, and it remains one of the
most downloaded audio books of all time
on Audible. He's also written for or
been cited by some of the most
prestigious outlets on the planet
including Time, CNN, BBC News, Business
Insider, Yahoo News, The Huffington
Post, and many, many more. Additionally,
he's published hundreds of blog
articles, which are viewed by millions
of people every month, making him one of
the most visible and studied authors of
our time. So, please help me in
welcoming the founder and CEO of
Infinity Squared Media, the author of
the recent book Everything Is [ __ ] a
book about hope, Mark Manson.
Welcome to the show.
Thanks.
That's a that's a nice intro. I should
uh should have you do my my PR. I'd be
happy to do it, man. Look, the stats are
staggering. So, putting something like
that together is pretty easy. Yeah.
Um it's I'm sure that kind of thing
really took you by surprise, but what
you've done with it in terms of really
um giving some self-help that is very
direct and just sort of says it like it
is in a voice that I think people can
relate to is is really amazing and I'm
super excited to have you here and go
into some of these topics.
Yeah, it's good to be here.
Especially the new book which I think is
lovely. Everything is [ __ ] That's a
nice title. Certainly uh catches your
attention. The thing that I found most
interesting is the talk about values and
like how much values begin to inform
your identity and basically your values
are essentially who you are.
Yes.
Take us into that.
What does it mean? And then how much
malleability is there in values?
Sure.
So my my focus in my work has always
been value focused. Um, I feel like in
the self-help and self-development
world, there's so much focus on success,
you know, getting ahead in your career,
starting a business, making more money,
having better relationships, but
nobody's actually standing back and
defining what success is. Like, is our
definition of success valuable or not?
Um, and I think especially in today's,
you know, crazy internet world where
we're exposed to everything, um,
deciding what we're choosing to define
as success is is a more important
question than ever before. Um, so that's
kind of what got me started on the whole
value question in general. And then when
I started investigating it and doing a
lot of research and writing about it, I
started to discover that like basically,
you know, if you think of like how how
you define a person in general. Um,
as humans, we we tend to define people
by their choices, by their actions. Um,
but then what motivates their actions?
Well, often it's how they feel. And in
what what motivates how they feel about
certain things and it's their perception
of what's valuable and what's not. And
so that's kind of how I drilled down to
to this idea that essentially what we
are is just an aggregation of what we
choose to value in this world. If I
value money more than anything else,
that will come to define me through my
actions, my behaviors, what I invest my
time and attention into. If I value
family, um that will define who I am
because everything else will flow from
that.
Yeah. Yeah, the thing that I find
interesting about values is people often
act as if they are empirical truths.
Like money is valuable or family is
valuable and they don't realize that it
was a choice often handed to them by the
way they grew up, their parents, what
their parents instilled in them. And so
stepping back and recognizing that all
of this is a choice that you can
consciously decide what you're going to
value.
And I'd love to hear your thoughts on
how the process works of deciding to
value something. So, if somebody finds
themselves in a place where they feel
totally [ __ ] up, they don't like who
they are, and they buy into this notion
that, okay, a lot of this is being
driven by values,
how do they actually change that?
Yeah, it it's funny because I'm not a
huge fan of a lot of like kind of the
typical self-help tropes, but the answer
to this question I think is kind of
classic visualization, but it's not the
visualization that we usually hear
about. So, what I talk about in the book
is that you like let's say let's say I'm
just really superficial and I value
money more than anything. Like I've got
like a fleet of yachts and it's it's all
I care about, you know, um and then
something happens in my life and I
realize that that's pretty superficial.
I should like grow up a bit and you know
value something else. And it's not as
simple as just deciding. Like we've all
had that experience in our lives where
we wish we cared about something that we
don't or vice versa. we wish we didn't
care about something that we do. And you
can't just stop. Um, and so the the
process that I describe in the book is
that essentially before you can commit
to a new value, you kind of have to like
try them on. Like like it's like going
to a store and trying on a bunch of
pairs of clothes. Um, and the way you
try on a new value is you need to sit
down and and visualize. And you can even
write it out if you want, but it's like,
let's say all I care about is my fleet
of boats and uh and I want to try on a
new value um like charity or something.
I have to sit down and start asking
myself, what would it mean for my life?
What would it mean for me as a person if
I didn't value those boats anymore? Um
and that's a very hard question. It it
really it messes us up because we
realize that a lot of our relationships
would probably fall apart. a lot of our
business commitments would probably fall
apart. Um, a lot of our understanding of
ourselves would be shaken up or or
questioned. And it's a very difficult
thing to ask. Um, and so, you know, most
of the times when you see visualization
taught in the self-help industry, it's
like they take a guy who wants a fleet
of boats and they say, "Visualize a
fleet of boats. Now go get it." And it's
like, "No, no, no. What you need to do
is take a guy who wants a fleet of boats
and say, "Visualize not wanting a fleet
of boats. What would that say about you?
Who would you be if that thing you
always desired was not your desire
anymore?"
Yeah, that to me is really interesting.
And you went through a pretty cool
moment like that where you said
ultimately this all comes down to
choices. And for a long time in your
life, you just always assumed you were
going to be a musician. That was like
where you were headed. And then
choosing to do the writing instead. And
the the thing that really interested in
me in that was you said there was a
period of mourning.
Yeah.
Why is there a period of mourning? You
know, what's going on as we reshape
ourselves?
So, my background is is a little bit
Buddhist and I subscribe to the belief
of of no self essentially that that our
conception of who we are is just kind of
this arbitrary imagined thing in our
brain. And so I think of our
relationship with ourselves as being a
basically functioning the same way as
like our relationship with another human
being. Um so when something when you
lose a part of yourself, so I spent
pretty much all my my early life wanting
to be a musician. That was my ambition.
It was my hobby, my passion. It's how I
spent all my time. And I went to music
school and I just got the [ __ ] kicked
out of me and I was like, "Oh, this is
not going to work anymore." And the
process of letting go of that value was
was very much similar to like a breakup.
Like it felt like losing a girlfriend or
losing a friendship. Like this thing
that gave all this meaning and emotion
to my life was now unavailable to me.
And whenever you you lose something like
that, you go through the same emotional
process, which is that a pro that
process of grieving or mourning. Because
the same way, you know, a breakup leaves
you grieving this beautiful thing in
your life that no longer exists, when
you lose an important value or an
important part of yourself, you also
grieve this beautiful thing that defined
your life and no longer defines it.
Yeah. that I think is um it's such a
critical thing to understand how your
identity begins to get tied up in all of
this and I think a lot of this hinges on
um what you talked about right off the
top which is how we define success. So
how do you help people in that so that
they don't succumb to a trap. Um, I know
you're the example that you gave in in
one of your articles I thought was so
hilarious, which is the being driven,
being ambitious towards something
without taking a moment to reflect on
the morality of what you've decided to
value. And you said, take Hitler, who's
one of the most driven people and has
had this tremendous impact,
um, but was a psychopath. Yeah.
So, walk us through like
you you go pretty into like how we can
sort of reason our way to really having
a base understanding. I've heard you
talk about Kant and like morality at
like a really deep level.
So, how do we begin to to get to a base
level of like, okay, now I'm going to
stack my belief system, my values on top
of this base.
Sure. Um, just a little background on
the Hitler thing for our viewers.
You think you need to clarify? I don't
understand. No, I've I've wanted for so
long I've wanted I I had this idea with
a friend. We got drunk and went
paintballing and and I
as you do.
Yeah. Where most my ideas come from. And
uh and I was talking to him. I was like,
you know, would be amazing if if you did
like a if you did like a Tim Ferris
style podcast with like a fake Hitler.
And you're like, so Adolf, what's your
morning routine? You know, like how do
you rally the troops? How do you inspire
millions of people? It it would just be
this beautiful satire of kind of like
like focusing on that point of like
if so if you're not improving yourself
for the right reasons, you could be
damaging yourself. You know that the why
behind everything everything you try to
improve or everything that you're driven
towards is is more important than
actually you know how far you get. So
for me it's it's I I see a very direct
connection between
self-improvement and ethics. Um I think
if you if you dig deep enough into these
questions of of what growth means or
what improvement means you inevitably
run into
what is better period what is better or
worse period. What makes a better life?
What makes humanity better? Um, and so
it it's my goal has always been I I
never want to be that guy on stage who's
like, "This is what you should do. This
is how you do it. Here's my five-step
method, blah blah blah." You know, I I
want to be the guy who who doesn't I
don't want to give answers. I want to
give better questions. I want to help
people sort through these questions in
themselves because ultimately
the these questions around values are so
personal. there's there's no way for me
to answer any individual without
inserting my values onto them. And when
you do that, you rob them of the ability
to choose what matters for themselves,
choose their own meaning in their life.
Um, so for me, it's just it's all about
just pointing people in the right
direction, pointing out, you know,
little hypocrisies or little like kind
of paradoxes and and trying to steer
them towards um finding their own
answers.
So, give me some of those better
questions then. What should we be asking
ourselves?
Um,
well, you know, the the the classic
thing is always like, you know, write
down a list of goals or whatever. I I I
would go past that. I'd say, you know,
write down your goals and then ask
yourself, why do I want each of these
goals? What would it mean in my life if
I accomplished these goals? Um,
similarly, you know, a common exercise
is like write down things you're
grateful for. Um,
ask yourself why are you grateful for
them? what would happen to your life if
you didn't have them? I mean, that
that's the crazy thing is that a lot of
a lot of times the things we're most
grateful for are actually
the things that we're all [ __ ] up
about. You know, it's like it's if you
had asked me uh uh when I was
um you know, in one of like I I had a
series of very dysfunctional
relationships. I was happy as a pig and
[ __ ] in the middle of those, you know, I
would be like, "Oh, my girlfriend is the
most most beautiful thing." you know,
and it's like, no, dude, like you're I
was a mess. Um, and so we we it's not
just about questioning uh, you know, the
bad things in our life, you know, like
why did this painful thing happen? You
need to question the good things as
well. Like why why does this feel good?
Is it does it feel good for a good
reason? Um, because there are a lot of
things that feel good that are actually
hurting you.
Yeah, that's one of the things that I
really want to dive into is so how do we
begin to establish what we think is
good? What does it mean to be better?
Um,
and you come to this from an ethical
place and I know that you don't want to
like direct people too much and say
believe this or whatever, but what are
some jumping off points? Like is it to
go read philosophy? You said that you
approach life as a Buddhist. Like
how can people begin to build that
framework for themselves? Cuz what what
I'm really trying to get to is I feel
like you have to have a base belief of
some kind upon which things stack. But I
don't think people think about that.
Yes.
And even just pointing them in a
direction of of how to start begin
defining that for themselves I think
would be super helpful.
Yeah. So for me I found that uh I talk
about Kant in the book. Um I was very
inspired by Kant's moral philosophy.
Basically he has this principle called
the formula of humanity which is
essentially it's so simple but it kind
of explains everything. He says that
always act in such a way that you never
merely treat people a person as a means
but always as an end.
Um and what that means is like don't use
people you know like anything you do uh
the whole point of what you do what you
do like the end goal of what you do
should always be a person whether it's
yourself or somebody else. So, like if
you're like kind of misleading somebody
or or just saying something to somebody
just to get them to like, I don't know,
give you some money or, you know, make
them like you a little bit. Um,
you know, under that principle, like
that's that is not growth. That is not
success. um any basic stuff like lying,
cheating, stealing, like all of those
are examples of using people as a means
to some other end rather than treating
the person as an end in of themselves.
Um so I I when I came across that
principle, it just for me it kind of
blew me back on just how universal and
and powerful and useful it was. Um
because in and you know I spent a lot of
time writing about dating and
relationships and and I I was coming
from a place where I, you know, my
philosophy around relationships was
always like the thing that screws
relationships up is treating people as a
means, is being transactional in your
relationships. Um, and so when I found
that con stuff, I was like, damn, this
dude gets it.
Yeah. No, it it is very interesting. And
if you had to um and and look, you've
urged people not to take you too
seriously and so I asked this question
knowing that but like um if you had to
define success in a sentence,
sure.
Um how would you define it?
I for me success means um
creating a life and creating a world
with better problems. That's
interesting. That reminds me of a quote
of yours. I'm going to paraphrase, but
um if you want purpose in your life, the
most important thing you need to do is
answer honestly the following question.
What is your favorite flavor of [ __ ]
sandwich?
Which I thought was absolutely
phenomenal. That is the absolute right
question. But what do you mean by that?
Uh it's basically anything you pursue
like our mind plays this little trick on
us which is uh when we want something
our our our brain only shows us the good
side of it. It doesn't show the sacri
the sacrifice required for it. Um and
everything every experience you have in
life there is a [ __ ] sandwich part of
it. You know there's there's everything
has its associated problems. Um but our
brain doesn't think about that when
we're pursuing it. And so uh for me like
one of the most powerful heruristics is
to simply instead of thinking about what
benefits I want uh in my life I I try to
think about what problems do I want in
my life. Um you know something as simple
as like you know people might see this
show and they're like a damn I wish I
had a badass show like that on YouTube.
You know it's like they don't understand
like there's a whole crew here. There's
logistics. there's like waiverss you got
to get like clear through lawyers and
all all sorts of crap. And it's like
those are the problems you chose, you
know, those are the problems that you
wanted to have. Um, and that's why it's
a successful show. It's not just because
it's like, oh damn, having a show would
be awesome, you know, like it's easy to
just want something.
So yeah, your whole concept around
struggle I think is really powerful. Um,
you talk really interestingly about
emotions in the book. you go into the um
Newton's uh emotional laws which I
thought were really interesting.
Why is it so important especially as it
relates to willpower to understand your
emotions to leverage them?
Um but at the same time when you talk
about emotions there's an inherent sense
of like don't always trust your
emotions.
Sure.
So untangle this emotional knot for us.
emotions are are are
messy for a lot of reasons, but but one
of the the key things that I talk about
is
I use I use this analogy of a car. If
your consciousness is a car, um you have
two brains in it. You have a feeling
brain and a thinking brain. And most
people's assumption is that the thinking
brain is the responsible one driving.
And the feeling brain is like the bratty
little kid in the passenger seat
screaming and pointing at stuff out the
window. And it's like it's the job of
your thinking brain to like keep two
hands on the wheel and be like, "Shut
up. Shut up. Trying to drive here." You
know, and it's as a culture, we look at
anybody who fails to control their
impulses or their emotions um as
somebody as somebody who's just
fundamentally failing
to drive their own car. Um, we see it as
a failure of willpower and discipline.
But the truth is, if you if you dig into
all the psychological literature, it's
the feeling brain is actually driving
the car. And he's a little bit crazy.
He's like I I compare him to like an
angry boyfriend who refuses to stop for
directions. Like he just wants to go
wherever he wants to go and he's not
going to listen to anything. And the
thinking brain is actually in the
passenger seat. Like our conscious mind
is a passenger in our own behavior who
has deliluded himself into thinking that
he's driving even though he's not. And
what I talk about is that that the power
of the thinking brain is that we get to
draw the map. The thinking brain gets to
decide what what the lay of the land is.
So even though we don't totally have
control over uh
what's pushing us forward, our actions,
our emotions, all those things, we do
have control over the meaning and the
interpretation of those actions and
emotions. And so what I talk about is
that to develop a real sense of control
in your life to feel that feel a sense
of self-discipline, it's not about
beating your emotions in the into
submission because that that just causes
greater neuroticism and compulsion. The
trick is is that you got to get the two
brains to talk to each other. Um and and
it's hard because they speak different
languages, you know? So, it's instead of
like just trying to get your feeling
brain to shut up, you need to ask your
feeling brain, "Well, how does this make
you feel?" You know, it's like, "Oh, how
how does waking up at 5:00 a.m. and
going to the gym feel?" And the feeling
brain be like, "Oh, that feels awful."
Like, why would you ever do that? And
and then the thinking brain needs to be
like, "Okay, okay, that's okay." You
know, I hear you. Um,
but why does it feel bad? You know, what
about 6:00 a.m.? feeling brain's like,
"Well, that's not as bad, you know, and
it would feel nice to work out, I guess,
you know, and so you it becomes this
like negotiation between the two sides
of yourself." And um and there are a lot
of like kind of mental tricks to coax to
like kind of work with your emotions to
leverage your emotions um and get get
the feeling brain pointed in the
direction you want it um rather than
just fighting it for your entire life.
Yeah, I love that. I want to go farther
on that. So, um, going back to the [ __ ]
sandwich, the whole idea of like what
are the things that you actually want to
struggle with?
Yeah.
Um,
how do we like think of willpower in
terms of aligning with the the things
that are hard that you enjoy? And I
think that your own example of I thought
I wanted to be a musician, but writing
was the thing that made me lose track of
time. Like I I feel like that does a
great job of addressing this.
Yeah. I think
there are things in our lives where we
don't even I I think the things that we
tend to be passionate about, we don't
even realize we're passionate about them
because they seem so normal and obvious
to us. So for instance, to use to use
the music and the the writing example, I
remember when I was in in music school,
I was practicing, I played guitar, so I
was practicing like six hours a day just
beating my head against the wall trying
to learn all these different songs and
stuff and I just I hated it. It was a
grind and it it felt like a a job I was
supposed to do. And I remember actually
right before I quit, I uh there was a
there was a kid in the program who was
like, you know, he was an all-star. Like
he everybody knew he was going to make
it, you know. Um and it's funny today I
think he has two or three Grammys. But
um so like I found him in the cafeteria
and I sat down with him and I'm like,
"Oh man, like I don't know. Like how do
you can you give me some advice, man?"
He's like, "Yeah, sure. What's going
on?" I'm like just how do you practice
this much? like I'm practicing like 6
hours a day, you know, how much are you
practicing? And he's like, "Yeah, 6
hours a day." And I'm like, "But yeah,
but how do you like stay motivated? How
do you like what's your warm-up like?"
You know, like how do you how do you
schedule your practice time? And he's
just looking at me like I'm speaking
Cllingon. Like he's he's like, "What are
you talking about? Like I just practice.
Like I always practice. Like what?" It
didn't even compute for him. And then I
was like, "Okay, I I should probably
quit." Um,
so jump ahead like five, six years, id
started blogging and I would go to these
like internet marketing conferences and
stuff and people would start coming up
to me and they're like, "Oh man, I love
your blog, man. Like your articles are
they're like 10, 20 pages long. You're
posting like multiple each week." And
I'm like, "Yeah, thanks." They're like,
"Man, it's incredible." So, uh, you
know, what's your writing regimen like?
like how how do you get yourself
motivated? You know, he starts asking me
all these questions and I'm like looking
at him like what are you talking about?
Like I just write, you know, I just sit
down and write, you know, I don't even
have to think about it. And uh and it
kind of like rung a bell in my head of
like, wait a second, like that's that's
that's something that's like a that's a
signal that there's something special
about this because for whatever reason,
what seems to cause other people a lot
of stress and pain comes easily to me.
And what causes me a lot of stress and
pain, you know, came easily to to the
guy who did make it through music
school. Um, and so I realized that it's
it's not about like grit or willpower or
just like wanting it enough. It it's a
lot of it too is just we're all
massochists a little bit, you know, like
we all there's some pain in the world
that we all it gets us off a little bit
and I found mine and uh and so yeah, I
just you just you just keep hitting that
[ __ ] like you just keep going. And um I
think people when they're when you're so
focused on pleasure and and pleasant
rewards, you don't actually get to that
question. you don't actually get to
like, yeah, what's what's that pain that
like actually kind of gets me going, you
know, and cuz we all have it and that
that's that's the sweet spot when you
can find it.
Yeah, that's really interesting. I love
how much you um sort of orbit around
emotions and how people can really get
in connection with what using my own
language would be sort of the
neurochemical reality of what you're
doing.
Um, walk us through the the three um
Newton's three laws of emotions. I found
these to be really really interesting.
Speaking of gravitational pull,
I've always found Newton's life super
fascinating because not only was he like
one of the smartest guys ever, but when
you read about his life, like he was a
total headcase. Like had a very
traumatic childhood, suffered a lot of
abuse, and just was very antisocial and
emotionally dysfunctional his entire
life. Um, and so I thought it would be
really cool to kind of use him and his
life as an example to demonstrate a lot
of these topics that we're talking
about, you know, in terms of uh,
identity, growth, self-discipline,
etc. And so I took his three laws of
motion and I I basically just created
emotional analoges of those. So the
first one was uh um, for every action
there's an equal and opposite emotional
reaction. And this is basically just the
idea that every emotion is simply a a
response to to either pain or the
absence of pain. Um so when you remove
pain from life a positive emotion
emerges in reaction and and if you add
pain into life a negative emotion uh
emerges. Um the second one
so the second one if I remember right
was
our selfworth equals the sum of our
emotions over time. So you could even
you you might even say like identity
equals our our uh emotions over time. So
basically let's say something traumatic
happens in your childhood. Um that that
pain early on in your life causes a lot
of negative emotions. And one of the
things that I talk about is that anytime
we feel an emotion, it compels us to to
do what I call equalizing, which is um
like if I'm angry at you, I'm going to
continue to be angry at you until I
either get, you know, retaliate or you
apologize. Like something needs to
happen to make that anger go away. There
needs to be some sort of like
equalization between us. And if there is
no equalization, that anger just kind of
simmers and sits there um forever. And
one of the reasons why childhood traumas
are so debilitating for people is that
essentially these extremely painful
experiences occur to our feeling brains
while our thinking brains are still
undeveloped and don't know how to
explain or create meaning around that
pain. So let's say something really
painful happened to me now. I'd be like,
"Oh, well, you know, he meant well and
you know, [ __ ] happens or whatever." But
if I'm like a 5-year-old, my explanation
for it only gets as far as like I'm a
bad I'm a bad boy. I'm a bad person and
the world hates me, you know, like
that's and that will stick um because it
doesn't get equalized and it'll stick
for the rest of my life. And the problem
is is that we forget that that painful
thing happened. So, we just kind of go
through life with this uh feeling of
inferiority and and pain that lingers
that we can't really put an explanation
to or explain away. Um, and so the
process of therapy is basically
unraveling a lot of our experiences
until we get back to that original
experience. And with our adult thinking
brain, we can now put meaning to that
pain that is helpful to us essentially.
Um so that's the second law is that our
identity is is the sum of our emotions
over time. Um and then the third law is
uh our identity will continue to be our
identity until new experience acts
against us. So to use the music school
example um I was a musician. I would
introduce myself as a musician. And then
I got to second semester of music school
and um and had my ass handed to me and
suddenly I'm like, "Oh [ __ ] I'm not a
musician anymore, you know, and now I
have to go around and it's like I'm not
a musician. I don't know what I am." But
it it required there was some new
contrary experience that was required um
to create that shift within me. And uh
and this is why identity change by
definition needs to be painful and
uncomfortable
because if it's not painful or
uncomfortable, uh nothing's changing,
nothing's shifting. There might be a
perception of a change, but ultimately
the only way our values change is that
uh life knocks us on our ass a little
bit and causes us to question everything
we understand.
Yeah. The whole process of um losing an
identity, mourning that, trying to find
or create uh a new sense of self, I
think is uh one very misunderstood.
Yeah.
Um and two, really, really critical.
You talk about people breaking away and
quote unquote finding themselves in a
moment of crisis. Walk us through that.
And I'd love to hear if that's what you
were doing. You're so well traveled.
Yeah.
60 plus countries. speak three
languages. Was that a part of that
redefinition for you? Were you seeking
experience? Like how do you advise
people who are they don't know? I don't
know if I'm a writer. I don't know if
I'm a musician. I don't know what [ __ ]
sandwich I enjoy. Like
you know, how do you help people through
that process?
I think there's an exploration phase. Um
because it's it's if you have this
identity, you have this perception of
who you are and then suddenly that's
yanked away from you. There's kind of
just this void there. Um, and so I think
there needs to be an exploration to find
basically find your [ __ ] sandwich
essentially. And uh
um and you it's it takes time. It takes
patience. And I think there probably the
most helpful thing you can do is just be
okay with not knowing.
Let's talk about building resilience.
You said something early that I found
really interesting, which is that you
have a relationship with yourself the
way that you have with somebody else.
Yeah. which is really fascinating. Tell
me about that. Like what do you mean by
that? And and then like the whole notion
of I forget the exact word you used but
you said I approach this like a
Buddhist. The self is an illusion. I
don't think you said that but it was
like it made me feel that way.
Yes. Yes. Yes. I I said it's an
arbitrary construct which Yeah.
illusion. Um
I think uh so our relationship with
ourselves like essentially what
self-esteem is or self-worth is
basically let me back up for a second.
The feeling brain so the thinking brain
thinks in terms of like logic, cause and
effect, correlations, things like that.
The feeling brain thinks in terms of
importance.
um it thinks in terms of values. So some
things are very valuable and worthy of
our of being pursued and other things
are very very not valuable and they're
they should be avoided. Um
and the feeling brain kind of designates
you know almost a value score for
everything every experience every
potential experience that we we can
consider including ourselves. So our
idea of what our self is is just another
idea. The same way um you know being
living in New York is an idea and I
there is a certain value I place on that
and that that idea has logical
connections to all sorts of things that
who I am as Mark Manson is simply a
constructed idea in my mind and as a
constructed idea my feeling brain has
either positive or negative valuations
and feelings for for
Mark Manson. Um when people have a low
valuation of themselves, when they have
when their feeling brain thinks that
their identity is not valuable and and
have negative emotions about it, uh we
call that low self-esteem. And when our
the idea of our self h our feeling brain
has a high valuation of it and has
positive feelings for it, we call that
high self-esteem. And so a lot of like
therapeutic work for many decades was
kind of almost obsessed of like just
trying to get people people's this
relationship between your feeling brain
and your conception of your identity to
get it to get the needle to move from
negative to positive. Um because there
are all sorts of you know positive
repercussions of that. Um but ultimately
the your your concept of yourself is
built out of um the narratives that we
create out of our experience. So all of
the experiences that I've had or all the
experiences that you have, you know,
your idea of Tom is just this vast
collection of uh narratives that you've
constructed around your own experiences
and it's layer on top of layer on top of
layer on top of layer and your feeling
brain has a certain you know veilance
for those experiences. Um, and so if you
want to change how you feel about
yourself, you have to start peeling back
those layers of narrative and and start
getting down into the deepest earliest
ones because those are often the most
impactful and influential.
Well, you can't leave us with just that.
So, how do we begin peeling back those
layers, man? Like, I'm so with you on
that. and the way that people construct
their sense of self and beliefs and
values and it's like this just crazy
rats nest of
unidentified unexplained
beliefs, feelings, reactions, long-held
wounds that have never been dealt with
from your childhood. I mean, it's
but but that act of peeling that stuff
back, I think, is also an act of
rewriting. So, it's like, ah, I've
identified this narrative. Now, what
narrative do I change it to? And so
going back to your driving analogy,
you've got this thinking brain whose job
is to basically rewrite the map of a
past experience.
How do you help people take control of
that? Or do you have thoughts around how
they can take control of that? Are there
like I I would say I have a very strong
thesis about whatever you rewrite like
the guiding principle should not be a
guiding principle of objective truth
because I think people are atrocious at
figuring out what is actually
objectively true. Sure.
So if you could that would be amazing
but since you can't focus entirely on
what's empowering. So using your
language what moves the needle to
something positive?
Yeah.
Do you have a guiding principle that you
tell people to utilize when thinking
about that rewriting process?
I think so. Everybody's a little bit
different and this is how I I see like
therapy, meditation, journaling, like a
lot of these therapeutic practices like
I see them. They're all different
versions of what you just said is like
peeling that layer back, looking at it,
being like, "Huh, maybe that's not true.
What What if this idea was true
instead?" Like trying on new uh
narratives and and and stories that
define ourselves. Um, so everybody, you
know, everybody kind of has their own,
you know, practice that will resonate
with them more. Um, but it's in terms of
like how to actually go about it. I
think the first step is to just decide
that you don't actually know who you
are. Again, it's the Buddhist thing.
It's like the self's an illusion. It's
an arbitrary construct that you've spun
up uh over the course of your life. And
so, it's just this thing. It's just this
idea. It's a subjective uh it's a
subjective idea and it can be anything
you want. Now, you don't that doesn't
mean you necessarily like want to become
delusional and decide that you're
Spider-Man and and you're going to be
president of the Ukraine. Like it's you
want to be you want to be tethered to
reality, but also understand that you
don't like you said, you never know for
certain who you actually are. You don't
actually know what's true. You don't
know if you're a good person or a bad
person. You don't know if you're a
musician or an author. I could label my
label myself anything. So, I think when
we we start to realize that how uh kind
of lose that certainty about who we are,
what we think we know about ourselves,
that kind of like it starts to loosen
the glue of that that ball, that ball of
yarn of stories that we've told
ourselves. Um, and once that glue is
loosened, you can more easily pull pull
threads out and and start to see like,
oh, well, yeah, that's that's definitely
not um, you know, that's probably not
the most helpful narrative that I could
create for myself. So, I guess I guess
that would be the second step. You know,
first step, lose the certainty. Second
step is to actually like pull on some of
these threads and then um, and then
question, you know, what if that wasn't
true? Like what if what if music school
didn't kick my ass? What if I just what
if I just didn't try hard enough? You
know, like could be true. What would
that mean about me? It's useful to sit
down and think think through those
things because it's by doing that
enough that you you start to stumble
upon epiphies and and like big
realizations about what you've been
telling yourself your whole life. We
have to understand that
our identities are are not logically
constructed. They are emotionally
constructed. And they are emotionally
constructed based on our feelings. And
they are they have an inertia to them.
To bring it back to the Newton's laws,
our identities have an inertia to them
that uh is extremely difficult to stop
or reverse. Um and you you definitely
can't do it just through logical
arguments or you know punishing
somebody. So, how the hell do we put
ourselves in those difficult situations?
Like, how do we seek them out? I think
uh
I think it's it's it's just a healthy
habit to develop the desire to challenge
yourself in in every sense, physically,
mentally, emotionally. Um, you know, one
thing I've
definitely started trying to do, um,
especially recently given like the
political climate that's been going on
is I seek out articles and news sources
that I disagree with. Um because I I see
the the bubbles that everybody's in and
and the tribal lines that everybody's
drawing and I am I'm horrified by it,
but I also want to try my best to not
succumb to that myself. And so, um yeah,
I read sources. I read books of things I
disagree with. And and it's and it
changes me. It it really does. It it
softens me. Um, sometimes I'll finish
the book and I'm like, well, I still
don't agree with them, but damn, I
respect them now. Like, that's a smart
person. Um,
and so that that that's one way I do it
intellectually. Uh, but I think it's,
you know, that carries over into all
areas of life. I mean, it's as simple as
um,
you know, if you go to the gym, it's
like challenge yourself to do something
new. take a class that, you know, like
my wife just at the age of 37 decided
she wanted to learn how to swim and
she's like mortified of it, you know,
but I'm like, "Hell yeah, go do it." You
know, like that's because it's not just
about swimming. It it's it's about just
developing that consistent habit of like
stepping into your discomfort.
I love that. Who was who was it that you
you quoted them? They said either to
their daughter or niece, it was a famous
writer, I think, um that the whole idea
of getting better at life is about
surrounding yourself with people that
disagree with you or don't think like
you think.
Yeah, I'm putting you on the spot here,
but I thought I thought that was such an
interesting idea about getting yourself
around disisconfirmation, getting
yourself around people that shake you
out of your cognitive biases. I think
that's really powerful, man. I I really
think in this book you're on to some of
the most fundamental and important
things that a human being can do to
change who they are. I think it is super
powerful and way extraordinary. I have
no doubt that the um author hat author
identity is a good identity for you. Um
where can people find you? Where can
they get the book?
So website is markmanson.net. There's
hundreds of articles there. Um encourage
people to check it out. uh book is
available everywhere. Um every store you
can imagine it should be there. So go
check it out. Um and I will be doing a
speaking tour um across US, Canada and
hopefully Australia and UK. Nice.
Um so you can learn about that. Go to
either go to my Facebook page which is
facebookarkmansonet
or markmanson.net/book-our.
Nice. All right. What's the impact that
you want to have on the world?
I want to
expand and I basically I just want to
challenge people.
I want to challenge people to find new
perspectives and to to keep I I think if
you look at what human progress is, it's
ultimately rooted in the the search and
the the discovery and the testing of new
perspectives and and taking the same
experience and rewriting the meaning
around it. And so, um, I see my work
very much as training brains to do that
better.
I like that a lot, my man. Thank you so
much for coming on the show. That was
absolutely extraordinary. Guys, if you
haven't already, be sure to subscribe.
And until next time, my friends, be
legendary. Take care,
brother. That was amazing. Thank you.
Good [ __ ]
What's up, impactivists? If you want to
acquire new skills or improve the ones
you already have, then you're going to
love this. As you know, a huge part of
my life is about acquiring skills that
have utility and exist in service of
something greater than myself. And that
is why I highly recommend Skillshare.
Skillshare is an online learning
community with over 25,000 classes
across more skills than you can imagine.
At Impact Theory, we've used Skillshare
for things like project management,
marketing analytics, and even for our
comic book. And today, Skillshare is
giving the first 500 people who click on
the link in the description two free
months to their entire library of
courses. That's 60 days access to
literally thousands of courses on
whatever topics you choose for no money
at all. You just have to click on the
link in the description below and join
the classes that work for you and you
will be in very good company as one of 7
million people on Skillshare. And should
you decide to stick around beyond your
free trial, an annual subscription to
Skillshare is less than $10 a month.
That's nothing for a skill that could
very well change your life. So, go ahead
and click on the link in the description
below to start acquiring those skills
today. And until next time, my friends,
be legendary. Take care. I want to
influence them. I want to get inside
your skin, inside your brain, and alter
how you look at the world. I think this
change in your perspective and how you
look and socialize and deal with people
will radically alter so many aspects in
your life.